R/u/x Blue Sligh [Archive]

Hanni

02-16-2012, 06:49 PM

Current list, as of 9/9/2020

R/u Sligh

Lands (18)
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

Creatures (16)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Akoum Hellhound
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide

Spells (26)
4 Brainstorm
2 Light Up the Stage
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
2 Fireblast

Sideboard (15)
4 Force of Will
4 Force of Negation
4 Smash to Smithereens
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle

Old list, as of 7/2/2018

R/u Sligh

Lands (18)
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
4 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

Creatures (14)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Forked Bolt
2 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast

Sideboard (15)
4 Smash to Smithereens
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Seal of Removal
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle

Old list from 3/26/2012:

R/U/w Blue Sligh
Quickdraw, the Six Shooter

// Lands (18)
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [U] Plateau
1 [U] Tundra
1 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures (16)
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
2 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
2 [M12] Phantasmal Bear
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx

// Spells (26)
4 [NE] Daze
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
3 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 2 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [TE] Disenchant
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

Original Post:

Intro

I know there's a million and one U/R/x threads all over The Source, with all sorts of variations. I mean, you've got one for Snapcaster Control, one for U/R Delver (pretty generic), one for Blue Zoo... the list goes on. I felt that there wasn't a thread specifically dedicated to this approach for the deck, so I decided to make a thread.

For me personally, this idea started in the Blue Zoo thread after the spoiling of Mental Misstep. At that time, I was trying to make a 4c Blue Zoo deck work. It had some strong matchups, but fell flat on its face against decks like The Rock, Maverick, and Big Zoo. The problem was, I was too much of an aggro/control deck, and not enough of a Zoo deck. Force of Will does not belong in that deck, at least maindeck, period.

So why split this up from Blue Zoo? Well, there's always been a fundamental difference between Sligh and Zoo. Zoo tends to play a much larger creature density, with burn being used primarily as removal. In fact, most traditional Zoo lists only run 7 burn spells (and 3-4 Path to Exile). Sligh, on the other hand, has a much smaller creature density, and a much larger burn density. Fundamentally, Sligh is a deck that wants to drop creatures on turns 1-3 and swing as aggressively as possible, and then switch over to being a burn deck, pointing all of the rest of the burn it has or draws at the opponent's face to end the game as fast as possible.

Why split this up from U/R Delver? Well, while there are some lists in that thread that are very close to this idea, there are also alot of lists that are drastically different. This deck is not an aggro/control deck. Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, Stifle, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, and Force of Will do not belong in the maindeck. This deck is primarily red based as opposed to primarily blue based.

Here is the core, that all Blue Sligh lists should contain:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning

Some may question the inclusion and validity of Brainstorm as a core card, citing examples of it being bad for tempo or some such nonsense. Let's get the facts straight; Brainstorm accelerates the tempo far more than it loses it, by going through 3 draw steps worth of cards, flitering out the chaff. You don't play Brainstorm on turn 1, unless you absolutely have to. You don't play Brainstorm on turn 2 unless you have a Delver, or you absolutely have to. Brainstorm is meant to be utilized once you've run out of spells to curve out with; Brainstorm is meant to dig 3 deep to set up the kill and get rid of excess lands and unecessary creatures. Ever play Burn? Ever been in a position where you're 1 burn spell away from killing the opponent, only to topdeck 2 lands and a Grim Lavamancer, and die before you can activate him? Say hello to Brainstorm.

Past the rest of the core cards, which I should hope need no explanation, there is a fairly sizable list of other playable spells. Also, as the title suggests, a splash is very feasible, and likely better than straight R/u.

I'll be more than happy to update this list as more suggestions are given. For now, I'll just list the remaining cards that I am running, along with a few other valuable options:

Grim Lavamancer
Phantasmal Bear
Wild Nacatl
Steppe Lynx
Kird Ape
Kiln Fiend
Tarmogoyf
Daze
Ponder
Magma Jet
Fire/Ice
Rift Bolt
Fireblast
Searing Blaze
Forked Bolt
Price of Progress
Tribal Flames
Lightning Helix
Cursed Scroll

Anyway, let me start off with my current list to get things started:

R/u/w Blue Sligh

// Lands (18)
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [U] Plateau
1 [U] Tundra
1 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures (15)
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx

// Spells (27)
4 [NE] Daze
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
3 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 2 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [TE] Disenchant
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge

Explanation:

This deck is pure aggression. Everything in the deck is designed to maximize early game damage output. Delver changed the dynamics of aggressive decks in the format. On all accounts, this is simply a Sligh deck with the most aggressive 1 drops in the format.

For my particular build, I've decided that the white splash offered me the most bang for my buck. The heavy fetchland manabase synergizes well with Grim Lavamancer, and obviously for Steppe Lynx. For this deck, Steppe Lynx is a Tarmogoyf for 1 mana. The deck cares little about its creatures past turn 4; Lynx being a dead draw in the midgame isn't very relevant. Swinging as a 4/5 on turns 2 and 3 is about as nut high as it gets. This deck is about as best a shell as any deck is going to be for Steppe Lynx in the format, and I'm even running Daze to enable it as a Loam Lion should that be necessary.

Grim Lavamancer is somewhat conflicting with the general aggressive nature of the deck, since it's a bit slow and a bit inefficient at doing damage (for the cost). However, it's still a body to increase my potential "Zoo-rush" during the early game (overloading the opponent's removal with 1 drops), it's in my primary color, and it gives the deck lasting strength should it need the extra reach in the midgame. The fact that 2 targetable damage is so relevant in the metagame right now, makes it worth the space.

Daze is such a powerful card for this deck. This deck functions off of 1 mana, and never needs more than 3 lands in play. Daze is a free Counterspell on turns 1-2 almost always, and is still very effective on turns 3-4. Turns 1-4 are the most important turns of the game for this deck, so Daze does exactly what this deck wants it to do. Being set back a land drop is irrelevant, and in fact, can actually be a good thing for prolonging Steppe Lynx's damage capabilities. The fact is, Daze is an extremely aggressive card. The ability to drop a guy on turn 1 and protect him maximizes the decks damage output. If Daze counters a turn 1 Swords to Plowshares on Steppe Lynx, who turns around and puts out 8 damage, Daze effectively becomes worth 8 damage for 0 mana.

Magma Jet is a great card in this deck. I've heard the argument before of Ponder being better, since Ponder can essentially be 3 damage for 2 mana (digging into a Bolt). The thing is, this deck only runs 19 burn spells (if you don't count Guide or Lavamancer), which is roughly 1/3 of the deck. If the Jets were replaced with Ponder's, the deck would drop down to 15 burn spells, or 1/4 of the deck. At 1/4, Ponder is not guaranteed to draw into a burn spell. Magma Jet is always 2 damage for 2 mana; the increased burn density is a beautiful thing. As I mentioned earlier, 2 targetable damage is extremely relevant in the format right now, making Magma Jet a fantastic burn spell.

Rift Bolt is another 1cc 3 damage burn spell that dodges Daze, Spell Snare, and Counterbalance. It also targets creatures. Shouldn't need any additional explanation.

Fireblast is this decks finisher, able to speed up the goldfish by an entire turn in many cases. It also has great synergy with Price of Progress out of the sideboard, tapping and sac'ing nonbasic red sources for Fireblast prior to casting Price of Progress, resulting in decreased self-inflicted damage. I run 3 copies because I definitely want to see one, and I run enough manipulation with 4 Brainstorm and 4 Magma Jet to avoid drawing multiple copies. Even in the event of drawing two, sometimes the deck (and gamestate) will get to 4 red sources, making the second copy castable.

As with all sideboards, they are changeable and adaptable to the metagame. For right now, I'm packing Spell Pierce to address combo, Price of Progress and Red Elemental Blast to address control (REB can also address combo), Shattering Spree and Disenchant to answer problematic artifacts/enchantments (though Smash to Smithereens is a great replacement for Spree if you're not expecting Chalice), and Submerge for anything with Forests and aggro.

Thanks for reading.

Hanni

02-16-2012, 06:49 PM

Reserved.

Hanni

02-16-2012, 09:21 PM

Oh, and for those who are curious about the Stoneblade matchup, I've been tearing it up left and right on MWS. Here's a good tidbit from a game I just played.

<New Game: waiting for opponent>
Hanni shuffles library
<Hanni> i r srs cat, this r srs deck
Hanni draws 0 cards
t shuffles library
<t> I am ready.
t draws 0 cards
<-------- New Game Started -------->
Hanni's Security Code: C2D4DF48 [Type 1.5]
t's Security Code: 5E5559E5 [Type 1.5]
It is now turn 1 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
<Hanni> hi
<t> hi
t shuffles library
Hanni rolled a 6, using a 20 sided die
t shuffles library
t rolled a 3, using a 20 sided die
t draws 7 cards
Hanni draws 7 cards
<t> kp
<Hanni> kp
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Hanni plays Tundra from Hand
Hanni taps Tundra
Hanni plays Steppe Lynx from Hand
<Hanni> Ok?
<Hanni> End my turn
It is now turn 2 (t)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
t draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
t plays Scalding Tarn from Hand
t taps Scalding Tarn
t puts Scalding Tarn to Graveyard from Play
t's life total is now 19 (-1)
t is looking its Library...
t puts Volcanic Island into play from Library
t shuffles library
t stops looking its Library...
t taps Volcanic Island
t plays Lightning Bolt from Hand
Hanni puts Steppe Lynx to Graveyard from Play
t puts Lightning Bolt to Graveyard from Play
<t> End my turn
It is now turn 3 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
Hanni untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Hanni draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Hanni plays Mountain from Hand
Hanni taps Mountain
Hanni plays Grim Lavamancer from Hand
<Hanni> Ok?
<Hanni> End my turn
It is now turn 4 (t)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
t untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
t draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
t taps Volcanic Island
t plays Lightning Bolt from Hand
Hanni puts Grim Lavamancer to Graveyard from Play
t puts Lightning Bolt to Graveyard from Play
t plays Tundra from Hand
<t> End my turn
It is now turn 5 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
Hanni untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Hanni draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Hanni plays Flooded Strand from Hand
Hanni taps Tundra
Hanni plays Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration from Hand
<Hanni> Ok?
<t> Ok
<Hanni> End my turn
It is now turn 6 (t)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
t untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
t draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
t plays Scalding Tarn from Hand
t taps Volcanic Island
t taps Tundra
t plays Stoneforge Mystic from Hand
<t> Ok?
<Hanni> Ok
t is looking its Library...
t puts Batterskull into play from Library
t shuffles library
t stops looking its Library...
t puts Batterskull to Hand from Play
<t> End my turn
<Hanni> EOT
Hanni puts Flooded Strand to Graveyard from Play
Hanni's life total is now 19 (-1)
<Hanni> Ok?
<t> Ok
Hanni is looking its Library...
Hanni puts Volcanic Island into play from Library
Hanni shuffles library
Hanni stops looking its Library...
Hanni taps Mountain
Hanni taps Volcanic Island
Hanni plays Magma Jet from Hand
<Hanni> Ok?
t puts Stoneforge Mystic to Graveyard from Play
Hanni is looking top 2 cards of its Library...
Hanni rearranges cards in Hanni's Library
Hanni stops looking its Library...
Hanni puts Magma Jet to Graveyard from Play
<Hanni> Ok
It is now turn 7 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
Hanni untaps his/her permanents
Hanni puts Magma Jet into play from Library
Hanni puts Magma Jet to Hand from Play
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Hanni draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Hanni undone last draw [1 card(s)]
<Hanni> sorry
Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration is now 3/2
It is now the Combat Phase, Declare Attackers Step
Hanni taps Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
Hanni taps Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
t's life total is now 16 (-3)
It is now the Postcombat Main Phase
Hanni taps Mountain
Hanni plays Rift Bolt from Hand
Rift Bolt now has 1 (+1) counters.
<Hanni> End my turn
t taps Scalding Tarn
t puts Scalding Tarn to Graveyard from Play
t's life total is now 15 (-1)
t is looking its Library...
t puts Plateau into play from Library
t shuffles library
t stops looking its Library...
It is now turn 8 (t)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
t untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
t draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
t taps Tundra
t plays Swords to Plowshares from Hand
Hanni puts Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration to RFG from Play
t puts Swords to Plowshares to Graveyard from Play
Hanni's life total is now 22 (+3)
t plays Island from Hand
<t> End my turn
<Hanni> EOT
<Hanni> Thinking
Hanni taps Volcanic Island
Hanni plays Lightning Bolt from Hand
t's life total is now 12 (-3)
Hanni puts Lightning Bolt to Graveyard from Play
It is now turn 9 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
Hanni untaps his/her permanents
t's life total is now 9 (-3)
Hanni puts Rift Bolt to Graveyard from Play
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Hanni draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
<Hanni> End my turn
It is now turn 10 (t)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
t untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
t draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
t plays Mountain from Hand
t plays Batterskull from Hand
t taps Volcanic Island
t taps Tundra
t taps Plateau
t taps Island
t taps Mountain
<t> Ok?
<Hanni> resp
Hanni taps Tundra
Hanni taps Mountain
Hanni plays Magma Jet from Hand
t's life total is now 8 (-1)
t's life total is now 7 (-1)
Hanni is looking top 2 cards of its Library...
t puts a 4/4 Germ token into play
Hanni puts a card on bottom of Library from Library
Batterskull is enchanting Germ now
Hanni stops looking its Library...
Hanni puts Magma Jet to Graveyard from Play
<t> End my turn
<Hanni> Thinking
Hanni taps Volcanic Island
Hanni untaps Volcanic Island
<Hanni> Thinking
It is now turn 11 (Hanni)
It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
Hanni untaps his/her permanents
It is now the Beginning Phase, Draw Step
Hanni draws a card
It is now the Precombat Main Phase
Hanni taps Tundra
Hanni plays Brainstorm from Hand
<Hanni> Ok?
<t> Ok
Hanni draws a card
Hanni draws a card
Hanni draws a card
Hanni puts a card on top of Library from Hand
Hanni puts a card on top of Library from Hand
Hanni puts Brainstorm to Graveyard from Play
Hanni taps Mountain
Hanni plays Lightning Bolt from Hand
t's life total is now 4 (-3)
Hanni puts Lightning Bolt to Graveyard from Play
Hanni taps Volcanic Island
Hanni plays Fireblast from Hand
Hanni puts Mountain to Graveyard from Play
Hanni puts Volcanic Island to Graveyard from Play
<System> Player Lost
<Hanni> Ok?

Bolded the important stuff. Preboard game. I was on the play and dealt lethal on my turn 6. He scooped.

Honoluluicecaps

02-16-2012, 10:25 PM

This is almost the exact direction that I have wanted the U/R delver deck to go, so I really like the list.

I would personally prefer PoP MD over Magma Jet, in something like 3x PoP and 1x Ponder split, but that's just because my meta is full of Patriot and Bant.

ajfennewald

02-16-2012, 11:26 PM

here is my tribal flames version
4 scalding tarn
4 wooded foothills
1 misty rain forest
1 arid mesa
2 volcanic island
1 tropical island
2 taiga
1 platuea
1 tundra
1 badlands
1 mountain
4 tribal flames
4 bolt
4 chian
4 rift bolt
3daze
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 wild nacatl
4 delver
4 goblin guild
2 grim lavamancer
1 kird ape
sb
4 FOW
4 spell peirce
3 sulfuric vortex/batterskull hate
4 grave hate
In exchange for a slightly worse mana base you get tribal flames and wild nacatl. Not sure if it is better or worse tbh.
counters come in against all combo decks and some other random decks (i.e. enchantress)

Hanni

02-16-2012, 11:28 PM

I'll add Tribal Flames to the list of options in the opening post.

ajfennewald

02-16-2012, 11:47 PM

Hanni Do you have any thoughts on whether I am better of with kird apes instead of grim lavamancer. With green I can certainly play 15 aggro 1 drops but I am not sure which is better.

Hanni

02-16-2012, 11:56 PM

I'm really not quite sure. Kird Ape would definitely be alot more aggressive, and offer you more early game damage with the aggro rush. On the flip side, Grim Lavamancer gives you extended midgame reach. If you go the Kird Ape route, I would suggest some number of Fire/Ice, since your entire creature base sans the Delver's are all groundbound attackers. If you can't or don't want to fit Fire/Ice, I'd say go with Grim Lavamancer since it's a safer bet.

gkraigher

02-17-2012, 12:06 AM

This is my modern decklist:

4 snapcaster mage
4 plated giopede
4 steppe lynx
3 geist of st. traft
4 delver of secrets
2 vendillion clique
4 lightning bolt
4 path to exile
4 lightning helix
3 spell snare

4 flagstones of trokair
2 vesuva
4 arid mesa
4 scalding tarn
1 mountain
1 island
1 plains
3 hallowed fountain
2 boros garrison
2 steam vents

Grollub

02-17-2012, 07:04 AM

I know you've written off Wasteland in your opening post, but have you actually tried it? I played Sligh both in Extended, Vintage and Standard, alot, and I've never ever wanted to leave home without 4 Wastelands (granted this was different metagames, some more busted and some weaker) - keeping the game in "early game" as long as possible is simply so good.
- It'll put a little stress on your manabase, I know, but it just might be worth it.

Cursed Scroll is another card worth keeping in mind. Somewhat serves the same purpose as Grim Lavamancer, but harder to kill.

I love that you're not slowing the deck down with counterspells, and the single one you uses can actually speed up the clock; either by improving the value of Steppe Lynx or by bouncing a land later in the game to Brainstorm it anyway into more burn. :-D

Mr. Safety

02-17-2012, 07:34 AM

Reading the OP with the white splash, I have to say it's really nice to see someone capitolizing on Steppe Lynx again. I've been using Lynx in my zoo build for a long time. I switched from Loam Lion to Lynx, added in more fetchlands (total of 10 in the deck) and never looked back. In zoo, it has Sylvan Library to filter those top three for the game winner, and fetchlands turn mid-late game Steppe Lynx's into a viable threat.

My only real question for Hanni on the white splash is whether or not you feel that StP/Path should be included somewhere in the 75. Looking at your Stoneblade game on MWS, it was great to see you outrace a Batterskull. I'm just curious how often you've run into the situation of having a massive threat you couldn't deal with, like a big Goyf, Knight of the Reliquary, a timely Batterskull, or even a sizeable Scavenging Ooze (4/4 or better.) Would Swords/Path be worth putting in the sideboard considering the white splash?

On a slightly different train of thought, would Lightning Helix ever be considered for the benefits against opposing sligh/aggro decks (lifegain)?

Hanni

02-17-2012, 09:57 AM

I do not think Swords or Path belong in the 75, although justification could be made for running Path in the sideboard. There is no place for Swords in this deck.

The thing is, this deck really doesn't care about Goyf or Knight of the Reliquary. Early game, Lynx outsizes both of them, and the rest of the creatures do evasive damage. I mean, Guide is groundbound, but an unexpected Guide off the top can be cast once the opponent has no blockers open for 2 damage. Besides, this deck races those creatures anyway. I run Submerge in my board to deal with these guys since they are very prevalent in the metagame, and I think its better because it's free and doesn't have dissynergy with Daze. However, the Submerge's are a flex spot that could be Path to Exile... or even some graveyard hate.

Batterskull can be an issue, because of the lifegain. However, SFM is very easy for this deck to deal with, and this deck can race an opponent to a hardcast Batterskull. I have Spree and Disenchant postboard, which also take care of Jitte.

Hanni

02-17-2012, 01:39 PM

Sorry that I didn't address all of the questions in my last post. I'm at work and typing responses on my phone can be a bitch.

I know you've written off Wasteland in your opening post, but have you actually tried it? I played Sligh both in Extended, Vintage and Standard, alot, and I've never ever wanted to leave home without 4 Wastelands (granted this was different metagames, some more busted and some weaker) - keeping the game in "early game" as long as possible is simply so good.
- It'll put a little stress on your manabase, I know, but it just might be worth it.

My list runs 4 spells that I can cast with Wasteland mana. 4, that's it. That means Wasteland would have to replace spells, not lands. At that point, why even run it over Price of Progress?

I understand that Wasteland slows the opponent down, which is a good thing, but Daze does the same thing. Personally, I think Daze has a lot more value in this deck. If I were to fit in Wasteland, I'd cut the Dazes to do so.

However, I will remove Wasteland from the list of non-playables.

To address your other point, no, I have not tried Wasteland in this build. I have played with Wasteland in Sligh decks in older formats though. A good example was back in the old Mirrodin Tinker era. Back then though, the format was filled with Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, and Seat of Synod. That was also in a deck running plenty of spells where Wasteland could be used to produce mana for, like Blistering Firecat and Cursed Scroll. I also ran Rishadan Ports too.

The thing is, I remember when I used to play a Sligh deck with Jackal Pup and Mogg Flunkies, but that doesn't mean I should consider them for this deck. The card pool has evolved what Sligh was and what Sligh is. Gone are the days of using 2cc creatures. Gone are the days of using less efficient burn spells like Incinerate. Those changes make Wasteland much less attractive, and make Daze much more attractive.

Cursed Scroll is another card worth keeping in mind. Somewhat serves the same purpose as Grim Lavamancer, but harder to kill.

Cursed Scroll is slow and inefficient, but it is still a valuable card, so I will add it to the list of playables.

On a slightly different train of thought, would Lightning Helix ever be considered for the benefits against opposing sligh/aggro decks (lifegain)?

This deck is one of, if not the most, aggressive decks in the format... so the deck should not need it. It would be a house in the mirror match though, so I'll add it to the list of playables.

Although... both Forked Bolt and Searing Blaze would also be really good in the mirror match, too.

The biggest difference I see is that Helix is great against the Burn matchup. The Burn matchup is unfavorable. I mean, both decks are extremely similar, except they have several slight advantages. For starters, this deck runs 12 fetchlands that cause life loss, where they (usually) run none. Our creatures trade 1 for 1 with their burn spells, so that's not so bad, but their creatures don't trade 1 for 1 with our burn spells (Keldon Marauders and Hellspark Elemental). They might also run spells like Cave-In, Volcanic Fallout, and/or Flamebreak, which also give them a big edge. We have an advantage with Brainstorm enabling greater consistency, but it doesn't make up for the disadvantages everywhere else.

Hopefully Burn doesn't stay popular for long, or I probably will be adding things like Lightning Helix to compensate... or Circle of Protection: Red in the sideboard.

ajfennewald

02-17-2012, 06:26 PM

My only real question for Hanni on the white splash is whether or not you feel that StP/Path should be included somewhere in the 75.
I just thought I would note that if you play tribal flames it can often kill kotr and goyf making dedicated removal less needed.

dahcmai

02-18-2012, 04:46 AM

Was I the only one who kept expecting the end of that MWS log to end with "fukin scrub" or "noob"? lol I mean don't they all end like that? Heh.

rxavage

02-18-2012, 10:09 AM

What do you think of this build? Any suggestions? what are your thoughts on porting this to modern?

CREATURES 13
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Dark Confidant
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendilion Clique

INSTANTS 22
4 Brainstorm
3 Force
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Smother
1 Go for the Throat SORCERIES 6
3 Thought seize
3 Chain lightning

LANDS 19
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Islands
1 Mountains
1 Swamps

SIDEBOARD
1 Force of Will
2 Damnation
3 Surgical extraction
3 Reanimate
2 Mana Leak
2 REB
2 Tombstalker

ajfennewald

02-18-2012, 10:32 AM

rxsavage your deck looks more like a variant of tempo RUG than sligh

rxavage

02-18-2012, 10:39 AM

rxsavage your deck looks more like a variant of tempo RUG than sligh

That is true, but i arrived at this point after starting with a straight u/r burn heavy deck, then to counter heavy, then black splash for stalker etc. How could it be more sligh?

ajfennewald

02-18-2012, 11:29 AM

Hanni I noticed you play no grave hate in the board. Do you think you already have good matchusp vs reanimator and dredge or are you hoping to dodge them?

Kich867

02-18-2012, 11:38 AM

Decks like this rely quite a bit on speed. Cursed Scroll is pretty damn slow, I wouldn't list it on the playable cards list because someone asked you to. Lavamancer does the job a -lot- better.

ajfennewald

02-18-2012, 02:03 PM

This may be pushing the mana too far but here is my attempt at playing wild nacatl, tribal flames and steppe lynx
4 scalding tarn
4 wooded foothills
1 misty rain forest
2 arid mesa
2 volcanic island
1 tropical island
2 taiga
1 platuea
1 tundra
1 mountain
4 tribal flames
4 bolt
4 chain
2 rift bolt
2 fireblast
4 daze
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 wild nacatl
4 delver
4 goblin guild
3 steppe lynx
sb
4 FOW
4 spell peirce
3 sulfuric vortex/batterskull hate
4 grave hate

No longer has the option of a fully powered tribal flames but tbh I cast it for 4 like 80% of the time any way (which is still pretty good imo). I am sticking with ponder over magma jet atm due to my counter sideboard. I could definably see cutting the rift bolts and ponders for 4 magma jets. Any way I think Hanni's list is probably better than either of mine but I love wild nacatl so much there is a good chance I stick with mine for the GP.

Hanni

02-18-2012, 03:43 PM

That is true, but i arrived at this point after starting with a straight u/r burn heavy deck, then to counter heavy, then black splash for stalker etc. How could it be more sligh?

Take a look at my list if you want the answer to that question. I mean, Legacy Sligh for me has evolved over the years, but the shell is still almost exactly the same. I'm talking strictly about Sligh for Legacy, not for old Extended, Standard, etc

Started out as R/g Goyf Sligh, became R/g/w Naya Sligh, and now R/u/w Blue Sligh. The deck should consist of the following basic shell:

12-16 creatures (at least 12 of them 1cc)
16+ burn spells
18-20 lands

My older Sligh lists had upwards of 26 burn spells. Now with blue and cantrips, that number is able to drop down a bit. My list is currently running 19 burn spells if you don't count Goblin Guide or Grim Lavamancer as burn spells (although they often function as a burn spell).

Also, I've trended away from using 2cc creatures completely, because they come down on turn 2 at the earliest, and cannot even swing until turn 3, which is way too slow for Sligh. Unless some really good hasty 2cc creature gets printed in the future (and I mean he has to be really good), there is really no reason to run 2cc creatures anymore. There are plenty of fantastic 1cc creatures available to Sligh nowadays that there's really no good reason to run any 2cc ones.

You have to remember the deck is all about efficiency, damage to cost ratio, and maximizing damage output for dealing 20 damage as fast as possible. Snapcaster Mage, Dark Confidant, and Vendilion Clique don't do that.

---

Snapcaster Mage is basically a 3 mana Lightning Bolt that leaves a 2/1 body. A vanilla 2/1 body is mostly irreleveant coming down on turn 3, even if you Flash it in on the end of the opponent's turn and it is capable of doing 2 damage next turn, it's still bad in this deck. At 3 mana, I'd rather play Browbeat, Sulfuric Vortex, or even Ball Lightning. Don't get me wrong though, I wouldn't run any of those either.

Confidant is junk. You waste your entire turn 2 casting a 2/1 creature, who may or may not draw you a few extra cards to compensate for the incredible tempo that you've lost. And if it eats a Bolt or Swords? Ouch.

Clique costs 3 mana and isn't even guaranteed to deal any damage. 1UU at that. Even if it is capable of swinging once and doing 3 damage, I'd rather just play Lava Spike and do 3 damage for 1 mana. By the time Clique comes down, the opponent should be close to dead already anyway.

You also run a total of 7 burn spells.

Now, I'm not saying that you're deck isn't good. It could be fantastic (I haven't played with it to know). What I am saying is, the deck is clearly not Sligh. Please read the opening post, where I specifically said that pretty much all of the cards you're running, besides a few, do not belong in this deck. That deck belongs in the U/R Delver (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22676-Deck-U-R-Delver) thread.

---

Any way I think Hanni's list is probably better than either of mine but I love wild nacatl so much there is a good chance I stick with mine for the GP.

You should at least playtest with my list for a little bit, and compare the results with your own. You might find that your list suits you better in playtesting, but you may also find the opposite to be true.

Hanni I noticed you play no grave hate in the board. Do you think you already have good matchusp vs reanimator and dredge or are you hoping to dodge them?

Against Dredge, I race them. I have the ability to blow up Bridge from Below at nearly any point in the game if I need to. I can goldfish turn 3, which is around the average goldfish for Dredge, so that's what I've been doing. The deck could certainly fit some graveyard hate in to the tilt the matchup even further though.

Against Reanimator, I already have Spell Pierce. Although, Grafdigger's Cage would be a hell of alot better than Spell Pierce in this matchup, but still. They have a few targets that they can reanimate that can be a pain in the ass for us, but this deck can often race Reanimator.

Honestly, I'm questioning the Submerge's in my sideboard, so those may end up becoming Grafdigger's Cage. I haven't really needed Submerge yet in testing, even against decks with Forests and aggro.

Decks like this rely quite a bit on speed. Cursed Scroll is pretty damn slow, I wouldn't list it on the playable cards list because someone asked you to. Lavamancer does the job a -lot- better.

There is still value in Cursed Scroll, though. Maybe as a 1-of, maybe in the sideboard, but it is alot harder to deal with than creatures. I'm thinking against some sort of black deck with a bunch of discard and creature kill... although The Rack is probably a better option. At any rate, I do not plan on using Cursed Scroll, but I will leave it on the list of playable options.

ajfennewald

02-18-2012, 11:02 PM

---

Honestly, I'm questioning the Submerge's in my sideboard, so those may end up becoming Grafdigger's Cage. I haven't really needed Submerge yet in testing, even against decks with Forests and aggro.

I think despite its dis-synergy with daze and and not being free path is a better option than submerge. I mainly think this because it doubles as reanimator hate. But I think I agree that it is not needed. creating a ground stall is not really bad for you since that gives you a chance to draw into burn.
Also maybe I am missing something but in all my testing of blue zoo i have never been excited by Red Elemental blast as a sideboard option in this type of deck.

Hanni

02-18-2012, 11:43 PM

I think despite its dis-synergy with daze and and not being free path is a better option than submerge. I mainly think this because it doubles as reanimator hate. But I think I agree that it is not needed. creating a ground stall is not really bad for you since that gives you a chance to draw into burn.
Also maybe I am missing something but in all my testing of blue zoo i have never been excited by Red Elemental blast as a sideboard option in this type of deck.

You know, you are probably right. I can't really think of too many situations against opposing blue decks where I would rather have Red Elemental Blast as opposed to just having more Burn. The only situation I can think of is against Counterbalance.

After I playtest more, I may end up cutting Submerge and Red Elemental Blast for graveyard hate. I'm not sure whether Surgical Extraction or Grafdigger's Cage would be better though. Grafdigger's is more thorough, but Surgical being free is alot more relevant I think.

ajfennewald

02-19-2012, 12:38 AM

tormod's crypt is also free.

Hanni

02-19-2012, 01:42 AM

Actually, Tormod's Crypt does seem to be the best option. I mean, the only two matchups where I'd ever want graveyard hate for would be Reanimator and Dredge. Any other graveyard dependant decks, like Loam decks and such, I really just don't care about their graveyard.

Against both of these matchups, Tormod's Crypt would work better. Cage seems more powerful, but being free is alot more relevant for this deck. Crypt hitting the entire yard also seems alot better against both decks than Surgical Extraction, since Reanimator could Careful Study two different targets in the yard, and wiping Dredge's entire yard once is pretty much gg for this deck.

Now I suppose the question is, how many should I run? I definitely think 4 is too many. I mean, I've been doing pretty well against both of these matchups with no graveyard hate. 2 seems too few to be reliable, but I don't know. I guess I'll try 3 out.

Again, both Submerge and Red Elemental Blast seem unecessary. If I cut those 4 slots for 3 graveyard hate, I free up one slot.

I also haven't been finding myself bringing in Price of Progress much lately. Most of the matchups I've been playing against, people have been fetching basics heavily. I'm guessing they think I'm running Price even when I'm not, since most U/R Delver lists run them. Either way, the deck doesn't even really need Price of Progress against most decks anyway. I think I'm going to cut these down to 2 to free up another slot.

With the extra room, I'm going to put in 2 Force of Will. That should be more than enough to give me favorable combo matchups, considering this deck can goldfish turn 3.

My new sideboard:

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [TE] Disenchant
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

EDIT: While I do like the fact that I can now transform into somewhat of an aggro/control deck postboard with Pierce and Force, I'm not sure if Force is the card I want. The worst matchup I've ran into so far with this deck has been the Smallpox decks I've played against. Total resource denial is a straight up pain in the ass for this deck. Discard, creature kill, and land destruction combined gas this deck out bad. Force seems lackluster here, since it Hymn's myself. Maybe Divert or Spell Snare would be better? Anyway, I'm still going to keep the Forces in there for now, but I'm considering that my flex spot, which is likely going to change after more playtesting.

EDIT 2: I also wanted to say, that this deck is so rediculously good. I've always enjoyed playing Sligh. It's been one of my favorite decks ever since I started advocating for Naya Sligh while people in the Goyf Sligh thread were arguing with me that splashing white was wrong and I should go play Zoo. With Delver and Brainstorm, R/u/w is just so much stronger than Naya Sligh was. I truly believe this deck should be DTB. It's just ruthlessly consistent at killing the opponent and ends games so fast, that you would have enough time to take a shit in between rounds if you ate some bad food the night before, and still Top 8 on a messed up stomach. My list feels so streamlined it isn't funny, and the maindeck feels absolutely perfect. There's not a single thing I'd change in the maindeck.

Mr. Safety

02-19-2012, 10:56 AM

I'm not sure if you even considered it, but I think Ravenous Trap is a solid grave hate option. It rarely gets activated by Reanimator, but dredge is a cinch to get it online for free. It another useful purpose against anything using Past In Flames right now, too (some TES decks, an occasional ANT deck.) Storm hits 3 cards pretty easy on their combo turn, and if they even think about using PiF Ravenous Trap basically reads 'GG'. I use it alongside a singleton Surgical Extraction and Nihil Spellbomb (so I use 3 grave hates in my sideboard.) I am using Tombstalker and a healthy amount of black in a U/b Delver/Faeries build, so that's why I turned to Nihil Spellbomb instead of TCrypt. I still have my graveyard to feed the 3 Stalkers and it cantrips for me.

ajfennewald

02-19-2012, 01:41 PM

With the extra room, I'm going to put in 2 Force of Will. That should be more than enough to give me favorable combo matchups, considering this deck can goldfish turn 3.

My new sideboard:

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 2 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [TE] Disenchant
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

EDIT: While I do like the fact that I can now transform into somewhat of an aggro/control deck postboard with Pierce and Force, I'm not sure if Force is the card I want. The worst matchup I've ran into so far with this deck has been the Smallpox decks I've played against. Total resource denial is a straight up pain in the ass for this deck. Discard, creature kill, and land destruction combined gas this deck out bad. Force seems lackluster here, since it Hymn's myself. Maybe Divert or Spell Snare would be better? Anyway, I'm still going to keep the Forces in there for now, but I'm considering that my flex spot, which is likely going to change after more playtesting.

I side my counters in vs only combo decks and a few others (i.e enchantress and chalice decks probebly). I would also side it in if I saw some serious burn hate from their side game 2. All the counters means post board you are a deck with a with a turn 4 goldfish and 10-12 counters (since the counters come in for burn slows you down a little). That is a alot for most combo decks to handle. The pox match up is terrible and I really doubt that you can really do much to change it with 2-3 cards so I would not bother.

EDIT This is unrelated to my original post. I will be testing Hanni's list and mine in preparation for the GP And I though I would list out in theory the pros and cons of each
Mine
Pros
- I get the play 15 extremely aggressive 1 drops vs 12
- Tribal flames is pretty powerful when it works
- Sb artifact and enchantment hate is better
Cons
- I am significantly more venerable to wasteland not so much in casting my spells but in that wild nacatl and tribal flmaes depend on land staying in play
- I have to play 19 lands.
- I usually have to fetch a land that is not a mountain in my opening two lands often making ending the game in a flurry of burn harder.

joey223

02-19-2012, 03:15 PM

I truly believe this deck should be DTB. It's just ruthlessly consistent at killing the opponent and ends games so fast, that you would have enough time to take a shit in between rounds if you ate some bad food the night before, and still Top 8 on a messed up stomach.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

roflmao!!!!!

thanks for that hanni!

it looks like blast to play and i will try it out.

Hanni

02-19-2012, 03:23 PM

Pros
- I get the play 15 extremely aggressive 1 drops vs 12
- Tribal flames is pretty powerful when it works
- Sb artifact and enchantment hate is better
Cons
- I am significantly more venerable to wasteland not so much in casting my spells but in that wild nacatl and tribal flmaes depend on land staying in play
- I have to play 19 lands.
- I usually have to fetch a land that is not a mountain in my opening two lands often making ending the game in a flurry of burn harder.

I'm running 15 1 drops too...

I'm running a 2/2 split of Spree and Disenchant, so I'm not sure what you meant there either.

roflmao!!!!!

thanks for that hanni!

Thanks, I'll be here all week.

ajfennewald

02-19-2012, 03:40 PM

I'm running 15 1 drops too...

I'm running a 2/2 split of Spree and Disenchant, so I'm not sure what you meant there either.

Thanks, I'll be here all week.

I was referring to the 2nd list with steppe lynx. I was saying they are all aggressive. Grim lavamance is good but not aggressive out of the gate. Tbh it is not clear where that is an advantage or not.

I would consider ancient grudge and krosan grip to be better for what you need them for. I may be miscalculating this though as krosan grip may be too expensive to use. And I don't have either of those cards in my sb in the list above but I would prob change sulfuric vortex to some combo of the two.

Hanni

02-19-2012, 03:43 PM

was referring to the 2nd list with steppe lynx. I was saying they are all aggressive. Grim lavamance is good but not aggressive out of the gate. Tbh it is not clear where that is an advantage or not.

I would consider ancient grudge and krosan grip to be better for what you need them for. I may be miscalculating this though as krosan grip may be too expensive to use. And I don't have either of those cards in my sb in the list above but I would prob change sulfuric vortex to some combo of the two.

Ah okay, I see what you mean now.

ajfennewald

02-19-2012, 04:05 PM

On another note it looks like RUG is moving away from stifle and towards spell pierce. That is prob better for my build not sure about the 3 color one. Also I am not sure if there countertop package that they have been playing is good or bad for us. On the one hand once it gets going we can't resolve much, on the other they may end up durdling around for too long to set it up while there face is being smashed in.

Hanni

02-19-2012, 04:09 PM

RUG Tempo is an easy matchup.

Counterbalance is not good for us, but our early creature rush can sometimes be too much for them to handle if they are spending their early mana casting Top and Balance and not answering our creatures. Rift Bolt and Fireblast can dodge Counterbalance, and Goblin Guide gives us the heads up as to what their top card is (in corner cases). If Counterbalance starts making a ressurgence, the sideboard will need adjusted accordingly.

troopatroop

02-19-2012, 10:43 PM

joey223

02-19-2012, 10:53 PM

i know this may be a crazy question but is the white splash needed just for the lynx?
you could drop lynx for plated geopede since its on color and has landfall and that would make a straight 2 color deck and also strengthen the mana base.

thats an untested suggestion by the way.

ajfennewald

02-19-2012, 11:38 PM

magma jet makes delver more reliable. It is basically an alternate to ponder.
@ joey the white splash is needed because there are not enough good one drops in B/U. You would need to play something like phantasmal bear to make it work. Geopede is too slow for what the deck is trying to do.

Hanni

02-20-2012, 02:12 AM

If I were to take your list Hanni, I would straight cut the 4x Magma Jet. It never does anything sensational in my opinion. I've found Searing Blaze to be much more akin to what we're looking for against Stoneforge Mystic, which is to kill it AND do something for 2 mana. 6 damage is alot more than 2, and can make a big difference in such a creature infested metagame. I added another land to you list, a Plateau at first glace. I wanted 19 lands with Lynx and landfall on 7 cards, and there's only 1 non-red land. If you were looking to beat Maverick, I'd say this deck is very well positioned.

It's tempting to cut Brainstorm for Lava Spike or something, but it's really not that good. Brainstorm and Daze really compliment the Lynx well, and he's truly the 1 mana Tarmogoyf of Legacy right now. Since everyone and their brother is playing SFM + Creatures and Stuff.dec atm, I think Searing Blaze could really be the right choice. I guess Magma Jet is better against Combo? I guess it's arguably better against Control? I'm mostly looking for feedback on that. Great decklists and concept, well done.

Searing Blaze is a really good card against opposing aggro decks, and I'm actually considering fitting 2 in my sideboard in place of what is right now Force of Will.

I think you underestimate Magma Jet, or misassigned its role. Magma Jet is fantastic. It's not there just to hit SFM's. The fact that there are so many creatures right now that it deals with is really good though. The primary reason I run Magma Jet is that it is a burn spell attached to a Scry 2. It helps me maintain my burn density (and again, 2 targetable damage is very relevant right now) while giving me additional library manipulation. Magma Jet is not only good for growing Delver, it's also good for fueling Steppe Lynx, and it's also good for setting up the win so that I draw more burn. The tempo lost from paying 2 mana to do only 2 damage is offset by potentially saving me 2 draw steps worth of worthless cards.

If I were to cut Magma Jet (which I wouldn't), I'd replace them with at least a couple Ponder. Magma Jet has been one of my favorite cards to see, and has been fantastic for me in nearly every single game, against all sorts of different matchups. I personally won't be cutting them, but to each their own.

Brainstorm is so rediculously good in this deck, do not cut those. For any reason.

Also, I think going up to 19 lands is a bad idea. The extra land for Steppe Lynx is not needed with Brainstorm and Magma Jet/Ponder, and the extra land is going to hurt you more than it helps. This deck needs to draw gas, and mana floods will cause game losses moreso than manascrew. Even with 18 lands, I've still had games where I flood. The entire deck is filled with nothing but 1cc spells, with Magma Jet and Fireblast being the only two spells that require more than 1 land in play. In fact, I'd argue that the builds with Ponder instead of Magma Jet could actually get away with running 17 lands.

i know this may be a crazy question but is the white splash needed just for the lynx?
you could drop lynx for plated geopede since its on color and has landfall and that would make a straight 2 color deck and also strengthen the mana base.

The splash doesn't do much whatsoever to reduce mana consistency, even against Wastelands. The deck needs white only for Lynx, so if the deck doesn't have a turn 1 or two Lynx, it never needs white mana (preboard).

Aside from that, for those wanting to stay straight R/u for whatever reason, whether that be budget concerns or a metagame that is filled with nonbasic hate, Plated Geopede is not a replacement. The earliest Geopede can attack is turn 3, and this deck does not support cracking fetchlands consistently past turn 3. As was mentioned, Phantasmal Bear would be the Lynx replacement for the straight R/u builds.

Either way, I've been extremely satisfied with Lynx in the 100 or so games I've logged with this deck on MWS in the past week or so. He rips peoples faces off.

Raystar

02-20-2012, 09:01 AM

EDIT: While I do like the fact that I can now transform into somewhat of an aggro/control deck postboard with Pierce and Force, I'm not sure if Force is the card I want. The worst matchup I've ran into so far with this deck has been the Smallpox decks I've played against. Total resource denial is a straight up pain in the ass for this deck. Discard, creature kill, and land destruction combined gas this deck out bad. Force seems lackluster here, since it Hymn's myself. Maybe Divert or Spell Snare would be better? Anyway, I'm still going to keep the Forces in there for now, but I'm considering that my flex spot, which is likely going to change after more playtesting.

Hello Hanni, great deck idea as always. Regarding the above question/doubt: wouldn't flusterstorm be the card you are looking for to stop discard/pox effects during the early turns?

Hanni

02-20-2012, 10:12 PM

Flusterstorm doesn't like a bad idea actually. I have to hold U open, and it's not as good as Force of Will against combo decks like Reanimator and Show and Tell, but it's basically 2 more Spell Pierce's that are actually better than Spell Pierce against instants and sorceries specifically. I'll cut the Forces for those and see how they turn out. Thanks for the suggestion.

Koby

02-20-2012, 10:17 PM

Here's a version from earlier this year that did very well.

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5983&iddeck=43368

//NAME: Ruw Burn
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Searing Blaze
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens

ajfennewald

02-20-2012, 10:53 PM

I think you should call your deck The Real Team America

Koby

02-20-2012, 10:58 PM

I think you should call your deck The Real Team America

I'm thinking Patriot Sligh, but SCG will just call it Burn knowing their conventions.

Hanni

02-20-2012, 11:02 PM

ajfennewald

02-20-2012, 11:13 PM

Blue sligh is a good thread title. I was just suggesting silly names to go with legacies weird deck naming.
I will almost certainly be playing some variant of your deck or my deck at the GP. I have played your deck some and I do like it.

Hanni

02-20-2012, 11:17 PM

Roses are red, violets are blue, is the white splash the best this deck can do? R/u/w Pown-enator... err, Poem-enator.

Or what about SWA? Sligh with Attitude.

ajfennewald

02-20-2012, 11:21 PM

Hanni Do you consider sulfuric vortex I sideboard option?

ajfennewald

02-20-2012, 11:23 PM

Hanni Do you consider sulfuric vortex I sideboard option? It is good against batter skull, counter balance nic fit (casue of finks). down sides are cost 3 and makes delver worse. Sorry for double psot computer is behaving strangly.

Hanni

02-20-2012, 11:28 PM

Oooo wait, I got another good one. The Boros in Blue. Haha.

Hanni Do you consider sulfuric vortex I sideboard option? It is good against batter skull, counter balance nic fit (casue of finks). down sides are cost 3 and makes delver worse

A 3cc enchantment... I don't know. If Counterbalance comes back en masse I can see the value, but I already beat Batterskull just fine with my current configuration, and I've beaten decks with Finks as well. Finks only gains them 2 life without a sac outlet, and doesn't typically come down in time for me to care about it blocking. Delver and Lavamancer just simply go around it, and even the 4 lifegain isn't that hard to recover from.

For the moment, I wouldn't run them personally, but they are a valid sideboard option.

joey223

02-21-2012, 04:00 PM

ahh ok thanks guys got it!

also do the counterspells in the deck have to be 1 cc?

i ask because i really like negate at 2 cc.
and of course there is spell snare at 1 cc.

i would say every card in the deck is precious and pitching cards to force seems not so good.

Hanni

02-21-2012, 06:40 PM

I wouldn't run any countermagic in the maindeck besides Daze, which could just as easily be more burn. However, I'm sure there are those playing a very similar list to mine that run Spell Pierce instead of Daze. I suppose it works, but this isn't really a deck that wants to hold U open for countermagic, unless the matchup requires it (combo, Smallpox, etc).

2cc counterspells most definitely do not have a place in this deck, though.

Basara

02-21-2012, 09:50 PM

i rather run path to exile/lighting helix than magma jet , the jet is a weak card.

Hanni

02-21-2012, 09:56 PM

i rather run path to exile/lighting helix than magma jet , the jet is a weak card.

Until you playtest it and realize how valuable Scry 2 is in this deck. The lifegain in Helix is irrelevant in all but the mirror, and the 1 extra point of damage isn't as good as the Scry 2.

As far as Path goes, aside from the possible +2/+2 to Lynx, the deck does not need removal that can't be pointed at the opponent's face.

I wish people would actually try Magma Jet in here before assuming it is a weak card. The 4 Brainstorm 4 Magma Jet card quality engine goes a long, long way. Not only do they improve Delver flips, they also improve Steppe Lynx, and in general they increase the decks consistency by a great deal. The ability to filter out the chaff is invaluable.

Kich867

02-22-2012, 05:22 PM

Until you playtest it and realize how valuable Scry 2 is in this deck. The lifegain in Helix is irrelevant in all but the mirror, and the 1 extra point of damage isn't as good as the Scry 2.

As far as Path goes, aside from the possible +2/+2 to Lynx, the deck does not need removal that can't be pointed at the opponent's face.

I wish people would actually try Magma Jet in here before assuming it is a weak card. The 4 Brainstorm 4 Magma Jet card quality engine goes a long, long way. Not only do they improve Delver flips, they also improve Steppe Lynx, and in general they increase the decks consistency by a great deal. The ability to filter out the chaff is invaluable.

A good point about Magma Jet is it's guaranteed to do damage and either put shit out of sight out of mind on the bottom of your deck or get you what you need for next turn. You can do it EOT, as it's an instant and ponder isn't..

I'm -thinking- about dropping some money and trying this out? I currently run U/R delver, which has been performing well for me, but steppe lynx would be a sweet addition.

Part of me is also, still, dying to make a RUW Tempo deck. Steppe Lynx / Guide / Delver are probably the key to that. I have a playset of stifles laying around, I don't know how much I can contribute to this deck but I'm taking a lot of inspiration from it.

Hanni

02-22-2012, 05:30 PM

A good point about Magma Jet is it's guaranteed to do damage and either put shit out of sight out of mind on the bottom of your deck or get you what you need for next turn. You can do it EOT, as it's an instant and ponder isn't..

I don't mind a good Ponder vs Magma Jet debate. However, people are suggesting cutting the Jets for other burn spells instead of Ponder, and I think that's wrong.

I'm -thinking- about dropping some money and trying this out? I currently run U/R delver, which has been performing well for me, but steppe lynx would be a sweet addition.

Playtest the deck on MWS before you shell out some coin. I promise you won't be disappointed though.

Part of me is also, still, dying to make a RUW Tempo deck. Steppe Lynx / Guide / Delver are probably the key to that. I have a playset of stifles laying around, I don't know how much I can contribute to this deck but I'm taking a lot of inspiration from it.

I'm glad I could help. That's what the forums are for ;)

griD

02-22-2012, 08:12 PM

This deck is mad good if you know how to play Sligh. It races basically everything.
I'll admit that i cut two of the Magma Jets for two Fire//Ice, because I love both cards :3 - and with that I don't need any Submerge in SB.

Props to the OP!

Darksteel

02-22-2012, 08:44 PM

This deck looks sweet and I'm definitely going to try it at my local Legacy tournament this Saturday. The only cards I'm missing are two Volcanic Islands but hopefully I'll be able to borrow them. If not, I'll just use Steam Vents, which while not ideal, are fine by me for a small, local tournament.

Anyway, this is my first time playing a sligh-style deck, so I was just curious about how the deck is meant to be played. From first glance, it looks like "lay down creature and swing", using burn to remove blockers/go for the opponent if there are no blockers? Or is that oversimplifying it? Any nuances of playing the deck?

Thanks

Hanni

02-23-2012, 02:14 AM

Anyway, this is my first time playing a sligh-style deck, so I was just curious about how the deck is meant to be played. From first glance, it looks like "lay down creature and swing", using burn to remove blockers/go for the opponent if there are no blockers? Or is that oversimplifying it? Any nuances of playing the deck?

Nah, that's pretty much it. I mean, there are some nuances, but those are best learned by playing the deck. The deck is fairly simple to pilot for the most part.

Basara

02-24-2012, 12:26 AM

Until you playtest it and realize how valuable Scry 2 is in this deck. The lifegain in Helix is irrelevant in all but the mirror, and the 1 extra point of damage isn't as good as the Scry 2.

As far as Path goes, aside from the possible +2/+2 to Lynx, the deck does not need removal that can't be pointed at the opponent's face.

I wish people would actually try Magma Jet in here before assuming it is a weak card. The 4 Brainstorm 4 Magma Jet card quality engine goes a long, long way. Not only do they improve Delver flips, they also improve Steppe Lynx, and in general they increase the decks consistency by a great deal. The ability to filter out the chaff is invaluable.
Yes the path , cant go to the opponents head , but at least is a real answer vs goyf and KOR , two of the most played creatures, i think the deck has problems vs resolved goyfs/kor , (maybe not?) , the helix is absolutely devasting against burn/zoo/ur burn/mirror , i just dont like magma jet , is an overcosted shock , but i dont know after all you are the creator of the deck and you have tested with it a lot.

On the other hand , what about mental note? , it helps the lavamancer plan , and replace itself

jnosrati

02-24-2012, 04:31 AM

So here's what ive learned through 6 months of testing blue zoo for an hour or 3 a day.

1) Maverick is a hard mu, your only win con is to burn them out. Play POP. I found that even in blue zoo, i had to play it MD, and hit myself usually for 6 to win. It really blows them out, but its hard to support in 4 colors.

2) forked bolt is a superior fire/ice. play it, dont play fire ice.

3) I don't think wl/stifle fits in our deck

4) I know your primer says dont play spell snare, and i agree with the rest of your "don't plays" but this one card hits sfm, tendrils deck tutors, goyfs (if youre not playing path, you'll need to snare these. Have you tested just the inclusion of snare and daze?

5) md path can sort of be argued for, dont throw it away, but it is important to consider. It can be good. I am beginning to see that the deck needs more burn to beat maverick though, so we probably don't have room.

6) we beat rug decks, sometimes mongoose is annoing and can sneak them a few games. a single ee isnt a bad sb card agaianst them. it can also be played on three for knights, and on 0 for dumb things.

7) we have a huge edge on grave decks, but i have md 2x ooze, which i miss dearly in this deck. Probably still an edge. (snare kills reanimator)

8) burn burn burn! I like it. Obviously the meta needs to change with the next set, because the top ranks are all the same 3 decks (and burn, haha) but until then we need to pop fireblast opponents to death

9) the big differences between this deck and my blue zoo is 2x teeg 2x ooze. loosing snare and teeg makes us very vulnerable to batterskulls and opposing oozes ruining our days.

10) sulfuric vortex does stop them from gaining life, but i wish it cost 2. Its very debatable.

Hanni

02-24-2012, 05:00 AM

Yes the path , cant go to the opponents head , but at least is a real answer vs goyf and KOR , two of the most played creatures, i think the deck has problems vs resolved goyfs/kor , (maybe not?) , the helix is absolutely devasting against burn/zoo/ur burn/mirror , i just dont like magma jet , is an overcosted shock , but i dont know after all you are the creator of the deck and you have tested with it a lot.

On the other hand , what about mental note? , it helps the lavamancer plan , and replace itself

The deck doesn't need a real answer to those creatures. Steppe Lynx is going to be larger than either of those creatures when it swings on turns 2 and 3, Delver flies over both of them, and Grim Lavamancer doesn't need to attack to do damage. The soonest Goyf and Knight are attacking is turn 3, and that's if the opponent has a mana dork that I don't hit with burn (in Knight's case). Goyf rarely attacks as a 4/5 on turn 3, and usually Knight swings as a 5/5 on turn 4. My deck has a turn 3-4 goldfish, and even against removal or countermagic, can still race Goyf and Knight.

I agree that Helix would be great in the mirrors like Burn and Zoo.

Mental Note is awful. This deck has more than enough fodder for Grim Lavamancer already with 12 fetchlands, 4 Brainstorm, and the large density of burn. Library manipulation is incredibly important for Delver flips, consistency with Lynx, and overall consistency (not mana flooding, not running out of gas, not drawing useless Lynx in the midgame, etc).

Hanni

02-24-2012, 05:37 AM

So here's what ive learned through 6 months of testing blue zoo for an hour or 3 a day.

Just as an aside before I respond to your list, I'd like to point out the beginning of my opening post. I've also playtested Blue Zoo pretty extensively. The lists that run Tarmogoyf and countermagic are different fundamentally from this deck.

1) Maverick is a hard mu, your only win con is to burn them out. Play POP. I found that even in blue zoo, i had to play it MD, and hit myself usually for 6 to win. It really blows them out, but its hard to support in 4 colors.

Maverick is not a hard matchup. It is a bad matchup for the older Blue Zoo lists I used to run, which relied on getting there with Kird Ape's, Wild Nacatl's, and Tarmogoyf's. It was hard for those lists not only because the entire creature base was groundbound, but also because the deck was diluted with around 12 countermagic spells and a rather low burn density. This deck isn't Blue Zoo, it's Blue Sligh.

I already said this in my response to the last guy, but my gameplan doesn't change 1 bit against Maverick. I drop a guy on turn 1, maybe 1-2 guys on turn 2, I burn blockers and swing until I can't do so anymore for whatever reason, and then I burn my opponent's face off. Opposing Goyf's and Knight's don't change that gameplan.

You'd be suprised how often I play only 1 creature early, and then I play like a straight up Burn deck after that.

I don't like Price of Progress in the maindeck, because I am a 3 color deck myself, and because it doesn't blow everyone out. It's funny atcually... U/R Delver is such a well known deck now, that my opponent's often fetch basics the entire time I play them, thinking I run PoP. It's funny knowing that they are grimping their manabase to try and play around a card I'm not even running in the maindeck.

I do run 2 PoP's in my sideboard, but I rarely bring them in.

2) forked bolt is a superior fire/ice. play it, dont play fire ice.

Well, I'm not playing Fire/Ice, because my build doesn't need it. If I was playing with Wild Nacatl's and Kird Ape's, I would. And in that case, Fire/Ice is better, because it allows me to tap down a big Goyf or Knight so that I can alpha strike.

3) I don't think wl/stifle fits in our deck

You're right, they don't. This is a Sligh deck, not a Tempo deck. My goal is to do 20 damage to the opponent ASAP, not waste time disrupting the opponent.

4) I know your primer says dont play spell snare, and i agree with the rest of your "don't plays" but this one card hits sfm, tendrils deck tutors, goyfs (if youre not playing path, you'll need to snare these. Have you tested just the inclusion of snare and daze?

This isn't an aggro/control deck. It's a Sligh deck. This deck has more in common with Burn than it does with Zoo, Blue Zoo, or Canadian Thresh. In fact, I'd argue that this deck is aggro/combo more than anything else.

Spell Snare hitting SFM is irrelevant when I run a billion burn spells. Goyf is irrelevant when I can race him. Against Storm combo, I agree that Snare would be good, but it's not a maindeck card. Not counting the fact that I do run Daze maindeck, I typically go 50/50 with Storm combo. I goldfish turn 3, I disable their Ad Nauseam plan, and I can race EtW. They pretty much need to IGG or PIF to go off successfully.

I'm running 4 Spell Pierce in the sideboard for the combo matchup. I also have two flex spots in my sideboard, which are 2 Flusterstorm right now.

5) md path can sort of be argued for, dont throw it away, but it is important to consider. It can be good. I am beginning to see that the deck needs more burn to beat maverick though, so we probably don't have room.

The deck already beats Maverick, because I am running more burn. Although if I were to run a hard removal spell (which I wouldn't), I'd run Dismember instead. Path has bad synergy with my Daze's.

6) we beat rug decks, sometimes mongoose is annoing and can sneak them a few games. a single ee isnt a bad sb card agaianst them. it can also be played on three for knights, and on 0 for dumb things.

I cannot really comment here, and I have not tested EE as a sideboard card. My initial thought is that it's a bit slow, but it does deal with Chalice of the Void if nothing else, so it's worth considering.

7) we have a huge edge on grave decks, but i have md 2x ooze, which i miss dearly in this deck. Probably still an edge. (snare kills reanimator)

This just further illustrates my point that Blue Sligh and Blue Zoo are two totally different decks. This deck doesn't run 2cc creatures because they cannot even swing until turn 3. In the case of Ooze specifically, he is very slow at being aggressive. Swinging for 2 on turn 3 is unimpressive, and in order to swing for more than that, requires additional mana investment.

I beat graveyard decks by racing them. I have Crypts postboard, and I also have Spell Pierces postboard for Reanimator.

8) burn burn burn! I like it. Obviously the meta needs to change with the next set, because the top ranks are all the same 3 decks (and burn, haha) but until then we need to pop fireblast opponents to death

That's the name of the game. This is the main reason I've always preferred Sligh over Zoo.

9) the big differences between this deck and my blue zoo is 2x teeg 2x ooze. loosing snare and teeg makes us very vulnerable to batterskulls and opposing oozes ruining our days.

The biggest difference is the fundamental gameplan. I'm not running any 2cc creatures, and the only countermagic I run is Daze, which could easily be 4 more burn spells. Opposing Batterskulls and Ooze's are only a problem when I don't burn them out, which luckily, happens to be very rarely.

10) sulfuric vortex does stop them from gaining life, but i wish it cost 2. Its very debatable.

Burning their SFM, Ooze, or creature with Jitte equipped stops them from gaining life, too. Or, simply doing 20 damage to them before they can get one of those into play has the same effect. The deck has better answers to those cards than a 3cc enchantment like Sulfuric Vortex. Vortex is a valid sideboard card, but its best application is against Counterbalance decks.

Malakai

02-24-2012, 07:50 AM

Steppe Lynx
It's the best burn creature of all time. The next best card is seriously Phantasmal Bear. How could you ever hold a straight face when someone asks you if you run Lynx, and you reply, "No, I cut them for Phantasmal Bear."

2cc Creatures
Yes, by all means, make life easier for me, Mr. Plays-Control-No-Matter-What. It's nice to have a target for Spell Snare.

Spell Snare, Spell Piere, Stifle
Any opponent with a brain is going to look at hyper-mana-efficient deck, then he's going to look at your untapped land, and he's going to put you on one of those cards. Then, once he's seen which one you have, he'll never run into it again. I advise against these. However, if you must run them, run 1 of each.

Sulfuric Vortex
It beats every control deck, on the off chance it resolves. All of those decks are bringing in Hydroblasts and/or Spell Pierces.

Pyroblast
Let me see if I understand your plan. You're going to take out a card that deals damage, so that you can run a card that makes sure your damage dealing card resolves?

The problem with Pyroblast is perennial. In this deck, you're bringing it in to stop Counterbalance or Show and Tell or some such. The problem arises when you consider that every time you draw it, that's 3 damage you don't have. That 3 damage usually translates into a turn that the opponent has to setup whatever it was that you were trying to stop.

Let me give an example as the CounterTop player, it's usually pretty obvious that you have it--although once in a blue moon you'll "get" me. So you leave a red up on two, instead of dropping 2 guys or cracking for Steppe Lynx damage, etc. Then, instead of casting my counterbalance, I just kill some of your guys, or counter your eot bolt. Then you go again, and once again leave up your R. On my turn 3, I drop CB, force your pyroblast, and the game is over.

This type of thing is even worse when you're trying to use K-grip or something to kill my CB.

----

The lesson here is that when you sideboard, you first need to consider if your deck is already optimized for the matchup (without being a different deck). It's okay for your plan to be "+0 cards and try to kill them again." Anything you do that slows your deck down is just playing into our hands.

Hanni

02-24-2012, 09:00 AM

Malakai, I'm not sure if you were directing your comments towards me or towards the other posters. If to me, I just wanted to chime in.

I was never intending on cutting Lynx. I have no intentions of running 2cc creatures, nor would I run Stifle/Pierce/Snare maindeck. This deck already beats Control decks that don't run Counterbalance, and I've actually 2-0'd Countertop Thopters a few times on MWS so far. Lastly, I cut the REB's out of my sideboard a week ago because I never needed them.

Malakai

02-24-2012, 09:48 AM

I was directing my comments at anyone running the deck. If I'm saying not to do something that you have already said you weren't going to do, well, ignore that part. For the most part I agree with your assessments.

Tombstalker

02-24-2012, 11:34 AM

Hanni- great deck youve come up with man. Looking at your list on page one I cant really fault any of your choices but I do have a few questions:

Steppe lynx- obviously this deck is different than zoo and while I havent tried your list (yet) I have piloted zoo and I have encountered times when I wished lynxes 0/1 ass was bigger after his pump had worn off. With that in mind would replacing the white splash with green be better?
Not saying to change anything else in the list, just switch lynx for a set of nacatls and maybe a couple goyfs but keep the sligh strategy rather than blue zoo. Whats your experience with G vs W splash?

Also I really liked griD's inclusion of F/I although maybe not at the expense of magma jet, idk.

Hanni

02-24-2012, 11:56 AM

Tombstalker

02-24-2012, 12:53 PM

I can understand why you might be skeptical of Lynx. I've tried to run it in both Zoo and Blue Zoo in the past with awful results. The reason why it doesn't work so well in those decks is because those decks need sustained damage dealers. This deck is different. It only cares about attacking during the first few turns of the game, at which point the deck then switches roles and becomes a burn deck. Lynx fits perfectly into this gameplan.
This actually makes perfect sense, im surprised I didnt see this earlier.

Fire/Ice is good in the builds running Nacatl and Kird Ape. In my build, Fire/Ice is uneccessary.
I guess F/I isnt necessary for the same reason that lynx is better here, i.e. switching to burn, right? Hmmm now you have me really tempted to sleeve this up instead of tempo thresh which im building atm.

Freggle

02-24-2012, 01:02 PM

I can understand why you might be skeptical of Lynx. I've tried to run it in both Zoo and Blue Zoo in the past with awful results. The reason why it doesn't work so well in those decks is because those decks need sustained damage dealers. This deck is different. It only cares about attacking during the first few turns of the game, at which point the deck then switches roles and becomes a burn deck. Lynx fits perfectly into this gameplan.

Fire/Ice is good in the builds running Nacatl and Kird Ape. In my build, Fire/Ice is uneccessary.

Lynx is a BEAST! If you run white and fetches, and your deck is not control you need a very good reason not to run him.

Basara

02-24-2012, 03:29 PM

Does the deck have problems against wasteland,stifle , etc mana denial plans?? , just 1 basic mountains seems dangerous to me..

Tombstalker

02-24-2012, 03:45 PM

Does the deck have problems against wasteland,stifle , etc mana denial plans?? , just 1 basic mountains seems dangerous to me..
This decks curve is so incredibly low I think mana denial strategies would be ineffective barring god hands and of course a very early blood moon.

Hanni- have you tested post board against specific hate, i.e. counterbalance, CoP-red, EE/pyroclasm effects and chalice of the void? If this deck does become a DTB, hate like this is bound to result so im curious what you anticipate will be your answers. In fact Many of these types of answers are already valid SB/MB options considering the current state of legacy...that is I think they are.

Hanni

02-24-2012, 04:46 PM

I guess F/I isnt necessary for the same reason that lynx is better here, i.e. switching to burn, right?

There are several factors that make Fire/Ice unecessary in my build. Fire/Ice is best in Blue Zoo, where it still wants to swing with Ape's, Nacatl's, and Goyf's in the midgame, where opponent's could have their own Goyf's, Knight's, etc to block. This deck doesn't care about swinging in the midgame, and burn is enough to removal early blockers. Delver flies over blockers, Lavamancer does direct damage, and Lynx outsizes everything in the early game (with Reanimator as an exception). The Fire aspect is useful to an extent, but Forked Bolt would be better in that regard.

Lynx is a BEAST! If you run white and fetches, and your deck is not control you need a very good reason not to run him.

I wouldn't go that far, but he is a beast in this deck.

Does the deck have problems against wasteland,stifle , etc mana denial plans?? , just 1 basic mountains seems dangerous to me..

Wasteland is a non-issue for the most part. I mean, it can occasionally screw me, but it's not consistently a problem. I run a basic Mountain which can cast the majority of my spells, and my curve is so low that it's usually not a big deal.

Mana denial plans in general aren't a big deal, but Smallpox is really bad for this deck. I've lost 0-2 both times I've faced Smallpox so far.

Stifle can be a pain in the ass, because it steals alot of tempo away. This deck doesn't want to play around the possibility of the opponent having Stifle either, for the same reason. I wouldn't say Stifle/Waste decks are a bad matchup, but making sure you keep a hand with more than 1 fetchland is crucial. 1 basic Mountain is plenty though.

Hanni- have you tested post board against specific hate, i.e. counterbalance, CoP-red, EE/pyroclasm effects and chalice of the void? If this deck does become a DTB, hate like this is bound to result so im curious what you anticipate will be your answers. In fact Many of these types of answers are already valid SB/MB options considering the current state of legacy...that is I think they are.

The only Counterbalances I've seen so far were against Countertop Thopter's. I've played against that matchup twice, and I went 2-0 both times. I can see certain Countertop builds being a nightmare; ones with SCM and 6-8 plow effects is probably a blowout (for them). The traditional Thopter's list is a fairly good matchup, though.

I've yet to see COP: Red. I do have Daze preboard to counter it, and both Delver and Lynx can still do damage. Postboard I get Disenchant, and Spell Pierce if I feel the need. Not something I want to see played against me, but I have outs. Luckily, COP: Red can be a little slow, costing 2cc to come into play, and an additional 1 mana per activation.

I've yet to see Chalice, but I'm sure it's a nightmare. Nearly my entire deck is 1cc. Hopefully I can either get a guy into play or Daze it before it lands, but if not, I'm pretty much screwed. Postboard, Spree/Disenchant will help alot. There's also the option of fitting in some EE's into my sideboard, should Chalice see more play.

For the most part, my sideboard is pretty flexible, so I'll adjust it if I start seeing alot of hate.

Hanni

02-24-2012, 07:47 PM

Holy shit. I just 2-0'd Smallpox. Daze is teh nuts in that matchup. I literally won game 1 because of a turn 2 Daze on his Smallpox. In game 2, I boarded out 3 Fireblast and 1 Magma Jet for 4 Spell Pierce. That was a tough long grindy matchup, that ended up with me on 0 lands for a while, and him at 3 life. Eventually ended up hitting a land and then a Bolt to win the thing. Daze and Pierce were the only reason I was able to get him to 3 in the first place. How about that, the blue splash takes a horrid matchup for traditional Sligh and makes it alot closer to 50/50. :)

I don't think I need the Flusterstorm in the board. The maindeck is extremely tight, and I cannot really see myself cutting 6 cards from it to fit in countermagic. Maybe against combo, but even then, Daze is still good (so I wouldn't cut them), and I don't want to slow my clock down. For combo, I think I'd cut 3 Grim Lavamancer and 1 Magma Jet for 4 Spell Pierce, and that's about the extent of it.

That frees up 2 slots. I mean, those were already my flex spots, but now they are really my flex spots.

Vacrix

02-24-2012, 08:10 PM

How was Pierce a factor in that Game 2 if you boarded them out?

Also, I thought I would mention some potential tech. Proclamation of Rebirth is mad card advantage, especially if you are expecting to run into a lot of removal. Reach spells might be better in general but Proc is a great topdeck if you are expecting to run into a lot of removal and/or trade against another aggro deck. Its probably more applicable to a metagame heavy with decks like The Rock, Aggro Loam, Landstill, ie. matchups that maindeck mass removal like EE and Deed.

Hanni

02-24-2012, 08:16 PM

How was Pierce a factor in that Game 2 if you boarded them out?

I boarded them in. I don't maindeck Pierce.

Also, I thought I would mention some potential tech. Proclamation of Rebirth is mad card advantage, especially if you are expecting to run into a lot of removal. Reach spells might be better in general but Proc is a great topdeck if you are expecting to run into a lot of removal and/or trade against another aggro deck. Its probably more applicable to a metagame heavy with decks like The Rock, Aggro Loam, Landstill, ie. matchups that maindeck mass removal like EE and Deed.

I'm not sure, really. My creatures kinda suck after the early game, that even bringing them back isn't always that great. Midgame Lynx's stay 0/1, and Guide's get chumped, although the suprise Haste could push some damage through. Not a bad suggestion, but at 2W, I can think of alot of other spells I could run. Browbeat immediately comes to mind, since it's either 5 damage or a draw 3, which is basically gg once resolved. Sulfuric Vortex being the other one that comes to mind, since it has wider applications than just being good against removal.dec

I'll keep the idea in mind though, I'm never opposed to trying sideboard suggestions.

Vacrix

02-24-2012, 10:27 PM

Hanni

02-25-2012, 02:21 AM

Well not necessarily. If your opponent just played a mass removal spell, its unlikely he is going to be able to chump your creatures. Further, consider what you'd be getting back. It won't always be Steppe Lynx's and Grim Lavamancers. x2 Goblin Guide and a Delver is a steal for 2W. Granted you won't always have a choice but if you have, say 4 creatures in your graveyard you can just pick the best three. I can see the card being difficult to sell if you are getting something like x2 Lavamancer, Lynx, but if you are getting something like x2 Lynx, Lavamancer, then you've probably already stuck a train spike through their head on the first couple turns so Proc might not even be necessary with access to Reach spells.. and Lavamancer. Sulfuric Vortex seems to slow for a deck thats so madly explosive. Lavamancer can deal 2 damage per turn in addition to whatever else you grab from the yard. Besides, if you grab x3 Lynx... your opponent will be shitting himself when you topdeck a fetchland. Just some food for thought.

Decks with mass removal spells are typically a blowout, unless they run Counterbalance. Sligh is basically a Burn deck, and slow control decks get steamrolled. I only run 15 creatures, of which I only care about them doing damage worth their cost. Even if I can never do any damage with them, I just play the Burn role. Firespout doesn't come online until turn 3 earliest, and Wrath of God doesn't come online until turn 4 earliest. I goldfish turn 3-4. Obviously against control I won't win turn 3-4, but that doesn't matter.

I'm not saying Proc is bad, I'm simply saying that more burn is almost always better against the decks where Proc would be good.

Also, have you tested Helix in place of Magma Jet yet? I heard it discussed earlier in the thread.

This keeps getting discussed over and over, and I'm not trying to be an ass, but I'm done repeating myself. Magma Jet's primary function is library manipulation, and its contending rival is Ponder. I choose Magma Jet over Ponder because it has burn attached, which is great for this decks burn density. I have won countless games because of Magma Jet, and I will not cut it for another burn spell.

This is not to solo you out, but more of a general remark to everyone else who suggests cutting Magma Jet for some other burn spell: Play The Deck First. If Magma Jet still isn't your cup of tea, then go ahead and cut it. Do as you will, I'm not your parent(s). Magma Jet is fucking phenomenal in this deck. It's an engine card that makes this deck more consistent, more resilient, and more lethal. Not to mention it's ability to help dig for crucial sideboard cards like Spree or Disenchant against a Chalice @ 1. At any rate, I've spent enough time discussing this issue. Do as you will, but I won't be cutting it.

Hanni

02-25-2012, 02:35 AM

I thought of a name for the deck! One that I'd like to use for the R/u/w splash, anyway.

Short story long, I was at my buddies house tonight drinking, and he's a gun guy. Anyway, he just bought a .45 cal single action 6 shooter. The old western style. It just popped in my head right now, but it's a perfect name...

Quickdraw.

That's the name I want for this deck. R/u/w Quickdraw, or just straight Quickdraw, I don't care.

Vacrix

02-25-2012, 03:58 AM

Decks with mass removal spells are typically a blowout, unless they run Counterbalance. Sligh is basically a Burn deck, and slow control decks get steamrolled.
Agreed except in the case of Aggro Loam.. cause stuff like Devastating Dreams destroys your lands too and burn doesn't like that very much. They can do that as early as turn 2, or turn 3 if they play around your Daze. Thats not a good enough reason to run Proc though. Deed is too slow for burn.

Quickdraw sounds legit. Reminds me of Quicksilver Dagger. Burn is kind of like throwing a knife at someone. Well.. more than one and they are all on fire. Guns sound remotely like Belcher, seeing as its both a Glass Cannon, and the win condition is literally a cannon.

I kind of like WUR Quick (we're Quick). lol

Hanni

02-25-2012, 12:14 PM

Agreed except in the case of Aggro Loam.. cause stuff like Devastating Dreams destroys your lands too and burn doesn't like that very much. They can do that as early as turn 2, or turn 3 if they play around your Daze. Thats not a good enough reason to run Proc though. Deed is too slow for burn.

If Aggro Loam hits me with Devastating Dreams, there's no way I'm going to be able to cast a 3cc sorcery.

Quickdraw sounds legit. Reminds me of Quicksilver Dagger. Burn is kind of like throwing a knife at someone. Well.. more than one and they are all on fire. Guns sound remotely like Belcher, seeing as its both a Glass Cannon, and the win condition is literally a cannon.

I kind of like WUR Quick (we're Quick). lol

Cannon's don't shoot fast. The old western style 6 shooters do. This deck is extremely aggressive and shoots burn pretty fast. I think Quickdraw fits this deck like a glove (not OJ's glove).

Irenicus

02-25-2012, 01:07 PM

Blue Sligh is a more appropriate thread title. Splashing green for Wild Nacatl is still a valid approach, and who knows what may get printed in future sets.

EDIT: In fact, cutting Grim Lavamancer for Wild Nacatl would make the deck alot more aggressive, at the cost of manabase consistency. For me personally, I'd rather have the manabase consistency, but the 4c approach is still valid.

I have been following the thread for a few days now and am thinking about building the deck. I am just not sure whether or not a 4c-version with Wild Nacatl is better than the 3c-version with Grim Lavamancer.

Hanni, have you tested any version with Wild Nacatl? I am still figuring out the manabase. For Nacatls you want at least 2 Plateaus in my opinion and similar to your version there should be 1 Tropical and 1 Taiga (analog to 1 Tundra and 1 Plateau for Lynx). Therefore I am currently toying with:

12 Fetchies

1 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
2 Volcanic Island
2 Plateau

I couldn't get the manabase right color-wise without cutting the basic Mountain. The Tundra was cut because I added an additional Plateau. Eight of the twelve Fetchies should be 4 Wooded Foothills and 4 Scalding Tarn because of Tropical Island.

What do you think about this possible manabase for a build with Wild Nacatl?

Thanks for all the content in this thread!

Irenicus

Hanni

02-25-2012, 01:36 PM

If you're going 4c, you pretty much have to cut the basic Mountain. You need to get all 4 colors, and basics are going to hurt you more than help you.

I have not tried the 4c Nacatl version of this deck. I tried the 4c version in Blue Zoo, so I do have some experience with it.

The manabase you listed looks fine to me.

For the fetches, you'd probably want 4 Foothills, 4 Tarn, 2 Mesa, 2 Strand, I think.

Hanni

02-25-2012, 02:32 PM

Irenicus, here's my stab at a 4c list:

R/u/w/g 4c Blue Sligh

// Lands (18)
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [R] Plateau
1 [R] Taiga
1 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Savannah

// Creatures (16)
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl

// Spells (26)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [AP] Fire/Ice
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
3 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [TE] Disenchant
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

This list is untested. I cut the Daze for Fire/Ice. Daze is great, but I think the deck will get more mileage out of Fire/Ice in this list. The deck really wants Fire/Ice to push as much damage through as possible, since 12 of my 16 creatures do groundbound damage. Daze is my only maindeck flexspot spell; the burn count cannot be lowered past the what it already is, and while Daze can increase my overall damage output, it's not as valuable as burn (except maybe vs Smallpox and combo).

This deck replaces the loss of Daze with the fact that all 16 of its creatures swing for chunks early game, and Fire/Ice increases the potential burn density even more.

I'm going to playtest this list when I get some time, and then I'll post my results and observations. If nothing else, the list looks alot more aggressive.

Oh, and I'm not 100% sold on my manabase, but this is where I'm going to start.

Kich867

02-25-2012, 02:32 PM

Hanni, I think you and I enjoy similar styles of decks XD.

I went to FNM last night, and over and over...I kept saying, "You know what I really want? Steppe Lynx."

Mishra's Factory stopped my goblin guide, my Delver's got killed, Snapcaster Mage sometimes just costs too much mana..

Had I had steppe lynx I could be swinging through and really be able to put pressure on him, but I couldn't..

There are just these moments where Goblin Guide is so terrible it hurts--namely, Mishra's Factory. Activate, block tap.. Delver's work, lavamancer's work.. I'm almost thinking about cutting the guides for Lynx's but, most likely I'll be cutting snapcasters and a ponder..

I'll probably be throwing down and grabbing what I need for this deck shortly.

Hanni

02-25-2012, 02:37 PM

Kich867

02-25-2012, 02:42 PM

Does Magma Jet in response to Factory tapping for +1/+1 kill the Factory? I've been away from Magic for a while, I'm not quite sure how that works anymore. If so, 4 Bolt + 4 Jet should be plenty to deal with Factory.

Lynx would definitely solve your Factory problem, though.

I'm not a fan of Snapcaster in aggressive decks whatsoever. I think Snapcaster belongs in control decks. But, tournament results speak for themselves, which seem to contradict my opinion.

Also, I would never cut Goblin Guide. He may have times where he's bad, but you'll find times where Lynx is bad too, and you'll have games where Delver just won't flip for several turns. It happens. Doesn't mean you shouldn't run them. They are the most aggressive 1 drops in the game, and that's exactly what you want in Sligh.

Jet would kill the factory, for sure. Replacing my Rift Bolt's for magma jets would actually be wonderful, I'm even leaning towards dropping Chain Lightning for Lightning Helix.

Chain Lightning is nice sometimes when going the distance, but..not..having instant speed removal is so frustrating.

And yeah, Goblin Guide's get there the most often, having more instant speed removal would solve the factory problem better. I think running white is going to be a big plus. Plus, once I get that going, I can start fiddling with fun things like adding in stifles and wastelands and see what happens ^_^;;.

Hanni

02-25-2012, 02:47 PM

I don't know if cutting Rift Bolt's is the right call either, though. If Chalice and Counterbalance start making a push back into the format, Rift Bolt and Fireblast are going to be your bread and butter.

At any rate, I don't know what your list looks like, so it's hard to make suggestions one way or the other. What I do know is that I'm happy running the best 1cc burn spells in the game (Bolt/Chain/Rift), along with the rest of my package.

Kich867

02-25-2012, 02:57 PM

Hanni

02-25-2012, 03:05 PM

Yea, the burn density makes a BIG difference. That's the primary reason I could never get Blue Zoo to work the way I wanted it to... I ran too much countermagic, and not enough burn. The burn density is pretty much what seperates Sligh from Zoo from U/R Delver from *insert aggro/control deck here*

The ability to just not care about your creatures because you know you can win without them makes alot of matchups much, much better. The Maverick matchup and board control matchups are perfect examples.

Basara

02-25-2012, 04:18 PM

what about tribal flames in the 4cc version???

Hanni

02-26-2012, 12:47 AM

what about tribal flames in the 4cc version???

Well, 1R for 4 damage is good. I just question how consistently the deck can hit 4 colors of mana and keep 4 colors of mana.

To be honest, I've played a few games with the 4c version, and I'm not really liking it. I suppose if I upped the land count to 20, it would work better, but then I expose myself to possible land flooding. My problem with going 4c is the consistency. There is no doubt that, when it draws correctly, it's much more aggressive than the 3c version. The problems occur when it doesn't draw correctly, i.e the deck doesn't get the right color of mana it needs when it needs it. With the 3c version, that barely ever happens.

Wasteland is a nightmare for the 4c list. Shrinking Nacatl's to 1/1 makes them worse than Grim Lavamancers, and keeping me off of casting crucial spells like Brainstorm is bad times. The 3c list shrugs off Wastelands, but the 4c list gets destroyed by them, and Wasteland is everywhere.

Casting Fireblast is alot less consistent with the 4c version too, although that may be due to my manabase configuration.

At any rate, I don't mean to discredit the 4c version, because it's potential power level is huge. However, I'm the type of player that prefers consistency, and so I'll be sticking to R/u/w.

ajfennewald

02-26-2012, 01:19 PM

Well, 1R for 4 damage is good. I just question how consistently the deck can hit 4 colors of mana and keep 4 colors of mana.

To be honest, I've played a few games with the 4c version, and I'm not really liking it. I suppose if I upped the land count to 20, it would work better, but then I expose myself to possible land flooding. My problem with going 4c is the consistency. There is no doubt that, when it draws correctly, it's much more aggressive than the 3c version. The problems occur when it doesn't draw correctly, i.e the deck doesn't get the right color of mana it needs when it needs it. With the 3c version, that barely ever happens.

Wasteland is a nightmare for the 4c list. Shrinking Nacatl's to 1/1 makes them worse than Grim Lavamancers, and keeping me off of casting crucial spells like Brainstorm is bad times. The 3c list shrugs off Wastelands, but the 4c list gets destroyed by them, and Wasteland is everywhere.

Casting Fireblast is alot less consistent with the 4c version too, although that may be due to my manabase configuration.

At any rate, I don't mean to discredit the 4c version, because it's potential power level is huge. However, I'm the type of player that prefers consistency, and so I'll be sticking to R/u/w.

Tribal flames is def consistent enough to make the cut in 4 color When you can cast it it rarely hits for less than 3 and 4 is pretty common. I think the fact it doubles as removal vs goyfs and knights in the early game is nice too.
Here is the mana base I have been working with
19 lands
4 tarn
4 foothills
2 arid mesa
1 misty
2 volcanic
2 taiga
1 plateau
1 tundra
1 trop
1 badlands

A basic mountain is worth considering in sb. It can be brought in RUG and maverick and such. Also the 4 color version is somewhat harder to play as you have to plan your lands well (i.e fetchign correctly, baiting watlenads with your worst land ect).

I would probably not play firebalst in the 4 color versions. Def not more than a 2 of. It works a little better in mine due to have 6 actually mountains.
I still like daze as at least a 3 of.
Here is what I will be testing some more
manabase from above
4 bolt
4 chain
4 tribal flames
3 rift bolt
2 fire//ice
2 ponder
4 brainstorm
3 daze
4 wild nacatl
4 delver
4 goblin guild
3 steppe lynx
Sb
4 spell peirce
4 FOW
2 krosan grip
1 ancient grudge
4 tormods crypt

Magma jet can replace ponder if that is your preference.
Also as Hanni said his 3 color version is probably better due to being more consistent.

ScatmanX

02-26-2012, 08:45 PM

A while ago there was a speed zoo/GRW sligh thread, that had the same concept. They used Reckless Charge, because it was insane with Lynx and Nacatl. Does it have a shot here?

While digging for that I remembered that Reckless Abandon exist. It must be nice saccing your near-dead Lynx/Guide, or the Delver that did lots of dmg, for 4 points of dmg. Do you think the 1 extra point of dmg is good enough to warrant it some slots over some other burn, or it is too situational?

Awesome deck by the way.

Hanni

02-26-2012, 08:52 PM

Reckless Charge and Reckless Abandon are both too situational.

Basara

02-26-2012, 11:27 PM

i dont about reckless charge , but reckless abandon seems pretty nice for the deck. you have enough creatures to justify a 2 or 3 of main deck , you say you only use your creatures for the first 2 or 3 turns , why then not fireblast them? for R , it surely is a bad top deck if you dont have creatures but.. i dont know maybe it can work

Hanni

02-26-2012, 11:39 PM

Not caring about what happens to my creatures past turn 4 doesn't mean that I want to sac them. If I haven't won by turn 4 but I still have a Delver in play, I'm going to keep swinging with it. Even an 0/1 Steppe Lynx can instantly become a 4/5 from a topdecked fetchland. Unless the Reckless Abandon is doing the final 4 damage ftw, I'm not going to want to sac my guys. It's also a dead card in hand when I don't have a creature on the board. Fireblast is great because it's free, and it quite often increases the goldfish by an entire turn (ex: Bolt, Bolt, Blast is 10 damage). Reckless Abandon is only 1 more point of damage over a Lightning Bolt, costs a creature, and is situational.

I've tried both Reckless Charge and Reckless Abandon in Naya Sligh before, and they were bad. I see no reason why that would change now.

However, I'm not trying to be a Nazi. If people want to slide a few of those cards in their deck, go for it. Or any of the other viable cards suggested, for that matter.

Vacrix

02-27-2012, 12:13 AM

Just noticed that Kiln Fiend could be happy here. Its consistently going to be a 4/2 or a 7/2. It could be this deck's version of Piledriver.

Games where you have Delver turn 1 (active turn 2), or Steppe Lynx turn 1 you'll be dealing something like 13 - 15 damage by turn 3 just with your creatures. That doesn't seem overly slow if you have fireblast to finish them off (or 3 bolt/lightning on turn 3). Its certainly a bad topdeck though if the game winds up dragging out.

Hanni

02-27-2012, 12:39 AM

joey223

02-27-2012, 11:25 AM

Now, if they ever print a 2cc creature that is a 4/1 with Haste, I'd run it.

LOL! i think everyone would!

ive been goldfishing the deck on cockatrice.seems that the deck has an avg of turn 5 kill.

the turn 3 kill is not as frequent as previously posted.now that doesnt make it a bad deck. its not. quite fun actually!

i could be keeping bad opening hands as well.perhaps im not mulling aggressive enuff.
a 1 land opening hand is a bit scary.1 wasteland and we could be stuck a few turns.

given all that , a turn 5 kill is still good.

i also thought about kiln fiend. i will give it a try.

ajfennewald

02-27-2012, 01:12 PM

My experince with both Hanni's 3 color build and my 4 color build is that they goldfish on turn 4 about 90% of the time. I large portion of those times they have done 15 damage or more by turn 3. About %5 of the time they kill on turn 3 and another 5% its turn 5 or 6.

Hanni

02-27-2012, 01:31 PM

75% of the time I do around 18 damage by turn 3, which means a couple of fetchlands would be a turn 3 goldfish. I do over 20 damage by turn 3 about 15-20% of the time, and I rarely ever goldfish past turn 4. Maybe I play the deck differently? I don't know.

Either way, the goldfish is different from an actual win against an opponent that interacts. The only time the goldfish matters is against combo, which I find to be a solid matchup in a best 2 out of 3.

I posted a game against a Stoneblade deck on page 1 of the thread, where I was hit by 3 removal spells and I had to burn a SFM. I won on turn 6 in that game. That's pretty good if you ask me.

Vacrix

02-28-2012, 09:17 PM

Well, Kiln Fiend is better than Tarmogoyf for this deck, so I'll include it in the list of playables.

For me personally, my stance is to not run 2cc creatures. Swinging on turn 3 is too slow. Now, if they ever print a 2cc creature that is a 4/1 with Haste, I'd run it.
I agree that 2cc creature would be fantastic.

Then again, Kiln Fiend swing on turn 3 is going to deal more net damage than your other creatures most of the time. Turn 1 Goblin Guide and Delver both deal 6 damage by turn 3. Turn 1 Lavamancer deals no more than 4 on turn 3. Steppe Lynx is the fastest, dealing anywhere from 4 to 8 damage by turn 3. Kiln Fiend will more than likely deal 7 damage by turn 3, and if you play 3 spells, thats 9 damage. Add in a fireblast, and you easily have a turn 3 kill. I'm thinking it will make the goldfish much faster. Further, its going to be the strongest creature if the game gets to turn 5 or 6, likely a 4/2, but with a good hand, a 7/2. I wouldn't over look this guy. He's capable of dealing more damage with this deck than any other 2cc creature in the format; even Piledriver.

Hanni

02-28-2012, 09:45 PM

I'm not overlooking him. I added him to the list of mentionables already.

If I were to add him, it would take Grim Lavamancer's spot. My problem is that the earliest he can swing is turn 3, which is around the time Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf come into play, in a large-enough toughness range than I cannot burn them out. 9/2 doesn't really matter, if the opponent can block him. If you don't drop him on turn 2, he's not swinging till even later, at which point, you probably don't have the instants/sorceries to feed him. At that point, you really don't want to be swinging anymore anyway with this deck... but there are exceptions to that.

Compare that to Lavamancer, who only loses me 1 mana of tempo if hit with a Swords/Bolt, etc. He doesn't push through as much aggression, but he's a multiple use Shock that can make dealing with problems like SFM alot easier, gets around big blockers like Knight and Goyf, and is a very decent topdeck in the midgame.

Again, I'm not dismissing Kiln Fiend. He can be good, and if I were going to run a 2cc creature, I'd most definitely want him instead of Tarmogoyf.

In fact, I think Kiln Fiend would be fantastic in a similar but slower deck like U/R Delver. In there, you have 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder to chain cantrips into burn to grow him throughout the game, you have Snapcaster Mage to buy back an instant/sorcery to grow him, you're positioned to continue swinging in the midgame because of the countermagic package which slows the game down, and that deck is in desperate need of a good finisher in addition to Price of Progress.

Vacrix

02-29-2012, 02:48 AM

Yeah Lavamancer is probably better.

I'm guessing Submerge is usually targeting Goyfs and Knights? Has it been a game changer or might that slot be open?

Hanni

02-29-2012, 08:06 AM

ajfennewald

02-29-2012, 08:35 AM

I no longer run Submerge in my sideboard. In almost all cases against an aggro deck with Forests, I'd rather have another burn spell, and I never boarded them in.

I guess I need to edit my decklist in the OP. My maindeck is still the same, but I don't run REB or Submerge anymore.

Here's my current sideboard:

4 Spell Pierce
2 Price of Progress
2 Shattering Spree
2 Disenchant
3 Tormod's Crypt

Which leaves 2 more spots. I have these filled with Sulfuric Vortex right now in case of a Chalice/Counterbalance outbreak, or against decks that SB into 10+ lifegain cards, but I've yet to use them. I'm not really sure what else I need right now, so basically I have 2 flex spots if/when I need them.
My initial thought on sulfuric vortex is that it can serve as proactive hate vs stone blade as well as being usable vs any midrange or control deck. With 4 artifact destruction already and vortex you prob have too many cards for the stoneblade matchup. I can see just cutting spree if you end up liking vortex and what to make room for anything else. Obv then you have less to bring in against actual artifact heavy decks but I don't think those are horrible matchups.

Vacrix

02-29-2012, 08:32 PM

Hanni

02-29-2012, 09:13 PM

If you'd rather have another Burn Spell post-board then maybe Lightning Helix would fit that slot better. I can see them having utility when you are racing another aggro deck, as they have plenty of removal for your dudes too, and they have guys to chump your guys. Further, stuff like Kird Ape, Nacatl, and Goyf can be problematic against Goblin Guides and smaller Steppe Lynx. It might help in matches against Lords too. How is the Merfolk matchup?

I meant another burn spell vs Submerge, i.e I wouldn't want to board out any burn for the Submerges. If I'm bringing a burn spell in against a deck like Maverick or Bant, I'm bringing in Price of Progress, not Lightning Helix. Helix would be better against other aggressive decks. I do run 2 flex spots though, so those could easily be Helix's for the mirror. Searing Blaze would also be another strong option for the mirror.

The Merfolk matchup? lol... this deck rapes Merfolk so hard it's not even funny. I mean it's a really, really bad matchup for them. I'd wager somewhere in the 80/20 range. 1/3 of my deck is burn spells, Grim Lavamancer destroys their entire creature base, Delver flies over everything but Coralhelm (who's gonna die anyway), and Lynx outsizes everything they play during the first few turns of the game (4/5's are bigger than just about everything during the first few turns against just about every deck though). I mean seriously, if Merfolk ever makes a comeback in the meta, and you want to eat some fried fish, this deck has one of the best Merfolk matchups in the game.

Irenicus

03-01-2012, 07:56 AM

@ 4c/3c-Version:

I can't playtest at the moment, but I have to agree with Hanni that the 4c-manabase is really bad against Wastelands and that Wild Nacatl isn't worth it. Therefore I will try to get some time to playtest the URW-Version or I just might play it in a small tournament without any playtesting.

@ SB-Options:

I agree that SB-Cards in aggressive strategies shouldn't be to reactive and therefore I was thinking about Pyrostatic Pillar. It should be one of the best combo-hosers for this kind of deck. I might play Ponder over Magma Jet in order to find proactive SB-cards faster. At the moment I am thinking about playing the following SB:

3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce
3 Disenchant-Effects
3 Tormod's Crypt/Ravenous Trap
3 Price of Progress

I am not sure about the 3rd Price of Progress, but I don't like playing only two in your SB, because in the matchups where you bring them in, they should win you the game.

Anusien

03-02-2012, 09:07 AM

Vapor Snag is a 100x better than Submerge, right?

I tried Wild Nacatl out. The mana becomes horribly inconsistent. Not only are the mana requirements worse, but you end up having to run more real lands over fetchlands, which makes the worse mana requirements harder to fulfill.

Magma Jet just seems bad. Burst Lightning and Incinerate both have to be better.

BlackStarDeceiver

03-02-2012, 09:15 AM

Kidding, right? Magmajet is pretty good to setup Delver without being forced to waste a precious Brainstorm before you need to.

ajfennewald

03-02-2012, 09:52 AM

As Hanni has said multiple times magma jet is alternative to ponder not other burn spells. The advantage of magma jet imo is that the actual burn density in the deck is higher. The advantage of ponder is that it is more effective at finding sidebaord cards (can dig 4 deep plus you get the card right now). In addition if you choose to run FOW in the side board ponder helps with blue count.

Anusien

03-02-2012, 11:45 AM

Magma Jet may be alright at setting up Delver and finding sideboard cards, but it is pretty terrible at actually being removal.

Malakai

03-02-2012, 01:18 PM

Magma Jet is bad, and vile, and terrible, but it just does so much work.

Hanni

03-02-2012, 01:43 PM

Aside from the seemingly non-existant Zoo matchup, I'm not sure why Magma Jet would be a bad removal spell. The difference between 2 damage and 3 is mostly irrelevant in the format right now, as far as removal is concerned.

Magma Jet is a worse dig spell than Ponder and a worse burn spell than Incinerate, but it does both at the same time. The Scry 2 is extremely relevant in this deck for both Delver and Lynx, and it's also relevant for the gameplan of the deck itself. The deck doesn't want to see more than 3 lands (with situations involving Lynx being an exception), and wants to draw burn instead of creatures in the midgame.

Spell Snare hitting Jet is irrelevant in the context that it's the only spell in the entire deck affected by it, making Snare a horrible spell for the opponent against this deck. The fact that Jet is a 2cc dig spell makes it an MVP in postboard games involving Chalice of the Void, which is arguably the strongest spell in the game against this deck.

So I'm not sure why this discussion keeps getting brought up 3-4 times per page of this thread... are people testing the deck and being disatisfied with Jet? I don't like drawing triple Jet in a game, but Jet has been one of the best spells in the deck for me. If you're disatisfied with Jet, just run Ponder instead and call it a day.

troopatroop

03-03-2012, 11:01 AM

I tried Wild Nacatl out. The mana becomes horribly inconsistent. Not only are the mana requirements worse, but you end up having to run more real lands over fetchlands, which makes the worse mana requirements harder to fulfill.

Welcome to the hardest deck in Legacy to build. Give it 9 months, you'll figure some things out.

ajfennewald

03-03-2012, 11:18 AM

Hanni

03-03-2012, 01:13 PM

Re wild nacatl. I am starting to agree it is not worth it. However to those who say the mana is horribly inconsistant that is kinda true but as troop indicated months of playing the 4 color mana base makes you better at knowing what land to fetch and what lands you want in the deck. For instance I don't like going trop nacatl into plateua against wastland decks if I can avoid it (if I don't have a 3rd land) because the wasteland is so bad for that opening.

But if your tempo gets limited by not fetching what would be the optimal configuration, or if your tempo gets limited because of a Wasteland, then what is the point in the 4 color splash in the first place? To play Nacatl over Grim Lavamancer? After playtesting the 4c base, I'm at the point where I'd rather play 3 colors and run Phantasmal Bear instead of Nacatl, if I want another early beater instead of Grim Lavamancer (I'm still happy with Lavamancer though).

ajfennewald

03-03-2012, 01:22 PM

My point was in this spot I could fetch taiga tundra. Then you opponent might not cut you off of red and even if they do your nacatl is still a 2/2. But you are right this leads to things like not being able to daze an stp or lighting bolt on the nacatl. I have some buddies coming over in a couple hours so I will be testing both builds extensively. I think I am leaning towards a version similar to yours though. Also I would def not play 4 colors without tribal flames though. Just nacatl is def not enough to justify it.

On an unrelated question what do you take out vs G/W and stoneblade. I assume you want some to all of you artifact hate but I don't like cutting burn for it. That is why I like sulfuric vortex against stoneblade. It hates the part of batterskull and jitte that we care about while being proactive.

Hanni

03-03-2012, 01:30 PM

I've been sideboarding out my Daze's for Spree/Disenchant in those matchups.

ajfennewald

03-03-2012, 01:53 PM

I've been sideboarding out my Daze's for Spree/Disenchant in those matchups.
That's what I was thinking vs stoneblade especially. Daze seems good against G/W but I would really hate to lower the burn density.
Have you considered 4 disenchants instead of a split. Disenchant is much easier to counter but ti deals with random burn hate that may show up (i.e. Cop red, worship, Leyline)

Hanni

03-03-2012, 01:55 PM

Have you considered 4 disenchants instead of a split. Disenchant is much easier to counter but ti deals with random burn hate that may show up (i.e. Cop red, worship, Leyline)

Yes, I have considered it. People seem to be playing Leyline alot more these days. I still prefer Spree against Chalice though, and that's the card I'm scared of the most.

ajfennewald

03-04-2012, 02:15 AM

Hanni

03-04-2012, 04:43 AM

Did some testing with both 3 and 4 color builds. Some observations

-My matchup seems slightly favorable vs RUG with the 4 color build. I only got a couple games in with the the 3 color build but it also seemed favorable probably a bit more so.
- G/W was pretty bad for the 4 color build. I did not get a chance to play it with the 3 color build but my issues were not mana issues in the games I played.
- stoneblade was pretty bad for both decks. I think I won about 5 of 14 or so split between the two.
- I won four of 6 vs sneak and show including all three pre board with the 3 color.
- I beat a midrange BUG deck pretty badly winning 4 of 5.
I won 4 of 5 vs a painter servent deck

I haven't gotten to playtest too much against RUG Delver, but my initial impressions are mixed. If they shred my manabase with the Stifle/Waste plan, they can totally screw me on mana, and then I lose. If they don't, my heavy burn gameplan beats their countermagic heavy gameplan.

G/W has been a great matchup for me preboard, as long as I take care of Mother of Runes. Postboard games can be difficult if they sideboard heavily. If they open with a turn 1 Leyline, and then proceed to drop Kitchen Finks and Obstinate Baloth, you're in for a tough match. I still think this is a good matchup regardless.

I think Stoneblade is a great matchup both pre and postboard. They run few bodies, and their only saving grace is Batterskull. In game one, it's pretty easy to kill them before they get an active Batterskull. In games 2 and 3, Disenchant/Spree deal with Batterskull even if they do get one in play before I can kill them. I've yet to lose a match to Stoneblade with this deck.

I've only played vs Sneak and Show once, and won 2-1, but the games were extremely close, and I almost lost the third game.

The other two matchups (Painter and BUG) should be blowouts.

ajfennewald

03-04-2012, 10:47 AM

I only played 3 pre board and 3 post vs G/W so they could have just been getting good hands. I would expect your version to be a bit better there be cause of grim and better mana base but not by a huge margin. Also I was testing with an oversized sideboard to test my options so i brought in artifact/enchantment removal not sulfuric vortex.

The stoneblade thing is interesting. i actually played against 2 versions. With the 3 color build I played one that included red for 4 bolts. This hurt the preboard game since I was unable to get creature damage through in some games. If I rememeber right I went (2 of 5) It sided into 4 more removal spells so the pretty much the whole 20 had to be done with burn post board ( I think I went 1 of 4 or 2 of 5). I used your sb plan here. With my 4 color build I played a straight U/W version. I think it was better than the U/W/r preboard (I won 3 of 4 I think) post board was a little worse I think I went 2 of 5. I played with the sb of 3 sulfuric vortex here. Interestingly they raced me every time I played sulfuric vortex. It is worth noting that both the decks I played played giest of saint traft not clique as the 3rd creature. This guy is kinda annoying cause he can be suited up with jitte and there is nothing we can do about it.

Yeah on RUG that was my impression. My game plan trumps theirs as long as i can execute it. I won a bit more than I lost but it might tip to more like even with an expericed pilot. The guy I was playing played the old Canadien thresh a couple years ago but he had never played the more modern deck. I think he is a very good played over all though.

One other thing worth noting is both people I played against knew exactly what my deck was trying to do. So there weren't many wtf misplays. Those def happed when I played blue zoo at the opens.

Anusien

03-05-2012, 02:31 PM

Sulfuric Vortex seems like an incredibly solid card in any matchup you expect to go long. It is also a very convenient trump in many ways to Baloth and Kitchen Finks (as well as Batterskull).

Anusien

03-05-2012, 02:33 PM

Welcome to the hardest deck in Legacy to build. Give it 9 months, you'll figure some things out.
It's not about figuring it out. It's about not being able to make your drops as consistently because you end up with more dual lands and fewer fetch lands in your hand, so your ability to hit all your colors are more luck based (which duals you drew instead of just fetching them out) and your Steppe Lynxes getting worse. Plus it makes the heavy R commitment cards worse because the ratio of mountains to non-mountains drops significantly.

Hanni

03-05-2012, 02:38 PM

Against the 3 color Stoneblade deck that boarded into 12 removal, I would have cut 4 Lynx for 2 Price of Progress and 2 Sulfuric Vortex I think. That way you run enough guys to force them to still dig for removal, but your burn density is large enough to still kill them before they can kill you. Obviously, as with any SFM deck, I'd also cut the 4 Daze for artifact/enchantment removal.

Anusien

03-05-2012, 02:46 PM

Cutting Daze is fine, but I'm not necessarily sure that bringing in artifact removal is incredibly relevant against them. I mean, you can easily replace one of the bolts with Smash to Smithereens; that doesn't have a cost. But I'm not sure I like Shattering Spree or something.

Also if they have THAT MUCH removal, who cares about your creature density?

ajfennewald

03-05-2012, 02:55 PM

It's not about figuring it out. It's about not being able to make your drops as consistently because you end up with more dual lands and fewer fetch lands in your hand, so your ability to hit all your colors are more luck based (which duals you drew instead of just fetching them out) and your Steppe Lynxes getting worse. Plus it makes the heavy R commitment cards worse because the ratio of mountains to non-mountains drops significantly.

my 4 color manabase has a heavy red bias for reference here it is
4 wooded foothills
4 scadinding tarn
2 arid mesa
1 misty rainforest
2 volcanics
1 taiga
1 badlands
1 plateua
1 tundra
1 savannah
1 trop

the problem is you can't really support fireblast well off this manbase which slows down the goldfish which negates some of the advantage of playing more agrro 1 drops and tribal flames.

Anusien

03-05-2012, 03:19 PM

Exactly. And by contrast you have 1 more land overall (and therefore 1 fewer spell) and 1 fewer fetchland than the sample manabase on the first page.

Hanni

03-05-2012, 03:20 PM

Well, I don't have a transformational burn sideboard, so I can't just cut all of my guys for matches that bring in 12 1cc removal spells + 4 Snapcaster postboard. Lynx is clearly the worst of my creatures in that matchup, so those get cut. However, still packing creatures forces their Brainstorm's and Ponder's to dig for removal instead of other spells, which keeps them busy while you burn them out. Ithere are no wrong threats, only answers. If they can't deal with a creature for a turn or two, then you got your damage through. Check my matchup vs UWr Stoneblade on page 1 of the thread, where I was hit by 3 removal spells early, still got 3 damage in with a Delver, and killed my opponent on turn 6 before he got an active Batterskull going. That pretty much sums up the gameplan vs heavy removal. That was also a preboard game. Vortex + Price would improve that even further.

I'm only running Spree right now because of my fear of Chalice. Otherwise, I would run Smash, which is typically better against everything else besides heavy artifact decks.

Anusien

03-05-2012, 03:33 PM

Hanni

03-05-2012, 08:47 PM

Goblin Guide is the worst creature in that matchup, not Steppe Lynx. Lynx is either first or second best. See Pat Cox's article today on SCG for more explanation (since Guide is the only one a Snapcaster Mage can kill).

By the way. seriously, stop pimping your random MWS match against a Stoneforge player. Not only is it hard to read, but doing so comes across as hopelessly amateurish.

I don't have premium so I cannot view the article, but there was a brief preview showing, and I already immediately disagree with what he said.

The preview says that Zoo was popular when Mental Misstep was everywhere, and then died after it due to Mental Misstep keeping combo in check. That's completely wrong. Zoo was dominant before Mental Misstep because of the saturation of Merfolk, started losing footing during the Misstep era, and then fell off the grid afterwards because of the huge rise in SFM-based decks with Batterskull that nixed Merfolk.

Again, I cannot see the rest of the article, so I can't see his article for his explanation of why I'm apparently wrong and you/he is right.

And actually, postboard vs 12 spot removals, Lynx IS the worst creature in that matchup. Lynx is extremely inconsistent at doing sustained damage, and with 12 spot removals, they will have an answer for him early. If you cannot swing on turns 2-3 (turn 4 at best) with Lynx, he's awful. You don't want to topdeck him.

Goblin Guide may not be much better, but if he's capable of doing 2 damage right off the bat at the beginning of the game, at least he is a Shock. In the midgame, who cares if they can cast a Snapcaster and block him. This deck is not designed around attacking in the midgame, and even if I topdeck one and try to squeeze by some unexpected damage only to be blocked by a Snapcaster, so what? Lynx would have come down as an 0/1 who's just going to sit there, and if they were casting Snapcaster to block Guide, they'd still cast Snapcaster in response to Lynx instead (Bolt in resp to fetchland activation).

If that guy's article is talking about U/R Delver, or some sort of Zoo list (which by the preview, looks to be the case), then how the hell would he know how Goblin Guide functions in a Sligh deck vs Stoneblade? This decks gameplan differs drastically from both of those decks.

And... pimping my MWS match? It's there for reference material. Hard to read? I bolded the important parts. Hopelessly amateurish? So you come into my thread, make some bad suggestions about cutting Magma Jet for a bad burn spell like Incinerate (after the issue has been discussed about 20 times now), and then insult me?

ajfennewald

03-05-2012, 10:12 PM

Hanni at least in the SCG opens you are wrong about the success level of zoo. From the banning of survival to misstep zoo was pretty marginal (its win % against the field was less than 50%) in the misstep era it returned to being a deck with a greater than 50% win% against the field. post banning it has returned to a marginal 48ish % deck against the field.

As you said though his article is about zoo not sligh.

on another note I am leaning towards something like this for the GP
lands 19
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Plateau
1 Tundra
1 Mountain

// Creatures (14)
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Steppe Lynx

// Spells (27)
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
2 Fireblast
3 lightning helix

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Price of Progress
SB: 2 force of will
SB: 2 sulfuric vortex
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 3 tormods crypt

Hanni

03-05-2012, 10:38 PM

I'm not talking about the Survival era, because that era was obviously dominated by Survival. The funny thing is, if Zoo would have adjusted and shifted to a Sligh gameplan, it could have done well.

Merfolk was a dominant deck for a very long time, and enjoyed success that started during the CounterTop era because Merfolk crushed that deck. In the way that Merfolk was the metacrusher for blue, Zoo was the metacrusher for Merfolk.

Zoo's numbers during the Misstep era pale in comparison to its performance before Survival Vengevine. The fact is, Zoo lost its footing a while ago when the format shifted. The popularity of Stoneblade has pushed Merfolk out of the format. Combine the fact that Merfolk is nowhere right now, with the fact that Maverick is the new "beat blue," which also has a strong matchup against Zoo, and it becomes understandable why Zoo is not seeing alot of play anymore.

Blue Sligh is alot better positioned in the metagame right now than Zoo, for numerous reasons.

ajfennewald

03-07-2012, 11:18 PM

Anybody else playing some version of this deck in GP providence?

Hanni

03-07-2012, 11:19 PM

If I owned actual cards and was able to attend, this would be the deck I'd play, without a doubt. Unfortunately, I don't own cards and I'm unable to travel right now. ;)

griD

03-15-2012, 08:49 AM

Confirming Fire//Ice is not very good in this deck, Magma Jet is much better. The reasoning that seeing 2 cards > drawing a random one (and not using Fire) is correct; also this deck doesn't care about enemy groundpounders.

A card to look at might be Forked Bolt because it can clear the way in turn 2-3 for your beaters and is very flexible - could be something for the Sideboard vs Maverick. It did well in the GP as it seems.

subzero

03-21-2012, 06:34 PM

hi guys,
i see this forum, and see that other guys, have my same idea,

i m starting to play landafall boros, but i pout inside my deck littel spalsh blue, for play
4x delver
4x brainstorm

so i play

4x delver
4x steppe lynx
4x guide
3x lavamante

4x bolt
4x chain
4x firebalst
4x lava spike
3x pop
2x searing blaze

4x brainstorm

at least is very similar to sligh, the only point is, that creatures are not red, but white and blue,

but i want ask, if some of you, have tried with good results at some tournamnt?

Vacrix

03-21-2012, 08:48 PM

I agree about SB Forked Bolt. 2 for 1 on Hierarch/Mom is pretty tight. But does this deck have trouble against Maverick? I'd think they are too slow to set up before you've clocked them in the face a few times, and then you have reach spells. They mostly rely on equipment and Knights/Goyfs. I'd think the Punishing Fire versions might give this deck a little more trouble considering they can kill all your creatures with it.

Hanni

03-21-2012, 09:01 PM

I'm more worried about Swords to Plowshares than I am about Punishing Fires. Fires is a bit slow.

And no, this deck does not typically have problems against Maverick. I did lose a few games against a Maverick deck with maindeck Finks, SB Leylines and Obstinate Baloth's in postboard games, but that's about it.

Vacrix

03-21-2012, 09:30 PM

How well are you racing storm combo? I'd imagine you can do enough damage to make AdN subpar. Fireblast gives you an advantage too. Post-board Spell Pierce and Daze can counter the initial rituals.

Btw I just got Cockatrice so I'm gonna play the shit out of this deck.

Hanni

03-21-2012, 09:35 PM

The deck is fun, consistent, easy to pilot, and top tier. If you like aggressive decks, you'll enjoy it.

As far as combo, the matchup is solid. This deck goldfishes turn 3-4. Postboard Daze + Pierce buys the 1-2 turns this deck needs to win. ANT has serious problems against the lifeloss, and this deck can race an EtW. Not the best matchup for this deck, obviously, but it's not horrible. You can always fit some Flusterstorm's in the board if you need more stuff.

Vacrix

03-21-2012, 09:44 PM

Which matchups justify Spell Pierce over Flusterstorm?

Kich867

03-21-2012, 09:58 PM

Which matchups justify Spell Pierce over Flusterstorm?

Probably ones that don't involve storm. Flusterstorm can't hit enchantments or artifacts iirc, so Spell Pierce is your better option vs non-storm combo decks.

Vacrix

03-21-2012, 10:07 PM

Yeah I figured, but I figured that this deck could race those decks. Now that I think about it Counterbalance, Sneak/Show, and Reanimator are all matchups you'd want Spell Pierce else they get a lock piece or a fierce clock.

Anusien

03-21-2012, 10:09 PM

Decks that run Punishing Fire are begging to die to Price of Progress.

ntropy

03-21-2012, 11:18 PM

Has anyone tried out Jotun Grunt in this list? I thought of him while putting this list together to test, but I thought someone else might have tried him already. At 2 mana he seems high on the curve, and vulnerable to Spell Snare, but he's consistently big, and with so many fetches feeding Steppe Lynx, he might stick around a while too.

Vacrix

03-21-2012, 11:20 PM

It conflicts with Grim Lavamancer a little and its not quite as good as dropping 2 guys on turn 2. Even in longer games, its the initial turns of the game where you hit them the hardest. After that its just reach spells to the finish line.

subzero

03-22-2012, 06:50 AM

hi guys,i d like try to this deck at tournament.

but i don t know how put in sideboard,
against combo is better flustestorm or pierce?

about land, how is your mana base?
because at now i play

12 fetch
3 vulcanic
2 plateau
3 montagne

i don t play daze at now in deck,

about deck is really strong? can fight against tier1?

Anusien

03-22-2012, 09:31 AM

What do you run in place of Daze?

subzero

03-22-2012, 07:06 PM

hi, i play

4x delver
4x lynx
4x guide
3x lavamancer

4x lava spike
4x bolt
4x chain
4x fireblast
3x pop
2x searing blaze

4x brainstorm

i don t play daze, beacsue i run like monored sligh-burn,

Vacrix

03-22-2012, 07:11 PM

Its a bit off kilter but how about Gitixian Probe if you don't want to play Daze? Its never a bad topdeck, and its going to help you better decide how to play your burn spells, or avoid over committing into EE, etc.

Hanni

03-23-2012, 10:03 AM

Gitaxian Probe is not needed here. Knowledge of the opponents hand does not change the way you play the deck, since the deck is so linear. This is also not a combo deck that needs to check the opponents hand to see if it needs protection.

Daze is a flex spot in my deck, so cutting it for more burn isn't bad. I like Daze personally, I think it serves a great function in the deck, but they aren't necessary.

However, you should at least be running 2 Magma Jet or 2 Ponder in addition to Brainstorm. Consistent Delver flips and land drops for Lynx is important, and preventing land floods is also important.

Hanni

03-23-2012, 07:39 PM

So... I'm testing a new build. So far I'm 8-0 in matches (14-4 in games). My most impressive win was 2-1 vs Dragon Stompy. He dropped a turn 1 Chalice on the play in game 1 and I immediately scooped, opened a hand with double Shattering Spree in game 2 (which was nice because he dropped a Chalice on turn 1 and turn 4), and blew him out through a turn 2 Trinisphere in game 3 off of early beats and a Sulfuric Vortex.

Anyway, I'll post the build, then explain the differences:

R/u/w Blue Sligh
Quickdraw, the Six Shooter

// Lands (18)
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [U] Plateau
1 [U] Tundra
1 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures (16)
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 [M12] Phantasmal Bear
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx

// Spells (26)
4 [NE] Daze
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
3 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 2 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [TE] Disenchant
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

Well, this idea all started when I was thinking about Magma Jet. I love the card in this deck, but I was thinking that 4 was too many. The manipulation is fantastic, but 2cc is a bit slow, and a 4/3 split of Brainstorm/Jet sounded like a good call.

The free'd up space got me thinking. Grim Lavamancer is also a bit slow. Hands with double Lavamancer felt very weak in comparison to something like a double Delver or double Guide. At first, I considered cutting one and doing a 2/2 split with Phantasmal Bear. Then I decided, for playtesting purposes, I wanted to try 4 Bears. 4 would give me a greater chance of seeing them, and I wanted to see them as often as possible to test their strength in the deck.

Well, it turns out that Phantasmal Bear is pretty good. Double Bear draws are not as good as double Guide or Delver, but so much better than double Lavamancer. They have the same power as a Kird Ape, and while Kird Ape's extra toughness can sometimes be relevant, Bear doesn't have the drawback of shrinking to 1/1 after a Wasteland. Being targeted is irrelevant, because just about anything that would target Bear would kill Kird Ape too.

The increase in aggression and pressure has been awesome. He's blue, which while not as good as red like Lavamancer, is still awesome on my manabase. Going up to 16 creatures which can overrun the opponent early is just nuts aggro pressure that alot of decks aren't equipped to deal with, and even if they can, the double threat of burn to the face is really hard to beat.

Actually, now that I'm up to 16 blue spells maindeck, Force of Will for the sideboard becomes an option. Although... I think I'd still rather run Spell Pierce. But we'll see.

I'm diggin this build at the moment. I may end up going to a 2/2 split of Bear/Lavamancer, but I'm pretty sure that either way, Bear is here to stay.

mcfarland

03-23-2012, 09:44 PM

Hanni - I really like your list. Mine is very close, with the exception of not running Lynx... it's explosive, but it messes around with my wasteland vulnerability and it gets in the way of me playing PoP, which tends to be an MVP. I see a lot of folks swearing by it; I guess I should give it a shot.

Here's what I've been playing for a few weeks, with a lot of success:

Lands
7 [DPA] Mountain (2)
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Island
3 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa

Creatures
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
3 [PD2] Grim Lavamancer
3 [M12] Phantasmal Bear

Spells
4 [PD2] Fireblast
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [PD2] Chain Lightning
4 [PD2] Price of Progress
4 [PD2] Lightning Bolt
1 [AL] Pyrokinesis
2 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt

Sideboard
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge

Bear is pulling his weight. Originally, I was testing out Stromkirk Noble in that slot, but I wasn't happy with it.

The singleton Pyrokinesis has turned a few matches around, and I find that it's usually a 2 for 2 at worst. Might up it to 2 main...

Hanni

03-24-2012, 12:41 AM

3 out of every 4 decks I play against run Wasteland. My manabase is extremely solid against Wasteland. I splash white for four maindeck cards, of which I only want to cast on the first few turns of the game. If I don't have a Lynx in my opener, I almost never fetch white. I run 12 fetchlands to play around Wasteland, the single Mountain to give me a secure red source, and 99% (not literally) of my spells cost 1 mana. It's the Stifle/Wasteland plan that can give me problems. Or Smallpox, which is one of the most problematic cards for this deck to deal with, but luckily I have Daze (and Pierce postboard) for that.

Maindeck Price of Progress can be the right call in some metagames, but I feel that it's too hit or miss for a large event like a Grand Prix (which is the way I build all of my decks). Some games, it will completely blow an opponent out all by itself. Other games, you're sitting on 4 dead cards. Some decks run few to no nonbasics, but some decks run alot of basics. Smart players with basics will fetch basics when they figure out what you're playing.

In you're case, it looks like you cut Daze for Price. I won't make an argument there, since Daze is a flex spot for me. Personally, I've had Daze win me so many games I had no business winning that I wouldn't cut them, but it's not a necessary card.

However, you can still effectively run Price in the 3c version. First of all, this deck is more aggressive than just about any deck out there, so any self-inflicted damage is most likely going to be irrelevant. In the case where life matters, the deck runs Fireblast to mitigate the self-inflicted damage. Gimping yourself to 2 colors to run Price is okay, but you're losing out on so much by not splashing white.

Steppe Lynx is easily my decks MVP, even more-so than Delver. Swinging for 8 damage by turn 3 for a single mana invested is rediculous. Paying 1 mana and swinging with a 4/5 on turn 2 is the tits. I've had games where I've dropped another Steppe Lynx on turn 2, and swung with two 4/5's on turn 3. In a deck full of Bolts, i.e 1 mana for 3 damage, Lynx is far and away the best burn spell in the deck. How can you pass on 1 mana Tarmogoyf's?

Other than that, I'm glad that you like the deck, and that our lists are fairly similar. I very, very rarely lose when I load this deck up on MWS. I have no idea why Burn is a DTB, while this deck is hardly played. This deck is lightyears better than traditional Burn; it's faster, more consistent, and more resilient to hate.

Vacrix

03-24-2012, 01:26 AM

If Burn doesn't get hated out quickly, this deck could contend for DTB status. It isn't that much harder to play either.

Hanni

03-24-2012, 01:31 AM

Vacrix

03-24-2012, 06:19 AM

Just played a few games. I played the stock list -1 Fireblast -1 Price of Progress, +2 Phantasmal Bear. Bear was good and its ability completely irrelevant. Post-board I played 4 Force of Will just to test it out. Terrible choice, Sulfuric Vortex would have been way better. Also, Steppe Lynx didn't impress me as much as I thought it would. I'm thinking of cutting something for another fetchland.

I played against UWB control (2-1), UR Sneak/Show (1-2), and 2 BW control (2-0), (1-2). Batterskull is really good if it gets online. Also, I ran into Warmth twice so Sulfuric Vortex would have been better than Force.

I'm going to test a list with 4 Unstable Mutation tomorrow. Your opponent will be taking at least 11 by turn 3 with just that and a non-Lavamancer creature (can't run Bear with this). Sounds like it could be good.

subzero

03-24-2012, 11:49 AM

yesterady i arrived final with this ruw burn
my list i wrote before

23 players 4 round top8

1- vs patriot uwr i win 2-0
2- vs stoneblade wb i win 2-0
3- vs time spiral i win 2-0
4- id

top8 vs ant i win 2-0
top4 vs pox wb i win 2-0
final vs thopetr combo i lose 0-2 (both game land sensei land counterbalance, )

so, this deck i think is really tier, becasue the base is from burn or landafll boros or ur burn, so, this deck can take strong form evey of theese decks,

at first have 12 great creaures

but i m happy till not many players play this deck.

joey223

03-24-2012, 12:41 PM

well done on your top 4 finish!

please give us some insight as to what you think would help the deck or what you think is hurting it based on the games you played.

thanks.

ajfennewald

03-25-2012, 06:39 PM

The deck is good enough to be a DTB, but the only thing that actually makes a deck a DTB is Top 8 placings. In order to make Top 8 placings, people have to play the deck. As far as I know, no one is piloting this deck at big events.

Also, this deck still wins games against hate.
Either you are facing bad pilots or I am playing bad but I have pretty bad records vs G/W and stoneblade. In my experience the games tend to be close and a mediocre player will screw something up. You see a lot of players who don't pilot there decks well on MWS/cockatrice.

Hanni

03-25-2012, 10:47 PM

Kich867

03-26-2012, 04:00 AM

Sligh and Burn decks have always had a strong matchup against G/W Midrange aggro decks. I'm not sure why you've had problems with it. Care to post your experiences with why this is a bad matchup?

As far as Stoneblade is concerned, the only problem is Batterskull. Jitte can be a problem to an extent, but it's fairly easy to keep them off of creatures. I've lost some games to Stoneblade, it's not an auto-win matchup or anything, but it's still been favorable in my experience.

At any rate, I've decided to go to a 2/2 split of Phantasmal Bear and Grim Lavamancer.

It's not actually easy to keep stoneblade off of creatures, G/W midrange is probably favorable towards us but stoneblade sure as hell isn't.

With the advent of esperblade, having Lingering Souls and Bitterblossom, you can't keep them off creatures--if you are, then you're certainly not winning.

Lately my matches go something like this: I drop a dude, they sword it EOT, I daze or it happens, then turn two I drop a dude or not because the deck doesn't actually run that many creatures--if I burn them they drop stoneforge and win, so I need to hold those, then they drop stoneforge and grab either jitte or batterskull (Doesn't matter which) and I try to kill it, then they either let it happen or force it because it doesn't matter, and then somewhere between all my shit dying and getting countered a batterskull hits the table and I lose. Dramatized version of it for sure, but it's honestly not even that far off.

The mid-game is usually just a fight to land stoneforge and win, if jitte gets on the field it's over--if you're burning creatures you aren't burning them and you -will- lose the attrition fight.

You can read my description of UR Delver on that thread, I'm not happy with this archetype right now and I don't think flopping lynx in there actually fixes anything. The top tier decks will stall you out, you might sneak a game or two here and there, but as a general statement, they will stall the game out into the late game where they have bombs and your bullshit 2/2's don't cut it. Their creatures are bigger, lifegain auto-beats burn, their removal means more and is more flexible, and too many of their strategies inherently beat the sligh strategy without actually needing to focus on it.

magicmoron

03-26-2012, 08:19 AM

@kich867
In my playgroup we have tested the stoneblade and the maverick (all builds) extensively. I play this deck at two weekly legacy tourneys of between 20-30 people. Maverick is definitely in blue sligh's favor since they do not have counter to stop the burn or kill of grim easily. That match up is less the swords and more who sticks mother vs. grim lavamancer. The only maverick build that has given consistent problems to me is the Brian Kibler build that drops the stoneforge package to run more jitte, the sword package takes a lot of resources to get online and if you are burning and hitting with creatures they simply cannot recover. Esper is little more difficult and I have not tested this matchup extensively but have played it several times, again hear it takes a lot of resources to get the lingering souls/bitterblossom stoneforge package online, but if they have two counters and stp w/lingering souls with or without swords the game seems to be theirs. Just my 2 cents

Hanni

03-26-2012, 05:14 PM

It's not actually easy to keep stoneblade off of creatures, G/W midrange is probably favorable towards us but stoneblade sure as hell isn't.

Sure it is. Most traditional lists run roughly 12-14 creatures, all of them having a toughness of 1 or 2, which means they all die to Lavamancer and Magma Jet in addition to my other burn spells.

Now if you're talking about the Souls build, then sure... but that build is so slow that it shouldn't matter.

Burn is a DTB right now because the SCG metas were nothing but Stoneblade and Maverick. All this deck is, is a better Burn deck.

What in Stoneblade is beating you? Batterskull and Jitte are the only two cards in that deck that stop you, and both of those are still incredibly slow (in Batterskulls case, it's slow in the fact that they don't gain life until turn 4, and if you kill the SFM, Batterskull sits in their hand dead).

You guys are telling me that my two good matchups are bad matchups and I don't get it. This decks beats Maverick and Stoneblade. RUG Tempo is the only one of the three top tier decks that isn't favorable. Even then, it's more of a coin flip on whether or not they can blow me out with Stifle/Waste.

With the advent of esperblade, having Lingering Souls and Bitterblossom, you can't keep them off creatures--if you are, then you're certainly not winning.

Okay cool, let them make a bunch of tokens. By the time they start getting tokens into play (turn 3), I'm probably done swinging anyway. Burn to the face should end it, which will happen even sooner if they are losing life to Bitterblossom. The ONLY problem card there is Jitte, which they run 4 SFM and 1 Jitte. You do realize that 5 cards does NOT guarantee that they are going to see it soon enough to be relevant, right? I hate to say it, but Stoneblade doesn't always have the turn 2 SFM.

Lately my matches go something like this: I drop a dude, they sword it EOT, I daze or it happens, then turn two I drop a dude or not because the deck doesn't actually run that many creatures--if I burn them they drop stoneforge and win, so I need to hold those, then they drop stoneforge and grab either jitte or batterskull (Doesn't matter which) and I try to kill it, then they either let it happen or force it because it doesn't matter, and then somewhere between all my shit dying and getting countered a batterskull hits the table and I lose. Dramatized version of it for sure, but it's honestly not even that far off.

I'm not sure what build you're running to really comment on how your matches go. However, 16 1cc creatures has been more than adequate for me to drop multiple creatures into play consistently. I don't always get the nuts of turn 1 one drop, turn 2 double one drops, but I'm usually able to get at least two guys down by turn 2. Even when I don't, they don't always have the turn 1 StP.

How is all of your 16 creatures dying to their 4 StP's, yet you're not able to keep them off of Batterskull/Jitte with your 16+ burn spells?

The mid-game is usually just a fight to land stoneforge and win, if jitte gets on the field it's over--if you're burning creatures you aren't burning them and you -will- lose the attrition fight.

The midgame is a fight for them to land a SFM or lose. How you're interpreting it the other way around is beyond me. They either stick a SFM or they die. All of their creatures are horrible on defense, so it's not even like they are getting a valuable trade out of blocking a Lynx, Guide, or Bear, they can't block Delver, and Lavamancer does direct damage.

You will lose the attrition fight, I totally agree. That goes without saying against almost any matchup. If you're at turn 8+ and haven't dealt 20 damage... something went wrong somewhere, you should probably scoop, and move on to game 2 or 3.

None of this is even assuming postboard games with Spree/Disenchant either, where if they lose Batterskull/Jitte, they just roll over and die.

You can read my description of UR Delver on that thread, I'm not happy with this archetype right now and I don't think flopping lynx in there actually fixes anything.

This deck is NOT U/R Delver. Aside from the fact that I absolutely hate that deck name, this deck plays fundamentally different anyway. Steppe Lynx does in fact fix everything about that deck. U/R Delver is a mashup of aggressive creatures that are horrible going long (Guide), and slow controllish creatures that are horrible aggressively (Snapcaster). The deck plays not enough countermagic to be a tempo deck, and not enough burn to be a Sligh deck. It's strategy is unfocused, and is reliant on a resolved Price of Progress in the midgame to seal the deal.

Steppe Lynx takes me up from 8 strong one drops that U/R Delver runs (Delver and Guide), to 12. That means I am more consistently hitting a strong efficient p/t one drop on turn 1, and I'm more consistently hitting multiple strong efficient p/t one drops by turn 2. This means I'm more consistently applying pressure in the early game, which means I need less resources (burn) on turns 3 and 4 to close the game out. On top of that, my burn density is far higher than U/R Delver, which means I in fact do have enough gas (burn) to close the game out, regardless if my early aggro plan doesn't get to do much.

This is also the reason I've added in Phantasmal Bear. Now instead of 12 strong and efficient one drops, I'm up to 14. The two additional Lavamancers on top of that aren't bad either, since they still contribute to the aggro rush while being consistent damage dealers later on.

What happens if I drop 3 creatures and eat 3 creature removal spells early, and my opponent drops a SFM? In U/R Delver's case, they'd be screwed, because Price of Progress isn't doing enough damage to close the game out by itself, and the decks burn density isn't high enough to kill the SFM and still burn the opponent out. In my case, I just burn my opponent out. I already cited a matchup against a Stoneblade deck on page 1 of this thread that illustrates that scenario.

The top tier decks will stall you out, you might sneak a game or two here and there, but as a general statement, they will stall the game out into the late game where they have bombs and your bullshit 2/2's don't cut it. Their creatures are bigger, lifegain auto-beats burn, their removal means more and is more flexible, and too many of their strategies inherently beat the sligh strategy without actually needing to focus on it.

How are the top tier decks stalling me out, exactly?

My bullshit 2/2's aren't meant to get in there on turn 6. They should have already done their damage early game, when my opponent had either no creatures to block, or a bunch of bullshit x/1's, and my opponent should be low enough in health that by the time they drop their big Knights or Elspeth's or Jace's, that I'm only a burn spell or two away from the win (or I've already won by turn 6).

The only strategy that inherently beats Sligh are decks that are faster (combo), resource denial (Smallpox), turn 1 Chalice/Trini, Counterbalance (if they can answer the early aggro rush in time), and lifegain. Maverick and Stoneblade have lifegain, but it's dependant on getting an active Jitte or Batterskull, which is a daunting task against an assload of burn and sideboard artifact removal. It's also possible for me to drop a Sulfuric Vortex faster than a Batterskull or Jitte can get active. Or, you know, I can simply kill my opponent before those get active.

I'm just not getting where all of this "Sligh sucks" shit is coming from all of sudden. Just play a different deck then, if Sligh isn't working for you.

Also, I'm more than willing to backup my claims against those decks. Hit me up with a private message, and load up some Mavericks and Stoneblades on MWS with me. I promise not to cry if I'm proven wrong.

Tombstalker

03-26-2012, 06:15 PM

Ya im really not seeing the bad matchups for sligh either. This deck is what zoo should have been...could still be with nacatl/ape instead of delver/bear. Losing brainstorm and daze would be huge, probably too much, but they would gain access to pridemage and teeg among other things.

Anyway I think the latest versions of canadian thresh would be the most problematic of the DTBs barring combo, with CTs mana denial plan, increased burn count and counterbalance I would think the matchup is in their favor.

Hanni

03-26-2012, 06:58 PM

Anyway I think the latest versions of canadian thresh would be the most problematic of the DTBs barring combo, with CTs mana denial plan, increased burn count and counterbalance I would think the matchup is in their favor.

This is probably the case. I haven't played against any builds running Forked Bolt, and I haven't played against any builds with CounterTop postboard yet. This matchup is probably miserable. Either I get blown out by Stifle/Waste, or I get locked up with CounterTop.

Anyway, I edited the original opening post with my current decklist. I'm satisfied with the current configuration 100% and I doubt I'll be making any more changes to it anytime soon.

Vacrix

03-27-2012, 06:25 PM

I agree about GW midrange, this deck steam rolls them unless they get a fantastic hand. Against Stoneblade, I always board in my Disenchants and Shattering Sprees. The initial turns of the game set them back about 7-10 life and then you close the rest of the game with reach spells and keep them off equipment with your hate.

I've been trying Unstable Mutation in varying amounts and its been great so far. It turns a 0/1 Steppe Lynx when you aren't drawing lands into a 3/4 beater. Usually its U for 5 damage (3 on the first turn, 2 on the second), and obviously the most it does is U for 6. I'm not sure if it deserves a permanent spot in the deck but its an absolute beast against some decks. Its certainly upping my turn 3 percentages when the creature doesn't get STP/PtE. I'm playing it in place of PoP right now, PoP's in the board. Against decks with heavy creature removal, I board it out for PoP, cause those decks are usually playing a bunch of non-basics anyway.

Observe..
T1: Fetch, Volcanic Island, Goblin Guide, swing 2 (18)
T2: Fetch, Plateau, Unstable Mutation, swing 5 (13), Chain Lightning (10)
T3: Mountain, swing 4, (6), Lightning Bolt (3), Chain Lightning (0)

T1: Fetch, Volcanic Island, Delver
T2: Flip Delver, Fetch, Volcanic Island, Unstable Mutation, Suspend bolt, swing for 6 (14)
T3: Bolt resolves (11), swing 5, (6), Bolt, Chain Lightning

T1: Fetch, Plateau, Steppe Lynx
T2: Fetch, Volcanic Island, Unstable Mutation, swing 7 (13), suspend Rift bolt
T3: Bolt resolves (10), Volcanic Island swing 4 (6), Magma Jet (4), Fireblast (0)

Hypothetical goldfishes.. but I've had games like this I just can't remember them exactly. I've goldfished like this against storm combo, lands.dec, and Sneak/Show so far. Otherwise, you chop the clock down by a turn because they have a blocker or you play a burn spell to make way for your Unstable'd guy (if its not Delver).

Anusien

03-27-2012, 07:53 PM

Hanni

03-27-2012, 08:59 PM

Sulfuric Vortex is a beating against CounterTop and Jitte. If you can land that, you aren't really threatened by Umezawa's Jitte or Batterskull.

It and Price of Progress are both very very good against the decks you're having trouble with. I would max those out.

I'm running a 2/2 split in the board, which has been working well. I can't rely justify going up to 4 Vortex since it's 3cc, and the maindeck is really tight... what would you board out to bring in 8 cards?

I doubt you'll beat Dredge or Reanimator even with 3 Tormod's Crypts, so you can steal slots from there and from Shattering Spree.

I've actually been doing decently against Dredge, which may or may not be due to both the particular build(s) and pilot(s). If they have an explosive hand and can shred me with Therapy early, I lose.

Daze can hit the turn 1 Faithless Looting, which slows them down alot. Postboard, a single Crypt buys me the time I need to secure a win, but I haven't been aggressively mulliganing into them. I've also been considering bringing in Spell Pierces, since hitting their early explosive cards like Breakthrough, Looting, and LED is such a strong play. I haven't brought them in yet, though.

Against Reanimator, I bring in Spell Pierce and Crypt. Between Daze, Pierce, and Crypt, I have the tools to buy enough time to win. This matchup has also been decent. Like Dredge, it's not a fantastic matchup, but I've won games against it. I treat these matchups as coinflip matchups, the same way I treat Spiral Tide and Tendrils Storm. Considering how bad these matchups were for Zoo, and how bad they are for Burn, I'm pretty happy with my performance against them. These aren't matchups I want to run into in a tournament, but I'd much rather run into combo than Smallpox or Chalice.

Don't forget, this deck can goldfish on turn 3, and almost always goldfishes by turn 4.

subzero

03-31-2012, 02:19 PM

hi guys, last friday i play final in 22 players little tournamnt

yesterday i won in 16 players little tournamnt

4 round top4

1 vs white stacks lose 1-2
2 vs rogue madness win 2-0
3 vs enchantress win 2-0
4 vs affinity win 2-0

top4 vs maverick win 2-0
final vs reanimator win 2-1

same my list

4x delver
4x steppe lynx
4x goblin guide
3x lavamancer

4x brainstorm
4x lava spike
4x bolt
4x chains lighting
4x fireblast
3x price
2x searing blaze

4x scalding tarn
4x arid mesa
2x misty rainforest
2x wooede fothils
4x volcanic
2x plateau
2x montain

in my side i put now 3x disenchant

so my new side will be

4x faerie macabre
3x flustestorm
3x disenchant
2x red elemenatl blast
2x sulfuric vortex
1x path to exile

about game, is easy to say.

i run with my creatures and bolt in face of opponent

i see that this deck is very strong,
yesterady in many match opponent start with white leyline, but i can win with power creatures

kicks_422

04-01-2012, 01:22 PM

I've played every single incarnation of Sligh that has graced Magic. I even wrote an extensive primer on Dryad Sligh way back before Tarmogoyf existed.

I do have to say that this is probably the most aggressive Sligh build ever created. Blisteringly fast and surprisingly resilient.

Kich867

04-03-2012, 09:44 PM

Stuff.

True enough, the deck isn't UR Delver, your assessment of it was highly accurate in that it has no real direction and is lost between being a tempo deck and being a sligh deck.

The only thing I would have to disagree with is the assertion that Stoneblade doesn't always have a stoneforge on turn two. They always do :frown:

DragoFireheart

04-03-2012, 10:06 PM

I wouldn't run more than 2 Vortexs personally. They can easily clog up your hand early on. They're good, but not 4-of good and arguably not 3-of good.

Also, is there nothing better than Grim Lavamancer? He's a good creature but I feel he's more of a control card and less of a Sligh card. He's got reach and can ping, but whenever I have used him I feel like he just slows me down. He sorta seems out of place compared to the goblin, kitty, and insect wizard.

troopatroop

04-03-2012, 11:11 PM

has anyone given thought to Gut Shot? Seems good against Maverick/Delvers/Nacatl

Vacrix

04-03-2012, 11:52 PM

If they open with Taiga or Savannah then its can't hit Nacatl. Either way, you basically want them at like 14 life or below and then just hit them with reach from that point onwards. Anything else just speeds up that process. You don't really need to clear the way for your dudes when you can just go for the throat.

kicks_422

04-04-2012, 10:05 PM

just a question. why run phantasmal bear over isamaru, savannah lions, and elite vanguard? you don't need it to be blue since you're not running force. would the 1 toughness matter?

im asking because running more white cards would balance out the mana requirements, with almost equal blue and white cards in the 75. just a nuisance on my deck building style, so i'd understand if it's a bit petty.

Oiolosse

04-05-2012, 12:22 AM

I think that the hate people will start packing for Maverick would pose a problem for those mentioned alternatives. Keeping it blue is smart, even though I really don't like that card.

kicks_422

04-05-2012, 11:17 AM

what do you mean by hate for maverick? if you mean anti-white cards, i doubt they'll be bringing them in for a predominantly red deck.

Hanni

04-05-2012, 12:12 PM

I play Phantasmal Bear over the white alternatives because it is better for the manabase. The deck has 4 maindeck white spells. In addition, those 4 spells are at their best when cast on turn 1 or 2, meaning that if I don't have one in my opener or topdeck one by turn 2, I never need white mana. Being able to play games as a straight R/U deck is sometimes valuable in playing against Wastelands.

It's a subtle nuance. If you prefer, run a 1/1 split of Isamaru and Lions. It's not going to make that much of a difference.

DKK

04-07-2012, 07:20 AM

I was just wondering if Searing Blaze has ever been tested? It would fit nicely as the deck is full of fetchlands, and in theory it would remove blockers for your turn 1 dude while also inflicting damage. Downside is that it's dead against decks packing no creatures, but I could see running it as a 2-of in a more creature heavy meta.

Qweerios

04-07-2012, 09:00 AM

What is the reason for Shattering Spree instead of Smash to Smithereens in the SB? Isn't landing 3 damage off a removal spell rather than removing 2-3 artifacts a better form of card advantage for Sligh? I assume that it is the card's uncounterability or low mana cost that would make it better but I don't see how that would give it an edge over instant speed and extra damage against any of the artifacts you would want it for (Chalice, Jitte, Batterskull, and even CB/Top).

Vacrix

04-08-2012, 03:50 AM

http://i42.tinypic.com/sblk6x.jpg
Lol Miracles.

Could this replace Fireblast? 4 Brainstorm and 3 Magma Jet makes this awful dirty when you aren't just natural drawing it. Maybe Jet ought to get one more slot?

JDK

04-08-2012, 01:03 PM

Here's a working image (http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3986/52410810151467075355307.jpg).

I would immediately try it out instead of the two Phantasmal Bears.

Vacrix

04-08-2012, 01:42 PM

I'm also going to try that but cut a Fireblast as well. I wonder if this will up our turn 3 percentages, or if its just going to help us with Reach spells given that we run Daze, Magma Jet, and Brainstorm for consistency and tech. 5 damage is huge for this deck. Turn 1 they are at anywhere from 16 to 12 just from our creatures. Then add in 5 damage from Thunderous Wrath, 11 to 7, assuming Brainstorm/Bolt on turn 2, 8 to 4, and then close the rest with other Burn spells on turn 3 with the other 2 mana.

Brainstorm sucks in Burn eh? Magma Jet too? Hmm.. I hope the mono-red advocates in the Burn thread eat their words.

JDK

04-08-2012, 02:00 PM

Kich867

04-08-2012, 03:21 PM

Well, you cannot compare UR to straight Burn. It's a different strategy and eating their words won't be necessary because their statements were based on the pre-miracle era for the mono red gameplan.

I will try 2-3 Wraths, which sounds like the best amount to me.

I really don't get why you people keep saying that. It's not a different strategy. Delver of Secrets is a flying lightning bolt and brainstorm ensures we don't run out of gas. That's it. You take mono red burn, you make the mana base slightly less stable, for a faster win with a lower chance of running out gas.

How is that so hard to understand? Even this deck, Blue Sligh, functions identically to burn, except it wins turn 3 and burn doesn't. It's faster than burn and even runs fewer creatures than many burn lists.

Vacrix

04-08-2012, 04:16 PM

Its because it looks different than most Burn lists. Regardless it has a congruent play style, plays many of the same cards Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Rift Bolt, Price of Progress, and Fireblast. Thats roughly 20-22 of the same fucking cards not including some of the Burn lists that run Magma Jet (23-25). Then, it plays Steppe Lynx (4-8 for W) > Hellspark Elemental (2RR for 6), Delver of Secrets (EVASION) (6 for U) > Keldon Marauders (5 for 1R). Brainstorm and Jet allow you to consistently find the reach spells you need to bring the opponent to his knees, while mono-red Burn durdles around in topdeck mode hoping to draw the right cards. Daze improves the Pox matchups as well as anything that threatens your board such a Chalice @ 1, Trinisphere, or even combo decks trying to drop a piece or cast a ritual. Daze also protects your dudes from removal or effectively stops them from playing a dude to block your Goblin Guide and/or Steppe Lynx, as well as synergizes with Steppe Lynx to make Daze effectively create 2 more damage for 0. Also, this version of Burn doesn't lose to STUPID shit like Chill, Warmth, and COP red.

Also, this deck looks very much like UR Delver if the opponent doesn't know its coming. That means you might have Force of Will or Spell Pierce in hand, possibly leading the opponent to waste a valuable turn playing Discard or cantripping into protection while you try to get their lifetotal down low enough that Ad Nauseam is no longer possible. Then in game 2, you actually get Spell Pierces and surprise the fuck out of them.

The fact that some Burn lists run more creatures than this one is actually pretty hilarious if you think about it. Everyone is calling this deck Sligh but honestly Burn plays such shitty creatures that there is no reason for them to protect them or remove blockers because they die quickly anyway to their own abilities. This deck plays creatures that not only don't die, are consistently drop able on the first turn and often capable of doing 6-8 damage by the third turn with just one creature. Also, Delver has flying and Steppe Lynx is conditionally large so we often don't encounter blockers that we would need to remove anyway.

BTW I keep calling this deck WUR Quick. Gets me everytime.

JDK

04-08-2012, 04:22 PM

Vacrix

04-08-2012, 04:44 PM

Because that's how I see those strategies.

URx Sligh (list from the first post):
Play fast creatures, clear their path and finish the game with the burn spells or the creatures itself. Splash to use counters to have an answer to threats and play cantrips to not run out of fuel or into dead cards and also take advantage of the other color's high damage cards and anti-hate.

Burn (successful lists in the SCG opens):
Play fast creatures, but do the majority of the damage with burn spells. Only play business and no or few fetchlands to stay single colored, keep a stable manabase and win with cards like Price of Progress and Flame Rift.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a "Brainstorm & Magma Jet are bad"-guy. In fact I like URx much more, but I still think these decks are different.
From the opening post:

Fundamentally, Sligh is a deck that wants to drop creatures on turns 1-3 and swing as aggressively as possible, and then switch over to being a burn deck, pointing all of the rest of the burn it has or draws at the opponent's face to end the game as fast as possible.
The difference is you aren't playing shit like Jackal Pup these days. You can Daze blockers, fly over them, or simply swing through. I find the opponent sees a Steppe Lynx. They don't often block it because they don't know how many fetches you are sitting on. So that leaves Goblin Guide.. which is played by Burn as well. The majority of the damage comes from Burn spells. If you encounter blockers, you just win turn 4, you rarely waste Burn on your opponent's creatures when you can just point it at their face. This deck wins with PoP as well on occasion, though honestly I would describe Burn as winning with PoP and/or Fireblast. Flame Rift is just another Burn spell. Besides the stable mana base and fetchlands, 'Fast creatures and the majority of the damage coming from Burn spells describes both decks'; however, one deck sacrifices that stable mana base so that it can do more shit. Burn is too linear, too easily hated out, a full turn slower on avg, runs inferior creatures, and sucks a fat one in topdeck mode. I see what you are saying but I disagree. A stable mana base is what limits Burns potential as a deck. Why does it need a stable mana base again? So you can cast double Fireblast? Really? The deck can afford to lose a land to Wasteland, even play through Wasteland + Stifle given that current lists play 18-20 lands. You could call this deck a good version of Burn, but I'd like to think that Burn is a shitty version of this deck. Delver and Steppe Lynx are the best Burn spells you are going to get for U and W, even if they just swing once they are worth the investment.

EDIT:
For the record, I understand your POV.

I figured this was worth mentioning though:

Burn is in the DTB section because of its success against the current meta.
Most, if not all, the Burn configurations that been successful in the current meta use the Burn Core, as shown below:

Lightning Bolt
Chain Lightning
Lava Spike
Rift Bolt
Fireblast
Price of Progress
Goblin Guide
Flame Rift (note that, for now, I personally consider this card to be part of the Core, as evidenced by its frequent use in successful Burn builds)

Flame Rift is sort of on the fence of being considered in the core. I've actually played a list of WUR Quick that played Lava Spike. Does THAT mean it can be considered Burn? If we are playing the entire Burn Core? This deck can easily run a playset of Lavaspike. Just drop 2 Bears and 2 Lavamancers. It actually works quite well.

Kich867

04-08-2012, 04:51 PM

Vacrix

04-08-2012, 04:59 PM

How is this any different than burn? And how is burn any better when burn is a turn slower than this deck, with worse card selection, with worse creatures, and is incapable of utilizing what will soon be one of the most hyper-efficient burns ever printed?
Apparently they are more competitive because they play Mountains and Barbarian Rings.

JDK

04-08-2012, 06:00 PM

Vacrix

04-08-2012, 07:03 PM

I agree. All the Burn vs. Sligh talk is making my brain hurt. We've said enough on the topic.

Wrath I expect to be played as a 3 'of, likely a 3/2 split.. 3 Wrath, 2 Fireblast. Seems legit. Unfortunately you can't get a turn 2 kill but you can deal 16 damage max by turn 2. So what do you guys think? Will Wrath replace Fireblast or compliment it?

JDK

04-08-2012, 08:08 PM

Wrath can be played on turn two already, while Blast needs to be used as a finisher pretty much - but they both do a lot of damage, so my guess is they will see play in the same deck.

Vacrix

04-08-2012, 08:41 PM

The only downside to Wrath is that its more often than not going to get played on turn 3 if you don't natural draw it. Brainstorm turn 1 is obviously a suboptimal play so if its not already on the top of your deck on turn 2 drawstep, then you have to wait til turn 2 to play Brainstorm or Magma Jet to find it and put it on top. I don't know yet if that slows the deck down. Could even speed the deck up.

The question is how many Wrath is optimal? The more you play, the higher your chances of flipping it for a Miracle. Got turn 1 Delver, turn 2 Flip, hit them for 8 total, Bolt them. They are at 9 turn 2. Plays like that put even more pressure on ANT and TES to go off on turn 1 on the draw or turn 2 on the play.

Kich867

04-08-2012, 08:58 PM

@Kirch
Nowhere did I say Mono-R Burn is better. Please stop putting words in my mouth or trying to start an anthem on how much better deck X is compared to Y. That is not the point. The point is the two decks follow a slightly different approach and the fact that you ignored the rest of my post and just bashed on the "clear the path" part shows me that you are not interested in a discussion.

Boiling down the gameplan won't do the trick, because you can reduce every strategy to similar ones.

@both
The manabase is an essential part of both strategies and regardless of which one is better, there is a significant difference. If you don't see the difference between those two approaches as I do, we should just drop this discussion and focus on R/u/x Sligh again, because we obviously won't come to an agreement. You think it's the same strategy, I don't. That's it, we are all entitled to our opinion because we emphasize different things.

Now back to Wrath. :wink:

I didn't say you did, I was strictly asking a question, it was a general inquiry as to why one would ever opt to play burn over this deck besides a price tag. The only two decks that pray on non-basics are RUG Tempo (which people have been dropping stifle out of rapidly if you take a quick peek at their thread, so this isn't a definite concern anymore) and you, burn. Which we can play around POP all day because the deck can still win on turn 3 fetching basics (I regularly do this with UR Delver).

It was the only part I focused on because it's the only actually incorrect thing you said. The only other variance between the two decks are brainstorm and daze which don't factor into the strategy of the deck they just save it from terrible situations. Even the idea that our manabase is something different or foreign is kind of comical, this deck should be able to operate on basics just fine. The manabase isn't a point of contention, even burn can run fetches and regularly does (and probably should to support Grim Lavamancer).

This idea that they're incomparable because they're too different is comical, sligh isn't what it used to be, sligh is the new burn. That's what I said you said, and that was accurately addressed.

Miracle is an easy discussion--it'll be tested as a 2 or 3-of, it'll likely end up being a 2-of because you don't want to see more than 2 ever and the requirement of having a brainstorm to deal with one in your opening hand makes it slightly unattractive if you don't happen to see a brainstorm, which absolutely happens. It leans on being unlikely, but it can happen, and the reliance of brainstorm to be useful feels sketchy.

It's powerful, and I think as a 1-2-of will be fine, but anymore pushes it to a card that you simply see too much of for requiring more than one card to be truly effective.

Furthermore, in RUW Sligh, where there's dozens of ways to win on turn 3, the unnecessary requirements in order to utilize the card feels unjustified to run in the deck. It feels more like a win-more.

Hanni

04-08-2012, 10:01 PM

Woah, lot's of discussion going on in here. I like it.

First of all, as a quick tidbit to the Sligh vs Burn debate...

I agree that this is basically a better Burn deck, which I've already said several times in the thread. Just because this deck runs less Burn spells, doesn't mean it that it draws less burn spells. Brainstorm is the most powerful card in the Legacy format, period. Cutting 4 shitty burn spells for 4 Brainstorm is a massive improvement to the "burn" archetype. In fact, back about 2 years ago, I actually built a R/u Burn that splashed blue for 4 Brainstorm (as my only blue spell).

Secondly, why would I ever want to cast inefficient creatures like Hellspark Elemental, when I could cast Delver instead? My creatures are more efficient damage dealers for their p/t to cost ratio, and easily have the potential to do more total damage on top of that.

As I also said before, there is absolutely no reason for Burn to be a DTB right now when this deck is not, in terms of tier quality. The only reason it's not is because of it's lack of popularity.

Moving on...

Thunderous Wrath looks pretty good. I like and dislike the card, although I agree that 2 is probably the correct number. Drawing it in the opener sucks, but topdecking it in the midgame is pretty good. I'm not sure if I'd want to cut 2 Bears or 2 Lavamancers for it, but I still think 3 Fireblast is the right number.

I also want to point out that Magma Jet does nothing to improve the card (and neither does Ponder). You either draw the card and cast it for R, or it's stuck in your hand. Neither Magma Jet nor Ponder fix this problem, only Brainstorm does.

On a final note... keep the discussion going. :)

JDK

04-08-2012, 10:51 PM

It's fine, if you don't want to drop the discussion about the similarity between Burn and Sligh, but then let me add some things.

The only two decks that pray on non-basics are RUG Tempo (which people have been dropping stifle out of rapidly if you take a quick peek at their thread, so this isn't a definite concern anymore) and you, burn. Which we can play around POP all day because the deck can still win on turn 3 fetching basics (I regularly do this with UR Delver).
Stifle and Canadian Threshold is still heavily played in Europe (the continent Austria is on). Burn too, because it is a working budget deck.

Even the idea that our manabase is something different or foreign is kind of comical, this deck should be able to operate on basics just fine. The manabase isn't a point of contention, even burn can run fetches and regularly does (and probably should to support Grim Lavamancer).
Fetchlands != Duals. Wastelands see more play than Stifle and the manabase IS an essential part of the decks, so why not take them into account? PoP makes heavy usage of the manabase, which plays a central part in Burn's strategy (given that I look closer at the game plan and not boil it down). Plus I don't think this deck would be as good if it didn't play any duals (not saying it would be bad...but playing a Goblin Guide T1 while Dazing something wouldn't be possible).

Now we are back to "You think it's the same strategy, I don't. That's it, we are all entitled to our opinion because we emphasize different things.". :/

Oh and please stop calling me "Burn" and yourself "Sligh" (you refered to Burn as "you" and to sligh as "us"). I like this deck more than Burn, so it's foolish and sounds like you are just blindly talking about the love of your life without even noticing what's going on around you.

As I also said before, there is absolutely no reason for Burn to be a DTB right now when this deck is not, in terms of tier quality. The only reason it's not is because of it's lack of popularity.
"DTB" takes into account the popularity, which is relevant for metagame analysis. So there is nothing wrong with it, even if there are stronger decks.

Thunderous Wrath looks pretty good. I like and dislike the card, although I agree that 2 is probably the correct number. Drawing it in the opener sucks, but topdecking it in the midgame is pretty good. I'm not sure if I'd want to cut 2 Bears or 2 Lavamancers for it, but I still think 3 Fireblast is the right number.

I also want to point out that Magma Jet does nothing to improve the card (and neither does Ponder). You either draw the card and cast it for R, or it's stuck in your hand. Neither Magma Jet nor Ponder fix this problem, only Brainstorm does.
I will definitely try to replace the Bears, because they are the only thing I don't like about your list. ^^

Magma Jet doesn't help triggering Miracle, but it helps us getting the spell faster (as in "increasing the possibility") in top-deck mode.

Kich867

04-08-2012, 11:25 PM

Fetchlands != Duals. Wastelands see more play than Stifle and the manabase IS an essential part of the decks, so why not take them into account? PoP makes heavy usage of the manabase, which play a central part in Burn's strategy. Plus I don't think this deck would be as good if it didn't play any duals (not saying it would be bad...).

Oh and please stop calling me "Burn" and yourself "Sligh" (you refered to Burn as "you" and to sligh as "us"). I like this deck more than Burn, so it's foolish and sounds like you are just blindly talking about the love of your life without even noticing what's going on around you.

Ok, so Sligh doesn't fetch duals. They fetch basics. The gameplan and functionality is still the same. I already addressed this concern--both UR and WUR sligh can function and win on turn 3 fetching only basics. The dual lands aren't part of the strategy, they make the deck more flexible when it can be--if you knew more about the decks (at least UR) you'd know that fetching duals is something you try to avoid.

Much like flame rift, which hits you for four (god forbid price of progress hits you for 2 or 4!), hitting yourself with PoP is fine because your opponent is dying faster, a lot faster. Note, I generally cast PoP and in response fireblast my nonbasics away if I'm actually in fear of dying from the damage.

But the bottom line is, how can duals possibly be the differentiating factor when they aren't even necessary to the deck's turn 3 or turn 4 win?

I don't know why you made such a comment at the end either--I don't even play this deck. I play UR, which functions under similar principles and has a less consistent turn 3 win because I don't own a tundra and don't intend to buy one. Moreso I play Nic Fit which is hardly a fast deck anyways..

The burn strategy is just one that intrigues me. This deck is currently the strongest burn deck around so I'm inclined to look into it.

kicks_422

04-09-2012, 04:51 AM

while the 5 damage is awesome, i've always felt that running potential dead cards in sligh goes against the deck's philosophy of efficiency. that's why i've always hated searing blaze, for example.

still 5 damage is 5 damage. and with brainstorm in the deck, we should probably give it a shot.

Vacrix

04-09-2012, 04:33 PM

You could avoid having the dead draws by playing something like Pyrokinesis. It can clear the board of blockers. Though the deck would be playing a lot more like Sligh than Burn in that case. I agree though. Its probably a 2'of at best and won't replace Fireblast.

Brushwagg

04-10-2012, 09:16 AM

I've been throwing this deck around a little bit and just wanted to add something to the Thunderous Wrath debate. I could see Wrath replacing 1 Rift Bolt, 1 Magma Jet. It does the same thing as Rift Bolt just a turn faster. As for Magma Jet you could get away with 3 just fine.

Hanni

04-10-2012, 02:32 PM

Actually, I've already cut down to 3 Magma Jet. I'm pretty confident that 3 Jet is the correct number.

DKK

04-10-2012, 04:56 PM

Hanni, what is your current list?

Brushwagg

04-10-2012, 05:06 PM

Actually, I've already cut down to 3 Magma Jet. I'm pretty confident that 3 Jet is the correct number.

But you also play Bear and I do not. Not a fan of it.

Vacrix

04-10-2012, 05:56 PM

It's actually not bad. I haven't even run into the problem of it getting Dark Blasted or something which wouldn't kill it. Tarfire, Bolt, Chain, Magma Jet.. The kill spells in Legacy all kill it either way. Its just U for a 2/2 with a drawback that is rarely relevant.

Reach spells might be better in its place though.

kicks_422

04-11-2012, 07:47 AM

Is this card good?

Vexing Devil R
Creature - Devil

When Vexing Devil enters the Battlefield, any opponent may have it deal 4 damage to him or her. If a players does, sacrifice Vexing Devil

4/3

I don't know where to fit them in, honestly. Lynx, Delver, and Guide are better than it, and I'm not cutting my Lavamancers. I also don't feel comfortable cutting burn for creatures, so...

Qweerios

04-11-2012, 09:08 AM

:rolleyes:
Is this card good?

Vexing Devil R
Creature - Devil

When Vexing Devil enters the Battlefield, any opponent may have it deal 4 damage to him or her. If a players does, sacrifice Vexing Devil

4/3

I don't know where to fit them in, honestly. Lynx, Delver, and Guide are better than it, and I'm not cutting my Lavamancers. I also don't feel comfortable cutting burn for creatures, so...

Uh... this card IS burn, not a creature. Wizard basically printed a 4 damage Lava Spike. Definitely a 4-of for any Sligh/Burn deck for its sheer power/cost ratio.

Kich867

04-11-2012, 09:52 AM

Hanni

04-11-2012, 10:16 AM

Kich867

04-11-2012, 10:22 AM

OMFG is Wizards serious? R for 4 dmg, R for 5 dmg? I think they are seriously trying to push Burn in Standard or something. That's great news for Legacy Blue Sligh, which is awesome.

Obviously, the Bears in my list become Vexing Devil's. If they take the 4, that's 2 swings worth of Bears. If they don't, it's a 4 power 1 drop.

Would there be any argument to dropping steppe lynx for him? Steppe lynx is only conditionally a 4/5, and while it survives more stuff (sort of, only when attacking), it's not always a 4/5, where this is always a 4/3, in the color of mana that one would want when playing this deck.

Hanni

04-11-2012, 10:46 AM

Well, I still think Lynx is a better creature.

The thing with this is that it's either a R for 4 dmg spell if they don't have removal/blockers (which is fantastic, don't get me wrong), or a 4/3 when they have an answer.

Lynx, on the other hand, frequently does 8 dmg for W.

The Vexing Devil definitely belongs in this deck in some numbers, but I'm not sure how many, and it's not a replacement for Delver, Guide, or Lynx.

ScatmanX

04-11-2012, 11:00 AM

That's it.
I'm going to proxy this deck.

kicks_422

04-11-2012, 11:24 AM

I was just about to ask if splashing for Lynx is still worth it if Red already has access to a 4-power 1-drop.

The more I thought about it, I stand firm on what I said that Lynx, Delver, and Guide are still the top three creatures, just as Hanni already said.

I've won countless games on the back of Lavamancer alone, mostly on situations wherein an attacker won't push through, so I definitely have a soft spot for him.

Here's my MD:

18 lands

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
4 Brainstorm

Koby

04-11-2012, 01:53 PM

@kicks_422
In your list I would rather play 2 Forked Bolt and 2 Ponder in place of Magma Jet. For its cost:effect ratio you're realy losing a lot of tempo that could be used to either find gas or clear blockers. At 2 mana however, that's too slow to maintain a good aggressive position. I like especially that it can nail a lot of the format's early game creatures that could provide the deck with some hindrance (Delver, Mom, Hierarch).

Vacrix

04-11-2012, 02:21 PM

Kich867

04-11-2012, 03:02 PM

It could be a ploy to get people to buy packs whilst getting into a relatively cheap deck in an eternal format. Who knows..

All I know is god DAYUM. The question is how do you treat this 'creature' because half the time its going to be a reach spell when you want a creature, and a creature when you want a reach spell. Luckily, this deck plays Daze and Brainstorm so we draw it when we want it more so than Mono-red.

I know that I mentioned Proclamation of Rebirth before and it was discarded as no better than, say, Sulfuric Vortex. But if you are going to play Sulfuric Vortex at 1RR you really might want to give this another look given Vexing Devil. Like... imagine a graveyard of Goblin Guide, Vexing Devil, Vexing Devil. 2W for 2/2, x2 4/3... What do you guys think?

There is no circumstance in this deck where either side of him would be undesired. If he's a burn, sweet--turn 3 win. If he's a creature, sweet, they probably kept a removal heavy hand and are going to get blown out anyways because they can't put a clock on you.

If I dropped this guy on turn 2 or 3 I wouldn't care what happened. If they eat the damage and I drop another one, what do they do? Eat another 4 damage? I'll gladly pay 2 for 8. I'll also gladly pay 2 for 2 4/3's and start beating.

It's kind of like flipping a coin and telling someone to call it in the air, but if they say heads you punch them in the face. And if they say tails you punch them in the face.

Vacrix

04-11-2012, 04:38 PM

It's kind of like flipping a coin and telling someone to call it in the air, but if they say heads you punch them in the face. And if they say tails you punch them in the face.
Lol I need to get me a coin like this. However I would change it to heads, punch them in the face, tails kick them in the ass. ;D

Yeah I think we can count on running 4 of these bad boys. What about Proc though against decks that play sweepers? If they get you for say, 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 this card ensures that you get there, especially if they play spot removal over time rather than an opening 7 thats chalk full of it. With multiple cantrips this isn't unlikely. Then again, I wonder if Proc would ever be better than just more reach spells.

Poron

04-11-2012, 07:02 PM

I can't see what's so strong about Goblin Guide.. against control yes, 4x but against aggro.. always side out

Hanni

04-11-2012, 07:21 PM

The reason I wouldn't run Proclamation is for the fact that it's 3cc. The only reason I'd consider Sulfuric Vortex is because it prevents lifegain while doing 2 damage a turn, which is essentially an anti-hate card that simultaneously advances my gameplan. Enchantments are also harder to deal with than creatures.

This deck doesn't fear sweepers. First of all, sweepers are fairly slow, and second of all, this deck has more than enough reach to just not care.

I'd much rather run more effecient burn spells.

---

In my current build, before these new cards were spoiled, I was very satisfied with my configuration and numbers. I playtested the deck for hours and hours each week, and logged a good hundred+ games. However, with these new spoiled cards, I'm going to have to make some changes. Kinda sucks, because I felt like my maindeck was 100% perfect, but it's also kinda awesome, because these new cards are pretty powerful.

I'm thinking Vexing Devil should 4-of. It's either R for 4 damage, which is way above the power level for a burn spell, or it's a 4/3 for R, which is way above the power level for a creature. Regardless that the opponent can choose the best option (worst for us), it doesn't change the power level of the card. If the opponent let's it live because they think their StP will answer it, we either Daze the StP, or drop double Delver and overload their removal. If they take 4... well, that makes it the best burn spell in the deck.

Thunderous Wrath is also rediculously powerful. We don't want it in our opening hand, so running less than 4 makes the most sense. We do run Brainstorm, but we cannot depend on drawing/resolving one to fix a bad draw. We also don't want to topdeck one early, when we would rather be investing mana playing creatures. For this reason, I'm thinking a 2-of makes the most sense. We definitely want a R for 5 damage spell... R for 5 damage is just so far above the power level of Legacy that it's not even funny. However, this deck also depends on consistency and not running out of gas, where having Wrath's dead in hand is really bad. I think 2 is going to be the correct number, but if not, it will still be my starting point for testing.

What do I cut to fit 4 Vexing Devil and 2 Thunderous Wrath, though?

I can easily see cutting 2 Phantasmal Bears and 2 Grim Lavamancer's for 4 Vexing Devil. Grim Lavamancer is nice utility, and a solid topdeck against big blockers, but it puts weak pressure on the opponent early game. Phantasmal Bear puts solid pressure on opponent's early, but sucks a big fat one as a topdeck later on because it cannot even swing past a Mishra's Factory.

Fitting Thunderous Wrath, on the other hand, may prove a bit difficult.

In my current configuration, I've hammered down that 3 Magma Jet and 3 Fireblast are the right numbers. However, for testing purposes, I'm going to trim both down to 2.

Magma Jet offers excellent filter, increases the consistency of Delver flips and landfall triggers, and makes sure I'm drawing the right business for the situation. I'm hoping that 4/2 Brainstorm/Jet will be sufficient for those purposes.

Fireblast increases my turn 3 goldfishes by a large margin, and has won me so many games that I would have lost without it that it's not even funny. However, drawing 2 is still pretty bad for consistency, and I'm hoping that the deck needs less finishing power in Fireblast with the additional damage output with the new cards. Wrath in particular, is a finisher like Fireblast, and although it isn't free, R for 5 damage can and will close games out.

Once the spoilers are available for MWS (so that I can playtest with the new cards), this is the list I will be running:

R/U/w Blue Sligh

Lands (18)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Tundra
1 Mountain

Creatures (16)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Steppe Lynx

Spells (26)
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
2 Thunderous Wrath
2 Fireblast

Sideboard (15)
4 Spell Pierce
2 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Shattering Spree
2 Disenchant
3 Tormod's Crypt

Brushwagg

04-11-2012, 09:07 PM

Kich867

04-11-2012, 09:21 PM

I disagree with the Grim being totally cut. It's too good to not play for this deck. The problem is there is just way too much good stuff being crammed in. A really good problem to have but one none the less. Can we just not run land??? [/sarcasm]

Here's what I'm probably going to end up playing.

4x Guide
4x Lynx
4x Delver
3x Grim
4x Devil

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
3x Magma Jet
2x Thunderous Wrath
2x Fire Blast
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze

18 land

Rift Bolt gets the axe.

I would be very weary of running Delver in your list. Running 19 creatures and 18 lands leaves 37 cards as non-instant/sorcery cards, more than half your deck. You want something like 28-30 instants/sorceries in order to reliably flip delvers, you currently run 23.

Dropping a creature would probably be a good idea.

Basara

04-11-2012, 09:25 PM

what about replacing magma jet with ponder??? , ponder will help the deck a lot with delver and miracle cards... also your fire blast number is correct , sometimes you will not have 2 mountains because of wasteland and stifle.. so yes you build looks amazing..

Kich867

04-11-2012, 09:28 PM

Hanni

04-11-2012, 10:58 PM

Grim Lavamancer is a creature that is horrible early, and great in the midgame. Early game, you don't want to be investing mana into him, and a 1/1 doesn't apply much pressure. By the midgame, being able to do 2 targetable damage is fantastic. He's really good against SFM, which makes him valuable in that matchup if for no other reason.

The reason I'm cutting him for playtesting purposes, is because I want to see what mileage I can get out of Devil (and to a lesser extent, Wrath). If the deck becomes so fast and aggressive that it no longer needs a slow midgame card like Lavamancer, then there you go. If not, I could cut 2 Devils. I wouldn't run more than 2 Lavamancers though. Even against removal, Lavamancer is not a creature you really want to see multiples of.

I also think 16 creatures is really the max that Sligh wants to play. You want to maintain the burn density as much as possible.

Kich, I disagree with the 28-30 assessment. I run 26 just fine.

what about replacing magma jet with ponder??? , ponder will help the deck a lot with delver and miracle cards... also your fire blast number is correct , sometimes you will not have 2 mountains because of wasteland and stifle.. so yes you build looks amazing..

Not sure why Ponder would be any better at flipping Delvers. You can't Ponder to setup Delver until turn 2 for a turn 3 flip. You can cast Magma Jet during your upkeep on turn 3, so it's not really any different. There's nothing wrong with running Ponder instead, and that topic has been discussed at length throughout this thread. I personally prefer Magma Jet.

Also, using Magma Jet or Ponder to setup Miracle cards is pointless. If you topdeck it, you're casting it. If it's in your hand, the only fixer is Brainstorm. Whether you filter the top or not doesn't change anything. Digging for a Wrath, or knowing that it's coming so you can adjust you're line of play accordingly is nice, don't get me wrong... but I do not understand why people keep saying that Ponder/Jet/etc make Miracle cards better/stronger when they don't.

Also not sure why Ponder is any better with Devil than it was without Devil, and how it's any better than Jet with Devil than it was without Devil. Care to explain?

Vacrix

04-12-2012, 02:13 AM

I've already done some testing independent of Thunderous Wrath and Vexing Devil makes the deck fast as shit. I played maybe 20 games all assuming that the Devil would only deal 4 damage in the early game and be played as a creature if it would put the opponent within Bolt + Blast range. The deck won turn 4 >= X every game, even hands with Daze and Brainstorm.

I have not yet tested Thunderous Wrath though. I honestly don't like the card. Its too clunky for me. I wouldn't want a hand that has Vexing Devil, Thunderous Wrath, Daze, and Fireblast. Its just too many conditional cards to play in one deck. I even prefer playing 2 Fireblast. Lava Spike has been treating me well.

Poron

04-12-2012, 06:35 AM

What about Sensei's Top and abusing of the new miracle engine? they're both bombs and they're UR...

I mean Temporal Mastery http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129834&d=1333944194

and the already well known Wrath

Hanni

04-12-2012, 07:18 AM

Top? In Sligh? Come on man.

And wtf is up with this hive mind/mob mentality thinking that cards like Ponder and SDT make Miracle cards better. Only Brainstorm (well... Scroll Rack and Jace, too) make Miracle cards better.

@Vacrix

You may be right about Wrath, but I still want to test it first.

Qweerios

04-12-2012, 09:39 AM

I don't know about playing a 3 color deck with 18 lands (12 fetches). It sounds like a lot of mulligans, very detrimental wastelands, game-breaking stifles, tough PoPs, and overall a lot of sad thoughts that could be avoided. With the new cards being spoiled, I don't see the point to splash white for all the optimal sligh 1-drops in legacy anymore. The blue and red card pool appears to be just as fast, powerful, and even more stable than the tricolored one.

Also, nobody adressed the point I made about Smash to Smithereens > Shattering Spree yet.

Anusien

04-12-2012, 11:14 AM

I like how you added the red miracle as a 2 of, but are completely omitting the blue miracle. This is one of the decks in the format best suited to Temporal Mastery.

Koby

04-12-2012, 11:41 AM

Kich867

04-12-2012, 11:43 AM

I like how you added the red miracle as a 2 of, but are completely omitting the blue miracle. This is one of the decks in the format best suited to Temporal Mastery.

I don't really see how. It's mana intensive to the point where it becomes obstructive to the goal of the deck. This is aiming for the third turn win and falling back on a fourth turn win.

When would you want to actually set a miracle up? Maybe to get another attack phase, but you're not always in that position..

If you have a delver out, and you miracle to get another attack phase, the miracle drawn could have been a burn and the extra swing from delver is the same as a lightning bolt. So you're paying 1U for another bolt.

The deck doesn't really need another turn and the turn you'd be using it: turn 3, is when you're aiming to kill them. I would rather draw a card that ends the game, than draw a card that uses almost all of my mana to give me another turn to maybe end the game.

Kich867

04-12-2012, 11:44 AM

Ponder is not to setup Miracle cards; it's there to fix your draw step. It's there to flip Delver late game. It's there to make sure you don't draw Land, Land, Delver in the mid game. It's cheaper than Magma Jet, which is the biggest benefit for a deck that runs 18 lands.

It also plays nicely with Vexing Devil. Turn 1 Delver, turn 2 Ponder, Devil, is a strong play. I always appreciated the dig to set up turn 3-4 power plays.

It gives you more options earlier while still letting you play threats.

Anusien

04-12-2012, 11:57 AM

I don't really see how. It's mana intensive to the point where it becomes obstructive to the goal of the deck. This is aiming for the third turn win and falling back on a fourth turn win.

When would you want to actually set a miracle up? Maybe to get another attack phase, but you're not always in that position..

If you have a delver out, and you miracle to get another attack phase, the miracle drawn could have been a burn and the extra swing from delver is the same as a lightning bolt. So you're paying 1U for another bolt.

The deck doesn't really need another turn and the turn you'd be using it: turn 3, is when you're aiming to kill them. I would rather draw a card that ends the game, than draw a card that uses almost all of my mana to give me another turn to maybe end the game.
You realize Temporal Mastery draws a card right? Casting Temporal Mastery on turn 3 is literally ALL UPSIDE. You get a free attack step. You draw another card which is just as likely (actually slightly more likely because the library is -1 card that isn't that burn spell) to draw the lethal burn spell.

Casting Temporal Mastery on turn 3 turns those turn 4 wins into turn 3 wins.

Man, it is hilarious watching people argue "Don't play Time Walk, it's the same as Lightning Bolt."

Edit: However good Vexing Devils ends up being, I don't think you want to straight-up cut 3-4 creatures for the 4 of them. Hands with a turn 1 creature are so much stronger than the ones that aren't. If we assume on turn 1 they're normally just going to be going to the dome, they don't really count as full creatures in that regard.

Kich867

04-12-2012, 12:16 PM

You realize Temporal Mastery draws a card right? Casting Temporal Mastery on turn 3 is literally ALL UPSIDE. You get a free attack step. You draw another card which is just as likely (actually slightly more likely because the library is -1 card that isn't that burn spell) to draw the lethal burn spell.

Casting Temporal Mastery on turn 3 turns those turn 4 wins into turn 3 wins.

Man, it is hilarious watching people argue "Don't play Time Walk, it's the same as Lightning Bolt."

And you're dropping what. Burns? Brainstorm? Creatures? Daze? Where is this going in? Where is the other miracle going in? What turn are you setting this up? Is the turn dedicated to setting this up worth it for losing the next turn?

This deck lives and dies on card quality. Not setting up for cool tricks and executing them in the hope that the extra turn draws you something good / your creatures aren't dead / they don't counter the time walk.

What do you do with this in your opener? The deck doesn't run force and you're only burning brainstorms to dig for gas. Do you brainstorm turn 2 and set this up? What if you don't hit your third land drop, or it gets countered, or they just sword your creature on the attack phase?

Brainstorming turn 2 sucks. Not hitting your third land drop means you spent literally your draw and turn, to get an extra turn, to draw another card. If it gets countered, you spent your turn doing nothing. If you play it and swing and they kill your creature, more than half the creatures in the deck don't have haste, and going through all of this setup to draw another card that you would have drawn anyways had you not drawn temporal mastery was an enormous waste of time.

Temporal Mastery in this deck isn't that impressive because it doesn't run enough lands, it doesn't have mid-game bombs, it doesn't run enough cards to reliably set it up, it's dead without a brainstorm, and RUW Sligh can't afford the time invested to set it up. It's not something you can just slide into the deck and everything flows just like it used to, it causes bumps in an otherwise completely streamlined deck.

A list of things I would rather do on turn 3:
Win
Brainstorm, then win.

A list of decks I would run the new timewalk in:
MUC
UW Stoneblade
Bant Control/Aggro
Maybe RUG?

A lot of things have to be going right for you to play this card early and get use out of it. The turn you play it has to be meaningful and useful, to make the turn after it equally meaningful and useful.

Edit: However good Vexing Devils ends up being, I don't think you want to straight-up cut 3-4 creatures for the 4 of them. Hands with a turn 1 creature are so much stronger than the ones that aren't. If we assume on turn 1 they're normally just going to be going to the dome, they don't really count as full creatures in that regard.

Wouldn't that just be sick though? I'd be stoked if someone took 4 to the dome. The deck doesn't actually need creatures to win, them eating that would be ideal too. Turn 2 I could just drop a <creature> / <creature> or <burn> / <creature> or <burn> / <burn> and everything would be awesome still. You don't rely on Goblin Guide or Steppe Lynx doing anymore than 4 damage, so this would be fantastic if they just took it. It would be more fantastic if they didn't and I got two swings in, but it's 4 damage on turn one, and that's awesome.

-- To clarify, I would run Thunderous Wrath because it's usefulness is directly related to what the deck wants to do, it does enough damage to legitimately get top-decked and win you the game while the extra turn might not and I'm not exactly alright with might not. It's application is definite and it's the strongest burn spell ever printed for it's casting cost when you set it up. It also plays nicely with turn 3-4 wins because it still allows you to play other things reliably those turns. Brainstorming EOT (which, as I mentioned, kind of sucks to do, but if you have thunderous wrath in your hand you know that your turn 3 is going to be a serious power play) can set up as much as 12 damage on turn 3 just from burns if you're only on two mana. Comparing it to the time walk, you can't make that claim, you might not have a creature still alive when it goes off to take advantage of multiple attack phases, it itself isn't a burn so you are still relying on the burns in your hand (which you could have played the turn prior and drawn another burn instead of the time walk anyways) which will almost certainly not be 8-12 damage for 2 mana.

Anusien

04-12-2012, 12:20 PM

Are you actually saying you wouldn't run Time Walk because it would have to replace a creature or a burn spell, and you can't afford to cut them?

kicks_422

04-12-2012, 12:27 PM

Testing with Vexing Devil has made me realize that it's actually a better Turn 2 drop than a Turn 1 drop if you have any other creatures in hand. Opponents will most likely take 4 on Turn 1 when you play Devil, which goes against the whole point of playing creatures in Sligh for damage that gets in every turn.

Kich867

04-12-2012, 12:35 PM

Are you actually saying you wouldn't run Time Walk because it would have to replace a creature or a burn spell, and you can't afford to cut them?

No, time walk would be sweet in this deck. Temporal Mastery wouldn't. That should be obvious :laugh:. We're not actually going to go there right?

baghdadbob

04-12-2012, 12:51 PM

TM seems ok as a misers 1 of but is it really worth dedicating more then one spot? I doubt it. :rolleyes:

Brushwagg

04-12-2012, 11:18 PM

Just took this deck for spin at the local event 4 rounds cut to top 4. Ended up going 3-1-1 altogether. I beat B/W tokens/lifegain thing, G/W Maverick, U/R Sneak and Show. Lost to Painter in top 4, if I had a Tundra in the deck I probably won game 3.

I'm going to have to start mixing in the new cards to see what kind of list shakes out. I have to agree that Temporal Mastery doesn't belong anywhere in this at all.

Vacrix

04-12-2012, 11:29 PM

Congrats! Why was the Tundra relevant? Did you have something like Turn 1 Steppe Lynx and a Brainstorm? I'd love to read a report. Beating Sneakshow is legit. I'm guessing Spell Pierces were clutch in game 2/3. Thats usually how I've been beating them on Cockatrice. What list did you play? Stock SB?

If you want to try something new, I'd recommend Unstable Mutation. Its been pretty good for me. Often it produces 3 damage for U. Occasionally they'll have a removal spell in response to 2 for 1 you, but sometimes you have Daze. Its been alright for me in testing. Sometimes it produces 5 or 6 damage for U, which is really fucking tight.

Testing with Vexing Devil has made me realize that it's actually a better Turn 2 drop than a Turn 1 drop if you have any other creatures in hand. Opponents will most likely take 4 on Turn 1 when you play Devil, which goes against the whole point of playing creatures in Sligh for damage that gets in every turn.
Can you give an example? If you drop a different creature on turn 1 I don't see a reason why they would react any differently. 2 creatures with this deck is a really, really fast clock taking Burn into account.

Brushwagg

04-13-2012, 11:38 AM

Congrats! Why was the Tundra relevant?

Well I kept a hand I probably should have sent back. It was Plateau, GG, Dellver, Daze x2 , Spell Peirce x2. I then draw Fireblast followed by Plateau number 2. Mean while Painter goes Grindstone and then followed by Painter but can activate with and empty hand. I'm forced to Fireblast the Painter or lose next turn. So I sac both lands kill the Painter, keep chipping away with GG. I finally draw a fetch get a Volcanic drop Delver. Some where along the lines he dropped Trinket Mage for a blocker I drop a second Delver, one get Pyroblasted after a flip. I draw a Brainstorm use it see Steppe Lynx with no other white source in the deck so I can't cast it to speed my clock up. His deck finally stops shitting on itself to get a Painter with a ton of land to end the game. Spellskite was a bitch in this match up.

Beating Sneakshow is legit

This was the match-up I didn't want to see. I brought in Spell Peirce but never saw it. Game one was close. He ended it at 1. He cast Show and Tell I tried to Daze it, he Dazed back. He drops Emrakul, I drop Steppe Lynx. Play the fetch in hand swing with Double guide and 4/5 kitty. He blocks the cat I Magma Jet see Rift Bolt and Daze. Ship both to the bottom since they don't win the game before I die. I needed a Chain or Lightning Bolt since I had a Volc in hand from Daze and could cast it.

Game 2:I put the boots to him again. This time he was a little mana light and Tomb and Boseiju helped me out. I had to much on the board before he could dig up Show and Tell.

Game 3:Again he was a little mana light Tomb and Boseiju helped me out again. This game ended with Price into Fire Blast.

What list did you play? Stock SB?

Pretty standard list, no Bears instead of Tundra 1x Island because my meta is full of Wasteland, but I think I might put the Tundra in.

SB: This is for my meta
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Leyline of Punishment
4x Spell Pierce
3x Price of Progress
3x Shattering Spree

@Spree: I know there is some debate here but I like the ability to hit multiple targets. SFM is played pretty heavy here and there are some affinty and artifact decks that show up.