This is a deck I played more than a year ago, and I have recently decided to revisit this deck and see if it is still a viable deck, and what changes should be made.
Landstill was a hugely popular deck here in San Diego, and many advanced versions of the deck have seen play here. When Eternal Witness was printed, I thought about how nice it would fit into a deck that uses Standstill. The deck is designed to use Eternal Witness to recur Standstill and Pernicious Deed for the most part, although not missing land drops after third turn with a fetch land or returning a counter, when one is needed.
Today I worked on an updated version of the list and so far this has what I have come up with.
Land - 24
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Island
4 Poluted Delta
Creatures - 4
4 Eternal Witnesses
Search/Draw - 10
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Standstill
Removal - 9
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Naturalize
Counters - 12
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Remand
3 Stifle
Other - 1
1 Crucible of Worlds
Sideboard
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Ravenous Baltoh
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
I am revisting this, but the older version of the deck ran three P. Deeds and 1 or 2 Engineered Explosives. It ran Intuition over Fact or Fiction. It also did not have Remand.
Why Baloth? This seems bizzare in the extreme. To be frank, the 3/3/3/3/3 sideboard bespeaks of inadequate testing.
Remand? Why? Just to avoid UU? This would seem better as Memory Lapse, or Mana Leak.
Are four Witnesses supportable without a basic forest?
Did you even read my post, or did you just look at the deck list? To be frank, you seem like you didn't waste more than 2 seconds looking at my post, thus not reading it. Your post bespeaks of your inadequate intelligence to discuss this.Originally Posted by MattH
Baloths are run because of a few things. Mainly because burn is played heavily in my meta, and nothing says burn looses more than Baloth/Witness. Landstill was hugely popular when this deck was first built, and the Baloths helped hat match-up as well. Baloths also helped in the Goblins Match-up.
Remand had not been printed when the deck was first played, but drawing extra cards with the deck that can recover that spell with Witness seems nice.
I havent playtested so much of this is speculative:
Why is Eternal Witness superior to Regrowth in a 3 color build? I would think the mana requirements of Witness would outweigh any benefit gained from the extra beats and chumpage.
Have you thought about maybe a second manland to have some insurance against needling?
I would up the fetch count a couple to get maximum manipulation of Brainstorm.
info.ninja
What's up with the singelton Crucible of Worlds and no way to find it?
Also, if you're in green already, wouldn't Life from the Loam merit attention, since it's effectively uncounterable and can't be destroyed, (or hit by your own Deed) meaning you don't have to waste countermagic protecting it?
Additionally, I agree with all of what xsockmonkeyx said, unless Eternal Witness beats is a big part of your gameplan.
TEAM DRAGONFORCIA-
Ghost ridin' the whip like we invented that shit.
TEAM UNICORN
We're going for number four!
I like the deck much more than most of the landstill decks I could see. Except that I would not really call it "landstill".
The main threats for your deck :
- pithing needle on deed
- meddling mage on deed
That why I would recommand to play engineered explosives, even if it looks suboptimal compared to deed. I would cut naturalize and edict too.
Remand is not really good when you don't plan to target yourself. You'd better play disrupt, if you want cantrip counters.
Your mana base is really fragile. Only 10 non basic green sources. That's pretty too much dangerous. Back to basics, blood moon are more and more present. Wasteland.
It looks like the black is only a light splash. No need to play 4*underground sea + 2*bayou. I would play only 1 of each, in order to add 2*wooded foothills and 2*forest. It means : +3 green mana providers, -1 blue mana provider and -2 black mana provider. (and a safe of 110$ by the way)
I agree to that life from the loam looks better than crucible in this deck. Run just 2 life from the loam, it can also play a role as a tutor if you have a witness in hand...
I would also appreciate the addition of 1 or 2 wolrath's stronghold, that's a very strong card to my mind.
I think it's a bit too early to discuss the sideboard.
Volrath's Stronghold seems awfully bad in a deck with no creatures...
On the other hand, Cabal Pit might be useful as recurable creature kill.
TEAM DRAGONFORCIA-
Ghost ridin' the whip like we invented that shit.
TEAM UNICORN
We're going for number four!
Are you blind ? This decks plays the best creature ever to raise dead with stronghold.
After side, if we keep the baloth in, it's the second best creature to play with stronghold.
In my last post, instead of engineered explosives that can be needled too, maybe crime/punishment... even if crime can't be played. (or maybe let's play 1 random tundra and windswept heath instead of wooded foothills. As I'm proposing a lot of change, I'm going to write down a list.
Land - 25
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
2 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Savannah
2 Windswept heath
4 Polluted Delta
Creatures - 4
4 Eternal Witnesses
Search/Draw - 11
4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Standstill
Removal - 8
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Crime/Punishment
Counters - 10
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Mana leak
Other - 2
2 Life From The Loam
Sideboard - 15
4 Null rod (anti-grave hate, anti-equipements, anti-moxen/petals/LED, maybe damping matrix is better here even if it doesn't deal with the mana producers)
3 Cabal Therapy (anti-combo)
4 Chalice of the void (anti-combo or burn, to enter instead of deed)
4 Engineered Plague (anti gob and elves - maybe hailstorm is better agaisnt gob and we don't need any side against elves, the problem of plague is that it prevents you from doing 3+ deed)
The curve is quite nasty, but the turn2 counterspell and the turn 3 deed (activating at turn 4) are quite relevant to help you face the most aggro decks.
Curve :
0 : ____ (4 : FoW)
1 : ____ (4 : brainstorms)
2 : ____________ (12 : counters + life + standstill)
3 : ____ (8 : deeds + witnesses)
4 : ___ (3 : FoF)
X : ____ (4 : c/p, often bigger than 4)
Against gob, that may not be enough, because of its mana disruption, but FoW is also an answer to turn1 lackey or vial, then counterspells can help too).
I cant help but compare this to BHWC Landstill. And in doing so, I've found a few important things.
-You need an StP equivalent. I'd recommend Ghastly Demise
-4 FoW, 4 Counterspell is a pretty strong counterspell package on its own
-By dropping the Witness-Stronghold-Therapy plan, you open up a ton more slots, which can be filled with cards that have synergy with the rest of the deck
So from Mav's list, I'd go:
-2 Stronghold
+2 Wasteland
-4 Witness
+4 Ghastly Demise
-3 Mana Leak
+3 Diabolic Edict
-2 Crime/Punishment
+2 Naturalize
and then some mana base tweaking.
Also, by the way, I'm not sold on LftL over Crucible. A competent player can pilot Landstill with both Crucible and Deed easily.
That said, I like the fact that this has a more stable mana base than BHWC Landstill. But I would personally like to make it completely UGB: how often does Crime actually get played, and to what effect?
Last edited by Mirrislegend; 12-20-2006 at 07:32 PM.
Referring to the art on Stasis:
Eternal Witness is another Man-Land sort of. It gets dropped and brings back Standstill, forcing people break Standstill and get another three cards. Relying on just Mishra's to win won't work.
You made this same arguement against the BHWC Landstill deck didn't you? Crucible isn't an intricate part of the deck. If you get it great, if not just worry about winning. You don't want to miss draws. The BHWC arguement to why to run Crucible over LftL stands for this deck as well.
I use to play 3 P. Deeds and 2 E.Explosives. The Mana Base is not as fragile as the BHWC version, and because Eternal Witness can get back lands it is better off, specially since there are Stifles. Volrath's Stronghold is best in Braids or other LD type decks I've seen. As for Remand, I though it would work nice because the entire deck is designed to recur cards that are card advantage.
Actually this deck was created in the early stages of when BHWC was being refined. Nick and I play tested almost every day, and playing against the deck gave me ideas. Without the white there is a lack of target removal, but because many people were running non-targetable creatures at the time, I chose to rely on Deed and Explosives to wipe the board then Edict away anything with Regen. I did use to run Wasteland, and had forgot about that.
This deck while resembling BHWC Landstill, actually has a difficult match up against it because of N. Monistery, but better match-ups against other decks because of the recuring Deeds.
But the recurring Deeds plan is tremendously weak! It requires a fragile creature, a non-basic land, and its own mana investment. See if the changes I wrote will work. It basically helps shift your deck to a 3 color version of BHWC, which is a good thing, given BHWC's power and resiliency (when competently piloted).
Referring to the art on Stasis:
How about Undead Gladiator as a draw engine/ extra beats? They recur on their own and have some synergy with loam because of their cycling ability.
Also: -2 Duals, +2 Fetch if you havent already. How about a basic Forest?
info.ninja
Recurring the Deeds is stronger than you think.
Your suggestions with the exception of Ghastly Demise was already part of the deck.
Don't mention trying to shift this to a 3 color version of the BHWC Deck. I am a member of BHWC and this deck was originally designed off of the 4 color version. The only difference was to run the 4 Witnesses.
Recurring the Deeds is also slower than waiting for the supply of Wii's at Gamestop and EB to catch up with the demand. The plan is too slow against Goblins (and will hit your own Plagues unless you just blast Piledriver and smaller), useless against High Tide, and against Threshold they'll just Needle your Deed and move on. So, um, what decks in the metagame were you planning on doing this against exactly? Affinity will curse your name and cry a lot, which is better than nothing, I guess.
LFTL is still better than Crucible in all Landstill variants running green. All arguments to the contrary are wrong. The mere existence of LFTL in your deck means never having to spend resources to save your kill conditions ever. Unless people are playing, like, Dissipate, or some shit.
I do like Witness in the deck, though. Thought about a Genesis? He's the 4/4 you're missing from 4C Landstill and he's late game Witness Frenzy. He also answers the question of what to pitch when you go over 8 cards, which happens a lot in all my testing (Although usually when this is happening I'm winning solidly anyway.)
I also like whoever has Crime//Punishment in their 4C Build. I've been running a single lone C//P in my 4C Build for ages now and it's bailed me out of more situations than I can count.
Yes, it is slow, and you use delay tactics to get to the point that you control the game. It is played very similar to 4c BHWC Landstill. Hitting your own Plagues is not too bad, as you have Witness. By the way, Goblins, Threshold, and Solidarity are not the only decks being played. the 9 removal get sideboarded out against Solidarity, which the match would suffer in the first game anyways, so why not just play it like the 4c BHWC version. Loss first game and win the next two.
You don't want to tie up mana that can be used for other things like edicts, deeds, facts, counters. Loosing spells even though you have witness in this deck is not wanted, just like the 4c BHWC. Also A one time thing that can be protected or recured if needed is best specially since it works when Stand Still is on the table. I don't think that it needs to be argued much more, but I and everyone that understands this is correct. Trust me it has been completly tested, and in Landstill decks, Crucible is far superior.
I ran a Genesis, but to often he would get removed, or I would draw him when I didn't want him. Baloth use to be a one of in the deck, and two in the side.
I like the last line. Apparently you're the end all authority on all things Landstill. I've been playing Landstill since Standstill was printed, and I don't take "Trust me" as a valid argument on any point related to magic from anyone. You haven't been able to tell me why. If Crucible is your personal preference, awesome. That doesn't make it automatically superior. So listen up and you might learn something.
Let's look at it like this. Begin Point 1.
Crucible of Worlds can be stopped by any of the following cards: Force of Will, Counterspell (Landstill/Threshold), Daze(Threshold), Tin-Street Hooligan (Goblins), Krosan Grip (Goblins/Loam Builds), opposing Pernicious Deeds (Landstill, Loam, Truffle Shuffle, Dirt, etc.), Disenchant (Some Goblins, random white decks), Any other random Artifact/Enchantment removal tool, Any other random counterspell, Any other random board sweeper, and in builds that don't run Eternal Witness, it can also be stopped by Duress, Cabal Therapy, and Hymn to Tourach.
Life From The Loam can be stopped by Meddling Mage (Threshold/Landstill/Fish/Etc), Tormod's Crypt (Aggro or Agg/Control Sideboards), Loaming Shaman (Survival, sometimes), and Jotun Grunt (BW Confidant, Fish, Random White Sideboards). Meddling Mage is equally effective or ineffective against Crucible as Loam is. Period. Crypt can't hit both the Loam itself -and- the Lands you go for, but can be a pain nonetheless (Though you can Stifle it or sweep it with Deed or Punishment). Loaming Shaman is a one in a billion come across, and it can be Stifled, and Jotun Grunt can be removed before it does anything without much difficulty. In any case, both Shaman and Grunt are not permanent removal of the lands or Loam.
Point 1, Therefore, is that in regards to strictly at keeping your kill conditions in the game, Life From The Loam is superior to Crucible of Worlds in every matchup except possibly Fish variants.
End Point 1.
Begin Point 2.
How often will you actually cast Life From The Loam?
If Life From The Loam is inferior to Crucible of Worlds in ANY single regard, it's the recursion of Wastelands. Wasteland recursion, however, should never be necessary in Landstill unless you're dealing with one of the following lands: Rishadan Port (Goblins), Mishra's Factory (Other Landstill, Loam, some random Stax decks), Nantuko Monastery (Other Landstill), or other random lands that produce threats and take away your advantage under a Standstill, like Maze of Ith, Urza's Factory, or Kjeldoran Outpost (No known archetypes.)
Loam and Crucible are close to even in the Mirror. Loam is greater than Crucible in the mirror because Landstill can't afford to counter the Loam in anything short of a one-shot tempo move. However, if the Crucible manages to come down against the counterwall, it's very strong, by all means. But it can still be Disenchanted or destroyed with a Deed.
Rishadan Port, as any Landstill player knows, is the archbitch from hell. Landstill thrives against Goblins when Goblins quits running Port. Loam is slower at recurring the Wastelands to deal with port than is Crucible. However, since Goblins has taken to running Green, Tin-Street Hooligan has become somewhat prevalent. It can be countered in single copies (see Point 3) and if it is, Crucible will make a world of difference in this match. However, most Goblin decks pack Krosan Grip now as well. Don't think they'll hesitate to annihilate your Crucible with it if you don't have a plague on the board.
In most every other match, you won't tie up your mana. Because you'll cast Life From the Loam between 1-2 times per game, maximum. Once to refill on Fetchlands if needed, twice to reload on your kill conditions. If you cast Loam an average of 1.5 times per game, then it ties up 3GGG over 2 games instead of 6. This is not a quantity difference, merely a color difference.
In several games, Life from the Loam does not need to be casted at all. Quite often fetchlands, Mishra's Factory, and Monestary is all that you need.
Loam's initial cast is 2, 1 less than the Crucible, and will usually pick up 2+ lands with no effort at all (Fetchlands, Wasteland victims, Fact Splits.) This is the only time you need to cast Loam until you have board control unless the opponent has a serious disruption scheme (2+ Ports, Sinkhole/Vindicates, etc.). If your mana draw is decent and disruption is light, you won't need to cast it at all at this stage. Later castings come only after gaining board control when you need to grab kill conditions or Wastelands to finish off annoying Ports. This won't suck up your Counterspell/Edict mana, because by this time you have 5-6+ lands on the board.
Loam can also get you mana if you only have 2 in your opening hand, or 3 without a fetchland, by dredging its own targets. This process does tie up your mana, granted, but it's better than being stuck without enough mana to survive.
Point Two is that Life From The Loam is almost never repeatedly cast in the deck and does not tie up your mana.
Begin Point Three.
Life From The Loam preserves your resources by being in the deck. All creature removal not named Swords to Plowshares is dead against you (Unless you count Burn, which is going to your skull regardless of which you run.) Life From The Loam is amazing against Control because your resources will come back. LFTL comes back from discard, countermagic, etc. You don't have to save it if something tries to stop it, Tormod's Crypt notwithstanding. Crucibles can be knocked out of hands, destroyed, or countered, and Witnesses can be stopped (Though as I said, I like Witness a lot in this deck). If someone counters your Crucible, and you Witness it, and replay the Crucible, you're spending 9 Mana for your Crucible and a 2/1. If someone counters my Loam, I'm spending 4 Mana and one draw to get it back, and reload my hand in the process. If someone has a second counter, you're not getting your Crucible (Or if they have one more Counter than you can stop.) If someone has 5-6 counters, I'll eventually get my Loam through. Your card advantage from Witness is negated if you sweep your own Crucible with your Deed. Loam is untouchable by Deed.
Point three is that Loam is way way way more difficult to stop.
Point four is short. Life From The Loam makes Hymn to Tourach, Gerrard's Verdict, and Smallpox significantly less frightening. Loam will refill your hand with plenty of lands to discard, keeping your Counters and removal safe.
Crucible will occasionally be a pot of gold. Wasteland locks will win you some games. Recurring fetchlands for free every turn is nice. But Life from the Loam will win you more games. It will win you those games where you're stuck on two mana because you didn't draw a Stifle for Wasteland or a Force of Will for Sinkhole. It will win you those games where they've destroyed most of your manlands and are going to try to not let you resolve anything that will bring them back. It will win you those games where random Black decks draw two or three Hymn to Tourachs and aims them all at your skull.
For every three situations I wish Loam was Crucible, there's about seven or eight I'm glad it's Loam and -not- Crucible. Life from the Loam wins games. And Crucible isn't "Far Superior" in Landstill. You have done nothing to convince me that Crucible is even -equal- to Life From The Loam in landstill. Much less "Slightly Superior." Much less "Far Superior." Your "Trust me" isn't nearly a compelling enough argument. Sorry.
(Stay tuned next week for my amazingly comical dissertation on why Tithe > Dark Ritual/Chrome Mox in BW Confidant. Your head a-splode.)
I don't see anyother Landstill deck taking top 8's with LftL in it at major tourneys.
This is not the Crucible vs LftL debate thread, stop posting about it.
If you want to debate it go here: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showt...?t=625&page=14
Last edited by Jander78; 12-26-2006 at 10:54 AM.
I wasn't the one who brought LFTL up. That honor would belong to Outsideangel. And since this deck is posted on the New&Developmental Forum, isn't the point of the thread to discuss what cards are inferior and what cards they might be replaced with?
After all, we're only trying to improve the deck, before you go a-flaming. I happen to love Landstill, as I'm sure do you. Congratulations on any successes you've had in tournaments with Landstill, but this doesn't make you the beginning and end-all of the deck archetype (After all, even Chris Pikula and David Gearhart have had their decks under constant alteration.) If, however, you still feel you need no suggestions or advice or are unwilling to debate the deck in its own thread, you should probably have a mod lock your thread. Or have them make a "Bragging and Self-Promotion" forum so you can post the deck and repeatedly.
Well, this is my version. You will notice the lack of LFtL Mr. Taco.
Lands (24)
Dual
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
Basic
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
Fetch
4 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
Recurring
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
Draw(10)
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Standstill
Remove(10)
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Diabolic Edict
2 Krosan Grip
Counters(10)
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Stifle
Recycling (6)
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Eternal Witness
Sideboard
4 Duress
2 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt/Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
1 Stifle
info.ninja
I basically just said what you said, except without so many words or so much of that damn pesky reasoning. I may have said it first but you said it better.
Anyway, I just tend to assume that it's generally accepted that LftL is typically better than Crucible in any deck that can support it. There are a dozen things that hit Crucible and not Life (namely artifact destruction) and anything that does hit Life hits Crucible too. (graveyard hate, etc) Since it makes sense to me that cards your opponent can't stop are better than cards your opponent can (re: Krosan Grip > Naturalize) I figure it makes sense that LftL is better than Crucible.
Also, Life has better synergy with Witness than Crucible does. Dredging Life fills up your graveyard with Witness targets. In what ways do Crucible and Witness interact with each other?
Lastly, Intuition -> LftL, Genesis, Cycle Land? Or something? Is Intuition just dead nowadays? I haven't seen it in a list in ages.
TEAM DRAGONFORCIA-
Ghost ridin' the whip like we invented that shit.
TEAM UNICORN
We're going for number four!
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