Reaching the Density - Milling Strategies

[Jeff Kruchkow]

It would appear that wizards is loving on mill lately as yet another playable mill card has been printed and, as after every new good mill card is printed, I'm here to ask whether or not we have yet reached that critical density of good mill spells to allow it to become at least a tier 2 deck type in legacy.

To date for playable mill we have:
1cc:
Tome Scour
Memory Sluice
Extirpate(kinda)
Vision Charm

2cc:
Glimpse the Unthinkable
Brain Freeze(if you cast 1+ other spell it becomes good)

3cc:
Mind Funeral
Jace Beleren

4cc:
none yet

5cc:
Archive Trap
Haunting Echoes

I think that about covers the decent ones. That being said, while the deck isn't near as efficient as burn yet, it also has access to better support such as Force, Dark Confi, Phyrexian Arena and such goodies. Also, the fact that your opponent draws 1 a turn also helps.

Since I'll get a bitching at if I don't heres a list for reference:

4 Vision Charm
4 Tome Scour
4 Extirpate
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Brain Freeze
4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Mind Funeral
4 Jace Beleren
3 Archive Trap
3 Haunting Echoes
22 Lands

So, does mill have what it takes to enter at least mediocre deck status? Discuss.

[Tacosnape]

First of all, apart from everything else wrong with this, what good does Jace Beleren do you in a deck with absolutely zero ways to stop them from offing Jace at will? It's a bad draw spell at best.

Secondly, the answer's probably still no, despite the new Trap. It puts it a little closer to Turbo Mill being viable, but not close enough.

Although how hilarious would an opening hand of four Traps be if they led with a cracked fetchland?

To expand on all of this though. Mill needs to be better than Burn. Burn is dealing about 3 damage per card against a resource of 20. So each good burn spell is dealing 3/20, or 15%, of what it needs to do to win, excluding self-damaging decks, lifegain, etc.

Mill has to hit 53 instead of 20, though it's realistically lower as the longer the game goes, the less they have to mill. To get the same 15% on 53, each mill spell needs to be rolling 7.95. Adjusted for time, each mill spell needs to be hitting still over 7 cards apiece. At current, not many of them do this quickly.

[Apex]

I'm thinking that's why they made it 13.

But I guess you can add Twincast to that list like the Sanity Grinding deck in standard.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

First of all, apart from everything else wrong with this, what good does Jace Beleren do you in a deck with absolutely zero ways to stop them from offing Jace at will? It's a bad draw spell at best.

Secondly, the answer's probably still no, despite the new Trap. It puts it a little closer to Turbo Mill being viable, but not close enough.

Although how hilarious would an opening hand of four Traps be if they led with a cracked fetchland?

To expand on all of this though. Mill needs to be better than Burn. Burn is dealing about 3 damage per card against a resource of 20. So each good burn spell is dealing 3/20, or 15%, of what it needs to do to win, excluding self-damaging decks, lifegain, etc.

Mill has to hit 53 instead of 20, though it's realistically lower as the longer the game goes, the less they have to mill. To get the same 15% on 53, each mill spell needs to be rolling 7.95. Adjusted for time, each mill spell needs to be hitting still over 7 cards apiece. At current, not many of them do this quickly.

Jace is there to do 2 things. 1: let us both draw milling them faster and getting me more mill. and 2: if they attack him to kill him, its less damage aimed at me. Although hes kinda a filler.

Anyway, i have run the numbers and am fully aware of the difference in efficiency. However, other factors need to be taken into account.
First: many legacy decks (non aggro) run very low on threats meaning that milling threats away is far more meaningful. For example, tempo thresh runs 8 threats that stay around, milling 3-5 of them is a huge blow to them especially when paired with extirpate.
Second: while the 1cc mill spells do not meet the 7 card efficiency limit, glimpse, archive and especially echoes go far over this number to help even it out. In fact, echoes almost single handedly wins games if you can resolve it after a mill spell or 2.

And yeah, you are likely right in that mill is still bad, however, the deck is incredibly close, so you never know what will push it over the edge.

[morgan_coke]

Actually Taco, I'd say it's pretty close now.

Using your breakpoint of 8 cards, we'll combine Trap, Glimpse, and Brainfreeze (assume you cast in on their turn for 2, so we'll call it a six) and we have 12 spells with an average mill of 9.66 cards. You would need to resolve four-five of them to win on average. This is fewer than the number of spells burn has to resolve, but the CMC on the mill spells is also slightly higher.

I think the real question is does the bonus you get from being in blue offset the disadvantages you get from a slower clock and giving the opponent more graveyard resources to use before you kill them?

If Burn is an "all in aggro" approach to death by Sorcery and Instant, the Mill would be the "aggro-control" approach to that strategy.

The best solution might be something more similar to an FT shell, except with mill cards in place of the combo spells. Something like (and this is completely off the top of my head)

4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Brain Freeze
4x Tomb Scour

4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Spell Snare/Thoughtseize

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Vision Skeins
2x Words of Wisdom

4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
2x Unstable Geyser
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
3x Island

Sideboard
4x Pyroclasm
4x Submerge
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Pyroblast

[Otter]

I'm guessing that it's still not going to quite "get there," but if they print a few more cards at this power level over the next few years, I can see it happening. The card at least shows that Wizards is willing to try printing a legitimately powerful mill spell.

[ClearSkies]

Isn't Painter's Servant + Grindstone the best mill strategy right now?

The decklist above doesn't really have much answers for the creatures/permanents already in play either.

[ssilver]

I have been playing a mill deck in a random format (237 for those of you in-the-know), and in my searching for viable mill options I stumbled across Trade Secrets. Yes, this card is bad, however, in a mill deck like this that only needs ~4 of the win cards to resolve (and can even profit from your opponent going crazy with brain freeze) I think it could be useful. True, the card advantage is only 2 if your opponent plays wise and stops the chain, but if they continue, you can go through your deck till you find the 4 Archive Trap cards and just win, plus it cuts down on the amount of mill you have to play to win. Against combo it's suicide, but against other decks it is a pseudo instant-win if they continue the card chain. Just an idea, but check it out.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Isn't Painter's Servant + Grindstone the best mill strategy right now?

Thats like saying, "Isnt just playing one Fireball for 20 better than a deck full of burn?" Yes painterstone is really freakin good at milling people. On the downside, it folds to like, every piece of hate ever and if its your only win con, they just hold onto answers. The advantage of a deck full of mill is that it makes it possible for them to counter stuff and you just drop more mill and kill them.

[Aggro_zombies]

Thats like saying, "Isnt just playing one Fireball for 20 better than a deck full of burn?" Yes painterstone is really freakin good at milling people. On the downside, it folds to like, every piece of hate ever and if its your only win con, they just hold onto answers. The advantage of a deck full of mill is that it makes it possible for them to counter stuff and you just drop more mill and kill them.

So what happens if, say, the opponent sticks a Counterbalance against you? Or a Tarmogoyf? Or worse yet, both?

Turbo Mill is worse than Painter-Stone and Solidarity in many, many ways. Painter-Stone can go in any deck, is easily tutorable, doesn't require the deck to be built around it (allowing room for backup plans, or even a main plan with Stone as backup), and takes up very few slots. Solidarity has the advantage of being very hard to disrupt once it starts going off, and it is capable of keeping hate cards off the board for long enough to set itself up. This deck is like Burn, but it sets itself up to fail by going after a harder-to-deplete resource while not being as good at keeping the board clean. One Tarmogoyf and a Spell Snare or two is likely going to be able to go all the way against this deck and dropping mill cards for draw and protection, as m_c suggested, just draws the game out longer by diluting your "win condition."

Really, if you're set on doing it this way, Sanity Grinding and Twincast need to be in there, since Grinding hits for a lot in a deck like this and Twincast has a lot of general utility. It's still not a very impressive deck outside of casual circles, though.

[Otter]

Painter + Grindstone isn't a milling strategy, it could read "you win the game" or "target player loses 400 life" instead and nothing about it would change. I'm not saying that milling is good or better than painterstone decks, but calling painterstone milling is like comparing ANT to Tempo Thresh because they both win via dealing 20. Its stupid, pedantic, and of zero relevance to the discussion of the new card.

[Hanni]

After I read the OP, I was going to reply the same way Taco did. He beat me to the punch, but I'd like to clarify a bit more.

Rather than a resource of 20 life, the opponent has a resource of 60 cards. Of course, the initial 7 drawn drops it down to 53, and each card drawn skews the numbers a little more. Since burn as a turn 3-5 clock, lets for now (for an easy figure) assume that we are attempting to mill 50 cards from the opponent (this number can also average in mulligans). Decks that run alot of draw or cantrips also skews the numbers, so let's not take those into account just yet.

Tome Scour mills 5 cards for U. If we do the math, 50/5=10. In comparison with life totals, 20/10=2, so we're looking at Tome Scour being the same as Shock. With Vision Charm, your doing 1.6 damage for U. Glimpse does 4 damage for UB (solid). So on and so forth.

The only spectacular mill spell you have is the new Trap card, since most decks will search via Fetchlands, and 0cc for 13 mill is equivilant to 5.2 damage for 0 mana. This alone will not push the deck into competitive territory.

So, to me, this means that we're still pretty far off from this being comparable to Burn. In addition, Burn has the versatility of hitting creatures, like a Goblin Lackey, that need to be answered in order to race. Fundamentally, this strategy is just flawed in comparison.

Running non-mill cards seems counterproductive, unless it's simply Brainstorm as the only spell. You don't splash blue into Burn to create Counter Burn for a reason; its clock is slowed and it's power level is diminished. Why run Counter Burn when you can splash green guys and play Threshold. Same thing here.

They need to print a few more mill cards that are close enough in cost to mill ratio for this approach to be viable. If you insist on playing mill though, Grindstone/Painter might as well be in the list, since Grindstone on it's own gives you a solid mill engine should your 1-shot mill effects not go the distance, and the combo together is an autowin if unanswered. Plus, it gives you the option of SB Blue Blasts (maybe MD, but again, you'd be diluting your mill clock).

I'd say this would be the general direction to go with:

U/b Mill

Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
6 Island
1 Swamp

Creatures (8)
4 Painter's Servant
4 Street Wraith

Spells (33)
4 Brainstorm
4 Tome Scour
4 Vision Charm
4 Memory Sluice
1 Extirpate
4 Brain Freeze
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Archive Trap
4 Grindstone

Sideboard (15)
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
4 Chalice of the Void

Haunting Echoes is retarded. Burn doesn't play any 5cc burn spells, and Mill shouldn't play any 5cc mill spells. Mind Funeral and Jace Beleren are both crap. Memory Sluice and (2) Painter's is decent. Brainstorm and Street Wraith should help filter you enough. The rest of the deck, sans Painter, is devoted to the most cost efficient mill available (Grindstone aside, but meh, what you gonna do).

Still, seems much worse than Burn.

Anyway, i have run the numbers and am fully aware of the difference in efficiency. However, other factors need to be taken into account.
First: many legacy decks (non aggro) run very low on threats meaning that milling threats away is far more meaningful. For example, tempo thresh runs 8 threats that stay around, milling 3-5 of them is a huge blow to them especially when paired with extirpate.
Second: while the 1cc mill spells do not meet the 7 card efficiency limit, glimpse, archive and especially echoes go far over this number to help even it out. In fact, echoes almost single handedly wins games if you can resolve it after a mill spell or 2.

Your first point is completely flawed, and is more eloquently articulated in an SCG article I read a while back, although I forget the name of the article and the name of the author. Extirpate is a different story, but mill in general does not change a damn thing when it comes to getting rid of certain cards (in your case, win conditions).

[arebennian]

Mesmeric Orb?
2 turns = 6 cards minimum usually

[THEchubbymuffin]

Mesmeric Orb?
2 turns = 6 cards minimum usually

Horrible topdeck when compared to other spells.

[godryk]

I just find beautiful how 13*4=52 which is the number of cards left in a deck after drawing your seven and cracking a fetch. ¿Infernal Tutor or something? However, although blue burn is a cool idea it's hardly viable.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

After I read the OP, I was going to reply the same way Taco did. He beat me to the punch, but I'd like to clarify a bit more.

Rather than a resource of 20 life, the opponent has a resource of 60 cards. Of course, the initial 7 drawn drops it down to 53, and each card drawn skews the numbers a little more. Since burn as a turn 3-5 clock, lets for now (for an easy figure) assume that we are attempting to mill 50 cards from the opponent (this number can also average in mulligans). Decks that run alot of draw or cantrips also skews the numbers, so let's not take those into account just yet.

Tome Scour mills 5 cards for U. If we do the math, 50/5=10. In comparison with life totals, 20/10=2, so we're looking at Tome Scour being the same as Shock. With Vision Charm, your doing 1.6 damage for U. Glimpse does 4 damage for UB (solid). So on and so forth.

The only spectacular mill spell you have is the new Trap card, since most decks will search via Fetchlands, and 0cc for 13 mill is equivilant to 5.2 damage for 0 mana. This alone will not push the deck into competitive territory.

So, to me, this means that we're still pretty far off from this being comparable to Burn. In addition, Burn has the versatility of hitting creatures, like a Goblin Lackey, that need to be answered in order to race. Fundamentally, this strategy is just flawed in comparison.

Running non-mill cards seems counterproductive, unless it's simply Brainstorm as the only spell. You don't splash blue into Burn to create Counter Burn for a reason; its clock is slowed and it's power level is diminished. Why run Counter Burn when you can splash green guys and play Threshold. Same thing here.

They need to print a few more mill cards that are close enough in cost to mill ratio for this approach to be viable. If you insist on playing mill though, Grindstone/Painter might as well be in the list, since Grindstone on it's own gives you a solid mill engine should your 1-shot mill effects not go the distance, and the combo together is an autowin if unanswered. Plus, it gives you the option of SB Blue Blasts (maybe MD, but again, you'd be diluting your mill clock).

I'd say this would be the general direction to go with:

U/b Mill

Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
6 Island
1 Swamp

Creatures (8)
4 Painter's Servant
4 Street Wraith

Spells (33)
4 Brainstorm
4 Tome Scour
4 Vision Charm
4 Memory Sluice
1 Extirpate
4 Brain Freeze
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Archive Trap
4 Grindstone

Sideboard (15)
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
4 Chalice of the Void

Haunting Echoes is retarded. Burn doesn't play any 5cc burn spells, and Mill shouldn't play any 5cc mill spells. Mind Funeral and Jace Beleren are both crap. Memory Sluice and (2) Painter's is decent. Brainstorm and Street Wraith should help filter you enough. The rest of the deck, sans Painter, is devoted to the most cost efficient mill available (Grindstone aside, but meh, what you gonna do).

Still, seems much worse than Burn.



Your first point is completely flawed, and is more eloquently articulated in an SCG article I read a while back, although I forget the name of the article and the name of the author. Extirpate is a different story, but mill in general does not change a damn thing when it comes to getting rid of certain cards (in your case, win conditions).

Burn dosnt play any 5cc spells because no 5cc burn spell says deal 20 to a player. Haunting echoes singlehandedly will mill everything but basics almost every time. Mind funeral seems bad but given how few land most legacy decks run, it mills between 12 and 18 most often.
Also, if you remember that article, id like to read it.

[GreenOne]

You can also play Sanity Grinding and Twincast.

Twincast on the trap can be quite juicy.

[georgjorge]

Merchant Scroll could also fit in - the problem is that on turn two on the draw if they know you're holding the Trap, they can probably afford not to crack another fetchland. You can also tutor up Glimpse in those situations though (plus last-resort-stuff like Submerge, which combines nicely with milling).

[Van Phanel]

I'd say this deck wants Howling Mine more than anything. You get reloaded and it helps your plan by making you faster.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Burn dosnt play any 5cc spells because no 5cc burn spell says deal 20 to a player. Haunting echoes singlehandedly will mill everything but basics almost every time. Mind funeral seems bad but given how few land most legacy decks run, it mills between 12 and 18 most often.
Also, if you remember that article, id like to read it.

It would certainly seem like that would be the case, but take it from someone who has been haunting echoes'd many a time; There will still be plenty of stuff left in their library for them to kill you.