M13 Spoiler Discussion

[Jacemindbreak]

New LoA seems to help Modern Merfolk than Legacy. That said, Legacy Merfolk still gets a very nice boost.

[KobeBryan]

New LoA seems to help Modern Merfolk than Legacy. That said, Legacy Merfolk still gets a very nice boost.

What do you mean it helps modern more than legacy.

This card helps both decks just as much.

[xfxf]

Had a crazy thought. Maybe this new Merfolk lord is a thoughtful maneuver by the Wizards to help Legacy (hold on, I'm telling why). Merfolk, with its basic Islands, Islandwalking creatures, Chalice builds, has enough tools to be problematic for RUG. It's a cheap enough deck so if it comes back in force it can potentially limit RUG. Meanwhile it has enough tools to battle Griselband decks and it still loses to everyone's favorite blue hoser Maverick. At the same time it's a non-Brainstorm blue tribal-aggro deck which could ease the Brainstorm scaremongers, people who have been missing their tribal-Vial aggro decks etc. It could be a cool breeze for the format to have its peace for a while.

Its only fault is playing with Islands.

[Teknique]

Does anyone else think the new cycle of dual-land creatures seems pretty sweet?

I really want to jam this one in legacy somehow
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132760&d=1340769727

[Aggro_zombies]

Does anyone else think the new cycle of dual-land creatures seems pretty sweet?

I really want to jam this one in legacy somehow
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132760&d=1340769727
A 3/2 flying, maybe-lifelink is way below the curve for this format.

EDIT: I should add "for three."

[xfxf]

Can you guys also type the cards you are referring to?

[rxavage]

They're referring to arctic aven. It's a 2/1 flyer for 2U, gets +1/+1 if you control a plains, W: gains lifelink til eot.



Whats with all this excitement over bad cards, in the context of legacy?

[(nameless one)]

They're referring to arctic aven. It's a 2/1 flyer for 2U, gets +1/+1 if you control a plains, W: gains lifelink til eot.



Whats with all this excitement over bad cards, in the context of legacy?

Because the price of good cards is too damn high.

Though Akroma's Memorial is getting a reprint. Help save EDH!

[ShiftyKapree]

I can't believe that new merfolk lord is getting all this talk with the merfolk players. Honestly merfolk has always been beatable when I played Bant CBT I ran two lawlns and 8 sword affects. I doubt it can stand up against Rug even now bc of the 7 burn spells and 3 Spellsnares. Also there 4 Dazes and 4 FOW to there what 8 counters if there lucky. I hope it brings merfolk back bc its basically a bye for me and most players

[nedleeds]

I'd ditch Reejerey ... being able to just always leave vial on 2 has its merits.

[ReAnimator]

There's also Tidal Warrior which could also manascrew your opponent and enable Islandwalk.

8 LoAs should make it better now.

Tidal Warrior actually looks pretty sweet cause it can help you with your own god awful manabase. Anyone else remember when Tidal Warrior got run in Merfolk decks like 14 years ago?

[Aggro_zombies]

Though Akroma's Memorial is getting a reprint. Help save EDH!
I did not even realize that Memorial was that expensive. I should have put the pile of Memorials I have in my trade binder sooner. Oh well.

[alderon666]

Tidal Warrior actually looks pretty sweet cause it can help you with your own god awful manabase. Anyone else remember when Tidal Warrior got run in Merfolk decks like 14 years ago?

I also allows you to turn your opponents Maze of Ith into an Island and then attacking for 12 Islandwalking fish damage past their Knights, Mothers, Rangers, Oozes, etc. That has to be the best feeling ever!

LOL

[Tacosnape]

Man. I want War Falcon to be good, even though I know it's not. I couldn't help think about how easy it would be to keep a Knight or Soldier on the board. Then I just question whether a 2/1 flyer for :w: is even good.

[Moondancerbb]

Trade Outpost 4
Artifact Rare
1 tap Discard a card: You gain 4 life.
1 tap Pay 1 life: Put a 0/1 white goat token into play under your control.
1 tap Sacrifice a creature: Return target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand.
1 tap Sacrifice an artifact: Draw a card.

seems like it could be useful in a deck like mud

[rufus]

Does Faith's Reward have any potential for some kind of revisiting of Sunrise eggs?


3W
Instant
Return to the battlefield all permanent cards in your graveyard that were put there from the battlefield this turn.

[Aggro_zombies]

Man. I want War Falcon to be good, even though I know it's not. I couldn't help think about how easy it would be to keep a Knight or Soldier on the board. Then I just question whether a 2/1 flyer for :w: is even good.
It blocks Delver!

...but yeah, a 2/1 flying for one kind of pales in comparison to a 3/2 flying for one, especially when one's drawback is much easier to satisfy than the other's.

[Gheizen64]

Man. I want War Falcon to be good, even though I know it's not. I couldn't help think about how easy it would be to keep a Knight or Soldier on the board. Then I just question whether a 2/1 flyer for :w: is even good.

Just think of it as an enchant soldier that give +2+1 and flying. Because that's what it is. Rancor is miles better and see little to no play sadly. I wanted a new good non blue weenie too :(

[Aggro_zombies]

Just think of it as an enchant soldier that give +2+1 and flying. Because that's what it is. Rancor is miles better and see little to no play sadly. I wanted a new good non blue weenie too :(
Thalia is a soldier, for what it's worth.

[Lord Seth]

Warhawk and Cloudreach Cavalry might be a fun combo in casual.

[Nihil Credo]

Trade Outpost 4
Artifact Rare
1 tap Discard a card: You gain 4 life.
1 tap Pay 1 life: Put a 0/1 white goat token into play under your control.
1 tap Sacrifice a creature: Return target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand.
1 tap Sacrifice an artifact: Draw a card.

seems like it could be useful in a deck like mudMUD is probably too aggressive to bother with it, but this is precisely the sort of card that gives Stax a giant raging boner. Free creatures to sac to upkeep effects or to chump blocks, lifegain, AND card advantage? Synergy with Tangle Wire / Smokestack and Ensnaring Bridge? Hell yeah.

In all the years it spent as Tier 2 this was exactly the sort of card it desperately needed. Nowadays, it might push it back from unplayable into Tier 2.

[Humphrey]

MUD is probably too aggressive to bother with it, but this is precisely the sort of card that gives Stax a giant raging boner. Free creatures to sac to upkeep effects or to chump blocks, lifegain, AND card advantage? Synergy with Tangle Wire / Smokestack and Ensnaring Bridge? Hell yeah.

In all the years it spent as Tier 2 this was exactly the sort of card it desperately needed. Nowadays, it might push it back from unplayable into Tier 2.

"Seems good in Staxx"
Havent heared that joke in a long time :tongue:

[nedleeds]

Man. I want War Falcon to be good, even though I know it's not. I couldn't help think about how easy it would be to keep a Knight or Soldier on the board. Then I just question whether a 2/1 flyer for :w: is even good.

I wish he was a 3/0 Vigilance for W.

[rxavage]

I wish he was a 3/0 Vigilance for W.

So that it dies as soon as it hits the battlefield?

[rufus]

Now that it's spoiled, it looks like M13 doesn't offer much for legacy at all.

[Tammit67]

Now that it's spoiled, it looks like M13 doesn't offer much for legacy at all.

Considering how many recent cards are seeing exorbitant amounts of play, I am ok with this

[Lemnear]

Now that it's spoiled, it looks like M13 doesn't offer much for legacy at all.

249 cards and all mentionable for Legacy is another Lord of Atlantis. Moreover the rest are a bunch of bad cards in high rarities like Battle of Wits. Did i miss something?

Looks like the worst core set printed in new frame.

[testing32]

Now that it's spoiled, it looks like M13 doesn't offer much for legacy at all.

I'm looking forward to the the new lord having a large impact.


Considering how many recent cards are seeing exorbitant amounts of play, I am ok with this

Agreed

[Tacosnape]

Four other cards that might have more of an impact than you think, aside from the Merfolk Lord:

1. Ajani, Caller of the Pride. If I'm Maverick, I'm loving the ability to play a planeswalker that works under Gaddock Teeg and gives my Knights flying and double strike. I see this earning two spots maindeck in Maverick lists. Maybe three if it catches on. And I wouldn't be surprised if other decks, particularly those packing Geist of Saint Traft, pick it up as well.

2. Omniscience. Remains to be seen how successful it'll be, but it'll get played in S&T for awhile.

3. Chronomaton. Very weird. Huge inevitability for a 1-colorless drop, but finding the deck for him's questionable. Probably too slow, but keep an eye on him.

4. Cathedral of War. Somewhere, some deck is going to love this card. Not sure what deck or where, but something is. Not a huge impact card though.

[Aggro_zombies]

1. Ajani, Caller of the Pride. If I'm Maverick, I'm loving the ability to play a planeswalker that works under Gaddock Teeg and gives my Knights flying and double strike. I see this earning two spots maindeck in Maverick lists. Maybe three if it catches on. And I wouldn't be surprised if other decks, particularly those packing Geist of Saint Traft, pick it up as well.
I'm still not convinced he stacks up favorably to Elspeth. In what matchups do you need both a planeswalker and Gaddock Teeg? Teeg stops Jace (if they run it), Force, and hardcast Batterskull out of Stoneblade, but pretty much nothing else. Teeg stops Force and nothing else out of RUG. He stops GSZ and Elspeth in the mirror, but I feel like you'd be better off with Elspeth than Ajani here anyway because of the repeatable +3/+3 and flying (and indestructibility just ends the game). Against control, I guess Teeg stops Moat, Terminus, etc...but Elspeth makes tokens (invaluable after sweepers) and the +3/+3 ends the game in a hurry no matter what creature gets the bonus.

I dunno. "Works under Teeg" seems like not enough upside to make up for "does nothing unless you're ahead" and "is a complete joke vs. targeted removal."

[Tacosnape]

I dunno. "Works under Teeg" seems like not enough upside to make up for "does nothing unless you're ahead" and "is a complete joke vs. targeted removal."

First off, Teeg stops a ton of other things. In addition to what you mentioned, it shuts off Submerge, Sneak Attack, Ad Nauseam, Terminus and Entreat, Elspeth/Garruk/Gideon/Zenith in mirrors, and even the ever annoying Pyrokinesis against Goblins.

As for what match do you want both Teeg and a Planeswalker? Easy. Every match. Because Ajani makes all your guys a clock.

All lifeloss aside, your hatebears are ten turn clocks. This is often boosted a little by Exalted triggers and your opponent hurting himself, but still. If you get that Teeg out turn two, a turn three Ajani will make him hit for 3, 4, 8, and 8. Which ups that clock by several turns. Elspeth isn't an option here.

More commonly, though, let's look at Ajani versus Elspeth with Thalia. Regardless of whether you got that Thalia out on turn two with a third mana out, Ajani's still coming out a turn faster than Elspeth under a Thalia, so we'll calculate how long it takes the Thalia to get there with each:

Four turns of swinging with Thalia if you drop Ajani one turn after: 3, 4, 8, 8
Four turns of swinging with Thalia if you drop Elspeth two turns after: 2, 5, 5, 5

Four turns of swinging with Thalia if you drop Ajani two turns after: 2, 3, 4, 8
Four turns of swinging with Thalia if you drop Elspeth two turns after: 2, 2, 5, 5

I give a narrow edge to Ajani here. There are other factors to be considered, obviously: Elspeth's better if they're managing to damage your planeswalker. Sometimes your mana will cap out at one short of playing the Elspeth whereas you could cast the Ajani. Etc.

Elspeth's token making can be relevant. No argument. Especially after Terminus or something devastating. But for one mana less, the ability to make the guys I have bigger?

Also, I don't generally care about targeted removal on my guys. I play 4 Mother of Runes and, unlike the rest of the world, a Sylvan Safekeeper. I don't have games where I don't have -some- guy on the board to pump with Ajani. It just doesn't happen.

As for the argument that indestructibility just ends the game, in a lot of matchups, so does your life total worth of cats. So does sometimes one swing with a flying double strike Knight of the Reliquary, especially when you have a Sylvan Safekeeper out.

[Gheizen64]

It's strange that only blue got a lord, and others color none. Tundra wolves and Arc lightning didn't need a new name, also a wolf is way cooler than a dog.


Ah and seems like even demolish is too good now. Sigh.

It's also funny to note that the color with the most 1-drop is blue with 3 while all other colors have 2. In general it looks like the average cmc has gone up, planar cleansing instead of DoJ, clone instead of phantasmal image, Murder instead of doom blade, Shimian specter instead of Liliana's Specter etc...

[Aggro_zombies]

It's strange that only blue got a lord, and others color none.
Captain of the Watch
Elvish Archdruid
Vampire Nocturnus
Krenko, Mob Boss

Though I guess that last one is kind of stretching it.

[Einherjer]

To be honest, I am fine with the format getting a little bit of time to adjust to the Griselmator-madness.

Greetings

[nedleeds]

So that it dies as soon as it hits the battlefield?

Yeah they should really get around to printing some static pump effects for White ....

[Gheizen64]

Captain of the Watch
Elvish Archdruid
Vampire Nocturnus
Krenko, Mob Boss

Though I guess that last one is kind of stretching it.

I missed archdruid, but i wouldn't consider the other as the classic "lords"

[Tacosnape]

Red did get the shaft on Lords. Krenko's part of the legend cycle that's replacing the titans (Krenko, Odric, Yeva, Nefarox, and Talrand). Some kind of a Goblin Lord seemed like it would have fit, and I wonder why it didn't happen.

[(nameless one)]

MUD is probably too aggressive to bother with it, but this is precisely the sort of card that gives Stax a giant raging boner. Free creatures to sac to upkeep effects or to chump blocks, lifegain, AND card advantage? Synergy with Tangle Wire / Smokestack and Ensnaring Bridge? Hell yeah.

In all the years it spent as Tier 2 this was exactly the sort of card it desperately needed. Nowadays, it might push it back from unplayable into Tier 2.

There are MUD variants that are midrange (the Chalice + 3Sphere variants). The problem with that variant is consistency and with the utility that card provides, it might help MUD fix it's consistency issues. Also, Cavern of Souls can get Welders through a Chalice at one. The discard Trading Post provides can help fuel Welder (not to mention the life gained from that).

But we'll see how that goes.

As for the rest of the set, I wish they would print more land destruction. Personally, I'm hoping we'd see a Goblin Settler reprint.

[Amon Amarth]

Red did get the shaft on Lords. Krenko's part of the legend cycle that's replacing the titans (Krenko, Odric, Yeva, Nefarox, and Talrand). Some kind of a Goblin Lord seemed like it would have fit, and I wonder why it didn't happen.

That was really weird. Why is the best lord blue? Did I miss the memo?

[Gheizen64]

There are MUD variants that are midrange (the Chalice + 3Sphere variants). The problem with that variant is consistency and with the utility that card provides, it might help MUD fix it's consistency issues. Also, Cavern of Souls can get Welders through a Chalice at one. The discard Trading Post provides can help fuel Welder (not to mention the life gained from that).

But we'll see how that goes.

As for the rest of the set, I wish they would print more land destruction. Personally, I'm hoping we'd see a Goblin Settler reprint.

The card is way too slow 5 mana to get the first cute effect. You need to activate this a lot of times before it's worth it.
Well, unless you spawn a goat token. Then it's amazing.

[Aggro_zombies]

There are MUD variants that are midrange (the Chalice + 3Sphere variants). The problem with that variant is consistency and with the utility that card provides, it might help MUD fix it's consistency issues. Also, Cavern of Souls can get Welders through a Chalice at one. The discard Trading Post provides can help fuel Welder (not to mention the life gained from that).

But we'll see how that goes.

As for the rest of the set, I wish they would print more land destruction. Personally, I'm hoping we'd see a Goblin Settler reprint.
This set's dedicated land destruction card is a strictly-worse version of Demolish, so somehow I don't think Goblin Settler is getting reprinted anytime soon.

[Gheizen64]

That was really weird. Why is the best lord blue? Did I miss the memo?

I think this has become some sort of internal joke at R&D. Like people winking at each others, passing memos under the table, all while red and black mages aren't looking :frown:

[Aggro_zombies]

I think this has become some sort of internal joke at R&D. Like people winking at each others, passing memos under the table, all while red and black mages aren't looking :frown:
MaRo keeps arguing on his Tubmlr that this is actually the weakest lord in the set, presumably because there aren't any merfolk on Ravnica and weren't any on Innistrad, so he has very little tribal support in Standard. MaRo also hinted that historically, merfolk have been a rather weak tribe (and a quick Gatherer search confirms that most merfolk suck).

...which once again proves the R&D thinks very little about other formats, since vampires in Standard aren't a deck, the Soldier lord costs infinite for Constructed, and the Elf lord already existed. The merfolk lord is far and away the best lord taking into account Modern and Legacy.

[DragoFireheart]

I think we need more people to try and break Omniscience.

Despite it costing 10 I feel like it has some broken potential. Has anyone had any success with it in some Storm/High Tide/SnT deck?

[(nameless one)]

I think we need more people to try and break Omniscience.

Despite it costing 10 I feel like it has some broken potential. Has anyone had any success with it in some Storm/High Tide/SnT deck?

Omniscience into Burning Wish into Living Wish into Sparkcaster then win ala Aluren? Now thats winning with style!

[rufus]

I think we need more people to try and break Omniscience.

Despite it costing 10 I feel like it has some broken potential. Has anyone had any success with it in some Storm/High Tide/SnT deck?

IMO, at that CC, it needs to be able to win the game on its own.

P.S. I'd rather break Spelltwine

[Aggro_zombies]

Omniscience into Burning Wish into Living Wish into Sparkcaster then win ala Aluren? Now thats winning with style!
Wait, Sparkcaster costs four. What am I missing here?

Also, Omniscience is bad.

[Octopusman]

Wait, Sparkcaster costs four. What am I missing here?

Also, Omniscience is bad.

Isn't Sparkcaster free with Omniscience?

Yes, Yes it is. You don't need Aluren.

[Aggro_zombies]

Isn't Sparkcaster free with Omniscience?

Yes, Yes it is. You don't need Aluren.
Oh, right. Forgot about the Omniscience.

[Lemnear]

Four other cards that might have more of an impact than you think, aside from the Merfolk Lord:

1. Ajani, Caller of the Pride. If I'm Maverick, I'm loving the ability to play a planeswalker that works under Gaddock Teeg and gives my Knights flying and double strike. I see this earning two spots maindeck in Maverick lists. Maybe three if it catches on. And I wouldn't be surprised if other decks, particularly those packing Geist of Saint Traft, pick it up as well.

2. Omniscience. Remains to be seen how successful it'll be, but it'll get played in S&T for awhile.

3. Chronomaton. Very weird. Huge inevitability for a 1-colorless drop, but finding the deck for him's questionable. Probably too slow, but keep an eye on him.

4. Cathedral of War. Somewhere, some deck is going to love this card. Not sure what deck or where, but something is. Not a huge impact card though.

1. I'm the one who started the Ajani Thread here with the question if this isn't a possible pw for Maverick for exactly the reasons you mentioned in the meanwhile. I still think that the "White berserk" is good for his mana cost if you control a creature big enough like a knight of the reliquary. I've tested this and did face situations there i draw ajani to give my Thalia +1/+1 counters while a drawn elspeth would have created a 5/4 Flying, firststriking threat.

- Ajani is boss if you drop him turn 2 or 3; Drawing Ajani post turn 4/4 mana availability sux unless you have a REAL big creature that might want the berserk (knights)
- Elspeth don't work with teeg unlike Ajani. Was never a Factor in testing. Beatz was always enough (Knight or swarm)
- does Maverick really need +1/+1 Counters for 3 mana?
- isn't playing a threat instead of Ajani just better?

Spoiler: in the end i cut him for being too cute and too narrow for the slots in the deck


2. Omniscience is like an uncastable Dream Halls with the upside that you don't Need to pitch 4 cost. I don't think the reward makes up the cost. A Card that i have to show&tell onto the Table should Win the came instead of just being an enabler itself. If you compare this with griselbrand or the Flying Spaghetti monster this adds nothing. Considering Spring Tide or the like as a potential home: doubt. 10 mana is even there a critical amount and i can not remember that winning with tide was ever a problem with 10+ mana available. What should it replace? Untap effects you Need to ramp to 10+? protection? Spiral?

3. Def. too cute

4. Colorless and etb tapped are 2 downsides for "just" +1/+1 during attack imo. The slots for colorless Lands are Limited in Legacy and you'll likely get more damage out a mishra than this.

[Tacosnape]

- does Maverick really need +1/+1 Counters for 3 mana?
- isn't playing a threat instead of Ajani just better?


Yes and No, in that order. Maverick very often just swings with one guy while the others do stuff. Ajani facilitates this.

[RJM]

Ajani is a great closer, or parity breaker. But he's absolutely 100% useless in an unfavorable board state. To me, that means I don't think he'll make the cut when I'm looking at the those last few cards that need a space.

[Rizso]

It really depends on what you mean with an uneven boardstate. If you mean uneven as i have 0 creatures and my opponent have a swarm of creatures, not even allmighty jace or Elspeth would be handling that...

If you however mean opponent has larger a creatures or just 1 or 2 more guys then ajani will do much against that game state. Enlarging creature, puting pressure on my opponent for ultimate or multiple turns of flying / doublestrike forcing opponent to attack into the ajani. With it able to get of a couple of good blocks and / or attacks. Ajani does have quite large loyalty and will be able to take some beating of smaller creatuer. If not having creatures when playing ajani then the ajani is probly in the wrong deck.

[Awaclus]

It really depends on what you mean with an uneven boardstate. If you mean uneven as i have 0 creatures and my opponent have a swarm of creatures, not even allmighty jace or Elspeth would be handling that...

If you however mean opponent has larger a creatures or just 1 or 2 more guys then ajani will do much against that game state. Enlarging creature, puting pressure on my opponent for ultimate or multiple turns of flying / doublestrike forcing opponent to attack into the ajani. With it able to get of a couple of good blocks and / or attacks. Ajani does have quite large loyalty and will be able to take some beating of smaller creatuer. If not having creatures when playing ajani then the ajani is probly in the wrong deck.
Though, the pressure for ultimate is also easily removed if he attacks you.

[Rizso]

When it comes to planeswalkers its never as easy as just attacking them, especially not when it comes to walkers with as much loyality as elspeth and costs 3 mana.

[Arsenal]

If you have no creatures and your opponent has 1 creature in play, jace or elspeth would most certainly save you. That's why planewalkers that can defend themselves have traditionally been playable while ones that don't defend themselves sit in trade binders.

[Rizso]

Decks with ajani is gonna have more creatures and is in that way in less need of protection.

[Antonius]

i just thought that this was worth pointing out:

Captains Call
3W
Sorcery
Put three 1/1 White soldier tokens into play.

Talrand's Invokation
2UU
Sorcery
Put two 2/2 blue drake creature tokens with flying into play.

So, blue not only generates more power for the same CMC but gets flying too? This is silly.

[Amon Amarth]

i just thought that this was worth pointing out:

Captains Call
3W
Sorcery
Put three 1/1 White soldier tokens into play.

Talrand's Invokation
2UU
Sorcery
Put two 2/2 blue drake creature tokens with flying into play.

So, blue not only generates more power for the same CMC but gets flying too? This is silly.

Captain's Call is obviously better since it's a common. *snicker*

[Vacrix]

i just thought that this was worth pointing out:

Captains Call
3W
Sorcery
Put three 1/1 White soldier tokens into play.

Talrand's Invokation
2UU
Sorcery
Put two 2/2 blue drake creature tokens with flying into play.

So, blue not only generates more power for the same CMC but gets flying too? This is silly.
Agreed its a bit ridiculous. I think they are trying to make blue more aggressive but thats completely wrong. Blue has always been the least aggressive color.

Of all the things they've printed, Delver was the stupidest thing they've done in a while. 3/2 for one mana is already retarded.. and then they give it flying. What did green get? Scythe Tiger? Yeah I think I'll take the guy with evasion so my opponent doesn't 2 for 1 me when they block it.

Black hasn't gotten any love for a while.. unless you want to count Treacherous Pit-Dwellers, but frankly, Tombstalker is much better in its place. I REALLY want to see an undercosted black creature with some kind of draw back. Discard seriously needs to make a come back right now.

[DragoFireheart]

I think WotC should make more instant speed discard.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I think WotC should make more instant speed discard.

Wouldn't hold my breath. In the past, they've run out this strawman argument about how instant speed discard is inherently OP, since if your opponent is almost out of cards in hand, you can use Funeral Charm or Esper Charm or whatever during their draw step, and it allegedly frustrates new consumers if they can't mindlessly cast creatures and turn them sideways. And the power level on those two spells is just obviously out of control...

:rolleyes:

[Barook]

Wouldn't hold my breath. In the past, they've run out this strawman argument about how instant speed discard is inherently OP, since if your opponent is almost out of cards in hand, you can use Funeral Charm or Esper Charm or whatever during their draw step, and it allegedly frustrates new consumers if they can't mindlessly cast creatures and turn them sideways. And the power level on those two spells is just obviously out of control...

:rolleyes:
Considering how even Stone Rain is considered OP for T2 nowadays, I wouldn't hold my breath.

I would totally dig a black, undercosted beater with discard synergy, though.

Imagine something fat for :b::b:, Vexing Devil-style, except they would have to eat a Hymn to Tourach instead of damage to the face.

[Infinitium]

So you want an almost strictly worse Hymn of Tourach?

[Barook]

So you want an almost strictly worse Hymn of Tourach?
It depends on how threating the creature would be. If it had a very strong board presence, it would be Hymn 5-8 with the added bonus getting a strong creature once they're down to <2 cards.

[Kich867]

It depends on how threating the creature would be. If it had a very strong board presence, it would be Hymn 5-8 with the added bonus getting a strong creature once they're down to <2 cards.

Maybe something like this?

Vexing Demon - BB
Demon

Deathtouch
When Vexing Demon enters the battlefield, your opponent may discard any number of cards at random, for each card discarded this way put two -1/-1 counters on Vexing Demon.
5/4

If they hymn to tourach themselves you appropriately Hymn them, if they go for 1, you still get a 3/2 deathtouch for 2 and net a card, maybe even card advantage if they bolt it, if they let it go you get a huge ass beater.

[alderon666]

Maybe something like this?

Vexing Demon - BB
Demon

Deathtouch
When Vexing Demon enters the battlefield, your opponent may discard any number of cards at random, for each card discarded this way put two -1/-1 counters on Vexing Demon.
5/4

If they hymn to tourach themselves you appropriately Hymn them, if they go for 1, you still get a 3/2 deathtouch for 2 and net a card, maybe even card advantage if they bolt it, if they let it go you get a huge ass beater.

That card is ridiculous.

So if they have no cards in hand I have a BB 5/4 creature? Also discarding a card at random? WTH?

[Final Fortune]

Maybe you could create a strictly superior Flesh Reaver in BB, something along the lines of;

Flesh Golemn -BB
Creature - Horror

Whenever Flesh Golemn receives damage, Flesh Golemn deals an equal amount of damage to you.

5/5

That way you have a low cost, high power creature that can give you control of the board position at the cost of life vs card advantage when your opponent has to 2 for 1 you with a Grizzly Bear and Lightning Bolt for 5 life. It trades unfavorably with Tarmogoyf and has some disynergy with Dark Confident as well, which keeps the threat within reason and encourages differentiation in deck building.

Edit:

Another idea

Drifting Soul -1B
Creature - Spirit

Protection from White
Whenever Drifting Soul receives damage, place an equal number of -1/1 counters on Drifting Soul instead.

4/4

[Barook]

Vexing Demon - BB
Demon

Deathtouch
When Vexing Demon enters the battlefield, your opponent may discard any number of cards at random, for each card discarded this way put two -1/-1 counters on Vexing Demon.
5/4
5 power at 2 mana without a serious drawback is overpowered.

I would rather have some resilience over that:

Vexing Demon - :b::b:
Creature - Demon
Protection from white, deathtouch
When Vexing Demon enters the battlefield, any opponent may discard two cards at random. If a player does, sacrifice Vexing Demon.
3/4

[Darkenslight]

Vexing Demon :1::b::b:
Creature - Demon (R)
Protection from Black, Deathtouch
When Vexing Demon enters the battlefield, any opponent may discard two cards at random. If a player does, sacrifice Vexing Demon.
4/4

[Gheizen64]

Pimp Demon BBB
Trample
5/5

Negator sucks.

[Awaclus]

i just thought that this was worth pointing out:

Captains Call
3W
Sorcery
Put three 1/1 White soldier tokens into play.

Talrand's Invokation
2UU
Sorcery
Put two 2/2 blue drake creature tokens with flying into play.

So, blue not only generates more power for the same CMC but gets flying too? This is silly.
White has cards that care about Soldiers more than blue has cards that care about Drakes. The white card also puts more cards onto the battlefield than the blue one. Sure, when these cards are alone, Talrand's Invokation is better, but Captain's Call has better synergy with other cards, and cards having synergies is white's cup of tea flavor-wise.

[Gheizen64]

White has cards that care about Soldiers more than blue has cards that care about Drakes. The white card also puts more cards onto the battlefield than the blue one. Sure, when these cards are alone, Talrand's Invokation is better, but Captain's Call has better synergy with other cards, and cards having synergies is white's cup of tea flavor-wise.

While blue's cup of tea is being better?

[Aggro_zombies]

While blue's cup of tea is being better?
Considering "being better" has been part of blue's color pie since day one, I'm not sure why this is in any way surprising.

[Rizso]

The black colorpie is pretty untuned, unless its about overcosted cards...
IMO black colorpie should get redefined. Black used that have mana acc but it was lost to red and they dont print much pay life for cards anymore or tutorcards.

So what black currenlty got is:
Discard effects
Terror effects
Edict effects
Life for cards
Creatures with drawback
Vampires / zombies
strange stuff / graveyard related cards / Creatures with drawbacks
Sacrifing effects

[Barook]

The block colorpie is pretty untuned, unless its about overcosted cards...
IMO black colorpie should get redefined. Black used that have mana acc but it was lost to red and they dont print much pay life for cards anymore or tutorcards.

So what black currenlty got is:
Discard effects
Terror effects
Edict effects
Life for cards
Creatures with drawback
Vampires / zombies
strange stuff / graveyard related cards / Creatures with drawbacks
Sacrifing effects
Still better than what red has nowadays:

- Burn
- crappy, unplayable LD
- Artifact hate
- Threaten effects
- a bit of mana accel
- Goblins
- slowly getting more looter effects
- spell copying

[Aggro_zombies]

Still better than what red has nowadays:

- Burn
- crappy, unplayable LD
- Artifact hate
- Threaten effects
- a bit of mana accel
- Goblins
- slowly getting more looter effects
- spell copying
...except red's looter effects are terrible because they're discard first, then draw. I guess the gameplay is better because you need to be judicious in how you use them, but it's still amusing that they look so much worse than blue's despite being a big deal for red.

[DLifshitz]

So what black currenlty got is:
Discard effects
Terror effects
Edict effects
Life for cards
Creatures with drawback
Vampires / zombies
strange stuff / graveyard related cards / Creatures with drawbacks
Sacrifing effects

Sweepers
Land destruction (it's always very lackluster though)
multicolor-unfriendly mana costs
Drain Life effects
Infect (yuck! but it took up most of Scars block)
Nightmare effects (e.g. Lashwrithe)

Problem is, many of these things happen to be weak in Legacy. In other format, black has been doing better lately.

[Lord Seth]

White has cards that care about Soldiers more than blue has cards that care about Drakes. The white card also puts more cards onto the battlefield than the blue one. Sure, when these cards are alone, Talrand's Invokation is better, but Captain's Call has better synergy with other cards, and cards having synergies is white's cup of tea flavor-wise.Also important to note that even if they have the converted mana cost, the Blue card's cost is 2UU whereas the white's one is 3W. In other words, even if the total mana required is the same, one is more harsh in terms of what it requires. You can't just say "they have the same converted mana cost!" and try to compare them on that basis when one has more restrictions than the others. That's like being shocked at the power difference between Phyrexian Obliterator and Solemn Simulacrum even though they have the same converted mana cost.

[AriLax]

i just thought that this was worth pointing out:

Captains Call
3W
Sorcery
Put three 1/1 White soldier tokens into play.

Talrand's Invokation
2UU
Sorcery
Put two 2/2 blue drake creature tokens with flying into play.

So, blue not only generates more power for the same CMC but gets flying too? This is silly.

One of these is a common designed to fuel potential limited archetypes and not really be constructed playable. One of these is an uncommon designed to be a limited finisher that may or may not be constructed playable in smaller formats.

This is like saying "Blue's creatures are way too good. It gets Void Stalker when red doesn't even get Goblin Piker back".

[nedleeds]

Pimp Demon BBB
Trample
5/5

Negator sucks.

Miser of the Lamp
BB
2/2
Human Wizard
Pay 3 life and sacrifice Miser of the Lamp: Put a 5/5 Black Djinn token into play under your control. Use this ability only during your upkeep.

This card is fine. It means the djinn can't swing until next turn. Might make for some decent dark ritual, duress effect, this man starts.

[Tacosnape]

So I have it on a fairly decent source that the following land is in FTV Realms & Return to Ravnica, and I'm praying to god it's not printed exactly as is being told.

Guild City Hall
Land
Level Up :1:
(1-3) Tap: Add :2: to your mana pool.
(4+) Tap: Add :u::b::g::r::w: to your mana pool.

Does anybody know anything about this whatsoever, even if it's to confirm it's a hoax? Otherwise, buy your Candelabras now, because two of these, a Candelabra, and any other land results in 15 mana on turn three. And that's a little horrifying.

[Gheizen64]

So I have it on a fairly decent source that the following land is in FTV Realms & Return to Ravnica, and I'm praying to god it's not printed exactly as is being told.

Guild City Hall
Land
Level Up :1:
(1-3) Tap: Add :2: to your mana pool.
(4+) Tap: Add :u::b::g::r::w: to your mana pool.

Does anybody know anything about this whatsoever, even if it's to confirm it's a hoax? Otherwise, buy your Candelabras now, because two of these, a Candelabra, and any other land results in 15 mana on turn three. And that's a little horrifying.

Normal land, go. This, level up once, tap itself, level it twice, it's now lvl3. Turn 3 , tap land, it's now lvl 4, play candelabra, untap, 9 mana on T3. Seems good but not excessively. At least in a format with wasteland. In modern this is busted as shit, in legacy at least it can lead to big blowouts, invest 4 mana in this, get wasted.

Wasn't this a "create the card challenge" btw? I'm pretty sure it was.

EDIT: not exactly this, but pretty near:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=118721&stc=1&d=1305590938

[lordofthepit]

So I have it on a fairly decent source that the following land is in FTV Realms & Return to Ravnica, and I'm praying to god it's not printed exactly as is being told.

Guild City Hall
Land
Level Up :1:
(1-3) Tap: Add :2: to your mana pool.
(4+) Tap: Add :u::b::g::r::w: to your mana pool.

Does anybody know anything about this whatsoever, even if it's to confirm it's a hoax? Otherwise, buy your Candelabras now, because two of these, a Candelabra, and any other land results in 15 mana on turn three. And that's a little horrifying.

This seems pretty overpowered...

[Nihil Credo]

If you spend your second turn levelling up Guild City Hall you have 1WUBRG available on turn 3. Considering R&D is on the record as saying that they found the Signets a little too powerful, I'm not putting any money on that card being real.

Also didn't the Guilds get dismantled or some such in the Ravnica plotline?

[Amon Amarth]

Yeah, they Guildpact is gone. No more guilds, as far as I know. That land looks fake. And I don't remember them saying anything about a preview card for RtR in FTV: Realms.

[Tacosnape]

Going to hope my source's source is full of shit, then, because the guy I got the information from is right way more often than not. Or at the very least I'm going to hope there's a clause that makes it not exactly what it says it is. Kind of like how Explore was originally spoiled/rumored at one mana, then was revealed to be two.

Otherwise, Two of those lands, a basic land, and a Candelabra is a turn three hardcast Emrakul.

The sad part, is that three years ago? I'd have thought this was fake without a second thought. Now I've lost my faith in Wizards' self-moderation.

[Gheizen64]

Going to hope my source's source is full of shit, then, because the guy I got the information from is right way more often than not. Or at the very least I'm going to hope there's a clause that makes it not exactly what it says it is. Kind of like how Explore was originally spoiled/rumored at one mana, then was revealed to be two.

Otherwise, Two of those lands, a basic land, and a Candelabra is a turn three hardcast Emrakul.

The sad part, is that three years ago? I'd have thought this was fake without a second thought. Now I've lost my faith in Wizards' self-moderation.

Man what an amazing beautiful card that would have been.

[Aggro_zombies]

Level up seems like an extremely odd mechanic for Ravnica in general.

And yeah, that land is broken in half. It also doesn't naturally tap for mana, which is something R&D is on the record as stating they want all lands to do.

[Nihil Credo]

Also (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/21126910207/i-loved-level-up-does-it-have-a-good-chance-of):

androgeus (http://androgeus.tumblr.com/) asked: I loved Level Up. Does it have a good chance of returning one day?

I’m honestly not sure. It got mixed reactions both inside and outside of Wizards. Its best chance is it’s the mechanic that solves a problem for how to make a future set work.

This was in April, so he wouldn't say he "wasn't sure" if it had already been in RtR for several months

[Vacrix]

It also doesn't naturally tap for mana, which is something R&D is on the record as stating they want all lands to do.
I guess there's no love for Sorrow's Path.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

One of these is a common designed to fuel potential limited archetypes and not really be constructed playable. One of these is an uncommon designed to be a limited finisher that may or may not be constructed playable in smaller formats.

This is like saying "Blue's creatures are way too good. It gets Void Stalker when red doesn't even get Goblin Piker back".


And if recent events have taught us anything, it's that it would be silly to suggest that blue's creatures are too good.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

On a side note, level up is awesome and I hope they bring it back.

[Vacrix]

I agree. Level Up was a cool idea that will probably get more attention. I like the idea of paying alternative costs to Level Up rather than actually paying mana. Paying life, giving the opponent a benefit (like a card or token) or returning lands seems more like something that would become Legacy playable.


NOT spoilers. Just speculation on potential level up costs.

(card name) B
Creature - Nightmare
Level Up: Pay 2 life
Level 1: 2/2
Level 2-3: 3/3
Level 4+: 4/4 Shadow
1/1

(card name) WW
Creature - Human Soldier
Level Up: Return a basic plains to its owners hand
Level 1: T: Tap target creature
Level 2-4: 3/3 First strike
Level 5+: Sacrifice ~: destroy all creatures.
2/2

(card name) 1U
Creature - Illusion
Level up: An opponent draws a card.
Level 1-3: Unblockable
Level 4+: Gets +1/+1 equal to the number of cards in an opponents hand.
2/2

(card name) 1R
Creature - Goblin
Level up: Sacrifice a Goblin
Level 1-2: 3/3
Level 3+: Sacrifice a Goblin: Return a Goblin you control to its owners hand.
2/2

(card name) GG
Creature - Beast
Level Up: Sacrifice a land
Level 1-2: 4/4
Level 3+: 7/7 Trample
2/2

I'd like to see stuff with Level Up costs like these, but balanced.

[Nihil Credo]

Gonna lock this thread since the set is out (and before it turns into another card creation thread). When RtR rumours start spreading they will get their own thread.