[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

[Teumie]

that's the whole point, playing an extra color just for one SB card sometimes is hard (especially if it gets wasted during your first/second turn) and i'm just wondering if it's worth it ...

I'll think about it for awhile, discuss our meta here and let you know what i played at the tourney ;-)

[beastman]

How can you not be confident about the merfolk match up? They have almost no way to beat you, barring a god draw while you draw the doodoo.

[Windux]

Wouldn't it be smart, to start a new thread for the Survival-less builds, instead of posting it into the Elf Survival Thread?

I will still play this deck with Survival, because I think Survival is better then 4 Cabal Therapy.
And yes, i tested both variants.

[beastman]

I believe it would actually better to keep it in this thread, as this seems to be the way that the deck is evolving. I didn't want it to be true, because I love the card survival so damn much, but the deck is clearly much more effective without survival.

[Teumie]

about my experiences with the merfolk matchup:
For me, it is just a race to who gets the most creatures the soonest ...

- they play 2-3 jitte main;
- they play 11 lords, about the same as we do
- their mutavaults tend to get BIG because of elvish champion ...
- i have the idea that they draw more cards than we do (we only have messenger, they have standstill + adept + some builds play cold-eyed selkie)

Its just my feeling, like I said earlier I did'nt test with SB, so i guess after side, i should be in the advantage ...

anyway, i will keep testing this 'new' (W/O survival) build to see for myself if it is better than the survival build.
Regarding threat: don't we just play aggro elves now instead of TEES?

[Di]

about my experiences with the merfolk matchup:
For me, it is just a race to who gets the most creatures the soonest ...

- they play 2-3 jitte main;
- they play 11 lords, about the same as we do
- their mutavaults tend to get BIG because of elvish champion ...
- i have the idea that they draw more cards than we do (we only have messenger, they have standstill + adept + some builds play cold-eyed selkie)

Its just my feeling, like I said earlier I did'nt test with SB, so i guess after side, i should be in the advantage ...

anyway, i will keep testing this 'new' (W/O survival) build to see for myself if it is better than the survival build.
Regarding threat: don't we just play aggro elves now instead of TEES?

Regarding your issues with the Merfolk matchup:

- Umezawa's Jitte

Wirewood Symbiote does an excellent job of offsetting this. You can just block the equipped creature and then before damage bounce it using Symbiote, preventing the Jitte from getting counters. I've also been running Jitte in the sideboard of Elves for quite some time, and you should be doing the same to not only improve this matchup but other aggro matches as well.

- They play 11-12 lords, same as we do.

True, but we get them out much faster than they do. Merfolk is a slow deck in comparison to us as we play so much acceleration. Generally speaking, we can have a 2:1 lord ratio to them within the first few turns and go on the offensive, thus causing them to leave their lords to play defense. If they do so and it goes to the midgame, you have a better chance of winning because you have much threats than they have answers and have fewer dead cards (ie Standstill, Aether Vial, or Stifle). Outside of lords their only relevant card is Force of Will, and that will have to deal not only with our own lords, but also Sylvan Messenger, Natural Order, and maybe Wirewood Symbiote. And even then, we have Cabal Therapy to knock out Force of Will and/or other nasty cards in their hand.

- Their Mutavaults tend to get big due to Elvish Champion.

This can be an issue pretty much because it makes them unblockable. However, the deck runs Wasteland to help combat stuff like Mutavault, and you can also use Quirion Ranger to return all your lands to prevent forestwalk. But aside from this narrow scenario, it's difficult for them to play aggressive against us as we run nearly double the amount of creatures they do.

- I have the idea that they draw more cards than we do.

In theory they do because they run more spells, but this isn't necessarily true. For the argument I'm also assuming the builds in question don't run Cold Eyed Selkie, because it's terrible. Silvergill Adept is only a single card, and Standstill is terrible beyond turn 3-4. If they draw it when we have creatures in play the only use they can get out of it is saving it for FoW fodder. Meanwhile, Sylvan Messenger can be returned constantly with Wirewood Symbiote to generate card advantage and overwhelm the opponent, and even without Symbiote it isn't uncommon to hit 3-4 creatures off it. We match their card advantage quite well imo.


Regardless of pre/post-board, we have a favorable matchup against them. Outside of Umezawa's Jitte they have a tough time handling creatures, especially when they come out as fast as they do in Elves.

[Teumie]

Ok, guess I will be wrong then (must be my play style ;-))
I'll try the matchup again this week and see what happens.

Di, can I ask you what SB you use if you play jitte side? Did you cut the absolute laws? I'm not sure about our meta, but I guess there will be 'some' zoo & goblins (less sligh around here). How much of those 2 is obviously guessing ;-) I anticipate a lot of merfolk and 'a lot' of countertop + tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh.

Anyway, thanks for your feedback

[Di]

My side is currently in a state of flux because I'm not finished testing for the next large event (which is next Saturday for me). However, this is what I've been running lately:

4 Krosan Grip
2 Tsunami
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Absolute Law
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Loaming Shaman
2 Pithing Needle

It's an ugly board but it's fulfilling my needs atm. I added Needle for a way to deal with control matchups and it's been working well, otherwise the rest is rather self-explanitory.

[Teumie]

hehe, it is indeed ugly :wink:
I try to avoid boards like that because in my opinion a 2-off is just not enough to consistently draw it (like, you really want to draw an absolute law against red decks and a choke/tsunami against blue decks).

I'm not too sure about the relics, are those really necessary? when NO for loaming shaman, you can deplete one graveyard ...

Anyway, thanks and I'll keep you posted with my findings ;-)

[Di]

Natural order costs 4. That's sometimes too slow, nor is it enough against them. Plus Relic comes in against tempo thresh and loam builds. The rest is just an effort to fit in as much as I can, as although I disagree with that strategy, the deck needs to have options to fight against a variety of decks.

[beastman]

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Priest of Titania
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Wasteland
4 Forest

I've been testing this out, and the addition of the vanquishers is working out very nicely.

[Radiant]

Beastman: How have the 2 Priest of Titania worked out for you? Are they needed?

Personally I've added W'sR Vanquishers in my survival-less test build too, because starting with Di's concept, I've been unhappy with the complete lack of 2CC-drops.
I want to add more removal like Maelstrom Pulse, but fear that this will make it only slower without many gains.

[Di]

Adding in Vanquisher to beef up the deck is fine, but cutting Priest to do so is wrong. The role of Priest and Archdruid is paramount in this build due to not only our high curve, but because the fundamental turn of the deck is turn 3. The deck will always want to hit a t2 Priest effect to explode on turn 3, otherwise the deck can occasionally lag as it gets cluttered with 3 and 4 drops. I'd honestly cut the 4th Champion and possibly the 4th Messenger before cutting the Priests down that low, or at least keep them at 3. The deck relies heavily on Sylvan Messenger as its engine now, and having less opportunity to play out more spells on a Messenger turn can hurt the deck a bit, because without those mana boosters the deck can stall pretty easily.

@ removal (Maelstrom Pulse)

If any removal would go into the deck, Eyeblight's Ending is the card. It kills everything in the format and you flip it on Messenger. It's solid for those who have the space.

[beastman]

I admit that cutting the priests seems wrong in hindsight, but I would never cut a messenger. I'll go back to 4 priest and 3 champion with only 2 vanquisher and see how that works.

[Teumie]

interesting, I was just wondering why you cut 1 ranger and no symbiote.
In my testing i found the ranger a real bomb (it accellerates so much) whereas the symbiote is slower in my opponents vision, less of a bomb ...

I've been thinking about the eyeblight's ending as well, but cannot find room for it, except if i throw out the therapies ...
If you trow out creatures, it will make the deck less aggro, while it can now be insanely aggro on turn 4

last tuesday i tested against merfolk a lot again, and in one game, he had 7 lords in play, me only 4 (with 2 champions in hand, no willing to play them because he could kill me with his mutavaults)
anyway, I NO for messenger and draw another lord, I bounce the messenger for another lord, play all 4 lords and swing with bigger and more creatures than he has ... priceless :o)

[beastman]

The symbiotes just do so much crazy shit, such as bouncing in response to removal, and recycling messengers. Also, they are not elves, so they are much harder to find.

[Di]

Cutting Symbiotes down would be a huge mistake as they're invaluable to helping out with problematic matchups. The fact that they stop Jitte alone makes it worthwhile, but it's acceleration, Messenger recursion, and removal protection make it one of the strongest cards in the deck. I've also had a couple occasions where I was able to Natural Order under Plague (and sometimes double Plague) because he wasn't an elf. If you went below 3 it
wouldn't be worth running at all because you'll rarely see them, but unfortunately I don't have space for the 4th.

[beastman]

Colin, have you tried fitting a couple jittes MD? Seems like they could be power cards that could help fill the survival slot.

[Di]

MD Jitte was one of the first cards I looked at with this build, and even tried it with the SotF build too. I didn't end up liking them maindeck though because they could be clunky at times, and I saw them a bit in matchups that I never wanted to see them in. However, I still keep them in the board because they're still ideal for all the aggro matchups, but I couldn't justify keeping it main given how that's only roughly 1/3 of the decks you're likely to face.

[beastman]

What decks would you not want to see jitte against that a card you would cut for it would be better?

[Di]

It isn't that necessarily dislike seeing Jitte in any particular matchups, but rather they don't do as much as I'd like compared to the current maindeck configuration. As it is the maindeck works very fluently in essentially all aspects of its gameplan; early acceleration, disruption, card advantage, etc. By adding Jitte into the maindeck, regardless of what you're cutting, some part of that becomes unbalanced, which I found I didn't like. The aggro matchup may improve a bit, but the control matchup may go down a little. There was some inconsistencies to my gameplan while running Jitte maindeck and it occasionally interfered with the deck's game 1 engine, where Sylvan Messenger is at its best. It just wasn't a good fit for me personally as I have a particular playstyle with the deck, and I've felt it's done better for me if I have the option to bring it in matchups where I know I'm going to want to see it as opposed to drawing it when I won't want to.

[Justin]

My take on Survival Elves:

// Lands
2 [US] Gaea's Cradle
4 [U] Taiga
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
7 [9E] Forest

// Creatures
4 [US] Priest of Titania
4 [VI] Quirion Ranger
4 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
4 [R] Llanowar Elves
1 [DS] Viridian Zealot
4 [EVG] Imperious Perfect
1 [JU] Anger
1 [CFX] Progenitus
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 [10E] Elvish Champion
4 [EVG] Sylvan Messenger
1 [UD] Masticore
4 [M10] Elvish Archdruid

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [PT] Natural Order

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [TE] Choke
SB: 3 [LE] Caller of the Claw

I cut Wirewood Symbiote a while back and haven't missed it. With 10 lords, Elves do not need as much protection as they used to. Cutting them also helps you maximize your Messangers.

I also think that Vanquisher is absolutely horrible for this deck. You don't need anymore beef with all the lords. That it trades with Goyf isn't so hot given how fast and explosive this elf deck is. You want to limit your deck to cards that acellerate mana, lords, and your toolbox cards. Vanquisher doesn't fill a role at all.

[Di]

I figured I'd write a report you guys after I top8'd at Eli's on Saturday in my first large event with the new list. I took pretty extensive notes so it'll be pretty detailed.

For reference, here is what I ran:

Epic Elves

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Priest of Titania
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
3 Wasteland
4 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Loaming Shaman
2 Tsunami
2 Absolute Law
2 Umezawa's Jitte


I'll discuss the decklist and sideboard and how things went after the report.


Round 1: Combo Elves

G1: He mulls to 5, and I keep a 7 with Symbiote, Therapy, Priest, 2 Archdruids, and 2 land. I open with a Symbiote, and he does as well. I draw a Llanowar, miss on a Therapy, then flashback losing the Symbiote to hit a Natural Order. His turn 2 he plays Elvish Visionary and passes. My turn I miss a land drop and play Priest. He draws an Archdruid and plays it, then passes. My turn involves playing Messenger flipping Ranger, Champion and a Llanowar, then playing out all of it and swinging for near lethal. He tries to go off the following turn with a Glimpse and friends but ends up being short mana and dies.

I don't remember what I sideboarded out really in any matchups, but I do remember what I boarded in.

+2 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Gaddock Teeg

G2: I open a hand with 1 land, Llanowar, Priest, Archdruid, Jitte, Perfect, and Ranger. Yeah, nuts. We both play a turn 1 Llanowar, and he has turn 2 Archdruid. I play turn 2 Ranger and Priest. Turn 3 he plays another Archdruid, then Summoner's Pact for Chameleon Colossus and plays it. My turn I end up playing a Champion, Archdruid, Perfect, Jitte and equip it, then use the counters to kill an Archdruid. He can't kill me, and dies the next turn.

2-0
1-0

Round 2: Progenitus Threshold

G1: I open a hand of 1 Land, Wasteland, 2 Llanowar, Progenitus, Sylvan Messenger, and Perfect on the play. I open with a Llanowar. He plays Tundra, Ponder. I waste the Tundra and play another Llanowar and attack. He plays a land and plays Top. I play Perfect and attack for 4, and his turn he gets Plowed and plays a Tarmogoyf. I don't hit a 4th mana source but draw a Ranger, which gets FoW'd pitching Progenitus. He plays a Hierarch, then swings with the Goyf. I draw a land and play Messenger which resolves, flipping 2 lords and a Priest. He swings again and plays a Rhox War Monk, and next turn I manage to resolve both an Archdruid and a Priest. He swings again and puts me down to 6, but my next turn I draw Sylvan Messenger which chains into another one, and I end up attacking for 16 with 4 forestwalking 4/4 Archdruid, Ranger, and 2 Llanowars.

+3 Krosan Grip, +2 Tsunami

G2: I open a decent hand with 2 land, Symbiote, 2 Messenger, Natural Order, and Priest. He opens with a Hierarch. I play the Symbiote, but he has a StP for it and plays a Ponder. I draw and play the Priest, and he has a Path to Exile for it eot and has a turn 3 Natural Order. I miss my land drop and can't get there in time to resolve my own Natural Order.

G3: I open a hand of 2 land, 1 Llanowar, Tsunami, Therapy, Progenitus, and Ranger. I open with the Llanowar, and he plays a Ponder. My 2nd turn Therapy misses but he's holding garbage, and I play the Ranger and attack. He plays his 2nd land and plays a Pridemage, and I follow it with an Archdruid. He plays a fetchland and passes, and I, fearing Natural Order, play Tsunami killing his 2 lands when he has an uncracked fetchland. He doesn't draw another land before I can Therapy again for a Natural Order, and I overwhelm him with lords.

2-1
2-0

Round 3: Ichorid

G1: I'm on the play and open a hand of Savannah, 2 Llanowar, Champion, Messenger, Priest, Ranger. I open with a Llanowar, and he plays a PImp. My 2nd turn involves a Priest, Ranger, and another Llanowar. He dredges and hits a Narcomoeba and triple Therapy and a Bridge, and manages to hit my Champion and Messenger. I draw an Archdruid and swing. He dredges and hits another Bridge and get an Ichorid and Narcomoeba in play, then Dread Returns for a GGT that is a 10/10 and has 8 zombie tokens. He ends up killing me while I'm one blocker short of surviving with lethal on the table.

+3 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Loaming Shaman, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +2 Umezawa's Jitte

G2: He kills me turn 2, and I didn't have any hate.

0-2
2-1

Round 4: The Epic Elves (nearly card-for-card mirror)

G1: I'm on the play with a hand of Llanowar, 2 land, 2 Therapy, Symbiote, and a Perfect. I open with a Llanowar, and he has a turn 1 Priest thanks to ESG. Next turn I Therapy him 3 times and rape his hand. His following turn he has an archdruid and a Llanowar. I draw and play a Ranger and Perfect, and he plays a Champion and we're off to the races, swinging for 6. I draw and play another Perfect and swing for 12. He swings for 6, and uses Symbiote to return Champion. I then draw Champion and swing in.

+2 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Gaddock Teeg

G2: I open a hand of 2 land, Llanowar, 2 Natural Order, Gaddock Teeg, and Ranger. We both play a turn 1 Llanowar, and he has a turn 2 Archdruid. My turn 2 I draw a land and play the Ranger. His turn he has turn 3 Order, and I respond with a turn 3 Order of my own. His turn he plays some mana elves, and on my turn, preparing to play my 2nd Natural Order, I draw the fucking Progenitus. I end up watching him go crazy with Messengers and Symbiote while I stare at the Progenitus in my hand, spooning with the Natural Order.

G3: I open a hand of Land, Llanowar, Priest, Ranger, Champion, Messenger, Messenger. Nuts. My turn 2 Priest ends up tapping for 6 casting the first Messenger which flips another Messenger and 2 Llanowars, and then my other 2 yield me 3 more lords. I kill him the following turn.

2-1
3-1

Round 5: Zoo

Deciding round of my tournament, and I get paired against Zoo. Awesome.

G1: We both mulligan to 5, and I keep a hand of Land, Symbiote, Therapy, Champion, Archdruid. I Therapy him on the play naming Grim Lavamancer, with him revealing 2 Pridemage, Kird Ape, Nacatl, and a Plains. Hm. He plays the Plains and says go. I draw a land and play Symbiote, flashing back to hit the Pridemages, and then notice he drew a fucking Grim Lavamancer for the turn. Hilarious. He draws and says go, I draw a land and get Archdruid out. He draws a Plateau and plays Lavamancer. I draw a Wasteland and hit Plateau, then play Champion and swing for 3. He draws a Taiga and plays Nacatl. I draw a Therapy and hit the Kird Ape I knew he had, swing for 3. He draws a Lightning Bolt, kills my Champion, then attacks. I draw nothing and he's able to kill all my guys and swing.

+2 Pithing Needle, +2 Absolute Law, +2 Umezawa's Jitte

G2: I open a hand with 2 land, Llanowar, Priest, 2 Perfect, and Progenitus. I open with a Llanowar and it gets Bolted. My turn 2 Priest doesn't get killed as I watch him play a Pridemage. My turn 3 I draw a Ranger, and play both Perfects. He plays another Pridemage and passes. I draw an Archdruid and swing hard, and he has no removal.

G3: I open a hand with land, 2 Wasteland, Llanowar, Priest, Natural Order, and Jitte. He opens with a Kird Ape. I play a Llanowar, and he Bolts it and plays another Kird Ape. I play a Priest, and he plays a Pridemage and swings. I untap, play my land, and Natural Order. He swings and I block the Pridemage and go to 9. I Wasteland both his red sources, then play a Symbiote and attack. He Path to Exiles my Symbiote, but doesn't have a way to deal me 9. After the game, he told me he had the Path for the Priest but wanted to wait to see if I'd play something better on my turn.

2-1
4-1

Round 6: ID into top8


Top8: Ichorid

Same Ichorid player from before.

G1: He mulligans to 5 and I'm on the draw with a hand of Land, Llanowar, Ranger, Ranger, Priest, lord, Messenger. He says go with no play, and I have a Llanowar. He doesn't have a play, and my 2nd turn I play both Rangers and the Priest. He plays LED and pitches his hand. I untap and play Messenger flipping 4 elves, play out all of them and then play Natural Order getting Progenitus. I had something like 70 power on the table.

Same sb as before

G2: I open a hand of Land, Llanowar, Wasteland, Jitte, Natural Order, Priest, and 2 lords. He plays a turn 1 PImp. I play a turn 1 Llanowar. He dredges and attacks, and an Ancient Grudge hits the yard. I draw a Relic, waste his land then play Relic. Naturally, he has the 2nd land in hand, and uses Grudge and I'm forced to blow Relic. I play a land then a Priest. He then plays Firestorm next turn and I don't have a chance.

G3: I end up mulling to 4 into a hand of Land, Symbiote, Champion, Archdruid. I play Symbiote and pass. He plays Coliseum, Careful Study. I draw a Llanowar and play it, and attack. He dredges and says go. I draw a lord (3 in hand) attack and say go. He dregdes and says go. I draw a lord (4) attack and say go. He dredges garbage and says go. I draw a lord (5) attack and say go. He returns 2 Ichorids and attack, and I make the mistake of returning Fyndhorn to untap Symbiote and block to get rid of his Bridge. Then he Therapies my Fyndhorn. Naturally, I draw the land next turn, but it's too late at this point and I can't come back as he dredges another Bridge and I can't cast anything. I had 3 turns to draw 1 or 17 more land, 2 Relic, 4 Priest, 6 Llanowar, or 3 Ranger, but couldn't manage to do it. Bad luck happens.


Overall, the deck performed incredibly well. It was very consistent all day, and aside from that awful game 3 against Ichorid in the top8, my draws were really good and I didn't have mana issues at all. Wasteland and Therapy were great all day, the Messenger engine worked very well and the deck was explosive.

At first I figured I wouldn't make any changes to the deck, but now looking at it I'm thinking I want to add the 8th Llanowar into the deck. I always want one first turn given the high number of 3-4cc spells. I'm looking at cutting the 4th Champion, which I feel is the weakest card in the deck. I'm also going to retool the sideboard a bit to fight Ichorid better, although I'm pretty sure that new trap card for Zendikar will be the best bet for us.

[Teumie]

Thanks for report Di.
Normally I would have played yesterday on a rather large tourney, but due to a beer degustation the night before I didn't make it ... (which is a shame ...)

anyway, about adding another llanowar elf: I recently encountered a lot of chalice .. if they play it at 1, it screws us so hard ...
If you add another 1cc, that brings your total to about 18 1cc spells ... isn't that a bit too much?

so you ran into Ichorid 2 times and 0 times merfolk? that's too bad man, ichorid really sucks as a MU.

were you talking about the black trap card to remove cards in a graveyard? I have the impression that the new trap cards will givecombo-ish decks a hard time ...

[crow_mw]

Wow, so many decks running Progenitus...

[Illissius]

So how about Entomb? Something like:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Anger
1 Caller of the Claw
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Wirewood Herald
4 Sylvan Messenger

(Don't look at it as a proposed list, it's just a collection of ideas in list form.)

+ eight one-sided haste enablers
+ haste lets you combo out with Symbiotes, Priests, and Messengers -- it's not infinite without either Mirror Entity or Changeling Titan or something, but pretty broken nonetheless
+ Cabal Therapy and Entomb for Cabal Therapy
+ the above plus Wirewood Herald
+ Wirewood Herald and Survival plus Caller of the Claw
- vulnerable to Wasteland omg
- vulnerable to grave hate omg
- space is uncomfortably tight, the above is what seems like a basic shell and it's 42 cards already, so you'd have to make some innovative cuts (or cut some parts entirely) if you want to fit in more lands or other things
- per the above, it doesn't yet include anything to make your dudes evade or attack for more than 2 other than Archdruid
* (the ugly) figuring out which of Entomb, Survival, and/or Herald to add which toolbox bullets for

[beastman]

What exactly does entomb accomplish in that deck other than getting anger, which survival already does?

[Illissius]

Not much. Feel free to run eight Survivals instead.

[Di]

That is a terrible idea. The deck doesn't even run 4 Survival, let alone need 8 ways to get haste. We've already concluded that package wasn't worthwhile because it clogged the deck of bad draws, and adding 4 more will make it worse. Open a hand with double Entomb and you've basically mulliganed. Midgame topdeck it's weak. If you Entomb for a Therapy midgame and wiff blind, that's incredible card disadvantage. Not to mention in requires you to draw multiple fetchlands. It isn't Survival at all, it's just get Anger or bust. Given a majority of people have concluded haste is no longer necessary it certainly isn't worth trying to make that your entire gameplan.

I do atleast appreciate the honest effort to innovate, but cmon.

[Hawdes]

Is it just me or does this thread seem kind of dead? Hasn't ZEN given the elf deck any new cards that would be appropriate to add in? Are people still playtesting this deck and what's their conclusions?

I've been testing new decks since the Elf deck seems to fall behind more and more due to the fact that WotC doesn't print any new playable elves. Or am I totaly wrong?

[Teumie]

I still like the deck very much, i just find that it comes 'second' to lots of decks and as such, is still a tier 2 deck ...

Especially in the latest build which use 3 colors, I find myself being manascrewed often and being subject to stifle more than i used to be.
I know steely resolve is inferior to absolute law, but running 3 colors for just 2 SB cards is not worth it for me. I'm even wondering whether the black splash is required; having a bayou in opening hand as the only land sucks very much (almost as hard as having an opening hand with a wasteland)...

concerning elves: M10 featured a superb new elf.
Zendikar contains not that much, in zendikar i guess goblins get the better win (the new lackey).
The only elf which I'm gonna order is the one which lets you play the top card of your library if its a land and lets you play 2 lands a turn. Not sure whether it will fit in this deck, but is a fun card.

[Al-ucard]

What about playing mono green? something like this:

// Lands
2 [US] Gaea's Cradle
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [LG] Pendelhaven
4 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
9 [ON] Forest (4)

// Creatures
3 [M10] Elvish Visionary
3 [DS] Viridian Zealot
4 [MOR] Heritage Druid
4 [EVG] Sylvan Messenger
4 [EVG] Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 [M10] Llanowar Elves
2 [EVE] Talara's Battalion
4 [SC] Wirewood Symbiote
4 [M10] Elvish Archdruid
4 [LRW] Imperious Perfect
4 [9E] Elvish Champion


In my testing is better to have more business elves than others like fyndhorn so we improve the topdecks.

Now I'm testing heritage druid instead fyndhorn, I think a topdecked heritage is better than fyndhorn since in that turn you can use other elves to play cards in your hand.

Thoughts?

[Di]

Is it just me or does this thread seem kind of dead? Hasn't ZEN given the elf deck any new cards that would be appropriate to add in? Are people still playtesting this deck and what's their conclusions?

I've been testing new decks since the Elf deck seems to fall behind more and more due to the fact that WotC doesn't print any new playable elves. Or am I totaly wrong?

The never hasn't ever really received much attention due to various speculative reasons, such as the fact there's a stronger tribal deck in the metagame in Merfolk, it has a rough control and combo matchup, it's green (people don't like green for some reason), it lacks removal, etc. It's just one of those decks that has potential and power, but just isn't played often enough and people dismiss it outright. The fact that the deck hasn't seen ridiculous cards come out for it at the same pace as the other tribal decks could have something to do with it, but we did get Elvish Archdruid in M10 which imo breaks the deck in half.

Once people start playing it and it puts up results will it then get some recognition. Until then, it'll simply be labeled as a rogue tribal deck.


Especially in the latest build which use 3 colors, I find myself being manascrewed often and being subject to stifle more than i used to be.
I know steely resolve is inferior to absolute law, but running 3 colors for just 2 SB cards is not worth it for me. I'm even wondering whether the black splash is required; having a bayou in opening hand as the only land sucks very much (almost as hard as having an opening hand with a wasteland)...

concerning elves: M10 featured a superb new elf.
Zendikar contains not that much, in zendikar i guess goblins get the better win (the new lackey).
The only elf which I'm gonna order is the one which lets you play the top card of your library if its a land and lets you play 2 lands a turn. Not sure whether it will fit in this deck, but is a fun card.

Technically you can get color screwed in any deck running three colors, so putting that exclusively on the deck isn't entirely necessary. Plus, the other colors are merely splashes, so even then getting colorscrewed is rare, but it happens. The deck is running just as many fetchlands as it did before and just as many as every other deck, so that argument can be thrown out the window. However, where other decks can get messed up hard with Stifle this can fight much better because it can run off a single land with all the acceleration it has.

To me, and the others who've picked up the direction I'm taking the deck, running the additional colors is a necessary evil. You technically can get away with only running two and cutting white and Absolute Law. If you're going to switch Law for anything, I'd prefer it be Dense Foliage as opposed to Steely Resolve. Although Foliage doesn't stop Jitte or Grim Lavamancer, it still keeps Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger intact. Although now that we discuss it, I'm debating if one of those replacements for Law might be better currently. I ran Law specifically to deal with Devastating Dreams, Firespout, Volcanic Fallout, etc, but I'm starting to see them decline, even in Zoo sideboards, so it's possible you can run something in place of them.

But cutting black imo is a mistake. The sole reason to run it in the first place was to improve our bad matchups to the point of winnable/even, because without it we're helpless to lose virtually all control and combo matchups barring an insane draw. The ability to have some sort of disruption is what gives this deck a fighting chance in the metagame, because the gameplan of just dropping elf after elf with nothing else to do won't cut it a majority of the time.

[beastman]

I'm trying the deck without black, as I feel that the upside to having therapy isn't really enough to compensate for getting color screwed. I'm putting in 2 jittes and 2 vanquisher's in their place.

Also, I saw that someone had included pendlehaven in their list, and I think that might be worth more testing.

[Hawdes]

The never hasn't ever really received much attention due to various speculative reasons, such as the fact there's a stronger tribal deck in the metagame in Merfolk, it has a rough control and combo matchup, it's green (people don't like green for some reason), it lacks removal, etc. It's just one of those decks that has potential and power, but just isn't played often enough and people dismiss it outright. The fact that the deck hasn't seen ridiculous cards come out for it at the same pace as the other tribal decks could have something to do with it, but we did get Elvish Archdruid in M10 which imo breaks the deck in half.

Once people start playing it and it puts up results will it then get some recognition. Until then, it'll simply be labeled as a rogue tribal deck.



Technically you can get color screwed in any deck running three colors, so putting that exclusively on the deck isn't entirely necessary. Plus, the other colors are merely splashes, so even then getting colorscrewed is rare, but it happens. The deck is running just as many fetchlands as it did before and just as many as every other deck, so that argument can be thrown out the window. However, where other decks can get messed up hard with Stifle this can fight much better because it can run off a single land with all the acceleration it has.

To me, and the others who've picked up the direction I'm taking the deck, running the additional colors is a necessary evil. You technically can get away with only running two and cutting white and Absolute Law. If you're going to switch Law for anything, I'd prefer it be Dense Foliage as opposed to Steely Resolve. Although Foliage doesn't stop Jitte or Grim Lavamancer, it still keeps Wirewood Symbiote and Quirion Ranger intact. Although now that we discuss it, I'm debating if one of those replacements for Law might be better currently. I ran Law specifically to deal with Devastating Dreams, Firespout, Volcanic Fallout, etc, but I'm starting to see them decline, even in Zoo sideboards, so it's possible you can run something in place of them.

But cutting black imo is a mistake. The sole reason to run it in the first place was to improve our bad matchups to the point of winnable/even, because without it we're helpless to lose virtually all control and combo matchups barring an insane draw. The ability to have some sort of disruption is what gives this deck a fighting chance in the metagame, because the gameplan of just dropping elf after elf with nothing else to do won't cut it a majority of the time.

I personally love the deck... I've always liked green decks because they're often very straight forward and great at what they're intended to do, that is BASH FACE.
The trouble for me has been that when I playtested this deck, I did it against Storm combo with Ad N and Doomsday, Tempothresh/other blue gay decks and Aggroloam, which resulted in tons of losses... Unless I resolved a NO into Progenitus fast...

But I certainly love this deck, to feel the raw power of flipping elf after elf and putting even more into play... Always loved the "Elf-factor" of once resolved, they just keep coming.
I would gladly help you guys out in order to get this deck forward. I've even thought of piloting this deck in my upcoming tournaments. But it has to be more solid.

This is my current list:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
4 Forest

4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves (might bump it to 4 instead of a Priest of Titania)
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Progenitus


4 Natural Order
4 Cabal Therapy (it's nice to blind therapy and wreck their hand from goyf/force etc)

SB:
3 Absolute Law
4 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Woodfall Primus
3 Choke
1 Acidic Slime

The list is pretty straight forward... But I do miss the power of Vanquisher in the deck, sometimes deathtouch is out right needed against goyfs and other powerhoses... or even other elves that has a body (none that even exist).
I've even checked some NO targets that's worth playing... but nothing is as good as Progenitus obviously...

Would like some suggestions on how to make this better? Or is it just better to put it to sleep and get another deck? Hope not...

[Di]

Your maindeck is only 59 cards. I imagine a land, presumably the 3rd Bayou, is missing. If that were the case it'd be exactly the same as the list I just ran at the last Eli's $1500 event where I top8'd. Although I'm tweaking it slightly now, it's still a solid list overall.

I'm still not impressed with Vanquisher though. It's got a big body and deathtouch is nice, but it's the weakest card in the deck if it's run at all. My turn 2 will have a better play 90% of the time because it'll either have a Priest, Lord, or Therapy action going on. Given the nature of the deck to swarm the opponent quite easily thanks to Messenger and 8 Priest effects, I haven't felt the need for removal to take down a Goyf. We can easily chump block, or use Symbiote + blocker to keep it at bay forever. Plus half the time they can't afford to attack because they'll be taking 10+ the following turn.

I'm just surprised people would think to changing the list outright after it just hit this stage in development. I literally went to this build just under a month ago, and had my first large event with it a week ago, with a top8 finish to boot. I just fail to see why it's being dismissed so quickly without people giving it a shot at tournament play.

[Tivon]

The only thing I don't like about the list is the dropping of Survivals a day after I bought them. I've proxied the survival-less list a bit, and I agree that it is a lot more consistent and more well rounded.

And I've found that as big as vanquishers body is, I rarely played him even in the older mirror entity build as there was almost always something better in hand to play.

[Valtrix]

So, I apologize with not reading this thread much, but the deck has interested me. Mostly, I'm curious if it's possible to run 1-2 survivals. I feel like that they wouldn't clog up your hand, and you wouldn't need to run specific cards to abuse its power, since basically just being able to fetch messengers and lords seems good enough. You could also recycle progenitus if you really needed to.

Just a thought.

[Hawdes]

Your maindeck is only 59 cards. I imagine a land, presumably the 3rd Bayou, is missing. If that were the case it'd be exactly the same as the list I just ran at the last Eli's $1500 event where I top8'd. Although I'm tweaking it slightly now, it's still a solid list overall.

I'm still not impressed with Vanquisher though. It's got a big body and deathtouch is nice, but it's the weakest card in the deck if it's run at all. My turn 2 will have a better play 90% of the time because it'll either have a Priest, Lord, or Therapy action going on. Given the nature of the deck to swarm the opponent quite easily thanks to Messenger and 8 Priest effects, I haven't felt the need for removal to take down a Goyf. We can easily chump block, or use Symbiote + blocker to keep it at bay forever. Plus half the time they can't afford to attack because they'll be taking 10+ the following turn.

I'm just surprised people would think to changing the list outright after it just hit this stage in development. I literally went to this build just under a month ago, and had my first large event with it a week ago, with a top8 finish to boot. I just fail to see why it's being dismissed so quickly without people giving it a shot at tournament play.

You are correct, a land is missing, more exact a Bayou. To be quite honest I tested one of your previous takes on the switch from SotF to black with Therapy and worked from that. Mainly adressing to the sideboard and testing the maindeck.
I think the maindeck runs pretty well except for some occational mana screw with wastes. The creature I feel have the least impact on the game are the playset of Elvish Champions. I've been thinking of a 10 lord list, decreasing the Elvish Champions to two and instead put in two Wren Run's Packmasters. They can simply win games and have a 5/5 body to go with, and the champion an elf isn't that bad if you have success in championing a Messenger. I'd rather have more beef than +1/+1 and forestwalk, since I think that the Champion is one of the least effective lords in the deck. But that's just my opinion.
The packmaster would satisfy my deathtouch desire aswell since wolves gets deathtouch and could easily take out those fatties that I simply hate. And even coming in at cmc 4, it's a bit hard for Counterbalance to hit it if I'm not misstaken?
The Priest of Titania and Archdruid could easily fuel the Packmaster with mana to produce these wicked wolves, since we have no other place to put our massive mana production.

And since you mention that you're suprised that people won't even try out the list without SotF, it may be because of the "versitility" that SotF gives the deck. I can only speak for myself, but I want tempo and I personally felt that the SotF engine was too slow and only worked well while the opponent had a bad hand or draw or if I myself was winning.
Against decks like Tempothresh, Zoo and other fast decks that can control you easily, it felt like a dead draw and was very unimpressive.

[Teumie]

So suddenly this thread got alive :o) me like :o)

Anyway:
- regarding tournament play: I missed a big tournament a few weeks ago, but I would have played with Di's build ...;
- however, when I play 'locally', I play against some of the better players in Belgium, so i find it rather representative;
- my experience with the deck could be caused by the above (players are just better than me) or by my playing style and especially mulligan style. I find myself often really doubting about keeping a hand and I think I should more often mulligan, but to be honest ... I lack the balls ... :s
- the option of including 2 packmasters indeed looks good, I really liked the card in the survival build, however, we should be carefull about to many 3CC and 4CC creatures/spells. Having an opening hand with 2 land, 3 3CC and 2 4CC creatures is no good ...
- what do you guys do about chalice @ 1? I really hate it and there is not a lot to be done about it i guess (except SB, but that alreasy slows you down a lot). any thoughts?

@ Di, you said you were tweaking your deck after your top 8, care for any insights?

- I know the champions are the weakest of the lords, but I just like to be able to cast lord after lord after lord ... (when the first and second get countered or blown away you can just keep getting them out) I am afraid that when cutting 1 or 2 lords, we will loose some of that pressure.

but then again, I can be mistaken ...

Cheers

[Di]

So, I apologize with not reading this thread much, but the deck has interested me. Mostly, I'm curious if it's possible to run 1-2 survivals. I feel like that they wouldn't clog up your hand, and you wouldn't need to run specific cards to abuse its power, since basically just being able to fetch messengers and lords seems good enough. You could also recycle progenitus if you really needed to.

Just a thought.

Survival itself wasn't the entire reason for clunky draws, it was moreso on Squee, Anger, and to a lesser extent Viridian Zealot (just a weak creature despite lord buffs). Opening a hand with either of those red cards essentially turned it into a mulligan, and they were terrible topdecks. Running only 1-2 of Survival won't really add much to the deck as you still need to add the additional red cards to supplement it, and it won't be consistent enough to have much of an impact. Worse of all, with only 2 Survival you'd have fewer outs to do anything with a drawn Squee or Anger, which was the issue in the first place. Right now it just doesn't offer anything that we don't already have to improve our bad matchups, so it isn't worth running.


You are correct, a land is missing, more exact a Bayou. To be quite honest I tested one of your previous takes on the switch from SotF to black with Therapy and worked from that. Mainly adressing to the sideboard and testing the maindeck.
I think the maindeck runs pretty well except for some occational mana screw with wastes. The creature I feel have the least impact on the game are the playset of Elvish Champions. I've been thinking of a 10 lord list, decreasing the Elvish Champions to two and instead put in two Wren Run's Packmasters. They can simply win games and have a 5/5 body to go with, and the champion an elf isn't that bad if you have success in championing a Messenger. I'd rather have more beef than +1/+1 and forestwalk, since I think that the Champion is one of the least effective lords in the deck. But that's just my opinion.
The packmaster would satisfy my deathtouch desire aswell since wolves gets deathtouch and could easily take out those fatties that I simply hate. And even coming in at cmc 4, it's a bit hard for Counterbalance to hit it if I'm not misstaken?
The Priest of Titania and Archdruid could easily fuel the Packmaster with mana to produce these wicked wolves, since we have no other place to put our massive mana production.

And since you mention that you're suprised that people won't even try out the list without SotF, it may be because of the "versitility" that SotF gives the deck. I can only speak for myself, but I want tempo and I personally felt that the SotF engine was too slow and only worked well while the opponent had a bad hand or draw or if I myself was winning.
Against decks like Tempothresh, Zoo and other fast decks that can control you easily, it felt like a dead draw and was very unimpressive.

Elvish Champion is easily the weakest lord in the deck, no argument there. Forestwalk is decent but isn't gamebreaking compared to the abilities of the other two. I myself went down to 3 in favor of the 8th Llanowar Elf as I wanted more consistent turn 1 accelerants, and I've been liking it a lot. Wren's Run Packmaster is a solid replacement as well. It can be a bit slow because of its high casting cost and occasionally be a bad topdeck, but I can contest that it's amazing at virtually all aspects of the game. I'm a bit wary to run them as I've been trying to keep the curve as low as possible and these are more expensive than their replacements, but it's a solid card, much better than Vanquisher imo.

Your analysis on the weakness of Survival is also echoes my statements pretty much verbatim on the subject. I found it to be great in matchups that were in my favor or I was already winning, but in the tough, fast matchups it was far too slow to make an impact, thus I cut it in favor of a much faster, more aggressive card engine, and the deck's worked much, much better as a result.



- my experience with the deck could be caused by the above (players are just better than me) or by my playing style and especially mulligan style. I find myself often really doubting about keeping a hand and I think I should more often mulligan, but to be honest ... I lack the balls ... :s
- the option of including 2 packmasters indeed looks good, I really liked the card in the survival build, however, we should be carefull about to many 3CC and 4CC creatures/spells. Having an opening hand with 2 land, 3 3CC and 2 4CC creatures is no good ...
- what do you guys do about chalice @ 1? I really hate it and there is not a lot to be done about it i guess (except SB, but that alreasy slows you down a lot). any thoughts?

@ Di, you said you were tweaking your deck after your top 8, care for any insights?

- I know the champions are the weakest of the lords, but I just like to be able to cast lord after lord after lord ... (when the first and second get countered or blown away you can just keep getting them out) I am afraid that when cutting 1 or 2 lords, we will loose some of that pressure.



The issue with mulligans and keeping potentially risky hands comes down to experience with the deck. It's just a matter of testing the deck enough to be aware of what you can do in certain situations, such as open a one-land hand, or open a hand without a turn one play, and calculate odds on what you can draw to help the situation out within the next 1-2 turns. If it isn't in your favor, then it's probably best to ship it back. Just play with the deck more and more to figure out exactly what to do in these situations, and it'll eventually come natural to you.

The Wren's Run Packmaster concern with CC is an issue I've mentioned a bit without it even in the deck. The deck can occasionally open a hand clogged with lords, Messengers, and Orders and be forced to ship it back because it won't have a turn 1-2 play. Adding another expensive threat can potentially add to this problem, but testing the deck a bit more will tell us what we can do. However I will add that in a build featuring Packmaster, I'd be inclined to add another mana source or two to make up for the additional weight in casting cost.

Chalice of the Void can be an issue, but it is really only strong against you if it's @ 1 on turn 1 when they're on the play. If they get it down before you have a turn 1 mana elf, then it could be an issue, but if you have one down before that, then you'll be ok because you can still hit 3 mana by turn 2. Otherwise, it can only be an issue if you happen to have a hand cluttered with 1cc cards, which can happen given 1/3 of the deck is them, but the important thing is that you still have access to 3cc. As long as you hit 3cc against a Chalice deck, you're in good hands. Plus if it's that big of an issue, you can always sideboard Krosan Grip to help deal with it.


Regarding my list changes, the only maindeck change I've really worked on and like is +1 Llanowar Elves -1 Elvish Champion. It frees up some of the lord-clogged hands, while giving me more consistent turn 1 elves. The power decrease from losing that elf is really minimal though, so it isn't something to worry about. The sideboard, as always, is still in a state of flux. It's changing around to tailor what I predict the metagame to be like, so I don't really have any comments regarding that.

[Hawdes]

So suddenly this thread got alive :o) me like :o)

Anyway:
- regarding tournament play: I missed a big tournament a few weeks ago, but I would have played with Di's build ...;
- however, when I play 'locally', I play against some of the better players in Belgium, so i find it rather representative;
- my experience with the deck could be caused by the above (players are just better than me) or by my playing style and especially mulligan style. I find myself often really doubting about keeping a hand and I think I should more often mulligan, but to be honest ... I lack the balls ... :s
- the option of including 2 packmasters indeed looks good, I really liked the card in the survival build, however, we should be carefull about to many 3CC and 4CC creatures/spells. Having an opening hand with 2 land, 3 3CC and 2 4CC creatures is no good ...
- what do you guys do about chalice @ 1? I really hate it and there is not a lot to be done about it i guess (except SB, but that alreasy slows you down a lot). any thoughts?

@ Di, you said you were tweaking your deck after your top 8, care for any insights?

- I know the champions are the weakest of the lords, but I just like to be able to cast lord after lord after lord ... (when the first and second get countered or blown away you can just keep getting them out) I am afraid that when cutting 1 or 2 lords, we will loose some of that pressure.

but then again, I can be mistaken ...

Cheers

I've been going through the different scenarios in my head over and over... Yet I come to the same reasoning... Either you go with 12 lords and hope that something sticks so that you can swarm them, which is very unlikley if you play against a good player or especially decks like Tempothresh or Zoo (I never been able to swarm a good tempothresh player or a good Zoo player). Tempothresh only has to concentrate the counters towards Priests and Archdruid, this holds your mana generation back and you won't be able to cast more than a creature a turn if you're lucky. I've been in situations where I'm at two lands (after been wasted/stifled) and have two llanowar/fyndhorn out... This is very shaky since all they have to do is get a bolt or fire//ice to cut you back on mana even more. Don't talk about Zoo that has the upper hand against this deck due to the fact that they pack bolts, meanwhile the elf deck has no removal what so ever. If you would be able to resolve a packmaster against Zoo, you can take down their creatures one by one and even put your mana into pumping out wolves. You have to be careful though and not missplay here since it's crucial to survive.

That's why I feel that the packmaster is more appealing to me rather than playing the 11th and 12th lord, since they often don't matter in the matchups I desperatly need to win. I know that Packmaster requires other creatures in play, but that's hardly a problem when playing elves. You will most likely have a llanowar elf or something against the problemdecks, then I rather topdeck a packmaster than a champion.
And besides, we need something to spend our mana on when we can't recur or do our shinnanigans with Sylvan Messenger. I rather make wolves to chump/attack with than just sit there and wait for Sylvan Messenger to stick or to be topdecked.

[Hawdes]

Just want to let you guys know that I will try my list out on a online tournament. The list I will be running will be:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
4 Forest

4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
2 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Progenitus
2 Wren's Run Packmaster

4 Natural Order
4 Cabal Therapy

SB:
3 Absolute Law
4 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Woodfall Primus
3 Choke
1 Acidic Slime

I will report my results and thoughts, although the tournament is an elimination tournament. So I hope I'll do good. I expect to be up against a lot of bluebased tempodecks, Countertop and Zoo aswell. They are quite popular in my meta.
There might be some ANT or TEES decks but I'll hope that I don't have to face them.
Now I get to try out the Packmaster and see if it fits. Might bring it down to 1 if it clogs up too much and add a fourth Fyndhorn.
I've been thinking all night of how to add more sources of mana (lands), but it's difficult to touch the list. Might have to go up to 19 lands since the addition of packmasters?
I dunno... I will get back to you.

[beastman]

I would cut at least one packmaster for another Champion.

[Hawdes]

Just want to let you guys know that I will try my list out on a online tournament. The list I will be running will be:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
4 Forest

4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
2 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Progenitus
2 Wren's Run Packmaster

4 Natural Order
4 Cabal Therapy

SB:
3 Absolute Law
4 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Woodfall Primus
3 Choke
1 Acidic Slime

I will report my results and thoughts, although the tournament is an elimination tournament. So I hope I'll do good. I expect to be up against a lot of bluebased tempodecks, Countertop and Zoo aswell. They are quite popular in my meta.
There might be some ANT or TEES decks but I'll hope that I don't have to face them.
Now I get to try out the Packmaster and see if it fits. Might bring it down to 1 if it clogs up too much and add a fourth Fyndhorn.
I've been thinking all night of how to add more sources of mana (lands), but it's difficult to touch the list. Might have to go up to 19 lands since the addition of packmasters?
I dunno... I will get back to you.

Due to workrelated issues, I had to turn down the tournament...
Although I will test the same list on MWS on friday/saturday and will come with the results from that. I'll be playing against a wide variety of decks and hopefully get some good statistics to report.

[Esper3k]

With the Survivalless version, I've been messing around with Bramblewood Paragon and playing Wren's Run Vanquishers (I even experimented around with Talara's Batallion).

Paragon has been interesting so far - it's almost like another lord out with Imperious Perfect and Vanquishers, but the nice thing is that the guys it boosted keep their pumps even if they kill the Paragon.

[Azania]

With the Survivalless version, I've been messing around with Bramblewood Paragon and playing Wren's Run Vanquishers (I even experimented around with Talara's Batallion).

Paragon has been interesting so far - it's almost like another lord out with Imperious Perfect and Vanquishers, but the nice thing is that the guys it boosted keep their pumps even if they kill the Paragon.

I tested the paragon as well and ended up cutting him. On its own is just pretty weak and the deck does not run enough warriors to be able to give it a proper boost. Only advantage is the mana cost of 2.

[Teumie]

Just dropped out of a tourney (30 ppls), my limited report:

I played Di's list with +1 llanowar and -1 champion (as he does/did), however, i played another 3 forests instead of the wastelands (i found myself to manascrewed sometimes and the wastelands never made me win a game that i would have otherwise lost).
SB something like:
3 krosan grip
3 tsunami
3 absolute law
1 teeg
1 loaming shaman
2 jitte
2 progenitus graveyard hate (cannot get the name atm ...)

1st opponent, a friend of mine who playes merfolk, we are already laughing that i will win this game.
game 1: i do not go very hard and by turn 3/4 he has 3 lords and wakethrasher and pounds me
game2: I go crazy with messenger bounces and lots of mana and he scoops
game3: i see 2 tsunami's, nothing much else (neither does he) but he has a waketrasher that eventually kills me ...

2nd opponent: enchantress (yesterday i was thinking about siding 1 simic skyswallower for this matchup, but in the end, didn't because i didn't think i would run into it ...) there was 1 enchantress deck so it was my luck
game 1: i cabal therapy him, see nothing special, beat him to 10 or something and then he drops moat ... scoop
game 2: i open with a good hand including a krosan grip. he tutors for a drop of honey which he plays on his 2nd turn. i go rather fast and beat him to 11, in his fourth turn he fetches to 10 and casts moat. in my turn I grip the moat and beat him to 1, in his turn he plays his second moat (he only played 2 and got them both in his opening hand...)
I cannot find a grip the next turn, and he gives all his enchantments shroud ... good game ...

next round i get a bye and go home ...

all in all, i was rather happy with the deck. in my opinion, the 3 extra forests provide more consistency

changes to the deck: main: nothing much
side: +1 simic skyswallower, +1 tsunami, +1 absolute law

[Kanti]

Elvish Champion is easily the weakest lord in the deck, no argument there. Forestwalk is decent but isn't gamebreaking compared to the abilities of the other two. I myself went down to 3 in favor of the 8th Llanowar Elf as I wanted more consistent turn 1 accelerants, and I've been liking it a lot. Wren's Run Packmaster is a solid replacement as well. It can be a bit slow because of its high casting cost and occasionally be a bad topdeck, but I can contest that it's amazing at virtually all aspects of the game. I'm a bit wary to run them as I've been trying to keep the curve as low as possible and these are more expensive than their replacements, but it's a solid card, much better than Vanquisher imo.


Yeah man, Champion sucks so much, I hate playing it against Thresh, its so win-more. Having your dudes pumped out of Fire/Ice range, and become unblockable isnt gamebreaking at all.

Does your meta really not consist of atleast 50% Thresh?

[Di]

Yeah man, Champion sucks so much, I hate playing it against Thresh, its so win-more. Having your dudes pumped out of Fire/Ice range, and become unblockable isnt gamebreaking at all.

Does your meta really not consist of atleast 50% Thresh?

No. However, if you're honestly worried about sitting across from a deck with 8 creatures with your 30 creature, 11-12 lord, 4 Natural Order deck then maybe you're just doing something wrong. I'll at least let your sarcasm be dully noted.

You're an aggressive deck; aggro-control strategies are easy for you to prey on because you swarm them very quickly. Just because forestwalk is great against Threshold doesn't make it any better compared to the other lords. Imperious Perfect is the strongest card in the deck besides Natural Order. It's token-generating ability is by far the most useful of the lords because it creates an army by itself, and with a Ranger or Symbiote it gets insane. Archdruid increases the speed and consistency of the deck and puts the deck over the top if you're able to untap with it in play on turn 2-3. Compare that to Elvish Champion, with the ability that is limited to being good in selective matchups. I'm not going to denounce Elvish Champion as bad because it's still an amazing card, but it isn't amazing in every matchup where the other two retain their full potential. As far as cutting down the number of lords go, I'd cut it before the others for that reason alone.

[Kuma]

side: +1 simic skyswallower

Why are you running a second Natural Order target? And why the heck is Simic Sky Swallower better than a second Progenitus?

[Teumie]

Why are you running a second Natural Order target? And why the heck is Simic Sky Swallower better than a second Progenitus?

Moat?

Without a flyer, moat is game ... (especially if it gets shroud ...)

[Hawdes]

Moat?

Without a flyer, moat is game ... (especially if it gets shroud ...)

That's why I think Empyrial Archangel is better since it comes in against Zoo aswell, which is better than Simic Skyswallower imo...
Empyrial + Absolute law makes all bolts to the dome worthless and combined with Wirewood Symbiote/Quirion Rangers, you can block the goyfs all day long while you swing with your team for the win.

[Teumie]

yeah, i'm still doubting between skyswallower and archangel.
For the enchantress matchup, i guess the skyswallower is better, for zoo/gobo's, archangel is indeed better, so i figure in my meta, archangel is indeed the better choice ;-)

[Esper3k]

That's why I think Empyrial Archangel is better since it comes in against Zoo aswell, which is better than Simic Skyswallower imo...
Empyrial + Absolute law makes all bolts to the dome worthless and combined with Wirewood Symbiote/Quirion Rangers, you can block the goyfs all day long while you swing with your team for the win.

Just to note - you can't actually untap the Empyrial Archangel with Wirewood Symbiote/Quirion Rangers due to its shroud.

[Hawdes]

Just to note - you can't actually untap the Empyrial Archangel with Wirewood Symbiote/Quirion Rangers due to its shroud.

Wasn't implying that you untap the Archangel with the symbiote nor ranger. Was implying that you could block the goyfs with Symbiote/Ranger shinnanigans at the same time that you have prot. red and Archangel on your side which makes most creatures in Zoo, Aggro Loam etc. not that scary.

[beastman]

If you have to worry about moats in your meta, why don't you try to play a couple of zealots?

[Esper3k]

Wasn't implying that you untap the Archangel with the symbiote nor ranger. Was implying that you could block the goyfs with Symbiote/Ranger shinnanigans at the same time that you have prot. red and Archangel on your side which makes most creatures in Zoo, Aggro Loam etc. not that scary.

Oh ok. How do you block Goyfs all day with a Ranger though? I understand Symbiotes bouncing elves, but Ranger?

[Hawdes]

Oh ok. How do you block Goyfs all day with a Ranger though? I understand Symbiotes bouncing elves, but Ranger?

Untap a token, chump. Ofc you need to have made tokens before. But we always talk hypothetical.

[Esper3k]

Untap a token, chump. Ofc you need to have made tokens before. But we always talk hypothetical.

Ok, you left the Perfect out of your previous post, which was the source of the confusion. :)

[Di]

Even without the Perfect, just having blockers is enough. The Angel is a 4-turn clock on its own and being able to chump guys in order to protect her will pretty much guarantee a win. Given you should be able to crank out creature after creature, you should be able to block them just fine unless they happen to draw enough remove to kill all your blockers at once and alpha strike to kill her, but even then that's rare.

However, I feel in almost all circumstances getting Progenitus is a better play. Empyrial Archangel is pretty much only better if you're very low on life and need to stay out of burn range. Their creatures are usually much larger than ours because of removal hitting the lords, so within a couple turns they can take down the angel anyway. I'm much more comfortable playing Progenitus and simply racing them, which has worked a good amount of the time. Progenitus itself time walks them as they aren't going to throw creatures in front of it, but they can take down the angel if they have a couple creatures and a burn spell. Instead, putting them on a 2-turn clock is a bit stronger because odds are you'll be able to dump out 1-2 more creatures the following turn to block, then win the game the turn after.

[Hawdes]

Even without the Perfect, just having blockers is enough. The Angel is a 4-turn clock on its own and being able to chump guys in order to protect her will pretty much guarantee a win. Given you should be able to crank out creature after creature, you should be able to block them just fine unless they happen to draw enough remove to kill all your blockers at once and alpha strike to kill her, but even then that's rare.

However, I feel in almost all circumstances getting Progenitus is a better play. Empyrial Archangel is pretty much only better if you're very low on life and need to stay out of burn range. Their creatures are usually much larger than ours because of removal hitting the lords, so within a couple turns they can take down the angel anyway. I'm much more comfortable playing Progenitus and simply racing them, which has worked a good amount of the time. Progenitus itself time walks them as they aren't going to throw creatures in front of it, but they can take down the angel if they have a couple creatures and a burn spell. Instead, putting them on a 2-turn clock is a bit stronger because odds are you'll be able to dump out 1-2 more creatures the following turn to block, then win the game the turn after.

I'm just curious... Absolute Law is THE card we sideboard against Zoo and burn/red heavy decks. Doesn't this, incorperated with our Archangel, make us unkillable against Zoo (except for Nactl and Goyf)? All bolts to the head will be redirected to Archangel and damage prevented due to Absolute Law giving prot. red.
That will be the saferun ofc.
Resolving progenitus is always good. But by the time you will be able to resolve NO into Prog you will most likely be pretty low on life, around 6-12? By that time I would rather have archangel. I've been playing against Zoo decks pretty much and my little pointy ear friends more than most gets struck by lightning and fire. Which slows this deck down a lot.
If you get the nuts draw and can power out a T2-3 Prog, then it's great to resolve.

[Di]

I'm just curious... Absolute Law is THE card we sideboard against Zoo and burn/red heavy decks. Doesn't this, incorperated with our Archangel, make us unkillable against Zoo (except for Nactl and Goyf)? All bolts to the head will be redirected to Archangel and damage prevented due to Absolute Law giving prot. red.
That will be the saferun ofc.
Resolving progenitus is always good. But by the time you will be able to resolve NO into Prog you will most likely be pretty low on life, around 6-12? By that time I would rather have archangel. I've been playing against Zoo decks pretty much and my little pointy ear friends more than most gets struck by lightning and fire. Which slows this deck down a lot.
If you get the nuts draw and can power out a T2-3 Prog, then it's great to resolve.


If you have to resolve Absolute Law and Natural Order in a single game against Zoo, quite frankly you could get either one and win the game.

If you resolve Natural Order and you're over 8 life, I would always get Progenitus. Odds are it won't be the only creature you have in play, and odds are when you cast it the opponent isn't going to be holding a hand full of burn, because it'd be going at your creatures before anything else. If you even have the ability to resolve Natural Order, the opponent most likely doesn't have removal in their hand at all, unless you managed to play a creature and Order in the same turn, which is unlikely. Because you know this, getting Progenitus is almost always the right play. Even if you're staring at a few creatures I'd prefer Progenitus if I'm over 6 life in the end. The scenarios can pretty much play out like this:

You have no other creatures in play and cast Order getting Progenitus. This tells you the opponent most likely isn't holding burn, because they would've used it to kill your blocker. So this can play out like so:

- They attack you with their team and lose a guy to Progenitus blocking. They play something. You follow up with what is most likely a creature to block with. They either kill you the following turn through that blocker or lose.

- They don't attack into Progenitus. You essentially time walk them and untap, play a blocker and then attack. They need to hope to somehow deal lethal through a blocker.

Granted it won't always play out like that, but had you gotten Empyrial Archangel without another creature, they merely attack the next turn with their team and kill it. Plus, an extra two turns would be needed to kill them, and they can also quite easily kill the Angel within the following turns after that. If you're in late game and cast Order, Angel will only save you if you have enough blockers to stop their creatures from damaging her, which won't be often. It's more often worth it to put them on a faster clock and have Progenitus block for a turn than hope Angel can get you there.

[Hawdes]

If you have to resolve Absolute Law and Natural Order in a single game against Zoo, quite frankly you could get either one and win the game.

If you resolve Natural Order and you're over 8 life, I would always get Progenitus. Odds are it won't be the only creature you have in play, and odds are when you cast it the opponent isn't going to be holding a hand full of burn, because it'd be going at your creatures before anything else. If you even have the ability to resolve Natural Order, the opponent most likely doesn't have removal in their hand at all, unless you managed to play a creature and Order in the same turn, which is unlikely. Because you know this, getting Progenitus is almost always the right play. Even if you're staring at a few creatures I'd prefer Progenitus if I'm over 6 life in the end. The scenarios can pretty much play out like this:

You have no other creatures in play and cast Order getting Progenitus. This tells you the opponent most likely isn't holding burn, because they would've used it to kill your blocker. So this can play out like so:

- They attack you with their team and lose a guy to Progenitus blocking. They play something. You follow up with what is most likely a creature to block with. They either kill you the following turn through that blocker or lose.

- They don't attack into Progenitus. You essentially time walk them and untap, play a blocker and then attack. They need to hope to somehow deal lethal through a blocker.

Granted it won't always play out like that, but had you gotten Empyrial Archangel without another creature, they merely attack the next turn with their team and kill it. Plus, an extra two turns would be needed to kill them, and they can also quite easily kill the Angel within the following turns after that. If you're in late game and cast Order, Angel will only save you if you have enough blockers to stop their creatures from damaging her, which won't be often. It's more often worth it to put them on a faster clock and have Progenitus block for a turn than hope Angel can get you there.

But if I have Absolute Law and get attacked by Kird Apes etc. and only have a Archangel in play, if I take that damage and redirect it to Archangel, does it still count as damage from a red source and thus prevented? Or will this kill the archangel even though I redirect leathal damage to the angel?

[Di]

The damage will be prevented. However, that's still an incredibly narrow situation, and it still doesn't account for the Nacatls, Tarmogoyfs, Pridemages, and KotR that will still be attacking. Even with Absolute Law, it isn't difficult for them to attack high enough to kill the angel, and odds are they'll eventually get enough to kill it. If they alpha strike with green creatures you'll either lose the angel or lose your other creatures blocking them, then lose the angel the following turn, while only getting in 2-3 attack phases with it, which most likely isn't going to kill them.

[Hawdes]

The damage will be prevented. However, that's still an incredibly narrow situation, and it still doesn't account for the Nacatls, Tarmogoyfs, Pridemages, and KotR that will still be attacking. Even with Absolute Law, it isn't difficult for them to attack high enough to kill the angel, and odds are they'll eventually get enough to kill it. If they alpha strike with green creatures you'll either lose the angel or lose your other creatures blocking them, then lose the angel the following turn, while only getting in 2-3 attack phases with it, which most likely isn't going to kill them.

Ah, I see where you're going... So you should only get Archangel with NO when you're really low?
Which means when you're up against Zoo/Burn Sligh or whatever, you board +3 Absolute Law + 1 Empyrial Archangel? And of course leave progenitus in.
Or would I benefit to board something else to increase my win chances?
As of now my board looks like this:

3 Absolute Law
4 Krosan Grip
1 Acidic Slime (Used against Glacial Chasm and other lands that could be troublesome)
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Woodfall Primus
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Choke

[Teumie]

just from my side, I would side in archangel against enchantress.
I wouldn't be too sure against zoo.
be ware that the absolute law will probably not last long in a game against zoo since they mostly play 4 of the exalted guys ...

[Di]

Ah, I see where you're going... So you should only get Archangel with NO when you're really low?
Which means when you're up against Zoo/Burn Sligh or whatever, you board +3 Absolute Law + 1 Empyrial Archangel? And of course leave progenitus in.
Or would I benefit to board something else to increase my win chances?
As of now my board looks like this:

3 Absolute Law
4 Krosan Grip
1 Acidic Slime (Used against Glacial Chasm and other lands that could be troublesome)
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Woodfall Primus
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Choke

Not quite. I'm saying you shouldn't even run it at all. You'll get Empyrial Archangel maybe 20% of the time against Zoo, and in every other matchup outside of straight Burn Progenitus is the better creature. The number of occasions you even bother getting Empyrial Archangel are incredibly minimal, and it isn't worth the sideboard slot. Speaking of which, I question your sideboard a bit as you have no outs against any graveyard-based decks and have a high number of Natural Order targets that are situational and generally inferior to Progenitus.

[Hawdes]

Not quite. I'm saying you shouldn't even run it at all. You'll get Empyrial Archangel maybe 20% of the time against Zoo, and in every other matchup outside of straight Burn Progenitus is the better creature. The number of occasions you even bother getting Empyrial Archangel are incredibly minimal, and it isn't worth the sideboard slot. Speaking of which, I question your sideboard a bit as you have no outs against any graveyard-based decks and have a high number of Natural Order targets that are situational and generally inferior to Progenitus.

That's true, although Ichorid or other GY decks haven't seen much play in the meta over here. I don't know which GY hate would be best if those decks would rise in popularity, Relic of Progenitus or Crypt? I can't think of other GY hate that would be played easily, except for Loaming Shaman.
The reason I run Empyrial Archangel might be very narrow but it can fly over moats when Progenitus just sits there and watches. Ofc I have the Krosan Grips to come in against those enchantments, but then again, it's not tutorable. I will drop the Empyrial Archangel sooner or later when I come to realize that it doesn't pull it's weight.

What would you suggest for a board (I've given up on boarding against combo decks since it's a almost impossible matchup either way)? I think that I would keep Woodfall Primus in the board since his interaction in the deck is great, with Cabal Therapies and being able to tutor for it with NO.
The Acidic Slime got a place in the board ever since I played against some people that were running Glacial Chasm in their decks (and I couldn't seem to get Wasteland when I needed it the most). Glacial Chasm hoses this deck when it's run in a Exploration shell with recursion.

If I were to change my board, I would remove Acidic Slime and Empyrial Archangel and open up two more slots, but I dunno what this would be. Relics/Loaming Shamans? Or something else and just ignore GY based decks since I don't face that many?

I'm all ears for any suggestions and card discussions, especially when you more than often explain pros/cons.

[Radiant]

[...] I think that I would keep Woodfall Primus in the board since his interaction in the deck is great, with Cabal Therapies and being able to tutor for it with NO.
The Acidic Slime got a place in the board ever since I played against some people that were running Glacial Chasm in their decks [...]

But you know that Woodfall Primus does the same job Acidic Slime does?
Against Glacial Chasm the higher CC shouldn't be relevant, as you simply sit on a horde of mana-producing Elves while attacking would be useless.
I would always prefer the bigger body of WP.

Against Enchantress you need a flyer or some "destroy all enchantments" right before you are able to alpha-strike them. I know,.. Enchantress doesn't see much play these days, but it is a constant threat here. So is Stupid Burn. So my board differs a bit as it consists 1 Empyrial Archangel & 0-3 Reverent Silence/Tranquility/Tranquil Domain (I'm not set on a particular one yet).

[Hawdes]

But you know that Woodfall Primus does the same job Acidic Slime does?
Against Glacial Chasm the higher CC shouldn't be relevant, as you simply sit on a horde of mana-producing Elves while attacking would be useless.
I would always prefer the bigger body of WP.

Against Enchantress you need a flyer or some "destroy all enchantments" right before you are able to alpha-strike them. I know,.. Enchantress doesn't see much play these days, but it is a constant threat here. So is Stupid Burn. So my board differs a bit as it consists 1 Empyrial Archangel & 0-3 Reverent Silence/Tranquility/Tranquil Domain (I'm not set on a particular one yet).

When I read your post I just had to check out woodfall and compare it with acidic. I was convinced Woodfall hit "nonland permanents" but it can't hit creatures... Now that I've settled that, Acidic is out. :)
Was just a matter of time until I would've noticed.

I still like the fact that Empyrial Archangel has flying and shroud, which makes it a better NO target against decks packing Moats etc.
I don't feel very comfortable with to rely on 4 krosan grip to turn my game against a Moat.

I just want to mention something. How do you play against a deck that resolves a Ioona on "green" against this deck? You basically scoop? I can't imagine running creature removal in my board other than StP/PtE since we have the white mana.

[Radiant]

I just want to mention something. How do you play against a deck that resolves a Ioona on "green" against this deck? You basically scoop? I can't imagine running creature removal in my board other than StP/PtE since we have the white mana.

I'd just play Virtue's Ruin and laugh. :wink:
Nay, I just like unconventional cards...

I've always wished for some creature-removal, but it's not needed so often, as you can outpower single creatures with a mass of yours, or luckily pick them with Therapy out of the hand before they see play (in the Survival-less version).
'til now I don't see any decks packing Iona MD for sure. I've seen it only in Reanimator so far, but I don't read all threads here.

[Di]

I just want to mention something. How do you play against a deck that resolves a Ioona on "green" against this deck? You basically scoop? I can't imagine running creature removal in my board other than StP/PtE since we have the white mana.

Well, we have graveyard hate to hit her before shes reanimated, so that helps if we can get that online. Otherwise, I'd run Eyeblight's Ending in my sideboard if it became a problem.

[junor]

hey, been testing his deck quite a bit now with some friends of mine and am quite pleased with its performance against thresh and goyf sligh and pikula.
however i've been losing more than not to goblins with i feel should have been an atleast equal matchup. been wondering if its just me or if this mu really sucks so much. my friend plays with Stingscourger and some removal, so i keep getting my blockers bounced or removed for the lackey to run though. recovery after that is sometimes possible but not often.
do you think its worth taking about enginered plague instead of the therapys in that mu? or any other suggestions?

[beastman]

hey, been testing his deck quite a bit now with some friends of mine and am quite pleased with its performance against thresh and goyf sligh and pikula.
however i've been losing more than not to goblins with i feel should have been an atleast equal matchup. been wondering if its just me or if this mu really sucks so much. my friend plays with Stingscourger and some removal, so i keep getting my blockers bounced or removed for the lackey to run though. recovery after that is sometimes possible but not often.
do you think its worth taking about enginered plague instead of the therapys in that mu? or any other suggestions?

You have more lords than them. And with lords, your guys are bigger. If you're having trouble with the matchup, try a couple jittes in the board.

[Di]

You have more lords than them. And with lords, your guys are bigger. If you're having trouble with the matchup, try a couple jittes in the board.

Absolute Law also helps this matchup. And by that, I mean it makes it insanely good. They essentially can't win through it unless they run something like Perish. The fact that we swarm incredibly well and faster than them barring they getting the nuts, gives us the edge in that matchup. Plus, they have serious issue dealing with you if Progenitus is on the table by turn 3-4. The only ways I've really lost this matchup is under these narrow conditions:

- You're on the draw, they have a turn 1 Lackey, turn 2 removal spell for blocker and happen to have the nutty Piledriver draw.

- You're on the draw without a turn 1 play.

- You're on the play without a turn 1 or two play.

Otherwise, you match all their card advantage very well and much quicker than them, and have Natural Order. If you're on the play have a turn 2 lord, an Elvish Archdruid none the less, it is going to be very difficult for them to win when you are dropping your hand turn 3.

[Teumie]

imo, Di is right about the gobo's matchup.
normally we only lose when their first 2 turns are good (i.e. lackey + removal/no T1 drop for us).
If they cannot rush us in turn 2 or 3, then we will have bigger creatures and likely also more of them ...

sideing absolute law against them is just insane, especially since most of them are playing RB and not a lot of RGB anymore
that plus jitte is just game :o)

[Hawdes]

I'm just wondering why people don't play Planar Void as grave hate? I believe it's very effective for only B against the decks that matters, aggro loam, ichorid etc.

[beastman]

Relic draws you a card, and it doesnt require black to play.

[Hawdes]

Relic draws you a card, and it doesnt require black to play.

Although Planar Void isn't a one use activation and access to T1 black isn't that hard to establish against ichorid or other gravedecks.

Maybe the cantrip from Relic is that important, but they serve different roles imo.

[TheBirdMan]

I'm just wondering why people don't play Planar Void as grave hate? I believe it's very effective for only B against the decks that matters, aggro loam, ichorid etc.

I play 3 Extirpates sb, Since I have had bad experiences with playing permanent hate and them getting chain of vapored.

[lorddotm]

Would Nissa be just horrible here?

[Nidd]

Would Nissa be just horrible here?
Yes. Nissa is a very niche Planeswalker and she is bad in this deck.

[Hawdes]

Would Nissa be just horrible here?

There are no plainswalker that would fit in any Elf deck at the moment in my opinion. Nissa has no great impact on the game and flips the gamestate once she hits the board.
And her ability to fetch Nissa's Chosen feels kind of junk when Nissa's Chosen is almost a vanilla 2/3...

We need more power in our elves... Abilities that make a difference.

[Kuma]

Elvish Warrior has never even seen play in Standard.

Life gain is a weak strategy

It takes a minimum of six turns after you cast Nissa Revane to activate her ultimate ability and another turn before you can win with it.

No thanks. She's arguably the worst planeswalker Wizards has printed.

[Wargoos]

Di, is it possible that you update the op with your current list (i.e. the therapy list) and explain how the mu's possibly shifted?
Also would you advise building this over TES when I already have canadian threshold?
Regards,

[beastman]

I've been trying out the list without survivals for awhile, but I just don't find it strong enough.

My list is currently still running survivals, with 3 messengers in it, as I believe that they are what the deck really needs. With all the mana you should have on turn 4, being able to chain a few of them together to dump a bunch of dudes seems neccesary.

[beastman]

I won a mox pearl with Lol elf survival last sunday.

My current list:
16 land
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Forest
2x Taiga
2x Savannah

33 Creatures
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Imperious Perfect
4x Elvish Archdruid
3x Priest of Titania
3x Elvish Champion
3x Quirion Ranger
3x Sylvan Messenger
1x Viridian Zealot

Engine
4x Survival of the Fittest
1x Squee
1x Anger

Alternate Win
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus



The SB isn't down completely yet, but I know that there are at least 3 each of grips, absolute laws, chokes, and relic of pregenitus'. I'm currently also trying to fit goyf into the board for zoo and sligh matches.

[arebennian]

Pics (and report) or it didn't happen!

[Justin]

I won a mox pearl with Lol elf survival last sunday.

My current list:
16 land
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Forest
2x Taiga
2x Savannah

33 Creatures
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Fyndhorn Elves
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Imperious Perfect
4x Elvish Archdruid
3x Priest of Titania
3x Elvish Champion
3x Quirion Ranger
3x Sylvan Messenger
1x Viridian Zealot

Engine
4x Survival of the Fittest
1x Squee
1x Anger

Alternate Win
4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus



The SB isn't down completely yet, but I know that there are at least 3 each of grips, absolute laws, chokes, and relic of pregenitus'. I'm currently also trying to fit goyf into the board for zoo and sligh matches.

Nice job! This is almost my list exactly, with only a couple differences. I have 17 lands instead of 16 and don't play with Elvish Spirit Guide (instead a fourth Priest, Messenger, etc.). What cards worked for you and what didn't? Did you feel safe going down to only 16 lands? Did you find the ESGs to be worth it, especially when you didn't have a Natural Order along with them? After the tournament, are there any changes you would make to the deck?

[beastman]

I would definetely take goyfs out of the board and put in Absolute laws. I doubted the ESG's also, but at a tournament a little while ago, I talked to birdman and he sai they were one of the best cards in the deck, and they really are amazing. I wouldnt run 4 messengers, as they can be dead draws early game. I have three because that makes it possible to chain enough of them together with survival to just overwhelm any deck. I wanted the 4th priest, but I just couldn't find room.

[1maarten1]

@Di

I really like the direction your taking with the deck, but for some budget (and metagame) reasons im looking for a build that cuts white. So green/black no survival, could you perhaps point that out for me? :eek:
Or ofcourse someone else if you feel free to help! :wink:

~Maarten

[TheBirdMan]

I don't run white in my list I suppose for budget/wasteland reasons but the only white card Di runs is 1-2 Absolute law which you can substitute with Dense Foliage. i just run 7 fetches, 4 bayou and 8 forests, although Di runs -1 forest +1 llanowar which i suppose isnt a massive difference.

[troopatroop]

I don't run white in my list I suppose for budget/wasteland reasons but the only white card Di runs is 1-2 Absolute law which you can substitute with Dense Foliage. i just run 7 fetches, 4 bayou and 8 forests, although Di runs -1 forest +1 llanowar which i suppose isnt a massive difference.

Dense Foliage doesn't protect you from red sweepers. Firespout, Pyroclasm, and Volcanic Fallout. I'd consider Absolute Law to be alot better, but understand the budget restrictions.

[TheBirdMan]

It does stop the stps etc but law is great too, i think Di runs both

[leander?]

Isn't Wirewood Symbiote much better than Dense Foliage?

[Radiant]

Wirewood Symbiote is way much better than Dense Foliage, but if you really want such a mass-shroud thing, why not Steely Resolve? Okay... it doesn't work with Quirion Rangers, but it costs 1 mana less, against decks, that can bolt your 1st turn drop (L-/F-Elves) that becomes relevant.
AfaIk nobody plays Giant Growth-a-like cards in Legacy.
Or is it, because it shuts down Dreadnought & Stifle (edit: It doesn't) and would protect a Magus of the Moon from the Board.
'though sweepers really kill everything despite the shroud-thingy..

[Media314r8]

I've been testing Elf Survival, with a similar list, but without NO, with 18 land, and 1 Norwood Priestess. The priestess has been working out really well for me as my 'win now' should I set up survival, and sometimes an 'oops, I win' if I happen to draw progenitus and messenger into her. Has anyone else tested her at all in addition to/instead of 1 NO, as aside from survival, you have no way to discard the 1-of progenitus? (and if you have survival up and running, she costs the same amount of mana (2GGG) as having to pitch master P to survival and then NO.) I'm not a fan of the extra slots NO takes (or the beating it is to have it countered), but enjoy the two slots that allow for a fast win through a ghostly prison, ect.

[Nightmare]

Curious - Why, aside from the "tap" as opposed to the ":g:, tap" would you use Norwood Priestess as opposed to Elvish Piper? And to that end, wouldn't the latter be laughable in this deck?

[Media314r8]

Curious - Why, aside from the "tap" as opposed to the ":g:, tap" would you use Norwood Priestess as opposed to Elvish Piper? And to that end, wouldn't the latter be laughable in this deck?

Because it costs exactly the same amount of mana as natural order, can be tutored for with survival, and has haste provided anger is in the graveyard. Would you say that NO is laughable in the deck? The idea behind both is to pay 2GG to put a hasted two turn clock win condition into play with protection from everything into play. I've already said that while it requires SotF, it only takes up two slots to have a Progenitus win in the survival elves shell. NO can win out of nowhere without Survival, but takes up more slots and is more of a beating when it is countered, as NO may be the only reason you kept the hand.

Elvish piper effectively costs an extra mana, which can mean either waiting another turn until you can start swinging, or worse, your opponent casting a pithing needle on her/removing her and needling SofF, where Priestess would have put a hasted progenitus on the board. The ability to drop a guy in at instant speed is hardly needed when the 'guy' is most likely a 10/10 prot everything that likely has haste provided you set SotF up with anger at some point.

Please post comments that are constructive and examine the merits of both strategies. You comment is akin to:

'Curious - Why, aside from the "get the card you tutored for now" as opposed to the "+1 power, and (protect from discard and) draw the card you tutored for next turn" would you use Goblin Matron as opposed to Boggart Harbinger? And to that end, wouldn't the latter be laughable in this deck?'

EDIT: C'mon man, you're a mod - you should be the one yelling at people for making fun of ideas rather than dissecting the merits and drawbacks of the idea and posting constructive comments.

[Nightmare]

Actually, my question was serious. I don't think Norwood Priestess is good, and I really don't think the reduction of the cost by 1 mana makes her better. Is Natural Order good - yes. I don't see how you can argue with that.

When you have an active survival, a creature (that isn't Progenitus) in hand, Anger in the yard, and 5 green mana up, Norwood Priestess is as good as Natural Order. My point is, that's still not really that awesome. You could just as easily Survival the Progenitus and the other creature, and put something into play (that isn't taking up a slot in your deck) that would also win the game.

[Kuma]

I like the idea, Eric, but I think your Natural Order comments are a little off. Most lists run around 28-34 green creatures, many of which aren't very useful by themselves. Having Natural Order Force of Will'd isn't nearly as bad for TEES as it is for, say, CounterTop lists where you often have to sacrifice a Tarmogoyf or Rhox War Monk. Losing an elf token, Llanowar Elves, or Quirion Ranger is insignificant compared with the upside of Natural Order resolving.

Against decks with heavy countermagic, it's best to force them to spend countermagic on your lords and Messengers and Natural Order them late when they're out.

Personally, I cut Survival from my list and I haven't missed it. Without Survival, the deck plays like Goblins with less busted openings, but with a much more explosive mid game and the ability to steal games with Natural Order. TEE(S) is also much more resistant to sweepers if you sideboard correctly.

The deck is an excellent strategy in metagames with lots of Goblins, Merfolk, and CounterTop, as it has favorable matchups against all three while being solid against Landstill, and not terrible against Zoo. It also doesn't lose to random jank, unlike a lot of Legacy lists. The only problem is that combo tends to bend it over.

Norwood Preistess seems like a decent idea if you're running Survival, but she is very Anger dependant, which could be bad. I dunno, I can't test it since I don't run Survival anymore.

[Media314r8]

I've been testing Elf Survival, with a similar list, but without NO, with 18 land, and 1 Norwood Priestess. The priestess has been working out really well for me as my 'win now' should I set up survival, and sometimes an 'oops, I win' if I happen to draw progenitus and messenger into her. Has anyone else tested her at all in addition to/instead of 1 NO, as aside from survival, you have no way to discard the 1-of progenitus? (and if you have survival up and running, she costs the same amount of mana (2GGG) as having to pitch master P to survival and then NO.) I'm not a fan of the extra slots NO takes (or the beating it is to have it countered), but enjoy the two slots that allow for a fast win through a ghostly prison, ect.

So... no. You haven't tested it, you're just posting your opinions without testing. Please go slander the N&D forums and crush Dream Halls' dreams. I've tested with, without, and played against NO, and I'm suggesting people TRY 1 priestess in place of the fourth NO, or place of the NOs in lists who want to run more lands to play SB genesis and have a better manabase, and increased consistency at the cost of occasional NO wins.

I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just asking that a mod of all people TEST an idea rather than attack it without basis, especially when I say that I've been playing it with success and ask if anyone else has tsted it, not if someone feels like attacking my suggestion without testing it.

[TheBirdMan]

Natural order is one the best cards in this deck, I think i win about 65-70% of my matches just baiting counterspells into order. I can see why priestess looks decent but what if you have no survival or you just draw it by itself its kind of subpar. also order can be used to get other guys like symbiote if you needed it to combo out.

[Media314r8]

I like the idea, Eric, but I think your Natural Order comments are a little off. Most lists run around 28-34 green creatures, many of which aren't very useful by themselves. Having Natural Order Force of Will'd isn't nearly as bad for TEES as it is for, say, CounterTop lists where you often have to sacrifice a Tarmogoyf or Rhox War Monk. Losing an elf token, Llanowar Elves, or Quirion Ranger is insignificant compared with the upside of Natural Order resolving.

I'm not saying that NO is bad, or that having it countered is nearly as devastating as it is in NO thresh, but that opening a hand with some mana guys, a lord, and NO looks really attractive, but is very mediocre if the NO is countered. With that hand and priestess, you are likely mulling, and priestess is only a 1-of, so it happens much less frequently. I run priestess as I feel SotF is the strongest card in the deck against a varied meta, and I prefer the increased consistancy to the raw power of NO. I hate having progenitus as a dead card in hand, and having your NOs be terribad creature crop rotations. (which usually fetch lords or messangers, but it's obviously still awkward to draw your only P and then the accompanying NO) I think running NO encourages 'bad keeps,' but understand that it can be better than survival in metas with a lot of MD/SB gy-hate, or with few counterspells. I do think that Priestess deserves at least one slot over or in addition to the fourth NO in lists running both NO and SotF, as she is effectively a tutorable NO in that deck that can be fetched should you want a fast progenitus or should you draw him and not want to trade him and a mana for a lord.

EDIT: This is why threads aren't posted on, and stagnate. I've been watching/reading this thread over the past week, and there have been perhaps one page of posts on SB slots and 'budget' color splashes or replacements, but within twenty minutes of a new idea being suggested, I have three people telling me I'm wrong without testing. Seriously people, decks don't become DTBs/DTWs by threads idling while the lurkers shoo away people with responses like "We know tarmogoyf isn't going to be as good as werebear. Werebear has been working for years with success, and thus a change isn't even worth testing."

I'm not saying by any means that priestess is the next tarmogoyf, but that innovation is never wrong, rather that it should be explored before being dismissed or accepted. I may be wrong, and with more testing, decide to go back to 3 or 4 NOs, but I came to this thread, reading, lurking, then posting, to see if I could save myself time by gleaning anyone else's testing results with priestess. If I wanted to have my ideas made fun of and dismissed immediately, I would post on salvation or wizards boards. We are supposed to be the innovators and backbone of the legacy community. I feel like fucking Cavious here, and I promise a 1-of priestess in place of NO in lists running NO and SotF is not anywhere near as outrageous as NourishingLich.dec.

[Nightmare]

I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just asking that a mod of all people TEST an idea rather than attack it without basis, especially when I say that I've been playing it with success and ask if anyone else has tsted it, not if someone feels like attacking my suggestion without testing it.

First of all, being a mod has nothing to do with it, unless I'm writing in red text, or editing a post. Consider the mod hat taken off for now, and pretend I'm posting as a Magic: the Gathering player, who happens to have some baseline of experience with and intuition for the format.

Second, I'm not saying you shouldn't play Norwood Priestess. If you think it's contributing to your win percentage, by all means, play it. It may even be the nuts. I'm merely making you ask yourself this question:

If Priestess did not exist (or if Portal was not legal in Legacy), would you consider running Elvish Piper? I think, if you're honest with yourself, the answer to that question would be no. Once you reach that conclusion, ask yourself if knocking 1 colorless mana off the CMC of the card would make you run it. The answer could be yes. I'm skeptical, that's all.

[Media314r8]

If Priestess did not exist (or if Portal was not legal in Legacy), would you consider running Elvish Piper? I think, if you're honest with yourself, the answer to that question would be no. Once you reach that conclusion, ask yourself if knocking 1 colorless mana off the CMC of the card would make you run it. The answer could be yes. I'm skeptical, that's all.

I apologize if I offended you. I understand your skepticism, but understand that there were combo players (TES/doomsday or it's predecessors) that were skeptical of Grim tutor, as at first glance, it's just a mana cheaper than diabolic tutor, and costs 3 life to boot. 1 mana can make a huge difference in a card's playability. I'm not saying it's better than NO, but offering it up for testing should others not have tried it. I've had success with it and been happy with it, as it is only slightly disappointing to draw, as without it, big P is abysmal to draw. At least priestess can 'cheat in' messengers and dudes drawn with them.

[Bryant Cook]

Is grim tutor in those decks now?

[Media314r8]

Is grim tutor in those decks now?


(TES/doomsday or it's predecessors) that were skeptical of Grim tutor

It's not played in ANT or modern doomsday, but it was played and it was certainly justified, where diabolic tutor would have been garbage. Thanks for the witty quip, as it pertains to this discussion. Grim tutor was played, and it relates to my comparison in that the difference between grim tutor and diabolic tutor is the difference between a $80 card and an unplayable card. One mana. It does make a big difference, ala the difference between norwood priestess and elvish piper - one mana. (and a negligible drawback, as playing a progenitus at instant speed is irrel, as you want to be attacking with it immediately via anger)

[Bryant Cook]

It's not played in ANT or modern doomsday, but it was played and it was certainly justified, where diabolic tutor would have been garbage. Thanks for the witty quip, as it pertains to this discussion. Grim tutor was played, and it relates to my comparison in that the difference between grim tutor and diabolic tutor is the difference between a $80 card and an unplayable card. One mana. It does make a big difference, ala the difference between norwood priestess and elvish piper - one mana. (and a negligible drawback, as playing a progenitus at instant speed is irrel, as you want to be attacking with it immediately via anger)

What I was saying was that one mana in the end doesn't matter. Either way the card shouldn't make the cut.

[Atog]

Hi guys, i have started to test Di's latest build of this deck and i'm asking if somebody could give some advices for sideboarding. Example, do you side out elvish champions out against decks what don't play green? Thanks!

[Hawdes]

Been a while guys... But I've been playtesting my Elfdeck a long time now. This is the decklist I've been testing so far:


4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
4 Forest

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Priest of Titania
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Progenitus

4 Natural Order
4 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Choke
3 Planar Void
3 Absolute Law
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Woodfall Primus


I've been testing against a wide range of decks such as ANT, TEES, Ichorid/Dredge, different tribaldecks, Thresh, Aggro Loam, Staxx decks, stompy, Stasis (lol), Deadguy decks, Eva Green, UB Reanimators etc.
Practically the whole shibang of decks, and my conclusion from my playtesting is pretty good.
The card(s) I've been most unsatisfied with are actually the Cabal Therapies, ofc, you hit with them once in a while, but more than often it's rather disappointing.
I feel that I would much rather have played 4 maindecked Relic of Progenitus to have a chance at battleing all graveyard decks that's running around. With the increasing popularity of UB Reanimators, Ichorid/dreadge and the fact that nearly every deck splashes for goyf would justify the inclusion of the common artifact.
Even if it wouldn't have no effect in the current matchup, it will net me a card for the cost of my and my opponents graveyard. Almost like cycling.

The combo matchups are still a pain in the ass unless you get the nuts draw with a fast clock. But even with a nuts draw, you can easily lose the game after you play a land and a elf. Mulling into a cabal therapy against those matchups won't even net you a win since you more than often have to blind therapy.

In my opinion the flexslots in my list atm would be the cabal's and the Packmaster. Packmaster has proven to be quite good. Mainly due to the fat body and the option to make a wolf every now and then for 2G.

I'll be testing the 4 Relic of Progenitus maindeck and see how good they actually are and the Packmaster will stay in until I see anything else worth playing in that slot.

[Curby]

Are you sure this is the right thread? This thread discusses a combo-flavored Survival-based Elf deck. You seem to have an aggro-flavored Elf deck with NOgenitus thrown in.

[arebennian]

Keep up with the times Kirby!

While the thread does retain that title, the originator of the thread has dropped Survival from his list.

Di now runs a list similar to the one quoted by Hawdes

[Curby]

Whoops, I didn't realize that. First post update, please! =)

[Nidd]

I'm playing some sort of updated list now with both Survival and NO.

Survival is still worth it IMO. It allows you to win matches you have no business winning and allows you to pack in some singletons like the Pack Master that allows you to create massive walls of little doggies that can halt assaults by similiar decks (Goblins?), not to mention these little bastards have Deathtouch.

I've been playing with a 1-of Wellwisher in my MD and it works wonders for certain matchups. Survival needs some time (2 turns or so) and a Wellwisher can buy you that time.
As I play Thorn of Amethyst in my SB, that Wellwisher also improves my combo matchup - kinda. I could always slow them down enough to either draw my Wellwisher or tutor for him - the lifegain was backbreaking.

I dunno whether adding B and ditching R altogether with Survival might be the way to go.
I think including the Survival makes your Aggromatchup way better, while B (read: Discard) improves the combo matchup. Sounds like a metacall.


Really, this deck is a blast to play. I'm thinking hard of buying it when I get my next salary.

[Hawdes]

I'm playing some sort of updated list now with both Survival and NO.

Survival is still worth it IMO. It allows you to win matches you have no business winning and allows you to pack in some singletons like the Pack Master that allows you to create massive walls of little doggies that can halt assaults by similiar decks (Goblins?), not to mention these little bastards have Deathtouch.

I've been playing with a 1-of Wellwisher in my MD and it works wonders for certain matchups. Survival needs some time (2 turns or so) and a Wellwisher can buy you that time.
As I play Thorn of Amethyst in my SB, that Wellwisher also improves my combo matchup - kinda. I could always slow them down enough to either draw my Wellwisher or tutor for him - the lifegain was backbreaking.

I dunno whether adding B and ditching R altogether with Survival might be the way to go.
I think including the Survival makes your Aggromatchup way better, while B (read: Discard) improves the combo matchup. Sounds like a metacall.


Really, this deck is a blast to play. I'm thinking hard of buying it when I get my next salary.

In my experience, SotF felt slow. I previously piloted different types of SotF decks and I've always felt that it was 1 or 2 turns to slow to seal the deal, and ofc it's pretty mana hungry. It would ofc be a little faster in a deck packed with elves, but then again, there aren't many elves that in my opinion justifies the inclusion of SotF.
Playing SotF implies that you will run a bunch of silver bullets that will get you out of certain situations or go for the win. Most of the time, it's the first. There are no really good silver bullet elves that can compete in Legacy atm, more than maybe a hand full.

Personally I feel more explosive running the non SotF build even though it has it's pros and cons.
I favor the fast and aggressive playstyle more than to be the reactive one, and the fact that 50% of the decks I'm going up against in my meta involves some sort of thresh/counter/crapness which tends to put the SotF build back hard.
It doesn't hurt the aggressive elf build as much since you drop threat after threat. If they waste their counters on the little pointy-eared men, then they will feel the beat from a NO into Progenitus. If they're holding back counters for NO, then the elves and lords slip through.

That's just my personal opinion. It all comes down to play style and personal references and of course what meta you're in.
Tribal decks tend to have low win percentage against combo decks so packing hate against those decks seem to be a waste of slots.
I've been play testing a series of games against ANT and the only thing you actually can do is to hope that the don't have the nuts draw, hit with a blind therapy on their mana sources/tutors or have a nuts draw yourself and net some of their life before they go bananas.

Either way, I'm feeling more comfortable playing blue decks now that survival's out of the picture in my decklist. It more than often didn't go online and resultet in them timewalking me when they counter it. (Read FoW and Spell Snare). Playing around Daze is easy, but the rest... It's hard to even get it through imo.

[Nidd]

Well, the way I see it, SotF allows you to play an aggro deck with the possibility to go for a combo finish.

Elves allows you to tutor up Anger on T2, then on T3 tutor a Priest of Titania, Sylvan Messengers and then just start chaining Priests, grab Symbiotes to bounce Messengers and untap your manadorks and finally overwhelm your enemy with a bunch of hasted Elves.

Against Blue decks, you can board this strategy out and pack in some more meat.

I can't really tell whether Survival is win-more or if it really makes me win games I would normally lose.
I mean, it even enables you to recharge by tutoring Messengers after a sweeper - if one lands.

Also, it's extremely annoying to only have Natural Order, draw that Progenitus and then have no way to get him back into my library again.

[Hawdes]

Also, it's extremely annoying to only have Natural Order, draw that Progenitus and then have no way to get him back into my library again.

That's also why Cabal Therapy was played maindeck I think, to give you a way to get rid of danger cards that could hurt you in a perticular matchup and in extreme cases you could Cabal yourself and ditch Progenitus.

In my list, I actually have two NO targets, as in Packmaster and Progenitus.
Progenitus isn't actually a must play card, it just fastens up the clock. In the board I have an added NO target in Woodfall Primus aswell (pretty good against cards like glacial chasm etc.).

Even though you could self-target yourself with the cabals, I hardly ever kept a hand with Progenitus in it unless you have a really good curve. It's practically a mull hand, so if it's not that good you would probably be better in mulling and ensure that Progenitus will be back in the lib.
Although I don't play Cabal Therapy main or sideboard anymore... So the Proghands will become mulls anyway. I think that Relic of Progenitus offers more against other decks, and it draws you a card even if it doesn't have an effect inte the matchup.
Since we don't play goyfs in the Elf list, it still helps against those big goyf-bodies. We hardly ever have anything else in our graveyard except creatures, lands and maybe sorceries. Which won't fuel the goyfs that much.

[Hawdes]

I just want to report my testing results with Relic of Progenitus in MD.
It turend out to be a very nice addition to the "from time to time" useful Cabal Therapies.
It has such a huge impact on the matchups that tend to loop boardsweepers or barbarian rings with Loam engine, and isn't it just fun to force Tarmogoyf to stay home against your Llanowar/Fyndhorn Elves? :cool:

I must say that I enjoy having the backup Planar Voids in the SB aswell. Matchups like Ichorid, Reanimator and other graveyard decks just doesn't see Planar Void coming.
They often expect Leyline and Relic, but a hoser like Planar Void forces Ichorid to bounce it one turn and go all in, instead of bouncing a Leyline, which often results in a few turns until it's replayed (due to the BB cost and a cmc of 4).
There have been games where I mulled down to a five card hand just to be able to drop Planar Void T1 (post board against GY decks and if I don't get a good/decent hand at 6 or 7.), and it has been nothing but positive, buying me time against Ichorid and Loam engines.

Maindeck Relic of Progenitus has also been great in some Gobbos matchups, when hit on the right target (read recurring Gempalm incinerators).

My list is where I want it at the moment.

I've cut a bayou maindeck to add the fourth Wasteland, since the requirement for black isn't as needed now as before with 4 maindecked Cabal Therapy.

Wasteland wins you some matchups that you shouldn't be able to win, due to color screw since everyone runs those tight manabases.

[Teumie]

also for me, been a while
I really loved this deck and played it at a few tourneys, but in the end always got disappointed with it being 'not just good enough' to be tier 1 ...

In my testing/playstyle, the therapies were no good ... they slowed me down a lot (T1 therapy, T2 elf and mayhap therapy again if necessary) which basically looses you 2 turns ...
anyway, I was thinking of including eyeblights ending, just to be able to destroy annoying creatures (wort in the gobo matchup, some tombstalker or a jitte equiped creature, ...)
I never tested it though ... (dumped the deck before testing it (sorry to say).

I also removed the wastelands and replaced them by forests, I was being too color screwed sometimes (opening with one wasteland and no other lands sucks) whereas they didn't win me that many games that i wouldn't have won otherwise.

the inclusion of relic, is it worth it? i mean do you play 4 main? I can see their advantages, but wouldn't 2 or 3 main be enough already (maybe include a jitte as well)?

why the woodfall primus? is it against moat? would a sky swallower not be better in that case? (or some other flyer)?

I played tsunami instead of choke just to play around counterbalance better. Is choke useful against f.e. supreme blue?

anyway, i think i will recreate this deck, it is just to fun to play and hope that someday we will be able to make it a 'deck to beat' ...

[Hawdes]

also for me, been a while
I really loved this deck and played it at a few tourneys, but in the end always got disappointed with it being 'not just good enough' to be tier 1 ...

In my testing/playstyle, the therapies were no good ... they slowed me down a lot (T1 therapy, T2 elf and mayhap therapy again if necessary) which basically looses you 2 turns ...
anyway, I was thinking of including eyeblights ending, just to be able to destroy annoying creatures (wort in the gobo matchup, some tombstalker or a jitte equiped creature, ...)
I never tested it though ... (dumped the deck before testing it (sorry to say).

I also removed the wastelands and replaced them by forests, I was being too color screwed sometimes (opening with one wasteland and no other lands sucks) whereas they didn't win me that many games that i wouldn't have won otherwise.

the inclusion of relic, is it worth it? i mean do you play 4 main? I can see their advantages, but wouldn't 2 or 3 main be enough already (maybe include a jitte as well)?

why the woodfall primus? is it against moat? would a sky swallower not be better in that case? (or some other flyer)?

I played tsunami instead of choke just to play around counterbalance better. Is choke useful against f.e. supreme blue?

anyway, i think i will recreate this deck, it is just to fun to play and hope that someday we will be able to make it a 'deck to beat' ...

The woodfall primus is there against trouble lands aswell, Glacial Chasm for example. Nothing that fits the Elf Deck (playing NO) hits lands except for Woodfall Primus or Acidic Slime, where I feel that Woodfall shines more as a silver bullet due to his massive body, persist and ofc, trample.
He could as well hit enchantments, and serve as Krosan grip number 4-7 with NO in the deck, post board ofc. Don't forget that he reads "noncreature permanent" which means he can take out planewalkers aswell... That could be relevant in some matchups.
Although a flying creature would be good, it's not as versetile as Woodfall, the only big green creatures that have flying in green (with shroud) is Empyrial Archangel and Simic... Then again, if it's a meta filled with decks that pack moat, then why not...
But decks running moat tend to not be as popular. Woodfall Primus feels better in more matchups than a big stupid flying creature, but that's just personal taste. I like utility.

I do feel that the 4 Relic of Progenitus main makes a big difference in many matchups. Most decks splash green for goyf or play some sort of grave manipulation as Loam, Intution etc. Keep in mind that people tend to play Dredge, some has adapted the new Bloodghast, and the unbanning of entomb has resulted in an uprising in the reanimator department (resolved reanimation of Ioona means scoop).
Against threshold and ANT, it removes threshold basically, making my Fyndhorns/Llanowars tradable with Mongeese. Against ANT it makes Cabal ritual a bad mana accelerant.
There might be decks that I forgot to mention when it also shines. But my experience with Cabal Therapy is that it's only good for the combo matchup or if you try to remove counters from control decks. Even if you name Tarmogoyf with Cabal Therapy, the topdecked goyf will still be a threat, but with the maindecked Relics, you only pop the relic to see a 0/1 green dude for 1G.

And that, in my opinion is what makes Relic of Progenitus suit the deck better than Cabal therapy.
I can't see what else to put in to the deck if i would cut them. More elves? Aether Vial? Vial doesn't fit imo since rather play a t1 mana elf or Quirion Dryad/Wirewood. That leaves us with more creatures. I would maybe add 2 Rofellos and 2 other... Maybe Vanquishers. But that won't help you more than ensuring you to get the mana ramp and some more "efficient" beaters. Maybe maindeck 4 Zealots against enchantments. Dunno.

Choke on the other hand, it's better than tsunami in some matchups, and worse than it in others. I believe you need the ability to cast it T2 with a T1 mana elf against fast combo decks that tend to brainstorm and filter the carddraw, like ANT. This will result in them having trouble to maintain their mana. Since it's post board, they will much likely just go off since they know that elves can't respond to their spells. Choke hinders them earlier. And by the time you get to 4 sources of mana, you might aswell be dead. Ofc, you can die T1 if they have the nuts draw, the only decks that can manage that are decks packing FoWs anyway. Go play blue if you want to be safe.
The only argument I have against Tsunami is that it costs 1 more, so if you feel that tsunami works for you and if you're in a heavy counter/top meta, then play Tsunami. I rely more on speed and like the fact that you're not required to have that many mana producing cards to smack down a choke on the table.
It requires 1-2 lands, 1-2 1 drop elves to get there as fast as possible. Unlike in Tsunami's case, you need to hit more lands or more mana producing elves.
To cast Choke T2:
T1: Land, Llanowar/Fyndhorn
T2: Land, Choke

To cast Tsunami:
T1: Land, Llanowar/Fyndhorn
T2: Land, Priest of Titania/Elvish Archdruid/Other mana producing elf (including Quirion here if you miss T3 land drop).
T3: Tsunami.

And that's if you have the optimal draw and playing solitaire. You could aswell get stifled in those matchups, resulting in less lands, if you fetch. And the fact that it takes a turn longer to cast Tsunami, it will result in them having +1 card drawn which could be the key piece in their CB/Top softlock or even a blue card to pitch to FoW or even FoW itself.
You want to minimize their chances to do anything about it.

[Atwa]

It's been a while since I've played elf survival, for some reason I've decided to play Eternal Garden at GP Madrid, and I spend all my time to it. However I still have some interest in this deck, and I found this card spoiled at MTG salvation.

Joraga Warcaller, G (Rare)
Creature - Elf Warrior
Multikicker 1G
Joraga Warcaller enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each time it was kicked.
Other Elf creatures you control get +1/+1 for each +1/+1 counter on Joraga Warcaller.
1/1

With all the Priests and Archdruids in this deck, we should be able to get this guy ridiculously large in a short amount of time. It makes a pretty good finisher I think. Any thoughts?

[godryk]

Is it any better than Mirror Entity? Ok, he's on color and creates permanent counters, but Mirror Entity makes "counters" twice as cheap and after you cast it. What really matters is that Mirror Entity was eventually dismissed because it was kind of win-more in Survival Elves. I could see it work in Elfball, as it's a cheap 1-mana drop that nets you cards off Glimpse of Nature and eventually can serve as a finisher.

[georgjorge]

The good thing is the flexibility though, as you can also just drop it as a Lord for three mana whenever you want to. So it can be used either as a big finisher or as a long-term boost to your team, whereas Entity doesn't really do much if you don't have the crazy mana production online.


EDIT: Illisius mentioned Immaculate Magistrate, which seems insane...with Survival out (and Anger in the yard), could this be a viable combo kill? It should be lethal if you have only three or four other Elves out...

[Illissius]

I actually think that if Immaculate Magistrate isn't good enough on its own, then it's not going to be good enough with Warcaller either, but feel free to prove me wrong. I mainly mentioned it for the awesomeness factor.

(We need some new words for awesome which are at least as awesome as awesome so we don't have to keep using awesome all the time.)

[leander?]

The awesome-problem is just caused by the influence of Americans on this website. Americans tend to exaggerate everything and call anything that's funny/nice/whatever awesome so they run out of words when something is better than awesome.
And non-native english speakers copy this way of speaking very easily, becouse copying is the best way to learn a language.

[godryk]

The awesome-problem is just caused by the influence of Americans on this website. Americans tend to exaggerate everything and call anything that's funny/nice/whatever awesome so they run out of words when something is better than awesome.
And non-native english speakers copy this way of speaking very easily, becouse copying is the best way to learn a language.

Yep! QFMFT! awesome is teh nutz as it sounds funtastic! Why would we evah need another word... OOOOOOSOM!

PS: This thead needs m0ar awesomeness

[Sevryn]

The awesome-problem is just caused by the influence of Americans on this website. Americans tend to exaggerate everything and call anything that's funny/nice/whatever awesome so they run out of words when something is better than awesome.
And non-native english speakers copy this way of speaking very easily, becouse copying is the best way to learn a language.

Awesome criticism.

In other news, English is dumb. Did you know that 'awful' and 'awesome' were originally synonymous? That 'goodbye' is an apostrophe-less contraction of "god be with you?" What about "'I' before 'E' except after 'C' or when sounding like 'A' as in 'neighbor' or 'weigh'... or if the word is specifically 'weird'"

BEST LANGUAGE EVER IMO.

[leander?]

I'm not saying English is dumb, I'm saying Americans are dumb.

[Sevryn]

I'm not saying English is dumb, I'm saying Americans are dumb.

Oh I agree that Americans are dumb, and I'm American. I just think that English is dumb, too.

[Azania]

Ermm lets get this back on topic shall we?. Now in regards to the following new card:


It's been a while since I've played elf survival, for some reason I've decided to play Eternal Garden at GP Madrid, and I spend all my time to it. However I still have some interest in this deck, and I found this card spoiled at MTG salvation.

Joraga Warcaller, G (Rare)
Creature - Elf Warrior
Multikicker 1G
Joraga Warcaller enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each time it was kicked.
Other Elf creatures you control get +1/+1 for each +1/+1 counter on Joraga Warcaller.
1/1

With all the Priests and Archdruids in this deck, we should be able to get this guy ridiculously large in a short amount of time. It makes a pretty good finisher I think. Any thoughts?

The card is good but as a single lord for 1GG it is the weakest of all. And atleast I do not run the full 12 lords. However it is quite flexible with the potential to ge around 2 engeneerd plagues in play (which is an auto scoop aside from NO -> symbiote to prog unless you have several lords in play already). I would say max have 3 in your deck but I think I will run 2 instead with cutting the forest walk lord to 2 (from 3) and a fyndhorn/llanowar for those 2. They are worth testing though.

[Hawdes]

Ermm lets get this back on topic shall we?. Now in regards to the following new card:



The card is good but as a single lord for 1GG it is the weakest of all. And atleast I do not run the full 12 lords. However it is quite flexible with the potential to ge around 2 engeneerd plagues in play (which is an auto scoop aside from NO -> symbiote to prog unless you have several lords in play already). I would say max have 3 in your deck but I think I will run 2 instead with cutting the forest walk lord to 2 (from 3) and a fyndhorn/llanowar for those 2. They are worth testing though.

I would much rather have Elvish Champion than this new guy... Forestwalk does in fact impact the gameplay against many decks.
I'm with the group that thinks that this guy will be a win more creature, since when you already pack XYZ mana, you should be winning.
Cutting Llanowars/Fyndhorns will just hurt the deck more to add these "lords" because we rely on hitting three or four mana quick, and get our elf count up. Playing a 1/1 Elf "possible lord" instead of a 1/1 Elf that will give you mana sources is a no brainer.
He will not be played in Legacy I think, due to the fact that he doesn't have abilities that brings him over the top, like Elvish Archdruid (Priest of Titania on steroids).

The only flexslots in my list as we speak are Wren Run's Packmaster, and I still think that I much rather pump x mana in him, making wolves with deathtouch than casting a big elf with multikicker... As Wren Run's Packmaster will always be a big 5/5 Elf for cmc 4, and not as situational as the new lord.

[Waikiki]

I would play him as a 1 off tutor instead of mirror entity

[Hawdes]

I would play him as a 1 off tutor instead of mirror entity

Yes ofc, if you go that route... I've dropped Survival from the list ages ago in favour of more explosive starts and due to a great amount of spell snare in my meta. The only "tutors" I run in the deck at the moment are Natural Orders, targeting Progenitus first, then the Packmaster, or packmaster first if I have huge amounts of mana and have to race big dudes...
I've previously discussed pros and cons of SotF in the deck so I won't bring it up again.
The only thing I would like to suggest is that you guys should try out Relic of Progenitus maindeck if you have a Loam/Dredge/etc heavy meta, and to the decks that splash green for goyfs (a lot of decks), you have a maindeck answer to the big 4/5 for 2 mana creatures which lets your llanowars win against them.
It has done remarkable things in those matchups when you have them maindeck. It can steal some other matchups aswell...
I like them more over Cabal Therapy which I ran before.

[Tacosnape]

Comparing this thing to Mirror Entity seems more wrong than comparing it to some of the other Elf Lords. Certainly it's not better than Archdruid, but I could see this thing stealing a slot or two from Elvish Champion, leaving enough Champions to Survival for should you need the Forestwalk worse than the ability to multilord* your guys.

This guy can also just be Lords 13-16, in case you want that for any reason.

(Multilord (v)- 1. To give all of a tribe +1/+1 multiple times, often through the use of a creature. Ex. I'd have won had that stupid Joraga Warcaller not multilorded your guys out of Firespout range.)

[Esper3k]

Nice thing about this guy is that he protects against Pyroclasm much better than the other lords do.

If you play him at 5 mana, all your guys are safe from Pyroclasm by himself (as opposed to needing 2 lords out). If you somehow manage to cast him at 7, all your guys are safe from Firespout now.

[Azania]

He is flexible and allows himself and others to live trough pyroclasms and multiple EPlagues which is good in my book. But for that you need atleast 5 mana which is not much a problem. I do not play packmaster in my list since a while and comparing those 2 is somewhat wrong, many lists (including mine) have dropped that card.

I have 8 1mana elves so cutting those to 7 and going from 3 to 2 forestwalk guys is doable to allow 2 of this new elf to take 2 spots in the list.

In regards to the meta game, if you see a share of decks with mutavaults and engeneerd plague, firesprout and pyroclasm then this guys is an answer. You do not want your champions in play against enemy mutavaults, and those are carefull play against other elf decks.

Elvish Champion is already considered the worst of the 3 lords I find it fair to be compared to this new elf. It is either forest walk or a 'lfexible lord power(s)'. Of course there is such a thing as metagame to look at. For lord count 9~12 I think 2 of each would be fair in general but this requires testing. I will be proxy'ing this card soon to test though.

[Hawdes]

I just want to post some of my experience from last night testing...
Relic of Progenitus was a house against a wide variety of decks, I'm happy with the inclusion even if I don't hit goyfs all day, it's always good to remove cards in graveyards (I'm looking at you ANT, Tombstalker ******s etc.).

The main issue I ran into though was against a random deadguy deck running Gatekeepers maindeck, Vampire Nighthawk, Snuffout, Goyfs, Jitte etc. and it got really hard after sideboard.
The deck packed Perish, Engineered Plague in the sideboard... How on earth can you handle a deck like that with elves? I did board in my Woodfall Primus (he was better than Progenitus in this matchup actually... due to all sac removal and spot removal targeting everything else), and ofc the Krosan Grips came in against the Engineered Plagues and Jittes aswell some of my own Jittes. Even then, this matchup was pretty wicked for me to handle. Any ideas?

I also tested a great deal against various types of Zoo, which in the end just stomped the deck to the ground. The only way to beat Zoo is to resolve a fast NO into Progenitus, or it seems that way. Any thoughts on how to improve this matchup?
I did board in my Absolute Laws here aswell my jittes, even with that it felt like a wicked hard matchup...

[Kuma]

Wirewood Herald + Caller of the Claw and Cabal Therapy offer good protection against Perish.

We run 12 lords. Engineered Plague is a joke.

Umezawa's Jitte out of the sideboard would be a house in this matchup since it makes every elf scary and can remove his Jittes.

If you can play Progenitus with another elf out to protect against Edicts, you shouldn't have a problem.

[Hawdes]

Wirewood Herald + Caller of the Claw and Cabal Therapy offer good protection against Perish.

We run 12 lords. Engineered Plague is a joke.

Umezawa's Jitte out of the sideboard would be a house in this matchup since it makes every elf scary and can remove his Jittes.

If you can play Progenitus with another elf out to protect against Edicts, you shouldn't have a problem.

The problem was, that I playtested against a guy who just hit my lords with his spot removal. Which resulted in that Engineered Plague got lethal instantly... But you're right. It might just have been bad luck when piloting my deck...

[Teumie]

I tested the relics instead of therapy's, but was not very happy with it (tested against counter/top which played goyf).
In these matchups, goyf is generally not the problem (they play green, and racing them should not be a problem since you create lots of creatures all with forest walk). The biggest problem in this matchup is counter/top (they have to keep something of cc1 and cc3 in their top 3 cards and hold a fow for NO).

I was toying with the idea of discarding black altogether. I know it has very nice SB options, but nothing so fundamental that it requires 2 splashes in an essentially mono color deck (at least pre-side).

I also tried the new 'lord' card, but was not very happy with it. You only want to cast it when you have some mana (so it waits in your hand untill you do, and in most cases you play it as a finisher) and it costs 1 mana, which sucks against cotv and cb/top ...
I thought that running mirror entity would be better in most cases (only exception is against plague) also allowing more versatility. I was hoping that bouncing the new lord and than re-playing it with lots of mana would be awesome, but it didn't make it most of the time (when short on creatures/cards, bouncing messenger is just better)

I am thinking of running a GW version which includes mirror entity and maybe some oblivion rings, just to have an answer to threats to which we have otherwise no answer (e.g. moat, humility, cb, wort, a fast tombstalker, etc.). In that case, the manabase gets a bit more consistent and less stifle-able.

Regarding the previously mentioned matchups:
zoo is very hard, you need a good hand and just hope that their hand is bad. Even playing an absolute law will only stall them untill they resolve a qasali (which in general, they play 4 maindeck ...) and even then you will have to sack creatures in order to block theirs (which are generally bigger) because you cannot afford to take more than 8 - 10 damage since they will just shoot you through the head ...

Engineered plague is only bad when they also play lots of spot/other removal. perish is just bad and the only thing you can do (when not playing caller of the claw) is just not overextend. in this case, one active imperious perfect is excellent since they cannot edict it (just create a token) and in it can generate a whole army (especially if you can untap with the other elf)

anyway, I was hoping on some feedback on the GW build since I was not very happy with the therapy's nor the relics.

Thanks!

[Hawdes]

I tested the relics instead of therapy's, but was not very happy with it (tested against counter/top which played goyf).
In these matchups, goyf is generally not the problem (they play green, and racing them should not be a problem since you create lots of creatures all with forest walk). The biggest problem in this matchup is counter/top (they have to keep something of cc1 and cc3 in their top 3 cards and hold a fow for NO).

I was toying with the idea of discarding black altogether. I know it has very nice SB options, but nothing so fundamental that it requires 2 splashes in an essentially mono color deck (at least pre-side).

I also tried the new 'lord' card, but was not very happy with it. You only want to cast it when you have some mana (so it waits in your hand untill you do, and in most cases you play it as a finisher) and it costs 1 mana, which sucks against cotv and cb/top ...
I thought that running mirror entity would be better in most cases (only exception is against plague) also allowing more versatility. I was hoping that bouncing the new lord and than re-playing it with lots of mana would be awesome, but it didn't make it most of the time (when short on creatures/cards, bouncing messenger is just better)

I am thinking of running a GW version which includes mirror entity and maybe some oblivion rings, just to have an answer to threats to which we have otherwise no answer (e.g. moat, humility, cb, wort, a fast tombstalker, etc.). In that case, the manabase gets a bit more consistent and less stifle-able.

Regarding the previously mentioned matchups:
zoo is very hard, you need a good hand and just hope that their hand is bad. Even playing an absolute law will only stall them untill they resolve a qasali (which in general, they play 4 maindeck ...) and even then you will have to sack creatures in order to block theirs (which are generally bigger) because you cannot afford to take more than 8 - 10 damage since they will just shoot you through the head ...

Engineered plague is only bad when they also play lots of spot/other removal. perish is just bad and the only thing you can do (when not playing caller of the claw) is just not overextend. in this case, one active imperious perfect is excellent since they cannot edict it (just create a token) and in it can generate a whole army (especially if you can untap with the other elf)

anyway, I was hoping on some feedback on the GW build since I was not very happy with the therapy's nor the relics.

Thanks!

The only thing that white adds to the picture (if running Survival of the Fittest) it's Mirror Entity creaturewise. The main reason to ditch black for white would be the access to PtE, StP, Oblivion Rings or enchantments that battle combo imo.
I do not like the fact that the elf deck bends over to a resolved Ioona, that's why I pack Planar Void and Relic of Progenitus in the deck.
Which makes it harder for them to play against.
Relic main depends much on the meta aswell. Dredge is a popular deck in my meta, aswell as other decks packing graveyard manipulation.
I have even speculated in running 3-4 Viridian Zealots maindeck in the Relic slot, for more elves and the ability to combat our other weakspots as Engineered Plague, Moat, etc. and even hitting some artifact mana sources.
I might try it though.

[Teumie]

i was considering the same thing (including zealots instead of relics), mostly because the matchups against 'graveyard' decks is not soo bad (I actually won 2 times on tournaments against dredge). If they cannot kill turn 1 or 2, then you should be OK. especially since NO removes their bridges.

I know that white brings not a lot creaturewise (although mirror entity is a bomb and also good against firespout (which i see VERY much here)) white is especially useful for absolute law and maybe some combo 'hosers' although that still remains a very bad matchup (you can only win if they screw up basically ...)

Regarding Ioona: if you pack white for oblivion ring (lets say a 3 or 4 off) she isn't such a big of a problem: if they say green you ring her, if they say white you continue bashing their face up (ok they got a clock, but so do you) or am I missing something here?
In my meta I see very few reanimator decks ...

[Azania]

I have been testing the new lord somewhat, I agree it was not as great as I thought it was, most of the time it ended up being in my hand for longer then I wanted it to.. And even then casting most of the time as a single lord for 3. But whenever I did play it it was usefull, I found it better then elvish champion since it does offer to play it as 2 lord effects for 5.

I agree it is more like a finisher elf, are rarely a saver but it did happen to me. Also an engeneerd plague at turn 3 is scary since it can kill all you elves, if you are sitting at 1 land it will loose badly >< But that is just very bad luck tbh.

It is still good enough to keep testing it. It was not as great as I hoped it to be but still not bad at all. Am playing as a 2-off having 12 lords total with it. 2 champion, 4 perfect and 4 aqrchdruid and 2 warcaller atm with 7 other 1-mana elves.

[Hawdes]

My new list after some serious tweaking and testing on MWS and with friends:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Forest

1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Progenitus
4 Priest of Titania
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Elvish Champion
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Tribal Forcemage*

4 Natural Order
4 Relic of Progenitus*

Sideboard:

4 Blood Moon
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Planar Void
1 Woodfall Primus
4 Krosan Grip*

*: Cards that are questionable and flexible. Searching for better replacements.

Ok, lets cut past all the chitchat and go straight down to the discussions.
I recently cut Wirewood Symbiote, all though he's nice in theory, he seldom pulls his weight. Of course, Sylvan Chinnanigans are always welcome and bouncing other elves to dodge spot removal are what he's supposed to do, but in playtesting he more than often never goes online with either Sylvan Messenger nor protecting the other elves. He eats a StP, Bolt of any kind or a PtE and goes to the bin.
I replaced him with a more synergestic overrun ability in the deck, in the form of Tribal Forcemage. Played morph Game 1 often results in him getting hit by a spot removal, people might be afraid of what it could be, so he does the same thing as Wirewood Symbiote does in that department.
The added Trample and +2/+2 to all my elves has been pretty satisfying both in tempo increase and when I'm battleing various aggro decks.

I've also added Blood Moon to the sideboard, cutting Absolute Law and white all together. The reason for this is simple. The impact from Blood Moon on decks are far more heavy than Absolute Law, which almost only gets boarded in against Gobs or Zoo. Zoo already packs other removal in StP or PtE and their creatures aren't as red as you could believe.
On a closer inspection I realized that decks tend to pack tons of non basics since the fallback of Dragon Stompy decks. Most Zoo decks (one of our problem matchups) packs very little basic lands.
In fact, I played a total of 14 games against different Zoo decks last night and all in all four out of these 14 decks had a total of two basic lands each. The odds of Blood Moon having a great impact in these games are far better than Absolute Law doing anything except dodging a bolt now and then.

And due to the addition of Blood Moon, I could easily cut Choke from the board. Adding a mana denying enchantment over another.
If we compare the pros and cons of Blood Moon against Choke, you quickly realize that Blood Moon has little or no effect against Merfolks (except making Mutavaults and Wastelands mountains), it doesn not in fact deny them mana, which Choke did. But considering the upswing Blood Moon gives us in other matchups would, in my opinion, justify the cut of Choke for Blood Moon.

Further into the discussion, I still think that the Relic of Progenitus maindeck is a "ok" card, but there could be better ones, no doubt. I'm trying to come up with something that could replace this (I still think that Relic is good in battles against Grim Lavamancers, Tombstalkers, Nimble Mongeese, Goyfs, etc.).

I'm not that happy with the Krosan Grips actually, I would rather see these as Viridian Zealots or something of the like, due to the fact that they are elves. But they don't have Split Second now do they? Very hard decision here.
I don't know how many times I've been so unsatisfyed when I resolve a Sylvan Messenger, revealing no or one elf and the rest being lands, Natural Orders and borded Krosan Grips, resulting in them ending up on the bottom of my library. I've been testing Viridian Zealots in this slot, although they're pretty underwhelming when there's a Engineered plague on the board and it doesn't dodge CB that effective. I've had my eyes on Nullmage Sheperd, with it's cmc at 4 and a pretty fat body, but she requires 3 other guys to actually do anything. Would be a house against Enchantress though. The cmc 4 enables it dodge CB a bit easier.
Anyone have a thought on how I could adress this issue?

[arebennian]

I replaced him with a more synergestic overrun ability in the deck, in the form of Tribal Forcemage. Played morph Game 1 often results in him getting hit by a spot removal, people might be afraid of what it could be, so he does the same thing as Wirewood Symbiote does in that department.
The added Trample and +2/+2 to all my elves has been pretty satisfying both in tempo increase and when I'm battleing various aggro decks.
If you are going to run a universal pumper such as this, I believe that Gempalm is better. It avoids removal AND counters and as such, his +2/+2 can only be Stifled. Forcemage is a sitting duck and costs 1extra mana for the trample which with 3-4 5/5 Elves is overkill; either you opponent will be open, you will be able to swarm around him, holding back blockers that he will be forces to use to chump all of which allow you to win on the next turn (that is, if he doesn't topdeck an answer).


I've also added Blood Moon to the sideboard, cutting Absolute Law and white all together. The reason for this is simple. The impact from Blood Moon on decks are far more heavy than Absolute Law, which almost only gets boarded in against Gobs or Zoo. Zoo already packs other removal in StP or PtE and their creatures aren't as red as you could believe.
It isn't the creatures that are the problem (either forestwalk, their bigger, swarm, Lords to oversize them), it is the R spells which by playing Blood Moon you allow them still to use. A Mountain spells death to a Lord without another 2 lords in play. Sure they can't play Path/Swords, but they pack upwards of 8 burn spells. In addition, they will also see you coming the third game and search out their basic Plains and Forest (I still seem to see most lists with at least one basic of each type) nullifying BloodMoon and allowing Pride-Mage to kill off the enchantment.
In addition, Law is their specifically for the 'Red' based matchups, which are really Elves primary weak matchups (forgoing combo). Sure Bloon Moon will have more impact against Merfolk, Landstill, Eva Green Etc. than Law, but your primary concern should be strengthening the Zoo matchup, (which Blood Moon doesn't do that well) and finding a card that perhaps works well against a range of other decks.
If your looking for a card that might screw Zoo over and other decks (which seems to be your goal) try Root Maze or Winter Orb, both of which are probably too weak an option against Zoo and the other decks to ever board them in (ala Moon).


On a closer inspection I realized that decks tend to pack tons of non basics since the fallback of Dragon Stompy decks. Most Zoo decks (one of our problem matchups) packs very little basic lands.
In fact, I played a total of 14 games against different Zoo decks last night and all in all four out of these 14 decks had a total of two basic lands each. The odds of Blood Moon having a great impact in these games are far better than Absolute Law doing anything except dodging a bolt now and then.
Sample mana base taken from Zoo thread:
2 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
More than enough Basics and Fetches to get around Blood Moon


And due to the addition of Blood Moon, I could easily cut Choke from the board. Adding a mana denying enchantment over another.
If we compare the pros and cons of Blood Moon against Choke, you quickly realize that Blood Moon has little or no effect against Merfolks (except making Mutavaults and Wastelands mountains), it doesn not in fact deny them mana, which Choke did. But considering the upswing Blood Moon gives us in other matchups would, in my opinion, justify the cut of Choke for Blood Moon.
Blooon Moon is better than Choke in other matchups; I agree. Still, Choke is questionable in the SB as Elves have decent game against Blue based decks as it is. It certainly shouldn't be a 3-4 of.


Further into the discussion, I still think that the Relic of Progenitus maindeck is a "ok" card, but there could be better ones, no doubt. I'm trying to come up with something that could replace this (I still think that Relic is good in battles against Grim Lavamancers, Tombstalkers, Nimble Mongeese, Goyfs, etc.).
If your that concerned you could try Eyeblight's Ending...


I'm not that happy with the Krosan Grips actually, I would rather see these as Viridian Zealots or something of the like, due to the fact that they are elves. But they don't have Split Second now do they? Very hard decision here.
I don't know how many times I've been so unsatisfyed when I resolve a Sylvan Messenger, revealing no or one elf and the rest being lands, Natural Orders and borded Krosan Grips, resulting in them ending up on the bottom of my library. I've been testing Viridian Zealots in this slot, although they're pretty underwhelming when there's a Engineered plague on the board and it doesn't dodge CB that effective. I've had my eyes on Nullmage Sheperd, with it's cmc at 4 and a pretty fat body, but she requires 3 other guys to actually do anything. Would be a house against Enchantress though.
Anyone have a thought on how I could adress this issue?
Grips are Grips. Anything else isn't any better (and most of the time far worse) otherwise you would have heard about it by now. It's interaction with Messenger (or lack of) sucks but there isn't much you can do.



Hope that helps

[Hawdes]

Hope that helps

Regarding the Relics vs. Eyeblight's Ending... I do believe that 1 mana vs. 3 is a big deal, since when you hit 3 you usually want to play a lord or invest the mana in abilities/other elves.
Blowing a Relic also nets you a new card. Which seems pretty decent in a deck that otherwise only rely on Sylvan Messenger. But I don't know. Might be a bomb. I will try it out.

[evilgorrilaz]

Is Thorn of Amethyst worth it in the sideboard? Ive been testing a list similar to Hawdes, and against decks like ANT/Belcher, it seems a lot better to put in something like Thorn since I don't seem to be able to outrace their combo.

By the way, sorry if this has been addressed previously. I haven't seen it.

[Hawdes]

Is Thorn of Amethyst worth it in the sideboard? Ive been testing a list similar to Hawdes, and against decks like ANT/Belcher, it seems a lot better to put in something like Thorn since I don't seem to be able to outrace their combo.

By the way, sorry if this has been addressed previously. I haven't seen it.

The problem of the deck isn't availability of boardcards against combodecks. The main issue is if it would matter to add x amount of cards against a matchup that's not even slightly favourable after sideboard.
In my opinion, it's better to make other matchups better at the cost of losing to combo. Combo decks only win fast if they get the nuts draw. Otherwise every point of damage counts, especially against ANT which is the most popular combo deck.
My play strategy against ANT is to overextend and attacking with every creature available, to inflict the most damage possible before they go off.
Sometimes it can win you games, resulting in them having to stop drawing cards due to low lifetotal, and they might end up without the win on hand.
If they play angels grace, they need to ANT twice, casting a Angel's Grace in between the ants, to not lose to themselves.

But if your meta is all combo, then an anti combo sideboard is the way to go.
My meta isn't that much combo, so I've totally neglected the combohate in my board.
As combo hosers, you always have City of Solitude, Amethyst, Sphere of Resistance, Rule of Law, Gaddock Teeg, Canonist etc. Try out the cards that would work for you. But be aware of the sideboarding plans Combo tend to have, bounce in Chain of Vapor, spot removal etc.
But if the meta is all combo, then this deck isn't the way to go.

Hope that helped.

[Teumie]

Given the new red 'board sweeper' I guess it becomes more necessary to pack anti-sweepers or white for absolute law or mirror entity.

The new card:

RR2
sorcery: does X damage to all creatures where X is the number of creatures on the battlefield ...

Sounds like a bomb to me (I'll be getting 4 of those, that's for sure)

[arebennian]

Firespout is just better.
- How often do you have more than 2 Lords in play. And even then the opponent doesn't have another burn/removal spell as well...
-How may decks that run a red based sort of sweeper can actually get to RR?
-Costs CMC4
-There are 5 Elves on the field. You sweep. Your Tarmo dies too.
-It isn't an instant.


If anything, and this is a big IF, it might get played in Goblins to reset the board and overwhelm the opponent with CA.

[Teumie]

what about that new "Omnath, locus of mana"?
I'm really intrigued by his abilities and maybe he could fit in a deck as this (which is able to generate lots of mana, as well as 'excessive' mana (mana which is not used during normal gameplay).

As I understood it, you can 'keep' your mana floating over several turns?

Only disadvantage is that he (again) costs 3 mana, which makes the mana curve very 3-based. unless you modify the whole concept of the deck ...

anyway, just my toughts

[Tivon]

That mana is better used for otherthings.

A packmaster or Mirror Entity (or chaining/bouncing Sylvan Messengers) are much better mana sinks than a legendary creature which isn't even an elf.

Messenger refills your hand, Packmaster gives a nice big body and lots of little death touch dudes, Mirror entity can allow you to "win now"

Ohmnon lets you get a basic forest or gain x life


I also wouldn't worry about the red sorcery. most likely its coming out turn 3, and if they have to reset the board at that time, you should already have gotten in for a fair amount of damage, in addition to forcing them to burn up their turn 4 to reset the board in a color that probably doesn't want to be playing control. Elves pumps out dudes real fast, which allows for a pretty quick recovery

[Radiant]

Right now, the only thing this deck wants from Worldwake is Joraga Warcaller. I tested this guy a few days ago and he was almost always really huge.

[woremak]

I've played a couple of games with warcaller and he's fairly bonkers. He definitely helped against red sweepers, as he's at worst another lord and usually the difference maker. The scalable factor is pretty sweet as we now get a lord that gives +3/+3 regularly. Though somebody did manage to play a vampire hexmage and remove all the counters...

[Hawdes]

Hey guys,
I thought that I should report my latest results from taking this deck for a spin. I attended at a Mox-tournament in Gothenburg, Sweden. I placed 11 out of 49 players with a meta filled with Zoo, Combo (ANT, Dream Halls, Belcher etc.), different Loamdecks, 43 Lands, Team America.
Pretty good in my opinion.

This was the list I took for a spin:

4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Forest

1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Progenitus
4 Priest of Titania
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Champion
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Natural Order
3 Blood Moon
2 Boreal Druid

Sideboard:

1 Magus of the Moon (didn't have a 4th Blood Moon at the time)
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Eyeblight's Ending
3 Planar Void
1 Woodfall Primus
4 Krosan Grip

It performed very well, and the maindeck Blood Moons made a big difference in a lot of matchups. Although I don't have very detailed step by step match reports, I do have the matchups and results from the matchups.

Round 1: 43 Land
Started game 1 with a turn 2 Blood Moon played from Forest, Taiga and a Mana Elf, which bought me tons of time against his deck. Eventually I lost the first game with him at 6 life. He got a Constant Mists/Crucible of Worlds lock just in time. I would've finished him off the next turn. I had to scoop due to no maindeck answer to this.
0-1

I boarded:
+1 Magus of the Moon + 1 Woodfall Primus +2 Krosan Grip
-1 Boreal Druid -1Wren's Run Packmaster, -1 Elvish Champion, -1 Sylvan Messenger

Started with a turn 3 Blood Moon, crippling him enough to go full beatdown. He did resolve a Natural Emergence against my team, although I had a nice Krosan Grip waiting for it. Got him down to 7 and he had one forests in play. In his turn he plays a Forest and passes. In my turn, I alpha strike his empty board, hoping that he didn't have Constant Mists, but what do you know, he fogs and I pass the turn with a NO in hand. He draws a card and passes the turn.
I play NO, getting Woodfall Primus, shoots his forest last forest, in response he plays Constant Mists with buyback.
The next turn he doesn't get a forest and scoop.
1-1

In the last game I get a T2 Magus of the Moon, followed by tons of elves and lords, beating his face in due to him not being able to fog me.
2-1

Game2: Zoo

I win the first round due to a turn 2 Blood Moon and a turn 3 Packmaster, accompanied by tons of mana elves. He can't simply find the removal or mana for my Packmaster and he gets out of hand.
1-0

I boarded:
+3 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Sylvan Messenger, -1 Boreal Druid, -1 Quirion Ranger


Round two, I keep a pretty decent hand of 6 cards with Jitte and some mana elves/titania and two lands, not a fast one, but not a slow either. He plays a turn 1 Lynx, and bolts almost every elf I play once my Jitte hit's the table. Can't race the Lynx, who were accompanied by 2x Wild Nactal.

1-1

Round 3, what can I say... Turn 4 Progenitus seals the deal even with a bolt directed towards my priest of titania. I took some early damage from a 3 Pyrostatic Pillar, and another one got resolved in his turn 4. But as NO costs 4, it sealed the deal.

Game 3: Team America

Won 2-0. He didn't do much more than destroy some lands and Snuff some dudes, setting me back in time, although I had tons of mana from my elves and I was able to swarm him after I shot down his lonely Tombstalker with Eyeblight's Ending. His Goyfs wasn't a huge threat at 3/4 against my 6/6 elves.

Game 4: Zoo again
This player did the right thing, aiming all removal for my lords, resulting in me ending up with 1-1 guys in all three rounds.
They couldn't simply race his Nactal's, Lynxes and Apes.

Game 5: ANT

Lost round 1... Duh... This deck can't simply battle combo that efficient.
0-1

Round 2 resulted in a win for me, due to me maximizing the damage output from my elves. He went off with the combo at 13 life and revealing poorly, ending up in him killing himself.
1-1

Round 3 was lost on a Turn 2 win. Couldn't do much more than attacking with a Mana elf for 1 putting him at 19 life.

Game 6: Monoblack Whatever

I was faster than him, drew like a god and had 7/7 elves beating his Gatekeepes, Vampires and what not to oblivion. (Note to self, Imperious Perfect is huge against Gatekeeper of Malakir if he's online).
1-0

I boarded:
+2 Jitte
+3 Krosan Grip
-3 Blood Moon
-1 Boreal Druid
-1 Quirion Ranger

I got the taste of Engineered Plague (as expeted) and Darkblasts, leaving my team crippled. Couldn't come back and he finished me with a Nighthawk with Confidant backup.
1-1

In round 3 we went back and forth. Me trying not to overextend and him resolving Plagues and Damnations over and over again. I traded Krosan Grips for his Plagues and so on. He killed off my Progenitus 2 times in this game. But once I resolved it a third time with NO, he didn't stand a chance.

It was a blast to play, although I would do some changes with the list. Especially since Warcaller wil be out later. Might replace 2 Elvish Champions with 2 Warcallers and edit some other cards.
All in all I placed 11/49. My mate ended up in top 8 with ANT and we had a great time playing. Too bad I never used the Planar Voids, not a single ichorid deck in the tournament.

[bluesbro]

Hey Source,
I’ve been following this thread and deck for the past month or so and wanted to give it a try. I played this list to 6-3 at the Starcity Richmond 5k over the weekend:


Lands:
5 Forest
3 Taiga
2 Savanah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Pendelhaven

Creatures:
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Priest of Titania
1 Wren’s Run Vanquisher
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Imperious Perfect
2 Elvish Champion
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Progenitus

Spells:
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order

Sideboard:
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Faerie Macabre


The deck was a blast to play and I felt like I had game vs. a lot of the field, though the Zoo and Combo match ups need help. I didn't miss the Sylvan Messengers because Survival just gives you so much advantage. The ESGs were also good, powering out guys and protecting from Dazes. Here’s how the tournament went:

Round 1: Richard with White Stax
In testing, my group found that this match up is actually not that bad because of all the mana the little green dudes make. Game 1 involved spewing lords and running him over. Game 2 he used Powder Keg to get rid of my Priests and I don’t have time to recover. Game 3, I Grip his Powder Keg and he plays Armageddon with Crucible in play. After I use my remaining mana elves to Grip his Crucible, the game is pretty much over.
1-0

Round 2: Stephen with U/r Painter Countertop
Game 1, he is able to get off Painter/Grindstone on me. I have a Survival in play and draw the Progenitus, attack with my onboard guys, and then Survival away the big guy each turn so that I don’t deck. I don’t have enough creatures to get there though and lose. Game 2, I establish a board of elves and lords to his 2 Painters. I resolve a Natural Order and actually grab a Pridemage to keep him off his combo long enough to win. Game 3 goes the same way, using Natural Order into Pridemage to keep his combo off. One of the 2 maindeck Pridemages should probably be a Harmonic Sliver to more efficiently attack artifacts/enchantments.
2-0

Round 3: Stephen with Belcher
My opponent makes 8 goblins turn 2 on the play and passes. I’m able to use Archdruid and Priests to 6 or so mana elves and another lord to stall him. When he plays a Taiga for mana to recombo, I can forest-walk through with Champion for the win. Game 2, I sideboard in Gaddock Teeg and the 2 Traps and hope to get there. His hand was very slow and I was able to Survival for Teeg. He didn’t have an answer and scooped. I’m pretty sure this match up is awful and my opponent’s hands must have been sub par.
3-0

Round 4: Jon (Avier) with Merfolk
I get paired up with my buddy Avier playing fish. Game 1, he plays Aether Vial and then dazes my Llanowar. He’s able to Vial out dudes while keeping my mana elves off the board. By the time I get out Survival and try to stabilize, he has a flying Kira and I have no way to block it. The maindeck Vanquisher should probably be a Thornweald Archer to give me a chance against flying attackers. Game 2, I’m able to run him over with dudes. Game 3, I crack a fetchland at his end of turn. He Submerges my Llanowar Elves in response and I can’t get to the 3 mana I need to play Choke. Jitte eventually comes down on his side and I can’t comeback.
3-1

Round 5: Alex with Zoo
I win Game 1 by grabbing Progenitus with Natural Order, probably the best game plan vs. Zoo. I sideboard in the 3 Kitchen Finks to stall his more powerful guys. Game 2, he is able to burn my mana guys while beating down with Goyfs and Steppe Lynxes. Game 3, I keep a sketchy 6 card hand with Natural Order and one elf. He has the burn for my guys and keeps me off of 4 mana and a guy while beating down for the win.
3-2

Round 6: John with Mono Black
Game 1, I dropped multiple lords and he never caught up. I side in 2 Grips for his sideboard Engineered Plagues but I’m not that worried with Qasali Pridemages in the deck. Game 2, he plays Hypno and then Hymn and I can’t recover fast enough. Game 3, I again drop lords, Grip his Plague and then beat him down.
4-2

Round 7: Jesse with Bant Countertop
I’m not able to get my mana guys out through his counter magic and then his Counterbalance stops my lords. Game 2, I resolve a Choke but he just uses Knight of the Reliquary to cash in his locked Islands for new ones and I lose. This match up should probably be in my favor but I didn’t have much practice with it. A Vexing Shusher in the sideboard might be needed to force through the lords vs. a heavy control deck.
4-3

Round 8: Christian with Belcher
I’m out of the prizes but the deck feels fine and I want to get some more experience with it. When my opponent plays first and simply passes to me, I put him on Belcher or Reanimator. Great. However, as I drop guys, he keeps passing waiting for a land to go off and then scoops to lethal damage on turn 4. Game 2, I keep a solid hand with dudes and a Mindbreak Trap. He goes off turn 2 but just loses to the Trap and scoops.
5-3

Round 9: Josh with Dredge
The lost round is against my buddy playing Ichorid Dredge. His dredges Game 1 don’t get there and his deck doesn’t do much of anything. Game 2, I remove 2 Ichorids with Faerie Macabre in response to a Cabal Therapy and, again, his deck doesn’t do much.
6-3

Survival Elves was a lot of fun to play, and all the Survival targets for the maindeck and board let you call the metagame and help the rough match ups. As for changes, I would go with:

Main
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Wren’s Run Vanquisher
+1 Thornweald Archer
+1 Harmonic Sliver
SB
-1 Tormod’s Crypt
+1 Loaming Shaman

[Elvish-Champion]

Hey Guys,
I' ve tested my Survival Elves List very often last weeks, and I have to say, that it works fine.

Here's the list.

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
8 Forest

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order

4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Priest of Titania
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Imperious Perfect
2 Elvish Champion
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Progenitus
2 Wren's Run Vanquisher


Sideboard??

3 Krosan Grip/or elves that can destroy artifacts, enchantments.
4 Chalice of the Void/ Thorn of Amethyst?
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus



I'm not really sure what to put into sideboard.
I hope you have suggestions to help me.
Thanks

[swoop]

What about Caller of the Claw vs board sweepers?

That could be nice as 1 off in Survival builds, or, in other builds, in SB.

[Justin]

Hey Guys,
I' ve tested my Survival Elves List very often last weeks, and I have to say, that it works fine.

Here's the list.

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
8 Forest

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order

4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Priest of Titania
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Imperious Perfect
2 Elvish Champion
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Progenitus
2 Wren's Run Vanquisher


Sideboard??

3 Krosan Grip/or elves that can destroy artifacts, enchantments.
4 Chalice of the Void/ Thorn of Amethyst?
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Relic of Progenitus



I'm not really sure what to put into sideboard.
I hope you have suggestions to help me.
Thanks

I really think you should be playing a full set of Quirion Ranger. This card helps with mana acceleration, both when you are missing land drops and with interactions with priests and archdruids. It also plays nicely with Imperious Perfect. Multiple rangers can really help you generate a ton of mana.

What do you cut to fit them in? I would cut Wren's Run Vanquisher. I don't like this card at all of Legacy elves. Yes, it is an undercosted 3/3 that can always trade with a goyf. The problem is that it is too slow for this kind of deck. You really shouldn't be worried about finding an answer for goyf becuase elves should be able to win a lot faster than decks that play goyf. You pretty much want your elves to do one of three things: (1) accelerate mana, (2) pump other elves, or (3) draw cards. Vanquisher does none of these things and doesn't belong in the deck.

I prefer Viridian Zealot to the Shaman, because it's nice to have the option of hitting enchantments (such as Counterbalance or Moat). You also might try one or two Joraga Warcaller. It is a game-ender if you have a lot of mana.

I eventually cut my Wirewood Symbiotes because they are not as necessary in this deck anymore. With all the "lords," elves are not as easily wiped out by pyroclasm/firespout spells, and not many decks play Wrath spells. You could also get away with cutting a couple Sylvan Messangers. You could probably cut your land count down to 17 and still be fine. In their place, I would add Elvish Spirit Guide to help you power out your Natural Order and other spells. Also, depending on the meta, you might run Faerie Macabre as a one-of. It's not an elf, but it's nice to be able to fetch with Survival.

[Elvish-Champion]

[QUOTE=Justin;458470]I really think you should be playing a full set of Quirion Ranger.

I prefer Viridian Zealot to the Shaman, because it's nice to have the option of hitting enchantments (such as Counterbalance or Moat). You also might try one or two Joraga Warcaller. It is a game-ender if you have a lot of mana.


First to Quirion Ranger.
Quirion Range is a very good card, but i think that you always want to have only 1 of them. In most situations you don't have enough lands to use his ability involvy. I also prefer Wren's Run Vanquisher, because they are good against big guys who I would lose against, for examply Phyrexian Dreadnought or Knight of the Reliquary. They are also good against ZOO. (In my Meta there are always many Dreadstills or Zoos present.)

Are you sure that Zealot is the best choice? he can get stifled, has manacost 2 (spell snare) only 1 Toughness and cost effectively 1 more mana.
I know that i can destroy enchantments with him, and the only one on which its usefull is moat, but the chance that i play against a moat is that low that I prefer Viridian Shaman? And he isn't that good against Counterbalance because he will countered for sure. In most situations its more possible to have an usefull artifact target.

And to Joraga Warcaller I only have to say, I "hate this card". I know i have a lot of mana and so on, but I prefer putting many creatures with my survival on the board( symbiote, messenger, etc) and dont want to spend the mana on guys like him.
It's might the best topdeck card in a patt situation, but that's all.

[Justin]

[QUOTE=Justin;458470]I really think you should be playing a full set of Quirion Ranger.

I prefer Viridian Zealot to the Shaman, because it's nice to have the option of hitting enchantments (such as Counterbalance or Moat). You also might try one or two Joraga Warcaller. It is a game-ender if you have a lot of mana.


First to Quirion Ranger.
Quirion Range is a very good card, but i think that you always want to have only 1 of them. In most situations you don't have enough lands to use his ability involvy. I also prefer Wren's Run Vanquisher, because they are good against big guys who I would lose against, for examply Phyrexian Dreadnought or Knight of the Reliquary. They are also good against ZOO. (In my Meta there are always many Dreadstills or Zoos present.)

Are you sure that Zealot is the best choice? he can get stifled, has manacost 2 (spell snare) only 1 Toughness and cost effectively 1 more mana.
I know that i can destroy enchantments with him, and the only one on which its usefull is moat, but the chance that i play against a moat is that low that I prefer Viridian Shaman? And he isn't that good against Counterbalance because he will countered for sure. In most situations its more possible to have an usefull artifact target.

And to Joraga Warcaller I only have to say, I "hate this card". I know i have a lot of mana and so on, but I prefer putting many creatures with my survival on the board( symbiote, messenger, etc) and dont want to spend the mana on guys like him.
It's might the best topdeck card in a patt situation, but that's all.

Ranger is great in multiples. They can allow to to untap your priests, archdruids, perfects, etc., multiple times and generate a lot of mana or creatures. Again, my problem with Vanquisher is that elves generally don't need to block. Hardly anyone plays Dreadnoughts anymore because Progenitus and Emrakul are more popular and Vanquisher cannot block them.

There are a lot of enchantments in this format, including some that Elves just lose to, so it's nice to have Zealot.

Warcaller is great as a one-of. You can fetch it with Survival when you have a lot of mana. Of course, you probably aren't generating a lot of mana because you aren't playing enough Rangers. If you up your Ranger count, you'll see how much better Warcaller is. He's also not terrible if you play him as a lord of three mana.

[frenchy-man]

Hi guys

Is it possible to play a different mana base like, only two taiga ?
And why only two imperious perfect ? Seriously, this card is way too strong to play only two of them. I would do -1 elvish champion +1 imperious perfect (it let you fetch the champion when you would win).

Genesis ? Spore frog (in sb for spore) ?

[Elvish-Champion]

[QUOTE=Elvish-Champion;458650]

Ranger is great in multiples. They can allow to to untap your priests, archdruids, perfects, etc., multiple times and generate a lot of mana or creatures. Again, my problem with Vanquisher is that elves generally don't need to block. Hardly anyone plays Dreadnoughts anymore because Progenitus and Emrakul are more popular and Vanquisher cannot block them.

There are a lot of enchantments in this format, including some that Elves just lose to, so it's nice to have Zealot.

Warcaller is great as a one-of. You can fetch it with Survival when you have a lot of mana. Of course, you probably aren't generating a lot of mana because you aren't playing enough Rangers. If you up your Ranger count, you'll see how much better Warcaller is. He's also not terrible if you play him as a lord of three mana.

Yes thats maybe right, but how many lands do you play? Normally i draw not more than 2 or 3 lands, i want to win within 4-5 Rounds and I won't bounce that many lands in this situation, I can't bounce that many if i have used him already, that's why i prefer to put Wirewood Symbiotes. And the Zealot kills what? Counterbalance? He cannot kill something else. So he is generally useless.



Hi guys

Is it possible to play a different mana base like, only two taiga ?
And why only two imperious perfect ? Seriously, this card is way too strong to play only two of them. I would do -1 elvish champion +1 imperious perfect (it let you fetch the champion when you would win).

Genesis ? Spore frog (in sb for spore) ?


Genesis is a bad idea, it costs 1 mana to put him in your grave first. than 3 in your upkeep, and he slows that much that it isnt very funny. Many Imperious Perfects are also not very good, also the Champion, because if you are already very fast, you only put 1 or 2 of them so that you can rumble in for full damage and you don't try to get the Overkill.
Spore Frog is useless. Where would you sideboard him in?
He doesn't work against Tendrils and against emrakul or so he is useless also against progenitus, it give you 1 more round, but it's generally very very bad.
2 Taigas are possible as well. Maybe play more fetchies or let it like this, its also fine if you got the luck to draw at least 1.

[Justin]

[QUOTE=Justin;459352]

Yes thats maybe right, but how many lands do you play? Normally i draw not more than 2 or 3 lands, i want to win within 4-5 Rounds and I won't bounce that many lands in this situation, I can't bounce that many if i have used him already, that's why i prefer to put Wirewood Symbiotes. And the Zealot kills what? Counterbalance? He cannot kill something else. So he is generally useless.

I've probably played this deck a thousand times, and I can't remember too many times when I needed to use Quirion Rangers ability but could not because I didn't have a land. Wirewood symbiotes can save you a guy, but they are also not elves themselves. Quirion Ranger has all the benefits of being an elf and has synergy with so many cards. Unless you are dodging removal, it's usually better to bounce one of your lands than one of your guys.

You are being silly in your arguments about Zealot. You ever have Engineered Plauge (which Zealot can kill if you have a lord in play) or Moat (which completely locks your deck down if you aren't running enchantment removal) dropped on you? You ever play against Enchantress? Lands (Manabond, Exploration). How about opposing Survivals? Trust me, there are plenty of reasons to play Zealot.

[Muradin]

So today I've piloted the Elvish-Champion's deck to a first place out of 41 participants in 6 rounds of swiss. The deck was the same as posted above only -1 Elvish Champion, -2 Vanquisher, -1 Shaman / +4 Elvish Spirit Guide. They were actually pretty good all day long and helped me to pull out Turn 2 Natural Order

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36604

I beat:
Reanimator 2-1 (lose against T2 Iona on green)
Bant Aggro 2-0
Merfolk 2-0
Belcher 2-0
Death and Taxes 2-0
New Horizons 2-0

The deck worked like a gem all day long and is definitely a strong contender in the current metagame.

My SB was:

1 Magus of the Moon
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Caller of the Claw
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip

[lebarion]

So today I've piloted the Elvish-Champion's deck to a first place out of 41 participants in 6 rounds of swiss. The deck was the same as posted above only -1 Elvish Champion, -2 Vanquisher, -1 Shaman / +4 Elvish Spirit Guide. They were actually pretty good all day long and helped me to pull out Turn 2 Natural Order

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36604

I beat:
Reanimator 2-1 (lose against T2 Iona on green)
Bant Aggro 2-0
Merfolk 2-0
Belcher 2-0
Death and Taxes 2-0
New Horizons 2-0

The deck worked like a gem all day long and is definitely a strong contender in the current metagame.

My SB was:

1 Magus of the Moon
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Caller of the Claw
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Krosan Grip

Congratz on the win! It's nice to see this deck doing well, I've picked it up recently and I feel it have many tools to do well in current metagame.

Can you give some details about your matches? Like how you beat Belcher(chalice helped here, I suppose), Reanimator (2 Relic of Progenitus were enough?), and how was the merfolk matchup (I find myself losing this more than I think I should, either because of Jiite or Sovereign and Wake Thrasher).

I'm also unsure about the NO + Progenitus package. Many times when I use the Progenitus kill I fell I could have won with elves anyway. How it worked for you?

[Elvish-Champion]

@lebarion:

I answer for Muradin, because he said that as well :D

Well it wasn't that hard against belcher because he only placed tokens which were too slow against mass of elves. Both games happened like this.
Meerfolk was easy because he hasn't good enough counters to counter Survival of the Fittest and/or Natural Order, both games were very easy to win.
Progenitus was a very good win option. Often he could have won without Progenitus, but it's always a good "joker" if it goes hard.
That's all : )

[lebarion]

I've piloted a Survival Elves list to a first place out of 24 people in 5 rounds of swiss last saturday. You can find the report here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18068-[Report]-Forestwalking-in-the-park-1st-place-with-Elves-in-So-Paulo&p=467401).

My matches were:
MonoBrown Stax 2-1
Merfolk 2-0
Countertop Ugw with NO-Prog 2-0
Supreme Blue 2-0
Dredge - ID (played for fun and won 2-0)

I opted for a list without Natural Order. I also use one or two more lands than the usual lists as I feel they are important if your opponent can burn your mana elves.
As you can see by my results, the deck was great all day :). I'm pretty satisfied with it, the only slots I'm not sure being the Wren's Run Vanquishers.

[GreenOne]

New card:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106878&d=1277957032

Basically, a survival with a single activation a turn (unless you have Ranger or Symbiote online), and a couple of legs.
Might find its place here?

[lebarion]

New card:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106878&d=1277957032

Basically, a survival with a single activation a turn (unless you have Ranger or Symbiote online), and a couple of legs.
Might find its place here?

I was thinking about it right now. In a list with Survival and no Natural Order (like mine) It obviously doesn't replace Survival because of summoning sickness and tapping for activating the ability. But it provides more "Survival effects", and dodge Needle or enchantment hate (although I see this as a non-issue).

Right now I'm not very excited about in this shell, but maybe its place is in a list with Natural Order and no Survival, for example, replacing Survival in Elvish-Champion's list.

A card that deserves to be tested a lot, for sure.

[Hawdes]

I'm puzzled ... All elf decks state that Zoo/Boros are even matchups... But I can't simply understand how...
In each match, both in testing and tournamet, I get my balls burned out when piloting elves...
I've tested the combo Elves, Survival Elves, Aggro Elves with and without NO...
The only card that remotely gives me a theoretical chance at winning is a T2 NO hoping that they can't burn the sac in response or burn it out even earlier...

What's the deal? How should I play against Zoo? Slow roll them or just straight out force in my creatures.
I've been trying everything without success, even maindeck Absolute Law etc.

[sco0ter]

The only card that remotely gives me a theoretical chance at winning is a T2 NO hoping that they can't burn the sac in response or burn it out even earlier...


They can't burn the sac in response. Sacrifice is a cost.

[Justin]

I don't like Fauna Shaman because you have to wait a turn to use it and it can only be used once per turn. Elves is a deck that is about speed, and the Shaman is too slow. I would rather play Elvish Visionary (which doesn't make the cut, either) because it nets me an extra card right away. Also, if you want to play the Shaman, what do you take out? I suppose it is better than Wren's Run Vanquisher, but you should not be playing those anyway.

[lebarion]

I'm puzzled ... All elf decks state that Zoo/Boros are even matchups... But I can't simply understand how...
In each match, both in testing and tournamet, I get my balls burned out when piloting elves...
I've tested the combo Elves, Survival Elves, Aggro Elves with and without NO...
The only card that remotely gives me a theoretical chance at winning is a T2 NO hoping that they can't burn the sac in response or burn it out even earlier...

What's the deal? How should I play against Zoo? Slow roll them or just straight out force in my creatures.
I've been trying everything without success, even maindeck Absolute Law etc.

I believe the Zoo matchup is positive if and only if your opponnent doesn't know how to play against you. If they try to win the race, chances are your elves suddenly became huge and probably forestwalkers. Anyway, your options are:
- with Survival Elves, you can try to (1) play Survival and slow roll untill elves have Haste, and then play a lot of elves, chainning then with Messengers and Titanias, or (2) Play a token generator (Imperious Perfect or Wren's Run Packmaster) to block their guys and then win on top of card advantage. Packmaster shines here as he has a big body, too.
- with Combo elves, win in the turn 2 or 3, when the opponnent hopefully has tapped to play a dude.
- with NO Elves, play an early NO (note what sco0ter said, they can't burn your elf in response to NO)
- with Aggro elves, you can build your deck to beat Zoo, using Wren's Run Vanquisher, Wren's Run Packmaster, Wilt-leaf Liege and Wilt-leaf Cavalier. You're probably weakening other matchups doing so, though.

The problem is that your opponent can nullify most of these options with certain amount of removal, and Zoo packs more than enough of them.
The other problem is that when sideboarding against Zoo, just like versus combo or Dredge, you must found the hate in the very beggining of the game, otherwise it could be too late.
I've tested a lot of options (Absolute Law, Spore Frog, Eladamri, Lord of Leaves, Wall of Roots) and had some success with 4 Lightning Bolt. Swords to Plowshares is probably even better. It's not like the matchup is wonderful with 4 removal spells, but removing an early beater or a Lavamancer can buy you time to make your elves big enough.

[Hawdes]

They can't burn the sac in response. Sacrifice is a cost.

Yeah, I know... I phrased it like an idiot... I ment that if they keep my board clean, I can't resolve NO.
I just put a new list together that I will try out for a couple of days now with Fauna instead of Survival and some hate cards against Zoo.
I'm thinking Deathmark or Swords to Plowshares, but I'm not that sure?
I'm running some hatebears in my board and Horizon maindeck aswell as 1 off Savannah. It would be easier for me to get W than B, so Swords seems the way to go.
But I'm not sure.
All the advice I can get is appriciated, since that Zoo matchup makes me pull all my hair out...

I've tried Wren's Run Packmaster before, but my experience are that he's too mana intensive. It's hard to get him on the board due to Non existing elves and abscense of mana for generating tokens. They've bolted the elf I'm championing in response too many times giving them 2 for 1.
It's difficult to obtain 2 creatures on the board since they burn out everything quick so that we can't resolve NO when we hit 4 mana.

The list I'm running right now:


2 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Oran-Rief, The Vastwood
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
1 Taiga
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Savannah

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Priest of Titania
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Elvish Champion
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Imperious Perfect
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Norwood Priestess
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Progenitus

4 Natural Order

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
3 Swords to Plowshares (I really hate zoo)
3 Chalice of the void (don't really know what to use it against besides combo?)
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Magus of the Moon

[lebarion]

I'm thinking Deathmark or Swords to Plowshares, but I'm not that sure?

Swords to Plowshares is better. Deathmark doesn't kill Lavamancer.



All the advice I can get is appriciated, since that Zoo matchup makes me pull all my hair out...


I see your point on Packmaster.
I've actually given up the Zoo matchup, but if I would try to hate on them, I'd start with 4 Wilt-leaf Cavaliers MD and 4 Plowshares SD.

Another idea: Maybe it's too self-destructive, but what about Chalice for 1 Against zoo, siding out some of your 1CC guys?

[Hawdes]

Swords to Plowshares is better. Deathmark doesn't kill Lavamancer.



I see your point on Packmaster.
I've actually given up the Zoo matchup, but if I would try to hate on them, I'd start with 4 Wilt-leaf Cavaliers MD and 4 Plowshares SD.

Another idea: Maybe it's too self-destructive, but what about Chalice for 1 Against zoo, siding out some of your 1CC guys?

Siding in Chalice vs. Zoo has also been a thought. But I haven't been so sure and too much of a coward trying that...
It doesn't hurt that much to lose Wirewood, and some 1 drop mana elves to be honest. They get burned off anyway.
And we still have game with cmc 2 and 3 dudes. And with Fauna, chalice @ 1 makes all 1CC guys tutor fodder.
So it might be worth a shot... It must hurt Zoo more than Elves. Giving us much more tempo and denying Lavamancer's, Nactal's, and Lightning bolt to start with.

What's your thought on Norwood Priestess? I haven't seen many lists playing her. Could be nice when you need a way to get dudes into play with low resources. If you have Prog in hand you could easily drop him from your hand, or even a lord/hermit/packmaster.

I've added Deranged Hermit instead of Packmaster to give me "CA" in tokens. To get the same amount of dudes on the board with packmaster costs 12 mana + the initial 4 for the packmaster. Hermit only costs 5 + echo if you want him to stick around, and he could be bounced with Wirewood for token shinnanigans.

[sharnaak]

Hello, this is my first post here =P
I found this forum and this topic while searching for some proper list for my elves deck, or just something that could give me some new idea to tweak it a bit...
At the moment i'm playing this list


Creatures 36

4 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Priest of Titania
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Elvish Champion
3Imperious Perfect
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Progenitus
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Mirror Entity
1 Caller of the Claw

Spells 7

4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Natural Order

Lands 17

4 Forest
2 Taiga
2 Savannah
3 Windswept Heat
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland

My "standard" sideboard is this one :

1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Caller of the claw
2 Choke
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
1 Harmonic Convergence

I find myself playing pretty much evenly with most of the decks; the most problematic card so far is "Hibernation" since it's way worse than a Perish which i can pretty much counter with the caller of the claw.

About the Norwood Priestess it looks pretty nice, i never saw it listed either but i'm actually thinking of picking one to test it out, with Qurion Rangers and Wirewood Symbiote it could start some pretty nice combo.

[Muradin]

Against Zoo I think it is near impossible to win with Elves Beatdown. You either have to combo of with Survival (which is hard because they have 4 Pridemage and a fuck ton of removal) or go for Natural Order. The Natural Order way has given my most of my wins in testing against Zoo so far. I run 4 ESG so it is basically pretty easy to power out a Natural Order early on assuming that you have one. So far I've always had more elves than Zoo had removal and even if they get something crazy like: "Lavamancer, Nacatl, 2x Fetchland, 3 Lightning Bolt" in their opening hand you can wait till you got 5 mana out of any combination of lands and ESG. Then you just drop a 1 mana elf and NO. I feel that zoo has bad chances of racing Progenitus because of all the crappy little elves you can throw into their guys to stay alive.

Besides, against zoo you have to act confidently and make them believe you got awesome hands every game. Having the deck in foil also helps there, because it makes your cards look way more precious, important and dangerous.(The same is true for Dredge) It will slow them down a lot and help you to make them kill any mana elves with their precious removal instead of Lords or other good cards. Tell them while playing how good that matchup is for you (even if it isnt) and make them believe you are about to go off even if you got only chaff.

Running Swords to Plowshares in the board to kill Lavamancer also seems to be pretty good.

[sharnaak]

The things that usually i side in against a zoo are the magus of the moon and the burrentons, if you can slow him down with a well played wasteland usually you end up swarming him.

NO in your first end is usually as good as a win against them as well, with the spirit guide you can pop it on your second turn even...

[lebarion]

Siding in Chalice vs. Zoo has also been a thought.

I've played a few games agaist Zoo using Chalice and was unimpressed. Maybe I was a little bit unlucky, but when it lands my opponent always had at least one 1-mana guy, and Qasali eventually showed up, making their Tarmogoyfs even bigger.



What's your thought on Norwood Priestess?


I'm not sure, she seems too costly and too fragile. Her effect seems nice, but only if she's haste.



I've added Deranged Hermit instead of Packmaster to give me "CA" in tokens. To get the same amount of dudes on the board with packmaster costs 12 mana + the initial 4 for the packmaster. Hermit only costs 5 + echo if you want him to stick around, and he could be bounced with Wirewood for token shinnanigans.

Deranged hermit looks promising. Many times I was disappointed with Packmaster because he's so slow. However, Packmaster's ability to continuously generate tokens seems better against control than Deranged Hermit.

[AznSeal]

Whats the general consensus on adding the Glimpse+Grapeshot engine?

The combo pieces seems to be searchable via survival.

My current list

Lands: 14
5 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Gaea's Cradle

Creatures: 33
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Priest of Titania
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Elvish Champion
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Progenitus
1 Viridian Zealot

Others: 13
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Summoner's Pact
3 Survival of the Fittest
3 Natural Order
1 Grapeshot

No SB yet

[lebarion]

I don't like putting too many engines in the deck for two main reasons:
1 - The elves count got too low,
2 - Not all engines work well together. For example, I feel Priest of Titania and Elvish Archdruid are great with Survival, but they are not so good with Glimpse. Heritage Druid and Nettle Sentinel, on the other hand, are essential for Glimpse, but you never fetch them with Survival (except if you want to combo with Glimpse).

I still few that Survival with a multi-lord backup plan is the way to go. However, I know from the Combo Elves thread that some people are testing and liking multiple-engine lists.

If you test the list, let me know what you think.

[Elvish-Champion]

Whats the general consensus on adding the Glimpse+Grapeshot engine?

The combo pieces seems to be searchable via survival.

My current list

Lands: 14
5 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Gaea's Cradle

Creatures: 33
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Priest of Titania
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Elvish Champion
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Progenitus
1 Viridian Zealot

Others: 13
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Summoner's Pact
3 Survival of the Fittest
3 Natural Order
1 Grapeshot

No SB yet


The Problem with this is, that you want to draw many many Elves, and its very very dependant on your draw. I already played Elfball and I have to say " it sucks" really hard.
You can try such combinations but you will see, that you won't draw enough creatures normally.

[lebarion]

What's your opinion regarding Viridian Zealot versus Viridian Shaman?

I'm using Zealot so far, because I feel good knowing that I have a maindeck answer for Moat, Solitary Confinement, and so on. However, these enchantments are pretty rare where I play.
Vials and Jittes, on the other side, are very common, and I've found myself a couple times having only 2 or 3 mana available agains an active Jitte, making Zealot useless. Besides, I can recurr Shaman with Symbiote, while Zealot is a one-shot.

Do you feel maindeck enchantment hate is needed? Why/Why not?

Thanks!

[Galroth]

I'm considering removing Anger in order to run a Wasteland proof manabase. Seems that a good number of games I lose happen in the first turn or two when untimely land destruction, or a bolt of one of my 1cc mana elves stunts my development. If this deck gets off the ground it's near unstoppable.

[lebarion]

I'm considering removing Anger in order to run a Wasteland proof manabase. Seems that a good number of games I lose happen in the first turn or two when untimely land destruction, or a bolt of one of my 1cc mana elves stunts my development. If this deck gets off the ground it's near unstoppable.

I've had this kind of problem, too. My current manabase is 9 Forests, 1 Pendelhaven, 1 Mountain, 2 Taiga and 6 Fetches, summing 19 lands. I know it is a lot, but I rarely get flooded, It is very solid against land destruction and I usually have a Mountain in play when Anger is in the grave.

I've dropped white a long time ago, but I'm trying the Mirror Entity combo again and I'll try to develop a solid manabase for Grw.

[Ricardolucente]

Had anyone try muradin version? I´m trying it but some times i think it´s too slow.
(sorry my english i didn´t write so well)
Magic night Team - Brasil

[lebarion]

Had anyone try muradin version? I´m trying it but some times i think it´s too slow.
(sorry my english i didn´t write so well)
Magic night Team - Brasil

I've played a version similar to Muradin's list for some time, with the following changes:

-2 Wirewood Symbiote
-4 Elvish Spirit Guide
-1 Fyndhorn Elves
+1 Forest
+1 Priest of Titania
+3 Elvish Champion
+2 Imperious Perfect


I ended up dropping the NO-Prog combo to increase the elves count.
What do you mean by "too slow"? Can you elaborate?

For what is worth, I'm trying to fit Mirror Entity combo in my list (currently Gr) again. If anyone have opinions on it, please share.
Cheers!

[Justin]

So has anybody tried Fauna Shaman in this deck? My first impression was that it wouldn't be so good, but I noticed that Patrick Chapin ran it in Columbus in a non-elves survival deck. Since the Shaman is an elf and ups your survival count, I was wondering if anyone had success playing it.

[Ricardolucente]

Well, some times you have no cretures to make a survival, and the Messengers show more survival and NO everithing you don´t want that moment.

I´m trying a new list but it´s a prototipe yeath.

4 TROPICAL ISLAND
4 MUTAVALT
4 Forest
4 Myst rainforest
4 ISLAND

4 Elvish Champion
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 WEN´S RUN VANQUISHER or (TALARA´S BATALION)
4 Imperious Perfect
4 JORAGA WAR CALLER or (QUIRION RANGER)
4 Wilt-Leaf Liege or (WOLF SKULL SHAMAN)

4 VIAL AETHER
4 DAZE
4 STANDSTILL
4 SPELL PIERCE

// Sideboard
SB: 3 jitte
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 CHALISE OF VOID
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Krosan Grip

What do you think? my base to this is a merfolk deck. I was wondering why Merfolk can succeed if both elves also have lords?

[lebarion]

@Justin: I've not tried Fauna Shaman. In fact, unless someone shows or I realize a very good reason to play it, I don't intend to test it. It doesn't seem to improve the bad matches nor the overall consistency of the deck.

@ Ricardo: First of all, this seems to be a completely different deck and probably should be posted in a new topic in the New and Developmental Decks forum.
Secondly, have you tested it? The manabase seems awful and the deck seems unfocused. The merfolk matchup gets worse and the Zoo matchup is not improved. Combo get's a little (very little) better, but this is not enough to support the changes. If you intend to follow this path, just play merfolk. You'll have a better manabase and better combo matchup, among other benefits.
By the way, not drawing elves from Messenger is the reason I've dropped the Natural Order combo.

[GreenOne]

@Justin: I've not tried Fauna Shaman. In fact, unless someone shows or I realize a very good reason to play it, I don't intend to test it. It doesn't seem to improve the bad matches nor the overall consistency of the deck.
I tested it in 4x and it was really too redundant. You do want to see a shaman or a survival during a match, but you don't want to open hands with 2-3 of them.
I'm now down to 1 shaman. 5x survivals seems enough, and you have a "survival" to tutor up if they destroy your enchantment. Usual survival list plays Witness to tutor it to get a disenchanted survival. We can't play witness cause it's not an elf, and Shaman really comes in handy here.

[Justin]

I tested it in 4x and it was really too redundant. You do want to see a shaman or a survival during a match, but you don't want to open hands with 2-3 of them.
I'm now down to 1 shaman. 5x survivals seems enough, and you have a "survival" to tutor up if they destroy your enchantment. Usual survival list plays Witness to tutor it to get a disenchanted survival. We can't play witness cause it's not an elf, and Shaman really comes in handy here.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I've been running Shaman as a singleton now as well. Survival decks obviously work much better when you get your survival. One Shaman seems good, and if you have a Survival and a Shaman in your hand at the same time, simply pitch the Shaman to the Survival to start your engine running.

[lebarion]

That's exactly what I was thinking. I've been running Shaman as a singleton now as well. Survival decks obviously work much better when you get your survival. One Shaman seems good, and if you have a Survival and a Shaman in your hand at the same time, simply pitch the Shaman to the Survival to start your engine running.

This makes a lot of sense. I'll test him as a one-of and post my impressions.
I've been thinking more about it and I think that it may have a good effect of making your opponent tryiing to get rid of it as soon as possible.
I've also realized that, as Shamman activates only once per turn, I probably use him to fetch what I need at the moment (Archdruid or Messenger., for example) instead of fetching Anger and Squee first.

On another subject, how do you feel about Saito's Merfolk build? I think Merfolk with Coralhelm Commander was not that easy, and the black splash makes things worse. Have you tested this matchup?

[Ricardolucente]

Well in my tests i´ve seem a problem with the engine of this deck:
1 - To combo with survival you have to tap yours elves to gerate mana
2 - While you gerate mana you can´t atack
3 - You depends of a full hand to cast creatures

If you oponent burn yours firsts mana elves you will not get mana to make the deck work
I´m really think in add the vials what y hope help against it, cause you dont have to tap many elves to gerate mana and let the to atack.
I´m thinking in use Harmonize while messengers too.

[lebarion]

Well in my tests i´ve seem a problem with the engine of this deck:
1 - To combo with survival you have to tap yours elves to gerate mana
2 - While you gerate mana you can´t atack
3 - You depends of a full hand to cast creatures

If you oponent burn yours firsts mana elves you will not get mana to make the deck work
I´m really think in add the vials what y hope help against it, cause you dont have to tap many elves to gerate mana and let the to atack.
I´m thinking in use Harmonize while messengers too.

You seem to be testing against Zoo, which is a bad matchup. You're right, if they burn your mana elves, it is very hard to recover in time. Absolute Law in the side tries to improve this.

That said, you must notice a few things:
- You may wait for the next turn to attack. A 5/5 Priest of Titania is pretty scaring.
- Not all your elves tap to generate mana. Sylvan Messenger is a great attacker, and with three or four lords in the battlefield, so are Elvish Champion, Quirion Ranger, Joraga Warcaller, Wren's Run Packmaster and Vanquishers. I know not all of these are staples, but you should be using at least a couple of them.
- With Titania or Archdruid, Quirion and a couple other elves, you are able to generate a significant amount of mana tapping only one creature.
- Once you have enough priests and archdruids in play, discard Squee for Survival searching for Messenger and your hand is suddenly full of elves. Then you can carry on with your plan.

Maybe you can post the build or tell us the matchup you are testing, so we can give more specific tips.
Oh, and let us know how do you like Aether Vial. I've tried and dismissed them a long time ago, but don't remember why :)

[Justin]

This makes a lot of sense. I'll test him as a one-of and post my impressions.
I've been thinking more about it and I think that it may have a good effect of making your opponent tryiing to get rid of it as soon as possible.
I've also realized that, as Shamman activates only once per turn, I probably use him to fetch what I need at the moment (Archdruid or Messenger., for example) instead of fetching Anger and Squee first.

On another subject, how do you feel about Saito's Merfolk build? I think Merfolk with Coralhelm Commander was not that easy, and the black splash makes things worse. Have you tested this matchup?

I have not tested against a Saito-style Merfolk build. In general, Elves have a very positive matchup with Merfolk. They don't have the removal to slow you down, and you win with superior mana acceleration and card draw. The Saito build, however, runs Engineered Plauge and Perish in the sideboard. These cards are devastating to Elves. I imagine you will win game one most of the time (maindeck spell pierces aren't so hot against Elves), and then try to win one of the next two games in which the match turns unfavorable for you.

[Ricardolucente]

You seem to be testing against Zoo, which is a bad matchup. You're right, if they burn your mana elves, it is very hard to recover in time. Absolute Law in the side tries to improve this.

That said, you must notice a few things:
- You may wait for the next turn to attack. A 5/5 Priest of Titania is pretty scaring.
- Not all your elves tap to generate mana. Sylvan Messenger is a great attacker, and with three or four lords in the battlefield, so are Elvish Champion, Quirion Ranger, Joraga Warcaller, Wren's Run Packmaster and Vanquishers. I know not all of these are staples, but you should be using at least a couple of them.
- With Titania or Archdruid, Quirion and a couple other elves, you are able to generate a significant amount of mana tapping only one creature.
- Once you have enough priests and archdruids in play, discard Squee for Survival searching for Messenger and your hand is suddenly full of elves. Then you can carry on with your plan.

Maybe you can post the build or tell us the matchup you are testing, so we can give more specific tips.
Oh, and let us know how do you like Aether Vial. I've tried and dismissed them a long time ago, but don't remember why :)

Well the vial i´m trying cause i´m tired of get Swords to Plowshares in fyndorn, llanowar and priest elves.
I hope that with the vial we can make lords with out need the mana elves.
Look the merfolks deck, the vial goblins, they use it, the elves have so many lords as the merfolks and goblins have.

[lebarion]

I'm testing Fauna Shaman and I'm very pleased with the results. I started with them as a 1-of, but I'm currently running the whole playset, as it can bait a counterspell, and I'm not worried about seen multiples as I can discard the excess to the one that sticks.
As expected, it really must be used very differently from Survival. I see it more as a "Elf Matron" than as Survival 5-8. Early game I usually fetch Titania or Archdruid, and late game I go for Sylvan Messenger or Wren's Run Packmaster.

As a last note, I'm disliking Elvish Champion more and more recently. It really shines against Forests, of course, but when I'm trying to set up my army it is not very good, and giving Mutavaults +1/+1 and Forestwalk is no good in today's environment. I'm trying Wilt-leaf Liege in its place, and I'm liking it because it is big on its own and, besides pumping my elves, it pumps my wolves too. What do you think about it? Too expensive?

[Curby]

I guess it's meta-dependent but it doesn't seem all that horrible. Thanks to Survival trickery, however, you can just run a single copy to walk over any deck with a Forest.

[Koby]

I've played a few games with a Elves Survival list featuring a red splash for Anger and a SB Magus of the Moon (rapes *-still decks) and Emrakul as the "quick" kill option.

I essentially took my combo Elves list, cut Glimpse and Pact for NOPro and added up to 4 ESG. It works well enough, but I feel like there could be a more focused or streamlined version for what I'm trying to accomplish. My goal for this deck is to have explosive starts with either NO-Pro, or a Survival-backed Emrakul if I see an opening. Otherwise, it's just regular old Tribal Elf beatdown.

Since I still have both Heritage Druid/Nettle Sentinel in the list, I feel like it's missing the Glimpse engine - but it's a tough call. What do you think could be improved in this list?
// Engines
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Natural Order

// Fatties
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Progenitus

// Utility
1 Anger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Elvish Champion
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Masked Admirers

// Pointy-eared Bastards
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
4 Priest of Titania
3 Elvish Visionary

// Lands
7 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga

Sideboard
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Imperious Perfect
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Krosan Grip
4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Caller of the Claw

[(nameless one)]

rukcus:

I was testing your Glimpse Survival version on MWS and I never had any complains with it (actually, my complain is trying to save up to purchase real Survivals)

Any how, you mentioned that you're trying to get the deck streamlined. Is there any matchups that youre having trouble with with the old Glimpse list?

lebarion:

Would you like to share your current list?

[lebarion]

lebarion:
Would you like to share your current list?

This is what I'm planning to run next weekend:

Gr Survival Elves
-- 19 Lands
8 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Pendelhaven
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
1 Mountain

-- 7 Survival Package
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wirewood Symbiote

-- 34 Elves
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Sylvan Messenger
2 Wren's Run Packmaster

-- 15 Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Viridian Shaman
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Masticore
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn

Although I'm pretty happy with this list, I'm sure there's a lot of options that can be considered. The flexible slots, from my point of view, are:
4 Fauna Shaman - can be any combination of Wren's Run Vanquisher and Viridian Zealot/Viridian Shaman
4 Wilt-leaf Liege - can be Elvish Champion or Joraga Warcaller
1 Wren’s Run Packmaster - can be Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn or Joraga Warcaller

I've never been a fan of Glimpse elves, so I usually stay away from Nettle Sentinel, Heritage Druid and Elvish Visionary, but I like rukcus' list a lot.

@(nameless one), you seem to be familiar with all these "engines" (Survival, glimpse, NO and Sylvan Messenger). Do you have a preference?

[(nameless one)]

My personal preference is the Sylvan Messenger aggro list (since I currently do not own Survival of the Fittest and Natural Orders). I have been an elves player since I started playing Magic (back in the Onslaught days, but it was mostly multiplayer kitchen table casual stuff) so I have most elves. I am working on getting Survivals and NOs

If I did own these cards, I actually would pilot ruckus' survival-glimpse list. That list can pull wins out of nowhere. Last night, I was just playing with this dude with B/W staxx-pox build. I was facing a Tabernacle and a Ghostly Prison. I only had a Priest, a Heritage Druid, a Forest and a Survival on my side (He wasted my Stomping Grounds). I managed to ramp to Emrakul on the following turn for the win.

[Koby]

Just a small note from some testing I've done.

I've added Fauna Shaman x1 to my list, and it works really well. It's a good supplement to SotF and allows me to get rid of Progenitus/Emrakul from my hand as I seem to always be plagued with them in hand. It's a really good combo with Quirion Ranger too!

I also added 1x Wood Elves to enable Anger and help filter out land from the deck. It's pretty bonkers with Wirewood Symbiote when you've got nothing to do.

[(nameless one)]

Just a small note from some testing I've done.

I've added Fauna Shaman x1 to my list, and it works really well. It's a good supplement to SotF and allows me to get rid of Progenitus/Emrakul from my hand as I seem to always be plagued with them in hand. It's a really good combo with Quirion Ranger too!

I also added 1x Wood Elves to enable Anger and help filter out land from the deck. It's pretty bonkers with Wirewood Symbiote when you've got nothing to do.

What did you remove for them?

Would you like to share your new list?

[Koby]

Here's my latest list. It's still a work in progress, but it's mostly removing some combo elements that don't work without Glimpse, like Elvish Visionary. I also cut 1 Natural Order since I have been drawing Pro way too often.

// Fatties
1 Emrakul, the Aeon-Torn
1 Progenitus

// Engine
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Natural Order

// Utility
1 Anger
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
3 Wirewood Symbiote

// Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Quirion Ranger
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
1 Fauna Shaman
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Masked Admirers
1 Sylvan Messenger
1 Wood Elves

// Lords
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Elvish Champion
1 Joruga Warcaller

// Lands
7 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga

[Aadz0r]

@Rukcus
In my opinion you´re not playing enough lords. I have been playing NO Survival elves myself and have found that with more lords and less utility cards, you have even more win possibilities. Viridian Zealot and Viridian Shaman are not MB cards. There going to be of little use against most decks. In my opinion Terastodon is way better. Not only can it destroy lock cards like Moat and Humility, but if you have Anger in your graveyard, you could destroy 3 of your own lands and attack for 18. casting it shouldn't be that hard since generating 8 mana is easily achieved with the deck. Also a lot of cards you're playing are adapted from the combo elf list. They are not bad, but in this build I think you're better off running other cards like more lords and more Sylvan Messengers. This way you can even shift your gameplan to aggro which is a lot harder to do when running only 3 lords.
This is the list i've been running:

Elves (28):
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Fyndhorn Elves
3x Priest of Titania
4x Sylvan Messenger
4x Llanowar Elves
3x Quirion Ranger
1x Wood Elves
1x Imperious Perfect
2x Elvish Champion
4x Elvish Archdruid

Other Creatures (7):
1x Terastodon
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Anger
1x Progenitus
3x Wirewood Symbiote

Sorcery (4):
4x Natural Order

Enchantments (4):
4x Survival of the Fittest

Lands (17):
2x Taiga
1x Mountain
1x Gaea’s Cradle
7x Forest
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard (15):
4x Krosan Grip
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Faerie Macabre
2x Tormod’s Crypt
2x Choke
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Caller of the Claw

[lebarion]

Aadz0r, while i agree with you regarding the lords and the aggro plan, I believe Rukcus ' list is more "comboish". When testing an old list of Rukcus with Glimpse, I realized the matchups are really different. There's a lot of ways to build an elf deck, and it is hard to know the better.

On other notes, I took a more traditional Survival Elves list to a champ yesterday and did Top2. The metagame was odd, I faced:
UG Madness old-style (win 2-1)
UWR Landstill (win 2-1)
Red Death (win 2-1)
Goblins (win 2-1)
Dark Depths (lost 0-2)
Enchantress (ID)

I got 6th place and the prizes were decided here. We played the Top8 because the first and second place are invited to play a national championship next november.

Top8: Death and Taxes (win 2-0)
Top4: ProBant (win 2-1)

I'll post a detailed report when I have some time.

[Koby]

Good job on the finish! I'm looking forward to your report and compare lists.

I do agree that within the archetype "Green/X Survival Elves" there are many ways to build the final deck. I have posted in the combo elves thread regarding the combo version, and wish to differentiate the intent with the list(s) I post in here.

One note that I need to make regarding the new Reanimator decks (that eschew Mystical Tutor for other parts). I feel as though to make a more complete sideboard, we will need to address the Iona issue. To that respect, I suggest Stingscourger in the sideboard to address the egregious mistake of R&D's Iona. Said R&D also made Emrakul, so no hard feelings about that. :P

[lebarion]

Report here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18637-Forestwalking-to-Top-2-in-Taverna-Dracon&p=483606#post483606).
There're still some adjustments to be done, but I believe this list has a solid aggro plan while having good card-advantage tools and a combo finish when needed.

Regarding Reanimator I think Stingscourger is a very good option. I've considered Elvish Skysweeper before, but the mana requirement is too big - and of course you must play him before Iona, but this is not a big problem.

[Hawdes]

Report here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18637-Forestwalking-to-Top-2-in-Taverna-Dracon&p=483606#post483606).
There're still some adjustments to be done, but I believe this list has a solid aggro plan while having good card-advantage tools and a combo finish when needed.

Regarding Reanimator I think Stingscourger is a very good option. I've considered Elvish Skysweeper before, but the mana requirement is too big - and of course you must play him before Iona, but this is not a big problem.

I don't know the greatness of Stingscourger in Elves Survival, but in non-tribal survival decks that plays red, it's a great answer to decks playing Iona naming the color of your removal.
In my non-tribal survival deck I tend to play answers to these guys in three different colors (black, white and red).

[lebarion]

I don't know the greatness of Stingscourger in Elves Survival, but in non-tribal survival decks that plays red, it's a great answer to decks playing Iona naming the color of your removal.
In my non-tribal survival deck I tend to play answers to these guys in three different colors (black, white and red).

Although I like Stingscourger, I don't think he's needed because I use at least 4 slots for graveyard hate in the sideboard, and if Iona is put into play with Show and Tell we could always survival for Emrakul in response.

Right now I'm more worried with the Merfolk matchup, that is not so great with my list and I don't know what to do to enhance it. I'd like to put Llawan in the side and cast her somehow, but I don't like the idea of playing subpar elves just to generate blue, and Tropical Islands/Islands are out of question because of islandwalk.
Maybe I'm just too worried, however, as I already have 3 REB in the side.

[Hawdes]

Although I like Stingscourger, I don't think he's needed because I use at least 4 slots for graveyard hate in the sideboard, and if Iona is put into play with Show and Tell we could always survival for Emrakul in response.

Right now I'm more worried with the Merfolk matchup, that is not so great with my list and I don't know what to do to enhance it. I'd like to put Llawan in the side and cast her somehow, but I don't like the idea of playing subpar elves just to generate blue, and Tropical Islands/Islands are out of question because of islandwalk.
Maybe I'm just too worried, however, as I already have 3 REB in the side.

It's been a while since I played elves... I did put that deck on the shelf several months ago due to the fact that it cannot simply compete with todays aggro decks. Often the rounds end up in luck, either you get the nuts and dominate, or terribly fail due to no interaction.
The most important thing against tribal decks are to get them off lords, both against elves and merfolk, and that my friend is hard with a tribal-elves deck (aside from eyeblight's ending). I even splashed white in my previous elf deck to be able to sideboard more efficiently and run 4 maindeck StP. It's crucial to get rid of their Coralhelm's aswell since they'll fly over your pointy-ears anyway which is rather annoying...

I've never really liked the approach of elves since they lack heavily on removal choices (come on... Bee sting/Hornet sting...) and in a meta that more and more goes towards a creature format, I can't simply see a elf deck come out on the top unless they:
1. Get insanly fast.
2. Can play all spells without giving a shit about your opp. (that you're certain that your cards has enough power level to just win).
3. Have a way to interact with your opponent.

Neither of which are actually fulfilled at present time... Although I love the tribe, they're not simply there yet as Merfolks are.

[adrieng]

The idea is not from me, but from a french guy.
Elf survival has now to play vengevine, it helps against mass removal and it is really a fast kill.
Also fauna shaman is quite good, it makes regal force and vengevine so much better.
Both of these cards makes so many matchups better.
Ok here is the list I am testing :

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
12 [SHM] Forest (1)
2 [B] Taiga

// Creatures
1 [EVE] Regal Force
4 [M10] Elvish Archdruid
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [10E] Llanowar Elves
1 [JU] Anger
3 [IA] Fyndhorn Elves
4 [FNM] Priest of Titania
4 [EVG] Imperious Perfect
3 [FNM] Quirion Ranger
4 [M11] Fauna Shaman
4 [ROE] Vengevine
3 [EVG] Wirewood Symbiote
1 [9E] Viridian Shaman
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest

Please try the deck before saying things, I am quite sure both vengevine and fauna shaman makes the deck playable and a good tier 2.

[lebarion]

@Hawdes: I agree with you that Merfolks are a better tribe, specially because they can beat combo. But in my opinion, Elves can be insanely fast sometimes, and have spells of high power level. In the last championship I've played it, I've won many matches without Survival, just because cards like Imperious Perfect, Wren's Run Packmaster and Sylvan Messenger are really powerful in this deck. While I agree that elves lack removal, I think it is a pretty solid tier 2 - maybe even 1.5.

@adrieng: While I agree that Vengevine can be good sometimes, I still think it doesn't solve this deck's problems. It is good against mass removal, but so are Sylvan Messenger and Packmaster. I don't see how it can be so fast, too: with survival you can drop a bunch of elves or Emrakul for the win, and without survival Vengevine is 4/3 for 4 mana. In this deck, Vengevine doesn't have evasion, and makes you more dependat on Survival, what I'm always trying to avoid. Summing up, while I don't think it is bad, I don't think it adds enough. Sorry for not following your advice, as I haven't tested it ;). Maybe you could explain a little more.
Oh, and I don't like Regal force, too. Sylvan Messenger is just better in this build (not in combo elves, however).

[Ricardolucente]

I will try this new list what do you think?

4 MUTAVALT
14 Forest


4 LlANOWAR elves
2 Elvish Champion
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 TALARA´S BATALION
3 Imperious Perfect
3 JORAGA WAR CALLER
3 Priest of Titania
3 Quirion Rangers
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Elvish Lyrist
2 Elvish Scrapper
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Enrakul

4 SURVIVAL OF FINEST
4 HARMONIZE (i think better than messengers)

[Leftconsin]

@Ricardo
I'm noticing an omission of mountains to turn Anger on.

Also, one of the lovely things you can do with Messengers and Survival is chain them up with Priests and untap effects. It doesn't take that much to snowball into a hasted Emrakul.

[Aadz0r]

I´ve decided to give a white splash a try. I figured StP is just the removal which elves need and also by splashing white, Mirror Entity can be added to the MB. In my opinion he is a better choice for a lord than Joraga Warcaller, simply because he can dodge cards like firespout on instant speed, and easily get bigger when going for an all out attack, and he can go for infinite mana in combination with Wirewood Symbiote and Priest of Titania/Elvish Archdruid. In my short period of testing I have found that especially StP is a huge addition to the deck. Mirror Entity is also a great card. The only disadvantage this build gives, is that the Elf count drops even more. Mana screw is also taken care of using Quirion Ranger. my build now looks like this:
Land (17):
3x Forest
3x Taiga
3x Savannah
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath
1x Gaea’s Cradle

Elves (23):
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Fyndhorn Elves
3x Priest of Titania
3x Quirion Ranger
4x Elvish Archdruid
2x Elvish Champion
2x Imperious Perfect
1x Caller of the Claw

Other Creatures (8)
2x Mirror Entity
2x Wirewood Symbiote
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Anger
1x Terastodon
1x Progenitus

Instant’s (4):
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery’s (4):
4x Natural Order

Enchantments (4):
4x Survival of the Fittest

Sideboard (15):
4x Krosan Grip
3x Absolute Law
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Vexing Shusher
1x Magus of the Moon
2x open slot

Odd Card Choices:
Terastodon: This card is a bomb. It has won me the game countless times. It can destroy annoying cards like SotF, or lock pieces like Moat, Humility or Ensnaring Bridge and even land. When your opponent has no creatures and you have anger + mountain, you can even cast him, destroy 3 of your own lands and hit your opponent for 18. Overall, just a great card.

Caller of the Claw: I have been running into a lot of decks packing mass removal. It’s great to have a game 1 answer to this. However this card has also been useless to me quite some times. This slot is still open for discussion if anyone knows a good one-off to add.

Sideboard:
Krosan Grip: vs annoying enchantments and artifacts
Absolute Law: vs Goblins, Zoo, Burn and any other decks packing burn and/or red creatures
Red Elemental Blast: vs any deck with blue
Faerie Macabre: Survival target vs graveyard manipulation
Vexing Shusher: vs any decks packing counterspells
Magus of the Moon: vs any deck using a lot of duals

I would like to use the open slots for cards which would help me against decks which SB Engineered Plague and Perish. It seems to me that these cards could destroy this deck and therefore I need some answers for these decks. I was wondering if Lifeforce would be a good card for this? It can be a game winner against any suicide black archetype…

The deck’s main idea is to be able to win in 3 different ways like all other builds in this thread;)
1: NO into Progenitus or Terastodon and hit for the win.
2: SotF into infinite mana combo or enough CA + hit with large creatures.
3: Go for Aggro Elves with 8 lords and 2 Mirror Entity’s.

I haven’t been testing the 3 color build a lot but I’ll post more as soon as I’ve tested more…

[Koby]

Aadzor: Just a nitpick, but Terastadon cannot destroy Humility. You would need Krosan Grip/Naturalize for that.

Your list looks solid, but I wonder if you might have problems with all those duals against Wasteland. Since you're playing GRW, have you considered Skyshroud Elf to help your fixing? While you still need the Taiga to enable Anger, it seems that filtering for white mana with that elf is useful. At worst, he's a superior Quirion Elf.

@ Mirror Entity - It's good at what it does, but do you really need 2? Can you get away with just 1? Same with regards to Elvish Champion. What does the 2nd Champion provide that the first doesn't? Can this be a 3rd Imperious Perfect instead?

Also, have you considered any cards to help vs Storm combo? I have found that Thorn of Amethyst is very helpful in multiple matchups. The deck is geared towards really utilizing Thorns very well with the abundance of creatures.

[Aadz0r]

Regarding Terastodon vs Humility, didn't know that:p even so, it's a great card.
I have actually tried running only 1 Mirror Entity, but I've found that he always gets discarded, countered or destroyed. Therefore I prefer running 2. Regarding Elvish Champion, same story, only I really don't mind if I get 2 of them, since they still give the +1/+1, and they'll give each other forestwalk.

Skyshroud Elf is a great find. I didn't know the card. I think i'll add 1 mountain instead of a taiga and add two skyshroud elves instead of 1x llanowar elves and 1x quirion ranger. However, I don't really agree it's superior to quirion ranger. Don't forget about the untap ability.

Thorn of amethyst is great. Usually I would add them to the sideboard, but no player in my usual group plays combo. I have never been very good at making a good sideboard, so if anyone has any tips, please be welcome to share your thoughts;)

[lebarion]

@Ricardo: I don't like the inclusion of Mutavaults in Elf Survival. I think that if I wanted to add utility a land, it would be Wasteland. But I believe that by adding utility lands we need to raise our land count, thus lowering our elves count, thus making the tribal synergy weaker.
Elvish Lyrist and Elvish Scrapper are weak, and while I agree that having artifact/enchantment removal maindeck is good, using 4 slots for bad cards is too much. I use 1 Viridian Zealot (more versatile) and 1 Viridian Shaman (card-advantage, reusable with Symbiote), and I'm not sure I wouldn't be better with only one of them.
Sylvan messenger is much better than Harmonize. You can search it with survival and it attacks with trample.
Talara's Battalion does nothing for the tribe, is an awful topdeck, and dies to lightning bolt. I don't like him, I believe he belongs to aggro elves.

@Aadz0r: I like Mirror Entity a lot. I've tested it many times and only dismissed it because I like to have a rock-solid manabase. I think you could probably remove Caller to add a third Wirewood Symbiote, that is very good on its own, as Natural Order -> Progenitus is a good answer to mass removal (just play carefully, keeping alow-cost elf in hand to feed NO).
How you're feeling about the low elf count? Do you find yourself wanting more?
What about Natural Order? I've tested it a lot, and ended up finding that he doesn't helps me that much in my bad matches. For instance, Aggro Loam can wish for Edict or Perish, and Zoo can just attack through Progenitus and burn me to finalize the job. Do you have different experiences?

Thanks!

[Aadz0r]

@lebarion: I believe the white splash is great... It helps nearly every match up except for storm combo. I can see why you would want to have a 'rock-solid' mana base, but i actually think that splashing white does not really give you a fragile mana base. Sure, it is more likely to be mana screwed, but using cards as Quirion Ranger and Skyshroud Elf helps solve this problem... The red mana is used anyhow and therefore is not the issue here.

I will remove Caller of the Claw MB. it has been sitting dead in my hand too many times now... i will indeed likely replace this for a third Wirewood Symbiote, although I am actually thinking about including one Harmonic Sliver to the deck. i know it's not an Elf, but Viridian Shaman is just too limited giving you only removal vs artifact and i believe it is better than Viridian Zealot, since you'll have to sacrifice the Zealot to make it work and the sliver can still form a recurring combo with Mirror Entity and Wirewood Symbiote.

The Elf count hasn't been a problem, since 25 Elves should still be enough, and with Squee, I'll always have something to pitch for SotF. I have found that I can still go the aggro route, so no problem there...

Natural Order -> Progenitus is the one thing I would never remove from this deck... Running 4 is not a problem, since you'll never mind having 2, as the first one will nearly always get countered or discarded... Progenitus wins the game against quite a lot of decks. Against any bant deck, usually as soon as i get Progenitus on the battlefield they scoop. Against mono red Goblins of mono blue Merfolk, a Progenitus will usually win the game and against zoo in theory it should win you the game... Unfortunately I haven't been able to test against zoo often enough:( Also Edict shouldn't really be a problem, because against decks where you know they run the card, you should always make sure you have a small creature next to Progenitus... Perish however is still a big problem. I am still trying to find cards to sideboard against decks which run the card. So far I could only really find Lifeforce and Caller of the Claw. CotC is added to the sideboard, but Lifeforce is in my opinion just not good enough... So, if anyone has a good suggestion I would love to hear it;;

I ran a very small tourney with the list I posted before and went 3-1.

I won 2-0 against Ugwr Countertop
G1: He had the countertop combo but no hand and I topdecked a NO, which was about the only card he wasn't able to counter. After finding Progenitus he scooped...
G2: He went top, I got a Llanowar Elves, T2 he did nothing, I played Archdruid. T3 he got Counterbalance and had one fetchland open. I played NO, he fetched, In responce Pyroblasted his counterbalance. He placed SDT on top of his library, countered the pyroblast, but revealed a Firespout. Again Progenitus hit for the win.

then, 2-0 against a weird discard deck with The Rack:
G1: Turn 3 Progenitus hit for the win...
G2: He had an Ensnaring Bridge, but I had 2 NO. First one got Terastodon hitting his bridge and one of my lands, then I NO the token into Progenitus and he couldn't draw another Bridge and scooped...

Third match I lost 0-2 against Eva Green.
G1: had to mull to 5 and after a while I had forestwalk with a couple of elves out. He had a Tombstalker and on my turn I could hit him to one, when I was at 4. I had haste so I could win be drawing any card except for a land, and drew a Forest:(
G2: I knew he had a couple of Perishes and Engineered Plague SB... I got a couple of lords out while he had an engineered plague. However, he discarded all my krosan grips and hit my lords with snuff outs while I kept drawing Llanowar Elves...

Last Match I won 2-0 against UGb Landstill.
G1: Mirror Entity won me the game when I had a few 8/8 llanowar Elves who hit him.
G2: Infinite combo with Mirror Entity, Wirewood Symbiote and a Priest and two attacking creatures when he could block only one won the game.

[Aadz0r]

Btw, what do you think about adding one Dryad Arbor? It's fetchable as a target for NO and whenever you draw him, he can be used as a blocker or food for SotF...

[Koby]

And it also gets affected by summoning sickness. It's also not an Elf. I would only consider it if you're playing with 4 Natural Order.

[dsg123456789]

I have been running an elf survival list for the past month or so and getting decent results at my local 8 man weekly event, which is a predictable meta of a good zoo deck, a TES deck, a bg gamekeeper deck, and a handful of black decks and then random stuff (mono green berserk stompy, ur scepter control, etc). I've been doing well, losing only to ant and zoo, and doing 50/50at that. Here's my list:

//lands
4 windswept heath
4 wooded foothills
2 taiga
3 Savannah
4 forest

//mana dorks
4 llanowar elves
4 fyndhorn elves
4 priest of Titania
2 quirion ranger

//beats
4 elvish champion
4 imperious perfect
4 wren's run vanquisher
2 mirror entity

//Engine
4 sylvan messenger
4 survival of the fittest

//utility
1 wood elves
3 wirewood symbiote
1 anger
1 squee
1 gaddock teeg

//sideboard
4 krosan grip
4 silence
3 absolute law
4 misc.

I really like having the infinite combo, as all of the combo pieces are very useful on their own, and I feel like the white splash also really improves the combo matchup with silences. Also, 4 maindeck wrens run vanquishers is really good against zoo.

[(nameless one)]

ruckus, when you used to run the glimpse combo in junction to being survival, what where your best, bad and worst matchups?

thanks.

[Aadz0r]

@dsg123456789: Looks like a pretty solid Survival list... But isn't 4x Elvish Champion a little much? Especially when playing SotF. Isn't Elvish Archdruid a better card to include since he accelerates your early game? Also, isn't Orim's Chant better than Silence?

[(nameless one)]

@dsg123456789: Looks like a pretty solid Survival list... But isn't 4x Elvish Champion a little much? Especially when playing SotF. Isn't Elvish Archdruid a better card to include since he accelerates your early game? Also, isn't Orim's Chant better than Silence?

I agree with Archdruid vs Champion. One Champion should be enough as you only need it to forestwalk when you need to.

Yes, Chant is better than Silence but you also have to factor the $18 difference between those cards. Maybe its just a budget option? After all, its only sideboard and theyre probably will do the same thing on the matchup you bring it against.

[Justin]

I still don't understand why people run Wren's Run Vanquisher. It does not fit with the theme of the deck. Survivial elves relies on mana acceleration, card draw/advanatage, and bombs/fatties. Vanquisher doesn't give you any of that. Sure, it trades with goyf, but so what? This deck wants to win fast and isn't concerned about goyf in combat. I would recommend more Quirion Ranger, Fauna Shaman, or lords. Vanquisher is so sub-optimal for this deck.

[lebarion]

I still don't understand why people run Wren's Run Vanquisher. It does not fit with the theme of the deck. Survivial elves relies on mana acceleration, card draw/advanatage, and bombs/fatties. Vanquisher doesn't give you any of that. Sure, it trades with goyf, but so what? This deck wants to win fast and isn't concerned about goyf in combat. I would recommend more Quirion Ranger, Fauna Shaman, or lords. Vanquisher is so sub-optimal for this deck.

I've been running 2 Vanquishers that I'm probably going to replace by Fauna Shamans, but Vanquishers are important from time to time.
I usually want to drop mana elves for the first 2 or 3 turns, and I'm usually "at full speed" turn 4. The problem is that untill then, I don't want to block with my elves, so Nacatl, Silvergill Adept, and other early beaters are putting me closer to the red zone. Vanquisher sometimes is able to keep your life total reasonably high untill you get at full speed.

That said, IF I wanted to run 4 "deathtouchers" , I'd probably exchange one Vanquisher for a Thornweald Archer

[Justin]

I've been running 2 Vanquishers that I'm probably going to replace by Fauna Shamans, but Vanquishers are important from time to time.
I usually want to drop mana elves for the first 2 or 3 turns, and I'm usually "at full speed" turn 4. The problem is that untill then, I don't want to block with my elves, so Nacatl, Silvegill Adept, and other early beaters are putting me closer to the red zone. Vanquisher sometimes is able to keep your life total reasonably high untill you get at full speed.

That said, IF I wanted to run 4 "deathtouchers" , I'd probably exchange one Vanquisher for a Thornweald Archer

Again, the problem with running deathtouchers is that they don't fit with the plan of the deck. You want to ramp up and win with powerful spells. This deck isn't too concerned with taking early damage. You just want your mana elves to stick on the board long enough to cast big spells and help you win the game. By playing spells that do not help you do that, you are hurting the consistency of your deck. Also, the deck already has lots of good two drops (Priest, Survival, Shaman). You can also find youself casting multiple one-drops on turn two. Also, if you are able to stick a turn one mana elf, you will be casting a three drop on turn two. I don't think these deathtouchers are necessary to fill out the curve on this deck. Your plan should be to ramp up quickly and have a huge turn on turn 3 or 4 to put you into a position to get your opponent to lethal. Running deathtouchers only slows you down.

[Koby]

ruckus, when you used to run the glimpse combo in junction to being survival, what where your best, bad and worst matchups?

thanks.

To be honest, I still run Glimpse combo. I'm heavily looking at non combo options but can't commit to just Survival as an engine. My bad matchups with both decks are:

Good matchups:
Decks without disruption (Affinity, Lands, etc)

Bad/Even matchups:
Zoo (burn heavy)
Deedstill
Combo - its a race to who goes off first. Thorns help if you actually draw them.
Burn

Worst matchups:
CB/Top with either E. Tutor or Firespout
Aggro Loam (DD, Firespout, Seismic Assault, Chalice of the Void, Perish, E.Plague - ouch!)

Decks with tons of removal and/or a faster clock are tough matchups.

Currently I'm going to test out Eldrazi Monument to side-step all the removal. It's also a win-con and a flying lord. It might be worth playing even if it's untutorable just because of how crucial is it against mass sweepers.

[dsg123456789]

I think that the wrens run vanquishers can be credited with my improved combo and zoo matchups. Being able to trade or block profitably with zoo is really powerful. Similarly, having a blocker bigger than many goblins or other tribes slows them mown as well. Most importantly is the speed of the vanquisher's clock: he stresses combo and helps you seal the game faster.

Silence over chant is a budget decision, since i only bring them in vs. Storm.

I agree that 4 champions is suboptimal, but I'm not sure that a 3 mana creature is the beat replacement. In my meta, many players attack my manacritters and lands, and sometimes they can stall me on two mana. I was thinking of a split of 1 champion, 1-2 archdruid, and 1-2 other would be good.

The important thing to consider with all the non-combo oriented pieces of the deck is that you need them to work when you don't untap with survival, since you should win every game that you do.

[lebarion]

I believe Wren's Run Vanquisher in dsg1to9's build plays a role similar to Swords to Plowshares in Aadz0r's build. Note I'm not saying they have *equal* roles or power level, I see both have their advantages and drawbacks (i.e Vanquisher is an Elf, can attack, Plowshares is SO better removal). Although I'm not using neither right now, I see both as valid options.

@dsg: As far as I remember, the only good elves with CMC2 are Priest of Titania, Wren's Run Vanquisher and Fauna Shaman. I see why you want to have cheaper elves, but I think Elvish Archdruid is too important and I wouldn't use less than 3 unless I'm playing Glimpse combo.
I think 1 Elvish Champion may be enough as he's probably the weaker lord (except against counterbalance, where Joraga Warcaller is worse), even though I have use 4 in my list for a long time.

@rukcus: I think Eldrazi Monument is a very interesting option against (mass) removal. Please let me know your opinion about it after testing.

I have a probably big (near 80 people) tournament next week and I'm going to play this deck, so expect a report. Hope my Fauna Shamans are delivered in time :).

[Aadz0r]

@lebarion, are you still using the same list as you posted last page? My personal experience with Fauna Shaman is not so good. I've tested her in many builds but I never really needed her. However, if your experience with her is different I would like to hear it...

I have come to the conclusion that even though I said that my list was doing great, it wasn't consistent enough... I've made some changes and am now playing with just a couple more elves. I'm still running both SotF and NO though... I've also added 1x Gaddock Teeg and 1x Ethersworn Canonist to the sideboard. I'm probably going to the Pro Tour Amsterdam legacy side event on saturday, and i'm planning on playing the following list:

Land(17)
5x Forest
1x Mountain
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath
2x Taiga
2x Savannah

Creatures(31)
2x Llanowar Elves
4x Fyndhorn Elves
2x Quirion Ranger
2x Wirewood Symbiote
3x Priest of Titania
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Wood Elves
1x Joraga Warcaller
1x Imperious Perfect
4x Elvish Archdruid
2x Elvish Champion
2x Mirror Entity
2x Sylvan Messenger
1x Anger
1x Terastodon
1x Progenitus

Other Spells(12)
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Natural Order

Sideboard(15)
3x Krosan Grip
3x Absolute Law
3x Pyroblast
2x Orim's Chant
2x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Ethersworn Canonist

i know I have a lot of sideboard cards vs combo, but it is probably my toughest match-ups. Also don't have a lot of SB cards vs mass removal but the trick there is to just play around it. I do have Absolute Law vs Firespout and Gaddock Teeg vs cards like WOG or Damnation. Eldrazi Monument however does not really seem like a great card vs mass removal. Most decks packing mass removal also pack cards like destroy target permanent which could easily get rid of the artifact. If any of you has any more suggestions i would love to hear it prior to the tourney...

If anyone has any suggestions I would love to hear them before the tourney...

[dsg123456789]

I just came in first at my weekly 8 man. I really found the wren's run vanquishers to be critical against decks that were otherwise quite tough, specifically against UBR burning wish/ad nauseum/IGG storm deck with main deck chants and against BG Goyf sinkhole wasteland thoughtsieze deck with main deck deeds and sideboard perish. Against both of them an early vanquisher put a clock on them for a tiny mana investment, which allowed me to work on establishing silence and teeg against storm and helped me fit through the mana denial of the BG deck. I frequently pitch vanquishers to survival because usually some other creature is better if you can combo, but if for whatever reason you're disrupted, vanquishers allow you to deal with opposing goyfs and also are a fantastic clock and beater.

[Koby]

I find Nettle Sentinels to be very useful in an switchover to Aggro. He's also a decent enough clock in the early game that must be answered.

Against other aggro decks, he's no better than a grizzly bear.
Against other aggro decks, you want Symbiote to give you time to setup with the C.A. Elves (visionary, wood elves, v.shaman). If your opponent targets your elves at this point, you're winning.

Is 1 Deranged Hermit enough of a mid game card to warrant a consideration?
What about ambush commander?

Neither of these cards helps against mass sweep. Both cost 5 but provide an army.
The former makes many blockers and can be abused with Symbiote. Gaea's Cradle seems obvious here.

[(nameless one)]

I frequently pitch vanquishers to survival because usually some other creature is better if you can combo, but if for whatever reason you're disrupted, vanquishers allow you to deal with opposing goyfs and also are a fantastic clock and beater.

I think dsg makes a good point when it comes with Vanquishers. However, I think that is still build-dependent.




Is 1 Deranged Hermit enough of a mid game card to warrant a consideration?
What about ambush commander?

Neither of these cards helps against mass sweep. Both cost 5 but provide an army.
The former makes many blockers and can be abused with Symbiote. Gaea's Cradle seems obvious here.

I never really like Ambush Commander because you want to make sure that you always have an open mana for it (so you don't get Armageddoned when someone plays a board sweeper). Yes, Ambush Commander also comes with an army but its an army of Llanowar Elves that you will need to hold back to rebuild your board. Deranged Hermit also comes with 2/2 bodies that you won't hesitate to use as a blocker when needed.

[lebarion]

@rukcus: the only reason I don't use Nettle Sentinel in my build is to avoid Chalice @ 1 and Countertop. He's very good for the aggro plan, being cheap and having "pseudo-vigilance".
Deranged Hermit is good on its own, and can be very good with Symbiote. I've tested him a little bit and he saved my ass against Zoo a couple times. But he's too expensive for my taste. It's a matter of playstyle, I think.
I don't think Ambush Commander is good mainly because we don't use a high number of lands, and many times my forests are in my hand because of Quirion Ranger.

@Aadz0r: my current list is more similar to the one I've used last champ (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18637-Forestwalking-to-Top-2-in-Taverna-Dracon&p=483606#post483606) I've played. I'm testing some tweaks:
-3 Forest, +2 Windswept Heath, +1 Gaea's Cradle: not many stifles here, I think Cradle may be good some times. As I use a high number of lands for this archetype, I don't think a one-lander with it is going to be a big problem.
-1 Joraga Warcaller, +1 Gempalm Strider: Strider can be a nice surprise element against Firespout and similar effects. Not sure it is better than Warcaller overall, though.
-2 Wren's Run Vanquisher, -1 Viridian Shaman, +4 Fauna Shaman: I believe Fauna Shaman improves our overall consistency making every creature you draw the creature you need each turn, and helps getting sideboard cards (Magus of the Moon, Faerie Macabre, etc.). The opponent commonly spend a removal or counterspell on it, what is also good as we have other more powerful elves. However, I may miss Vanquisher in some matches. Oh, and I don't know if I take the Viridian Zealot for the 4th Fauna Shaman, or play with 61 cards.

[dsg123456789]

It's key to remember that the vanquishers can carry a game on their own. Usually i'm not using their death touch, but their 3/3 for 2. Our deck is very vulnerable to mana disruption, and vanquisher helps with that, because it can get in for 6-9 damage before they can handle it if they're trying to rip apart your manabase.

I've found viridian zealot to be a useless card. I usually play a tee or viridian shaman in it's place, depending on the meta.

[Aadz0r]

@lebarion, in my opinion Terastodon is way way better then Viridian Zealot, even though he is not an elf. He will win you games, and in my eyes, running 1 elf less won't really be a problem...

Also, I'm probably going to run 1 Deranged Hermit instead of 1 Joraga Warcaller...

[lebarion]

I've found viridian zealot to be a useless card. I usually play a tee or viridian shaman in it's place, depending on the meta.

What's a tee? :-/
As much as Zealot has never been very useful for me, I still fell bad without disenchant effects in my deck. Maybe Viridian Shaman is better, though.


@lebarion, in my opinion Terastodon is way way better then Viridian Zealot, even though he is not an elf. He will win you games, and in my eyes, running 1 elf less won't really be a problem...

I'm sure it's better for builds with Natural Order, but in my build I don't think so. I never tested it, however.

[Aadz0r]

I'm sure it's better for builds with Natural Order, but in my build I don't think so. I never tested it, however.
Don't forget he only costs 8 land. You'll easily be able to tutor for him with SotF or Fauna Shaman and he gets rid of about anything including your own land to hit your opponent for 18 if combined with Anger... If I were you I would at least test him in your list;)

[lebarion]

I did 3-2-1 in a 50-people championship yesterday with the list described in post #743. I'm pretty happy with the results.
I've won against Merfolk, Stax and Zoo.
I've lost to Goblins (he draw the nuts) and GW Survival (Iona turn 3 in one game, too many big beaters in another).
I've ID with countertop Progenitus because he's a friend of mine, we played for fun and I'd won 2-0.

I'm satisfied with the Fauna Shamans, although I've missed the Vanquishers against Golbins. The Shamans where great against Stax, and solid in other matches.
I'd like to put Squee back to main, but don't know what to take out. Maybe the Lord configuration will change, too.
Overall I still think the deck is very good, with many outs to different decks, except combos. Mass removal is bad news, too, but it is possible to work around it.

[Koby]

Survival Elves as of 8/14/10, by Leandro Esteves Bario(lebarion)
-- Lands
6 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Taiga
1 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath

-- Elves
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Gempalm Strider
4 Priest of Titania
4 Fauna Shaman
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
1 Elvish Champion
1 Wilt-leaf Liege
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Masked Admirers
1 Wren's Run Packmaster

-- Survival
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Anger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

-- Sideboard
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Spore Frog
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
1 Nullmage Shepherd
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Goblin Pyromancer


Is this the list you played? (took the list from your report and updated via the changes you mentioned in post #743). Has the sideboard worked out for you? How has Nullmage Shepherd worked out for you vs Counterbalance and Stax?

[lebarion]

Is this the list you played? (took the list from your report and updated via the changes you mentioned in post #743). Has the sideboard worked out for you? How has Nullmage Shepherd worked out for you vs Counterbalance and Stax?

Yes, that's the list, except I couldn't find a Gempalm Strider in time and played with 2 Joraga Warcaller, and used Viridian Zealot in the place of Shaman.
I like Nullmage Shepherd against Countertop and Stax, but she was not very useful yesterday. Against countertop she was not needed as my opponent didn't have the chance to setup the combo. In fact, I find Countertop to be quite positive because of the variety of casting costs. I'm 4-1 in matches against it in tournaments.
In the match against Stax yesterday, I saw 2 Krosan Grips besides Zealot and the Shepherd. So although I used it to blow a Crucible, it was overkill. This match is a little bit tricky, but still positive. I try first to put some (usually 3) Priests of Titania/Archdruids in play to avoid tabernacle effects and Ghostly Prisons, then I try to kill him asap before he find Wrath of God. As I've said, I found Fauna Shaman to be very useful here to get the Priests of Titania. I'm 2-2 against them in tournaments, but I think I lost due to unlucky only.