Non-Survival Ooze [Archive]

jamis

10-09-2010, 02:31 PM

This is a Black/Blue combo deck built around abusing the interaction between Necrotic Ooze, Phyrexian Devourer, and Triskelion. It does this by casting Buried Alive and then Reanimating the Ooze.

How it works:
Once you have Necrotic Ooze in play and the other two cards in your graveyard, you are ready to combo off. Simply activate Phyrexian Devourer’s ability until you exile a card with CMC 1 or 2. This will put 1 or 2 counters on Nectrotic Ooze, which you can then remove via Triskelion’s ability to deal damage to your opponent. If you reveal a card with CMC 3 or larger, you respond to that activation until you reveal a card that won’t make Necroitic Ooze’s power above 6.

The core of the deck

The combo:
Necrotic Ooze, Phyrexian Devourer, and Triskelion: The combo pieces. Run as a one-of each since you’re generally not trying to draw these cards, but instead rely on Buried Alive to tutor for them.

Aquamoeba: Run as a 1-of as a discard outlet incase a combo piece winds up in your hand. If this happens, simply include it in place of the combo piece, reanimate the Necrotic Ooze and discard the combo piece using the ability. Run over Putrid Imp since it pitches to FoW and you will hardly ever hardcast it. Run over Cephalid Inkshrouder on the rare chance you do need to hardcast it.

Buried Alive: Grabs the combo pieces. Run as a four-of.

Reanimate and Exhume: Used to get Necrotic Ooze into play. The consensus seems to be to run 6 or 7 of these cards favoring the split towards Reanimate. Going to 8 reanimation spells is possible, though probably not necessary. Going to 5 is likely too dangerous.

The Setup:
Personal Tutor: This card really pulls the deck together by finding a missing combo piece or some protection. I recommend it as a four-of, though some lists have run less.

Lim-Dul’s Vault: The other tutor of the deck. Builds running a transformational sideboard will likely want to play four, but it can be lowered to a two-of depending on your build and preference.

Brainstorm: Another four-of for the deck. Extremely important in both finding needed cards and putting back dead cards.

Ponder: If you feel you need more cantrips, this is likely your best option.

Protection/Disruption:
Thoughtseize: Most builds run somewhere between two to four of these. Perfect for grabbing counter spells and general hate cards.

Force of Will and Spell Pierce: Pact of Negation can replace Spell Pierce if you don't plan on using a transformational sideboard into Show and Tell, though Spell Pierce over Pact does help the combo mirror.

Eye of Nowhere: Can be included as a 1-of Personal Tutor target maindeck to answer problem cards such as Humility or Pithing Needle.

Mana-base:
Dark ritual, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, and City of Traitors: The acceleration. Absolutely required to make the deck work in the meta. You should probably include somewhere around 11 of these.

Lands: Decks seem to be playing between 12 and 16 lands right now with 6 to 8 fetchlands. How many lands you play will likely depend on how much acceleration you play and which cards you use as acceleration.

The Sideboard
There seem to be two options when it comes to sideboarding. The first is to do a transformational sideboard into a Show and Tell package. The second is to just fight the hate head on with bounce spells, pithing needle, and other anti-hate cards.

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn: The main Show and Tell target. It should get there the majority of the time.

Progenitus: Run as a 1-of to be found with LDV. Used instead of Emrakul when facing Karakas, Jace TMS, or Oblivion Ring.

Blazing Archon: Shines in the Merfolk match-up. Also the best creature to put into play against opposing Show and Tell decks. Also stomps several other decks that don't play removal such as Elves.

Doomsday and Shelldock Isle: Can be included as a Personal Tutor target to be used against Counterbalance decks and other decks that don't play Wasteland or a fast clock.

Bounce: Echoing Truth, Wipe Away, Chain of Vapor, Hurkyl's Recall. 4-6 bounce are generally included. Which you chose depends on preference and meta, I prefer E.Truth, generally.

Sample decklist
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Aquamoeba

4 Buried Alive
4 Personal Tutor
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Reanimate
2 Exhume

4 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats

Sideboard:
1 Blazing Archon
1 Progenitus
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Show and Tell
1 Doomsday
1 Shelldock Isle
4 Echoing Truth

Match-ups

Zoo (very favorable): You should have no problem racing them game 1. Game 2, they might bring in Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of Sanctity or Ethersworn Canonist. None of those should be a huge problem, so you can likely still combo out with Necrotic Ooze, though my general boarding plan for this match-up is to side out FoW, Spell Pierce and Thoughtseize for the secondary combo, and win with whichever is drawn first; Buried Alive is preferable if you get a choice. Just don't play Doomsday against them, as they can burn you down easily.

Merfolk (about 50/50): This match-up will be tough, but very winnable with the right hand. If you can assemble the combo quickly with protection, you should win. Post-board, if not going transformational, the match-up will become unfavorable, especially if they splash black for Extirpate. If going transformational, a quick Emrakul or a resolved Blazing Archon should win the game. My boarding plan is to take out the Ooze combo and a Dark Ritual and bring in the entire board. Try not to use Doomsday unless you're forced to or you know they don't have Wasteland.

T.E.S (favorable): They can combo about a turn faster than you, but you have counter protection and are slightly less vulnerable to discard. Don't keep a hand that loses to a single Duress and you should be fine. There's nothing really to board in. You can bring in Echoing Truth if you want, but they probably won't play Empty the Warrens against you. Watch out for Orim's Chant.

Bant Countertop (unfavorable): You can't really win through CounterTop if they resolve both pieces. If you can keep it off the table and combo out with protection, you have a chance. Post-board, it should get about 50/50, perhaps slightly in their favor still. Progenitus is your best bet here, as they may have Jace and Karakas. Doomsday into Emrakul is also good, as they don't play Wasteland; just keep an eye on what answers they might have for Emrakul before dedicating to that plan. Other builds of CounterTop can be near-unwinnable, as they might play Humility, Wasteland and Oblivion Ring in addition to Karakas, Jace, and Counterbalance.

Goblins (favorable): Game 1 should be easy enough as long as you keep a hand that doesn't lose to Wasteland. You probably won't need to FoW a turn 1 Lackey, unless you kept a slow hand. S&T is unreliable game 2 as they may have Stingscourger and Warren Weirding. Mono-red and Red/green should still be about as easy as Game 1, but black splashes can give you trouble depending on what exactly they have in their sideboard.

Ichorid (about 50/50): A fast hand can win this one. Your disruption isn't useful past turn 1, but countering their discard outlet can be really good; generally, you just want a hand that can kill on or before turn 3. Cabal Therapy can hurt a lot. Post-board should get easier, as you can get rid of their zombie tokens or Ichorids with Echoing Truth. They might bring in Leyline of the Void or Pithing Needle, but both of those should be easy enough to handle. Strangely, the more they sideboard in, the easier the match will become, since they'll dilute their deck with answers to gravehate and be slowed down a lot. On the play, I might keep Thoughtseize and Spell pierce in, but otherwise, I'd side out protection for the other combo. Emrakul and Progenitus won't be too impressive, but Blazing Archon should win the game if you land it.

ivanpei

10-10-2010, 11:33 AM

I'm pretty sure there have been some pretty solid decklists posted on the necrotic ooze thread on the Format development section. For the buried alive + reanimate combo, I think the UB shell is the best way to go. I would run straight up combo. Of course, its not really a cheap deck to build, an initial decklist would look like this:

4 Force
4 Thoughtseize
3 Spell pierce

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Careful study
1 Lim Dul's Vault
4 Personal Tutor

4 Buried alive
4 Exhume
4 Reanimate

1 Necrotic ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian devourer

3 Chrome mox
4 Underground sea
4 Polluted delta
3 Flooded strand
2 Bloodstained mire
2 Island
2 Swamp

SB:

Some combination of bounce, duress effects, null rods.

Its a very compact combo with very little dead cards. Most card choices are pretty simple, the careful study is a tutor target if you get some combo components stuck in your hand, its a tutorable discard outlet with personal tutor. No dark rituals because I believe chrome mox gives you more mana over the long run and acts as an initial mana source. Hands with a single chrome + cantrips are very keepable.

jamis

10-10-2010, 01:39 PM

Hm, I'll give that list a test. What do you think about including Intuition? I considered the blue splash before, and Intuition was a main reason.

ivanpei

10-10-2010, 08:14 PM

Hmm, intuition is a little too slow. The combo is already very slow. Without chrome mox, you kill T4 earliest. If against blue, T5 earliest (you want to play around daze). This is due to buried alive being 3cc. If you have chrome, you can be a turn earlier. Even then, zoo/goblins/folk can get you pretty quick and race you. No daze because, the combo is very mana intensive, you need every land drop. The spell pierce slots are flexible, they could be some other kind of protection like duress. Pierce IMO is important at winning counterwars over your combo components.

Personal tutor is a much better tutor, its more or less mystical tutor (although its a sorcery) because it fetches both combo components (buried alive, exhume, reanimate), protection (duress), discard outlet (careful study) and after board, your bounce spell (eye to nowhere, some sorcery speed bounce).

Intuition sucks as a buried alive because:

They will always give you phyrexian devourer so you end up with ooze and trisk in the yard. Now you need a discard outlet + reanimate spell to win the game, which is terrible.

jamis

10-11-2010, 04:53 PM

I see what you mean about Intuition. I guess if I still included Tortured Existence, it would ease the drawback, but after testing the list you posted, I don't think it's necessary.

I didn't really like FoW after testing it. Too often I had it, but didn't have a blue card to pitch. I think I still prefer Dark Rit over Chrome Mox for the deck because it can allow for a turn 2 win with some consistency. After removing Force, I replaced Spell Pierce with Duress. Pierce is probably better protection, but Duress lets you cast Buried Alive Turn 3 instead of 4, which I feel is important in the Merfolk match-up.

Personal Tutor is great, and is why I stuck with the blue splash rather than the green. I don't like that it can't tutor for Necrotic Ooze, but that's really only important for games 2 and 3.

Here's what I'm currently testing:

1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

3 Oona's Prowler

3 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Eye of Nowhere

4 Dark Ritual
4 Reanimate
3 Exhume

4 Personal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Buried Alive

5 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flats
2 Scalding Tarn

The sideboard's still pretty rough, but I'm thinking something like:

1 Blazing Archon
3 Necrotic Ooze
1 Beseech the Queen
4 Echoing Truth
4 Wipe Away
2 Deathmark

Jander78

10-11-2010, 05:21 PM

I played this deck at Jupiter Game's Lotus tournament this past weekend. I think this deck could have done real well. The sideboard strategy I used looked good on paper and in theory, but in actuality I had a hard time assembling the sideboarded combo. I won every single game one with this deck (well..should have; see round 5) and ended up 4-3. The shear speed of this deck is incredible and hard to stop game 1.

Here's what I ran:

The Secret of the Ooze
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer

4 Buried Alive

4 Personal Tutor
3 Lim-Dul's Vault

4 Brainstorm
1 Careful Study

3 Exhume
4 Reanimate

3 Thoughtseize
4 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will

4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
3 City of Traitors
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Island
2 Swamp

Sideboard:
4 Hive Mind
4 Pact of the Titan
3 Show and Tell
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle

Here's a quick report of the tournament.

Round 1 Ryan McKenny (Merfolk)
Game 1: I win the die roll. Play Island Brainstorm and find the piece I need for the combo. He plays Mutavault -> Vial and says go. I drop Swamp -> Ritual Buried Alive -> Reanimate with Pact backup.
Game 2: Long game that involves me not being able to assemble Hive Mind for about 10 turns while he just beats me with fish.
Game 3: Another long game that took me one turn too long to assemble Hive Mind. He ended up with 3 Cursecatchers in play and a Daze in hand that left me one mana short of winning.
0-1 (1-2)

Round 2 Chris (Lands type of lock deck)
Game 1: I lose the die roll but win on turn two. Without having to worry about any hate, I can just go off.
Game 2: He starts with a Leyline in play, plays Land -> Tormod's Crypt. I get about 5-6 turns and assemble Hive Mind and win.
1-1 (3-2)

Round 3 Nick (Survival-Elves)
Game 1: I win on turn three (on the draw), but I do note that he gets going quite fast. I think he already did 8-12 to me on his turn 3.
Game 2: I open with a turn two Hive Mind win, but he has 3 mana elves, Tiaga, and Forest, so he can pay for the Pact of the Titan in my hand. I spend at least 10 turns drawing nothing useful.
Game 3: Similar to game 2, but I just can't really assemble Hive Mind to win.
1-2 (4-4)

Round 4 Adam Phillips (Eternal Garden)
Well, we know very well what each other is playing.
Game 1: I win turn two.
Game 2: We get to turn two and Adam just scoops and we go get food. There's really not much of a chance he can beat me.
2-2 (6-4)

Round 5 Joe (Burn)
Game 1: I actually lose this one because he drops turn one Mountain -> Relic of Progenitus. I DON'T counter, when I had FoW in my hand. I was just shocked by the maindecked Relic and totally messed that up. Had I countered it, I would have won turn 3 with no problems. After realizing how stupid a mistake I made, I just scooped on my turn 2 so he wouldn't know what I was playing.
Game 2: He plays another turn 1 Relic, but I have a fetchland and win on turn 2, since he didn't have the mana to activate the relic he can't really do anything besides make me remove a fetchland or ritual from my graveyard....close.
Game 3: He keeps a hand with a Relic, but I assemble Hive Mind in like 5-6 turns. Luckily he didn't have much burn and he was stuck on a couple of land (leaving one open to Relic).
3-2 (8-5)

Round 6 Coorey (Burn)
Game 1: I go off turn 1 on the draw.
Game 2: I get Hive Mind on turn 4, he gets me down to 4 life in response. Close, but I still pulled it off.
4-2 (10-5)

Round 7 Will (White Ghost) (Team America)
I was talking with Will most of the day, so we know what each other is playing.
Game 1: He wins the die roll and gets some disruption going. I manage to Thoughtseize and assemble the combo around turn 3-4 I think. I had to wait to make sure I could go off since I didn't have enough protection.
Game 2: He turn 2 and turn 3 Hymns me. Then Stifle / Wastes my lands. Didn't really matter because I never saw Hive Mind to be able to win.
Game 3: Similar to game 2. Takes me way too long to find Hive Mind pieces and he has a good grip on the game by then.
4-3 (11-7)

So you can see where Hive Mind was great in some cases, but that's mostly due to luck of having the pieces. With no way to actually tutor for Hive Mind or the Pacts, it really wasn't as reliable as it seemed in the limited testing I did with it. Most of the games, they didn't even see the GY hate by the time I would have been able to go off with the Buried Alive -> Reanimate combo. The only time the sideboarding strategy was really successful was Game two against Leyline (and in 5-6 turns I could easily have just found my own hate/answer). It straight up lost me the match round 3 where I should have sided back out game 3 to the Ooze combo, but didn't.

I could have easily just played Pithing Needle or Sideboarded in Bounce / Splash for Krosan Grip, that would leave the only vulnerability being Extirpate, but there's not much besides Chalice / Counterbalance / Orim's Chant that can stop that.

Here's what I'll be running in the SB from now on:

1 Eye of Nowhere
2 Echoing Truth
2 Show and Tell
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
4 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives

Not sure about Eye of Nowhere. It may just be better as Wipe Away since I'll probably be siding out Personal Tutors. It's really hard to sideboard since you can't cut too many cards without removing combo pieces.

ivanpei

10-11-2010, 08:24 PM

Jander78

10-11-2010, 09:42 PM

Agree on hive mind not being a good alternate combo. Eye to nowhere is a sorcery and we don't play LDV. However if the list plays LDV, Wipeaway is better. Howed you like the city + dark ritual+ lotus petal as acceleration? Did you ever wish you had more initial coloured sources to cast your cantrips? No ponder? Did you miss the extra cantrips? Personal tutor is a bitch to find. I finally tracked down 2 so I think I'll be testing 4LDV, 2 personal tutor lists. But Ideally should be 4 personal tutor, 2 LDV. Though Ldv is much better after board because it looks for bounce/grip.

I like the swap to show and tell after board. What about more show and tells + emrakul? That may be pretty useful. If going transformational, 4 LDV is a must to fetch both components.

Also regarding pacts, most people are still new to the combo so they counter the reanimate. But once they start countering the buried alive (like entomb in reanimator), pact is going to be subpar. Thoughts? I'd stick to the spell pierces.
City / Ritual / Petal plan is what makes this deck actually work. The speed of winning consistantly by turn three is what makes this playable over standard Reanimator or TES as combo decks. It also allows for plenty of turn 1 wins as well.

I'm not sold on Emrakul since he can't go double duty and be reanimated to go along with Show and Tell. I would mainly bring in anti-hate + whatever creature may hose the opponent the most as a back up plan. Show and Tell would only be brought in against tons of graveyard hate that you can't deal with (adding more would be fine if the environment called for it).

Like I said, I'm still unsure about Eye of Nowhere. I do like having the option of using Personal Tutor to find it along with Lim-Dul's, since you will need to have it ready when you go off and still need to find your combo pieces to win. Wipe away is obviously the better spell, but not easier to tutor for. It may be a good plan to go 1 Eye, 2 Wipe Away.

I don't miss the cantrips at all. Brainstorm is required to dump drawn creatures back into your deck. Running more tutors in lieu of cantrips ensure you'll find what you need instead of trying to set-up over multiple turns.

Pact is great. In multiples it's unstoppable. In a counter war it can be extremely risky. Spell Pierce is a great option and one brought up to me by others giving suggestions on the deck (Mister Agent). The only reason I don't like it (maindeck at least) is that it will slow you down a turn so you can ensure you have the available mana to protect your spell. Also Daze was another option brought up since you really need to have Buried Alive resolve and don't always have extra mana to reserve for Spell Pierce (this is why I originally went with Pact). Proactive counters (Duress) are also good options in the 1 mana slot.

Running Pact is a different playstyle. I almost always make sure I can cast both Buried Alive + Reanimate / Exhume in the same turn. This strategy makes Pact very strong against opposing counters as long as you're sure you'll win the counterwar. I'm happy with it now, but it may not be the best option as this deck progresses.

ivanpei

10-11-2010, 09:51 PM

With so much acceleration, pact seems like a good choice along side your cities, petals and dark rituals, allowing you to go for the 'combo turn' where you cast everything on that one turn. Thanks for the clarification. I now see your reasoning behind the card choices. Cheers on the tuned list. ;)

jazzykat

10-12-2010, 04:31 AM

titus

10-12-2010, 07:37 AM

This deck looks a blast to play - just wondering if for reasons of thrift or flexibility Peer Through Depths had been considered at all? First time poster who doesn't know how to do card links so...

Peer Through Depths: 1U: Instant: Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal an instant or sorcery card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.

Considering you don't really need to put any of the combo creatures in hand until you go off, seems like it could be good - can be played at instant speed and would allow you to run better bounce than Eye of Nowhere.

Anyway, look forward to seeing how this deck pans out..

Jander78

10-12-2010, 09:43 AM

Do you feel that this deck is robust enough if people start to prepare for it or do you feel it is like Dream Halls which was great when no-one was looking but ran into some problems once it was a known and prepared for deck?
I do feel it's robust enough, but it's definitely not popular enough to bother testing against or preparing for yet. Since it's graveyard based and slightly vulnerable, it may end up like Dream Halls, but I'd like to think that there are more options / backup plans (I.e. Reanimator / Show and Tell) to keep it alive.

This deck looks a blast to play - just wondering if for reasons of thrift or flexibility Peer Through Depths had been considered at all? First time poster who doesn't know how to do card links so...

Peer Through Depths: 1U: Instant: Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal an instant or sorcery card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.

Considering you don't really need to put any of the combo creatures in hand until you go off, seems like it could be good - can be played at instant speed and would allow you to run better bounce than Eye of Nowhere.

Anyway, look forward to seeing how this deck pans out..
Peer Through Depths is ok. I wouldn't replace either of the tutors I'm running with it. If you can't find Personal Tutors, it may be a decent budget replacement, but in reality it's not always going to deliver when you need to find one of your combo pieces or protection. It does put the card in your hand, which is it's best advantage over Tutor / Vault, but the inconsistency compared to the others can't really be relied on.

Also to link cards you would type this: Peer Through Depths :)

Philipp2293

10-12-2010, 10:32 AM

MD seems fine, the problem I see after SBing you run too little creatures to have a solid backup plan with Show and Tell, maybe that part needs some reworking.

Jander78

10-12-2010, 10:40 AM

MD seems fine, the problem I see after SBing you run too little creatures to have a solid backup plan with Show and Tell, maybe that part needs some reworking.
Could very well be. The Sideboard is what I'm working on now and it could very well change. Show and Tell is only a backup plan if you can't take care of their hate. You should still try to win through Buried Alive -> Animate, but should you run into Extirpate / Faerie Macabre you can tutor up Show and Tell as a fall back. I don't know if switching the entire strategy post-SB to Show and Tell is correct or not at this point without further testing.

jamis

10-12-2010, 03:19 PM

I'm going to start testing Jander's manabase. I was wondering though, is there a reason you run City of Traitors over Ancient Tomb?

ivanpei

10-12-2010, 08:56 PM

You only need the colourless for buried alive, and you usually only cast that when you are going to go off. The pain is also relevant in conjunction with LDV, thoughtseize and reanimate.

Mister Agent

10-13-2010, 08:50 PM

Congrats on the finish Jander. I find it rather impressive that you were able to go into a incredibly high competitive field like the one at Jupiter and almost make top 16 with a deck that you have only been testing for about a week and a half. I think this shows that this deck has a ton of potential to be a relevant contender in legacy.

I have only tested Jander's list against New horizons and I manage to win a handful of games thanks to resolving the combo with both discard and countermagic.

As for the sideboard, I am still considering running a inkwell leviathan because it's very good against blue based decks and it makes show and tell all the more worth it to board in. Running a handful of creatures in the board seems fine as you have brainstorm, careful study and LDV to get one in your hand. You also can still dump creatures in the grave that you boarded in with buried alive and bring them back as well with reanimate spells. It's good that this deck has more then one option to put a big threat into play.

Philipp2293

10-21-2010, 04:12 AM

Just read a tournament report on a german forum from a guy who played against this deck, and post SB his opponent brought in DD+Emrakul+Shelldock, could this be a viable SB plan?

Any other updates/testing on this deck so far?

Pastorofmuppets

10-21-2010, 04:57 AM

wouldn't Kiki-Jiki/Death Cultist be better to run?

jedi_gof

10-21-2010, 05:32 AM

the other combo wins if ooze resolves. With kiki-cultistcombo a stifle stops the fun (as it is a tap ability) where devourer is a (0) ability. Therefor you can respond to anything but trickbind more or less woth that combo.

jamis

10-21-2010, 06:59 PM

Plus, Ooze doesn't have Haste, which is a huge downside when going the tapped ability route. Trickbind isn't that bad, though, since you just win on their upkeep instead.

Anyway, I'm planning on bringing this to a small event on Sunday. I'll post how it does then.

death

10-23-2010, 03:13 PM

Here's what I'll be running in the SB from now on:

1 Eye of Nowhere
2 Echoing Truth
2 Show and Tell
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
4 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives

How about Chains for grave hate and/or splashing green for Nature's Claim, as a catch all answer.

edit:\
It looks like your maindeck have been tuned well. Although the manabase might need some work ;) Here's what I am testing:
2 Crystal Vein
7 Fetchlands
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp

I substituted Crystal Vein for Traitors because opening hands with a single fetch+Brainstorm is often screwed by drawing a City of Traitors. Crystal Vein doesn’t blow up when you drop lands. You can reuse it until you really need :2:. I cut it to 2 since drawing a second colorless land sucks.

Added a 7th fetch to help brainstorm filter, changed a Swamp to Sea. I find that a blue source is important for cantrips and tutor spells early in the game. Hope this helps.

Jander78

10-25-2010, 11:27 AM

How about Chains for grave hate and/or splashing green for Nature's Claim, as a catch all answer.
Chain of Vapor is a fine substitute for bounce. I chose Echoing Truth to handle multiple copies of cards (i.e. Leyline / Pithing Needle) and Eye of Nowhere because it can be tutored via Personal Tutor.

Right now, the manabase is way too fragile to handle splashing a third color. If you reworked both the MD and mana base you could possibly fit an additional color, but I wouldn't risk the stability of a 2 color manabase for the flexibility of an additional color.

edit:\
It looks like your maindeck have been tuned well. Although the manabase might need some work ;) Here's what I am testing:
2 Crystal Vein
7 Fetchlands
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp

I substituted Crystal Vein for Traitors because opening hands with a single fetch+Brainstorm is often screwed by drawing a City of Traitors. Crystal Vein doesn’t blow up when you drop lands. You can reuse it until you really need :2:. I cut it to 2 since drawing a second colorless land sucks.

Added a 7th fetch to help brainstorm filter, changed a Swamp to Sea. I find that a blue source is important for cantrips and tutor spells early in the game. Hope this helps.
The only advantage I see for Crystal Vein is to resolve Brainstorm and Personal Tutor through Daze, otherwise Crystal Vein doesn't help you cast any of your enables as they all require colored mana. Buried Alive and Show and Tell are the only cards you cast that require colorless mana. If you have a hand with Fetchland + City, I wouldn't play the City until I'm ready to cast either of those cards (or if I fear Daze) since it's not going to help you assemble your combo.

Also, you want two Swamp. They are needed against non-basic hate to cast Buried Alive / Reanimate within the same turn.

jamis

10-25-2010, 05:30 PM

I ended up going 1-2 in the event I went to yesterday. The list I played was:

1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Triskelion

1 Putrid Imp

1 Inkwell Leviathan

3 Reanimate
3 Exhume

4 Buried Alive
2 Lim-Dul's Vault

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
1 Eye of Nowhere

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats

SB:
1 Blazing Archon
2 Necrotic Ooze
3 Wipe Away
4 Echoing Truth
2 Deathmark
3 Pithing Needle

I didn't take enough notes to do a full write-up, but here's what I can tell from what I wrote-down/remember.

Round 1: Merfolk
Game 1, he keeps a hand where his only lands are Mutavault and Wasteland. I take four damage from Mutavault, then Thoughtseize him on my turn 3 and take his Force of Will, and then combo off. I board in Blazing Archon, a Wipe Away, and 3 Pithing Needles. He plays turn 1 Vial, and I play turn 1 pithing needle to stop the vial. I manage to cast Buried Alive, but can't draw a reanimation spell and get beat down by Lord of Atlantis and Coralhelm Commander. Game 3, it's my turn to be mana-screwed, and again I'm beatdown.

Round 2: Burn
Game 1, he knocks me down a few life points and I combo out fairly quick. I take out the Thoughtseizes for Pithing Needles and an Echoing Truth. Game 2, I draw a nuts hand that lets me combo on turn 2. He shows me that he had a Tormod's Crypt in hand, but I did have the single Eye of Nowhere in my hand, so I would have just needed to wait until I had the right amount of mana to bounce it and combo off.

Round 3: Eva Green
I don't remember too much about this game other than he Maelstrom Pulsed my Chrome Mox which left me 1 mana short of comboing off. I board out some discard for Echoing Truths and Needles. Game 2, I draw the turn 1 win, but he thoughtseizes the Buried Alive from my hand. I topdeck another Buried Alive on my turn 2 and win. Game 3, I go for the combo fairly quickly, but he extirpates my Necrotic Ooze in repose the the Reanimate. I manage to reanimate my Inkwell Leviathan, but he has a Nighthawk that he leaves untapped to block. After several turns of draw-go, he Edicts me, and swings for the win.

Ponder was a pretty terrible replacement for Personal Tutor, and it cost me game 2 against Merfolk and a game against Eva Green. I managed to trade for a playset after the tournament, though. I'll be taking the new build to a larger event on Saturday, so I'm hoping the inclusion of Personal Tutor will help.

jamis

10-31-2010, 06:00 AM

[Report] (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19200-[Report]-Necrotic-Ooze-Combo-Splits-Top-4-in-Ann-Arbor-MI&p=498165)

death

10-31-2010, 09:20 AM

Congrats on your finish! I knew from the start finding those Tutors will change everything. I've been goldfishing a list for about a week now and I have never found a more synergistic application for Personal Tutors. I was pretty nervous about your manabase and I'm not quite sold on the Chrome Moxes but hey, they worked for you!

I have a few questions for you though,
1. How does Putrid Imp perform compare to say Careful Study?
2. Choosing Inky instead of Iona, would the results vary otherwise?
3. Has the single Eye ever been useful game 1s/ feels like a dead card?

Regarding your sb, I find the 2 Deathmarks redundant with a set of Echoing Truths. I imagine it would be great against Iona but why didn't you board it in against Sur?

jamis

10-31-2010, 11:11 PM

Thanks. Yeah, Personal Tutors really pull the deck together, they're just too perfect here. I played the Chrome Mox pretty much as a budget choice the week before since I didn't own the City of Traitors and couldn't get them in time, but after testing them in that tournament, I ended up really liking them since they tap for colored mana, so I kept them in over the Cities for this event.

To address your questions:
1. Putrid Imp is far more efficient than Careful Study for discarding Triskelions and Devourers. Using Careful Study, you need a Personal Tutor to find it (usually), then need to wait a turn, so it costs you two mana and a turn. Putrid Imp allows you to just cast Buried Alive like normal and put P.Imp in place of the card in your hand, so you don't need any additional cards or mana. If I used the counter-suite rather than discard, which I'm still considering, I'd probably play Aquamoeba.

2. Inkwell vs. Iona is something I've really been debating about. I only go the Reanimator route rather than the necrotic Ooze route in two situations. The first is if I draw the nuts hand with an Inkwell, Reanimate and Putrid Imp (or some variant of this). This happened much more than I expected at the tournament, and in this situation Iona would probably be better. In fact, game 1 against New Horizons and possibly game 1 against Survival, I probably would have won if it were Iona instead of Inkwell. The second reason I'd go that route, though, is if my opponent has shut me off the Ooze combo with something like Extirpate or Faerie Macabre. In that scenario, it's probably later in the game, and Iona would be less impressive. Though, that situation never happened in the tournament, as opposed to the first one that happened quite a few times. I probably will end up playing Iona maindeck, and probably move Inkwell to the board with 2 Show and Tells.

3. So far, I haven't needed to use the Eye. Though, if top 4 did play out, I could see it being useful at bouncing a Humility in the Landstill match. I also didn't get paired against any Trinket Mage/Enlightened Tutor decks, but since they sometimes have a maindeck Pithing Needle or Relic, I do like having an out to them. When I played Storm combo, pre-mystical banning, I always included a single Wipe Away as an out to CB, and this is along the same thought. So yeah, it's probably a dead card most of the time, but having the option may be more a playstyle thing than anything else.

Yeah, the Deathmarks are redundant, and I'd probably cut them if I get the Show and Tells. The only creature I really thought about them being useful against was Meddling Mage, but now that you mention Iona, I probably should have brought them in against Survival. That entire match was full of play mistakes on my part, to be honest.

addaro

11-01-2010, 07:40 AM

Alexeezay

11-01-2010, 08:14 AM

hey guys, is the Bg version or a BU version without Personal Tutor possible? Because I can't afford the personal tutors.

jamis

11-02-2010, 12:12 PM

Hi Jamis,

first congratulations!

Second, I was trying this deck to work but it didnt that well for me as it did for you. My opponents were mulliganing G2/3 for the grave hate and it became quite hard to beat it (backed up by countermagic/discard). What do you propose for the Show and Tell package? It is quite easy to do it in Reanimator as it plays 7 creatures, but here it seems hard...

I haven't tested the SnT package yet, so I don't know how well this would work, but I was thinking having 3 targets postboard, with 2-3 Show And Tells. I'd probably move LDV up to 3, as that's how I'd be tutoring for the creatures. Again, I haven't tested it though, so I don't know if this would be enough or if more sideboard slots would be needed to make it work. Really, the more I think about it, I'd be moving towards the list Jander posted.

hey guys, is the Bg version or a BU version without Personal Tutor possible? Because I can't afford the personal tutors.
I played a BU version of this about 2 weeks ago and it really didn't work. You could try it with a different tutor such as Beeseech the Queen, but I'm not sure if it would slow down your clock too much to still be able to beat fast aggro.

addaro

11-02-2010, 12:28 PM

Yeah well that is basically the list that everyone and me was trying in the first thread. I find it quite brutal if opponent cant blow your graveyard right now, but when it came to fighting all those crypts and relics and leylines it became quite difficult. Thats why we all used the Reanimator shell and just swaped Entomb/Buried Alive, 7 creatures + 1 SnT/4 creatures and 4 Dark Rituals, 4 Careful Study/ 4 Personal Tutors. Thats it. If you stay with the 3 color 14 land mana base you even get Natures Ruin and Xantid Swarm from the SB.

Kirbykopf432

11-06-2010, 11:45 AM

Hey jamis built pretty the same deck with a few differences, go to thread http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19242- and go to page two where I updated the list
greetz Kirby

ivanpei

11-07-2010, 08:01 PM

Ok I would like to start of with a hearty pat on the back for jamis, jander and company for inspiring me to get of my fat ass (but very skinny wallet) to purchase and build this deck. Great work on the deck! My version is full on show and tell after board as fighting tormod's crypt is hard, fighting extirpate is impossible.

The list:

Combo Pieces: 14

4 Reanimate:
2 Exhume
4 Buried Alive
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Aquamoeba
1 Trisk
1 Devourer

Tutors and draw: 14
4 Lim Dul's Vault
2 Personal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Disruption: 7
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize

Acceleration: 9
3 Lotus Petal
3 Dark Ritual
3 Chrome Mox

Lands: 16
4 U Sea
4 Delta
1 Flooded
1 Misty
1 Mire
1 Catacombs
2 Island
2 Swamp

SB:
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
3 Daze- Loose slot, open to suggestions
1 Wipe away/Chain of vapor/bounce- suggestions?

Firstly, I really prefer the Force of will versions because force is the best disruption spell, and its free to cast/ reactive which is very important. Another glaring difference is the tutor package, which runs 4 LDV and only 2 personal tutor. I use this package as personal tutor is sucky after boarding into show and tell. After goldfishing/ testing with this list against many fast aggro decks (even gobbos with wasteland), The extra 1 mana for LDV was not a problem. I was always 1.5 turns ahead when on the play and about 1 turn ahead when on the draw (due to the extra card giving me more dig).

I intially tried the reanimator SB, but grave hate is still a bitch. You also have to fight all those extra spell pierces etc from the board and you die an ugly death. Them (blue): In 3 Grave hate, 3 Spell pierce- This is what I assume most blue decks will bring in, or something similar, you : - 1 tutor, -1 Cantrip, -2 lotus petals, + 2 Reanimator targets, + show and tell + bounce. Basically they bring it plenty of active cards but you have to bring in shitty alternate combos to survive a tormod's crypt/relic. I found that post board I simply could not win against blue with a similar kind of +6 active cards SB plan.

Thus I play a totally different combo deck postboard with ALL grave related cards out (14) and 14 cards in to transform into a fully functional show and tell deck with ZERO dead cards. Everything that was used to find the buried alive/reanimate combo works on show and tell too (LDV/personal) while LDV finds emrakul. With 8 Cantrips, assembling the combo is very easy. Honestly, the show and tell combo is more compact as you are -6 combo components (no aquamoeba, ooze, trisk, devourer, no exhume) while show and tell is swapped with reanimate and emrakul replaces buried alive. Its also easier to cast as show and tell is just 3 mana while exhume/reanimate + buried alive is 4/5 mana. With that free 6 slots, you can fit in 2 Duress, 1 thoughtseize and 3 Daze for ALOT of extra protection. With a disruption package of 4 Force, 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Duress, 3 Daze (which they did not see and don't know about after G1), you can blow past alot of countermagic while dodging grave hate.

Only down side is: You are now vulnerable to jace, o-ring, karakas, ensnaring bridge, humility etc etc etc. The combo is also no longer insta kill, so you CAN be raced. However its a fair trade off. I'm not too worried about the hate cards that are >2 mana, as you have so much discard/counters, you should be able to blow past them. I'd always bring show and tell package in game 2 to dodge hate. If I lose G2 and do not reveal any combo components, I'll still go show and tell G3. If I reveal my trick, I'll shuffle my whole sideboard in and make my opponent guess. At this stage I will make the choice of show and tell/necrotic based on what my opponent is playing. If blue, I'll always play show and tell, having + 6 more live cards is more important than being slightly faster. If against aggro, I'll stick to necrotic ooze combo and -1 lotus petal, -1 ponder, -1 LDV to go + 2 duress + 1 thoughtseize. You should be on the play and your 6 discard spells + 4 force should be able to nab their crypts before they land.

death

11-07-2010, 11:11 PM

2 PT is meh. Additional P. Tutors can fetch Thoughtsieze just in case you have both the discard outlet and combo piece in your hand with no brainstorm. And how many times do you feel you would ever cast Moeba? If cmc is now irrelevant since you already disregarded P. Imp, may I suggest Cephalid Inkshrouder.

ivanpei

11-07-2010, 11:32 PM

If you don't play force, putrid imp is a good choice as it can chump a lacky/ dude. Aquamoeba being blue is useful because it pitches to force and also can be cast to hold off a lackey when on the play or a kird ape/loam liom/steppe lynx. Being 2 cc is quite relevant actually. I already explained why I play only 2 personal tutor. I understand sacrificing a bit of maindeck speed for SB tech is unconventional, but I feel that the slight hit in G1 speed (which you most probably will be winning) is ok for better games 2 and 3. P.tutor -> thoughtseize yourself is a really poor play, you are basically -3 ing your self. In that case I would rather be LDV-ing for a brainstorm...

Edit: LDV is also a much better overall tutor. It can find "good bounce" like chain of vapor, echoing truth or wipe away (I prefer wipeaway). Post board LDV is definitely > personal. Pre board, personal is slightly better, but I've found that the narrowness is quite a pain at times. Due to the combo being mana intensive I've found that LDV for missing combo component + acceleration to be game winning at times. Its quite common to be able to "double tutor" with LDV. I'm happy with the tutor package I'm running right now.

jamis

11-08-2010, 11:34 AM

I like the list. I'm not sure about Ponder over extra protection such as Pact, but I guess I could see the extra dig being useful, especially post-board.

I'm really weary about just the two Personal Tutors. I could see a 3/3 split between Tutor and LDV, but I really have a hard time not justifying Personal Tutor as a 4-of. I don't think it's as dead post-board, though, as it still finds Show and Tells, but I do agree that LDV is really what you want.

Anyway, now that a list has more or less been figured out, I'll start working on a proper Primer for the deck. I've been pretty busy lately, so I'll probably keep it very brief, but after I edit the OP if Jander, Ivanpei or anyone else who has been working on the deck wants to add to it, just send me a PM and I'll edit it in.

edit: updated the OP. I wasn't really sure what to use as the sample decklist, so I tried to combine what everyone was playing. Let me know of any changes that should be made.

Gui

11-08-2010, 01:03 PM

hey guys, is the Bg version or a BU version without Personal Tutor possible? Because I can't afford the personal tutors.

Maybe you could try a BR version with Burning Wish ^^

rufus

11-08-2010, 03:26 PM

It's probably too slow, but has anyone tried Gifts Ungiven -> Putrid Imp, Necrotic Ooze, Triskelion, Phyrexian Devourer would work if you have reanimation in hand.

ivanpei

11-08-2010, 06:48 PM

I agree that personal tutor is better than LDV if you are playing straight up ooze and maybe just a small show and tell SB plan. I have tested totally switching the deck around post board and the show and tell deck really can't function well without 4 LDV. Its an evil that we have to live with though. I think I might cut 1 LDV main for personal and put a LDV in the board instead of wipeaway. I realised that if I were playing against counterbalance, show and tell is really hard to catch with counterbalance, being 3cc and all. Cheers!

EDIT: Just looked at OP, looks good, very solid. Good work! I've been really liking the 4 ponders maindeck though. I goldfished over 100 times yesterday and ponder was one of the best cards to draw. Though I'm skimping on protection G1 to have more consistency, I realize I don't always play against blue. I wanted to make sure I go off consistently by turn 3 vs aggro. Even against blue, with 3 Thoughtseize, 4 Force and 8 cantrips + 6 tutors, I can play a very slow roll game to ruin my opponents hand first before going for it. Just a heads up, I think 11 protection is overkill, I prefer 7/8. Also I'm not running pact because of postboarding in to show and tell where pact is terrible. Cheers.

death

11-09-2010, 08:55 AM

It's probably too slow, but has anyone tried Gifts Ungiven -> Putrid Imp, Necrotic Ooze, Triskelion, Phyrexian Devourer would work if you have reanimation in hand.

In a competitive setting, the meta is considerably fast and games wouldn't last long for you to combo out with Gifts+Exhume (assuming you can't Reanimate due to low life points)

Against very slow clocks, Gifts can pull the trick, but with mystical out, you'd be relying only on LDV. If you have LDV, you'd probably be vaulting for BA anyway.

ivanpei

11-09-2010, 10:43 AM

Agreed with death, Gifts is too slow. LDV is much better. I just did some more testing tonight and I realized that LDV -> personal tutor. I know the extra mana is not hot on paper, but guys try it! I've found the following situations come up very often and LDV straight up won me the game when personal tutor couldnt:

1. I need to look for a non-sorcery (usually brainstorm/dark ritual). LDV ing into dark ritual has won me alot of games, personal would not have done the job. LDV into brainstorm to get rid of dead cards in hand has won me games too.

2. Double tutoring- I use LDV to find a missing combo component + whatever I need to win- This is the main power of LDV. Against aggro I've used it to find combo piece, put it on top, followed by a land/mana source be 100% sure I win during the next turn. Personal tutor felt weak in comparison. Against blue, I look for a pile that has disruption/blue card for force + combo piece. This is especially relevant, going for thoughtseize into combo the following turn is retardedly broken.

I really really like LDV. I will stick to my 4 LDV, 2 Personal package. LDV is busted nuts by itself MD in addition to being superior post board.

Gui

11-10-2010, 10:38 AM

This came to my mind: after LDV, preordain and serum can clean the trash from the top 5. Aren't these worth testing instead of Ponder or even BS?

EDIT: Hm... second thought, just ignore this statement, it's a top 5, not that 2 cards will help anyways ><

Preordain is probably similar to ponder, tho

ivanpei

11-10-2010, 07:06 PM

Thats cool, any ideas are welcome. I've made some recent changes to the deck, but won't spoil it here, a friend may plan to play it in a big tourney. Want to keep the tech secret for now. Lol.

LegacyDan

11-11-2010, 12:12 AM

Once you have Necrotic Ooze in play and the other two cards in your graveyard, you are ready to combo off. Simply activate Phyrexian Devourer’s ability until you exile a card with CMC 1 or 2. This will put 1 or 2 counters on Nectrotic Ooze, which you can then remove via Triskelion’s ability to deal damage to your opponent. If you reveal a card with CMC 3 or larger, you respond to that activation until you reveal a card that won’t make Necroitic Ooze’s power above 6.

Why does it matter if Oozes Power becomes higher than 6? its not like he gains Devourers first ability, it only gains activated abilities. Oh, and I like the ay this deck is looking. Maybe some detailed matchups are in order?

death

11-11-2010, 12:49 AM

Phyrexian Devourer
Exile the top card of your library: Put X +1/+1 counters on Phyrexian Devourer, where X is the exiled card's converted mana cost. If Phyrexian Devourer's power is 7 or greater, sacrifice it.

Whenever a card refers to itself using its name, it means "this card". When Necrotic Ooze gains Devourer's ability, you are going to lose Ooze if you flip a card >3cc unless you flip again in response explicitly maintaining priority after each activation, you lower Ooze's power with Trike.

ivanpei

11-11-2010, 01:05 AM

Its re-errataed to be part of the activated ability. So you sacrifice upon resolution of the ability. Since you RFG as part of the cost, you can respond to it and just continue, never letting the ability resolve if you hit something > 2 cc. I dunno about everyone else, but my list is pretty close to busted consistent. This deck wrecks non-blue while being pretty respectable vs blue. Post board with so much more protection coming in, it can put up a strong fight against even the heaviest blue control.

EDIT: Some rough observations after almost 500 goldfishes or so.

This is assuming on the play with 7 cards in hand. Numbers get better on the draw and worse if mulling.

Without protection
Combo off turn 2 about 15% of the time. Need to have a pretty damn Good hand. 60% of the time Turn 3, 25% turn 4. This is assuming on the play with 7 cards in hand. Numbers get better on the draw and worse if mulling.

With Protection. (With force/thoughtseize first)
25% of the time turn 3, 50% of the time turn 4, 25% of the time turn 5.

These are some pretty good stats IMO. Its reaching the realm of TES consistency and speed.

death

11-11-2010, 09:56 AM

I'm testing Jander's 58+2 fetchlands and the results are quite similar. Although a turn slower than the U/B/w ANT I'm playing, it's more resilient to countermagic, specifically spell snare/daze due to non-reliance with 2cc spells and 7-11 disruption slots with at least 9 accel. I also find it more consistent and sketchy hands just get better with mulling due to the redundancy that 7-8 tutors offer (>4 cantrips is also an option).

One of the reasons my list has 8 fetchlands is that with 4 basics it doesn't fold to Wasteland.dec and can completely ignore Stifle unlike Storm.

LegacyDan

11-11-2010, 11:38 AM

rufus

11-11-2010, 03:34 PM

That oracle text is redundant.

Actually it's not. Without the clause in the ability, you could, for example, Fling the devourer before it self-destructed.

ivanpei

11-11-2010, 08:07 PM

Good point rufus, I was wondering why they would re-erata such a jank card anyway. On another note, is no one else testing the 8 cantrip versions? Maybe I just have a preference for high consistency over speed.

@ Death: I'm running 8 fetches and 4 basics too. I can usually play around wasteland. I love it. This deck is much more resilient to wasteland and counterspells compared to TES/ANT, doomsday etc. Also you don't have to go "all in". If you're stuff gets countered, you don't lose, just look for another piece/tutor.

slaydo

11-18-2010, 02:25 PM

Hi there,

long time troller on this forum. I came across this deck right before my legacy nationals held last weekend and thought it was too late to switch decks right before the event so I took GWb survival and failed horribly :(. I came to the conclusion at the event that the best decks in legacy are decks that win now, like ANT or TES. I proxied and traded this deck during the event and after showing how it works to people at the event who have far more advanced knowledge of the format I felt that this is a deck for me.

Let me know what you think. I am really curious.

4 polluted delta
1 misty rainforest
2 marsh flats
2 underground sea
3 ancient tomb
3 island
1 swamp

1 necrotic ooze
1 triskelion
1 phyrexian devourer
1 iona, shield of emeria

4 buried alive
4 reanimate
3 exhume

4 force of will
4 pact of negation
4 brainstorm
4 lim dûl's vault
2 personal tutor

4 dark ritual
4 lotus petal
3 chrome mox

side:
4 show and tell
4 emrakul the aeons thorn
4 duress
3 thoughtseize

it plays a transformational sideboard that no opponent will see coming :) I have won on turn 1, 2, 3 and even after a mulligan to 4 on the draw. This was all done during goldfishing. I realize that a lot of decks do not have any answer to it game 1 and game 2 they will never see the show and tell plan coming. I feel this deck is nuts.

your comments?

slaydo

ivanpei

11-18-2010, 09:59 PM

I prefer discard MD over pacts, but thats a personal preference, Being able to stop a turn 1 kitty/lackey or a counterbalance/ survival/TES from killing you is more versatile. I run just 6 reanimation because Ooze counts as the 7th reanimation spell. I don't see a need for Iona, I play narcamoeba in that slot. Iona can be a good SB show and tell target. I think ancient tombs are not required as you have so much acceleration already and you really want colored mana. I recommend the 5-8th cantrips for consistency. I prefer to have the most flexible, consistent and redundant combo deck.

My list has undergone some changes, but I prefer not to go public with it for now. Pm me for details.

pippo84

11-19-2010, 05:01 AM

@ivanpei: Think you run Aquamoeba, not Narcomoeba, unless you want to dredge!

:cool:

ivanpei

11-19-2010, 10:14 AM

Ooops! Good catch! Cheers.

comeback

11-20-2010, 06:38 AM

How do you remove a Pithing Needle that call Ooze?

death

11-20-2010, 10:19 AM

I still do not expect any resistance g1 so bounce spells serve no function. In g2, a transformational sb bypasses Ooze hate. If you are referring to slaydo's list, I would suggest at least 1 bounce spell in his 75.

Eye of Nowhere or Wipe Away/Echoing Truth takes care of hate cards. If you play 4x Personal Tutors your choice should be the sorcery, and if you have 4 LDVs you could choose any bounce spell.

ivanpei

11-20-2010, 10:18 PM

@ Death, yup transformational sideboard makes hate very tricky. Also, I'd like to add that I hate bounce in the 75. LDV-ing for a 1 off sucks, you should expect to lose a butt load of life. Also Personal tutor only fetches eye to nowhere or sorcery answers which suck. Your deck is mana intensive, so you want something instant so you can eot bounce, your turn combo. Say you are facing tormod's crypt and you have 3 lands + petal/ritual. You need 4 mana for buried + reanimate, now its 6 mana because of eye, which is hard to get. If it was echoing truth you can eot bounce, then go off. Basically, 1 off bounce sucks in Ooze combo. Go transformational.

slayjay

11-21-2010, 11:18 AM

yesterday, I won a 18 - person-tournament with this deck at JK entertainment store.

It was a lot of fun to play and very strong, but some games were even close.
Here is the list I played:

jens jaeger, Team N!´s ooze combo:

// Lands
2 [ZEN] Swamp (2)
2 [8E] Island (1)
3 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
1 [AL] Phyrexian Devourer
1 [TO] Putrid Imp
1 [AQ] Triskelion
1 [SCA] Necrotic Ooze

// Spells
3 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [CHK] Eye of Nowhere
4 [MI] Dark Ritual
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [PT] Personal Tutor
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [US] Exhume
4 [TE] Reanimate
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
4 [WL] Buried Alive

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 4 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 4 [RIS] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

After a lot of goldfishing, I cut all of the lotus petals. why? In my eyes it is important to get fast two mana for vault, and then next turn 3 mana for buried alive. With petals, there was often a lack of a permanent mana. Sure, petal is faster, but less consistent, and this gets more important after sideboarding with show and tell.

Here a short report:

1. round: mono black
I was facing a deck with maindeck 4 extirpate and 4 faerie macabers....and duress, thoughtseize and hymn to tourach...first game my hand was discarded, buried alive extirpated and I conceced in response. He didn´t know what kind of deck I played.
I played a thoughtseize of my own, so I recocnized that he plays gatekeeper of malakir, so I decided not to board emrakuls.

second game he started again with duress and hymn, but was stuck at one land. I had four lands and reanimate + buried alive, but was afraid of extirpate. luckily, he drawed his second land, played confidant, had no mana free....I combo off and luckily he had no faerie macabre.

Third game he boarded 4 addidtional cards, leyline of the void as I guessed (this was right), and I hope that he boards out some gatekeepers...so I went for emrakul.
He starts with extirpate on my thoughtseize I played furst turn, no permanents on his hand.
second turn show and tell finished him off. he still had three gatekeepers of malakir in this game in his deck. lucky me.

1-0, 2:1

2. round: uw faerie landstill, with meddling mages, jotun grunt, cloud of faeries, aether vial, daze, force, spell snare...
first game I hardcast a triskelion off a rit, to kill his 3 faeries, and kill him a few turns later with the combo (trisk died blocking a grunt).
second game fourth turn show and tell into emrakul was enough. laugh at the 3 relics of progenitus he played.
He did know what kind of deck I played.

2-0, 4:1

3. round: white weenie
ethersworn canonist slowed me down a little bit, but little 2-power-men were not fast enought to kill me before I could combo off.
Second game fourth turn emrakul was enough. laughed again about the tormods crypts he had for my grave...
He didn´t know what kind of deck I played.

3-0, 6:1

4. me and a dredge player were the only ones who 3-0 ed, so we decided to draw, my opp score was far better than his.
in the fun games I killed him second turn with combo twice.
He didn´t know what kind of deck I played.

3-0-1, 6:1 (8:1)

so, finally I got a revised scrubland, the dredge player two fetchies.

the tranformational sideboard is great and important, I board nearly every game the whole 15 cards and the combo out.
also, the deck is not that well-known at this moment, so it could be a good metagame call because your opponents often doesn´t real know what to do.
I would replay the decklist just at it is, it worked very fine.

jamis

11-24-2010, 04:44 PM

Nice job on the tournament Slayjay! Yeah, I think a main strength of the deck right now is that your opponent likely won't know how to or be able to deal with the combo, which definitely gives you a huge advantage.

Anyway, this is my current decklist:

1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Aquamoeba
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Buried Alive
4 Personal Tutor
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Reanimate
2 Exhume

3 Thoughtseize
4 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
1 Eye of Nowhere

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats

Sideboard:
1 Blazing Archon
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Show and Tell
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Wipe Away
3 Echoing Truth

I was debating on Spell Pierce vs. Dispel for protection. Dispel is obviously better in a counterwar, but I do like that Spell Pierce also deals with discard and problem artifact/enchantments.

GGoober

11-24-2010, 05:11 PM

Wow I just realized what Aquamoeba is used for. This is very smart, I feel dumb not to think about Ooze copying Moeba if you drew either Devourer or triskelion in hand so you just Buried Alive for the other creature + Moeba and win anyway with a reanimate! I like it and will test this up if I can get Entomb and SnT for cheap (doubt this will ever happen. Sigh $1 SnTs...)

ivanpei

11-25-2010, 08:36 PM

Doesn't play entomb. :) Save you some dolla dolla there. I like this much more than reanimator. Reanimator was slowed alot since the banning of mystical. Turn 2 Iona's are now pretty rare. On average you get a monster turn 3, which is often not fast enough before getting run over by zoo/folk's dudes. Entomb's stock has been falling recently, it will continue to fall IMO. I wouldn't invest in it. Cheers.

pocari79

11-26-2010, 11:51 AM

I've been playtesting this deck for a while now and am I the only one who hates chrome mox with a passion? Everytime I draw the mox there's either nothing to pitch to or I need to pitch something crucial to the combo so it's always stuck in my hand. Does anybody have any adequate replacement for the moxes other than lands? and I'm already playing 4 lotus petals and those are way, way better than the chrome mox.

ivanpei

11-27-2010, 01:28 AM

Same conclusion, I'll spoil my new decklist now since the tourney is over and done with. Here's a report from my buddy who played my exact md:

Hi,

thanks a lot for your decklist, I won that tournament - I played your maindeck list, but I made some changes in sideboard due to my blue meta, it was a first time I played this deck without any training, but as I sayed I played reanimator for couple of months and I think it's little bit similar strategy:

MD
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 LDV
2 Personal Tutor

1 Aquamoeba
1 Trisk
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Ooze
4 Buried alive
4 Reanimate
2 Exhume

4 Force
4 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal

4 Underground Sea
4 Delta
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Misty
1 Scalding
1 Verdant
1 Marsh Flats

SB
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul
4 Duress
3 Daze

there were 19 players at tournament and we played 4 rounds of swiss then standings. Nobody knows what I was playing so I switched for sideboard combo in every match and it was very surprising.

Round 1 VS ANT
Game 1:
I kept slow hand with thoughtseize and some business cards. He had slow hand too, so we did nothing several turns and then I completed combo and killed him.
Game 2:
I mulligened three times to hand with 2x show and tell, duress and daze. He was on play and play swamp duress (discard daze) and passed. I draw undergroud sea play duress and discard ill gotten gains (he had LED, cabal and lands), second turn I drew ponder which shows me fetch, petal and emrakul, It couldn't be better so I played land, petal and emrakul and he scoops.

Round 2 VS Brown stax
It was a friend of mine, but he goes more aggro route with lodestone golem etc. There were two very slow games which I didn't remember, but I won. After sideboarding he has only chalice of the void and ensnaring bridge and trinisphere agains me which I discarded or countered.

Round 3 VS monoblue Merfolk
Game 1:The most closed matchup, I won first game after thoughtseising him and go off same turn.
Game 2: Lost second game due to his topdeck of spell pierce (seized him turn before I went off).
Game 3: Third game (all sideboard plan included due to more protection) was cakewalk. I duressed him first turn - he had crypt, pierce and some lords so I discarded pierce, and go off second turn with show and tell and emrakul.

Round 4 VS RB Goblins
Game 1: I mulligened to five, but had reanimate and lim dul's vault in hand, so I kiledl him on turn three.
Game 2: Second game he runs me pretty fast with piledrivers and warchiefs, but he still didn't know what I'm playing after sideboard. As I remember I mulligened once.
Game 3: Third game (still sideboard plan) second turn emrakul made it.

So I finished firs with record 4:0 (8:2 total in games) and won revised Scrubland - I was very happy with decklist, it's very powerful in meta where nobody knows what your are playing, I find miself mulligened couple of times due to lack of tutors, so maybe the only change I made is to switch 1-2 ponders for 1-2 personal tutors. Everything else its OK.

Thanks again for a nice decklist:)

Bye

Pavel

If You want, You can past this report to the the forum;)

pocari79

11-29-2010, 09:43 AM

@ivanpei

How are you finding the ponders? and did you replace the chrome moxes with lands? or a combination of lands and ponders?

I found during my testing that i'm having a hard time trying to determine if i should ponder first or personal tutor first if i have both cards in my opening hand. of course the decision becomes easier/harder depending which matchup you're playing against but during goldfishing, it just doesn't have that smooth mana curve feel.

Karhumies

11-30-2010, 10:49 PM

My account just got activated, so I have posted a lengthy Ooze tournament report from Finnish Legacy Champs here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19411-Finnish-Legacy-Champs-Necrotic-Ooze&p=504269

ivanpei

12-01-2010, 08:12 AM

I'm a big fan of ponders. I cut 3 chrome for 1 thoughtseize, 1 dark ritual and 1 lotus petal. Ponders smooth out your draws or dig for tutors/components/disruption. I would play a full set of 4. You could play more tutors, but they don't help if you dont have enough land, or are facing blue where tutors are card disadvantage. Against non-blue I have no issues finding the combo and winning before I die. So the ponders really beef up your blue MU, smoothing out your draws and finding you exactly what you need.

Btw @ Karhumies, your tournament report is amazingly conprehensive. Congratulations! Your scooping is early is also an excellent strategy.

Karhumies

12-01-2010, 08:43 AM

If I were to re-participate in that same tournament tomorrow, here is the list I would play:

Main deck (60)
// Lands (16)
2 Swamp
2 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scalding Tarn
*
// Creatures (4)
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Aquamoeba
1 Triskelion
1 Necrotic Ooze
*
// Win Combo (10)
4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
2 Exhume (Reanimate #5-6)
*
// Interaction (10)
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Peek (or Spell Pierce)

// Acceleration (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
*
// Tutor & cantrip (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Personal Tutor
2 Ponder (4 Sorceries is enough for me)

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 Show and Tell
SB: 4 Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 2 Spell Pierce (or if MD 2 Spell Pierce over Peek, then SB: 2 Extirpate)
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Wipe Away (or Echoing Truth)

Comments on MD:
I found out Ponder to have diminishing returns similar to P.Tutor, although not quite as bad. This is mostly because it's a Sorcery, making it nice on T1 if you do not have a Thoughtseize/Duress, but sucky when drawn into with a Brainstorm or after resolving a LDV. Currently, the strongest T2 play is LDV - especially if you have a Petal or are not playing vs blue deck. However, an alternative very strong T2 play would be Brainstorm,fetch,Peek to check the opponent's defences before comboing off. Others may prefer additional protection, in which case I would recommend MD Spell Pierce rather than Pact, as Pierce is really good vs early game Duress/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy, thus saving your FoW for the comboing off part when you do not have the spare mana. My biggest issue with Ponder, however, is that I want that 1 mana open on opponent's turn to respond to his inquisition of kozilek/duress/thoughtseize with Spell Pierce or Brainstorm, which may save a FoW for the important comboing off part.

Comments on SB:
I feel that Iona deserves a spot in SB, as she shines the brightest against troublesome mono-colored decks, namely Merfolk and Solidarity. Especially Solidarity may just Cunning Wish->Hibernation/Submerge vs the other critters. Daze was bad on the draw, and its alternative casting cost was usually a time walk for my opponent. Opponent was 1 mana ahead anyway, so often he got "accidentally" around Daze. Daze was good (only) as 1st turn combo protection, but then again, you may often just as well hold off the combo until T2. 6 Discard effects after SB seems to work the best for me. Extirpate lets you see the opponent's hand with split second, which is IMO exactly what we need. However, Peek is blue and cantrips, and when combined these cards have diminishing returns, so you have to choose one or the other. Extirpating a Duress/FoW seems nice at least on paper, and the card has its uses even against Dredge and Storm combo.

nodahero

12-01-2010, 04:32 PM

Am I being an idiot... Doesn't your deck just absolutely fold to a resolved pithing needle? Crypt... Relic... or discarded Macabre? Why would you want to play this over a different deck?

This seems like a significantly weaker Glass Cannon then Belcher although it seems like you game 1 win percentage would be sickeningly good.

Tinefol

12-01-2010, 05:30 PM

That's why there is the SNT/Emrakul plan in sideboard.

ivanpei

12-01-2010, 06:30 PM

@ nodahero

Read the lists. It boards completely into snt. Isn't it great when your opponents bring in the hate like crypt, relic, needle which are completely useless? ;)

Agreed belcher is a glass cannon. But this deck can run 4 seize, 4 fow md and after boarding, + 2 duress + 3 spell pierce. How is that a glass cannon?

jamis

12-01-2010, 08:03 PM

HurpDurpification

12-02-2010, 07:05 PM

Has anyone had a game were they played a lot of tutors and draw, then there wasn't enough stuff left in the deck to kill them?

seams rare, but just wondering.

ivanpei

12-03-2010, 12:34 AM

With this MD:

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 LDV
2 Personal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Reanimate
2 Exhume
1 Aquamoeba

You have a total cc of 36 (below 3 cc). Which is more than enough. You have to cast/draw 17 cc equivalent of 1/2cc spells to have the combo not kill someone at 20 life. To draw 17 cc worth of spells, you have to draw 17/36 of your deck (assuming the distribution is even across the deck) which is 47.22% of your deck or 28.3 cards. IMO, it is highly unlikely for a combo deck to draw half the deck before comboing off/dying. My 2 cents.

Karhumies

12-03-2010, 01:50 PM

Has anyone had a game were they played a lot of tutors and draw, then there wasn't enough stuff left in the deck to kill them?

You have a total cc of 36 (below 3 cc). - -

If you have one of the combo pieces in hand and Buried Alive for Aquamoeba and use its power once to switch Ooze's Power/Toughness from 4/3 to 3/4, you also gain 3 Buried Alive = +9 damage. If something generates bucketloads of life for the opponent (e.g. infinite life with ThopterSword combo), yeah you lose the game. But then again, it's impossible to kill from that kind of a position with Tendrils of Agony storm either, so it's not really a unique or even a significant weakness for our Ooze deck. Usually, G1 we combo so fast that the amount of cc2 or less cards in the deck never becomes an issue. A more significant problem is that we are revealing more than half of our deck to the opponent.

Karhumies

12-03-2010, 02:56 PM

Hm, I still really like Chrome Mox, especially with LDV, but if everyone is deciding Petal and Rit are enough acceleration to get by, perhaps I'll test the deck without it. I do think it really shines with the transformational board, though, since the deck gains a less abnormal mana-curve making the fast mana less impressive.

Mox Opal into T1 LDV to find the missing combo piece for T2 win is awesome. However, Mox Opal, on my experience, is more often a bad topdeck, as it seldom makes a difference whether you combo off T2/T3. I'd rather combo T3 with protection than on T2 without, as most of the relevant opposing disruption is cc0-1 anyway (FoW, Daze, Duress, Thoughtseize, Spell Pierce, Inquisition of Kozilek, Disrupt).

Anyway, thanks for the report Karhumies! Congrats on the top 16 finish! Have you considered cutting some of the sideboard protection for more bounce? I've been finding the Show and Tell route to be worse than just boarding anti-hate against certain decks such as Death and Taxes and Stax, so I've been running both the Show and Tell plan and a few bounce spells in the board so that I don't have to go the transformational route against decks that can fight off an Emrakul.

It's a meta choice whether you want to be fully or partly transitional. In an unknown meta, I'd prefer fully transitional. But if you know there are going to be problematic MD cards against Emrakul which will not be SB'd out after G1 (they should, if they play correctly and don't know about your SB plan!), then you can always take precautions when planning your SB. You know your meta better than I do, so feel free to modify stuff. Personally, I prefer the Progenitus in SB because it's really hard to answer with the same cards which answer to Emrakul. Humility would be problematic, but that's cc4 and semi-easily disruptable.

I am not familiar with the Stax MU for this deck. Based on my experience vs Stax using Animator, I guess they should be too slow to answer to T3 Ooze combo, but fast enough to answer T3 Emrakul before T4 combat phase (assuming they go first and it's G2). So I can see your point for non-transitioning vs Stax. Basically, you would have to know which GY hate they have when planning to SB. Even Ravenous Trap hits us because of Buried Alive, you know...

Am I being an idiot... Doesn't your deck just absolutely fold to a resolved pithing needle? Crypt... Relic... or discarded Macabre?

And nodahero, yeah the deck loses preboard to a resolved Pithing Needle if you don't play Eye of Nowhere or a back-up plan such as Iona, and don't have the discard or counter-protection to stop Pithing Needle from coming into play. Same with Humility. Relic and Crypt can be played around if needed, but post-board you can go transformational as Tinefol and Ivanpei mentioned to ignore the hate, or just board in some bounce to deal with opponent's that don't have many answers to the combo.

G1, nobody should be able to name Necrotic Ooze into a Pithing Needle, since you are going to fast-roll the combo if you suspect something like that. Needle is not an instant, except when playing vs Welder Reanimator (Entomb -> Pithing Needle -> weld it). Hopefully, Welder Reanimator will not become a popular deck, as that is a problematic MU. Faerie Macabre and Heap Doll are not played widely enough in MD to problematic in the current meta, but times may change. Thoughtseize hits both, and that's why I would prefer to run 4 in MD.

Why would you want to play this over a different deck?

Because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition Ooze + Emrakul.

rufus

12-04-2010, 01:30 PM

With Kiki-Jiki piles, the combo can go infinite, and keep the deck hidden, but it's a bit slower since it requires haste.

blaat

12-04-2010, 02:26 PM

With Kiki-Jiki piles, the combo can go infinite, and keep the deck hidden, but it's a bit slower since it requires haste.

Was tinkering with this too, since I sold my show 'n tells and wanted something different.
Shallow Grave seems to be a good option to make it work, but that means personal tutor will lose it's power a bit.

jamis

12-04-2010, 10:19 PM

Sounds like win more. You don't need to go infinite when dealing 20 will get you there 99% of the time.

odabella

12-05-2010, 06:00 AM

... and in 0,5 % you need 21-26 (Helix, RWM) but the deck covers this, right? But I have no experience with it...

blaat

12-05-2010, 07:34 AM

... and in 0,5 % you need 21-26 (Helix, RWM) but the deck covers this, right? But I have no experience with it...

See ivanpei's post about CMC 36 available to shoot at opponent.

Did some testing with kiki-jiki piles and doomsday (tutorable) into emrakul, but I guess it's better to fight the graveyard hate, which shouldn't be a big problem with heavy discard and counters.
In other words, the show and tell backup plan still seems the best option.

ivanpei

12-05-2010, 10:06 AM

Correct guys, usually 21-16 damage can account for warmonks/jitte etc etc. The deck is pretty matured as it is already. I can't really see much innovation more than this barring a few tweaks here and there in the MD and board. I'm pretty happy with my MD above and the board has 12/13 card set in stone while the last 2/3 are flexible. I also think that the deck will find it hard to go sideplan dday. Dday into emrakul IMO is a very narrow plan that is only good against stuff with no wastelands and are not very aggro (eg counterbalance, slow blue control). Show and tell emrakul is much more flexible and only slightly slower (same speed to assemble + cast, only difference is that you have to get the turn back before wrecking your opponent's face, thus vulnerable to alpha strike/jace/o-ring etc).

datanaga

12-05-2010, 10:54 AM

forsmark

12-05-2010, 01:45 PM

I am really liking the idea of the deck. The buried alive + reanimation spell combo seem like a really solid wincon g1. The sideboarding into a totally different, but equally deadly, combo is awesome as well.

However, I have one question: Why the emphasis on going so fast, i.e. the dark rituals and chrome moxes. My first intuition about this deck was that it was a really compact combo, which makes to ideally suited for an UB (or even UBW) control shell. Why is the faster more combo esque style chosen instead?

- forsmark

Dark Ritual

12-05-2010, 04:44 PM

Because you want to win as fast as possible? Legacy is defined by its speed. And we run LDV and thoughtseize, which can cause a lot of lifeloss as well as fow costing 1 life I guess. Really, a more controllish route is not what this deck wants. This is a combo deck and we want to be very fast.

And if you think you won't have enough cmc to shoot at the opponent, board in a singleton emrakul. That will get there every time pretty much guaranteed since emrakul is a 15 drop lol. Then again for that to happen the game has to drag out for a very long time...which rarely comes up. And is also why show and tell is useful to cheat emrakul into play. You won't lose if you SnT an emrakul into play barring karakas.

blaat

12-05-2010, 05:46 PM

How does the kiki-jiki pile work?

If you copy kiki's activated ability (without haste), you have to wait until next turn, because ooze has summoning sickness, than ooze wants to copy itself (without haste again), so I doubt it works...

Buried Alive -> ooze, kiki-jiki and random win creature like Mogg Fanatic.
Shallow Grave / Corpse Dance the Ooze into play so it has haste.
The Ooze now has kiki-jiki's ability : {T}: Put a token that's a copy of target nonlegendary creature you control onto the battlefield. That token has haste. Sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step.

Make a bunch of tokens by tapping every copy you make using the above ability until you have for example 1 tapped original Ooze, 20 tapped Ooze tokens and 1 untapped ooze token.
All those ooze tokens (and original) have also the activated ability of the Mogg fanatic, so you can deal 20 dmg by just sacrificing the tapped tokens.

Note that this can be disrupted by some spells.
With the devourer/triskelion combo you just keep activating in response.

datanaga

12-05-2010, 06:54 PM

Thanks now I understand.

Karhumies

12-05-2010, 11:16 PM

The deck is pretty matured as it is already. I can't really see much innovation more than this barring a few tweaks here and there in the MD and board. I'm pretty happy with my MD above
Agreed. However:

- - the board has 12/13 card set in stone while the last 2/3 are flexible. - -

I still believe that the Helmline combo is a viable alternative/supplement to SnT-Emrakul. It has more variety in its fundamental turn than SnT = less consistent but potentially faster, as there is no need for a combat phase. Helmline is more suitable against some particular decks which do not have problems with an Emrakul (Humility, Cunning Wish, etc.) or whose MD plan can be disrupted significantly with LotV to buy us the required time to combo before getting killed when on the draw (Dredge, some Survival variants, Welder-animator). I do not deny that SnT is better all-around choice to an unknown meta; I just want to emphasize that Helmline may be better in some specific known/predicted metas.

Karhumies

12-05-2010, 11:19 PM

Buried Alive -> ooze, kiki-jiki and random win creature like Mogg Fanatic.
Shallow Grave / Corpse Dance the Ooze into play so it has haste.

Shallow Grave and Corpse Dance both cost more mana than Reanimate. This would probably translate into 1-2 extra turns (on average) before comboing off. Therefore, I consider this option inferior to the Triskelion plan, even though it goes infinite instead of 25-30 damage. We need to be as fast as possible G1, because we may have to be on the draw and we do not want to half-reveal the combo or we can not reasonably try it again in G2 but are forced to go transitional instead.

sclabman

12-05-2010, 11:34 PM

And if you think you won't have enough cmc to shoot at the opponent, board in a singleton emrakul. That will get there every time pretty much guaranteed since emrakul is a 15 drop lol.

As far as I know If you flip Emrakul to the Ooze you have to respond to it with another activation, as upon resolution the ooze will kill itself. Same with any card with CMC>=4.

median

12-06-2010, 12:13 AM

That isn't the case, the part about phyrexian devourer dying when getting too big isn't an activated ability and so is not copied by ooze.

Mark Sun

12-06-2010, 12:36 AM

That isn't the case, the part about phyrexian devourer dying when getting too big isn't an activated ability and so is not copied by ooze.

RTFC (well, Oracle Text, but whatever) please. In the Oracle text it's clearly a clause that's part of the resolution of said activated ability.

sclabman is correct.

I feel like it should be common sense by now for people to know this, as the Ooze combo is a significant part of the metagame.

Windux

12-06-2010, 12:36 AM

That isn't the case, the part about phyrexian devourer dying when getting too big isn't an activated ability and so is not copied by ooze.

It IS the case, the part IS part about the activated ability:
Oracle-Text
"When Phyrexian Devourer's power is 7 or greater, sacrifice it.

Exile the top card of your library: Put X +1/+1 counters on Phyrexian Devourer, where X is the exiled card's converted mana cost. If Phyrexian Devourer's power is 7 or greater, sacrifice it."

It says, that it dies TWICE now ;)

You know, Rule #4 of Zombieland? Double Tap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PapZO7NXB3Q)

rufus

12-06-2010, 01:52 AM

As far as I know If you flip Emrakul to the Ooze you have to respond to it with another activation, as upon resolution the ooze will kill itself. Same with any card with CMC>=4.

Moreover, Emrakul goes to exile not the gy, so there's no reshuffle trigger.

...

More on topic: Are there other combos that will happily share a deck with non-survival ooze the same way that Emrakul does?

blaat

12-06-2010, 08:54 AM

More on topic: Are there other combos that will happily share a deck with non-survival ooze the same way that Emrakul does?

Well I've tried a few things, but I guess SnT-Emrakul is still the best option.

- Doomsday into emrakul or random storm piles that don't need a lot of main deck cards.
All-in option, tutor able with Personal Tutor.
You probably need a untap effect for Shelldock to not lose, like cloud of faeries/twiddle and pray they don't stifle/wasteland etc.

- Kiki-jiki & Ooze
Slower and more vulnerable than the normal Ooze combo.
Is infinite, but this isn't relevant compared to the normal ooze combo.

- Helm-leyline
Nice, but you need to have leyline in your openings hand, as I don't see how you would cast 2x cmc4 and activate helm and not lose by that time.

- Reanimator
Needs more (too much) cards like entomb, fatties and suffers from G2 grave hate too.
Did I forget mystical tutor?

- Hive Mind / pact
CMC 6 and the need of a random pact can be tough without tutor, but LDV can be of some good use.
You can cheat in into play, but most times you're better off cheating emrakul into play.

So unless someone proves me wrong, I have to agree there isn't anything better right now than the SnT-Emrakul plan.
Unless you Double Tap your opponent G2 and get away with it, because he was a pain in the ass about the interaction with Ooze and Devourer earlier in the game and you were looking a bit too long at Necrotic Ooze's art while waiting for the judge and something just snapped inside of you.
Now this transformational thinking can work, but be sure to check your local law enforcement for the correct rulings on this felony.

Volrath

12-06-2010, 10:38 AM

Ok, guys what about Inquisition of Kozilek instead of thoughtseize?.
I know its worste vs combo, it isn't it better against everything else?.

jamis

12-06-2010, 11:40 AM

You need to be able to take Force of Will. Besides the life loss isn't really a big deal.

Volrath

12-06-2010, 12:14 PM

You need to be able to take Force of Will. Besides the life loss isn't really a big deal.

D'oh!

A lack of sleep really results in not being able to see the obvious..

median

12-06-2010, 03:29 PM

Has burning wish been tried? I would much rather have that than 4x personal tutor.

jamis

12-06-2010, 06:50 PM

- Doomsday into ... random storm piles that don't need a lot of main deck cards.
I'd be interested in testing this. Something like

4 Doomsday
4 LED
4 SDT
1 Meditate
1 IGG
1 Tendrils

IGG is still hit by graveyard hate, but you can make a non-IGG pile, and have access to IGG if your opponent doesn't draw the hate card. S&T is still probably better, but I'll probably give this some testing and see if it can hold up.

A problem with the idea though is that, at least at my LGS, people sometimes board in Ethersworn Cannonist to try to slow you down. Going a storm route could be a problem if people keep doing this.

Has burning wish been tried? I would much rather have that than 4x personal tutor.
I guess it could at least warrant testing, but blue is the much better splash than red, and I don't see a point in going three-colored. Wish also messes with the idea of using a Transformational sideboard.

GGoober

12-06-2010, 07:10 PM

Hmm thinking of BWish, this maybe an interesting diversification of the MD (Not that I think it's a good one, but food for thought)

3-4 BWish
Thoughtseize, FoW, Daze etc
4 Emrakul
3 Show and Tell
Lim Dul Vaults, Brainstorms
Dark Ritual, 3 Buried Alive, Reanimate
Ooze Package
1 MD Shelldock

So Wish could go grab a Doomsday or Buried Alive or Show and Tell.

Seems like a terrible deck though due to dead slots, but people run 4 Emrakuls, 4 SnT anyway because they win games despite the dead slots. This would involve squeezing in 3-4 BWish, 4 Emrakul, 3 SnT, 1 Shelldock for it to work. Probably not worth it IMO but if someone can come up with a resilient list, it'll have both SnT and reanimating package or a Shelldock strategy if the pieces fit in nicely. My guess would it would be clunky. Let me try a list in 20s

Lands: 17
1 Shelldock Isle
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarns
4 Underground Sea
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island

3 Emrakul
3 Show and Tell
3 Burning Wish
3 Buried Alive
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
3 Reanimate
2 Exhume

4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize

4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Lim-Dul's Vault

Wishboard:
1 Doomsday (Shelldrazi combo)
1 Show and Tell
1 Reanimate/Exhume
1 Buried Alive
xx REBs (yaay! lol)

Seems clunky :/

Windux

12-07-2010, 12:55 AM

I would'nt pack in all SnT and all Emrakuls.
I would try a list list this:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [GUR] Swamp
1 [GUR] Island
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Badlands
4 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
1 [AL] Phyrexian Devourer
1 [TO] Aquamoeba
1 [M11] Triskelion
1 [SOM] Necrotic Ooze
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
3 [OD] Buried Alive
4 [TE] Reanimate
2 [US] Exhume
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3/4 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
2 [PT] Personal Tutor
1/2 [M10] Ponder
1 [US] Show and Tell
3 [JU] Burning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OD] Buried Alive
SB: 1 [US] Exhume
SB: 3 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 1 [CNF] Progenitus
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [M11] Duress
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

You lose 2 SPell Pierce
- 2 Counters less in the deck.

You gain: Burning Wish
- A non-lifeloss, non-ontop tutor. It searches EVERY part of the combo: Buried Alive, as well as an Reanimnate spell.
Due to it's cc2 costs, maybe we should play a MD 3 Reanimate/3 Exhume split, to be able to get Reanimate out of the sideboard, so that B.Wish->Reanimate just coists 1RB instead of 2RB.

You gain: 1 Emrakul, 1 Show and Tell
- Due the Personal Tutor AND Burning Wish, you should be able to get the Show and Tell out of your deck, if you have Emrakul. Also LDV can get it randomly, while you are searching for reanimate-pieces (I don't think you should use LDV to find the 1-off SnT, but to find BWish or if you have time: Personal Tutor).
To get Emrakul could be a little bit more harsh. Maybe here, we could squeeze in 1-2 more.

You gain: Virtually 9 Discard-Spells
- 4 Thoughtseize + the ability to tutor via Personal AND B.Wish for Duress may be a hugh advantage.

Just my 2 cents about B.Wish.

Karhumies

12-07-2010, 07:15 AM

Ok, guys what about Inquisition of Kozilek instead of thoughtseize?.
I know its worste vs combo, it isn't it better against everything else?.

Duress/Thoughtseize/Inquisition: Thoughtseize is the best for us, and should be an automatic 4-of in MD. However, you may want to supplement them with SB discard. Quick analysis to follow.

Inquisition of Kozilek vs Duress as 2-3x SB supplement to the 4x Thoughtseize in MD:

Problematic cc3- non-creatures hit by both:
Discard: Duress/Cabal Therapy/Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize/Hymn to Tourach etc.
Counter: Daze/Counterspell/Spell Pierce etc.
Stifle
Extirpate
Reanimation
Oblivion Ring
etc.

Problematic, widely played cc3 and less creatures in Legacy meta:
Ethersworn Canonist - we don't care
Gaddock Teeg - we don't care
Dark Confidant - too slow for us to care + life loss helps us
Phyrexian Dreadnought - we don't usually care
Goblin Lackey - debatable
Painter's Servant / Imperial Recruiter - debatable
Aluren creatures - debatable, except that Man-o-war ruins Emrakul plan
Peacekeeper - they should have SB'd it out after G1 Ooze win
Tidehollow Sculler - problematic

Problematic, widely played cc4 and above non-creatures in Legacy meta:
Natural Order - problematic
Force of Will - problematic
Aluren - problematic
Ad Nauseam - problematic
Dream Halls - bad if they get it from OUR SnT
Jace, TMS - ruins Emrakul plan
Humility - ruins Emrakul plan
Ensnaring Bridge - ruins Emrakul plan

Thus,
1. Thoughtseize - MD
2. Duress - SB
3. Inquisition of Kozilek

Are there other combos that will happily share a deck with non-survival ooze the same way that Emrakul does?

See: List of compact combos (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?8460-List-of-Compact-Combos)

Painter's Servant + Grindstone is one of the most potent choices, but we are not running white for E.Tutor. We could run it with Blue Elemental Blasts as a supplement, though, which would make it better for TES- and Goblin-heavy meta. Adding a third color (red for REB and Imperial Recruiter or white for E.Tutor) makes us lose more often to non-basic land hate, which is a debatable choice heavily dependant on your meta.

Mana Severance + Goblin Charbelcher is also an option as Severance is a sorcery (P.Tutor) and blue (FoW), but it's more mana intensive than SnT-Emrakul. Also, we are (usually) required to play Charbelcher first (4 mana), then next turn Severance + activate (5 mana). Helmline seems better than this, as you can sometimes have LotV in opening hand (0 mana, otherwise 4 mana) after which you just need Helm + activation (5 mana).

Helmline is still my favorite alternative choice, because when you drop T0 LotV, the opponent might just think that you SB'd badly and laugh at your poor tech without actually destroying the Leyline. When you drop Charbelcher or Painter's Servant, however, the opponent immediately knows they are win conditions and should be removed ASAP.

I would'nt pack in all SnT and all Emrakuls.
I would try a list list this:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

You may be on to something here, my friend. I believe you need 1-2 more basic lands in your list (+1 Swamp to cast cc3 without nonbasics, maybe +1 Mountain to cast B.Wish without nonbasics and BA+Reanimate on same turn without nonbasics). One big question, though: what will your deck list look like after SB? = What will B.Wish grab after SB? 1x SnT?

Karhumies

12-07-2010, 08:05 AM

Brief analysis of the SB SnT-Emrakul plan:

+++ Requires only 3 mana
+++ Requires only 2 cards to combo (SnT+creature) = leaves some SB slots for additional protection
+++ Plan hidden until you cast SnT (excl. possible P.Tutor)
+++ Dodges the opponent's SB GY hate (almost) completely
++ You can play around most Emrakul hate by using 1x Progenitus in SB as alternative target
+ You can also use optional meta-specific targets, such as 1xIona

--- Without mana accel. you will combo T3, meaning that your fundamental turn is T4 (combat phase) when on the draw - which is one turn too slow vs. combo
-- We are almost a goldfish for those 4 turns
- Opponent can put something into play from your SnT - has been irrelevant 75+% of the time
- Requires a combat step
- Casting cost 2U = D.Rit does not help that much

It takes good mulliganing skills and better SB protection cards than the Daze found in earlier lists to prevent your opponent from killing you in 4 turns from the play, so that you get to actually attack with the Emrakul ftw. Or alternatively, you may wish to SB Moxes/Spirit Guides to cast SnT sooner so that your opponent will have less turns to set up a kill against you. Or alternatively, you could try giving Emrakul haste somehow.

What I am trying to say, is that we need to focus our efforts on improving our chances of not getting killed in the first 4 turns when G2 on the draw. This can be done by:
-Preventing our opponent from killing us (Duress, Spell Pierce, etc.)
-Improving our fundamental turn by 0.5 - 1 (more mana accel/giving Emrakul haste/finding a faster combo)

Here's some numerical analysis I added to my tournament report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19411-Finnish-Legacy-Champs-Necrotic-Ooze):
G1 win% 71,4% -can be improved by making less play mistakes
Ooze plan win% (G1/G2, when combo unknown by opponent) 77,8% -can be improved by winning the die roll more often :P
---------------------------------
Transitional plan win% (G2/G3, transition unknown by opponent) 71,4% -can be improved by improving sideboard card quality (Daze out!)
---------------------------------
Ooze plan win% (G3, combo known by opponent) 0% -figure expected to have huge variation based on MU, opponent's SB, opposing mulligans and opening hands for both players. improved by making individual SB choices (non-transitional hate cards).

Windux

12-07-2010, 02:08 PM

You may be on to something here, my friend. I believe you need 1-2 more basic lands in your list (+1 Swamp to cast cc3 without nonbasics, maybe +1 Mountain to cast B.Wish without nonbasics and BA+Reanimate on same turn without nonbasics). One big question, though: what will your deck list look like after SB? = What will B.Wish grab after SB? 1x SnT?

// Creatures
1 [AL] Phyrexian Devourer
1 [TO] Aquamoeba
1 [M11] Triskelion
1 [SOM] Necrotic Ooze
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
3 [OD] Buried Alive
4 [TE] Reanimate
2 [US] Exhume
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3/4 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
2 [PT] Personal Tutor
1/2 [M10] Ponder
1 [US] Show and Tell
3 [JU] Burning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [OD] Buried Alive
SB: 1 [US] Exhume
SB: 3 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 1 [CNF] Progenitus
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [M11] Duress
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

+ 3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
+ 1 Progenitus
+ 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
+ 2 Show and Tell
= 7 Slots instead of 10 = +3 Maindeck slots.

would be the universal SB Plan to the transformation-Plan.
Depended on the opponent +2 Duress, +1 Echoing Truth, +2 Extirpate/Spell Pierce (meta-gaming).

- 2 [OD] Buried Alive
- 3 [TE] Reanimate
- 2 [US] Exhume

= 7 Slots.

Thios would leave us the option to do BOTH: Emrakul OR Ooze

1 Buried Alive + 2 Personal Tutor + 3 Burning Wish + 3/4 LDV = 9/10 Options (-1 Option if you searched it via Tutor = 8/9)
1 Reanimate + 2 Personal Tutor + 3 Burning Wish + 3/4 LDV = 9/10 Options (-1 Option if you searched it via Tutor = 8/9)

This makes the Ooze-Combo much slower than G1, but you are still able to win.
This may be relevant, if our opponent knows the sideboard-plan: Moat, Peacekeeper for example.

I would'nt add a singleton Mountain. It's a death-draw too often. Furthermore, I would play the second Island, because all of your tutors are blue, to setup the combo. You won't (mostly) be able to play Buried Alive + Reanimate only because you played 2 Swamps. That's only the case, if you play it in the same turn. This may be possible if: You play a Dark Ritual or via Lotus Petal acceleration. In the case you play it due the 4 lands...you are usually death.

rufus

12-07-2010, 02:22 PM

Getting :w: will shoot the manabase to crud, but you can almost transform to servant grindstone.

-2 Personal Tutor
-4 Buried Alive
-2 Exhume
-1 Triskelion
-1 Phyrexian Devourer
-1 Aquamoeba
-1 Necrotic Oooze

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone

Karhumies

12-07-2010, 08:40 PM

... In the case you play it due the 4 lands...you are usually death.

I played vs Dragon Stompy and Countertop-sword decks in the last tournament. Would have lost at least one game in each of those matches were it not for the 4 basics + large amount of fetches we run in this deck. Their clock is definitely not T4; it's supposed to be the turn they mana denial us or set up countertop, respectively. At least in the Finnish meta, I can not recommend any one to cut back on the amount of basics they run. Things may be different somewhere else in the world, though.

Karhumies

12-07-2010, 09:09 PM

Getting :w: will shoot the manabase to crud, but you can almost transform to servant grindstone.

Some other tutor options for alternative builds include
- Trinket Mage (Grindstone only) -no 3rd color required for manabase but leaves the deck to rely on LDV for Servant
- Grim Tutor / Beseech the Queen (Servant/Grindstone) -very slow, except if you D.Rit them early
- Living Wish (Painter's Servant/Emrakul/Ooze/Dark Depths/Vampire Hexmage) -any Marit Lage transitional SB would need to have a lot of protection vs creature removal, though.

dahcmai

12-07-2010, 11:32 PM

Would it be worth running Putrid Imp instead of Aquamoeba since it's black and can be hard casted with more mana left over? The p/t switch can be useful, but for the most part I don't see the point. I have ran into Zoo a few times and no matter how many Lightning Bolts they sat on, it didn't matter. I found that I want this guy in the deck just because it's 1 mana less and that comes up more often than a toughness problem.

ivanpei

12-07-2010, 11:34 PM

So far I'm prefering the SB show and tell plan. Has been working well for me. Lotus petal and dark ritual help power it out T2, but you are usually cantripping/tutoring to T2 so T3 is more likely. That's why I played daze in the board to slow down fast aggro. You can ignore the missed drop because you usually need 2 lands + petal/ritual to combo off. However daze is not as good vs blue decks. It's somewhat of a trade off. Spellpierce and duress don't hurt a turn 1 kitty/lackey while daze is much better against those.

As for burning wish: Seems good vs blue, not losing a card to personal tutor is important. A bit slow against non-blue and makes the deck 3 coloured. Could be a good solution is a heavy blue meta.

Alternative combos: Helm leyline and painter servant seems the best. These are worth testing but your personal tutor's will be pretty crappy post board.

Karhumies

12-08-2010, 11:15 PM

... Spellpierce and duress don't hurt a turn 1 kitty/lackey while daze is much better against those.

Assuming that we have just won with the Ooze plan = we are on the draw, Daze is also useless if they start with T1 land-> kitty/lackey/vial/cursecatcher/duress, go. Following this up with Daze on opponent's T2 by bouncing our only land drop only makes it worse, since we lose so much tempo. For blue decks, it has been quite popular strategy (at least around here) to SB Daze out when on the draw and SB them back in when once again on the play. Therefore, it is counterintuitive to do the opposite.

IMO, most of the time casting Daze with alternate cost on the draw is the same as Time Walk for the opponent, as 1 mana less = 1 turn later for SnT (usually). I would go as far as to state that Force Spike is a better card for this deck's SB than Daze (supposing that Spell Pierce is a too narrow answer for a specific meta).

Would it be worth running Putrid Imp instead of Aquamoeba since it's black and can be hard casted with more mana left over? The p/t switch can be useful, but for the most part I don't see the point.
For a 1-of, it does not really matter that much which one you use. Aquamoeba is a blue card for FoW, can maybe 1% of the time switch power/toughness for 9 extra damage from 3x BA, costs 1 mana more to cast than Imp. While Imp is a good answer to T1 Lackey, I'd guess that around 95% of the time we don't cast Aquamoeba or Putrid Imp, regardless of which one we have in hand, because we have better and more relevant stuff to cast instead which fasten our combo. As for me, I don't own any PImps and my local retailer has been out of stock for months, as it is a good dredge card. Aquamoeba, on the other hand...lots of extra in stock, so I bought a playset for less than 1 euro. Just because. :P

Personally, I prefer to brainstorm the Aquamoeba back into the deck to make sure that I can choose it with Buried Alive in case I draw another one of the creatures, so that I save the mana otherwise required for hardcasting the 'moeba after/before BA. Generally speaking, we do not care about blockers, our life total or combat tricks when on the Ooze plan, because we can fnish off the opponent in one go. As long as we have 1 life left, it's good enough. 1 creature hardly makes much difference in that sense.

jamis

12-09-2010, 01:54 PM

Thus,
1. Thoughtseize - MD
2. Duress - SB
3. Inquisition of Kozilek
I disagree here. Thoughtseize is definitely best, but if you are including supplementary discard in the board, you want IoK. The only reason you would need additional discard is to deal with the two pieces of hate that counterspells can't hit: Extirpate and Faerie Macabre. Both grab Extirpate, but only IoK can hit Faerie Macabre.

blaat

12-09-2010, 06:19 PM

I disagree here. Thoughtseize is definitely best, but if you are including supplementary discard in the board, you want IoK. The only reason you would need additional discard is to deal with the two pieces of hate that counterspells can't hit: Extirpate and Faerie Macabre. Both grab Extirpate, but only IoK can hit Faerie Macabre.

This is a meta call I think.
IoK can really shine if you expect Macabre, know this will be played by friends or previous tournament knowledge.

But going in blind, it's nothing more than choose what you fear most expect most.
FoW is one of those cards that you will see in a lot of match-ups, thus you want to be able to ditch that one asap.
IoK can't do this unfortunately and because of that Duress > IoK.

Other point, if you play the combo G2 (or fear main-deck Macabre or something), why don't look at pithing needle?
Stops most graveyard hate including Macabre, except extirpate (but we have the discard spells for this).
Also grabs SotF by it's balls for a few turn probably (and of course other cards that disrupt or deck or make your opponents deck as fast as ours).

Karhumies

12-09-2010, 07:55 PM

FoW is one of those cards that you will see in a lot of match-ups, thus you want to be able to ditch that one asap.
IoK can't do this unfortunately and because of that Duress > IoK.

Other point, if you play the combo G2 (or fear main-deck Macabre or something), why don't look at pithing needle?

This. I want to discard my opponent's counters before going off, and the most commonly played counter is FoW. Furthermore, assuming that I will transition into Emrakul plan after SB, I don't care about opposing Macabre: it's a cc3 2/2 flier that's bound to be annihilated. If you wish to stick to the Ooze plan after SB and are afraid of activated abilities hitting your GY, you should rather take a look at Pithing Needle or Stifle than Inquisition of Kozilek, IMO.

During my last tournament, 5 out of 7 opponents played 4 FoW MD without siding them out, whilst as none of them SB'd in Macabre. 3 out of 7 sided in Tormod's Crypt, however (with 1 out of 7 having Ravenous Trap and 1 out of 7 having Leyline of the Void). G2T1 land, Tormod, go -> it doesn't matter whether you have that IoK in your starting hand or not (unless you FoW the Tormod). The problem with fighting gy hate to stick to the Ooze plan in G2 is that you will have to know whether your opponents are likely to play LotV (T0 enchantment), Tormod/Relic (T1-T2 artifact), Faerie Macabre (instant-speed activated ability) or Ravenous Trap (instant to be played after BA). In my meta, people use different hate according to their personal preference, with Macabre being the least favored choice of all because Macabre is worse vs Dredge and Tarmogoyf than most of the other choices. Also, AFAIK, not that many people prefer to add Macabre into a non-black deck like they do with Tormod/Relic.

ivanpei

12-09-2010, 08:24 PM

Karhumies

12-09-2010, 09:45 PM

Quick analysis of various Sb strategies:

SnT-Emrakul Helmline Painterstone Depthsmage

mana req. 2U 0/2BB + 4->1 2 + 1->3 BB + drop D.Depths
cmc 3 9 (or 5) 6 2 + land drop
slow-roll (G2) no yes, always yes, usually possible;undesired
surprise yes semi* no yes
synergy w/MD yes no no no
delay next turn combat - - next turn combat
weak vs Ooze hate Humility P.Needle,LofSanc. P.Needle,LofSanc. P.Needle
ruined w/MD cards JaceTMS,Humility Qasali Qasali,burn/c.rem. Stifle,simult.Waste+Crem,Mom+flyer
other weakness only 15dmg - opp.Emrakul flying blockers
other strength annihilator wins vs inf.life - -
need SB tutors - maybe E. Tutor Living Wish
pieces dead irrelevant semi-useful dead dead

* if oppo does not expect Helm based on LotV

Karhumies

12-09-2010, 10:13 PM

Agreed that Daze is not the ideal "catch all". I was assuming that you lost G2 and had to play a G3 when you can brainstorm/ponder/tutor T1 and Daze at the same time. However forcespike seems so be a pretty useful catch all answer. Any other good catch alls? Pierce is great, I just won't run more than 3. Something along the lines of thoughtseize/force is the best. I'm stumped by this.
Short list of "alternative Force of Wills, although crappier"

Foil
Misdirection
Disrupting Shoal
Commandeer

"alternative Thoughtseize, although crappier"

Unmask
Venarian Glimmer

Other one blue mana variants:

Disrupt
Dispel
Divert
Nix
Piracy Charm
// kills toughness 1 creatures or cantrips
Quicken
// for "haste"
Spell Snare
Spy Network
Stifle
Turn Aside
// for non-SnT SB

Other 1U/XU stuff (still better than Daze when on the draw):

Mana Leak
Condescend
Repeal
Power Sink

ivanpei

12-10-2010, 01:35 AM

Thanks for the list. Off all of those, I like spell snare/forcespike best. Snare seems pretty good right now, being able to catch tarmo/balance/survival early on and not a dead card later in the game. Wonder why I never thought of that before. What are your thoughts on snare? I think it's a pretty good sb card, though not as effective vs gobbos, but still good vs zoo/folk.
EDIT: In my testing vs gobbos, postboard warren weirdings/stingscourgers (if they kept any in) were a problem, so snare might be useful even in this mu.

Mark Sun

12-10-2010, 02:11 AM

I think Helm + Leyline and Painter + Grindstone are the weaker of the two strategies to bring in, it just seems like the sacrifice to play Enlightened Tutor to find combo pieces and the possibility of an opposing Leyline of Sanctity nullifies the potential of these two combos.

Personally I would play the Emrakul plan, it seems to be the strongest. Humility is a obviously going to be a silver bullet against this deck but there should be an Eye of Nowhere somewhere in the 75, as well as some type of bounce (which I'm still trying to fit in and tailor for my own metagame). I'm not that worried about Jace, TMS, as they still have to resolve the thing before using it.

I'm currently torn between using a transformational sideboard (SnT + Emrakul) or the traditional sideboard with additional discard, bounce spells, etc. Also, why did Pact of Negation fall out of favor?

ivanpei

12-10-2010, 02:17 AM

Mark Sun

12-10-2010, 02:32 AM

Pact just isn't flexible enough. It doesn't disrupt your opponent's strategies. It is basically used for the "combo turn" to force buried alive/reanimate through. When you board to emrakul/SNT, you don't win the turn you resolve SNT, so pact is a dead card after board.

Gotcha.

I've been playing around with your MD a little bit, from here (http://tinyurl.com/24jumxu). A change I was trying for the MD (g1) is -4 Thoughtseize, +3 Daze, +1 Eye of Nowhere. I originally wanted these slots to be the Pact of Negation but I understand why they're probably not that useful.

My sideboard right now looks like this:

4 Thoughtseize (Or 3 Daze, 1 Eye of Nowhere depending on where my testing takes me)
3 Duress
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Pithing Needle

I think I'm the only one that plays Landstill in my metagame anyways, so with the unlikelihood of seeing Humility at all, I might shift to the Emrakul plan. The only unfortunate thing is most people have caught the Karakas bug, or have some type of answer for SnT (2 Enchantress players with Oblivion Ring/Lignify, and so forth). The post from Jander a while ago of Hive Mind/Pact of the Titan is oddly an okay choice where I play. Go figure, I guess.

ivanpei

12-10-2010, 03:37 AM

Am I the only one who hates eye. IMO it's a terrible card. If anyone has played it in real life, you will know it's terrible. In ooze combo, you need to cast eye, buried and reanimate on the same turn due to eye being sorcery. That's 6 mana and hard to get to. I prefer other bounce since you can eot bounce, then go off. In show and tell, it doesn't do anything vs jace unless you have duress/counter back up. Its still a 3 for one as you tutor(don't draw a card), bounce and counter. All this is stumped by any counter. I prefer preemptive rather than reactive. Just have to bite the loss if jace lands. Karakas is usually a one off and has to be found. However once it is in play, its hard to answer. Needle/Stifle seems like a good option, or wasteland. Another option is to just go for ooze combo game 3.

pippo84

12-10-2010, 05:05 AM

Karhumies

12-10-2010, 08:35 AM

I think I'm the only one that plays Landstill in my metagame anyways, so with the unlikelihood of seeing Humility at all, I might shift to the Emrakul plan. The only unfortunate thing is most people have caught the Karakas bug, or have some type of answer for SnT (2 Enchantress players with Oblivion Ring/Lignify, and so forth).

If you got the Emrakul early enough, you may be able to answer Oblivion Ring by instant bouncing it at opponent's EOT, after which you get to attack on your turn for annihilator 6 and 15dmg. Karakas is the bigger meta problem, which can be answered by running also Progenitus in the SB. Lignify, even from your SnT, does not affect Emrakul or Progenitus (because they enter play at the same time->illegal target; see comp rules for details) but it will hit Iona on white (if you run it) when Lignify is cast from hand.

The main advantages of non-transformational SB are the possibility to play MD Daze (enough SB space to side it out when on the draw) and Pact of Negation. The SB needs to have an answer to T1 Tormod's Crypt on the draw, though, so I would recommend Pithing Needle (especially if you have Faerie Macabre in meta as well) or Null Rod with some bounce (Wipe Away/Echoing Truth) for Leylines of Void/Sanctity.

The post from Jander a while ago of Hive Mind/Pact of the Titan is oddly an okay choice where I play. Go figure, I guess.
Hive Mind seems heavy to cast, but it could be SnT'd into play...maybe we don't have enough SB slots for that, though.

pippo84

12-11-2010, 09:21 PM

Is anyone trying to fight hate? Just to know..

Has anyone considered running Unmask instead of Thoughtseize? Or together with it? It could help since you can check the opponent's hand when going for the combo without mana requirements..

Mark Sun

12-11-2010, 10:22 PM

If you got the Emrakul early enough, you may be able to answer Oblivion Ring by instant bouncing it at opponent's EOT, after which you get to attack on your turn for annihilator 6 and 15dmg. Karakas is the bigger meta problem, which can be answered by running also Progenitus in the SB. Lignify, even from your SnT, does not affect Emrakul or Progenitus (because they enter play at the same time->illegal target; see comp rules for details) but it will hit Iona on white (if you run it) when Lignify is cast from hand.

The main advantages of non-transformational SB are the possibility to play MD Daze (enough SB space to side it out when on the draw) and Pact of Negation. The SB needs to have an answer to T1 Tormod's Crypt on the draw, though, so I would recommend Pithing Needle (especially if you have Faerie Macabre in meta as well) or Null Rod with some bounce (Wipe Away/Echoing Truth) for Leylines of Void/Sanctity.

I just read the Comprehensive Rules on that, very interesting:

303.4f If an Aura is entering the battlefield under a player’s control by any means other than by resolving as an Aura spell, and the effect putting it onto the battlefield doesn’t specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, that player chooses what it will enchant as the Aura enters the battlefield. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura’s enchant ability and any other applicable effects.

Basically since Emrakul is entering the battlefield at the same time, this trick will not work. I'm assuming if there are no creatures on the battlefield, the Lignify just goes to the graveyard (or if I read this correctly, the Enchantress player will probably Lignify his or her own Argothian Enchantress). I am assuming this is correct based on Section 303.4g.

About having the correct hate, I think the part of my sideboard that I was recommending should be able to answer (most) issues:

3 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Pithing Needle

I think the Hurkyl's Recall is fairly underrated, it allows more time to sculpt a winning hand and can answer multiple artifact hate. I might even consider running Rebuild if Chalice of the Void/Trinisphere somehow shows up in my metagame. Wipe Away is something that I really like, it's probably not needed at the time, as I haven't seen Counterbalance in ages. One other card, for the occasional shrouded / multiple protection problem cards, is possibly Wash Out.

Hive Mind seems heavy to cast, but it could be SnT'd into play...maybe we don't have enough SB slots for that, though.

Yeah, the original idea was a transformation sideboard into Show and Tell + Hive Mind, which circumvents the rare situations where you can't get rid of a Leyline of Sanctity (for example Sterling Grove in Enchantress), or know that you will be staring down Humility, Karakas, etc. It's just an idea, if I get the Pacts I might go this route.

Is anyone trying to fight hate? Just to know..

Has anyone considered running Unmask instead of Thoughtseize? Or together with it? It could help since you can check the opponent's hand when going for the combo without mana requirements..

I don't like the fact that you have to pitch yet another card. This deck just doesn't have enough card advantage to do something like that. The bounce effects I think will be enough. As mentioned above I'm really interested in trying Wash Out, I know it does cost 3U but it should answer any situations where there's multiple hate (double Leyline, Leyline + X, Humility + X, etc). Tutorable by Personal Tutor as well.

ivanpei

12-12-2010, 09:33 PM

If people are going for the "fight the hate" option (I would only advise this if show and tells are not good for your meta if you're facing MD karakas, enchantress etc), I advocate hurkyl's too as Morbid's post above suggests. The most common hate you will find will be crypt/relic/needle. You're own needle solves crypt/relic but not needle. You're null rods don't solve needle too + affect you're petals. What I see most guys commonly play is chain. Chain does not solve multiples. Neither does it solve challice @ 1. Chain is better vs stuff like leylines etc. But those are rarer than crypt/relic/needle in multiples IMO. Almost every deck is packing 3-4 crypts/relics + 3 needles to fight survival in the board. You are looking at 6-7 hate cards coming in and multiples on the board will be very common. I would max out hurkyl's first before playing the chains. My 2 cents.

jamis

12-13-2010, 05:23 PM

To be honest, I haven't been able to find Show and Tells yet, so in events I couldn't borrow them, I've had to do the fight the hate thing (about half the time).

My sideboard has been:

4 Pithing Needle
1 Trickbind
2 Wipe Away
4 Echoing Truth
1 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Duress

Every card is relevant vs. Crypt/Relic. And there is at least 7 cards to fight most other common hate including Counterbalance Top.

Karhumies

12-15-2010, 09:19 AM

I just read the Comprehensive Rules on that, very interesting:

Basically since Emrakul is entering the battlefield at the same time, this trick will not work. I'm assuming if there are no creatures on the battlefield, the Lignify just goes to the graveyard (or if I read this correctly, the Enchantress player will probably Lignify his or her own Argothian Enchantress). I am assuming this is correct based on Section 303.4g.

You should definitely be aware of what your own SnT does and does not allow the opponent to do. As you said, in this situation they will either hit their own Argothian Enchantress (there is no targetting -> Shroud does not help) or if there are none, Lignify goes to gy. Keep in mind that Replenish will still work, though.

As mentioned above I'm really interested in trying Wash Out, I know it does cost 3U but it should answer any situations where there's multiple hate (double Leyline, Leyline + X, Humility + X, etc). Tutorable by Personal Tutor as well.

You want to bounce at opponent's EOT to go off on your turn. If you bounce as a Sorcery, opponent will just play the bounced stuff again on his turn. Also, Wash Out does not hit Pithing Needle @ Necrotic Ooze, Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus.

If people are going for the "fight the hate" option (I would only advise this if show and tells are not good for your meta if you're facing MD karakas, enchantress etc)

Karakas is primarily answered by having Progenitus in the SB-> illegal target.

Enchantress should most of the time be too slow to answer Emrakul even when they are on the play. They are very likely to start the 2nd game with E.Tutor->Wheel of Sun and Moon, giving you practically 2 time walks to work with when transitional. If you tried to fight that hate, though...boy it could be hard with possible Leyline of Sanctity from SB as well, combined with Sterling Groves for shroud and tutor effects. Personally, I prefer transformational here. Regardless of the G2/G3 choice, any counterspells brought in from your SB will go a long way to win the match-up. Thoughtseize etc. are not so good because of their EOT/response E.Tutor and Sterling Grove library manipulation.

Chain does not solve multiples. Neither does it solve challice @ 1. Chain is better vs stuff like leylines etc. But those are rarer than crypt/relic/needle in multiples IMO. Almost every deck is packing 3-4 crypts/relics + 3 needles to fight survival in the board. You are looking at 6-7 hate cards coming in and multiples on the board will be very common. I would max out hurkyl's first before playing the chains. My 2 cents.

This. Valid reasoning, and worth emphasizing on.

To be honest, I haven't been able to find Show and Tells yet, so in events I couldn't borrow them, I've had to do the fight the hate thing (about half the time).

My sideboard has been:

4 Pithing Needle
1 Trickbind
2 Wipe Away
4 Echoing Truth
1 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Duress

I like the 4x Pithing Needle, and having a mix of Echoing Truth and Wipe Away.
Why IoK over Duress? And especially why 1-of Trickbind? I would also play with 4th Thoughtseize main, giving +1 SB slot.

Instead of bounce #5-6, Trickbind (too random as 1-of?) and Thoughtseize, I'd rather have either 4x some kind of counter or 4x Stifle effect (Tormod/Relic/Faerie Macabre, also fetchland).

Like this:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
2 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force Spike/Spell Snare/Spell Pierce/Stifle/Trickbind

By the way, one additional type of fighting the hate is to animate as an instant instead of Exhume. Requires 6 mana in one turn and a very well-sculpted hand, but could be worth a shot. Works through triggered abilities = 1x Tormod or 1x Relic on the stack at instant speed. Basically, running Shallow Grave (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3310) over Exhume does not even take up SB slots.

What I mean is: Buried Alive resolves (Necrotic Ooze on top). Target Necrotic Ooze with Reanimate, opponent responds with Tormod/Crypt, you respond with Shallow Grave. Shallow Grave resolves. Keep activating Ooze as an instant->Tormod/Crypt never resolves and you win the game.

Or you have 5 mana open, play BA, pass the turn and hope that the opponent will activate Tormod/Crypt at your EOT to respond with your Shallow Grave.

EDIT: I think I will buy some Shallow Graves and replace my MD Exhumes with them just because I realized this advantage. Ooze will become vulnerable to Trickbind, though (Shallow Grave resolves->Trickbind (Ooze)->end step->Ooze goes to exile), but I am not expecting that card to be played MD.

Karhumies

12-15-2010, 09:35 AM

Accidental double post.

blaat

12-15-2010, 10:45 AM

EDIT: I think I will buy some Shallow Graves and replace my MD Exhumes with them just because I realized this advantage. Ooze will become vulnerable to Trickbind, though (Shallow Grave resolves->Trickbind (Ooze)->end step->Ooze goes to exile), but I am not expecting that card to be played MD.

Seems like a good choice.
Never really seen trickbind in any deck or SB unless dreadnought was involved or the usual cunning wish board.

/off topic
It also has the fun factor of discarding emrakul and in response put it in play with haste, just like Goryo's Vengeance can.
But it's too bad you don't win immidiatly this way, but you gain a good board advantage.
Another use is the previous mentioned addition off kiki-jiki/ooze piles in case you can't shoot their face or need more dmg than your deck can give with devourer combo.

rufus

12-15-2010, 11:38 AM

Seems like a good choice.
Never really seen trickbind in any deck or SB unless dreadnought was involved or the usual cunning wish board.

FWIW, a player holding trickbind can use it to force a self destruct and stop the combo even if the Ooze is more conventionally reanimated. It won't completely shut the combo down, but you'd have to have a pretty spectacular hand to recover in less than two turns.

Anusien

12-15-2010, 12:14 PM

If you are packing Trickbind, you can kill the Ooze with it.

venice

12-15-2010, 01:49 PM

If you are packing Trickbind, you can kill the Ooze with it.

How exactly does Trickbind kill Ooze? I thought Trickbind just buys opponent a turn - but then you can still go off during his/her upkeep.

whienot

12-15-2010, 03:12 PM

You cast Trickbind on an Ooze/Devourer activation after they responded to revealing a card with a cmc of 3+, forcing the Ooze's power to 7 or greater...then boom, self-destruct.

venice

12-15-2010, 03:53 PM

You cast Trickbind on an Ooze/Devourer activation after they responded to revealing a card with a cmc of 3+, forcing the Ooze's power to 7 or greater...then boom, self-destruct.

Ouch! Right, never thought of it that way. Thanks for clearing!

ivanpei

12-15-2010, 07:35 PM

EDIT: -Read the card yeap, trickbind works

Edit: Shallow grave seems strictly better than exhume in our situation. Great find! However, I would play 1 exhume because it's a sorcery that can be found with personal tutor. I've been in situations where I'm too low on life to use reanimate and I personal-tutored for exhume. A 1/1 split of exhume-shallow grave is a marginal improvement but still an improvement.

Zork

12-15-2010, 07:43 PM

Split Second.

Mark Sun

12-16-2010, 12:47 AM

I was hoping to get some more insight on the deck tonight at my local but unfortunately the metagame there looks nothing like the DtB/Established Decks Forum. Let me just say now that Leyline of Sanctity buys them too much time, and compounded with actual graveyard hate, I found myself in situations where I just had to devote too many resources to keeping the hate off the board. I ended up going 2-2, playing against a BW deck with MD Canonist + discard, Stax-ish, BWg rock with MD Extirpate (yeah...), and Enchantress. The sideboard I used today was:

3 Pithing Needle
1 Wash Out
2 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
3 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

There were multiple situations today where I needed to board in two types of hate (Artifact bounce + Wipe Away for Leyline, for example). I will be moving to the Show and Tell plan for sure the next time I play this deck, I almost don't care if they have Karakas or a similar answer, it will have more of a surprise factor post-board, especially when my opponents are punished for mulling into they own hate. But in short, Leyline of Sanctity changes the equation of what we need to do, it adds in multiple turns that we may not have to set up for Ooze. I will be moving out of the Columbus, Ohio area fairly soon, so I'm eager to go into a different metagame.

Jonathan Alexander

12-16-2010, 10:43 AM

If you have problems with Leyline and the like (well, maindecked hate in general), try out the list with Burning Wish. It's very resilient and fun to play. It's also quite nice that it's frequently misleading your opponents to think you're playing storm combo and make the wrong decisions.
By the way, I don't get why you all are playing Aquamoeba. I'm playing Careful Study in its slot and I really like it. I think about adding a random reanimate target like Iona, Shield Of Emeria to the maindeck, but I'm not entirely sure about this. My list also has more cantrips than your lists usually have, and I'm lacking Lim-Dûl's Vault, but I never missed it so far. I might be completely off here, as I'm not playing this deck as much as I play my other deck, but so far this has been working well for me.
This is the list I'm currently playing:

//Lands
1 Badlands
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

//Creatures
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Triskelion

//Other Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Buried Alive
3 Burning Wish
2 Careful Study
4 Dark Ritual
2 Exhume
4 Force Of Will
2 Personal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Reanimate
1 Show And Tell
4 Thoughtseize

//Sideboard
1 Buried Alive
1 Duress
2 Echoing Truth
3 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Exhume
2 Extirpate
2 Pyroblast
3 Show And Tell

My boarding usually is -2 Buried Alive; -3 Reanimate; -2 Exhume; +3 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn; +2 Show And Tell; +2 whatever I need to bring, depending on the matchup.

whienot

12-16-2010, 11:59 AM

Aquamoeba is shenanigans with Necrotic Ooze. It let's you Buried Alive with combo pieces in hand and still win. Reanimate/cast Ooze, discard Trike/Devourer with the 'moeba ability, profit.

Aquamoeba could also be Putrid Imp, but being blue (and therefore FoW fodder) edges it out.

Jonathan Alexander

12-16-2010, 12:13 PM

I do understand what it does, but I don't understand why this is better than Careful Study, which can easily be tutored with Personal Tutor and isn't dead otherwise. I have never been in a situation where I wanted Aquamoeba instead of Careful Study.

whienot

12-16-2010, 12:43 PM

You can't Buried Alive for Careful Study.

Would you rather cast Buried Alive + Reanimate/Exhume and win, or Personal Tutor -> Careful Study (wait a turn), Careful Study, Buried Alive, animate?

Careful Study does not pull it's weight in this deck like it does traditional reanimator. Having to tutor for it to win is pretty terrible.

Jonathan Alexander

12-16-2010, 02:46 PM

But when you're going for Aquamoeba with Buried Alive, you're also going to need another reanimate spell. Careful Study also helps finding missing combo pieces. By the way, I never had to go for Personal Tutor -> Careful Study. And I never needed Aquamoeba either.
This might absolutely be me not having played enough with the deck, but I played quite some matches with it, and for me Careful Study has been superior. Not strictly better though, only slightly superior.

Sims

12-16-2010, 03:39 PM

Mark Sun

12-16-2010, 07:16 PM

I think this was mentioned before, but one reason I wouldn't play without the 1 of Aqua is that getting it into the yard and then using it's ability via Ooze will switch it's PT, and thus allow cards like buried alive to not kill the Ooze while you're comboing off. So you get more damage out of your deck in matchups where you might occasionally need it, or have gone longer than you'd like and might have less cards in your library to work with (i can't think of a realistic situation for this, but you never know)

This is incredibly relevant, actually, and likely another reason that the Show and Tell plan might be favorable post-board instead of fighting hate. What is the acceptable threshold for this deck in terms of Ooze fodder?

I can actually provide an example for a situation where you need to switch P/T. G3 of the Stax deck that I played against last night required a lot of setting up to get the kill in with one turn. He opened with double Leyline of Sanctity, and played Chalice at 1, Humility, and Smokestack went to 2. I was still packing FoW for any GY hate/surprises he had, so I was forced to board out some 1cc and 2cc for Wipe Away and Wash Out. I had to do something along the lines of Buried Alive, pass the turn, EOT LDV, pass the turn, EOT double Wipe Away on Chalice and Smokestack, my turn Wash Out, Exhume. This is not including the setting up that I had to do at the beginning of the match to sculpt my hand, which included hardcasting an Aquamoeba and letting it die to Smokestack (ha!). Basically at the end of it all I was extremely close to not having 20, adding the 9 damage from the other 3 Buried Alive was able to keep me in an acceptable kill range.

median

12-16-2010, 09:41 PM

Regarding the above post, if I'm combing out and I exile a force of will or buried alive what happens? Can I continue without passing priority? Or, have I fizzled? I don't know why I would play this combo if that much of my deck was poison.

ivanpei

12-16-2010, 11:26 PM

Yes you can leave it on the stack (since exiling is part of the cost), and just respond to it before passing priority. Just continue as you do normally. Its typical to run through 3/4 of the deck and hit 5/6 cards above 2cc. Just remember to shoot everytime you get counters before you exile the next card.

Karhumies

12-17-2010, 07:58 AM

I have never been in a situation where I wanted Aquamoeba instead of Careful Study.

I have. It's when you have the kill in hand (BA + animation) but need to pass the turn to get the required land drop, then top deck a combo piece into hand. Aquamoeba saves you a turn in that case (BA for Aquamoeba to discard combo piece). When you play enough games with the deck, it will happen. Besides, Aquamoeba is a 1-of, so it doesn't take too much space from the deck compared to its crucialness in specific situations. Even at its worst, it's nevertheless a blue card for FoW or a 1/3 chump blocker.

While Careful Study allows us to dig the deck, it results in card disadvantage, which is something we don't need any more. Instead of Careful Study, I would recommend first playing 4x Brainstorm (dig 3, card advantage with shuffling effects), then 4x Ponder (dig 3-4, cantrip), then 4x Preordain (dig 2-3, cantrip), and only then consider card disadvantage cards such as Careful Study (dig 2, card disadvantage). Unless you are trying to run Ooze combo as part of a reanimator shell, which is a different case altogether (= you actually benefit from throwing cards into the gy).

pippo84

12-18-2010, 08:38 PM

In my testings I would like to be able to have the Aquamoeba more often in order to use the 3cc drops with the combo, but usually if I have a combo piece in hand I just brainstorm + fetch it away..

Anyways I'm playing Pact of Negation and it's really awsome G1, it saved me really loads of times. I have to say that in G2 it's just a pitch to Force though.. Still unsure of this slot..

I am also testing with 3 City of Traitors. Not sure if the correct numer to play is 2 or 3, but they are awsome! The Cities really give a boost to the deck both pre and post SB.

Karhumies

12-19-2010, 12:05 AM

I am also testing with 3 City of Traitors. Not sure if the correct numer to play is 2 or 3, but they are awsome! The Cities really give a boost to the deck both pre and post SB.

Why not Ancient Tomb?
I can see 2 colorless giving a boost to casting both BA and SnT, but otherwise they don't help. Having multiples (or CofT/AT + Lim-Dul's Vault) in opening hand is especially bad, since we desperately need on-color mana. So far, I've had mixed emotions about colorless mana acceleration. In theory, they could replace the half-useful 1-of fetchlands but in practise, they pull their weight (=speed up the deck) maybe half the time only, and this is done by reducing consistency (=making T2 Lim-Dul casting more difficult).

Karhumies

12-19-2010, 03:20 AM

Just to make sure we are all talking about roughly the same things, here are a few sample deck lists of different B/U Necrotic Ooze builds:

Fully transformational (based on ivanpei's list on page 4):
// Main deck (60)
// Creatures (4)
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Aquamoeba
1 Triskelion
1 Necrotic Ooze
// Win Combo (10)
4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
1 Exhume
1 Shallow Grave
// Tutor & cantrip (14)
4 Brainstorm
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Personal Tutor
4 Ponder
// Protection (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
// Acceleration (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
// Lands (16)
2 Swamp
2 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scalding Tarn

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 Show and Tell
SB: 4 Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 4 META SLOT
// META SLOT eg. 1x Iona, 2x Spell Pierce, 1x Echoing Truth

Semi-transformational (based on jamis's updated opening post dated 21st Nov 2010)
// Main deck (60):
// Creatures (4)
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Aquamoeba
// Win Combo (10)
4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
1 Exhume
1 Shallow Grave
// Tutor & cantrip (12)
4 Personal Tutor
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
// Protection (11)
3 Thoughtseize
4 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
// Acceleration (8)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
// Land (15)
2 Swamp
2 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs

// Sideboard (15):
1 Blazing Archon
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Show and Tell
4 Wipe Away
4 Echoing Truth

Non-transformational sideboard (MD same as previous) (based on jamis's SB list on page 7)

// Sideboard (15)
4 Pithing Needle
3 Duress
2 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth
4 META SLOT
// META SLOT e.g. 4xStifle, some other options: Force Spike/Spell Snare/Spell Pierce/Trickbind

Unconventional manabase builds:

:r: for a hybrid MD list (suggested by Windux on page 6 & further developed by Jona on page 7)
MD Burning Wish with Emrakul & SB wishboard
-Shows promise, although manabase somewhat weaker to non-basic hate. (Basically LDV replaced by B.Wish, with 1x SnT and 1x Emrakul fitted into MD with some minor changes to create wishboard.)

Sample list (based on Jona's list on page 7):
// Main Deck (60)
//Creatures (5)
1 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Triskelion
1 Aquamoeba
// Win Combo (10)
4 Reanimate
1 Exhume
1 Shallow Grave
3 Buried Alive
1 Show And Tell
// Tutor & cantrip (14)
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
2 Personal Tutor
4 Ponder
// Protection (8)
4 Force Of Will
4 Thoughtseize
// Acceleration (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
// Lands (15)
1 Island
2 Swamp
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn

// Sideboard (15)
3 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
3 Show And Tell
1 Buried Alive
1 Exhume
1 Duress
2 Echoing Truth
2 Extirpate
2 Pyroblast

:w: for alternative transformational SB (as suggested by Karhumies on page 4 & somewhat developed by rufus on page 6)
SB E.Tutor and Helm-line or Painter-servant instead of SnT-Emrakul
-Seems strictly worse than SnT-Emrakul, although may be viable in anti-Emrakul meta

// Helm-Line sideboard with extra SnT (15) (by Karhumies)
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Show and Tell
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn

// Painter-Servant Sideboard (15) (by rufus on page 6)
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
3 ???

:g: to improve non-transformational lists (not discussed previously)
improve the success of fighting opposing gy hate by MD/SB Pernicious Deed/Maelstrom Pulse/Back to Nature/Krosan Grip
-Seems worse than transformational SB plan or wishboard, but may help people without access to Show and Tells

:2: to fasten the combo (as suggested by pippo84 on page 8)
MD City of Traitors or Ancient Tomb
-Double-edged sword: potentially faster, but less consistent. Makes LDV worse.

Karhumies

12-19-2010, 03:36 AM

Burning Wish vs. Lim-Dul's Vault:

Burning Wish reveals your plan like P. Tutor does, LDV doesn't.
Burning Wish has more limited choices (Sorcery).
Burning Wish requires :r: mana.
Burning Wish puts card into hand, making it prone for opposing discard effects.
Burning Wish can find a Duress into hand on T2/T3 to set up the combo protected on T4. This is luck-dependant with LDV, as Thoughtseize + combo piece would need to be in the same pile.
LDV causes life loss (usually irrelevant, because you will try to go off the next turn anyway).
LDV causes card disadvantage, B.Wish doesn't. Card disadvantage piles up in a longer game.
LDV can be casted on opponent's end step (leaving your mana open for opponent's turn to protect combo pieces with Brainstorm), B.Wish can't.
LDV has more colored mana in its casting cost, making it more difficult to run Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors in the same deck than with B.Wish.

Personally, I prefer LDV over B.Wish, mostly because it keeps the plan hidden for 1 extra turn. I have found out this to be crucial for how my opponent plays (= doesn't expect me to insta-win G1). I may try supplementing the playset of LDVs with extra B.Wishes as LDV #5-6 in the future, though. B.Wish can be especially useful after sideboarding (keeping both options open), which could hopefully push up our match win %.

EDIT: To sum up my thoughts, I believe that B. Wishes should first replace the P.Tutors rather than LDVs. Additional Wishes could then replace Ponder #4 and/or LDV #4, if necessary.

Jonathan Alexander

12-19-2010, 05:17 AM

Karhumies

12-19-2010, 05:53 AM

I agree on most of your points, but I often win off of Burning Wish the turn I cast it, because of the number of mana acceleration we have. Also note that you're often going to cast both, Buried Alive and your reanimate-spell on the same turn, that means that you usually already have one piece of the combo in hand. Therefore it doesn't really count that it makes you susceptible to discard.
Which turn is this likely to be?
B.Wish + BA + Reanimate = 6 mana
With LDV build instead of B.Wish, I usually have the kill on T3 unprotected or T4 with protection. T2 LDV goes a long way in setting up a T3 combo (accel/missing piece), but I don't feel that the similar cmc B.Wish fulfills a similar role in the deck. And we don't have that many cc2 cards anyway, so why exactly are we dropping cc2 cards for B.Wish?

I also think that replacing Lim-Dûl's Vault with Burning Wish is the right thing to do, it improves your sideboarding a lot, since, combined with Personal Tutor, you have up to seven ways postboard to find each piece of your main combo, depending on the number of Burning Wishes you're running. Sure, you have a harder time finding Emrakul, The Aeons Torn without Lim-Dûl's Vault, but for this purpose my list has 10 cantrips.

My list was also running 10 cantrips, but I still needed the LDV to find Emrakul reliably...I will need to playtest more with B.Wish to have a more educated opinion on what it should replace in the deck list. I think the biggest difference is that when you SB less cards with B.Wish and the wishboard, you don't 100% HAVE TO find Emrakul in G2/G3, because you can sometimes also go the Ooze route. Nevertheless, the extra SB slots (REB/META SLOT) gained because of B.Wish are a definite plus for the deck. We should try to find something even more useful in there (Sorcery target for B.Wish?) to get extra value.

Karhumies

12-19-2010, 06:24 AM

Potential wishboard cards:

Stronghold Gambit
// Idea taken from Sneak Attack SnT thread - works with Emrakul against non-creature decks or after Thoughtseizing opposing creatures away

Meltdown
// Or any other artifact destruction card to fight gy hate

Rolling Earthquake
// or any other form of low mana mass (token) removal

Sinkhole
// just tossing this idea out there for Karakas-heavy metas

pippo84

12-20-2010, 05:24 AM

Can we please change the deck name? Non-Survival is just legacy now..

Anyways, with the ban of survival there may be less GY hate for this deck. (especially some people I saw with MD Extirpate!!)

Karhumies

12-20-2010, 05:47 AM

Can we please change the deck name? Non-Survival is just legacy now..

Anyways, with the ban of survival there may be less GY hate for this deck. (especially some people I saw with MD Extirpate!!)

I suggest O&T = "Ooze & Tentacles".

The change won't be effective until January, though, so let's not get too much ahead of ourselves.

EDIT: The metagame change is likely to favor us initially (dominated by Merfolk, TES and random aggro decks?), but CounterTop and Dreadstill (with MD Trickbind!) may eventually return in greater numbers. I expect especially Bant CounterTop and UW Tempo decks to have good MUs vs much of what will remain of the competitive field.

Dzra

12-20-2010, 12:41 PM

Sims

12-20-2010, 12:58 PM

What about the name "Ooze Your Daddy?" ;)

But really, this deck is probably going to have a field day once the banning is effective. Its biggest weakness is not having a good or having a shaky SBing plan. Is it really better to go the Show and Tell route or would hate resilience be a better option? In the coming meta, you have to expect more Counters, Red Elemental Blasts, Gaddock Teegs, and various hand disruption than any GY hate (at least at first). Even if someone knows of this deck, who is going to SB GY hate for such a rogue deck right off the bat? People will be boarding generic combo hate, which hits Show and Tell just as hard as it does the Ooze combo.

Well, keep in mind Dredge is still a deck even if it's not putting up high numbers. People are always going to be afraid to get caught with their pants down against graveyard strategies..

I would still expect that people will be packing some variety of grave hate and think SnT, even if Counterbalance and Fish make their expected huge resurgence, is probably still the best board plan.

Karhumies

12-20-2010, 05:32 PM

@ recent discussion: I will be testing the B.Wish plan of leaving both options open after SB. Also, our biggest(?) archenemy CounterTop would indeed become an easier MU with a few Red Elemental Blasts post-board. Alternatively, you may keep the deck U/B and focus your SB more on fighting the new local DTB with only semi-transformation into Emrakul.

This may sound odd to some, but I actually consider running Peacekeeper/E.Canonist/Echoing Truth/Extirpate in my local meta after the Survival ban, because I know some local Survival players will go back to their original TES, Dredge and Belcher.

rufus

12-20-2010, 07:34 PM

Dzra

12-20-2010, 08:01 PM

Seems like "Ooze Combo" or "Buried Alive Combo" would be the most obvious choices.

By most obvious, you must be refering to "most boring"? ;p

Pastorofmuppets

12-20-2010, 09:49 PM

I'm building a control-ish deck that opts for Ooze as one of its wincons.
So, instead of using Devourer-Trike, I'm using Kiki-Jiki and Death Cultist along with Shallow Grave/Corpse Dance.
Thoughts?

rufus

12-20-2010, 10:24 PM

I'm building a control-ish deck that opts for Ooze as one of its wincons.
So, instead of using Devourer-Trike, I'm using Kiki-Jiki and Death Cultist along with Shallow Grave/Corpse Dance.
Thoughts?

Is there a compelling reason to use Ooze over something like Servant/Grindstone that isn't GY dependent.

Dzra

12-20-2010, 10:57 PM

I think the appeal of Ooze is that its faster to set up and once Ooze is in play the only thing that can stop it is Extirpate (there's a couple other Split Second cards that could as well, but they rarely see play). You can respond to Grindstone going off with any artifact or creature removal and disrupt the combo.

Pastorofmuppets

12-20-2010, 11:20 PM

Is there a compelling reason to use Ooze over something like Servant/Grindstone that isn't GY dependent.

It's already running Helm/Line, too.
But Buried Alive lets me tutor up stuff that isn't Ooze, too. I've still got 5 slots to flex around with.

Karhumies

12-21-2010, 03:03 AM

Is there a compelling reason to use Ooze over something like Servant/Grindstone that isn't GY dependent.

If you want to reduce the combo's gy dependency, you can play Shallow Grave instead of Sorcery reanimation, although it costs one mana more than Reanimate. Then a single triggered ability (1x Tormod, 1x Relic, 1x Faerie Macabre, 1x Ravenous Trap or 1x instant fetch Bojuka Bog) is not able to disrupt the combo. Extirpate, Trickbind and Leyline of the Void will then remain your main threats (hopefully these are not played MD in your meta). Servant + Grindstone is more mana intensive (6 mana total vs. Ooze's 4-5) and more easily disrupted (any creature removal in response to Grindstone activation). Check a few pages back in this thread for a shallow combo analysis (Helm-line vs Painter-servant vs SnT-Emrakul) made by me. Basically, dedicated Ooze combo shell beats any of those strategies G1 but success in G2 depends on opposing sideboard. That's why we recommend transformational SB to turn opposing SB gy hate into dead cards. Mulliganing into dead cards G2 is a double-whammy in our favor.

median

12-21-2010, 11:42 PM

Has anyone tried using entomb? I would rather have a turn two Iona than spend turn two casting lim-dul's vault and try to win on turn four. I'm not saying to drop the ooze combo, but the deck already has animates why not throw in 4 entombs and 2 targets?

ivanpei

12-22-2010, 12:25 AM

It's best not to dilute the deck with alternate combos MD. Especialy if both are grave based. After board you'd have a much trickier time transforming into show and tell. Ooze is what I'd play since I believe MD needles and extirpates will be rarer now. Good news for us. :)

Gui

12-22-2010, 07:50 AM

Looking at the new vengevines lists, and considering the techs they are using there, I was wondering if the use of Intuition couldn't help the deck

If you run putrid imps and moebas, which already fix hands with the combo pieces, you can easily use intuition the same way Buried Alive is used, and it would also be a tutor for whatever you need. It could be accelerated by :2: lands and the deck already uses :u: anyways...

Did you guys try it already?

death

12-22-2010, 09:19 AM

Gui

12-22-2010, 10:11 AM

First off, a 3cc tutor in a full combo is just slow, you'd be wasting time and resources just to race aggro decks.

Second, your opponent will simply hand over P. Devourer each time you Intuition which is deadweight without Ooze, Trike and PImp or Moeba in the yard.

Trying to Ponder out that singleton discard outlet and hardcast it is not a good strategy.

Well, of course I was thinking of running a full set of Imps and a few more moebas if it was needed. First turn Imp into second turn Intuition do the job of a Buried Alive. That would be the main reason, although it could be a tutor (not saying it should be, just that it could) With that, you can have virtually 8 Buried

But oh well, I get your point, maybe it's not worth the try...

Windux

12-22-2010, 01:06 PM

Here is my newest List:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
1 [SOM] Swamp (1)
2 [SOM] Island (1)
3 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Badlands

// Creatures
1 [AL] Phyrexian Devourer
1 [TO] Aquamoeba
1 [M11] Triskelion
1 [SOM] Necrotic Ooze
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

// Spells
3 [OD] Buried Alive
3 [TE] Reanimate
3 [US] Exhume / Shallow Grave
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
1 [US] Show and Tell
3 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [LRW] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [OD] Buried Alive
SB: 1 [TE] Reanimate
SB: 3 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [CNF] Progenitus
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [M11] Duress
SB: 1 [CHK] Eye of Nowhere
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor

0 Personal Tutor: Burning Wish and LDV are better tutors, even if they cost cc2.
3 Burning Wish: It puts the card directly to hand. Gives the opportunity to play both: Ooze AND SnT. Also finds answers to hate, without wasting MD Slots.
4 LDV: Siomply the best card. It's even better with 1 Emrakul main.. It's the only card who can garantuee us to find an Emrakul to SnT for it.

Sideboard: Each of the combopieces are Wishable. Reanimate over Exhume due to it's lower cc while wishing for it.
Eye of Nowhere is a good answer against most oif the stuff which annoys us. Chain of Vapor is for siding in.

I was thinking about Doomsday+Shelldock isle, but just wasted the idea due to the slots, I would have to get free.

Karhumies

12-22-2010, 06:19 PM

Here is my newest List:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

Dang! Except for very small changes in the manabase, you have arrived at the same MD list as what I have been goldfishing with for a few days. I'd like to know your logic for 2x Island 1x Swamp instead of the other way around, though. I find 2x Swamp to be more useful vs Moon effects. It also allows BB from basics for hardcasting Ooze, although this should be negligible (such a rare occasion when you need it & less than 4 basics total anyway in list). Is it all because of 1x Eye of Nowhere?

Otherwise, I'd suggest
- 3x "half-relevant" fetch (Verdant Catacombs, Marsh Flats & Misty Rainforest)
+1x Scalding Tarn
+2x Bloodstained Mire

So you can find U mana with BR fetch (Volcanic Island) and B mana with UR fetch (Badlands). This is relevant with some opening hands, even when R production is irrelevant (e.g. G2 Swamp, BR fetch, D.Rit, SnT, Emrakul, 2 irrelevant). Even if your first R dual gets destroyed, you still have a second one in the MD so it should be OK to fetch one early if it is required by gamestate.

Despite MD success, I had been struggling with my SB, as I felt that Extirpate and REB (from Jona's list) would become (close to) irrelevant in January. I can agree with most of your list, but I'd like to know your opinion on why 1x Chain of Vapor (instead of other bounce), and whether B.Wish -> Eye of Nowhere can actually pull off its weight? Should counterbalance make a comeback, I'd rather have 2x Wipe Away there (with 2x Island 1x Swamp MD). Otherwise I'd go for 2x Echoing Truth (with 2xSwamp 1x Island MD) to fight off Empty the Warrens / Bridge from Below tokens.

death

12-22-2010, 11:11 PM

0 Personal Tutor
3 Burning Wish puts the card directly to hand.

On turn 1, you can Personal Tutor for a piece against non-blue or wait turn 2 to protect it from daze. The tutored card sits safely on top of the library from discard. Burning wish is costlier, even with its card advantage, I don't see any other advantage when most of the time the wish'd card sits on your hand waiting to be therapied because you can't cast it right away without the rituals.

Windux

12-23-2010, 12:31 AM

Eye of Nowhere can be good, if your opponent played Humility (it's played here ;) ).
You can:
Search the Eye and keep it until you can play Reanimate the same turn
or
Cast it and counter the bounced Humility.

I don't know exactly, what will come after January, 1st, but it's better to have a wishable-"random" bounce in the sideboard, than get powned by some random permanent.

Jonathan Alexander

12-23-2010, 04:17 AM

I agree with Windux. Despite not having played the deck much the past few days I also feel that some of my sideboard choices have become unnecessary with the new B&R announcement. I'm definitely going to cut the Extirpates, but I'm not sure about Echoing Truth and Pyroblast. I think I'll keep the former to bring it in against non-blue to bounce their hatepieces end of turn before I'm going off. The latter might be replaced with Spell Pierces, which are also good against storm combo since they help us defending against their disruption but also help disrupting them, depending on what you need to do. I think having wishable bounce or some other kind of disruption would be quite good, I also thought about adding one Bayou or Tropical Island to run Reverent Silence, but I don't think it's worth it.
I also came to the conclusion that I'm going to cut Personal Tutor for Lim-Dûls Vault (I know I said before that I'd rather play with Personal Tutor, but right now I think Lim-Dûls Vault is just more versatile and versatility is king). My new list is almost the same as Windux' but I maxed out on Ponder istead of Lim-Dûls Vault and have a different split of reanimate-spells (4 Reanimate; 2 Shallow Grave, which is a nice find by the way). My manabase is also slightly different, basically -1 Island and with different fetches. In echxange I run two Careful Studies, but I'm not sure if the second one should be Aquamoeba, I actually had a game where it could have mattered yesterday (I had one Careful Study in hand , but I needed it for Force Of Will so, so it only would've helped me if that had not been Aquamoeba). I think I'm just going to test it a bit more.
We could call the deck Muk strikes back by the way.

Karhumies

12-23-2010, 04:26 AM

On turn 1, you can Personal Tutor for a piece against non-blue or wait turn 2 to protect it from daze. The tutored card sits safely on top of the library from discard. Burning wish is costlier, even with its card advantage, I don't see any other advantage when most of the time the wish'd card sits on your hand waiting to be therapied because you can't cast it right away without the rituals.

Revealing your plan T1 is usually a bad choice, unless you can combo on T2. Otherwise, you will be subject to the same Therapy effects on the next turn as with B.Wish as you described, and on top of that you lost one topdecked card. It's true that B.Wish is worse than P.Tutor on T2 (daze, or Thoughtseize+P.Tutor), but regardless of this LDV is better than both. Based on my goldfishing, switching P.Tutor to B.Wish does not slow down the deck too much G1 to consistently pull off wins. However, blue count going down has sometimes been problematic for FoW (my main use of P.Tutor in G1 with non-red builds has, in reality, been pitching to FoW).

even with its card advantage, I don't see any other advantage
G2 you can sometimes easily generate 5 mana to B.Wish->Show and Tell, in which case P.Tutor would have cost you 1 turn more (and potentially the whole game as well). Other than that,

Eye of Nowhere can be good, if your opponent played Humility (it's played here ;) ).
- -
it's better to have a wishable-"random" bounce in the sideboard, than get powned by some random permanent.

Very, very rarely I have also T2 B.Wish for Duress with combo in hand/top of the deck (T1 Ponder/Brainstorm) to ensure going off protected T3/T4. This is relevant if the opponent fails to lay down his clock on the board (Bant color matchups, basically).

By far the BIGGEST advantage is the ability to leave Ooze combo in after SB without dedicating too many slots to it, because B.Wish is flexible between SnT and Ooze strategies. This gives room to (more) dedicated meta hate in SB, which can win many otherwise difficult matches by itself. While Jona chose REB (Merfolk, utility spell), Extirpate (Survival, Dredge, Reanimator) and Echoing Truth (utility, tokens), Windux chose Spell Pierce (utility), Progenitus (Karakas, Jace, etc.), Iona (Solidarity/mono-color) and Eye of Nowhere (Humility) with at least one more ?-slot remaining (Chain of Vapor/other utility spell/meta hate). Other SB plans can and should be developed for the B.Wish list, while the stock U/B list Sb is rather stagnant and very general because 14 cards HAVE TO be sided in in every match, regardless of opponent. I have already previously expressed how much I hated U/B SB Daze, and while Force Spike is better (Spell Snare is too conditional IMO and Spell Pierce is borderline because it sucks vs goblins etc.), it's far from stellar.

To conclude: When deckbuilding, never forget that more than 50% of tournament games are played post-SB.

Karhumies

12-23-2010, 04:53 AM

Despite not having played the deck much the past few days I also feel that some of my sideboard choices have become unnecessary with the new B&R announcement. I'm definitely going to cut the Extirpates, but I'm not sure about Echoing Truth and Pyroblast. I think I'll keep the former to bring it in against non-blue to bounce their hatepieces end of turn before I'm going off.
Pyroblast=REB has its place in Merfolk-Countertop-Landstill meta, with added utility of countering FoW/filter from other decks. The main problem is getting R mana T1 because using 1st fetch for non-basic can be a risky choice.

I also thought about adding one Bayou or Tropical Island to run Reverent Silence, but I don't think it's worth it.
In some metas, this may be viable. Although I'd rather oppose any life gain for opponent with Ooze combo still in the deck. Other wild options include:
Outbreak
Pyroclasm
// dedicated (goblin) token hate. Also kills Peacekeeper, which may be relevant if opponent resolves it from your SnT.
Unmask
// worse than Duress? Fighting for the same slot? Yes, no, maybe?
Overmaster
// random protection with cantrip
Meltdown
// pithing needle hate
Wash Out
// also works vs Humility and stuff, although slow as hell

have a different split of reanimate-spells (4 Reanimate; 2 Shallow Grave, which is a nice find by the way). My manabase is also slightly different, basically -1 Island and with different fetches.
I am currently testing with 3 Reanimate 3 Shallow Grave MD (no more P.Tutor->no need to leave the previous 1xExhume in MD) with 4th Reanimate in SB. B.Wish->Exhume is too expensive, but then again drawing 3rd Shallow Grave instead of 4th Reanimate is also expensive. I guess there is no clear-cut answer to this.

I run two Careful Studies, but I'm not sure if the second one should be Aquamoeba, I actually had a game where it could have mattered yesterday (I had one Careful Study in hand , but I needed it for Force Of Will so, so it only would've helped me if that had not been Aquamoeba).
I'd recommend testing with +1 Aquamoeba +1 LDV. LDV has diminishing returns if you get multiples in hand, but for that there's FoW. And it's nice to find 2nd LDV in same pile with missing combo piece for the fallback options of finding the next piece if combo is countered.

Jonathan Alexander

12-23-2010, 05:40 AM

Pyroblast=REB has its place in Merfolk-Countertop-Landstill meta, with added utility of countering FoW/filter from other decks. The main problem is getting R mana T1 because using 1st fetch for non-basic can be a risky choice.

Sure, but the blasts do nothing against Humility, Pithing Needle and storm combo, though you might just bring bounce for those. Either choice has its merits.

In some metas, this may be viable. Although I'd rather oppose any life gain for opponent with Ooze combo still in the deck. Other wild options include:
Outbreak
Pyroclasm
// dedicated (goblin) token hate. Also kills Peacekeeper, which may be relevant if opponent resolves it from your SnT.
Unmask
// worse than Duress? Fighting for the same slot? Yes, no, maybe?
Overmaster
// random protection with cantrip
Meltdown
// pithing needle hate
Wash Out
// also works vs Humility and stuff, although slow as hell

I don' think we should let Burning Wish and its targets eat too much of the sideboard, I'd still like to be able to have 4+ metaslots. I think I'm switching to Spell Pierce and Echoing Truth right now, as they're both blue and the blue-count is indeed low. Unmask is a nice idea, though, I'm going to try this out. I often have more than enough black cards in hand anyway, but I'm not entirely sure if it's worth it.

I guess there is no clear-cut answer to this.

I think you're right.

I'd recommend testing with +1 Aquamoeba +1 LDV. LDV has diminishing returns if you get multiples in hand, but for that there's FoW. And it's nice to find 2nd LDV in same pile with missing combo piece for the fallback options of finding the next piece if combo is countered.

Good idea, a singleton Careful Study is a bit random and since I'm not able to search it with Personal Tutor anymore, Lim-Dûls Vault should be better. I really hope to get some testing today.

Karhumies

12-23-2010, 05:45 PM

I don' think we should let Burning Wish and its targets eat too much of the sideboard, I'd still like to be able to have 4+ metaslots.

IMO, the standard B.Wish sideboard should be

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 3 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 3 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [CNF] Progenitus (Jace tMS, Karakas, O.Ring, etc.)
SB: 1 [OD] Buried Alive
SB: 1 Reanimate/Exhume
SB: 1 [M11] Duress
SB: 1 [CHK] Eye of Nowhere
SB: 4 META SLOT

I am basically trying to think of Sorcery singleton cards for the meta slots, because they would be easily accessible with B.Wish -> increase in variety -> increase in B.Wish usefulness. I guess 2 of the meta slots should be blue (instants) to keep the blue count high enough for FoW, though, so I am basically trying to find relevant Sorceries for the 2 remaining slots. Not very successful as of yet.

Jonathan Alexander

12-23-2010, 05:51 PM

This is basically what I'm running right now, except for Progenitus. I have 2 Spell Pierce and 2 Echoing Truth in the meta slots. I'm running the full set of Reanimates maindeck by the way, so I have Exhume in my board. I'm really not sure about that additional creature in the sideboard, since I don't want to side out eight cards. That one card really makes a difference.

pippo84

12-23-2010, 07:39 PM

I'm curious: has someone played both the Burning Wish list and the U/B list?

If yes, what are you playing atm (is better for you) and why?

I'm not convinced in BW here, but I haven't tested it..

Jonathan Alexander

12-24-2010, 05:10 AM

I haven't played lists without Burning Wish, but I have played lists with Burning Wish instead of Personal Tutor and lists with Burning Wish instead of Lim-Dûls Vault. But because I didn't draw Burning Wish in all of my games, I know how the deck plays out without Burning Wish and I have to say that Burning Wish is just incredibly better than Personal Tutor, it improves both your preboard and your postboard games. Being able to use Burning Wish as both, protection and combo piece at the same time is really strong, and you can often bait countermagic with it. I also really like how you have access to both combos preboard when playing Burning Wish.

median

12-25-2010, 03:02 AM

Would unmask be a decent Wish target? I have plenty of times when I have an extra exhume or some black card and could use the protection.

Karhumies

12-25-2010, 04:03 AM

Interesting goldfish result:

List used when running the goldfish (relevant information):
Main deck (60)
// Lands (16)
1 Swamp
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures (5)
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Aquamoeba
1 Triskelion
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn

// Win Combo (10)
3 Buried Alive
3 Reanimate
3 Shallow Grave
1 Show and Tell
*
// Disruption (8)
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
*
// Acceleration (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
*
// Tutor & cantrip (13)
4 Brainstorm
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Burning Wish
2 Ponder

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 3 Show and Tell
SB: 3 Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Buried Alive
SB: 1 Reanimate
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Eye of Nowhere
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Echoing Truth

Opening hand - B.Wish, B.Wish, Volc.Island, UG Sea, L.Petal, D.Ritual, Scalding Tarn - keep
// if instead of 2xB.Wish it had been 2xP.Tutor, I would have kept (after thinking). If 1xP.Tutor, 1xPonder, I would have mulliganed (after thinking).
T1: Scalding Tarn->Island, Lotus Petal, B.Wish->Reanimate
// I chose the combo piece with more MD copies 1st because if opponent Duresses/Therapies it, I have a better topdeck chance.
T2: draw (B.Wish!), Volcanic Island, B.Wish->B.Alive
// I chose BA instead of Duress because I could not cast Duress on T2 anyway & because I can combo off T3 on just 2 lands (Island + UG Sea + D.Rit) if Volcanic gets Wastelanded
T3: draw (FoW), UG Sea, D.Rit->BA, Reanimate (1 mana left in pool -> through Daze or 1xWasteland for Volcanic)
(top card = T4 draw would have been Polluted Delta)

Would you have played differently?

I'm curious: has someone played both the Burning Wish list and the U/B list?

If yes, what are you playing atm (is better for you) and why?

I'm not convinced in BW here, but I haven't tested it..

"Pros and cons" of B.Wish G1:
- lower blue count for FoW
- 1x Buried Alive in SB, making it slightly more difficult to find from MD with cantrip effects
- fetching for nonbasics opens you to wasteland
+/- Ooze combo reveals SnT and/or Emrakul to the opponent when comboing off G1 (makes opponent sideboard inconsistently, which can be + or -)
+ Emrakul-SnT possibility G1 (negligible IMO)
+ Increased resistance to mill-type decks (relevant only vs bad pilot or weak deck type)
+ access to B.Wish->Duress with 3 mana
+ access to B.Wish-> Eye of Nowhere
+ Ooze combo can dish out 2-3 extra damage based on B.Wish mana cost (negligible IMO)
+ possibility to Thoughtseize your own Emrakul and Shallow Grave it with haste into face (negligible IMO)
+ possibility to discard Emrakul to get gy back into the deck (negligible IMO)
+ opponent may Thoughtseize away Emrakul or Show and Tell when it's not relevant (negligible IMO)

G2/G3:
+ Ooze combo still accessible (big advantage!)
+ extra SB slots due to B.Wish
+ access to B.Wish->Duress with 3 mana
+ access to B.Wish->Eye of Nowhere
+/- SnT-Emrakul plan already revealed to opponent in G1 (makes opponent sideboard inconsistently, which can be + or -)
- lower blue count for FoW (becomes negligible after SB IMO, at least if you side in 2x Spell Pierce)
- 1x SnT in SB, making it slightly more difficult to find from MD with cantrip effects
- fetching for nonbasics opens you to wasteland

Overall, G1 performance is slightly worse but G2-G3 is either slightly or significantly better, depending on the MU. I am unable to say whether the pros outweigh the cons or the other way around, because this will be meta-dependant. I can say for sure that in metas with little to no gy hate, B.Wish will be better because even diluted Ooze combo G2 is still faster and more reliable than SnT-Emrakul, and having a fallback option/plan B can bring you the win even if Jace, tMS hits the table when you had Emrakul out and no counters in hand (or lost the counter-war).

I am currently running 2 B.Wish + 1 P.Tutor + 2 Ponder MD (above list with MD -1B.Wish +1 P.Tutor, SB -1 E.Truth +1 B.Wish/random card).

On a related note:
I have made a 100 euro budget version of the Ooze combo deck into the Budget forum (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19571-%5BLegacy%5D-Downscaled-UB-Ooze-combo-MD-90-euros-SB-20-euros).

dahcmai

12-25-2010, 12:15 PM

I've been more of a fan of Personal Tutor mainly just for the ability to run almost all basics. I even cut back to 3 Undergrounds and might go to 2. It's really nice to never have to worry about Wasteland. I would love the utility of having the wish, but I really think the basics are worth it.

Windux

12-25-2010, 06:44 PM

I really dislike the fact that we play 16 lands, with 50% fetches.
Dark Rituals are a must-go in this deck, I think, but Lotus Petals aren't
I cutted the Lotus Petal for other acceleration and more lands and doing really fine with it.
Petals are one-shots and not good with 4 LDV, 3 BW anymore.
3 Chrome Moxen are better in my testings

pippo84

12-27-2010, 12:31 PM

Did some more testing with the deck ( list with lim dul + personal t. And without burning wish).

G1 the deck is a total blast and we already knew it. Game 2 and 3 the Show and Tell route was really underwhelming. It's another 2 card combo, but I don't know why it was very difficult to resolve.

I am thinking of fighting GY hate.

Karhumies

12-27-2010, 12:56 PM

I am thinking of fighting GY hate.

Atm, I consider running 4 B.Wish in my SB. My logic is this: if we can generate 4-5 mana G1 for BA+Reanimate same turn, we can generate 5 mana for G2 B.Wish->SnT+SnT same turn (includes 3 colorless total, so full effect for D.Rit is gained). At the same time, I can leave most of Ooze combo stuff into MD in case opponent does not draw into hate G2/G3, and I do not reveal the SnT transformational plan G1. Post-SB list testing in progress, no opinions yet.

EDIT: This implies playing P.Tutors MD, and bringing in only 1 SnT from SB for P.Tutor.

Karhumies

12-27-2010, 05:03 PM

My recent deck-testing approach has been unconventional: I made as-good-as-possible post-SB list first. Then, I worked my way backwards to construct an MD list from what I had (un-sideboarding up to 15 cards, filling empty MD slots with better cards). Then, I worked my way back again, filling the empty SB slots with something I thought to be relevant.

Here's my current goldfish list, complete with SB instructions:

//NAME: Ooze goldfish MD
// Lands (17)
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
// Alternatively: -1 Mire/Tarn/UG Sea, +1 Island/Swamp

// Acceleration (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal

// Protection 10 (post-SB: 9)
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Pact of Negation
// Alternatively: 2 Spell Pierce

// Tutor & cantrip 11 (post-SB: 13)
2 Ponder
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Personal Tutor
4 Brainstorm

// Ooze combo 14 (post-SB: 10)
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Aquamoeba
1 Phyrexian Devourer
4 Buried Alive
4 Reanimate
2 Shallow Grave
// Alternatively: 1 Exhume, 1 Shallow Grave

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 Burning Wish
SB: 3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
// if you run Spell Pierce MD (in place of Pact of Negation), you gain 2 extra SB slots (META SLOT / e.g. 4th Emrakul, 1 Progenitus)
// Wishboard (6)
SB: 2 Show and Tell
SB: 1 Eye of Nowhere
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Unmask
SB: 1 Meltdown
// Meltdown chosen as anti-Pithing Needle card which can get red of multiples for just a single red mana. Also able to dodge Chalice @ 1 by paying extra-> higher cmc when in the stack.

// Universal SB plan:
-2 Pact of Negation
+2 Spell Pierce
// If you run Spell Pierce MD (in place of Pact of Negation), you gain 2 extra SB slots e.g. for 1 Emrakul, 1 Progenitus.
-1 Thoughtseize
-2 Ponder
-1 Buried Alive
-1 Reanimate
-2 Shallow Grave
+4 Burning Wish
+3 Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn

// List for G2-G3 (post-SB)
// Lands (17)
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Mountain
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
// Acceleration (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
// Protection 9
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
// Tutor & cantrip 13
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Personal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
// Ooze combo 10
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Aquamoeba
1 Phyrexian Devourer
3 Buried Alive
3 Reanimate
// SnT combo 3
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
// This is plan B in case opponent has relevant hate: LDV for Emrakul, then in one turn generate 5 mana for B.Wish->SnT, SnT

// Sideboard 15
// Wishboard 9
SB: 2 Show and Tell
SB: 1 Reanimate
SB: 1 Buried Alive
SB: 1 Eye of Nowhere
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Unmask
SB: 1 Meltdown
// Other SB cards 6
SB: 2 Ponder
// you can B.Wish->Ponder to get blue card for FoW, lol
SB: 2 Shallow Grave
SB: 2 Pact of Negation
// or 2 META SLOT if you run Spell Pierce MD

Opinions, ideas, suggestions? You're welcome to give feedback.

Karhumies

12-28-2010, 02:23 AM

Comment on my previous list: Post-SB, 2x Echoing Truth or 2x Wipe Away may be more relevant in fighting the hate than 2x Spell Pierce. This would allow us to EOT bounce opponent's T1 Tormod/Relic/Leyline/Pithing Needle (for which we didn't have FoW in opening hand) to go off on our turn. The switch does not even reduce post-SB blue count.

Tokobotenkai

01-02-2011, 06:29 AM

Hi guys, new to the deck here.

Was wondering, given if your opponent knows about how the deck works (which would arise if the deck gains much popularity) would this deck be able to perform in the upcoming meta (which I assume is the pre-m tutor banning meta, without Reanimator)?

What are the possible bad MUs to note?

Karhumies

01-02-2011, 02:27 PM

What are the possible bad MUs to note?

The main weaknesses of this deck remain the same pre- and post-banning:
- Anything with MD Extirpate or Trickbind (e.g. Trickbind-Dreadstill, anti-Survival/animator decks with MD Extirpate)
- Anything with 12+ counterspells (e.g. some Counterbalance builds, some other blue-based decks)
- Potentially faster combo decks (e.g. Belcher and Elfball)
- Solidarity

If the deck has a non-transformational sideboard, then you will also have problems with opposing sideboard cards, including (but not limited to):
- Leyline of the Void
- Leyline of Sanctity
- Extirpate

Which ones of these are noteworthy in popularity will depend on your local metagame.

pippo84

01-02-2011, 06:44 PM

You must also consider that opponents may know your transformational SB because it can't be "secret" forever..

As for bad MU's I think that G1 the deck shouldn't have any problems.. Then it depends on the SB.
Even decks with MD Extirpate (few and with few copies MD) just lose to a well placed Thoughtseize.

Karhumies

01-02-2011, 06:52 PM

You must also consider that opponents may know your transformational SB because it can't be "secret" forever..

If your local meta is small (e.g. 20 players or less), you can alternate between different transformational SB strategies from one tournament to another: Helm-line, SnT-Emrakul, Painter-stone. Or if you can successfully pull off such a list, even include 2 different SB strategies in the same SB to choose from. It's much more about the mind games when you have less players. This deck is especially vulnerable to certain SB cards if the SB procedure is known, so you need to maintain the element of surprise on your side.

kusumoto

01-03-2011, 09:25 PM

So I built something like this on MTGO and it looks like no matter what, as soon as you flip 3+ the ooze dies. This is what automatically happens on MTGO. So can I get an explanation of how the deck isn't always dying to bad flips if this is the case?

ivanpei

01-03-2011, 09:35 PM

I think that MTGO has the dying with cmc 3+ as a cost and not as a result of the resolution of the ability. Oracle wording states that ooze dies on the resolution of the ability and not when flipping. MTGO bug, need to report?

kusumoto

01-03-2011, 09:48 PM

Well I asked an ORC and he claimed it wasn't a bug. I don't know how to report these things then.

blaat

01-03-2011, 10:55 PM

Well I asked an ORC and he claimed it wasn't a bug. I don't know how to report these things then.

You have to keep priority, which means you need to hold the shift-key (or was it the ctrl-key???) for each activation.
Just try it out a few times on solitaire mode.

Beware: the exile zone is displayed alphabetic, so you need a very good eye to see what card you exiled (more or less counting the number of cmc>3 cards in there every time).

I play a lot of mtgo games without problems, but this deck just doesn't love the client interface right now.

kusumoto

01-03-2011, 11:19 PM

Ok that is the issue then. So it is the CTRL key.

Thanks. This is a fun deck. It's a pain to win online, but it's good to find out we haven't been living a lie with the deck.

pippo84

01-04-2011, 05:22 AM

If your local meta is small (e.g. 20 players or less), you can alternate between different transformational SB strategies from one tournament to another: Helm-line, SnT-Emrakul, Painter-stone. Or if you can successfully pull off such a list, even include 2 different SB strategies in the same SB to choose from. It's much more about the mind games when you have less players. This deck is especially vulnerable to certain SB cards if the SB procedure is known, so you need to maintain the element of surprise on your side.

My local meta is not small, it's actually big and well developed! :cool:

What I meant is that if this deck gains popularity (eg. becomes a DtB) people will know about the SB plan or the possible SB plans..

dahcmai

01-10-2011, 02:12 AM

I don't get why this deck isn't more popular. I've been playing it for a few weeks now and it's pure money. Every single tournament I played it in and even the ones where someone borrowed it to use, it won with almost no effort. The deck is silly strong. I haven't ran into Extirpate which is probably half of it and I did lose a game to goblins once since Emrakul is a little weak vs Stingscourger and I had forgot about him. I don't get what this deck is bad against so far. Combo can be tricky, but typically I usually killed quicker. It's rare to go past turn 3 and with the Thoughtseizes, Duresses, and Forces it seems to be no contest.

We actually have a heavy combo and counterbalance area no less.

ivanpei

01-10-2011, 02:18 AM

Agreed, I've been busting all sorts of decks with this for the longest while. Casually people simply refuse to play against it. It beats aggro obviously, has roughly the same goldfish speed as storm combo + more disruption. Against control, the deck plays 4 seize + force preboard without the need to go all in and is immune to removal. Postboard, you have so much more space for disruption after you board into show and tell. I don't understand why this isn't T8-ing all over. I understand that personal tutors are hard to come by and that may be the major problem. I play 4 LDV + 2 personal tutors and I do have to admit, tracking those 2 tutors down was pretty bloody difficult.

Karhumies

01-10-2011, 09:00 AM

I don't get what this deck is bad against so far.

I took part in a 33 player tournament last Saturday. I faced R1 Stifle-nought Jacestill (with MD Trickbind, MD Jace for bouncing Emrakul, SB Pithing Needle), 0-2 loss. R2 I was against Solidarity (with MD Cunning Wish->Ravenous Trap and High Tide-> a trillion counters), 0-1 loss with second game unresolved. So, I was out from top 8 after only 2 rounds. I think those are the deck's 2 worst possible matchups. My end record was 3-3. I beat TES 2-0, beat LED-less Dredge 2-0, lost vs C.Balance landstill 1-2 (very close game 3), beat RBgw aggressive creature-based board control 2-1 (I had G1 kill in hand but I had also drawn the Ooze, so I could not cast everything by the time he killed me in combat so I scooped).

I played pretty much the standard U/B 2-color MD with the following sideboard:
4 SnT
3 Emrakul
1 Progenitus (meta call vs Jace; never found him in the landstill MUs :-( )
4 Leyline of the Void (meta call vs Dredge and Reanimator; there were 2 Dredge in top 4)
1 Helm of Obedience (single-handedly won me 2 matches; G2 vs Dredge and G2-G3 vs 4c control who knew my strategy and had G2 SB gy hate vs Ooze and Tariff vs Emrakul, so I went T3 Helm-Line win instead. G3 he did not have the SB Tariff in the deck anymore, so I went T3 SnT-Emrakul ftw.)
2 Wipe Away (meta call vs Counterbalance; could not find these in time or pitched them to FoW in those MUs :( Also useful vs gy hate)

I relied on the deck's fastness after SB rather than disruption. One of my side plans was
-2 Ponder
-2 Shallow Grave
-1 Buried Alive
+ 4 Leyline of the Void
+1 Helm of Obedience

...which allowed me to play both the Ooze combo and the Helm-line combo in the same deck.

Another SB plan was
-14 Ooze combo
-1 irrelevant
+15 sideboard

...which allowed me to play both the SnT and Helm-line combos in the same MD.
...or, if Wipe Away was irrelevant in the MU, leave them in the SB and leave 1 Shallow Grave in the MD for a potential Thoughtseize yourself->Emrakul in gy->Shallow Grave for haste.

All in all, it was really hard to play when everyone had read my tournament report from The Source and knew my strategy. ;) My original plan had been to play Affinity, which would have been excellent meta choice, but my Mox Opals did not arrive in time in the mail. :(

Top stuff:
R1G2 vs Stifle-nought:
I had brought in Helm-line combo + 2x Wipe Away from SB, keeping the Ooze combo in (resolved Jace would beat my Emrakul anyway). Opponent leads off with a T1 Relic, so I switch plans and cast T4 Leyline around Daze, pushing it through 1 counterspell with FoW (pitching Wipe Away, leaving FoW as only card in hand). T5 I draw blue card (Brainstorm?), cast Helm of Obedience around Daze with FoW back-up, activate it with X=1 with a Lotus Petal (tapped out). Opponent (4 lands for mana) responds by breaking his SB'd-in Relic of Progenitus, then Brainstorms (which I think might be Stifle bait so I let it resolve) and finds Trickbind + Pithing Needle. With his two mana left, he Trickbinds through my FoW, then I pass the turn. He plays the Needle, I FoW, then he casts the Daze around which I have been playing the whole time (with my Wipe Away in exile) and eventually kills me with a Mishra's Factory. :-(

R2G2 vs Solidarity:
I had kept in the Ooze combo, because there is no way I could beat the opponent with SnT-Emrakul (I did side in 3x Emrakul and 1x SnT as secret TecH, though). I cast T2 Thoughtseize to find Remand, Cunning Wish, Cryptic Command, irrelevant stuff. I am forced to take away the Remand and cast Buried Alive T3 (opponent at 2 lands) without 1 extra mana for the Reanimate to resolve BA without Cunning Wish->Ravenous Trap hitting me. T4, I lead off with another Thoughtseize to which opponent responds by topdecked Brainstorm and starts playing solitaire. Eventually, he casts Flash of Insight with X=11 and misses with 1x Meditate somewhere in the stack. He Remands my Thoughtseize. I pass the turn to myself to take away the effect of his High Tides and empty his pool, then cast Thoughtseize -> Remand -> Thoughtseize again, resolves, I take out the only remaining counter. Then I cast the Reanimate, resulting in a desperate Brain Freeze attempt (due to low mana) which empties his whole hand. Emrakuls are revealed, MtG rules counter my Reanimate, nothing is left in my gy, in my hand, or in opponent's hand. We play draw-land-go for a few turns, after which time is called, after which I find 1x Reanimate and 1x Emrakul but not SnT or BA for the win.

What I meant is that if this deck gains popularity (eg. becomes a DtB) people will know about the SB plan or the possible SB plans..

Top tip: SnT combo MD, Ooze combo from SB. Who would side in grave hate versus Emrakul?

Karhumies

01-10-2011, 09:21 AM

To sum up my previous post:

Worst match-ups possible, as according to my own play experience:
#1 Solidarity, approx. 5-95 in their favor (even with only 2 mana, they can e.g. Remand or High Tide-> Reset-> Cantrip -> Cunning Wish -> Ravenous Trap. With 3+ lands, they can just outright kill you with a good draw.)
#2 Stiflenought Jacestill with MD Trickbind, MD Jace and SB Pithing Needle, approx. 30-70 in their favor
#3 Monoblue counterbalance, approx. coin flip
#4 LED Dredge with SB Unmask + Pithing Needle/gy hate, approx. 60-40 in our favor (mainly because of our FoW)

Fatestitcher

01-10-2011, 09:35 AM

You have 4 FoWs and 4 T.Seize to deal with combo decks like Solidarity, I don't think it's your worst matchup. In my opinion those will be CBTop (CB lock) and Ubgw Standstill because they pack more permission spells.

Top tip: SnT combo MD, Ooze combo from SB. Who would side in grave hate versus Emrakul?

True. But game 1 you open yourself to alot more threats: Jace, the Game Sculptor, Oblivion Ring, Humility, Innocent Blood, Stingscourger, Runed Halo, Karakas among others. Whereas, almost nobody maindecks GY hate.

Karhumies

01-10-2011, 09:57 AM

You have 4 FoWs and 4 T.Seize to deal with combo decks like Solidarity, I don't think it's your worst matchup. In my opinion those will be CBTop (CB lock) and Ubgw Standstill because they pack more permission spells.

This depends on the build, but usually CB-decks have a tendency to keep G1 hands which allow them to establish board control with fast Top and C.Balance or cc2 creature, leaving them (almost) tapped out for the permission. This gives us a chance to go off, as long as we play around Daze and are prepared for 1x FoW. Solidarity, on the other hand, capitalizes on leaving all their mana open for the opponent's turn, even in the early turns of the game. This makes all the difference in the world for us. Not to even mention that multi-color decks might not even have blue mana available on every opponent's turn because of a play mistake or bad topdeck (Mishra, Wasteland, off-color basics), while Solidarity plays all Islands.

True. But game 1 you open yourself to alot more threats: Jace, the Game Sculptor, Oblivion Ring, Humility, Innocent Blood, Stingscourger, Runed Halo, Karakas among others. Whereas, almost nobody maindecks GY hate.

True. However, I was talking of a potential future situation in which they would leave those cards into MD anyway because they know our SB strategy, and add 1-2 Tariff or some other nasty anti-Emrakul stuff from the board into the mix as well. In that kind of scenario, playing the Emrakul plan versus only their MD hate G1 instead of combined hate G2 might be preferable.

pippo84

01-10-2011, 11:07 AM

Karhumies

01-10-2011, 12:16 PM

How to play against problematic MUs:

Solidarity (my guess: 5-95 for them)

I have once succeeded in pulling off a 1st turner through the opponent's FoW. Whenever I have tried to combo off on turn 2+, FoW protection or not, I have always been countered. Solidarity does not need to SB anything against us, and our relevant SB cards are limited to Spell Pierce/Spell Snare/Force Spike (unless we have Iona). SnT just gives them an extra land drop to go off.
Solution #1: SnT-Iona on :u:
Solution #2: The return of Counterbalance decks kills Solidarity out from the meta = we win.

mono-:u: counterbalance (my guess: coin flip, unless they play stifle-nought -> 30-70 in their favor)
-never play or fetch duals, as they are running Wastelands
-you should try to go off through 1xDaze when they don't have :u::u: available for Counterspell (e.g. tapped out for Standstill or Counterbalance)
-G1 is much easier if you are on the play
-The match is much easier if they run Spell Snare instead of Spell Pierce, because it misses L.Petal, D.Ritual, B.Alive, Reanimate and SnT
-They have a very slow clock (unless they have stifle-nought), so you can try to combo off multiple times G1 until they miss with C.Balance and/or run out of counters. I have once won from 2 life with a lucky topdeck.
-The match is much harder if they run Stifle-nought, because they can
a) G1 Trickbind the Ooze and win
b) race you much faster with Dreadnought
c) G2-G3 stifle/trickbind Emrakul's first Annihilator trigger to buy 1 extra turn for landing Jace
-Mono-:u: build should not have any mc=3 spells to hit Show and Tell with their counterbalance, so you only need to worry about the hard counters
-The ideal SnT creatures are Progenitus, Iona on :u: and Inkwell Leviathan (although they can race Leviathan with stifle-nought). If you land Emrakul, you need to counter their Jace (usually they have to tap out to cast it, so it's hard for them to land it).

4c landstill (my guess: 75-25 in our favor, unless they have SB Extirpate-> 65-35 in our favor)
-They have a very light counter-suite compared to mono-:u: C.balance decks
-4-color's manabase can not support Wasteland reliably
-G1: P.Deed = dead card, E.Explosives = dead card, Jace = pitches to FoW or a really expensive brainstorm
-They are almost 100% certainly running Spell Snare (almost dead card) instead of Spell Pierce because it helps them immensely vs T2 Tarmogoyf on the draw. So you can play as if they don't have Spell Pierce at all.
-They have a really slow clock and no counterbalance, so you can try to combo off multiple times. This becomes more problematic if they land Jace and start to control your topdecks, but you may still get lucky and win on the spot.
-They want to SB out half of their deck, but based on G1 they have almost nothing relevant to Sb in.
-G2 they are likely to not bring in their Peacekeeper, but you can SB in Wipe Away just in case they do.
-Their only gy hate is very likely to be Relic of progenitus, because it allows them to make combat tricks with Mishra versus opposing goyf, Terravore and KotR. Also, they don't need the speed of Tormod vs Dredge because they can EE @ 0.
-They are not likely to play Extirpate as gy hate because Relic gives them card advantage. However, if they do, you need to be careful that they don't G2 counter your SnT, then Extirpate the SnT or you are screwed.

Counter-top Bant (my guess: 60-40 in our favor with a lot of variance=randomness based on their 1-of and 2-of outs)
-They have small tempo-based counter-suite, so if you play around 1x Daze and hope they don't have FoW you should be fine. However, if they have :u: open, it's most likely for Brainstorm or Spell Pierce (usually not Spell Snare).
-you are strongly favored in G1, but after that it gets tricky
-Slightly random MU, as they can have Rhox War Monk as mc=3 against Show and Tell.
-hard to choose correct SnT creature:
a) they may have Karakas vs Iona on :u: (or keep StoP in MD for some odd reason), or they can just race with double goyf
b) they may have Jace (or Karakas) vs Emrakul
c) they can race Inkwell Leviathan with Exalted Rhox War Monk
d) they may Natural Order for their own copy of Progenitus vs Progenitus, then kill you with Goyf & friends

Karhumies

01-10-2011, 12:52 PM

Maybe it's just me but I find the Show & Tell combo much more vulnerable. Thinking of fighting GY hate: people willusually SB 3-4 cards against GY? Let's say a bit more if they also play extirpate.. I think that having some Duress + Pithing Needle or bounce spells from the board would be enough.

The problem: what do you suggest SB out in a UB list?

Usual options the opponents may have in their SB:
3-4 gy hate cards total

1) Relic of Progenitus
-probably the most common because it cantrips.
-usually sucks a lot vs Dredge.

2) Tormod's Crypt
-used by non-black decks who need their own graveyard. some decks split 2-2 between Tormod and Relic to diversify against P.Needle.
-favored by Affinity because it speeds up the deck.

3) Leyline of the Void
-favored by black decks and Rb Goblins, because these decks can hardcast it later in the game.
-the best answer against Dredge and Reanimator strategies, because it is a potentially uncounterable must-answer and has to be destroyed/bounced
-IMO underplayed in the "general Legacy metagame"

4) Wheel of Sun and Moon
-popular in the decks which run white for E.Tutor

Unusual options:

1) Faerie Macabre (the only relevant creature-based gy hate)
-was popular when Reanimator was popular.

2) Ravenous Trap
-most notably Solidarity MD Cunning Wish->Ravenous Trap

3) Bojuka Bog
-most notably Knight of the Round->Bojuka Bog (Bog from SB), but if you see the opponent running Living Wish or Crop Rotation in G1 MD, you can expect them to find a Bojuka Bog or Karakas with it. Most notably some Enchantress builds have MD Living Wish.

Anti-hate options:
Wipe Away (in opponent's EOT) hits all 4 most common hate cards, even through counters and usually even through C.balance. Highly recommended.
Good stuff: Also hits other combo hate cards, such as Pithing Needle (Necrotic Ooze), Leyline of Sanctity, Meddling Mage.
Bad stuff: does not help vs multiple hate cards. If you fail to combo off on the following turn, hate can be replayed.

Stifle/Trickbind hits Relic, Tormod, Macabre, Pithing Needle, Meddling Mage
Good Stuff: Trickbind has Split Second. Both are blue cards for FoW. Both are very useful vs. non-blue decks.
Bad stuff: Requires extra :u: mana, usually during the combo turn. Does not help vs opposing T1 P.Needle.

Duress
Good Stuff: Hits almost everything (in theory).
Bad stuff: When on the draw and opponent plays hate to the table on T1, Duress hits nothing (in practice).

Eye of Nowhere
I can no longer recommend this card because Counterbalance and Spell Snare are very popular cards in today's "general Legacy meta". P.Tutor->Eye of Nowhere is just a horrible play.

Pithing Needle hits Tormod, Relic, Faerie Macabre.
Good stuff: Can be dropped T1, so dodges a lot of opposing counters.
Bad stuff: misses a LOT of hate cards (most notably Leyline of the Void, Wheel of Sun and Moon). Also, if opponent has split the hate between Tormod and Relic, you can only name one of them.

Also, if you plan to fight the hate, I recommend you to switch all MD Exhume into Shallow Grave for reasons I have already stated before in this thread.

What to side out (UB build, examples):
17 lands -> 16 lands
4 Ponder -> 2 Ponder (as long as you bring in as many blue anti-hate cards to maintain blue count)
2 P. Tutor -> 1 P. Tutor (P.Tutor does not find the anti-hate card, so it becomes slightly less useful in the MU)
4 Reanimate -> 3 Reanimate (as long as you think adding another anti-hate card helps you more than cutting back animation from 6->5 hurts you)

dahcmai

01-10-2011, 08:12 PM

Maybe that's one difference. I amusing the Show and Tell combo out of the board also, though I use Hive Mind for the kill and get to bring in Pact of Negations which help push it through on control decks. I can imagine Stiflenought being tricky though. I haven't ran into that one or Solidarity for that matter. Though no one around here would play Solidarity if their life depended on it. I used to be incredibly good with the deck and no one wants to see me break it out again.

What's funny is goblins seems like the worst thing I faced since you have to have a perfect hand or get your butt handed to you due to that speed it has off a lacky. Emrakul doesn't work very well due to the bounce and weirding on accident. Then they obviously have grave hate to top it off so you have to stay with the primary kill and hope. I have been using Slaughter pacts on top of my Hive Mind combo to stay alive and help win.

jamis

01-10-2011, 09:15 PM

Haven't posted here in a bit. Changed the topic title as people requested a page or two back, I just kept it simple.

Anyway, onto the meat. I think a semi-transformational sideboard is best right now. With the remergance of CounterTop, it's becoming really hard to rely on playing Buried Alive post-board in several matches. I still like the main combo against aggro since they typically just board in a few crypts which you bounce EOT and win next turn.

My board now is:
4 Echoing Truth
2 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
1 Progenitus
1 Blazing Archon
1 LDV
4 S&T
1 Doomsday
1 Shelldock Isle

I'm currently debating if having a 3rd Emrakul in the board is better than a 4th LDV. It makes you a bit faster, but slightly lowers your chances of putting in Progenitus or Blazing Archon if you need them. Considering Wipe Away now that CounterTop is big again, but theoretically, I want to be casting Doomsday in that match-up anyway. Echoing Truth is much better in all the other match-ups, too, so maybe I'll leave Wipe Away out.

Karhumies

01-11-2011, 05:09 AM

I'm currently debating if having a 3rd Emrakul in the board is better than a 4th LDV.
I would look for a way to put the 4th LDV into main. It's good both pre-SB and post-SB, so I don't really see the advantage of running it in the SB (instead of MD) in G1.

Considering Wipe Away now that CounterTop is big again, but theoretically, I want to be casting Doomsday in that match-up anyway.
I can appreciate the potential speed of D.Ritual->Doomsday, but do you have any plans for an opposing Wasteland to your Shelldock Isle? The C.balance lists I have played against all run them as a 4-of, so it's just as common answer to your strategy as FoW is in that MU.

Maybe that's one difference. I amusing the Show and Tell combo out of the board also, though I use Hive Mind for the kill and get to bring in Pact of Negations which help push it through on control decks.
With all the Jace, a lot of Karakas and tons of control decks in the current "wide Legacy metagame", this seems like a potential route for me to take as well. Pact of Negation can even be run MD as extra protection for the G1 combo turn. I better order a set of Hive Mind.

EDIT: I can already picture the look on my opponent's face when I hardcast the Hive Mind with lands + petal on T5-6. I have heard a rumor that it's hard to hit that with a C.balance trigger, and counter pack-up may be able to push it through the hard counters. Sometimes, having a slow clock (e.g. 1x Mishra) really does have its disadvantages.

pippo84

01-11-2011, 05:43 AM

I would look for a way to put the 4th LDV into main. It's good both pre-SB and post-SB, so I don't really see the advantage of running it in the SB (instead of MD) in G1.

I can appreciate the potential speed of D.Ritual->Doomsday, but do you have any plans for an opposing Wasteland to your Shelldock Isle? The C.balance lists I have played against all run them as a 4-of, so it's just as common answer to your strategy as FoW is in that MU.

With all the Jace, a lot of Karakas and tons of control decks in the current "wide Legacy metagame", this seems like a potential route for me to take as well. Pact of Negation can even be run MD as extra protection for the G1 combo turn. I better order a set of Hive Mind.

EDIT: I can already picture the look on my opponent's face when I hardcast the Hive Mind with lands + petal on T5-6. I have heard a rumor that it's hard to hit that with a C.balance trigger, and counter pack-up may be able to push it through the hard counters. Sometimes, having a slow clock (e.g. 1x Mishra) really does have its disadvantages.

Jander78 wrote a report using the Hive Mind combo as a SB strategy (check post number 6 of this thread), but he wrote it didn't do well..

I never tried it, but I don't really like adding the Hive Mind combo and I'm not convinced by the Show and Tell one.

My thoughts:

Fight Hate

Add the Doomsday/Shelldock combo

Transformational SB into ANT

What's the best in your opinion? (advantages and disadvantages)

[/LIST]

Karhumies

01-11-2011, 09:51 AM

Jander78 wrote a report using the Hive Mind combo as a SB strategy (check post number 6 of this thread), but he wrote it didn't do well..

I never tried it, but I don't really like adding the Hive Mind combo and I'm not convinced by the Show and Tell one.

My thoughts:

Fight Hate

Add the Doomsday/Shelldock combo

Transformational SB into ANT

What's the best in your opinion? (advantages and disadvantages)
[/LIST]

Our biggest problem IMO is blue decks, namely Stifle-nought and other Counterbalance builds.

I took a quick look in the ANT thread, and it seems like they encourage SBing ANT->Doomsday Emrakul versus C.balance, and also having Xantid Swarm in the SB for the combo turn.

While our G1 strategy is different from ANT, I guess it could be beneficial to try out some of their sideboard TecH versus test opponents, because the ANT players have a much, much longer tradition of fighting C.balance decks (and other hate permanents) than we do.

For reference:
// Sample ANT sideboard (15)
4 x Doomsday (or 3 Doomsday + 1 Echoing Truth)
1 x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 x Shelldock isle
4 x Xantid swarm
1 x Tropical Island
4 x Chain of vapor

The key things to note is that a)it's hard to hit mc=3 Doomsday with Counterbalance, b) D.Ritual is enough to cast :b::b::b: Doomsday (unlike :2::u: Show and Tell), c) The deck doesn't seem to pack an untap effect for Shelldock Isle which is..kind of risky against Wasteland IMO.

Tokobotenkai

01-11-2011, 09:58 AM

pippo84

01-11-2011, 10:11 AM

Not to nitpick but it's not transformational into ANT. Unless you go DD into tendrils. But even DD itself is more of DDFT not ANT. ANT only recently taken up the DD>Emrakul plan from DDFT (which I feel thanks to PJ).

Besides with DD you can build a storm pile of 7-10 storm count (excluding DD) with specific cards in hand, but that's another topic.

The issue with shelldock is either:
1) You find a way to untap isle to drop emrakul on the same turn you resolve DD (which I doubt is an issue considering most CB has a slow clock).
2) Non-basic hate (i.e. wastes), Pithing Needle and Karakas.(usual problem).

I wrote down 3 different options, so actually yes, you can transformational SB into Ant. You just have to change a few minor slots MD and it isn't a problem (and those slots can be changed easily).

As for the second part of your post (shelldock comments), I agree..

Tokobotenkai

01-11-2011, 10:15 AM

I wrote down 3 different options, so actually yes, you can transformational SB into Ant. You just have to change a few minor slots MD and it isn't a problem (and those slots can be changed easily).

As for the second part of your post (shelldock comments), I agree..

Opps, I misread your post. Sorry.

But if you are going to transform into ANT (LED and all) why not just play ANT? The old reanimator list (pre-m tutor banning) was able to transform into ANT post SB but it diluted the deck engine and it usually isn't a good idea.

dahcmai

01-11-2011, 11:05 AM

The combo is fast enough as it is, no sense trying to be all tricky against decks that are going to fight you in the same exact way post-board as they would pre-board. CB is going to bring in Grave hate if they don't know better and start upping the counters count by bringing in Spell Pierces. At least that's what I would do. So they actually gain an advantage by going this route since you do not up your threat count any. You are only changing the way the combo is going to work so you do make a couple of cards dead, but things like Spell Pierce are just as good and they only boarded out total dead cards to get them.

I can see adding in a single Doomsday, Shelldock, and keeping the Emrakul / Show and Tell board all at the same time. That way you have two outs. I might even try that, though it still doesn't fix my goblins problem, but that's what Needles are for.

jamis

01-11-2011, 12:37 PM

I can appreciate the potential speed of D.Ritual->Doomsday, but do you have any plans for an opposing Wasteland to your Shelldock Isle? The C.balance lists I have played against all run them as a 4-of, so it's just as common answer to your strategy as FoW is in that MU.
That's strange, in my experience CB decklists can't support Wasteland as they tend to be extremely mana hungry and are often in 3-5 colors. Of course, decks like Dreadstill and MUC do play countertop and Wasteland, so I see how those decks would probably trash all over this deck. But in Bant, Thopter Foundry and 5color Countertop, I believe Wasteland is very uncommon.

dahcmai, what build of Goblins is giving you trouble? In my experience, Goblins is one of the decks best match-ups. I usually play against mono-red, though, so I could see how Rb, might cause problems though, with Thoughtseize and Extirpate.

Karhumies

01-11-2011, 01:10 PM

I can see adding in a single Doomsday, Shelldock, and keeping the Emrakul / Show and Tell board all at the same time. That way you have two outs.

I think I should explain my reasoning for my previous post about adopting fetchland doomsday tendrils / ANT sideboard TecH:

About fighting the gy hate:

Against non-blue decks, :u: for Chain of Vapor > :1::u::u: for Wipe Away as a catch-all. SB in 4x bounce, leave in ooze combo is a valid strategy vs non-blue.

Against blue decks, Xantid Swarm > their counters. Basically, we need only one turn without disruption to take home the win. This is similar to Tendrils storm decks, so TecH may be viable if the win condition(s) in G2 can be supported by X.Swarm (= not hit by gy hate permanents, not hit by Wasteland). This would need deck list testing and development, which I tried to invoke in my previous post.

Against blue decks without Wasteland, I was considering we may bring in 1x Shelldock Isle, 1x Emrakul, 1-4x Doomsday to supplement the Ooze strategy rather than replace it. It could potentially work as a "plan B" when the Ooze combo fails. The good stuff about this is that we don't need to find 2 combo pieces (SnT + Emrakul) after failing "plan A": 1x Doomsday (P.Tutorable, no less) is enough. Furthermore, the extra turn we get for casting Emrakul should kill either the opponent or his lands for casting a Jace to bounce the Emrakul. P.Needle is probably the most problematic card here, but if they name Ooze -> we go with Doomsday. Naturally, against Karakas decks, the Emrakul startegy could be left to SB and we would just fight the hate otherwise.

Against blue decks with Wasteland, Doomsday->Shelldock Isle + Emrakul is not usually a viable replacement option for the Ooze combo. And these are our weakest match-ups anyway. So we need to brainstorm SB options against these decks.

One of the key things to solving this issue is finding out whether Xantid Swarm is worth the SB slot or not versus blue decks. And which strategy is the most successful in G2 versus blue decks, anyway:
heavy Ooze + light "plan B" (no bounce/XS into MD)
smaller ooze package + heavy "plan B" + 2x bounce (no Xantid Swarm in SB)
smaller ooze package + light "plan B" + 4x bounce
smaller ooze package + light "plan B" + 4x Swarm
smaller ooze package + light "plan B" + 2x bounce + 2x Xantid Swarm
full transitional into something else than Doomsday->Emrakul or SnT->Emrakul

Karhumies

01-11-2011, 01:17 PM

That's strange, in my experience CB decklists can't support Wasteland as they tend to be extremely mana hungry and are often in 3-5 colors. Of course, decks like Dreadstill and MUC do play countertop and Wasteland, so I see how those decks would probably trash all over this deck. But in Bant, Thopter Foundry and 5color Countertop, I believe Wasteland is very uncommon.

In my meta, most counterbalance decks are mono-blue (Dreadstill with Jace, Jacestill without Dreadnought), but some have a light splash (e.g. Uw ThopterSwords). They are permission decks with only light board control elements (e.g. SB Peacekeeper, Moat, Llawan versus Merfolk). And they are very problematic to deal with.

dahcmai, what build of Goblins is giving you trouble? In my experience, Goblins is one of the decks best match-ups. I usually play against mono-red, though, so I could see how Rb, might cause problems though, with Thoughtseize and Extirpate.

I would guess Rb with MD tutorable Warren Weirding and 4x SB Leyline of the Void can be problematic versus Show and Tell - Emrakul

jamis

01-11-2011, 02:04 PM

Against non-blue decks, :u: for Chain of Vapor > :1::u::u: for Wipe Away as a catch-all. SB in 4x bounce, leave in ooze combo is a valid strategy vs non-blue.
I completely agree. Vs. most non-blue I either leave in the combo, or side out protection for both combos. Bounce is usually enough to deal with whatever is coming in against you. I personally prefer Echoing truth, as it hits multiple Leylines or Pithing Needles, as your opponent might expect Chain, but yeah leaving Ooze in and bringing in some low-cost bounce is very valid.

Against blue decks, Xantid Swarm > their counters. Basically, we need only one turn without disruption to take home the win. This is similar to Tendrils storm decks, so TecH may be viable if the win condition(s) in G2 can be supported by X.Swarm (= not hit by gy hate permanents, not hit by Wasteland). This would need deck list testing and development, which I tried to invoke in my previous post.
Never really considered Swarm, though it could work well. I'd be interested in hearing how testing proves for those that attempt to use it.

Against blue decks without Wasteland, I was considering we may bring in 1x Shelldock Isle, 1x Emrakul, 1-4x Doomsday to supplement the Ooze strategy rather than replace it. It could potentially work as a "plan B" when the Ooze combo fails. The good stuff about this is that we don't need to find 2 combo pieces (SnT + Emrakul) after failing "plan A": 1x Doomsday (P.Tutorable, no less) is enough. Furthermore, the extra turn we get for casting Emrakul should kill either the opponent or his lands for casting a Jace to bounce the Emrakul. P.Needle is probably the most problematic card here, but if they name Ooze -> we go with Doomsday. Naturally, against Karakas decks, the Emrakul startegy could be left to SB and we would just fight the hate otherwise.
Yeah, I've mostly been using Doomsday to supplement S&T in those match-ups. I like it with S&T rather than BA since Doomsday can't set up the Ooze combo, where a pile of Shelldock Isle, Emrakul, Progenitus, S&T, S&T is really strong.

In my meta, most counterbalance decks are mono-blue (Dreadstill with Jace, Jacestill without Dreadnought), but some have a light splash (e.g. Uw ThopterSwords). They are permission decks with only light board control elements (e.g. SB Peacekeeper, Moat, Llawan versus Merfolk). And they are very problematic to deal with.

I would guess Rb with MD tutorable Warren Weirding and 4x SB Leyline of the Void can be problematic versus Show and Tell - Emrakul
Yeah those counterbalance lists are probably going to be this deck's toughest matchup. The best strategy I've found so far is S&T, but even still, they have Jace and possibly Oblivion Ring/Karakas to deal with Emrakul. Though, if you can get S&T to resolve and put in Progenitus, it might go better, but they still might have Moat, Humility, Peacekeeper, etc. Yeah, probably not going to be favorable any way you cut it.

For the Goblins, it's probably best to keep with the Ooze combo and bring in bounce as you've mentioned before. With Weirding and Stingscourger, Emrakul's not the best line of play, probably. And the bounce should be enough to get the Ooze combo through if it's just Leylines. If it's more than that, I can see it getting more tough, but Leyline shouldn't be much harder to fight through than something like Tormod's Crypt.

Karhumies

01-11-2011, 02:58 PM

Yeah those counterbalance lists are probably going to be this deck's toughest matchup. The best strategy I've found so far is S&T, but even still, they have Jace and possibly Oblivion Ring/Karakas to deal with Emrakul. Though, if you can get S&T to resolve and put in Progenitus, it might go better, but they still might have Moat, Humility, Peacekeeper, etc. Yeah, probably not going to be favorable any way you cut it.
This is exactly the MU where I want to test the SnT-Hive Mind-Pact combo. For everything else, I can settle for siding in the bounce and fighting the hate. Iona on :u: is also a valid meta option to supplement the SnT strategy: it's usually even better than Progenitus (except against the Uw ThopterSword variant with Karakas), because Progenitus will be hit in G3 by Llawan and/or Moat. Remember: they can not resolve a Jace (or Stifle their Dreadnought, for that matter) if Iona hits the table. Humility is not currently played in my meta.

One of mono-:u: counterbalance's weaknesses is not having relevant mc=3 for Counterbalance, so Wipe Away the C.Balance at opponent's EOT is a strong play. But 2x W.Away in SB was clearly not enough copies for this to work. 4x W.Away might be sufficient, but that will require further game testing. And 1xW.Away can only bounce the C.balance, not the gy hate if they have one->plan B in SB is required to beat these decks.

For the Goblins, it's probably best to keep with the Ooze combo and bring in bounce as you've mentioned before. With Weirding and Stingscourger, Emrakul's not the best line of play, probably. And the bounce should be enough to get the Ooze combo through if it's just Leylines. If it's more than that, I can see it getting more tough, but Leyline shouldn't be much harder to fight through than something like Tormod's Crypt.
For Leyline Goblins, Echoing Truth > Chain of Vapor > Wipe Away, because they might have 2 Leylines in opening hand or hardcast the second one on T4. Furthermore, Rishadan Port slows down casting W.Away significantly so saving in the mana costs is important. Especially if they keep tapping an Island, and since we only have 2 basic Islands in MD -> it's difficult to have :u::u:available at opponent's EOT. We need to either draw and use up a Lotus Petal, or fetch an UG Sea on opponent's turn (which can get Wastelanded to deny us mana needed for the following combo turn).

Echoing Truth is probably overall better card (than C.ofVapor), because we are bouncing stuff at opponent's EOT to combo off on our turn (to save mana), unlike ANT who want to up their storm count on their own turn. Even a 2-2 split between E.Truth and W.Away may be viable, depending on the meta.

Never really considered Swarm, though it could work well. I'd be interested in hearing how testing proves for those that attempt to use it.
Swarm has potential. However, I am unsure which strategy the Swarm should supplement, and what cards it should replace: it's a tight fit in the SB, especially if there is 4x bounce already. Once/if I can get this figured out, I'll start testing its usefulness.

pippo84

01-12-2011, 05:00 AM

As SB bounce spells I would suggest a split between Echoing Truth and Wipe Away, depending on how many bounce spells you want. I also like Hurkyl's Recall as a bounce in the side because it hits multiple artifacts together (Needle, Relic, Crypt).

Has anyone actually thought of adding some reanimator stuff in the SB? I mean,like going for Entomb + Reanimate on Iona etc.. Could be interesting to test with 2 x Entomb..

jamis

01-12-2011, 02:41 PM

I don't really see what the benefit of Entomb and Iona would be. You're still worried about the same cards as both the Ooze combo as well as the Show and Tell plan.

Karhumies

01-12-2011, 06:49 PM

I don't really see what the benefit of Entomb and Iona would be. You're still worried about the same cards as both the Ooze combo as well as the Show and Tell plan.

This.

It makes no sense at all to fight gy hate by transforming the deck into a Reanimator build. Show and Tell -> Iona is quite effective against blue decks, but you don't generally want to dedicate too many SB slots for additional copies of Iona (because Emrakul is better most of the time). On the other hand finding a singleton creature pretty much requires resolving a LDV. It's a trade-off, unless someone can come up with a better plan B for the sideboard.

For now, a 2-1-1 split between Emrakul-Progenitus-Iona with 4 Show and Tell seems like the most diversified and well-protected full-transformational plan, leaving us with 7 additional SB slots. Supposing 4x bounce (2x W.Away + 2x E.Truth), there are still 3 slots available (e.g. 2 Doomsday, 1 Shelldock Isle or 3x Xantid Swarm, which still needs to be tested).

dahcmai

01-13-2011, 01:03 AM

I use Shallow Graves so it's tricky to try and use Iona anyway. I only have Reanimate for her. I like the ability to "go off" at the end step to avoid counters. If it's a big benefit I could be convinced to go back to Exhume.

I do kind of like the idea of Xantid Swarm though it doesn't protect vs counterbalance. I'd almost rather have an abeyance except it's too expensive and doesn't totally turn off Counterbalance. I have played Storm quite a bit also and I found I like Revered Silence for Counterbalance the most. High possibility of using this since it's P tutorable. All you need is a trop to make it work and that's not much of a problem if you kill that irritating enchantment all day. You only need one so it doesn't even take up much space. Wipe Away is probably all you need though. It's easier to cast, less chance of actually life screwing you (not enough cards if they make you play it out), just not tutorable with the P tutor. I guess it's a matter of taste.

Right now i am trying to make that Hive Mind board work, but it takes a lot of room and requires a 3 card combo which sucks. Pact of Negation isn't the worst card ever, but I don't like casting it after a hive mind. You only seem to want it as you cast the S&T. For that case, I end up using Slaughter Pact also, and it stinks for the most part. I really don't want to use the Red one since it's so useless otherwise.

Makes me want to just go with needles and be done with it.

jamis

01-13-2011, 03:18 PM

Updated the OP a bit. Let me know if you think anything should be changed or want anything added.

Krieger

01-14-2011, 04:13 AM

I wrote up a quick mini report from a tournament that I played this past weekend and made top eight. Thirty seven players attended. Here is the list I played:

1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Aquamoeba

4 Buried Alive
4 Ponder
1 Personal Tutor
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Reanimate
2 Exhume

4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will

4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

1 Swamp
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Bloodstaind mire

SB:

4 Burning Wish
4 Show and Tell
1 Meltdown
1 Duress
1 Eye to nowhere
4 Emrakul

In nearly every matchup my sideboarding was identical. Which was:

-2 Exhume
-1 Reanimate
-1 Buried Alive
-4 Lotus Petal
-1 Lim Duls vault

+4 Emrakul
+3 Show and Tell
+4 Burning Wish

I really like the configuration although The wishes seems like a waste of sideboard space and I had trouble getting them into the main deck as I wanted to maintain a reasonable blue count for Force of Will.

Round 1 Permanent Waves. 2-1

This match goes to three games. It was very back and forth except in the last game he keep a land light hand and got a cantrip thought seized which allowed me to show and tell into Emrakuland annihilate him.

Round 2 Junk 2-0

This was fairly simple as he didn't have a first turn discard and I was able to force later attempts at discard.

In the second games he didn't bring in hate and didn't have any action so I showed him a huge Emrakul and he died in short order.

Round 3 Pox 1-2

This matchup was very difficult mainly due to the major amounts of discard and edict effects that he has (pox, small pox, edict etc.). I lose the first and win the second but couldn't combo though the needle he had in play on Ooze and didn't find an answer and died to Ceramic idols.

Round 4 imperial painter 2-1

I loose game one when he get an early blood moon and I am unable get the black source or the reanimate before I die to magus and Imperial Recruiter beats.

In game two he plays an early moon but I am able to fetch for basics and am unaffected. He plays Imperial Recruiter and tutors for fairy macabre. I have Show and tell plus force back up and win in short order.

Last Game I go for it hoping he doesn't have the macabre in hand he doesn't and I win.

Round 5 New Horizons

My opponent mulls to five and doesn't play Karakas or grave hat in his 75. I win easily.

Round 6 ID Goblins.

Top 8 New Horizons

It's a rematch from round 5 and he takes me down in thee close ones.

The sideboard transformational sideboard worked out perfectly and I didn't really have any problems at all, except the wishes taking up so much space in the board. I'm not sure that that sideboard would be ideal for a larger metagame; luckily i wasn't paired against any jace decks or decks that could find Karakas in time.

I was a few people with alternate win conditions as well most notably Leyline Helm. The only problem I can see is in the build suggested helm was only a singleton. how exacly do you find it ? You Vault/ cantrip into it?. It's hard to tell if this would be stronger than Show and Tell and Emrakul.

pippo84

01-14-2011, 04:30 AM

Congratz on the finish!

How where the Burning Wishes? I am asking because I didn't try them and I'm playing the UB list.

In nearly every matchup my sideboarding was identical. Which was:

-2 Exhume
-1 Reanimate
-1 Buried Alive
-4 Lotus Petal
-1 Lim Duls vault

+4 Emrakul
+3 Show and Tell
+4 Burning Wish

Did you side out 9 cards and side in 11? If you did, well, it's game loss..

Krieger

01-14-2011, 04:40 AM

I side out a few other cards as well. I can't remember off the top of my head. I have the guide i wrote up at home i'll post it if i remember.

The wishes proved to be very strong allowing me to easily play both combos and be very flexable depending on what hate I saw. My main concern was ( as mentioned before) is the blue count in the maindeck and the wasted spots from the wishes in the board.

jamis

01-14-2011, 03:17 PM

Krieger

01-14-2011, 06:16 PM

Congrats on the top 8!

To be honest, your list is really the first implementation of Burning Wish that I've liked. Having them in the board let's you still be explosive game 1, and then game 2, it lets you have access to both combos against all decks, something that UB only lets you do against non-blue decks.

Is there a reason you only ran 1 Personal Tutor, other than not being able to find additional copies? Just wondering if it was intentional or due to Portal's scarcity.

That was one thing I like about the sideboard too. I saw the idea earlier in the thread from Karhumies.

The reason for the lack of personal tutors are due to availability. Although I'm unsure how much card disadvantage you'd want, with Lim Duls vault and personal tutor it can add up against decks where attrition is important. I'm not sure it's possible that differant configuration of lim duls vault/ personal tutor/ ponder is correct.

SarBashar

01-16-2011, 11:15 PM

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]In nearly every matchup my sideboarding was identical. Which was:

-2 Exhume
-1 Reanimate
-1 Buried Alive
-4 Lotus Petal
-1 Lim Duls vault

+4 Emrakul
+3 Show and Tell
+4 Burning Wish

The main deck is solid, and I have a very high win percentage.
I have not constructed the sideboard as you have yet, but I am curious, on what turn do you usually land emrakul when you employ that plan?
Presently, I have 4x Show and Tell/4x Emrakul in the board, and I simply side into that plan entirely, but it seems slow; I have difficulty assembling the combo pieces, and emrakul always lands late for me; in almost every instance, I would be better off defending the ooze combo.

So, with the plan you outline, on what turn do you usually drop emrakul?

pippo84

01-17-2011, 04:40 AM

The main deck is solid, and I have a very high win percentage.
I have not constructed the sideboard as you have yet, but I am curious, on what turn do you usually land emrakul when you employ that plan?
Presently, I have 4x Show and Tell/4x Emrakul in the board, and I simply side into that plan entirely, but it seems slow; I have difficulty assembling the combo pieces, and emrakul always lands late for me; in almost every instance, I would be better off defending the ooze combo.

So, with the plan you outline, on what turn do you usually drop emrakul?

Same happened to me!! :mad:

That's why I'm trying to fight hate atm and maybe leave just 2 Show & Tell and 2 Fatties in the board just as a plan B).

What do you suggest as the best SB to fight hate?

pocari79

01-17-2011, 03:53 PM

I went to a small tournament with the deck. Posted the tournament report at the reports section of this forum. Any feedback is appreciated!!

dahcmai

01-19-2011, 09:03 PM

pippo84

01-20-2011, 04:34 AM

My board is slowly drifting toward this.

4 Pithing Needle
2 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul
1 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
1 Eye of Nowhere

I play with 3 Personal Tutors in the main just so you know why the Shows and Eye are there in light numbers.

Needles work out great for fighting hate. It's always Crypt, Relic, Macabre, or something like that. Leyline is the only one I have a problem with really and I bring the Eye in just in case usually.

Has anyone considered running Sadistic Sacrament in the SB?

I think that opening with Land, Dark Ritual, Sadisic Sacrament could be quite good actually. Well, even if it's not the first turn it doesn't seem ban on the paper.

Btw my SB is alsomoving in a direction similars to yours..

Karhumies

01-20-2011, 10:01 PM

Congrats to Krieger and pocari74 for your top 8 and 4 (respectively) finishes!

pocari74:

Comments about the list
+ 2-2 split of Emrakul-Progenitus in the board, as it makes it possible to LDV either one without too much life loss
+ 2x City of Traitors in MD
- 4x FoW in SB, I would rather run them MD instead of the extra Moxes or leave them out completely

Suggestions:
Have you tested Ancient Tomb; is the cumulative life loss too significant?

Krieger:

"The only problem I can see is in the build suggested helm was only a singleton. how exacly do you find it ?"

I was running Helm-line because my :r: duals were caught up in the mail before the tournament, thus rendering me unable to splash :r: for Burning Wish. So I basically replaced 4xB.Wish, 1xEmrakul with 5 slots of Helm-line (and removed wishboard for bounce effects). My chosen method of "fighting the gy hate", then, was having 2 separate combos SB, with Helm-line always being the #2 fallback option after BA or SnT plan fails. Therefore, only 1 copy of Helm to save SB space and to reduce any chance of drawing into it accidentally. After all, my main plan was ALWAYS to either BA-Ooze or SnT-fatty ftw (only exception: when I got Leyline into opening hand). When main plan failed, LDV for any amount of life to find the 1-of was reasonable in exchange for a chance to still win the game. Mostly, the 1-of was supposed to supplement the SB of 4x Leyline as grave hate vs Dredge, a popular deck in my meta, and to grant a "plan B". Against decks with a really slow clock (and there were lots mono-:u:), I did even opponent's EOT LDV->Leyline 1st, LDV 2nd, draw and cast Leyline - go, draw and cast 2nd LDV ->Helm on top, draw and cast Helm ftw.

I have not tested Helm-Line as a complete replacement for SnT-Emrakul, but then I would run the Helm as 3-of or 4-of. It might actually do well in today's meta. At least, it would have helped pocari74 in his Pox MU.

EDIT: Key logic with Helm-line
You ALWAYS want Leyline 1st, Helm 2nd.

Reason 1) With Leyline active, you can cast Helm and when it resolves, activate it with X=1 without passing priority (like Sneak Attack is used in Sneaky Show). This way you can win through opposing instant artifact hate.

Reason 2) Leyline in opening hand = save 4 mana. Helm in opening hand = semi-dead card.

Reason 3) Multiple Leylines in opening hand = save 4 mana + protection vs one-of hate (except Echoing Truth, Maelstrom Pulse). Multiple Helms in opening hand = semi-dead card + rest are completely dead cards.

Reason 4) Leyline cast at 4 mana, pass turn, +1 mana source (e.g. land drop) for Helm cast at 4 mana + activate with 5th mana.

Therefore, you want to maximize Leyline copy amount but not necessarily maximize copies of Helm. Because once Helm resolves, you should win immediately = you only need the Helm for the last turn in the game.

pippo84

01-21-2011, 05:10 AM

@Karhumies:

I also play 2 City of Traitors in the deck. I started with 3, but lowered it because I opened a few times with double City and no lands and it was a mulligan obviously.

Anyways having a 2 mana land is useful, it accelerates the deck a lot.You just drop it when you are going to combo so Ancient Tomb is not really needed because of the life loss.

If you count Thoughtseize, Reanimate and maybe Force of Will + Fetchlands the life loss of Ancient Tomb can be a problem against fast decks. Once I played against a BWR deck that played lots of "burn spells" like Lightning Bolt, Price of Progress and Fireblast and I won at 1 life. Having Ancient Tomb there would have been a loss, and City of Traitors was a win. This can be exceptional, but I suggest City if you want to play "double mana lands".

Remember that playing City or Tomb limits you to a UB deck with no splash available because of the otherwise unstable manabase..

Btw who has tested Leyline-Helm as a SB combo? How did it go?

pocari79

01-21-2011, 07:59 AM

Karhumies

01-21-2011, 06:54 PM

I'm not too satisified with the FoW in the sideboard either but it did help me win a game. However, I couldn't think of anything else to side in that can help the deck when it becomes a show and tell deck. If you have any suggestions on what to replace the forces with I'd appreciate it.

Taking the rest of your list into account, here's my thoughts (although they may all be worse than FoW):
Back to Basics
additional bounce spells
Chains of Mephistoteles
Cunning Wish + very small wishboard (Shallow Grave, bounce cards, others?)

pippo84

01-24-2011, 06:45 AM

Well, yesterday I partecipated at a tournament with this deck and even though it didn't go well I want to share this experience with you.

First thing, the list (I'll make some changes to it):

4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 City of Traitors
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Personal Tutor
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Pact of Negation
4 Thoughtseize
4 Reanimate
2 Exhume
4 Buried Alive
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Triskelion
1 Aquamoeba

Side:

3 Pithing Needle
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurlkey's Recall
3 Spell Pierce
3 Doomsday
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul
1 Cloud of Faeries

Comments and changes on my list and SB will be made soon.

The tournament: (didn't take notes)

Round 1, Rock. Win 2-1

Game 1: He wins the die roll and starts with Thoughtseize. Next turn he drops Knight of the Reliquiary and then Goyf. He never taps the Knight to keep it active for Bojuka Bog. I could have comboed the turn that the knight became active!! I lose..
Game 2: I board in Needles and Bounce spells. I expect Extirpate, I play out and Thoughtseize him before comboing off.
Game 3: At some point of the Game he plays Needle. I am able to combo off 2 turns later.

Round 2, Depths-Rock. Win 2-1

Game 1: He wins the die roll. Land go. I thoughtseize. He has the nuts! Including 2 Crop Rotation for Bojuka! Then he Hymns me. He casts Hexmage + Depths and has 1 free green mana. I don't see a counter and lose having the combo in hand.
Game 2: I use my SB plan. Fast Doomsday and win. (had both comboes in the deck)
Game 3: I get a Pithink Needle on Wasteland (maybe did it also before) and Doomsday for Emrakul having some combo pieces in hand.

Round 3, RG Goblins Loss 0-2

Game 1: He has a fast start. I land an Underground Sea that gets wasted and lose 1 turn before comboing out (because of that wasteland..no I just had Underground Seas in my hand)
Game 2: He draws the nuts! Rishadan Port slows me down. I just thoughtseized him and he has just lands in hand. I can combo off next turn because of the ports.. I have lots of life, he draws Piledriver and does something like 15+ dmg. The only card that would let him win...

Round 4, URB Dreadstill Tie 1-1

Game 1: He opens with Volcanic Island go. I put him on Canadian or Dreadstill. I play fetch and go. Then I start Thoughtseizing him in the next turns. Take away all his business (counterbalance and stifles) and combo off ftw.
Game 2: He casts Standstill and beats me with Factories. I'm on mana screw and he wins.
Game 3: I try to combo but I'm stopped from his counters. Time is called, I play conservately not to lose to a fast Nought.

Round 5, Rock win 2-1

Game 1: I mull to 3 (had previously mulled in the tournament, but not this low). I never saw a land before those 3 cards so I had to mull. I start with Polluted go. He does Scrubland go. Then I play Island and have a Reanimate and a Dark Ritual in hand now. He casts Thoughtseize I concede without showing wim my deck.
Game 2: It's the nuts. Swamp, Ritual, Ritual, Buried Alive, Reanimate GG.
Game 3: He starts with Wasteland, Top. I play Pithing Needle on Top. I combo on turn 2.

Round 6, Goblins: Win 2-0

Game 1: I combo off easily on turn 3.
Game 2: I get some damage (12) from Goblin Tokens. Had a Echoing Truth that I could have used but didn't need to as I had just Aquamoeba and Echoing as a pitch to Force of Will (just in case of GY hate). I combo off after those 12 damage that I could have avoided..

Round 7, Landeed Lose 1-2. Who wins is in Top 8

Game 1: I know the guy and put him on ANT. He starts with Underground Sea go. I ponder. He then plays Brainstorm and Fetches for Tundra. I combo off. He plays Force of Will pitching Jace. I Force back with Pact backup and win.
Game 2: I try 3 Doomsday in 2 Turns and he counters 2. I resolve one and put Pithing Needle for Wasteland in the wrong card slot!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF!!! He casts a Tombstalker and I am at low life. He also draws wasteland and wastes my Isle because of my mistake. How to miss a top8 because of my mistake!!!!! :mad:
Game 3: Game under Standstill. I break it with Brainstorm Eot. He counters. I thoughtseize him in my turn and see: 3 Force of Will, 1 Counterspell, 1 Tombstalker and 2 Standstill. I take Stalker and make him waste some counters. I then try to combo next turn. He drew Extirpate as that turn's card!!!!! I then have to search for Doomsday. He gets a Stalker online before I find my Doomsday and lose.

Anyway I'm happy of how the deck played, some changes are necessary though. Got 15th out of 66 btw.
I'll post comments on my list and the cards that I liked/disliked soon.

Jander78

01-24-2011, 10:48 AM

Great Job pippo! I placed in top16 (out of 106) as well this weekend at Jupiter's Dual Land Draft.

Here's the build I played:

1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Aquamoeba

4 Buried Alive
3 Personal Tutor
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Reanimate
2 Exhume

4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will

4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
2 City of Traitors
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard:
2 Progenitus
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Show and Tell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Echoing Truth

A quick rundown of the tournament from memory:

Round1 - Chuck playing New Horizons
Game 1: I assemble a turn three win but spend turn 3 casting thoughtseize and see double Force of Will and no other blue card. So I take a FoW and pass. He draws, plays Horizon Canopy and draws another card. I try to go off on my turn, but he snagged a Daze and I was short the extra mana. Knight of the Reliquary finishes me off.
Game 2: Turn 2 Emrakul that he can't handle.
Game 3: I can't assemble either combo in time and he gets a Knight down. My only chance is Progenitus at this point because he can insta-tutor for Bajuka Bog or Karakas killing either the Ooze combo or Emrakul. I don't find a Progenitus and lose quickly to a giant Knight.
0-1 (1-2)

Round 2 - Kurt playing Goblins
Game 1: He has a crazy fast start, but can't kill me by turn 3 where I combo off.
Game 2: He plays a Tormod's Crypt. I Show a turn 2 Emrakul and win shortly after.
1-1 (3-2)

Round 3 - Alex playing CounterTop
Game 1: He tries a first turn top. I have a turn 3 combo in my hand, so I FoW top, and proceed to win. He has no answer.
Game 2: He plays Counterbalance, I show and Emrakul on my next turn.
2-1 (5-2)

Round 4 - Andy playing Belcher
Game 1: I have no idea what he's playing, but I keep a hand that has FoW and Brainstorm, Personal Tutor, and mana. He tries for a turn 1 Belcher, but I counter. That buys me enough time to win by turn 3.
Game 2: I mull to 4 cards not seeing any land. My 4 card hand was FoW, Brainstorm, and 2x's Emrakul. He goes for the turn 1 combo. I counter. I proceed to draw FoW and Brainstorm my next two turns. He tries again to combo on turn 4 and I counter. Eventually around turn 6 or so, I draw a land and have the show and tell ready for Emrakul and proceed to win.
3-1 (7-2)

Round 5 - Trey playing Zoo
Game 1: He has me at 1 life when I combo out.
Game 2: I show an Emrakul on turn 2 and destroy his board.
4-1 (9-2)

Round 6 - Seneca playing Junk
This was the worst beating I've ever had with this deck.
Game 1: I Thoughtseize turn 1 and see he has a hand of 2x Thoughtseize, Bojuka Bog, Karakas, other land. Great. I take the Dark Confidant. he Thoughtseizes me and takes a LDV. I draw the Trisk on my turn and pass. He Hymns me and gets the Trisk and something else. I can't win on my next turn and he just plays the Bog and I have no chance of winning from there on with one of my combo pieces removed from the game.
Game 2: This one was almost worse. He gets a lot of early disruption (Thoughtseize, Hymn, Vindicate) and a turn 3 Knight of the Reliquary seals the game. My only hope was Progenitus, but Knight was much faster than it.
4-2 (9-4)

Round 7 - Mike playing Lands
Game 1: He drops Exploration, another land. I play a land and lotus petal. He drops a land, casts Loam and gets another land. I EOT LDV and set up the win for turn 2.
Game 2: I felt bad on this one. He plays a turn 1 Confidant off of land - mox diamond. I have a turn two Ooze win in my hand, but proceed to draw a Lotus Petal for my turn giving me enough mana to win on turn one. Sorry Mike....
5-2 (11-4)

So I get into the top 16. The deck played well and I'm happy with how it performed. Knight of the Reliquary is really the card that beat me. I'll have to be more proactive against them and bring in the Echoing Truth's against any deck running them.

pippo84

01-24-2011, 11:08 AM

Congratz on the finish Jander!

Nice to see your updated list. How where the Chrome Mox?

Glad to read that the Show & Tell plan worked greatly for you! I opted for Doomsday + Shelldock + Emrakul + Cloud of Faeries in the board. It's 6 slots instead of 8 and unless you do the wrong Doomsday pile it's almost a sure win. I think it's synergic with the deck because Doomsday can be cast right off a Dark Ritual and the good things are that you actually cast Emrakul gaining an extra turn and without giving a free drop to the opponent. Another thing is that this way you are less vulnerable to Karakas and Jace..

From my list I will drop Pact of Negation. It's been great in testing, but it's only useful against opponents that play Blue. Will swap them for some Spell Pierce/Ponder in the MD.
I will also add the 4th Pithing Needle, it's absolutely amazing! Hurlekey's Recall was useless and also the other bounce spells where underwhelming..
Stifle would have been a good option in the MD/SB against Bojuka Bog or against Karakas. Maybe I'll add these in the MD instead of Pact to slow the opponent (fetches) and Stifle harmful triggers.

Mister Agent

01-24-2011, 12:19 PM

Great job on the finish Rick!(Jander)

I am not really that surprised that you were able to beat a good portion of the field because your deck seems quite strong and I liked the deck when you showed me the list through pm a couple of weeks ago. Glad I was able to help you test out your deck some.

Also, I like how you have a choice between either winning with show and tell or necrotic ooze especially after sideboard. Although, maybe you could find a way to fit both into the main deck since you also run personal tutors.

I do have one question though, what would you board out for echoing truth against New horizons?

Again, congrats on your finish! It's good you found a way to win in legacy again. Whenever you want advice and/or want help testing you know where to reach me Rick.

Jander78

01-24-2011, 02:03 PM

Nice to see your updated list. How where the Chrome Mox?
Chrome Mox was good. Not amazing, but the extra early mana was very helpful. In testing it was the difference between a turn 1 or turn 2 LDV, so it stayed in and I was happy with it. It's also helpful against decks packing Daze.

Glad to read that the Show & Tell plan worked greatly for you! I opted for Doomsday + Shelldock + Emrakul + Cloud of Faeries in the board. It's 6 slots instead of 8 and unless you do the wrong Doomsday pile it's almost a sure win. I think it's synergic with the deck because Doomsday can be cast right off a Dark Ritual and the good things are that you actually cast Emrakul gaining an extra turn and without giving a free drop to the opponent. Another thing is that this way you are less vulnerable to Karakas and Jace..
I thought of the Doomsday route, but figured I would be battling Wastelands and / or Burn too much to make it worth while. It's still a great option for a transitional sideboard in the right environment.

From my list I will drop Pact of Negation. It's been great in testing, but it's only useful against opponents that play Blue. Will swap them for some Spell Pierce/Ponder in the MD.
I felt the same. I don't think it's worth while having more than 8 control cards in the main deck.

I will also add the 4th Pithing Needle, it's absolutely amazing! Hurlekey's Recall was useless and also the other bounce spells where underwhelming..
Stifle would have been a good option in the MD/SB against Bojuka Bog or against Karakas. Maybe I'll add these in the MD instead of Pact to slow the opponent (fetches) and Stifle harmful triggers.
I didn't run into too many instances where Pithing Needle would have been great. I imagine Needle is almost required with the Doomsday combo to keep Wasteland in check. Against Knight of the Reliquary it's awesome, but I think Stifle is the more versitle card and can buy the turn you need to beat the opponent.

Also, I like how you have a choice between either winning with show and tell or necrotic ooze especially after sideboard. Although, maybe you could find a way to fit both into the main deck since you also run personal tutors.
Well, the maindeck is pretty good. I don't think we have to worry about alternate win conditions since almost no decks run MD graveyard hate. So game 1 is usually favorable.

I do have one question though, what would you board out for echoing truth against New horizons?

I would board like this against New Horizons:
-1 Aquamoeba
-1 Buried Alive
-2 Exhume
-1 LDV
-2 Ponder
-1 Personal Tutor
-1 Chrome Mox
-2 Lotus Petal

+2 Progenitus
+2 Emrakul
+4 Show and Tell
+3 Echoing Truth