[Single Card Discussion] Rhox War Monk

[jazzykat]

The card:
UGW
Creature-Rhino Monk
Life Link
3/4

Hot or Not?

Next to Tarmogoyf if you are playing the colors in an aggro meta is he near an auto include. I have been testing NLU after it took the top 2 slots of the GP. I have worked a meld of the decks based on my metagame and noticed that without good creatures to steal I would rather have some war monk action for my first 2/3 rounds facing burn/aggro/discard.

He is undoubtably situationally awesome but is he better than the alternatives (shackles, Werebear, Spell Snare?) to smacking around the aggro hordes and burn decks?

Let's keep the fact that he is a Rhino Monk out of this discussion because based on creature type he is an auto include...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It makes me want to play Shining Shoal and FoW in the same deck. Unfortunately, it's exactly the sort of creature that just ends up playing poor man's Goyf. It'd be interesting otherwise.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I pretty much have a hardon for this guy. I hate aggro control, but he makes their aggro matchup/burn matchup much better. I love big fat life gaining stuff, thus why my favorite card is Loxodon Hierarch

[Pinder]

I tried them out in Thresh, and outside of being a threat that pitches the Force, they were sort of lackluster. I think it has something to do with lifegain being the worst strategy ever. I think it's at least as good at what it does for its cost as Trygon Predator, but Predator probably does more relevant things, and also pitches to Force. I suppose you could board them to beat Burn or something, though. Ass of 4 makes it so they have to waste 2 spells to get rid of it, or risk invalidating a burn spell every turn while taking damage.

So, I guess my point is that Rhox War Monk is good if you somehow have trouble beating Burn, or something.

[Skeggi]

So, I guess my point is that Rhox War Monk is good if you somehow have trouble beating Burn, or something.

Or aggro decks with smaller creatures like Goblins and Merfolk; he's good against opposing Mongooses too (he's totally awesome against UGr Thrash if you play UGw Thresh).

I really like him, but to be real good he lacks a bit of size.

[Omega]

the biggest issues i had with him is that he is 3cc with 3 different colors.

If it was like trygon, i think i would play them in Threshold.

They do improve our MU against aggro (merfolk, elves and goblin). But being 3color, it is hard to get it down efficiently (mana denial is a problem)

Robert

[Bryant Cook]

I tried pitching this guy to EPIC two months ago. He's one of my favorite dudes at the moment. But unplayable because of Goyf.

[b4r0n]

I don't know if I'd say Rhox War Monk is unplayable. He can race almost every creature in the format (including a 6/7 Goyf), and he's a solid blocker against tribal aggro. The casting cost is a bit clunky though; I'd say that's its biggest weakness.

[Tacosnape]

Any threat that costs 3 mana in Legacy better have more than 3 power or do something a lot more awesome than just be a lifegaining beater.

[Volt]

If goyf weren't around, RWM would be about as playable as Burning Tree Shaman was b4goyf. I like the dude, tho.

[Peter_Rotten]

If goyf weren't around, RWM would be about as playable as Burning Tree Shaman was b4goyf. I like the dude, tho.

I hope you're saying that he is not too playable, right?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Burning-Tree Shaman was played competitively before the format rotation. Top 8'd at a couple GenCons, I think. 3/4 used to be a decent body size (the whole reason Werebear was so good was that 4/4 was larger than any other cheap creature outside of Negator and Shade), and throw in some keen ability like lifegain or making Top suck for your opponent and you're in business. Hell, Razor Golem was played in Angel Stompy, and that just had Vigilance.

It's a sign of what this format has come to that 3/4s aren't considered relevant unless they give you a card somehow. I don't think you could load a 3/3 with enough combat abilities to make it relevant these days. Fuck, people are dropping Nimble Mongoose. A fucking one mana 3/3 with Shroud, and it's getting dropped from decks perfectly designed to support Threshold for being too slow.

I fucking hate what this format has become.

[Volt]

I hope you're saying that he is not too playable, right?

He was definitely a second-tier creature, but BTS saw a fair amount of play. In particular, I recall he was pretty popular in European Red Thresh decks.

Anyway, I think this thread is in danger of becoming another goyfitorium, and that's not what I intended to happen.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In fairness, the question is "Is Rhox War Monk playable?"

It's hard to come up with an answer that isn't, "No, because of Tarmogoyf."

[Obfuscate Freely]

I've just about had it with you people blaming Tarmogoyf for making weak cards weak. A 3/4 for three mana has never been as good an investment as you're making it sound, especially for aggressive decks. This is because we can get three power out of a creature for much less than three mana. See: Rotting Giant, Watchwolf, Scab-Clan Mauler, Wild Nacatl, etc.

Rhox War Monk is a mediocre creature that will only really pull its weight if you can really use the lifegain. That makes it good against Zoo and Burn decks, Tarmogoyf or not, but those decks aren't enough of a metagame concern to really justify playing an otherwise lackluster dork.

[Volt]

I've just about had it with you people blaming Tarmogoyf for making weak cards weak. A 3/4 for three mana has never been as good an investment as you're making it sound, especially for aggressive decks. This is because we can get three power out of a creature for much less than three mana. See: Rotting Giant, Watchwolf, Scab-Clan Mauler, Wild Nacatl, etc.

Rhox War Monk is a mediocre creature that will only really pull its weight if you can really use the lifegain. That makes it good against Zoo and Burn decks, Tarmogoyf or not, but those decks aren't enough of a metagame concern to really justify playing an otherwise lackluster dork.

Deep breaths. I made no claim other than RWS would see about as much play as BTS used to.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I've just about had it with you people blaming Tarmogoyf for making weak cards weak. A 3/4 for three mana has never been as good an investment as you're making it sound, especially for aggressive decks. This is because we can get three power out of a creature for much less than three mana. See: Rotting Giant, Watchwolf, Scab-Clan Mauler, Wild Nacatl, etc.

All aggro creatures that Rhox War Monk beats because it's a 3/4.

Tarmogoyf is one of a few small, cheap aggro creatures that can roll over RWM, and the other examples I can think of are Nantuko Shade and Phyrexian Negator. The latter is more than a trade for the Monk. Otherwise you'd need a group assault of tribal creatures, or a few of Dragon Stompy's threats with Hellbent. It kills the half of Threshold's original ground team that couldn't be StP'd in combat, too. So it does seem fair after all to say that it's Tarmogoyf's ubiquity that would make this card unplayable in mid-range deck. Obviously a lot would depend on the playability of such a deck, but Rhox War Monk would otherwise be good in such a deck.

Dry your tears, you thermodynamic miracle you.

eta:

When your support for an argument that other cheap, aggro creatures making Rhox War Monk obsolete is a list of creatures, all of which RWM would kill in combat while gaining life, perhaps you should consider if you're being knee-jerk in your defenses of Tarmogoyf here, Alix. That was literally the worst argument I've ever seen you make. I invite you to rethink your position and realize that I'm right.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Deep breaths. I made no claim other than RWS would see about as much play as BTS used to.

Yeah, but the implication there is that BTS saw any play. Jack even brought up its success at GenCon, which he actually completely fabricated.

Go ahead and look it up. I'm sure you'll ship me a list of awful Threshold lists with BTS in them in place of better cards.

All aggro creatures that Rhox War Monk beats because it's a 3/4.

Yes, all of those creatures are beaten by a 3/4, but only in combat. My point is that they all deal exactly as much damage as a 3/4, but they cost between 33% and 66% as much mana. In aggressive-minded applications, this tells you that the more expensive cards are awful. Even in cases that efficiency as a damage source is not the most important metric, if the best you can say about your three-drop is that it can successfully go mano-a-mano with two-drops, there are probably more efficient ways to spend your resources. Besides, you're lamenting the fact that Tarmogoyf costs two, and will often be bigger than a 3/4, but Werebear pummels 3/4s, as well...

If Tarmogoyf made it harder for people to rationalize poor three-mana creatures like BTS, Troll Ascetic, and now Rhox War Monk, then I am happy to have it around. Those cards do not make the grade in modern Legacy, without or without Tarmogoyf.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, but the implication there is that BTS saw any play. Jack even brought up its success at GenCon, which he actually completely fabricated.

Guess what? Fuck you. Don't you dare fucking try to imply that I lied about shit. As I already mentioned, I was confusing it with several of the premier Legacy tournaments in Germany with draw upwards of 80 people, which is far more than the likely number of actual Legacy players at GenCon. The decks were similar, except one ran green for BTS, Kird Ape and Quirion Dryad.

Go ahead and look it up. I'm sure you'll ship me a list of awful Threshold lists with BTS in them in place of better cards.

Second at a 60-man online tournament.

Second at a 69-man German tournament.

Second at a 78-man online tournament.

Third at a 69-man German tournament.

Third at a 64-man German tournament.

Undefeated at the Legacy portion of Worlds 2007

5th at a 175-man German Open

4th at a 114-man Spanish tournament

But no, I'm an idiot, I forgot: No Threshold deck that the Hatfields aren't personally playing or haven't directly approved is any good, no matter what the results say. My bad.

And you fuckers call me arrogant.

Yes, all of those creatures are beaten by a 3/4, but only in combat. My point is that they all deal exactly as much damage as a 3/4, but they cost between 33% and 66% as much mana. In aggressive-minded applications, this tells you that the more expensive cards are awful. Even in cases that efficiency as a damage source is not the most important metric, if the best you can say about your three-drop is that it can successfully go mano-a-mano with two-drops, there are probably more efficient ways to spend your resources. Besides, you're lamenting the fact that Tarmogoyf costs two, and will often be bigger than a 3/4, but Werebear pummels 3/4s, as well...

You're right: RWM would suck in an aggro deck, and lose to Werebear. But then, the aggro decks can't run Werebear, and RWM would be for mid-range decks that are trying to stop aggressive strategies.

Think back, Alix. I know, if you try, you can remember a point in time where creatures fit into decks based upon the needs and strategies of the given deck.

If Tarmogoyf made it harder for people to rationalize poor three-mana creatures like BTS, Troll Ascetic, and now Rhox War Monk, then I am happy to have it around. Those cards do not make the grade in modern Legacy, without or without Tarmogoyf.

Considering that it sees significant play in Europe as a tag-along to Tarmogoyf, the idea that it would be unplayable with the only 2cc creature that reliably kills it without Threshold seems a little, shall we say, moronic.

RWM and BTS would both be quite playable in a Goyfless format.

[Volt]

@Alix: Come on now. BTS got played in Red Thresh decks which won or placed in numerous tournaments, and you damn well know it. I know you never liked the card, but "I think people who played Burning-Tree Shaman were dumb" is not a relevant argument.

EDIT: Ninja'd!