[SCD] Spirit of the Labyrinth

[Dragonslayer_90]

So thoughts and evaluations from the community on Spirit of the Laybyrinth (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151341&d=1390194288)? Best brainstorm hate card ever printed? Will this card give Death and Taxes and/or Maverick another push? Discuss.

[testing32]

This is a hard card to evaluate.

[Tom T]

So thoughts and evaluations from the community on Spirit of the Laybyrinth (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151341&d=1390194288)? Best brainstorm hate card ever printed? Will this card give Death and Taxes and/or Maverick another push? Discuss.

So which "cards -> strategies" are hated by this card:

- Brainstorm (Hymn myself) -> 80% of the format
- Sorceryspeed cantrips -> Blue control
- Sensei's Divining Top -> Miracles
- Griselbrand -> Sneak&Show, Reanimator
- Enter the Infinite -> Omnitell
- Sylvan Library -> Jund, Maverick, Team America
- Carefull Study, Faithless Looting etc -> Dredge, Reanimator
- Glimpse of Nature, Elvish Visionairy -> Elves
...

Pretty good. First True-Name Nemesis, now this.. It makes me sad.

[Echelon]

Elf decks. It stops both Glimpse of Nature and the Elvish Visionary + Wirewood Symbiote engine. So you'll force them to either go for Natural Order or Green Sun's Zenith to fetch the Craterhoof Behemoth.

[Barook]

So which "cards -> strategies" are hated by this card:

- Brainstorm (Hymn myself) -> 80% of the format
- Sorceryspeed cantrips -> Blue control
- Sensei's Divining Top -> Miracles
- Griselbrand -> Sneak&Show, Reanimator
- Enter the Infinite -> Omnitell
- Sylvan Library -> Jund, Maverick, Team America
- Carefull Study, Faithless Looting etc -> Dredge, Reanimator
...

Pretty good. First True-Name Nemesis, now this.. It makes me sad.
TNN was a terrible addition to the format. This is a very positive one.

Sorcery speed cantrips are also played in Tempo and combo. It doesn't do too much against SDT.

How does it interact with Dredge?

[Tom T]

TNN was a terrible addition to the format. This is a very positive one.

Sorcery speed cantrips are also played in Tempo and combo. It doesn't do too much against SDT.

How does it interact with Dredge?

It breaks Carefull Study, Breakthrough, Faithless Looting. Every enabler of the deck except for the natural draw phase.

EDIT: I'm overreacting. The enchantment creature still has a converted manacost of 2. So Dredge and combo would've already used their cantrips/enablers.

[Grand Superior]

Fantastic addition to the format. Will certainly help Death and Taxes and Maverick but I'm unfamiliar with both of those decks so I don't know if they have room for it. It seems like a card that you would "make room" for, considering how ubiquitous Brainstorm is.

As an X/1 it is affected by True-Name Nemesis-hate splash damage, though. Golgari Charm and Zealous Persecution have never been more popular and this card dies to those just the same. Not to use the dumb "it dies to everything" argument but the tools are there to keep it in check. I foresee it being a player, but not a warping influence like TNN.

[Arsenal]

Fantastic addition to the format. Will certainly help Death and Taxes and Maverick but I'm unfamiliar with both of those decks so I don't know if they have room for it. It seems like a card that you would "make room" for, considering how ubiquitous Brainstorm is.

As an X/1 it is affected by True-Name Nemesis-hate splash damage, though. Golgari Charm and Zealous Persecution have never been more popular and this card dies to those just the same. Not to use the dumb "it dies to everything" argument but the tools are there to keep it in check. I foresee it being a player, but not a warping influence like TNN.

Maverick can easily make room for 4 SoL maindeck.

Also, once SoL resolves, you have to already have Golgari Charm/TNN splash hate in hand, otherwise, you are a slave to your natural draw step as you can no longer fire off a cantrip or two and dig for your answer. Remember too that SoL will often be played in decks running Mom, so SoL will often be protected from Bolt/StP/targeted removal, leaving you only with non-targeted removal as a means to kill dudes and only if the spell is already in hand when SoL hits play.

[rufus]

Maybe with something cute like Winds of Change, or as a specific sideboard card.

The thing is, that, at 2cc it seems unlikely to stop the other guy's first brainstorm or many other cantrips.

[Lemnear]

Maybe with something cute like Winds of Change, or as a specific sideboard card.

The thing is, that, at 2cc it seems unlikely to stop the other guy's first brainstorm or many other cantrips.

SoL can't let you draw extra cards, ergo you can't skip that draw for Winds. Do I miss something?

[Hopo]

SoL can't let you draw extra cards, ergo you can't skip that draw for Winds. Do I miss something?

The idea was likely to make both players discard their hands. Sweet Mind Twist, someone will surely try that somewhere sometime.

[Erdvermampfa]

Even though I like the card and the obvious intention behind it, I have to say that it's very easy to overestimate it. Its impact on the format will not be as big as some might think. Contrary to the general perception, Blue and specifically draw effects like Brainstorm aren't as dominant as people use to think. Decks like Jund, Junk, Goblins, NicFit, Merfolk etc. are still not uncommon and this new card barely hurts these. You just can't afford to run cards that hardly do anything in a good amount of matchups. In Legacy, a important criteria for the validity of a card is its applicability in a preferably wide range of matchups and this card does certainly not fulfill this.

[Goosen]

The idea was likely to make both players discard their hands. Sweet Mind Twist, someone will surely try that somewhere sometime.

Almost, the opp. will draw one card.

[Erdvermampfa]

On a side note, this certainly illustrates how much influence these internet discussions actually have on their new cards design. The demand of a Brainstorm-Hatebear has been roaming for quite some time in the forums and I'm fairly certain that this exact card had been suggested by the other user in a card creation thread.

[Squirrel]

It's Massacre time.

[Hopo]

On a side note, this certainly illustrates how much influence these internet discussions actually have on their new cards design. The demand of a Brainstorm-Hatebear has been roaming for quite some time in the forums and I'm fairly certain that this exact card had been suggested by the other user in a card creation thread.

Of course when you throw a million ideas to your left and right, at some point you are bound to score, by accident if nothing else. This tells nothing about how the community has any control over the matter.

[TsumiBand]

Of course when you throw a million ideas to your left and right, at some point you are bound to score, by accident if nothing else. This tells nothing about how the community has any control over the matter.

Yeah, this isn't a case of monkeys writing Shakespeare; this is monkeys talking about what books would be cool while in another room, Shakespeare is working on As You Like It.

I think it's a very solid hatebear (hatecat) that will help to make those so-called 'fair decks' a little more 'unfair' in that they game the 'unfair' decks into playing 'roughly as fair' as they are playing. Or something like that.

[Arsenal]

Even though I like the card and the obvious intention behind it, I have to say that it's very easy to overestimate it. Its impact on the format will not be as big as some might think. Contrary to the general perception, Blue and specifically draw effects like Brainstorm aren't as dominant as people use to think. Decks like Jund, Junk, Goblins, NicFit, Merfolk etc. are still not uncommon and this new card barely hurts these. You just can't afford to run cards that hardly do anything in a good amount of matchups. In Legacy, a important criteria for the validity of a card is its applicability in a preferably wide range of matchups and this card does certainly not fulfill this.

Blue and Brainstorm are at an all time high thanks to TNN. According to thecouncil, those non-blue decks you cite (Goblins isn't even a thing anymore, btw) didn't even crack the top 10 decks for December 2013. In fact, 9 out of the top 10 decks for December 2013 would get hosed by Spirit of the Labyrinth (the only 1 that wouldn't would be Death and Taxes... which would likley be the only deck among those top 10 to run Spirit).

I'm not quite understanding what you think "a good amount of matchups" means. The data clearly shows that blue is seeing a ton of play and non-blue decks are falling off the map.

[Zombie]

I'm salty. I get mauled by this and I don't even play blue. :/

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I believe the best fit for this hatecat is probably Deadguy Ale, simply because discard + this = turbo topdeck mode.

[TsumiBand]

I believe the best fit for this hatecat is probably Deadguy Ale, simply because discard + this = turbo topdeck mode.

Indeed. I think it's easy to see the future of generic White Weenie is more tied to prison than it has ever been. Thalia, Mindcensor, Canonist(maybe), Spirit of the Labyrinth... protected by Mother and armed with SFM. It's a nice place to start, anyway.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[FieryBalrog]

I really like this card. Too bad they had to print TNN first.

[(nameless one)]

With this guy, I am tempted to make A Beautiful Mind.dec comeback.

I mean while this guys shuts down all of the format's draw engines and filter spells, it doesn't affect Land Tax+Scroll Rack engine. It can also be Enlightened Tutored!

No more saving up for Chains and no more splashing black for Parfait!



Indeed. I think it's easy to see the future of generic White Weenie is more tied to prison than it has ever been. Thalia, Mindcensor, Canonist(maybe), Spirit of the Labyrinth... protected by Mother and armed with SFM. It's a nice place to start, anyway.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

I believe this deck already exist and it's called Death and Taxes

[Cire]

SOL + anvil of bogardan soft Lock Deadguy Ale deck?

4 SOL
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes

4 anvil of bogardan
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 STP

4 Thoughtsieze
4 Duress
4 Hymn
4 Diabolic Edict

4 Wasteland
16 Lands

[rufus]

SOL + anvil of bogardan soft Lock Deadguy Ale deck...

No Bob or Island Sanctuary?

[Cire]

No Bob or Island Sanctuary?

Forgot that Bob doesn't draw, and I never heard of Island Sanctuary. . . seems really good.

[Worldslayer]

I hate everything about this card.

I hate that it exists.

I hate that it's in a long line of shit that I hate exists.

And...come on? a 3/1? Because now that the combo player is on one card a turn we gotta make sure he dies as fast as possible or people are gonna keep playin them noncreature, nonplaneswalker spells. Is that generally the idea?

Wizards, you unmitigated asses.

I hate you.

[PirateKing]

Why are we calling this thing SoL when it's Spirit of the Labyrinth? We don't call Survival of the Fittest SoF, its SotF. Just curious how this abbreviation got propagated so early in the card's life.

[Shawon]

Keep calm and run Dread of Night, or Gut Shot. Gut Shot is a thing against Thalia too.

[Arsenal]

Why are we calling this thing SoL when it's Spirit of the Labyrinth? We don't call Survival of the Fittest SoF, its SotF. Just curious how this abbreviation got propagated so early in the card's life.

SoL as in "Soul" as in a spirit as in Spirit of the Labyrinth. Meh, that's my take on it.

[nedleeds]

Nice hate bear that cuts along another axis of hate (spell cost, # of spells, protect thy owner). This is a vintage card. Boy vialing this in response to Brainstorm is quite the ramrod ... they just Stunted Growth themselves. HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAHAHHAA.

[TsumiBand]

I figured it was a take on SOL as "shit outta luck"?

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Gheizen64]

It's decent but you have to consider that this:

- dies to everything, and i mean really everything since it has 1 toughness
- usually come down after the first cantrip has already been used, making it decent only for the 2nd and onward brainstorm. If your opponent know you're running this, he'll search an answer with the first brainstorm and this will be just a 1-1 trade.

It's good as a surprise hate card for Griselbrand or Brainstorms if vialed in, but as a normal hate bear is nothing spectacular. Thalia is amazing because she has combat stats too (first strike mean she can carry equip) and she tax the removal that would kill her. This isn't in the same ballpark, but it's decent enough. Being an enchantment is irrilevant if not for Goyf growing.

[Lemnear]

Nice hate bear that cuts along another axis of hate (spell cost, # of spells, protect thy owner). This is a vintage card. Boy vialing this in response to Brainstorm is quite the ramrod ... they just Stunted Growth themselves. HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAHAHHAA.

Heared that Brainstorm and Ponder are restricted anyways. On top of that: Turn 1 Chalices and Lodestone exist there too

[Arsenal]

It's decent but you have to consider that this:

- dies to everything, and i mean really everything since it has 1 toughness
- usually come down after the first cantrip has already been used, making it decent only for the 2nd and onward brainstorm. If your opponent know you're running this, he'll search an answer with the first brainstorm and this will be just a 1-1 trade.

It's good as a surprise hate card for Griselbrand or Brainstorms if vialed in, but as a normal hate bear is nothing spectacular. Thalia is amazing because she has combat stats too (first strike mean she can carry equip) and she tax the removal that would kill her. This isn't in the same ballpark, but it's decent enough. Being an enchantment is irrilevant if not for Goyf growing.

Many creatures "die to everything" yet are still played due to their impact and power level. I mean, if "dies to everything" was a reason not to play a card, Dark Confidant would be collecting dust in binders and the junk rare box.

Also, unless you're facing combo like AnT/TES/Sneak&Show, remember that tempo Delver decks and Blade Control decks often won't be firing off their cantrip turn 1. In those style of decks, cantrips are often reserved for specific situations that occur during the course of a longer game. Tempo Delver decks are often times casting Delver of Secrets turn 1, Wastelanding your nonbasic if you ran it out there, or holding up Stifle mana. And as a Stoneblade player, I can assure you that I've rarely gone "fetchland -> Tundra -> Brainstorm, pass" on turn 1 before, especially game 1 against an unknown opponent.

[testing32]

It's decent but you have to consider that this:

- dies to everything, and i mean really everything since it has 1 toughness
- usually come down after the first cantrip has already been used, making it decent only for the 2nd and onward brainstorm. If your opponent know you're running this, he'll search an answer with the first brainstorm and this will be just a 1-1 trade.

It's good as a surprise hate card for Griselbrand or Brainstorms if vialed in, but as a normal hate bear is nothing spectacular. Thalia is amazing because she has combat stats too (first strike mean she can carry equip) and she tax the removal that would kill her. This isn't in the same ballpark, but it's decent enough. Being an enchantment is irrilevant if not for Goyf growing.

I agree with this assessment. It with probably be a 1 for 1 swap with revoker in D&T but won't be enough to make the deck tier1. This guy really needed flash.

[nedleeds]

Heared that Brainstorm and Ponder are restricted anyways. On top of that: Turn 1 Chalices and Lodestone exist there too

Yeah nobody draws cards in Vintage. Maybe someday they'll print Gush, Jace, Ancestral Recall. Heck one day a key strategy might be to cast recall or many Gushes and then use a giant black regrowth to play them all again. Anyway, when that happens I'll PM you for more tips! Thanks!

[nedleeds]

dbl post

[Wynk]

I agree with this assessment. It with probably be a 1 for 1 swap with revoker in D&T but won't be enough to make the deck tier1. This guy really needed flash.

Yup. This card by itself won't make DnT tier 1. Luckily, DnT is already tier 1. :)

[Zombie]

Heared that Brainstorm and Ponder are restricted anyways. On top of that: Turn 1 Chalices and Lodestone exist there too

It trades with Lodestone.

[testing32]

Yup. This card by itself won't make DnT tier 1. Luckily, DnT is already tier 1. :)

I disagree. Hasn't been since TNN was printed. It matched up poorly against TNN and get hammered by the TNN hate.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Hmm . . . the more I think about it, this card doesn't seem all that great as a prison piece, at least against non-combo decks.

Why? Because it does die to everything without generating any real value unless vialed in response to something. Not that Tarmogoyf and Bob haven't already proven that to be false, but because it is a prison piece as opposed to "generic beatstick/advantagestick", not being able to protect itself and indeed dying to any sort of removal makes me questions its uses against Brainstorm.dec.

[TsumiBand]

Hmm . . . the more I think about it, this card doesn't seem all that great as a prison piece, at least against non-combo decks.

Why? Because it does die to everything without generating any real value unless vialed in response to something. Not that Tarmogoyf and Bob haven't already proven that to be false, but because it is a prison piece as opposed to "generic beatstick/advantagestick", not being able to protect itself and indeed dying to any sort of removal makes me questions its uses against Brainstorm.dec.

Only as easy to remove as any other White Weenie creature in a deck full of Mother of Runes and protection Swords, but yeah.

There's also the odd possibility that there's a new tribal deck in town. (I'm reaching, yes.)

http://images.magicmadhouse.co.uk/images/products/1327344612-28249600.jpg

I'm not positive that there are a ton of other Spirits worth playing. Geist of St Traft? Kataki? Tallowisp? :/ Okay maybe not.

But anyway, I don't know that the argument against any creature can strictly be "it can be answered". Especially since, for many decks in the format, this particular creature must be answered.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Only as easy to remove as any other White Weenie creature in a deck full of Mother of Runes and protection Swords, but yeah.

There's also the odd possibility that there's a new tribal deck in town. (I'm reaching, yes.)

http://images.magicmadhouse.co.uk/images/products/1327344612-28249600.jpg

I'm not positive that there are a ton of other Spirits worth playing. Geist of St Traft? Kataki? Tallowisp? :/ Okay maybe not.

But anyway, I don't know that the argument against any creature can strictly be "it can be answered". Especially since, for many decks in the format, this particular creature must be answered.

True, I guess I'm more or less thinking of the reasons why a non-combo deck would Brainstorm, Jacestorm, spin Top, etc. Isn't it usually to find answers or threats in the mid to late game?

[Koby]

It dies to both Serenity and Massacre, while still getting bounced by Chain of Vapor.

In other words, I don't even care in the slightest.

[The Big Ragu]

Looks like exactly the card our meta is in need of. I like it.

[TsumiBand]

In other words, I don't even care in the slightest.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uG51jUFfRwQ/Tn6M3CmljFI/AAAAAAAAADs/eNLmVMQzRsA/s1600/yoda-you-will-be01.jpg

[Arsenal]

I disagree. Hasn't been since TNN was printed. It matched up poorly against TNN and get hammered by the TNN hate.

thecouncil still has it D&T at 9th for November 2013 and 10th for December 2013. Where's the cutoff for top tier? Top 5? Because in September and October 2013 (two months before TNN), D&T was 7th place.

[phazonmutant]

Presenting 2Chainz

// Creatures - 16
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Deathrite Shaman

// Spells - 20
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Punishing Fire
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Anvil of Bogardan
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Winds of Change
4 Burning Wish
2 Life from the Loam

// Lands - 25
1 Dark Depths
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Scrubland
1 Barren Moor
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Thespian's Stage

// Sideboard
1 Dark Depths
1 Devastating Dreams
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Living Wish
1 Winds of Change
1 Life from the Loam
1 Slaughter Games
1 Chainer's Edict
2 Thoughtseize
1 Reverent Silence
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Chain Lightning

I have no idea how it beats True Name. But boy does this look sweet.

[nedleeds]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/in/278.jpg

Chain of Vapor this asshat!

[Arsenal]

I want to make a Green-White EDH deck with SoL, Sterling Grove, a bunch of tutors, Rest in Peace and Helm of Obedience just to hate all the ramp-ramp-ramp-fatty strategies that people seem to get wet over.

[Koby]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/in/278.jpg

Chain of Vapor this asshat!

http://www.nicoleangeleen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/serenity_now.jpg

[testing32]

thecouncil still has it D&T at 9th for November 2013 and 10th for December 2013. Where's the cutoff for top tier? Top 5? Because in September and October 2013 (two months before TNN), D&T was 7th place.

Using that logic, tcdecks also says that shardless bug would of been a great choice last month with it being in 4th place.

Edit: and rug

[Arsenal]

Using that logic, tcdecks also says that shardless bug would of been a great choice last month with it being in 4th place.

Uh... it was the 4th because it was a good choice. That means people were playing with it and doing well with it. It's a BGx deck that can run answers to the endless Delver-SFM-TNN (Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge) while having reasonable game versus combo thanks to having access to countermagic (FoW) and discard (Thoughtseize/Hymn).

I don't understand what you're saying. I provide you with data to show what decks are relevant in the meta and you're response is that Shardless BUG (4th place for December 2013) isn't a good choice because it was 4th? What?

[testing32]

Uh... it was the 4th because it was a good choice. That means people were playing with it and doing well with it. It's a BGx deck that can run answers to the endless Delver-SFM-TNN (Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge) while having reasonable game versus combo thanks to having access to countermagic (FoW) and discard (Thoughtseize/Hymn).

I don't understand what you're saying. I provide you with data to show what decks are relevant in the meta and you're response is that Shardless BUG (4th place for December 2013) isn't a good choice because it was 4th? What?

We are getting a little off topic but what I'm saying is that repeatedly top 8ing 30 to 50 man events doesn't mean a lot. Events that small get warped more based on variance and what the best local players are on compared to larger events. That combined with the fact that the meta is changing at a fast pace right now means the tcdecks data gets stale fast.

If there was a large event I wouldn't feel good about playing Shardless, RUG or D&T.

[KobeBryan]

It dies to both Serenity and Massacre, while still getting bounced by Chain of Vapor.

In other words, I don't even care in the slightest.

The almost exact thing can be said about thalia...and people worry or have to deal with it.

[Infinitium]

So anyway:

Mikokoro, Center of the Sea suddenly looks much better than previously, especially if Spirit gets as widespread as I think it will be (ie every remotely aggressive Wxx deck not running BS, Glimpse or LftL out there). Not a 4-of obviously, but I can see throwing one or two miser ones into decks already running Spirit.

[nedleeds]

http://www.nicoleangeleen.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/serenity_now.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-BU93Fp_1-pM/Ut1skcg9ehI/AAAAAAAACnc/a37adFtsRzs/s1024/IMAG1070.jpg

[Arsenal]

We are getting a little off topic but what I'm saying is that repeatedly top 8ing 30 to 50 man events doesn't mean a lot. Events that small get warped more based on variance and what the best local players are on compared to larger events. That combined with the fact that the meta is changing at a fast pace right now means the tcdecks data gets stale fast.

If there was a large event I wouldn't feel good about playing Shardless, RUG or D&T.

Looking at thecouncil's data for all 100+ player tourneys since December 2013 through today, there has been a BUG Control, RUG Delver and/or D&T deck in the top 8/16 in all but ONE tourney (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12578). For all others, RUG/D&T/Shardless BUG has been well represented:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12653
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12597
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12577
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12418
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12428
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12416
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12413
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12358
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12373
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12384

To recap, 10 out of 11 100+ player tourneys has seen a Shardless BUG, RUG Delver and/or D&T deck in the top 8/16 since December 2013 through now. Again, where are you getting your data from because all of the data I'm looking at is contrary to your position. Care to share?

[lavafrogg]

Like i said in the other thread, decks that are going to play this will be aggressive, like zoo, where you won't be able to draw cards to get past them or non blue aggro control decks that are BW based. My best guess, and pet deck, is Junk. Being able to play tons of cards to get ahead of the opponent while they can't just straight up draw cards will be huge. Confidant, Loam, Jitte, Punishing fire, fauna shaman, recursion(genesis? squee?) will be able to pace past any deck still trying to cast cantrips for value on your turn.

I don't think DnT or Maverick will want this unless it is a straight swap for thalia and I feel that Thalia is a better card, especially with wastelands.

[Arsenal]

I don't think DnT or Maverick will want this unless it is a straight swap for thalia and I feel that Thalia is a better card, especially with wastelands.

Maverick has plenty of space for this guy. I posted a very rough draft of what GW Zenith Maverick could look like with SoL in the Maverick thread. You don't swap Thalia and Sol, you run playsets of each.

[jbone2016]

Maybe the combo deck starts running sleight of hand instead......that's going a little deep, however.

[lavafrogg]

Maverick has plenty of space for this guy. I posted a very rough draft of what GW Zenith Maverick could look like with SoL in the Maverick thread. You don't swap Thalia and Sol, you run playsets of each.

SotL is a lot like discard. It is really great when you land it before they can use their awesome cards, but does nothing if they just draw it off the top. The biggest saving grace is that it is a 3/1 but Thalia has first strike which is actually a big deal. I don't want 8 cantrip haters main in my maverick list, but I do in my spell heavy junk list.... See where I'm going again?

[TsumiBand]

SotL is a lot like discard. It is really great when you land it before they can use their awesome cards, but does nothing if they just draw it off the top. The biggest saving grace is that it is a 3/1 but Thalia has first strike which is actually a big deal. I don't want 8 cantrip haters main in my maverick list, but I do in my spell heavy junk list.... See where I'm going again?

I dunno, i think that it's a body is reason enough that it's not comparable to discard. Duress is a crappy topdeck, but Duress can't wear a Jitte either. It's a bit apples and oranges.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[nedleeds]

SotL is a lot like discard. It is really great when you land it before they can use their awesome cards, but does nothing if they just draw it off the top. The biggest saving grace is that it is a 3/1 but Thalia has first strike which is actually a big deal. I don't want 8 cantrip haters main in my maverick list, but I do in my spell heavy junk list.... See where I'm going again?

I think W/g or G/w would rather play Sylvan Library than play this un GSZable dude. GW has access to Teeg and Thalia, Canoist, AMC.

[Richard Cheese]

Shouldn't it be a Minotaur? I think it should probably be a Minotaur. 2/10 would not play.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It breaks Carefull Study, Breakthrough, Faithless Looting. Every enabler of the deck except for the natural draw phase.

Isn't dredge a replacement effect?
Also, this card seems busted with Vendilion Clique. Sadly, Clique is quite often played along the cantrips.

[Barook]

So anyway:

Mikokoro, Center of the Sea suddenly looks much better than previously, especially if Spirit gets as widespread as I think it will be (ie every remotely aggressive deck not running BS, Glimpse or LftL out there). Not a 4-of obviously, but I can see throwing one or two miser ones into decks already running Spirit.
The combo with Mikokoro sounds pretty cool, especially if you fetch it with KotR. Interesting, at the very least.

[Gheizen64]

This in BW sounds pretty sick actually.

4 SotL
4 Confidants
4 SFM
4 Thalia
4 Mom
4 DRS

1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 SoFaF

3 Zealous persecution
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Swords

21 lands

Jund would roll over you however. Zealous persecution is such a good card right now too. You can play a couple of Enlightened tutors in the side for artifact/enchantment silver bullet hate + can tutor for SotL. Like 4 Enlightened tutors+ couple of RiP + Phyrexian Revoker + enginereed plague + o.ring etc...

[Koby]

Isn't dredge a replacement effect?


Dredge is a replacement effect. My suspicion is if you can dredge 3 times with Sylvan Library and put nothing back; then replacing all extra draws with a Dredge should achieve the same thing. Thus, you are not technically "drawing" additional cards, and SotL would not stop you from dredging those additional draws.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I don't think that works like that. If it's a replacement effect then it won't ever happen because the draw won't ever be allowed after the first one of the turn.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[rufus]

Dredge is a replacement effect. My suspicion is if you can dredge 3 times with Sylvan Library and put nothing back; then replacing all extra draws with a Dredge should achieve the same thing. Thus, you are not technically "drawing" additional cards, and SotL would not stop you from dredging those additional draws.

They're kind of sloppy with that stuff. Maralen of the Mornsong prevents replacement effects, so, once you've drawn a card, this might also. (If you dredge *before* you draw a card, it seems like it has to work.)

[Technics]

I don't think that works like that. If it's a replacement effect then it won't ever happen because the draw won't ever be allowed after the first one of the turn.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

As long as you start dredging from the very first draw, SotL will never see a card drawn and thus not restrict any new draws. If every draw in replaced you never actually draw a card and thus can dredge all you want.

Dredge doesnt care about this card in the slightest.

Edit: if you were running Azami, Tomorrows Familar you would also have no issue.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[miguelmatix]

Now we can all maindeck 4 PHELDDAGRIF without the fear of giving cards to our opponents when we activate them. :laugh:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Oh my.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Technics]

Citing relevent rules for it's interaction with Dredge.

614.6. If an event is replaced, it never happens. A modified event occurs instead, which may in turn trigger abilities. Note that the modified event may contain instructions that can't be carried out, in which case the impossible instruction is simply ignored.

Of note, if the first draw of a turn is normally drawn then the SotL prevents any additional draws, and thus none can be replaced. However if no normal draw ever occurs, then the "first draw of the turn" has never occurred yet, and thus any draws can be replaced.

[Blakroc]

Just brainstorming (ha) the Drogskol Captain Spirit tribal idea; Lingering Souls tokens are spirits. So are Dungeon Geists and Kira. Still seems like a bit of a long shot though.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's not good enough to go tribal for. Its a hatekitty for decks without brainstorm that are on color.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[TsumiBand]

Yeah it was a long shot. Really though, Drogskol Captain is a really cool Lord and I would be surprised if Spirit tribal ever became a deck without 6 of these in the main.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It could be a controllish uw idea for modern except you won't be able to get good value with SoL in that crappy already blue hating format.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Megadeus]

Yeah it was a long shot. Really though, Drogskol Captain is a really cool Lord and I would be surprised if Spirit tribal ever became a deck without 6 of these in the main.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

Captain plus Image was very good in standard.

[Humphrey]

why are you guys discussing akward protection, when there is mom? is this mtgsalvation?

[2Rach]

So am I the only one who thinks while this targets (a few) very good and popular cards, that it won't really do much because it doesn't target decks' strategies?

EDIT:
Good card, but to narrow for main deck, better options in sideboard, imo.

[from Cairo]

So am I the only one who thinks while this targets (a few) very good and popular cards, that it won't really do much because it doesn't target decks' strategies?

EDIT:
Good card, but to narrow for main deck, better options in sideboard, imo.

You are not alone.

[Barook]

So am I the only one who thinks while this targets (a few) very good and popular cards, that it won't really do much because it doesn't target decks' strategies?

EDIT:
Good card, but to narrow for main deck, better options in sideboard, imo.
How are draw engines not a deck's strategy?

I agree that it's probably more sideboard stuff, though, but only testing can determine that.

[Lemnear]

How are draw engines not a deck's strategy?

I agree that it's probably more sideboard stuff, though, but only testing can determine that.

The only decks in current Legacy who's draw-engine is their strategy are Spiral Tide (Time Spiral) and OmniTell (Enter the Infinite). For the rest, the draw-engine (does such even exist in Legacy as such? Gush-Bond, Intuition/Accumulated Knowledge, etc. are engines) is Independent from the game strategy as it does not affect your SFM, Ad Nauseam, Show&Tell, etc. directly.

[lavafrogg]

The only decks in current Legacy who's draw-engine is their strategy are Spiral Tide (Time Spiral) and OmniTell (Enter the Infinite). For the rest, the draw-engine (does such even exist in Legacy as such? Gush-Bond, Intuition/Accumulated Knowledge, etc. are engines) is Independent from the game strategy as it does not affect your SFM, Ad Nauseam, Show&Tell, etc. directly.

I would say that the cantrip base that most blue decks play brainstorm/ponder/etc are their draw engine. It is not a card advantage engine but they are a card selection engine for sure. The engine is the reason rug has been good for so long, it is just wayyyyyy too efficient at finding what it needs at the exact time it needs to be found.

[lavafrogg]

is the spirit/anvil interaction any good? Anvil is good with any recursion and the two could wreck combo decks that would have to top deck an instant speed answer very soon or risk their hand being eaten.

[Poron]

So am I the only one who thinks while this targets (a few) very good and popular cards, that it won't really do much because it doesn't target decks' strategies?

EDIT:
Good card, but to narrow for main deck, better options in sideboard, imo.

you mean that after 2-3 mana storm one of this via Vial, doesn't "target decks' strategies"? that's just gg

[lavafrogg]

you mean that after 2-3 mana storm one of this via Vial, doesn't "target decks' strategies"? that's just gg

In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary... "Come again?"

[Humphrey]

The only decks in current Legacy who's draw-engine is their strategy are Spiral Tide (Time Spiral) and OmniTell (Enter the Infinite). For the rest, the draw-engine (does such even exist in Legacy as such? Gush-Bond, Intuition/Accumulated Knowledge, etc. are engines) is Independent from the game strategy as it does not affect your SFM, Ad Nauseam, Show&Tell, etc. directly.

Who plays Spiral Tide or Omnitell anyway? The most (successful) played deck with a draw engine is elves. Good morning, Sir.
Also the most played card of the format reads: Draw three


This whole thread is stupid as [insert]

[Zombie]

The only decks in current Legacy who's draw-engine is their strategy are Spiral Tide (Time Spiral) and OmniTell (Enter the Infinite). For the rest, the draw-engine (does such even exist in Legacy as such? Gush-Bond, Intuition/Accumulated Knowledge, etc. are engines) is Independent from the game strategy as it does not affect your SFM, Ad Nauseam, Show&Tell, etc. directly.

You play a deck with two different draw engines, one of which is a win condition itself. You should know.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

you mean that after 2-3 mana storm one of this via Vial, doesn't "target decks' strategies"? that's just gg

Wut?

[Lemnear]

You play a deck with two different draw engines, one of which is a win condition itself. You should know.

Visionary + Symbiote is indeed. Missed the obvious.

[Poron]

In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary... "Come again?"

I'm arguing that this card DO mess with deck strategies. As long as those strategies involve "drawing cards".

ANT, TES and Elves are all decks (whose strategies) are totally messed by this card (and by Ethersworn Canonist).

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'm arguing that this card DO mess with deck strategies. As long as those strategies involve "drawing cards".

ANT, TES and Elves are all decks (whose strategies) are totally messed by this card (and by Ethersworn Canonist).

Why you mention ANT and TES specifically? Wouldn't "Brainstorm.dec" suffice?

[aluisiocsantos]

If anything you'll trade it for 3 hit points or one less Abrupt Decay.

[Dragonslayer_90]

In relation to how this card affects fair blue decks: I think that this card doesn't out right wreck fair blue decks as it does the combo decks with draw engines mentioned above. I kind of think of it as akin to chalice of the void. Just like Chalice, Spirit make fair blue decks less consistent when it's in play since now the blue player has to play from the top of their deck. This is something their deck is not built to do as well as decks like Death and Taxes, Maverick, and any other deck that may run this. However, I have won thru chalice of the void on 1 turn 1. So, if as a fair blue player, I already have what I need to answer the Spirit in hand or what I need to win, I could care less really. The only thing the spirit will do is either eat removal or prevent me from finding more cards to further or protect my game plan, whatever that may be.

[Lemnear]

I'm arguing that this card DO mess with deck strategies. As long as those strategies involve "drawing cards".

ANT, TES and Elves are all decks (whose strategies) are totally messed by this card (and by Ethersworn Canonist).

Lol ... I suggest reading Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor, LED and Burning Wish ... count the numbers of the word "draw".

You picked THE 3 decks that are best suited to resist SotL

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Lol ... I suggest reading Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor, LED and Burning Wish ... count the numbers of the word "draw".

You picked THE 3 decks that are best suited to resist SotL

That's why I asked about the first two. I hope Poron meant that the hatecat affects cantrips... but if he meant that it stops AdN...

[Echelon]

Elves runs 8 cards with the word "draw", so it's only 2 out of 3 :smile:.

[Poron]

it doesn't stop either Dark Confidant nor Ad Nauseam but good luck scultping your hand without Brainstorms and Ponders.

And, as I meant, after you make him waste 1-2 mana storm cards (Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, anything) it must be rather sweet to tap your Aether Vial @2 for this guy.

As much as it would be sweet to drop Canonist at that point and both are tutorable for W..

imho it's a strong card that deals with many deck strategies

[Lemnear]

That's why I asked about the first two. I hope Poron meant that the hatecat affects cantrips... but if he meant that it stops AdN...

That's why I chopped in that notch. I'm curious how a 2cc creature shall mess with decks that can explode between turn 1 & 3.


it doesn't stop either Dark Confidant nor Ad Nauseam but good luck scultping your hand without Brainstorms and Ponders.

And, as I meant, after you make him waste 1-2 mana storm cards (Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, anything) it must be rather sweet to tap your Aether Vial @2 for this guy.

As much as it would be sweet to drop Canonist at that point and both are tutorable for W..

imho it's a strong card that deals with many deck strategies

Erm ... those decks don't sculpt for 5 turns or so dood. The second sentence doesn't make sense for me ... how does a vialed SotL affect the Rituals or the follwing Infernal, Wish, Ad Nauseam, Past in Flames?

[Illusions]

A haiku:

Flat-arsed white girl stops
My brainstorm from resolving.
Damn you, hateful bitch.

On a brighter note, this card will be sick in deadguy ale, and junk. SoL, bob, liliana, and DRS will be a thing. You heard it here first. There might even be a place for her in a punishing naya, or punishing team italia deck. I look forward to seeing what people come up with.

[TsumiBand]

A haiku:

Flat-arsed white girl stops
My brainstorm from resolving.
Damn you, hateful bitch.

On a brighter note, this card will be sick in deadguy ale, and junk. SoL, bob, liliana, and DRS will be a thing. You heard it here first. There might even be a place for her in a punishing naya, or punishing team italia deck. I look forward to seeing what people come up with.

I'm not an English major or anything, but you gotta think about the structure of the haiku, mang. Those newlines are similar to commas, at least inasmuch as their placement matters. You're not writing seventeen syllables, you're writing 5, then 7, then 5.

Don't continue a
thought on the next line. It just
looks messy as hell.

If it were me, I'd think about shuffling some of those words around, maybe making use of the finest punctuation mark available; the semicolon.

That flat-assed white girl;
She made my Brainstorm shitty!
Damn you, hateful bitch.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

And, as I meant, after you make him waste 1-2 mana storm cards (Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, anything) it must be rather sweet to tap your Aether Vial @2 for this guy.


Which does what exactly?

[Megadeus]

If you are a combo deck on the draw vs this thing, there is a good chance you only get to fire off one cantrip. I'd say that hurts a lot

[Poron]

totally blocks every cantrip they're gonna play.
Manamorphose, Ponder, Brainstorm. that's just 12 dead cards.
Occasionally anything else that makes them draw cards.

Omniscience, Solidarity and Spiral Tide are just a pile of dead cards as well as if the opponent just dropped Iona naming blue

[Lemnear]

If you are a combo deck on the draw vs this thing, there is a good chance you only get to fire off one cantrip. I'd say that hurts a lot

Indeed ... like in my signature ;D

[Lemnear]

totally blocks every cantrip they're gonna play.
Manamorphose, Ponder, Brainstorm. that's just 12 dead cards.
Occasionally anything else that makes them draw cards.

Wut? Classic case of not knowing, but talking about decks.

[Arsenal]

AnT typically runs 16 cantrips; 4 Brainstorm, 4 Gitaxian Probe, 4 Ponder, 4 Preordain. How people are thinking SoL won't do much versus AnT is just beyond me.

[Lemnear]

AnT typically runs 16 cantrips; 4 Brainstorm, 4 Gitaxian Probe, 4 Ponder, 4 Preordain. How people are thinking SoL won't do much versus AnT is just beyond me.

It runs 12 and the rest are a matter of choice often used for LimDuls Vault, EtW, Grim Tutor or Burning Wishes. Postboard there are a shitload of Dread of Nights and Chain of Vapor out of ANT Sideboards. TES just uses it's Belcher Mode and kills you. This card is strickly worse than Thalia in the storm matchup

[Arsenal]

It runs 12 and the rest are a matter of choice often used for LimDuls Vault, EtW, Grim Tutor or Burning Wishes. Postboard there are a shitload of Dread of Nights and Chain of Vapor out of ANT Sideboards. TES just uses it's Belcher Mode and kills you

And if you don't have Dread of Night/Chain of Vapor in hand when SoL enters play? Also, thecouncil shows that Dread of Night was rarely played in AnT sideboards. In fact, only 5 AnT decks ran Dread of Night in their board for the entire month of December 2013. I don't think a "shitload" is the correct term to use when describing the play of Dread of Night in AnT's SBs. And Chain of Vapor? Sure, but how is that helping you when D&T/Maverick goes turn 1 Mother of Runes, turn 2 SoL?

[Lemnear]

And if you don't have Dread of Night/Chain of Vapor in hand when SoL enters play?

Considering that you draw 7 starting cards and can at least fire off 1 cantrip, the Chance so find one is pretty good as you can even mull for it. A single DoN stops every Thalia or SotL.

[gregtron]

Lol ... I suggest reading Ad Nauseam, Infernal Tutor, LED and Burning Wish ... count the numbers of the word "draw".

You picked THE 3 decks that are best suited to resist SotL

If ANT is on the draw and sees this guy on Opponent's turn 2 then it could definitely be an issue for ANT, especially considering that a significant number of ANT players are cutting Ad Neaseam from their maindecks. If ANT is on the play, though, they can fire off three cantrips, or two cantrips and a Thoughtseize before it comes into play. ANT generally needs a few turns to set up, which theoretically makes this little fella problematic, but storm players have been fighting Gaddock Teeg and the Hate Bear Coalition long enough that it won't be any worse than maindeck Thalias.

Then again, unlike Teeg (who shuts down our win conditions) or Thalia (who shuts down everything) or even Phyrexian Revoker (who shuts off our mana rocks), this new card doesn't stop us from killing anyone. It only impedes setup. And we can still LDV into a Burning Wish to grab a Massacre.

I guess I'm saying I think the truth is somewhere between "I'm dead" and "you're dead".

[TsumiBand]

Considering that you draw 7 starting cards and can at least fire off 1 cantrip, the Chance so find one is pretty good as you can even mull for it. A single DoN stops every Thalia or SotL.

So you're saying, it's time for Abolish to come back into sideboards?

[gregtron]

Which does what exactly?

It will make the storm player pause, shuffle the cards in his hand, and make brief eye contact before saying "LED, LED, Infernal hellbent."

[Lemnear]

So you're saying, it's time for Abolish to come back into sideboards?

I have no clue what you are talking about, pal

[Arsenal]

It will make the storm player pause, shuffle the cards in his hand, and make brief eye contact before saying "LED, LED, Infernal hellbent."

As someone who has a very skilled AnT player in my playgroup, this certainly isn't how the majority of games go. The vast majority of games involve multiple cantrips to sculpt their hand through multiple turns. If AnT has the nut, sure, it doesn't really matter what you did, but if they don't (and they often don't), then they crutch pretty hard on their cantrips/dig spells. SoL shuts down 12-16 of them.

Also, AnT doesn't run Thoughtseize maindeck, virtually all builds are going with Cabal Therapy/Gitaxian Probe + Duress package. I've seen a couple builds run 1-2 Thoughtseize in the SB, but even that's not very common.

[TsumiBand]

I have no clue what you are talking about, pal

Dread of Night = enchantment

Abolish = free Disenchant for White players

ANT plays DoN, WW plays Abolish. Tech over.

Besides, any Maverick or Zoo or whatever GW deck plays Thalia/SoL can easily (continue to) play Qasali Pridemage.

Pal.

[gregtron]

As someone who has a very skilled AnT player in my playgroup, this certainly isn't how the majority of games go. The vast majority of games involve multiple cantrips to sculpt their hand through multiple turns. If AnT has the nut, sure, it doesn't really matter what you did, but if they don't (and they often don't), then they crutch pretty hard on their cantrips/dig spells. SoL shuts down 12-16 of them.

Also, AnT doesn't run Thoughtseize maindeck, virtually all builds are going with Cabal Therapy/Gitaxian Probe + Duress package. I've seen a couple builds run 1-2 Thoughtseize in the SB, but even that's not very common.

I'm glad you know a guy who plays Tendrils. Maybe he can point out to you that when we cast Dark Rituals we are done cantripping and have decided to kill you.

[Arsenal]

I'm glad you know a guy who plays Tendrils. Maybe he can point out to you that when we cast Dark Rituals we are done cantripping and have decided to kill you.

You're cantripping through SoL? Please, tell me more.

[Squirrel]

Dread of Night = enchantment

Abolish = free Disenchant for White players

ANT plays DoN, WW plays Abolish. Tech over.

Besides, any Maverick or Zoo or whatever GW deck plays Thalia/SoL can easily (continue to) play Qasali Pridemage.

Pal.

Spirit= x/1 Creature

DoN= -1/-1 Effekt. Kill the x/1. Take Some Moms and Thalias while youre at it.

Board in a card that only stops DoN

Abolish the DoN, who has already done it's thing.

Very Techy. wow.

[gregtron]

You're cantripping through SoL? Please, tell me more.

The reply was definitely facetious, referring to someone who thinks vialing in a Brainstorm Hate Bear in response to Rituals is going to do anything for them. Unless this D&T player is also running a Chrome Mox or something to cast it on turn 1, then everyone will be cantripping before it comes into play. And even with the knowledge that this card exists, I really doubt that anyone is going to blind Therapy naming anything other than Thalia in the match.


Also, I can't believe you guys are arguing with Lemnear about what is or isn't good against storm. You're all lucky Brant Cook is busy today.

and by everyone, i mean storm players because we are the handsome, courageous superstars of legacy

[Arsenal]

And as I've pointed out Dread of Night isn't an auto-include for AnT sideboards. Only 5 AnT decks in the entire month of December ran that card in their sideboards. Maybe it'll see increased play once people start running SoL, but let's not talk about Dread of Night being some ubiquitous AnT sideboard card.

[gregtron]

And as I've pointed out Dread of Night isn't an auto-include for AnT sideboards. Only 5 AnT decks in the entire month of December ran that card in their sideboards. Maybe it'll see increased play once people start running SoL, but let's not talk about Dread of Night being some ubiquitous AnT sideboard card.

Storm sideboards are more heavily influenced by metagame shifts than most other decks because the cards that beat us tend to be so narrow, and for a while we needed more Massacres and fewer DoNs to battle UWx decks that play Meddling Mage, True Name, and SFM, because those decks were on the upswing while D&T was on the downswing.

I'm pretty sure everyone still owns multiple copies of DoN, and would be more than happy to dust them off and re-sleeve them.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I really love how one dude's post about "Vial a 3/1 cat in response to 2nd Cabal Ritual and laugh out diabolically" brought such a pile of nonsense one can't even read it all of a sudden.

This cat does its job against cantrips. We all know it, thanks for letting us know. It does, however, pretty much nothing when vialed in response to 2nd Cabal Ritual, unless the miser is going to play (PiF and then flashback) the cantrips to find the ToA cause his hand is clogged and he just cannot IT->win. Also, one may still BS on opponents' turns.
You need to prevent the cantrips, not vial Craw Wurm in response to kill on the stack.

Dafuq is with this forum?

[Humphrey]

Lets run Portent again

But yeah, Forum hit bottom ground in this thread. I really like how people discuss current decklist/sb as theyll never change.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Speaking of Storm-combo, this card now makes me sad ... this pretty much kills Spanish Inquisition.

[Poron]

it just gives you one more turn to deal with it but no more..

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Speaking of Storm-combo, this card now makes me sad ... this pretty much kills Spanish Inquisition.

Spanish inquisition? Isn't that the deck that wins on turn1 70% of time?

[gregtron]

Dafuq is with this forum?

We're bored at work and want to argue about Magic cards. Same as every day.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Spanish inquisition? Isn't that the deck that wins on turn1 70% of time?

It's fast combo akin to Belcher and Tin Fins, but it also relies more heavily on draw spells than other fast combo: they literally have to have an answer to this in hand (even if hardcast and not vialed in) or all their draw 4 spells lose half can't do shit.

[Higgs]

We're bored at work and want to argue about Magic cards. Same as every day.

Liked.

[gregtron]

Spanish inquisition? Isn't that the deck that wins on turn1 70% of time?

It's the storm deck that runs Culling the Weak with the black draw-fours. Someone on MTGS claims to have an experimental version that goldfishes turn 1 70% of the time, but the stable versions seem to be topping out between 35% and 50%. Either way, yeah, it seems like Thalia is just a better hate card against them than SotL.

[TsumiBand]

Spirit= x/1 Creature

DoN= -1/-1 Effekt. Kill the x/1. Take Some Moms and Thalias while youre at it.

Board in a card that only stops DoN

Abolish the DoN, who has already done it's thing.

Very Techy. wow.

Sorry, but if DoN is even half as ubiquitous as people are making it sound like it's going to be (it's not), White is fucking lousy with answers to enchantments. Abolish is one card in like, 200. I would Leave No Trace the everloving donkey balls out of a board full of Dread of Night and/or whatever other derps, Engineered Plague or whatever. Seal of Cleansing for that whole 'lol i answered ur answer before u played it lol' thing. Aura of Silence, War Priest of Thune, Dispeller's Capsule, Sundering Growth if you're into that whole token making thing… shit mang, I'd even Illumination an enchantment spell. I love bad answers to cards. The Spanish Inquisition Theorem holds true for White Enchantment hate; there's a shitpot of it and you can't just know what it's going to look like or how it'll show up.

Besides, who are all these bad players that just play into your Dread of Night anyway?

[gregtron]

Besides, who are all these bad players that just play into your Dread of Night anyway?

We call them Death and Taxes players.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I know what's SI, it was rhetoric question. That deck is either (a) killed by the hatecat or (b) doesn't care of it. Esp. with SI on the play, the latter seems quite possible.

[gregtron]

I know what's SI, it was rhetoric question. That deck is either (a) killed by the hatecat or (b) doesn't care of it. Esp. with SI on the play, the latter seems quite possible.

My apologies; tone doesn't really come through in text.

I agree with you, though. Turn 1-2 decks probably won't care about SotL, turn 3 decks will likely have an answer for it from splash-damage for Thalia/Teeg alone, and it will be situationally good against decks that can either find an answer for it (Omnitell) or have a solid backup plan (Elves). It's a fine addition to the Hate Bear suite, but it's not insta-win against anyone.

[Holly]

How do you want to play around DoN with SoL ? Not playing it out ? I doubt that'll work out in your favor .

Ans every "answer" to DoN you gave doesn't stop it from killing your Thalia/SoL before you can destroy it with your preemptive seal or whatever bad (as you would say) answer you play.

[TsumiBand]

We call them Death and Taxes players.

Well I wouldn't know about that, I'm a little kid that plays BW Deadguy featuring Exalted Angel. Karakas is like, expensive, man.

I'm just looking forward to people who are unable to strategize around this -1/-1 effect that is supposedly going to blow out a deck with some White creatures in it. People couldn't make Engineered Plague stick against competitive tribal strategies in Legacy, and Golgari Charm is already a thing and it hasn't 'gotcha-d' D&T out of Tier 1, so I guess the only thing to do is sit back and see what actually happens.

[Arsenal]

I still haven't seen a decent answer to "what if you don't have DoN in hand/on board when SoL enters play?" gregtron said something about 7 card opener + 1 cantrip will get you there... I'm not so sure. And if the D&T/Maverick player has the Storm player mulling into DoN, that greatly favors the D&T/Maverick player before the game even begins.

[Lemnear]

I know what's SI, it was rhetoric question. That deck is either (a) killed by the hatecat or (b) doesn't care of it. Esp. with SI on the play, the latter seems quite possible.

I dare to add: The same is true for all flavors of storm-combo as well as decks like Reanimator or the S&T supertype.

The "I have SotL and Thalia in my 75! You shall scoop!" idea is just hilarious narrow-minded


I still haven't seen a decent answer to "what if you don't have DoN in hand/on board when SoL enters play?" gregtron said something about 7 card opener + 1 cantrip will get you there... I'm not so sure. And if the D&T/Maverick player has the Storm player mulling into DoN, that greatly favors the D&T/Maverick player before the game even begins.

I mentioned the fact that you'll be able to see up to 11 cards with your starting grip and a cantrip to find either a DoN, Therapy, Thoughtseize (this should def. see play over Duress now) or a CoV after boarding on the play (on the draw you can still simply fire off a thoughtseize, Probe+Therapy or hold already the DoN in hand). I'm sure that's more than likely to find an out

If you have nothing of those, pretty much the same happens as if D&T keeps a hand without hatebears or a blue deck a Hand without counterspells: You'll likely lose because of your own stupity

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

I don´t think he expect people playing into it but has planed it as a answer to an allready resolved X/1 hatebear. So anything happens after it comes into play and kills
the Sol/Thalia is the combo and then you are hopefully dead. This would explain why they don´t care for enchantment hate.

For card itself I think its good but not broken like shit you have possibilities to answer it with counters like spell Snare, Mass Removal and Spot Removel ok can be protected by
a mother of Runes but can be killed with a well timed response, and ofcourse enchanment hate like Disenchant or Wear/Tear.

Important to mention is that I evaluate it from an everage draw so i don´t take into account the rare nut draws cause everydeck can have them.
So it is highly possible since most Deck which play Sol don´t play counter that you can prevent this thing from being to anoying.

To mention another thing it don´t stop top because you don´t draw a card with it to often in your turn and it don´t effect the the libary manipulation
of it.

so yes its a good sideboard card but I would not overate it to highly.

Best regards Teveshszat

[Arsenal]

Important to mention is that I evaluate it from an everage draw so i don´t take into account the rare nut draws cause everydeck can have them.

Having 1 SoL in your opening 7 is not the nut draw, whereas people's responses of "well, AnT will just go LED, LED, Infernal ftw" seems to be.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

My apologies; tone doesn't really come through in text.

I agree with you, though. Turn 1-2 decks probably won't care about SotL, turn 3 decks will likely have an answer for it from splash-damage for Thalia/Teeg alone, and it will be situationally good against decks that can either find an answer for it (Omnitell) or have a solid backup plan (Elves). It's a fine addition to the Hate Bear suite, but it's not insta-win against anyone.

I think that IF this creature sees play and IF it makes an 12BearPost.dec possible, then only it'll be reasonable to tinker with storm's gameplan. But even now I see two possibilities: a move to more robust ANT-like builds with several removal main (like Slosh uses) that plan to win through the Spirit/Thalia/Teeg and the ones with even faster gameplan that wish to win before the cmc2 hatebear etb. This one is quite harder to achieve, as 50 % of games you won't be starting, meaning you got one and only turn to win before cat/legend is dropped.

I'm tempted to keep my Savannahs and build something with a turn2 "I hate this format" play, be it hatebear, RiP or SFM.

Hatebears hinder combo.
Teeg and Thalia hinder control.
SFM hinders aggro.
RiP hinders any Goyf.dec existing.

Sounds good?


EDIT:

I still haven't seen a decent answer to "what if you don't have DoN in hand/on board when SoL enters play?" gregtron said something about 7 card opener + 1 cantrip will get you there... I'm not so sure. And if the D&T/Maverick player has the Storm player mulling into DoN, that greatly favors the D&T/Maverick player before the game even begins.

They won't sb ONE DoN. Also, they won't sb ONLY DoN.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The "I have SotL and Thalia in my 75! You shall scoop!" idea is just hilarious narrow-minded

You may think it's funny now but when you face it at a tournament and you are at 0 life with 2 lands out and only a ponder cast against D&T, I'm sure you will change your opinion of what funny is. It's gonna be brutal for a while.



Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[gregtron]

I still haven't seen a decent answer to "what if you don't have DoN in hand/on board when SoL enters play?" gregtron said something about 7 card opener + 1 cantrip will get you there... I'm not so sure. And if the D&T/Maverick player has the Storm player mulling into DoN, that greatly favors the D&T/Maverick player before the game even begins.

I mean it's nothing new. D&T and Maverick have had had access to E-Tutor + Canonist for a long time, and Maverick has pretty much always been able to go mana dork into turn 2 Zenith for Teeg. ANT vs. Maverick will still be miserable, and ANT vs. D&T will still be a post-board coinflip.

And to answer your question specifically, my idea would be to grind (which ANT is more than capable of doing) with Therapy and Thoughtseize until I can find Massacre, Pyroclasm, or Burning Wish, and be glad they decided to cast SotL instead of Canonist. I'm not saying it won't be a thorn in my side if it happens, just that storm players who can't win through handicaps are not storm players for long.

[Arsenal]

As a Maverick player, if I'm able to force AnT to switch into grind-mode, I'm feeling pretty good about that game. And if this is postboard, I'm feeling even better.

[gregtron]

As a Maverick player, if I'm able to force AnT to switch into grind-mode, I'm feeling pretty good about that game. And if this is postboard, I'm feeling even better.

Oh definitely. But you don't even remotely need SotL to do so.

[Arsenal]

Oh definitely. But you don't even remotely need SotL to do so.

But SoL cuts off your ability to come back from a losing board state (via cantripping into answers). As a Maverick player, I never think I'm "set" just because I have a Mom + Canonist or Mom + other hatebear... and AnT's 12-16 draw spells is the reason why.

[Lemnear]

You may think it's funny now but when you face it at a tournament and you are at 0 life with 2 lands out and only a ponder cast against D&T, I'm sure you will change your opinion of what funny is. It's gonna be brutal for a while.



Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

I don't see a problem losing to a card in case x & y happens ... that's the nature of the game. I'm really curious what you think about the storm player in your scenario doing in the meanwhile and what the other 6 cards in his hand are at this point.

You can bet people would fire off their Ponders and Preordains for carddisadvantage to dig through their deck to either find a DoN or sculpt a setup to storm out.

Thalia is a threat. SotL is just an annoyance that MAY cast enough brakes onto storm that it and other creatures are able to win the race here.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

As a Maverick player, if I'm able to force AnT to switch into grind-mode, I'm feeling pretty good about that game. And if this is postboard, I'm feeling even better.

Depends on what you mean with "grinding". If you rely on one-for-one trades, then yes, Mav has advantage. If, on the other hand, you're more likely to meet one DoN after another that wipes away your whole "turn1 Mor, turn2 Thalia, turn3 hatecat, lolololol, gotcha!" team, or if there will be more and more Pyroclasms and Massacres and w/e else all over the meta, then I guess it won't be a grinding you'd love.

Also, I like how there's a red summon uncommon that eats the above board and leaves a 3/2 body behind. I guess that Slosh's idea to play Sulfur Elemental in ANT's sb was correct.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,


Having 1 SoL in your opening 7 is not the nut draw, whereas people's responses of "well, AnT will just go LED, LED, Infernal ftw" seems to be.

Ofcourse one Sol is not a nut draw never mentioned that. Would think for me a nut draw holds a combination of Vial,Thalia Sol, Mother a Wasteland a Port and a Plain or Fetchland.

Mfg Teveshszat

[Arsenal]

Depends on what you mean with "grinding". If you rely on one-for-one trades, then yes, Mav has advantage. If, on the other hand, you're more likely to meet one DoN after another that wipes away your whole "turn1 Mor, turn2 Thalia, turn3 hatecat, lolololol, gotcha!" team, or if there will be more and more Pyroclasms and Massacres and w/e else all over the meta, then I guess it won't be a grinding you'd love.

Also, I like how there's a red summon uncommon that eats the above board and leaves a 3/2 body behind. I guess that Slosh's idea to play Sulfur Elemental in ANT's sb was correct.

Yes, gregtron stated that AnT would switch into Therapy-Thoughtseize (AnT doesn't play Thoughtseize btw) grind mode, that's the definition of 1-for-1 that I was using. And again, if you don't have DoN in your hand when SoL enters play, you're just hoping that you naturally draw into one? And if you do open with DoN, and they drop Canonist/Teeg, then you do what, hope to get another one?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello,



Ofcourse one Sol is not a nut draw never mentioned that. Would think for me a nut draw holds a combination of Vial,Thalia Sol, Mother a Wasteland a Port and a Plain or Fetchland.

Mfg Teveshszat
Yep.


I'd love to build something like this:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Lolcat
3 Thalia
3 Gaddock
4 Cannonist
4 SFM
4 RiP
3-4 best equips

Where's your format now?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I was speaking of scenarios that include both on the table. It's even worse if one of D&T's lands is Port. Just the 2 bears being on the table gives them a 4 turn clock. That is scary. If they fear DoN they will just try to keep you off black mana.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Lemnear]

Yes, gregtron stated that AnT would switch into Therapy-Thoughtseize (AnT doesn't play Thoughtseize btw) grind mode, that's the definition of 1-for-1 that I was using. And again, if you don't have DoN in your hand when SoL enters play, you're just hoping that you naturally draw into one? And if you do open with DoN, and they drop Canonist/Teeg, then you do what, hope to get another one?

All the examples in this thread go iffy. I answered that question a few posts above (likely burried on the last page with the current posting speed in this thread atm)

[danyul]

This card makes me mad for exactly 1 reason: There is no foil printing of Virtue's Ruin.

[Lemnear]

I was speaking of scenarios that include both on the table. It's even worse if one of D&T's lands is Port. Just the 2 bears being on the table gives them a 4 turn clock. That is scary. If they fear DoN they will just try to keep you off black mana.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Thalia/cannonist + SotL? Ok, that means turn 3 and which was cast first? Allowing the opponent to storm out or giving him options to cantrip further is the question here. How should a deck keep storm off dropping fetchlands or Petals?

[Arsenal]

This card makes me mad for exactly 1 reason: There is no foil printing of Virtue's Ruin.

Now that is an answer that AnT should consider running more of in the board, not some 50/50 card like DoN. Ruin can be cast under a Teeg + Canonist + SoL board, and only Thalia makes it slightly worse, but still castable within a reasonable time frame.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,


Yep.


I'd love to build something like this:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Lolcat
3 Thalia
3 Gaddock
4 Cannonist
4 SFM
4 RiP
3-4 best equips

Where's your format now?

I think somewere between a deed and a good control Deck which can actually destroy this plan with Oring Sword and Massremoval.

the real anoyance is a deck which contains

3 Thalia
3 Gaddock
4 Cannonist
3 Sol
4xVial

and some combination of Wasteland, Crucible, Sinkhole, Maelstrompulse, vindicate and Port.
Maybe some Discard to make it harder and round it upo against Combo and Control.

Mfg Teveshszat

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yes, gregtron stated that AnT would switch into Therapy-Thoughtseize (AnT doesn't play Thoughtseize btw) grind mode, that's the definition of 1-for-1 that I was using. And again, if you don't have DoN in your hand when SoL enters play, you're just hoping that you naturally draw into one? And if you do open with DoN, and they drop Canonist/Teeg, then you do what, hope to get another one?

How many hatecats you plan to play? Eleven? For what it's worth, stop pretending that ANT is the only deck that needs to draw something, Mav also needs it, and it even doesn't have the luxury to cantrip into it.
If I'd be playing Storm again, I'd simply cantrip as long as it would be possible into the best possible cards, be it removal, protection or kill or w/e. With Mav, you're bound to your opening hand and then topdeck, topdeck, topdeck, with occasional SFM into the mix. Who will find the needed stuff sooner? Who will find it more often? The deck with library manipulation, or the one with none of it?

If this cat starts some trend or if it even would be a part of some new 8Bear, 12Bear or dare to say even 16Bear deck, then yeah, expect the Storm players to overload their sb with answers. It's not like we/they can't win against control/tempo now, as sometimes all that it takes is Duress the Stifle, then drop the rites->ToA for the win (e.g. Thresh effectively starts at eighteen-sixteen life), so they'll just imporve their only miserable matchup, the prison archetype.

3 Abrupt Decay - kills Counterbalance and bear
3-4 DoN - kill the bear
1-3 sweepers - to kill the bear. Pyroclasm is fast, Virtue's Ruin doesn't care of pro:insertcolor, Infest doesn't care of color
2-4 Chain of Vapor - to remove Leyline or beaver
3 Xantid Swarm - blue matchups
1-2 Thougtseize/IoK - combo, control

Subtract or add to count fifteen and you have a recipe for sb. I may be a deck builder.

[Arsenal]

How many hatecats you plan to play? Eleven? For what it's worth, stop pretending that ANT is the only deck that needs to draw something, Mav also needs it, and it even doesn't have the luxury to cantrip into it.
If I'd be playing Storm again, I'd simply cantrip as long as it would be possible into the best possible cards, be it removal, protection or kill or w/e. With Mav, you're bound to your opening hand and then topdeck, topdeck, topdeck, with occasional SFM into the mix. Who will find the needed stuff sooner? Who will find it more often? The deck with library manipulation, or the one with none of it?

If this cat starts some trend or if it even would be a part of some new 8Bear, 12Bear or dare to say even 16Bear deck, then yeah, expect the Storm players to overload their sb with answers. It's not like we/they can't win against control/tempo now, as sometimes all that it takes is Duress the Stifle, then drop the rites->ToA for the win (e.g. Thresh effectively starts at eighteen-sixteen life), so they'll just imporve their only miserable matchup, the prison archetype.

3 Abrupt Decay - kills Counterbalance and bear
3-4 DoN - kill the bear
1-3 sweepers - to kill the bear. Pyroclasm is fast, Virtue's Ruin doesn't care of pro:insertcolor, Infest doesn't care of color
2-4 Chain of Vapor - to remove Leyline or beaver
3 Xantid Swarm - blue matchups
1-2 Thougtseize/IoK - combo, control

Subtract or add to count fifteen and you have a recipe for sb. I may be a deck builder.

I plan on playing 4 Thalia, 4 SoL, 1 Teeg (+4 GSZ) maindeck, so 9-13 hatebears maindeck. Postboard, I have 2 E Tutors, 2 Canonist + 1 Teeg. So postboard, I'll have 4 Thalia, 4 SoL, 2 Teeg, 2 Canonist, 2 E Tutor (to help find SoL and/or Canonist) and 4 GSZ (to help find my 2 Teeg), so 12-28 hatebears postboard.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

...so 12-28 hatebears postboard.
Lotto machine much? This was some creative maths...

What if I plan to play 20 cantrips (including Portent) to draw into 1-of-4 DoN, Clasm, Ruin, Sulfur Elemental and Drop of Honey on turn 1? It's not like no Storm player ever won against DnT before the lolcat, and it's not that powerful to improve the win percentage by say 10 %.

Also, to return to more specific case we've seen right in this thread, I'm still questioning the power behind "in resp to 2nd CRit, I Vial in my 3/1 Spirit", but as you weren't the one who brought this, I'll let it t o sleep.

BtW, I guess that when lolcat hates the Storm outta format, a dedicated board control can make return. It'll be pretty epic to fight through 4-8 StPs, several Wraths and EEs, or through Innocent Blood and Deeds, or w/e; even Pox maybe and NoSB.

But all this stuff aside, the cat is strong and original, and I like it, but it's not like the end of Brainstorming is anywhere near. If this catches up (which I doubt, it's like that True-Name Card everybody speaks about, yet I never seen one IRL), I wil tinker with my Thresh to specifically beat those new DnTbuilds.
I guess that upping the Bolt count to eight (and of course, it'll be Forked Bolt) and use more Snares again, use Rough main, w/e.

[Megadeus]

It is weird to me how people who are fans of a certain deck in this game that defend their deck as if it a sports team. This is a game of thoughtfulness and strategy and people just are in denial (similar to sports fans) about a card that is printed that is very powerful vs their strategy. Why can't people just admit that the card is a powerful hoser vs their strategy? When TNN and RIP saw a lot of play, I was more than willing to admit that my 4 Color Loam deck was terribly positioned in the meta. Hell even the most well known player (Hoogland) knew it too.

[Arsenal]

Sorry, meant 12-20. Not 28.

4 Thalia + 4 SoL + 2 Canonist + 2 Teeg = 12.

4 Thalia + 6 SoL (2 E Tutor) + 4 Canonist (2 E Tutor) + 6 Teeg (4 GSZ) = 20.

[Poron]

GSZ + Thalia?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Reading comprehension ftw.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Arsenal]

GSZ + Thalia?

What?

[Poron]

looks pretty anti-sinergic unless the decks has mana dorks. 4cc is the least at that point

[Arsenal]

looks pretty anti-sinergic unless the decks has mana dorks. 4cc is the least at that point

I don't think you've been following Maverick if you think Thalia and GSZ shouldn't be played in the same deck.

[Poron]

in effect, I've never been liking Maverick. I always found it out of gas (unless you play Sylvan Library that is out of question with this new addition)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Aaaand...Ignored.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Arsenal]

Infinite GSZ and KotR tutorable 20/20 dudes is the very definition of gas.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

It is weird to me how people who are fans of a certain deck in this game that defend their deck as if it a sports team. This is a game of thoughtfulness and strategy and people just are in denial (similar to sports fans) about a card that is printed that is very powerful vs their strategy. Why can't people just admit that the card is a powerful hoser vs their strategy? When TNN and RIP saw a lot of play, I was more than willing to admit that my 4 Color Loam deck was terribly positioned in the meta. Hell even the most well known player (Hoogland) knew it too.

Maybe we're just not fainting in horror over a 3/1 dude? Moreover when it's the worst of all hatebears?

Btw, do you know that there are some fundamental rules in this game? E.g. playing one land per turn?
Basically your 40HateBears20Lands.dec will still have only ONE bear out on turn2. Unless there's MoR/Safekeeper in play, the only thing a Storm player needs is ONE removal; if it's DoN, even better, as then he doesn't care of MoR. And even if he doesn't have removal:
- Teeg only prevents win, so you may cantrip or w/e; he might be by-passed by LED+IT->removal (but you need PiF in hand to win from there)
- Thalia doesn't stop neither victory nor cantrips (it just makes it harder to play them), so one may still cantrip into removal. With a good hand you may even win through Thalia, it's just a question of how many CRits/RoFs you'll draw
- Cannonist stops win and hinders cantrips, (s)he also doesn't die to single DoN. As such, it is "you lose" card unless Stormer is able to sculpt a hand with several Petals/LEDs and a wincon, maybe EtW.
- Lolcat only stops cantrips, so it doesn't do anything if the Storm dude doesn't need to cantrip. E.g. when he already played the 2nd CRit and is about to kill via AdN or Pif.

And all this doesn't even take Burning Wish into account.

Of the four bears, two die to DoN (which will get rid of all Moms, too), and the Lolcat is clearly the most situational.

Also, Virtue's Ruin is a WoG and there's no way how you may stop that turn1 Lotus Petal so that the Storm guy has an access to four mana later in the game, after he first fetches for basic Island to play as many cantrips as possible, before he searches [insert duals here] to wash away the face of the battleground.

And good luck with the 16 bears, the first fair deck will stomp your x/1s and x/2s. But that's metametametagaming...

[Lemnear]

It is weird to me how people who are fans of a certain deck in this game that defend their deck as if it a sports team. This is a game of thoughtfulness and strategy and people just are in denial (similar to sports fans) about a card that is printed that is very powerful vs their strategy. Why can't people just admit that the card is a powerful hoser vs their strategy? When TNN and RIP saw a lot of play, I was more than willing to admit that my 4 Color Loam deck was terribly positioned in the meta. Hell even the most well known player (Hoogland) knew it too.

There was a bold claim that TES and ANT lose to decks with SotL and especially if SotL is vialed in as a response to a Ritual.

I still have no clue, nor got an answer how StoL affects the "strategy" of chaining mana into a Wish/Infernal Tutor into AN/PiF.

Does SotL affect the cantrips that are there to create a redundancy? Sure. Will the Spirit prevent Probes casted turn 1 for free? No. Does it prevent Ponder from digging for removal? No. Does SotL shit on Brainstorm? Yeah ... So that means that the card is only REALLY good against 4 cards in ANT/TES?! Render me not impressed...

There is no need to defend storm here, as SotL has a much lesser impact on storms STRATEGY than Thalia. Would be nice if anyone would bother to think about the counterarguments we brought up instead of repeating "ZOMG! SotL kills Storm!"

[Arsenal]

Maybe we're just not fainting in horror over a 3/1 dude? Moreover when it's the worst of all hatebears?

Btw, do you know that there are some fundamental rules in this game? E.g. playing one land per turn?
Basically your 40HateBears20Lands.dec will still have only ONE bear out on turn2. Unless there's MoR/Safekeeper in play, the only thing a Storm player needs is ONE removal; if it's DoN, even better, as then he doesn't care of MoR. And even if he doesn't have removal:
- Teeg only prevents win, so you may cantrip or w/e; he might be by-passed by LED+IT->removal (but you need PiF in hand to win from there)
- Thalia doesn't stop neither victory nor cantrips (it just makes it harder to play them), so one may still cantrip into removal. With a good hand you may even win through Thalia, it's just a question of how many CRits/RoFs you'll draw
- Cannonist stops win and hinders cantrips, (s)he also doesn't die to single DoN. As such, it is "you lose" card unless Stormer is able to sculpt a hand with several Petals/LEDs and a wincon, maybe EtW.
- Lolcat only stops cantrips, so it doesn't do anything if the Storm dude doesn't need to cantrip. E.g. when he already played the 2nd CRit and is about to kill via AdN or Pif.

And all this doesn't even take Burning Wish into account.

Of the four bears, two die to DoN (which will get rid of all Moms, too), and the Lolcat is clearly the most situational.

Also, Virtue's Ruin is a WoG and there's no way how you may stop that turn1 Lotus Petal so that the Storm guy has an access to four mana later in the game, after he first fetches for basic Island to play as many cantrips as possible, before he searches [insert duals here] to wash away the face of the battleground.

And good luck with the 16 bears, the first fair deck will stomp your x/1s and x/2s. But that's metametametagaming...

Fundamental rules of the game... like the attack step? I'm not understanding why you have such a nonchalant attitude of a board with hatebears and you having no removal in hand. If I have hatebears and you have no removal, it very much is a big deal for you. You act like you can just shrug your shoulders and not care about the fact that you're taking 4-5 points per turn and you have no removal in hand.

Again, how are you playing cantrips through SoL? How are you cantripping with your basic Island when SoL is out? I've asked this twice, and you haven't answered. I want to know how you're able to find your silver bullets answers when you didn't open with them/naturally draw them.

Also, I was beating fair decks like RUG Delver and Stoneblade just fine (well, not so much post-TNN, but that has more to do with TNN and less to do with my creature suite). Forked Bolt in RUG Delver has fallen drastically out of favor for stuff like Gitaxian Probe, so I don't really need to worry too much. And those 8 cantrips to find their 4 Bolts? Hmm, I heard SoL is good versus that.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You are correct in that Thalia is better against storms main gameplan, but denying that SoL is good against you is a ridiculous notion. It attacks your secondary plan of cantripping into chaining mana into a wish/it into AN/PiF, which is where the deck starts out in non-nut draws. Yeah, you will probably rattle a probe and another cantrip off before the kitty or Thalia comes down, but they both effectively end that strategy immediately as storm can't afford pondering @ 2 mana. It slows you down and any decent clock often gets the job done. Saying that SoL affects only 4 cards in storm is wrong. After a SoL hits the field, Spy Network starts competing for ponder and probes slots. No one plays Spy Network.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Arsenal]

It sounds like these Storm players are misevaluating the role of SoL in Maverick. SoL isn't there to insta-win versus Storm as that isn't what Maverick is capable of. SoL, like the other hatebears, is there to (a.) slow Storm down and make them find an answer to it or to sculpt an alternate avenue of winning and (b.) to beat face (which SoL does better than any other hatebear). Maverick is a grinder, Maverick wants you to play the game on their terms. If you're spending turns 1-for-1ing Maverick as gregtron suggested AnT do, Maverick is getting there. If you're spending turns and spending 2 mana for Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain in order to find your Abrupt Decay for Thalia, Maverick is getting there. If you're forced to do something you normally wouldn't want to do with AnT because Maverick is just naturally playing Magic (tapping mana for a dude, turning dudes sideways), Maverick is getting there.

If Maverick is getting there before SoL, then I fail to understand why Maverick + SoL would make AnT better? Why AnT players are saying "DoN, no big deal" when the matchup often times is far more complicated than that? Why Bed Decks Player states that AnT can get there versus Maverick's hatebears without removal because there are other avenues of winning?

[davelin]

Again, how are you playing cantrips through SoL? How are you cantripping with your basic Island when SoL is out? I've asked this twice, and you haven't answered. I want to know how you're able to find your silver bullets answers when you didn't open with them/naturally draw them.

Cast Ponder, see DoN/Massacre is the third card down, place it first. SoL certainly slows storm down, but cantrips aren't completely useless against her.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Fundamental rules of the game... like the attack step? I'm not understanding why you have such a nonchalant attitude of a board with hatebears and you having no removal in hand. If I have hatebears and you have no removal, it very much is a big deal for you. You act like you can just shrug your shoulders and not care about the fact that you're taking 4-5 points per turn and you have no removal in hand.
Dude, the fundamental rule I wrote about is that you may play only one land per turn.

So, I got a math exercise for you:

With one land played per turn, you will have exactly TWO lands on turn2
With exactly TWO lands in play, how many hatebears of cmc2 you may play on turn2? Is it ONE?
With exactly ONE hatebear in play, how many removal do I need? Is it ONE?

This has nothing to do with the attack step. This is about your ONE hatebear against my ONE removal. Do you understand what I write or do you need another help?



Again, how are you playing cantrips through SoL? How are you cantripping with your basic Island when SoL is out? I've asked this twice, and you haven't answered. I want to know how you're able to find your silver bullets answers when you didn't open with them/naturally draw them.
Learn to read, child. I wrote I'll cantrip as long as possible. I guess that everyone else on this forum would understand that it means "unless the hatecat prevents me from further cantripping".



Also, I was beating fair decks like RUG Delver and Stoneblade just fine (well, not so much post-TNN, but that has more to do with TNN and less to do with my creature suite). Forked Bolt in RUG Delver has fallen drastically out of favor for stuff like Gitaxian Probe, so I don't really need to worry too much. And those 8 cantrips to find their 4 Bolts? Hmm, I heard SoL is good versus that.
Well, maybe people start to play more removal than just one mere Forked Bolt? What exactly in a sentence "I guess that upping the Bolt count to eight (and of course, it'll be Forked Bolt) and use more Snares again, use Rough main, w/e." you didn't understand? You never heard of metagaming?



If Maverick is getting there before SoL, then I fail to understand why Maverick + SoL would make AnT better? Why AnT players are saying "DoN, no big deal" when the matchup often times is far more complicated than that? Why Bed Decks Player states that AnT can get there versus Maverick's hatebears without removal because there are other avenues of winning?
I never wrote I'll get there without removal. I wrote that I need only ONE removal against your only ONE hatebear.
You are idiot.

[Arsenal]

Dude, the fundamental rule I wrote about is that you may play only one land per turn.

So, I got a math exercise for you:

With one land played per turn, you will have exactly TWO lands on turn2
With exactly TWO lands in play, how many hatebears of cmc2 you may play on turn2? Is it ONE?
With exactly ONE hatebear in play, how many removal do I need? Is it ONE?

This has nothing to do with the attack step. This is about your ONE hatebear against my ONE removal. Do you understand what I write or do you need another help?

And if your ONE removal is DoN, because you have such a boner over it, and my ONE hatebear is Teeg/Canonist? Then what?


Learn to read, child. I wrote I'll cantrip as long as possible. I guess that everyone else on this forum would understand that it means "unless the hatecat prevents me from further cantripping".

Cool, so on the draw you've cantripped once. On the play, maybe twice? In that time, what have I been doing?


Well, maybe people start to play more removal than just one mere Forked Bolt? What exactly in a sentence "I guess that upping the Bolt count to eight (and of course, it'll be Forked Bolt) and use more Snares again, use Rough main, w/e." you didn't understand? You never heard of metagaming?

Metagaming? What's that? Oh, you mean your 8 Bolt, Rough/Tumble main deck RUG Delver pile getting raped by combo decks, sure.


I never wrote I'll get there without removal. I wrote that I need only ONE removal against your only ONE hatebear.
You are idiot.

You posted this about not having removal, but being able to navigate around the hatebears:


And even if he doesn't have removal:
- Teeg only prevents win, so you may cantrip or w/e; he might be by-passed by LED+IT->removal (but you need PiF in hand to win from there)
- Thalia doesn't stop neither victory nor cantrips (it just makes it harder to play them), so one may still cantrip into removal. With a good hand you may even win through Thalia, it's just a question of how many CRits/RoFs you'll draw
- Cannonist stops win and hinders cantrips, (s)he also doesn't die to single DoN. As such, it is "you lose" card unless Stormer is able to sculpt a hand with several Petals/LEDs and a wincon, maybe EtW.
- Lolcat only stops cantrips, so it doesn't do anything if the Storm dude doesn't need to cantrip. E.g. when he already played the 2nd CRit and is about to kill via AdN or Pif.

[from Cairo]

(hatecat)


Vial a 3/1 cat


the kitty

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151341&d=1390194288%29?

What am I missing?

[Arsenal]

[IMG]removedIMG]

What am I missing?

Blade of the Sixth Pride. A 2cmc 3/1 dude. A cat, kitten.

[Zombie]

Again, how are you playing cantrips through SoL? How are you cantripping with your basic Island when SoL is out? I've asked this twice, and you haven't answered. I want to know how you're able to find your silver bullets answers when you didn't open with them/naturally draw them.

I actually had to reread Ponder to grok it, but you can still look at the top three cards, rearrange them, and shuffle them. It's just card disadvantage. But you can dig for removal somewhat. Applies to Preordain just the same, it's just Brainstorm that's mega-boned.

[PirateKing]

What am I missing?

Also don't forget "the" isn't a word anymore. That is a thing now.

[TsumiBand]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151341&d=1390194288%29?

What am I missing?

Blade - a cat, a female cat
Hate - the thing that shuts you down
Bear - two power and two toughness
Cat - a 3/1 2-drop guy

Draw - it's only once per turn
Vial - the card that drops the cat
Tear - it answers Dread of Night

Which will bring us back to Spirit of the Labyrinth - HATE CAT

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MGNDpiT-ci8/UjgjZEbnNDI/AAAAAAAAAQQ/-KkSZddCCdg/s640/gif-julie-andrews-movies-the-sound-of-music-Favim_com-374130.gif

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I really love the art on this.

EDIT: Tsumi, you are silly.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Bed Decks Palyer]

And if your ONE removal is DoN, because you have such a boner over it, and my ONE hatebear is Teeg/Canonist? Then what?
Against Teeg:
DRit, Drit, CRit, Crit, LED, IT, sac LED (drop PiF into gy) find CoV, return Teeg, flashback Pif, flashback rites, IT, ToA.

Against Cannonist:
Cantrip into removal.

Anything else you'd love to learn about Storm decks?



Cool, so on the draw you've cantripped once. On the play, maybe twice?
Cool, and now you have your 3/1 lolcat you have such a boner over it, and on my turn I'll go Drit, Drit, Drit, Drit, Drit, Drit, Drit, Drit, Drit, Drit, AdN, make love to you in ear.
That's why I'm completely nonchalant about it's 3/1 stats, for what it's worth, it could be 10/1 first strike trample flying soulshift sodaproof and have a tape-recorder up its nose, as long as it does nothing to stop ToA for twenty, I don't care.



Metagaming? What's that? Oh, you mean your 8 Bolt, Rough/Tumble main deck RUG Delver pile getting raped by combo decks, sure.
Oh, but now you're trolling.
I told you that there are ways how to improve Thresh so that it has better game against creature decks and you bring another straw man of "raped by combo". Are you serious? Why on earth should a deck with seven gorillion of counterspells lose to combo? Or do you mean that the only possible deck now on is your 3/1 cat wet fantasy? If this shitty creature will be prevalent, I'll adjust. If combo will be prevalent, I'll adjust. What's so amazing about this idea that you need to read it four times and still not understand it?




You posted this about not having removal, but being able to navigate around the hatebears:
How to win through hatebears if you don't have removal in hand:

Teeg:
Cantrip/BW into removal. If this fails, play this sequence: Drit, Crit, LED, IT (sac LED, drop PiF), find Karakas/Chain, flashback PiF and rites, IT, ToA.
The more rites you have the better.

Thalia:
Cantrip/BW into removal. If this fails, play Petals and LEDS, then on your next turn play as many CRits as possible, IT into PiF/AdN, win.
The more rites you have the better.

Cannonist:
Cantrip/BW into removal. If this fails, sculpt hand and play Petals and LEDS, then EtW/ToA. (ToA might not be enough, though.)
The more rites you have the better.

Lolcat:
Simply play the sequence of Drit, Crit, LED, LP, IT (sac LED), depending on situation find PiF/AdN and win from there.
The more rites you have the better.

[Lemnear]

I actually had to reread Ponder to grok it, but you can still look at the top three cards, rearrange them, and shuffle them. It's just card disadvantage. But you can dig for removal somewhat. Applies to Preordain just the same, it's just Brainstorm that's mega-boned.

Exactly! If you add the fact that you'll rarely catch a Probe with the Spirit thanks to being a free cast turn 1, I consider the impact mediocre

[TsumiBand]

EDIT: Tsumi, you are silly.


Sigged. Also, thanks for noticing. :cool:

[Arsenal]

I actually had to reread Ponder to grok it, but you can still look at the top three cards, rearrange them, and shuffle them. It's just card disadvantage. But you can dig for removal somewhat. Applies to Preordain just the same, it's just Brainstorm that's mega-boned.

I realize that, but my point before was that if Maverick is forcing AnT to spend it's turn digging for it's answer to hatebear X, and if it's card disadvantage on top of it, Maverick is winning that battle. If Maverick is forcing AnT to do something it doesn't naturally want to do (I don't think AnT wants to naturally dig for cards like Abrupt Decay), to it's own detriment at that (mana inefficient dig with Thalia, card disadvantage selection with SoL, etc), Maverick is winning that battle. That's why I'm not understanding the nonchalant, no big deal attitude of so many people in here.

EDIT: Lol at Bed Decks Player, okay, so you'll have the exact 7 cards you need every time I drop a hatebear, got it (and lol at keeping a no lander in your Teeg example, sure buddy). And if you're running 8 Bolts and Rough main in RUG Delver, what are you cutting to make room? Cantrips, counters or threats? You're not running a gazllion counterspells if you're running 8 Bolt and 1-4 copies of Rough/Tumble.

[Lemnear]

I realize that, but my point before was that if Maverick is forcing AnT to spend it's turn digging for it's answer to hatebear X, and if it's card disadvantage on top of it, Maverick is winning that battle. If Maverick is forcing AnT to do something it doesn't naturally want to do (I don't think AnT wants to naturally dig for cards like Abrupt Decay), to it's own detriment at that (mana inefficient dig with Thalia, card disadvantage selection with SoL, etc), Maverick is winning that battle. That's why I'm not understanding the nonchalant, no big deal attitude of so many people in here.

EDIT: Lol at Bed Decks Player, okay, so you'll have the exact 7 cards you need every time I drop a hatebear, got it. And if you're running 8 Bolts and Rough main in RUG Delver, what are you cutting to make room? Cantrips, counters or threats? You're not running a gazllion counterspells if you're running 8 Bolt and 1-4 copies of Rough/Tumble.

As BDP mentioned, ANT can afford to spend 1-2 cards to deal with a hatebear as it plays such a strong mana acceleration, therefore the talk about 1-for-1 trades with a focus on Thalia/Cannonist. The point is that cantripping into DoN/etc rather than into business with a SotL on the horizon is pointless and won't happen as the new hatebear does not interrupt the mana + Tutor/Wish Strategy

[Will_L]

Turn 1: Thoughtseize

Turn 2: Spirit of the Labyrinth

That seems good against Storm.

Bad Deck Player you cried for, like, 2 pages about never being able to win with Storm and rage-selling it in the Ad Nauseum thread... I have no idea why you're defending it so vehemently now...

[Arsenal]

Against Teeg:
DRit, Drit, CRit, Crit, LED, IT, sac LED (drop PiF into gy) find CoV, return Teeg, flashback Pif, flashback rites, IT, ToA.

This is the best, honestly. The fact that you keep landless hands (nevermind how you're able to cast the inital DRit... Lotus Petal?) and the fact that you have the exact cards you need in order to beat Teeg without your Teeg removal is just awesome.

[joemauer]

This new hate kitty is being overrated as a Storm hater. It is really only nuts versus Time Spiral decks(in regards to Storm decks).

If anything this guy will make the Storm versus DnT matchup easier for the Storm player. You see some kid piloting DnT will think he has won the game with his hand full of Thalias and SoL against a TES player. The TES player will then do one of two things: a) win on turn one or b) bounce a Thalia eot and proceed to win despite three SoLs being in play.

[Arsenal]

This new hate kitty is being overrated as a Storm hater. It is really only nuts versus Time Spiral decks(in regards to Storm decks).

If anything this guy will make the Storm versus DnT matchup easier for the Storm player. You see some kid piloting DnT will think he has won the game with his hand full of Thalias and SoL against a TES player. The TES player will then do one of two things: a) win on turn one or b) bounce a Thalia eot and proceed to win despite three SoLs being in play.

I agree, that's why I've specifically said "AnT" each time in my posts. I apologize if that was unclear, but I wasn't referring to TES, just AnT. TES has a much better chance of going off turn 1 than AnT does, and TES always runs Burning Wish -> answer whereas many AnT builds don't run Burning Wish at all.

[Looooooooo]

Cannonist:
Cantrip/BW into removal. If this fails, sculpt hand and play Petals and LEDS, then EtW/ToA. (ToA might not be enough, though.)
The more rites you have the better.

Lol really?

- L

[Megadeus]

This guy comes down, slows your drawing ability, and while you attempt to find an answer another bear comes down. That is how you end up falling behind and not having enough answers. Sure you can have a nut hand, but I can I'm theory have all of the things without having to dig for them too. It just doesn't happen 90% of the time

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I realize that, but my point before was that if Maverick is forcing AnT to spend it's turn digging for it's answer to hatebear X, and if it's card disadvantage on top of it, Maverick is winning that battle. If Maverick is forcing AnT to do something it doesn't naturally want to do (I don't think AnT wants to naturally dig for cards like Abrupt Decay), to it's own detriment at that (mana inefficient dig with Thalia, card disadvantage selection with SoL, etc), Maverick is winning that battle. That's why I'm not understanding the nonchalant, no big deal attitude of so many people in here.
For the last time: you will have exactly ONE hatebear on turn2, so I need exactly ONE removal for the hatebear. Of all the possible hatebears, lolcat is the worst, while Cannonist/Thalia is the most powerful.




EDIT: Lol at Bed Decks Player, okay, so you'll have the exact 7 cards you need every time I drop a hatebear, got it (and lol at keeping a no lander in your Teeg example, sure buddy). And if you're running 8 Bolts and Rough main in RUG Delver, what are you cutting to make room? Cantrips, counters or threats? You're not running a gazllion counterspells if you're running 8 Bolt and 1-4 copies of Rough/Tumble.
What's your trouble? Are you new to the format and have never seen combo win on turn2 or what? The only ONE card I need is the only ONE removal for your bear. What's so difficult to understand about it? You will have TWO lands on turn2 which will allow you to play exactly ONE cmc2 hatebear and my duty is to have exactly ONE removal for the said bear. As half of those bears are x/1 white creatures, my best bet is DoN, esp. when it might be played preemptively and that it takes care of any number of Thalias, Lolcats and MoRs, unless you play Celestial Crusader in response, which I doubt you'll be able to, as you don't play Black Lotus, do you? Oh, you may Disenchant it! I admit, I'm screwed.


Qty Name
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
//\\
// Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
4 Nimble Mongoose
3-4 Tarmogoyf
//\\
// Spells
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3-4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1-2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Forked Bolt
0-1 Rough/Tumble
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Rough/Tumble
3 Submerge
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Artifact Mutation
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfur Elemental


Something like this. Depends on your meta, you know?
Btw, saying that Thresh with three Froked Bolts loses to combo is pretty stupid, it's like saying UW Miracles lose to combo because of the three Termini.



Turn 1: Thoughtseize

Turn 2: Spirit of the Labyrinth

That seems good against Storm.
Yep. Btw, How is it any different from turn1 TS, turn2 Thalia/Cannonist/Sculler? I guess that ANT is a DTB for a reason, while Deadguy Ale isn't.




Bad Deck Player you cried for, like, 2 pages about never being able to win with Storm and rage-selling it in the Ad Nauseum thread... I have no idea why you're defending it so vehemently now...
My (in)ability to win with said deck has nothing to do with power of Lolcat. (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem) Oh, and I played the deck for years before joining Source, so don't make some opinions on my results with ANT. Btw, I didn't rage-sell the deck, I decided to sell all my cards and keep just one deck, Thresh, becasue I like Wooded Foothills. Also, I'm not defending power of ANT, I'm just saying that Lolcat is the weakest hatebear.
You may make fun of me and my opinions, but listen to Lemnear. Or, even better: just fuck off.



This is the best, honestly. The fact that you keep landless hands (nevermind how you're able to cast the inital DRit... Lotus Petal?) and
Of course you used lands to pay for the spells. Surprising, isn't it? I didn't know I need to explicitly write it.



the fact that you have the exact cards you need in order to beat Teeg without your Teeg removal is just awesome.
It's pretty stupid to answer "but this can be done only with the cards with which it can be done."

You're troll.



This guy comes down, slows your drawing ability, and while you attempt to find an answer another bear comes down. That is how you end up falling behind and not having enough answers. Sure you can have a nut hand, but I can I'm theory have all of the things without having to dig for them too. It just doesn't happen 90% of the time
And? I would say that DoN solves this, as it kills Thalia, Lolcat and Mor at once, so you may just concentrate on the real troublemakers (Teeg and esp. Cannonist), but as I don't know anything about Storm and format, I'll just gtfo.

Arsenal, preorder your cats. This is TemporalMastery Affair again, but I'm fine with it. Just don't pretend you understand how storm works.

[Arsenal]

Why do you refuse to read my posts? For science?

You stated that you'll just need a single removal spell for my single hatebear. I then posed a situation where you've drawn your single removal spell and I've resolved my single hatebear, and you still are not able to win from that position unless you drew into the absolute nut. Sure, your god hands will beat my single hatebear hands. Congrats.

And lol at me not understanding how Storm works. This is coming from the guy who thinks he'll be able to, what was it? Ah yes:


Thalia:
Cantrip/BW into removal. If this fails, play Petals and LEDS, then on your next turn play as many CRits as possible, IT into PiF/AdN, win.
The more rites you have the better.

Good luck with that line of play, across two turns no less, through a Thalia.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Why do you refuse to read my posts? For science?

You stated that you'll just need a single removal spell for my single hatebear. I then posed a situation where you've drawn your single removal spell and I've resolved my single hatebear, and you still are not able to win from that position unless you drew into the absolute nut. Sure, your god hands will beat my single hatebear hands. Congrats.

Have you ever looked up any ANT decklist? Have you ever played against it? The deck alone is absolute nuts. It's just fast mana, search and wincons. You lay down your stupid 3/1 cat on turn2 and then on my next turn I'll win even without removal.

Now, as the game goes longer, you will have more hatebears and maybe more dangerous ones: Thalia, Teeg and Cannonist. (Btw, I never knew DnT plays Teeg, but w/e; in your fantasy land everything is possible.) That's where ANT losses (at leat pre-board), unless it draws/cantrips/wishes into sweeper or finds a way how to circumvent the bears: for the latter part, that's what my examples were about (and you asked for those examples, so I provided them, it's not my trouble that they work only when they work.)

Dread of Night, believe it or not, answers Thalia, MoR and Lolcat. Laying down DoN solves 1/2 of your hatebears and the other ones are slowed down. With 1/1 Teeg in play I may do everything I wish to do excpet for winning. But I'll win after I cantrip/BW into removal, or after I'll do the PiF/IT/Karakas trick. With 1/1 Cannonist I can't win and my digging abilities are worsened. Moreover, you may play a second one, because it's non-legendary, unlike Teeg. (You kow Teeg and Thalia are legends, don't you?) So a resolved DoN (a one mana enchantment; it can't get any cheaper, unless we're talking about phyrexian mana) solves one half of your important creatures (I don't care of Miriam Crushader or w/e else), kills MoR who protects the remaining half of your bear enclosure and buys me time to search/BW/naturally draw Virtue's Ruin Clasm, Infest, 2nd DoN or whatever else.

If you fail to see that lolcat is the worst of all hatebears, w/e.





And lol at me not understanding how Storm works. This is coming from the guy who thinks he'll be able to, what was it? Ah yes:


Thalia:
Cantrip/BW into removal. If this fails, play Petals and LEDS, then on your next turn play as many CRits as possible, IT into PiF/AdN, win.
The more rites you have the better.

Good luck with that line of play, across two turns no less, through a Thalia.
Yep, that's how I won through Thalia on turn3. Any other questions?

[danyul]

The card is interesting. This discussion? Not so much.

You guys should build these on Cockatrice and cardfitebattle each other and stream that instead. That seems like more fun.

[ThediscoPower]

Yep. Btw, How is it any different from turn1 TS, turn2 Thalia/Cannonist/Sculler? I guess that ANT is a FORMER DTB for a reason, while Deadguy Ale isn't.


there. Fixed that for you.

[Arsenal]

Bed Decks Player, I've stated numerous times in this thread that I'm a Maverick player. In fact, I even posted a breakdown of my theoretical creature suite that you even commented on. I hate to break it to you, but Maverick does run Teeg, often times maindeck, and runs more sideboard. I'm not living in a fantasy land, maybe you just need to learn how to read and retain?

EDIT: I think this will give Maverick the critical mass needed to combat blue decks like combo. You do not think it'll do anything. Fine.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Bed Decks Player, I've stated numerous times in this thread that I'm a Maverick player. In fact, I even posted a breakdown of my theoretical creature suite that you even commented on. I hate to break it to you, but Maverick does run Teeg, often times maindeck, and runs more sideboard. I'm not living in a fantasy land, maybe you just need to learn how to read and retain?
Other people were thinking about usage of the cat in DnT.
Also, reading your posts, one would think that Maverick is the only DTB of Legacy. How come we don't see much more of Mav in Top8s? Guess what - it's not the best deck. Every deck might win and every deck might lose. You act like if an honour of your lady is in danger, but admit it: Maverick simply can't win everything and this 3/1 changes nothing about it.

You're troll. You asked for the examples how to win through hatebears and when I provided them, you attacked me and you even went so far to nitpick the fact that I didn't write down lands (every sane player understands that those are a prerequisite; sorry I didn't knew you need to see them listed), when I provided the working examples, you were carping because these examples work, etc. etc. I won't lose my time arguing with you.

Just a small note: you know nothing about my lifetime record with ANT. Moreover, even if I suck at playing it, this means nothing about its power. You really think that one hatebear stops that deck? Lol...


Troll elsewhere.



EDIT: I think this will give Maverick the critical mass needed to combat blue decks like combo. You do not think it'll do anything. Fine.
What's that? Oh, you mean your 16 bears main deck Mav pile getting raped by Jund decks, sure.

[lavafrogg]

This new hate kitty is being overrated as a Storm hater. It is really only nuts versus Time Spiral decks(in regards to Storm decks).

If anything this guy will make the Storm versus DnT matchup easier for the Storm player. You see some kid piloting DnT will think he has won the game with his hand full of Thalias and SoL against a TES player. The TES player will then do one of two things: a) win on turn one or b) bounce a Thalia eot and proceed to win despite three SoLs being in play.

It is just another brick in the wall. I think it is slightly better than canonist but worse than Thalia. It is not the end all be all but it will slow you down and swing for three.

If you think you win turn 1/2 every game you obviously just shouldn't play the cantrips at all.

[pointicus]

Im pretty excited for spirit, while it won't replace thalia or cannonist by any means, it should work well alongside them, and unlike cannonist is probably going to be played in the MD in some number rather than SB. That and its a hatebear that has 3 power which is pretty nice.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Guess what: ANT can beat thalia/hatebears decks, which on the other hand in a vacuum are advantaged (no storm player would play against a thalia instead a grizzly).

- L
I'd rather sit across triple Lolcat before one Thalia/Teeg/Cannonist all day everyday.

Also, speaking of hypothermical board states and such, may I know that hp Über Maverück list that has space for 16 bears AND 4 KotRs AND 4 Zeniths AND SFM plus his targets AND Vials AND StPs plus w/e is played in the deck AND the lands? I'm curious to see that list and I'm also curious if it adds to 60 cards.

[Barook]

Do I really have to dig through 6 pages of stupid arguments just to find out who started this "SoL is great vs Storm" argument?

Both Thalia and Canonist are much better since they can stop the nuts, unlike SoL.

From my experience, Maverick is pretty bad when it's on the draw against Storm. Without T1 disruption, they are likely going to gib you on their T2 before you can get your hatebear online.

SoL is about hosing cantrip-heavy strategies and Elves. Storm is less affected by it.

[Lemnear]

Do I really have to dig through 6 pages of stupid arguments just to find out who started this "SoL is great vs Storm" argument?

Both Thalia and Canonist are much better since they can stop the nuts, unlike SoL.

From my experience, Maverick is pretty bad when it's on the draw against Storm. Without T1 disruption, they are likely going to gib you on their T2 before you can get your hatebear online.

SoL is about hosing cantrip-heavy strategies and Elves. Storm is less affected by it.

And I quote:


ANT, TES and Elves are all decks (whose strategies) are totally messed by this card


And, as I meant, after you make him waste 1-2 mana storm cards (Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, anything) it must be rather sweet to tap your Aether Vial @2 for this guy.

[Poron]

and I keep with my opinion.. Gitaxian Probe, Preordain, Ponder, Brainstorm are 16 dead cards against that one.

After he casts Ad Nauseam, you drop this and watch him dig and dig into dead cards.

Yes, Canonist is better. but this double the count and has 3 power.

I like it against storm. that's all

[Secretly.A.Bee]

and I keep with my opinion.. Gitaxian Probe, Preordain, Ponder, Brainstorm are 16 dead cards against that one.

After he casts Ad Nauseam, you drop this and watch him dig and dig into dead cards.

Yes, Canonist is better. but this double the count and has 3 power.

I like it against storm. that's all

Lawlz. You can keep your opinion. No one else wants it. Dead cards like petal, rits, tutors and win cons?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Lawlz. You can keep your opinion. No one else wants it. Dead cards like petal, rits, tutors and win cons?


Frankly, sometimes this ain't completely true, because you might be forced to stop AdN too soon before you set the IT+LED, or one of them might be extracted or anything else. That's when you need to Ponder and BS (and flashback Ponder and BS) until you "naturally cantrip" into the kill and it happens to be not exactly possible with lolcat in play.

Yep, you may still AdN for a lot but fail, then start cantripping, then flashback AdN and "draw" the wincon from AdN, but as this whole hypothesis started with a premise "you've been forced to stop AdN at low life total" it doesn't seem possible to have enough mana to cantrip for ever and then just simply go "I'll spend five mana to fb AdN, flip Tendrils, lose four life, pay 2BB for ToA, yawn, gg." Also, BS isn't the exact thing to use under the lolcat, but at least Ponder and Preordain might move you somewehre. I guess only reasonable usage for BS is to hellbent yourself (in case it's LED what's missing, not IT), but then again where you'll take enough mana to play several BS to get hellbent is beyond my imagination. Maybe you'll have LED.

Whatever.

[Jander78]

Stay on topic, or don't post. Stop with the spam.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Now when all of us (except me and Lemnear) understand that lolcat should be played in DnT or Mav (and vialed in response to Dark Ritual), there's still that another thing I'm interested in: what's the general opinion on this dude combined with Vendilion Clique? I know that the card is designed to NOT be used in blue decks, and Clique is blue like a smurf, but I guess that Vialing the cat in response to, say, Brainstorm and continuing with a flashed in Clique might be quite devastating. Losing two to three cards and staring at a 3/1 cat and 3/1 flying faerie isn't really rejoicing. Danger of cool things?

[soltakar]

If this card becomes a major player, and it kinda looks like it may, I'm thinking that Portent may go up in usefulness.

[ThediscoPower]

If this card becomes a major player, and it kinda looks like it may, I'm thinking that Portent may go up in usefulness.

well, will it now? From what I gathered from this thread in general is that it's good against elfes, bad against storm and it dies to everything.

Anyways, it might be worth testing at least, but you want to run more thalias than this guy. she does more for the gameplan, in general, and you want to land thalia first in almost every situations I can think of. I can see it as a 1-2 of in maverick/death and taxes, but probably not more than that.

[Lemnear]

and I keep with my opinion.. Gitaxian Probe, Preordain, Ponder, Brainstorm are 16 dead cards against that one.

After he casts Ad Nauseam, you drop this and watch him dig and dig into dead cards.

Yes, Canonist is better. but this double the count and has 3 power.

I like it against storm. that's all

Again: You'll never stop Probe with SotL. Ponder and Preordain still dig (even for carddisadvantage). TES and some ANT builds don't even run Preordain.

That argument of 16 "dead" cards is a hyperbole and not a serious argument people in this thread can work with. Saying it makes Ponder and Preordain worse and hosses Brainstorm is however a true one. Topic for me was to estimate if the impact under that condition is big enough to run it MD having an eye on strategies like Elves, Griselbrand or Time Spiral.

[Poron]

of course lolcast is better against against Omnitell, Elves and any kind of Solidarity.

I'm just saying that this card is good against more decks than Canonist. And, seen the 3 power, I would rather play this maindeck instead of Canonist. Maybe 3/1 with 1 Enlightened Tutor for both...

and 2 Canonist SB if storm should become more popular.

Vendilion Clique + Cat is very nice but all those /1 creatures don't live well in a meta soon filled of /-1 effects...

[Tammit67]

The card is probably good enough in the maindeck with its body and effect and it is at the very least annoying for storm based combo. Yes you can win through it, but if you don't yet have the win it will make it harder to find the win before something else potentially disrupts you.

Was that so hard?

[Lemnear]

I'm just saying that this card is good against more decks than Canonist. And, seen the 3 power, I would rather play this maindeck instead of Canonist.

No doubts here. It's quite good in the average metagame and against certain combo decks. Thalia remains the better hatebear but SotL makes a good 5th/6th hatebear-slot.


Lightning Edit: This discussion reminds me of an unfortunate argument over DRS in the ANT thread :(

[Poron]

and that's substantially all I'm saying: G1 you can just find this card and not Canonist in your hand. So, to hold Vial@2 for this, it can be the best move for g1

g2 is all another story

[Barook]

It might change the way BS decks play against white decks with Vial @2 - to play around SoL and wait until Vial is tapped, especially when they want to cast Brainstorm.

[LeoCop 90]

Does anyone yhink this card should have been red ? The ability hates mostly on blue, so it looks a lot more red than white to me. Plus, it would have been nice if red finally had a card to try fighting combo in some way.

[Barook]

Does anyone yhink this card should have been red ? The ability hates mostly on blue, so it looks a lot more red than white to me. Plus, it would have been nice if red finally had a card to try fighting combo in some way.
Draw denial actually more black - it would have made perfect sense in black, too.

But since disruption bears that stifle certain aspects of the game are white's domain, it's fine where it is - unlike TNN, which was an all-around abortion of the color pie.

[Asthereal]

SotL isn't very dangerous for Storm.
Okay, it's better than Watchwolf, but what does it really do?

It stops cantrips from being effective. When it's on the table, that is.
You will only see it from turn 2 on, so:

OTD Storm will have had the time to cast all Probes and at least one Ponder or Brainstorm.
If the Storm player sees SotL with a Probe, he can still decide to cast Chrome Mox, Imprint a cantrip and cast an extra cantrip. Or burn a Petal for it.

OTP Storm will have had two turns to cast all Probes, a Ponder, a Brainstorm, then fetch and cast another cantrip. That's all the cantripping it should ever need.

Conclusion: half of the time, SotL will be too late to stop any cantrips at all, and the other half of the time it will be too late to stop the first one. That's just not enough. Remember that SotL doesn't stop the combo turn at all. Believe me, Phyrexian Revoker is a way more dangerous hatebear. That thing stops LED, which in turn makes Infernal Tutor MUCH worse, complicating the combo turn a lot, making the Storm player more prone to play errors.

SotL is overrated against Storm. It's nice against controllish decks though.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Does anyone yhink this card should have been red ? The ability hates mostly on blue, so it looks a lot more red than white to me.
Red hates on blue? Oh, you mean the color-pie thing that WotC discarded some time ago? :smile:
It is quite reasonable in white, it has that flavour of "balance and calmness" or w/e.



Plus, it would have been nice if red finally had a card to try fighting combo in some way.
Yes, yes, yes. Sadly, WotC are of different opinion and the only possible red cards they are able to invent read "draw X, discard X" or "first strike, haste" or "~ deal three dmg to any one target".
I'm glad it's not blue.



Lightning Edit: This discussion reminds me of an unfortunate argument over DRS in the ANT thread :(
Do you mean the one where I wrote that under certain conditions DRS is a major pain in the ass and you opposed it like crazy? I think that the whole discussion ended with something like this:

on opposite, those are the exact conditions in which DRS eats you alive: Without a hand, in topdeck-mode

the exact conditions in which DRS eats you alive

DRS eats you alive

This forum is dildos.

[Lemnear]

Yes, it was about playing around DRS with Infernal->Infernal Chains and all the shit over pages where we argued over generalized arguments on both sides, in a world with many shades of grey. That contained too much heat over something I think we agreed in essence: DRS (especially paired with other disruption like discard) can, and this is for you, "eat ANT alive" ;)

Thankfully we got over that shit quick for more constuctive work :)



Here, I think the thread went nuts, as I was provoked by a strange and generalized Statement :/ history repeats

[Admiral_Arzar]

Does anyone yhink this card should have been red ? The ability hates mostly on blue, so it looks a lot more red than white to me. Plus, it would have been nice if red finally had a card to try fighting combo in some way.

Yes, but red isn't actually allowed to have good cards anymore. See: Snapcaster Mage, Delver of Secrets.



This forum is dildos.

I'm pretty sure the quantity of dildos is inversely proportional to the overall intelligence of the posters on the forum.


Yes, it was about playing around DRS with Infernal->Infernal Chains and all the shit over pages where we argued over generalized arguments on both sides, in a world with many shades of grey. That contained too much heat over something I think we agreed in essence: DRS (especially paired with other disruption like discard) can, and this is for you, "eat ANT alive" ;)

Here, I think the thread went nuts, as I was provoked by a strange and generalized Statement :/ history repeats

I'm very uncomfortable with the mention of "dildos," "...shades of grey," and people being "eaten alive" so close together in this thread.

[TsumiBand]

Actually I disagree that Spirit of the Labyrinth is another "Shoulda Been Red" card, since Red has been slowly bleeding into more card drawing itself, though it is kind of shitty and random variations on the theme that one should discard X to draw N, and not necessarily in that order.

Which, whatever, sometimes it's not-so-bad. Dangerous Wager is an "only okay" card. I like it with the other other not-Confidant, Blood Scrivener, but only in a "let me try out this casual Modern deck against your $800 Jund deck" way.

Anyway it would be kind of terrible to intentionally move this kind of draw into Red, only to print an anti-draw hatecat that stops it cold. I know sometimes colors hate on themselves when they hate a mechanic, but I don't feel like this is a very Red thing to do, that's all. Then again, it needs to get a little better than "creatures can't block this turn" doesn't it…

[Lemnear]

This creature is as white as it could have been. Making it red would not only have been strange but pointless with Blue Elemental Blast/Hyroblast available every time the metagame develops towards red key-cards (see Imperial Painter during it's first run)

Delver should have been black and Snapcaster red however

[TsumiBand]

Delver should have been black

I have my stupid hat on today; do tell.

[Lemnear]

I have my stupid hat on today; do tell.

Black 1-drop with drawback but bigger body in the Tradition of:

http://i.tcgplayer.com/4297.jpg

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=192225&type=card

[TsumiBand]

Black 1-drop with drawback but bigger body in the Tradition of:

http://i.tcgplayer.com/4297.jpg

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=192225&type=card

I guess I could see that, if playing a vanilla 1/1 with Transform is considered a drawback? It's a drawback in comparison to its ultimate form I guess. Or are you suggesting that either side of the card should have a "At the beginning of your upkeep, you lose (an amount of) life"?

[Lemnear]

I guess I could see that, if playing a vanilla 1/1 with Transform is considered a drawback? It's a drawback in comparison to its ultimate form I guess. Or are you suggesting that either side of the card should have a "At the beginning of your upkeep, you lose (an amount of) life"?

I consider the flip-ability a drawback. Flipping counters and riding it home is retarded ... Maybe revealing Rituals and Discard isn't much better though :/

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's a "drawback" because it isn't automatically a 3/2 flyer for 1. It's one of the best drawbacks ever printed as far as playability goes, but I see what they did there. I wish it were black, honestly.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Hof]

I like this Spirit a lot because if it is in play, Portent is suddenly the best cantrip in the game.

[mrjumbo03]

Saying Probe will never be stopped by SotL is wrong. It can be stopped when you naturally draw into one after this is already in play.

Not yet taking a side though until further testing has been done, as the numbers in the DnT will have to be tinkered to fit this in.

[Lemnear]

Saying Probe will never be stopped by SotL is wrong. It can be stopped when you naturally draw into one after this is already in play.

Not yet taking a side though until further testing has been done, as the numbers in the DnT will have to be tinkered to fit this in.

Forgive me my slight hyperbole to highlight that smart players will fire off their Probes asap if they expect SotL.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

As all the transform cards, Delver should have not been printed. Snapcaster should have been red however
Fixed.



Saying Probe will never be stopped by SotL is wrong. It can be stopped when you naturally draw into one after this is already in play.
This might not matter though. The first Probe might be followed by Therapy, or even firing of catrips asap, right into the turn2/turn3 kill. This dude does little to stop Storm from winning, so unless the lolcat is followed by a real hatebear (Thalia and more specifically Teeg/Cannonist), Storm might simply ignore it and proceed to win with IT chain, PiF combo or AdN; the latter might be affected because of the "cantrip into win after falling to low life total" I wrote about somewhere above.

What I find much more appealing about the card is that it affects the "fair Brainstorm decks" if anything like that exists. While Storm might ignore the lolcat (and maybe even win before it's pressence is felt), the decks that need to take a bit more time to win are the ones that are much more affected, although they play far less cantrips. While Storm might fire of the catrips on turn1-2 (even at the cost of Petals or at the cost of in-resp-BS, both of these are imperfect, but whatever), e.g. Thresh won't do that (at least for the Petals) and it also uses catrips differently. Nevermore turn5 BS into the perfect answer, nevermore. Yep, Thresh (or better said: "Tempo") has the ability to counter/remove the lolcat, but this is not certain, see Cavern of Souls, Mother of Runes, or even... Aether Vial the lolcat in resp. to your BS that was meant to find the perfect answer.

I'm also quite interested how this will work against Jace decks, where the lolcat pilot has quite some time to assemble Vial and play the dude in the exact time. And even without Vial trick, this should be devastating no less, because UW Control, although it doesn't play Probes and use maybe one or two Ponders, are definitely even more dependent on BS-like effects than say Thresh, unless I'm not understanding how JTMS and miracles work. Also, while Forked Bolt, Fire, Rough, Sulfur Elemental and w/e else I'm missing may take the lolcat and any other hatebear/Mor at once, it shouldn't be that easy to Jace away any of them with turn1 MoR in play followed by bear.

I'm not sure if Maverick is the best deck to use this card (I fear that there's not enough room for it, otoh, maybe the copies of Thalia might be shaved to two, or something like third/foruth KotR can get the axe), but I think that DnT versions using this guy (and maybe even md Cannonist) may become a format breaking nightmare. It's not like DnT is bad right now, but this should make it a king of Legacy. After all, I always disliked the dependance/devotion to Karakas and Mangara, as the legendary status might be problematic (IDK, I never played the deck and it might be also much better after the rules change), so if there are three slots open for three lolcats...

My onlyhope (as the devoted Thresh player) is that no secondary Mother of Runes shows up. I know of Safekeepr, thanks for noting, but as he isn't white and needs lands to operate, I'm not so afraid of it, as of something like one-mana white dude with "tap: hexproof the target" or "tap: +0/+3 to traget" or something like that. Which leads me to a question (which I gonna find an answer right now, Gatherer FTW), if, of the many tap-to-prevent creatures that the game offers, there isn't one that may work as MoR no.5.


Arsenal, do me a favor, and don't answer to my post.

[Scott]

My onlyhope (as the devoted Thresh player) is that no secondary Mother of Runes shows up. I know of Safekeepr, thanks for noting, but as he isn't white and needs lands to operate, I'm not so afraid of it, as of something like one-mana white dude with "tap: hexproof the target" or "tap: +0/+3 to traget" or something like that. Which leads me to a question (which I gonna find an answer right now, Gatherer FTW), if, of the many tap-to-prevent creatures that the game offers, there isn't one that may work as MoR no.5.

Don't judge me for using Benevolent Bodyguard in the SB of a homebrew once when I wanted moms #5-8.

[from Cairo]

My onlyhope (as the devoted Thresh player) is that no secondary Mother of Runes shows up. I know of Safekeepr, thanks for noting, but as he isn't white and needs lands to operate, I'm not so afraid of it, as of something like one-mana white dude with "tap: hexproof the target" or "tap: +0/+3 to traget" or something like that. Which leads me to a question (which I gonna find an answer right now, Gatherer FTW), if, of the many tap-to-prevent creatures that the game offers, there isn't one that may work as MoR no.5.

Devoted Caretaker?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Wow! Caretaker is really nice! Thanks!

[Barook]

I'm not sure if Maverick is the best deck to use this card (I fear that there's not enough room for it, otoh, maybe the copies of Thalia might be shaved to two, or something like third/foruth KotR can get the axe), but I think that DnT versions using this guy (and maybe even md Cannonist) may become a format breaking nightmare. It's not like DnT is bad right now, but this should make it a king of Legacy. After all, I always disliked the dependance/devotion to Karakas and Mangara, as the legendary status might be problematic (IDK, I never played the deck and it might be also much better after the rules change), so if there are three slots open for three lolcats...
SoL doesn't address D&T's bad match-ups like super-fast combo decks or Jund, though it might help a bit against Elves.

Nobody is going to add MD Canonist when it's even hard enough to find spots for SoL in the first place.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

SoL doesn't address D&T's bad match-ups like super-fast combo decks or Jund, though it might help a bit against Elves.

Nobody is going to add MD Canonist when it's even hard enough to find spots for SoL in the first place.

I thought about complete overhaul of the deck. Maybe I'm wrong...

[YamiJoey]

How does 'Cast ANT or never dig again' not help against combo?

[Valtrix]

The real strength of this spirit, in my eyes, is the body attached it. Normal hatebears are only 2/2, which is only so-so when trying to be aggressive. But an unconditional 3/1 for two mana is respectable, if not amazing. In fact, I doubt many people would be very excited about this card if it was only a 2/2. Now, combining this decent body with an ability which disrupts one of the most common played cards in the format (brainstorm), plus a slew of other draw effects seems pretty useful. I don't think that anybody should be arguing that the ability is back breaking consistently. It certainly can be if your opponent has a cantrip heavy hand and can't find a removal spell, or if you vial this in response to a brainstorm, but more often than not it will be a 3/1 beater than can blank some spells your opponent might have for awhile.

People might slot spirit of the labyrinth into some older strategies in order to try this guy out. In particular, of the more powerful and popular decks, I think it's incredibly likely that this guy will see a 2-4 of play in Death and Taxes. That said, this card is not going to make any tier 2+ strategies suddenly dominate the meta; this is not that type of card.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

How does 'Cast ANT or never dig again' not help against combo?

Because unlike with tempo or control, you play the cantrips asap. By turn2 (the soonest turn that lolcat shows up, unless we're speaking of Vintage and/or Mox XYZ) Storm player fires a GP (maybe even followed by Therapy), then Ponders/Preordains unless he needs to (or feels like he needs to) keep BS to blank discard.
Esp. with Storm on play (much less with DnT on play), turn2 lolcat might be too late.
Otoh, it definitely stops the post AdN cantripping, but well, if the AdN happened on turn2-3 (and lolcat doesn't prevent nor hinder it, unlike Teeg/Thalia/Cannonist), chances are that the Storm guy went pretty deep due to his high life total, so the IT+LED was assembled or he even naturally drawn ToA/EtW/BW.