I know that these are usually supposed to be a discussion of sorts about the possibilities and implications of a single card or idea; but I just have a question.
Should Fire/ice always be the secondary burn spell in anything packing blue and red?
I ask this because, while fire/ice is generally weak in all of its' areas (damage, drawing cards), it also is versatile and that seems to be what generally wins games; the ability to deal with a variety of things at any given moment.
So, discuss!
Is it too weak, or is it flexible enough to be an auto-include?
I don't think it should always be, although it usually ends up that way. Of course, Magma Jet is another card that could fit nicely in those slots. Of course, Fire//Ice pitches to Force, but that isn't everything.
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Originally Posted by Slay
The versatility of Fire/Ice is overshadowed by the fact that the Fire side is weak compared to other removal (the only 1-toughness creature with a crosshair in the format is Confidant, so the split damage is kind of irrelevant), and the Ice side is bad in an environment where threats are plenty and permanent, which UR decks generally have a hard time with.
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Secondary? It's probably the third, or possibly even the fourth, burn spell to be considered. First goes to Bolt, second to Magma Jet, and third goes to Fire/Ice, Chain Lightning, or Lightning Helix.
The Scry 2 attached to Magma Jet makes it a stronger play than Fire/Ice most of the time. As mentioned, the only dudes with a toughness of 1 are Lackey, Fanatic (ah...dur...), Birds, Mom, and Bob. Fire can also be split to kill a Goyf after Goyfs run into each other in a three color build. Magma Jet will occasionally not let you nail two Lackeys, or tap a Mystic Enforcer or Tarmogoyf to swing for the win, but I think that the card selection makes up for this in almost all cases.
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Fire/Ice really isn't a good enough card to see play in Legacy right now. Both of its halves are well below the power level of the format.
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Last edited by Volt; 10-12-2008 at 05:42 AM.
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It's on the list of cards that I really want to play, but that I just can't justify shoving into a deck-by the time I feel that I can add Fire/Ice, I already am running Bolt, Magma Jet, and maybe Chain Lightning. And what deck wants to run more than 8 or 12 burn spells?
On the other hand, it feels much more satisfying to nail a Goyf for one and your opponent for one after Goyfs run into each other than it is to waste a whole Bolt on it.
InfoNinjas
I'm curious why people believe that Fire/Ice cannot be good in the right situations? I still believe that it is one of the best cards ever to be slapped onto a Stick...pre-supposing someone creates a relevant modern Stick build... And the ability to off either a bouncing Goyf or a number of small but decent creatures while pinging your opponent or setting them back by Icing a key permanent at a key point also seems attractive.
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1. There are much better things to throw onto a stick. Swords, helix, counter, etc are much better.
2. If someone disrupts the stick [etc, using the ever popular Stifle that can be found in Thresh], you lose 2 cards for their one. Horrible.
It's not a question of what is better on the stick (and I would argue that STP, for example is not nearly as good as this), but the fact that this card would be generally good in that deck and also is a fine choice for the sceptre. Are you going to make a deck with Counterspell in it just for the Sceptre? Are you going to make deck with Counterspell at all? Helix is pretty good though. But again, if it is not on the stick, it just isn't very good at all. Are you going to include THAT just for the stick? Sounds like a bad deck.
What are you talking about? If the imprint is Stifled, nobody even gets to see the Fire//Ice.
I think the fact that it is a blue card that can pitch to FoW is a major boon. When you are counting the cards for your deck, this is one of those cards that makes the decisions easier becuase of that.
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I see it as a grown-up combat trick. If you're playing creatures, it probably gets a lot better. Lock down your guy before you alpha in? Burn off your blocking Tarmogoyf? That's where it shines. Firing Landstill for two damage is about as bad as it gets though.
I think it just doesnt do enough in the current metagoyf, who/what was playing this card in the first place to even raise this question, though?
Fire//Ice right now is seeing the problems that red in general is facing. This card is in fact pretty decent, the problem is that it doesnt answer really anything anymore. Fire used to 2-for-1 almost everytime, and Ice could cheat you a turn by tapping a land or creature, but it was the fire side that was much more relevant. Now, the issue is that it doesnt kill a 'goyf just like nearly every other red card. Sorry red, until you get some new tools, your on the decline.
I love fire/ice but the environment isn't as ripe for its abuse as it used to be. Being pitchable to FOW is icing on the cake. As far as 2 damage 2 mana spells suddenshock rocks my world. I have a R/u goblin list in the early workings and it is awesome for insuring lackey connects by burning or tapping potential blockers.
In U/R it seems like the 3rd best burn spell, I would rank Bolt (obv) and Magma Jet ahead of it. Like everyone has said both sides are pretty underwhelming against alot of the format right now.
In a more control oriented build i think fire/ice is superior because of it is so much versatile than the rest of the cards. It's obvious that it's not the best burn spell avaliable, but it can deny a turn by tapping a land, it's a cantrip, it pitches to FOW, can buy a turn by tapping a lethal attack... and this is only the Ice side.
Of course if we are talking about burn spells than bolt and magma jet are far superior.
In overall card utility i think fire/ice is still great. Even in a goyf heavy meta.
O'rly? So play it, or find someone who plays F/I ang go's Top8.
Bet you feel like an ass now, huh?
And for the record, two decks with 4x fire/ice made top 8 at that tourney, with one making top 4, and the other in the finals.
Hm.. ok over there in NY the people play strange decks.
Yet we are both Canadians....Hm.. ok over there in NY the people play strange decks.
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