[JOU] Journey into Nyx Spoiler discussion

[uncletiggy]

The point was that disruptive decks should make it tricky actually stick 7 devotion. The opponent has cards too, and assuming they are interactive, they will often be trading with your cards. Magical Xmas land of T1 DRS, T2 Lili, T3 Tidehollow, T4 Atheros will likely run into some disruption, and that's just to set up an attacker on turn 5...

I understand how the game works as well as disruption. I was just offering up a reasonable board presence that made the god live and wasn't and over committed board. Sculler would more then likely take the bolt anyway and if they use another to get sculler of the board the god would recur it. Im not saying the card is busted or that id even play it.

[HammafistRoob]

Any card with devotion is too much of a stretch for Legacy period. It would have to break Standard in half to be playable in Legacy. How does anybody not see this? Without devotion 7 it's a terribad Volrath's Stronghold, and if you manage devotion 7, it's a marginally better Phyrexian Negator. Are we seriously considering this card in Legacy? I honestly doubt it even sees fringe play in Modern, never mind our format. It will be good in Standard BW Aggro though, it'll probably be one of the chase rares of the set for Standard junkies.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Ugh ... why would you want to animate it anyway? There are very few things in competitive Legacy that can get rid of an indestructible enchantment: why turn it into a creature that can be more easily dealt with?

I'll admit though, I'm not sure which deck it would fit in ... probably something more attrition-based than tempo-based. But the potential is certainly there I believe.

[bruizar]

This and Vexing Devil? Just thinking out loud here..

[Poron]

It seems like a player could win by piling some combination of Purphoros, God of the Forge,Cyclops of Eternal Fury, Forgeborn Oreads, and maybe one or two other enchantment bodies into the graveyard and firing off a Replenish.

Same combo, endlessly faster, Saproling Burst + Pandemonium Opalescencemakes anything better

Purphoros makes anything redoundant, faster and more reliable but... it's a combo which relies on

1) multiple cards in the graveyard
2) a 4 mana sorcery to win

How is this better then a Griselbrand + Reanimate which wins in the same turn anyway?

It has the same weaknesses but it's 500% faster. (Dark Ritual, Entomb, Reanimate/Goryo's Vengeance/Exhume) GG

I can't to see a future for all of these cards in Legacy

[btm10]

Ugh ... why would you want to animate it anyway? There are very few things in competitive Legacy that can get rid of an indestructible enchantment: why turn it into a creature that can be more easily dealt with?

I'll admit though, I'm not sure which deck it would fit in ... probably something more attrition-based than tempo-based. But the potential is certainly there I believe.

WGb Enchantress is probably the only option, and there it's just testable rather than definitely useful.

[Megadeus]

A deck that plays 4 whole creatures and doesnt pressure your opponents life total seems like a poor place for the BW God. I think just because of it's ability, it has potential. I'm not saying it would be amazing or anything, but I dont think it is necessarily the worst thing in the world.

I could see some sort of (awful) Dega shell with like Vexing Devil, and some other aggressive guys to pressure thei life total, then when you drop a god, you could like Orzhov Charm back your Vexing Devil or something.

[Tylert]

A deck that plays 4 whole creatures and doesnt pressure your opponents life total seems like a poor place for the BW God. I think just because of it's ability, it has potential. I'm not saying it would be amazing or anything, but I dont think it is necessarily the worst thing in the world.

I could see some sort of (awful) Dega shell with like Vexing Devil, and some other aggressive guys to pressure thei life total, then when you drop a god, you could like Orzhov Charm back your Vexing Devil or something.

THe 3/1 unearth elemental for 2 and Keldon marauders? seems like a bad burn deck :) (but I would play it for the lols).
I guess it could also be played in Zombardment (but may be redundant considering the creatures can already come back into play).

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Janky Deck Building Powers: Activate!

4 Gravecrawler
4 Carrion Feeder
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Goblin Bombardment
2 Atheros, God of Passage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
1 Scrubland
1 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain

[TsumiBand]

I like how people be like "devotion 7 is really hard, so let's play this in 3-color"

I mean *clearly* the hotness is to play turn 1 Mother of Runes, turn 2 Chrome Mox on Black for Athreos, turn 3 Phyrexian Obliterator. I can't believe nobody else saw that.

Honestly, I think that unless Thassa were already impacting Legacy in a notable way - it isn't, right? - then Athreos would be worth considering a little harder. But AFAIK if 5 Devotion in mono-Blue isn't worth the trouble, 7 Devotion in Orzhov is probably not worth it either.

It is a little like playing a mono-colored creature with an off-color ability and then saying that it is irrelevant that you cannot activate it. That flies sometimes in Limited but in any given Constructed format it virtually always means there is a better card for that slot. I do not know if its non-conditional ability is worth the 3 mana without being able to take advantage of recursion in a way that is already better than the card itself (IOW, Athreos would just be a fifth wheel).

That said... hurrah! Ghost Council EDH!

[FTW]

The thing is, having opponent get Bolted to not let you get your creature back is only marginally better than having the opponent get shocked every time you drop a dork (Purphoros). Whereas Purphoros is actually in burn colors and a WB god really isn't... Mogg War Marshal and friends are all better with Purphoros than with Atheros.

[Cire]

The thing is, having opponent get Bolted to not let you get your creature back is only marginally better than having the opponent get shocked every time you drop a dork (Purphoros). Whereas Purphoros is actually in burn colors and a WB god really isn't... Mogg War Marshal and friends are all better with Purphoros than with Atheros.

But Atheros comes out a turn sooner - so lets say in separate games you get him out Turn 2 and Purphoros Turn 3, then play a creature each turn. Purphoros would win in 10 turns (turn 13) while Atheros would win in 7 turns (turn 9). So it seems that Atheros is much faster than Purphoros with that in mind. Additionally I don't know why people are complaining about the devotion, devotion seems like a draw back since then it can be Terminus-ed or STPed. . . without devotion it is basically an irremovable enchantment that reads "Whenever a creature dies, opponent either takes 3 to the dome or grants you CA." The question is whether

1BW
Enchantment
Indestructible
Whenever a creature you control dies, opponent either takes 3 to the dome or grants you CA.

Is playable or not? I think it might be - but then you can't treat him as a build around me card, instead you simply slot 2/3 Atheros into a deck with B/W that runs creatures with ETB effects. . . Then it provides a decent clock or great CA.

[zulander]

New and improved City of Brass, good bye Gemstone Mines?

Mana Confluence
Land
T, Pay 1 life: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool

[nevilshute]

New and improved City of Brass, good bye Gemstone Mines?

Mana Confluence
Land
T, Pay 1 life: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool

More likely it is good bye City of Brass rather than Gemstone Mine. At least for TES.

[ScatmanX]

More likely it is good bye City of Brass rather than Gemstone Mine. At least for TES.
Will not have old frame pimp, so TES players will use City of Brass.

[FieryBalrog]

That's not the problem, the problem is that "chosen player" references a choice that non-TNN creatures will not have made as they entered play.

^ This is correct...



706.7a. If an ability causes a player to "choose a [value]" or "name a card," and a second, linked ability refers to that choice, the second ability is the only ability that can refer to that choice. An object doesn't "remember" that choice and use it for other abilities it may copy later. If an object copies an ability that refers to a choice, but either (a) doesn't copy that ability's linked ability or (b) does copy the linked ability but no choice is made for it, then the choice is considered to be "undefined." If an ability refers to an undefined choice, that part of the ability won't do anything.

Example: Voice of All enters the battlefield and Unstable Shapeshifter copies it. Voice of All reads, in part, "As Voice of All enters the battlefield, choose a color." and "Voice of All has protection from the chosen color." Unstable Shapeshifter never had a chance for a color to be chosen for it, because it didn't enter the battlefield as a Voice of All card, so the protection ability doesn't protect it from anything at all.

[rufus]

All of the strive effect seems pretty bad anyway - you need to spend a bunch of mana *and* have multiple bodies in play. Those are pretty big requirements, even for something that wins the game immediately. (How often is Heat Shimmer going to be worse than Polymorphous Rush?)

[JPoJohnson]

All of the strive effect seems pretty bad anyway - you need to spend a bunch of mana *and* have multiple bodies in play. Those are pretty big requirements, even for something that wins the game immediately. (How often is Heat Shimmer going to be worse than Polymorphous Rush?)

That and there are typically more superior options (Like for example why would you play Polymorphous Rush when you could be playing Mirrorweave outside of the standard format?)

[Megadeus]

New red double strike man is cool. Unfortunately probably not legacy playable though.

[TsumiBand]

New red double strike man is cool. Unfortunately probably not legacy playable though.

I dunno, getting 2 extra spells a turn is pretty clutch in a fast Red deck. Seems like something to play with at least

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Dice_Box]

Feels like your paying more to use the power than you gain. If you want it to hit the player, you have to clear a path. You use your spells to clear that path. Then you get more spells as payment. Why not skip the middleman and just hit them with your spells?

[Lemnear]

Feels like your paying more to use the power than you gain. If you want it to hit the player, you have to clear a path. You use your spells to clear that path. Then you get more spells as payment. Why not skip the middleman and just hit them with your spells?

Tbh he's still likely netting you cardadvantage. The Problem is that there is no way this thing can dig you out of an unfavorable boardstate and only works well if you are at least on par with opponents battlefield which makes this a win-more over and over

[Barook]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/31/635330272908226297.jpg

Is the drawback too much? I guess so, but who knows? A 5/5 flyer for 3 mana shouldn't be completely overlooked, although Tombstalker most likely is the better choice.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/29/635330272103628793.jpg

I like it. The trample guarantees that he isn't chump-blocked that easily.

It hasn't been mentioned yet, but the double strike also makes him a brutal equipment carrier. Slap a Jitte or a SoFaI on him and you're going to have a field day. While off-color, Exalted is also a pretty strong option.

I wouldn't write him off like that, especially due to strong equipment synergy and potential mass CA in a color that normally doesn't get any.

The better question is where he can find a home. Jund might be a prime candidate since everything dies in their hail of removal anyway and getting up to 2 extra cards a turn sounds pretty sexy.

[Final Fortune]

Master of the Feast seems like a legitimate option in a Storm deck that wants to use a SB man plan, maybe it has applications in SI or Hermit Druid decks because it's in the range of a cost effective, evasive threat the deck can default to if it's facing an active hate card.

Obvious down side is that it's an Abrupt Decay target, but it seems like a step up from Phyrexian Negator.

[Lemnear]

Master of the Feast seems like a legitimate option in a Storm deck that wants to use a SB man plan, maybe it has applications in SI or Hermit Druid decks because it's in the range of a cost effective, evasive threat the deck can default to if it's facing an active hate card.

Obvious down side is that it's an Abrupt Decay target, but it seems like a step up from Phyrexian Negator.

I'm evaltuating this considering EtW, Tombstalker and Abyssal Persecutor being available. Having a one-sided howling mine is a hell of a drawback on a creature which gives your opponent at least 8 draws (4 turns howling mine and 4 opponents draw steps till it kills your opponent with combat damage) to answer it.

[Aggro_zombies]

Honestly, Flamespeaker seems stellar in a UR or Grixis Young Pyromancer deck. Brainstorm and Ponder set him up and you can use black, red, or maybe white (if you go WUR) removal spells to get him through. The bigger problem is that he's really, really bad in a format with True-Name Nemesis, both playing against the card and in comparison to it. If TNN weren't around, I think he'd be much more exciting.

[Barook]

If TNN weren't around, I think he'd be much more exciting.
The format itself would be much more exciting if that PoS wasn't around. But that's a different topic.

I think the home it might find immediately is in Dragon Stompy (but who plays that nowadays compared to Imperial Painter?) and maybe Jund. What are good reasons why Jund wouldn't at least run a few copies? I'm not talking about replacing BBE, just supplementing it in some kind of split.

[bruizar]

The format itself would be much more exciting if that PoS wasn't around. But that's a different topic.

I think the home it might find immediately is in Dragon Stompy (but who plays that nowadays compared to Imperial Painter?) and maybe Jund. What are good reasons why Jund wouldn't at least run a few copies? I'm not talking about replacing BBE, just supplementing it in some kind of split.

Why not in burn to ensure you don't go out of gas? Sulfuric Vortex might be more consistent in providing gas, but I think this dude seals the game much more quickly dealing anywhere near 5 to 8 damage a turn (if you draw 1 or 2 bolts).

I don't think this is playable. But if there's a home for it, I think it is going to be burn because burn has the spells to clear the way for this thing to connect. You could argue that you'd rather target the player first, but we all know that certain cards (deathrite shaman, equipment with dudes) should be dealt with as soon as possible.

[Megadeus]

Best I could see is some sort of RB deck where you can use discard to clear out removal and remove their men and ride the CA to victory, similar to Bob.

[Finn]

The doublestrike on Flamespeaker makes it pretty appealing card draw in red. What happens if you exile lands? Can this get around the one per turn limit? Card draw and accel in one card seems pretty butch. You would only have to hit once to come out way ahead. If it does not get around this rule, meh - needs blue too much.

[Megadeus]

It does not get to play extra lands unfortunately. So be smart and play lands after attacking

[yamahama]

The doublestrike on Flamespeaker makes it pretty appealing card draw in red. What happens if you exile lands? Can this get around the one per turn limit? Card draw and accel in one card seems pretty butch. You would only have to hit once to come out way ahead. If it does not get around this rule, meh - needs blue too much.

What He^ said....I'm thinking that you can not play an additional land since it doesn't specify as such, similar to Courser of Cruphix.

[rufus]

Flamespeaker seems like a card with heavy potential - evasion, double strike, and card advantage. Any chance we'll ever see critical mass for shaman tribal?

I'm a little intrigued by twinflame's potential in EtB effect decks. For example, in a ally deck if I have one Akoum Battlesinger, and a generic ally in play, and I copy both, all allies get +4/+0, and there's the potential to swing for 20. Copying a Goblin Ringleader and a Goblin Lackey or Goblin Matron is pretty smooth.

Edit: I think there are more intriguing red cards in this set than I've seen in a long time.

[TsumiBand]

Also there are so many UB flyers with drawbacks that are just thick and meaty and cost like 3 mana. Master of the Feast makes me I wish could play like Vampire Nighthawk and Thought Devourer and somehow not just auto-lose. I would Psionic Blast someone FTW, I don't even care. Seems strong.

[Infinitium]

Pharika, God of Affliction

Legendary Enchantment Creature - God
Indestructible

As long as your devotion to black and green is less than seven, Pharika isn't a creature.

BG: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. It's owner puts a 1/1 black and green Snake enchantment creature token with deathtouch onto the battlefield.


This.. is much better than I dared hope. Very much playable in Elves as a 1-of maindeck or sideboarded as a consideration versus midgame in general and Pox/Rock variants in particular. It's fetchable with GSZ, helps recover from non-white removal and counters, stalls unfavorable boardstates, is a fast clock in very favorable boardstates and is virtually impossible to remove once it hits the field. Bonus points for being one of a select few non-elf creatures ever printed that can be actively protected from removal by Wirewood Symbiote (by manipulating Devotion in response to it).

[HPB_Eggo]

This.. is much better than I dared hope. Very much playable in Elves as a 1-of maindeck or sideboarded as a consideration versus midgame in general and Pox/Rock variants in particular. It's fetchable with GSZ, helps recover from non-white removal and counters, stalls unfavorable boardstates, is a fast clock in very favorable boardstates and is virtually impossible to remove once it hits the field. Bonus points for being one of a select few non-elf creatures ever printed that can be actively protected from removal by Wirewood Symbiote (by manipulating Devotion in response to it).

It's also potentially decent in, say, certain Enchantress variants or in any control deck with Pernicious Deed. I can think of a lot of decks that would appreciate instant-speed deathtouch guys, even if they can't block fliers or TNN.

[Infinitium]

Note that it's the owner of the creature that gets the token, making it very narrow in what decks it can be effectively used in.

[HPB_Eggo]

Note that it's the owner of the creature that gets the token, making it very narrow in what decks it can be effectively used in.

And I'd completely missed that bit. Must remember to sleep before posting...

I agree with you, then, that Elves seems like the best fit. Potentially decent for some other BG decks, but definitely not control or Enchantress.

[Megadeus]

I'm honestly disappointed with golgari God. Was hoping for something worth GSZing for in nic fit. This one is pretty weak imo

[ThediscoPower]

And I'd completely missed that bit. Must remember to sleep before posting...

I agree with you, then, that Elves seems like the best fit. Potentially decent for some other BG decks, but definitely not control or Enchantress.

However, is it better than scanvenging ooze in those decks? it seems to me that ooze is easier to kill, but way more versatil in it's use, and the 1 mana activation is much better than the 2 mana activation. I don't think I would run that when I can run ooze instead.

[bruizar]

I love Riptide Chimera! It is an Esperzoa for enchantments. The applications for using it are endless. Another Faery Stompy dude to join the frey.

Riptide Chimera
2 U
Enchantment Creature - Chimera
Flying

At the beginning of your upkeep, return an enchanment you control to its owner's hand.

3/4

Cumulative upkeep suddenly becomes affordable.

Ancestral Knowledge Virtual tutor every turn
Illusionary Terrain ultra basic land hoser Back to Basics, Infernal Darkness,
Dystopia
Elephant Grass
Energy Storm For RUG
Mind Harness
Mystic Remora Oh fuck yeah
Reality Twist Screw every color but mono blue!

[TsumiBand]

Yeah Pharika really stinks.

She's the only multicolor God with an explicit activated ability, and it is pretty menial. I can appreciate the appeal of replacing a fat reanimation target with a Snake, but they went and gave it deathtouch. Which means its dumb as an anti-yard card.

Maybe I'm under valuing it. Don't think so though

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Cire]

I love Riptide Chimera! It is an Esperzoa for enchantments. The applications for using it are endless. Another Faery Stompy dude to join the frey.

Riptide Chimera
2 U
Enchantment Creature - Chimera
Flying

At the beginning of your upkeep, return an enchanment you control to its owner's hand.

3/4

Cumulative upkeep suddenly becomes affordable.

Ancestral Knowledge Virtual tutor every turn
Illusionary Terrain ultra basic land hoser Back to Basics, Infernal Darkness,
Dystopia
Elephant Grass
Energy Storm For RUG
Mind Harness
Mystic Remora Oh fuck yeah
Reality Twist Screw every color but mono blue!


Parallax Nexus cast - remove 5 fade counters, your upkeep return it to your hand instead of sacrificing it. Parallax Tide works just as well, but better since it removes lands and is blue.

Sarcomancy for 2/2 zombie tokens every turn.

Sisay's Ingenuity for repeated draw for U

[bruizar]

Parallax Nexus cast - remove 5 fade counters, your upkeep return it to your hand instead of sacrificing it. Parallax Tide works just as well, but better since it removes lands and is blue.

Sarcomancy for 2/2 zombie tokens every turn.

Sisay's Ingenuity for repeated draw for U

So much new deck design space!

[TsumiBand]

Obligatory mention of Mystic Remora and resetting cumulative upkeep costs

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[wcm8]

Master of the Feast seems to have a pretty awful drawback. It could maybe fit into some sort of GBx Eva Green deck that uses Dark Ritual to power it out quickly. DRS, Abrupt Decay, Liliana of the Veil, Sylvan Library, Hymn/Sinkhole, etc.

I like the new Esperzoa, as another poster mentioned I think it opens up some potential design space for a Ux deck that uses enchantments with ETB / cumulative upkeep costs.

[TsumiBand]

Master of the Feast seems to have a pretty awful drawback. It could maybe fit into some sort of GBx Eva Green deck that uses Dark Ritual to power it out quickly. DRS, Abrupt Decay, Liliana of the Veil, Sylvan Library, Hymn/Sinkhole, etc.

I like the new Esperzoa, as another poster mentioned I think it opens up some potential design space for a Ux deck that uses enchantments with ETB / cumulative upkeep costs.

TBH it seems good against these 'fair decks' I keep hearing about. They don't even get the first card until YOUR next upkeep, so it has to table before anything comes of it. If all they do is drop guys or burn spells, an early 5/5 flyer off of Dark Ritual puts them on a nasty clock.

LIGHTNING EDIT: Play with Grand Abolisher for great justice

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I'm honestly disappointed with golgari God. Was hoping for something worth GSZing for in nic fit. This one is pretty weak imo

Truth ... very disappointed myself. It's just . . . so bad >_<.

[Barook]

About Riptide Chimera: I'm disappointed nobody has mentioned Reality Acid yet.

Vindicate time, bitches!

Edit:

Why not in burn to ensure you don't go out of gas? Sulfuric Vortex might be more consistent in providing gas, but I think this dude seals the game much more quickly dealing anywhere near 5 to 8 damage a turn (if you draw 1 or 2 bolts).

I don't think this is playable. But if there's a home for it, I think it is going to be burn because burn has the spells to clear the way for this thing to connect. You could argue that you'd rather target the player first, but we all know that certain cards (deathrite shaman, equipment with dudes) should be dealt with as soon as possible.
Sulfuric Vortex is a reliable non-creature damage source that seals the game. If I lose to burn, it's because I couldn't answer this card.

I fail to see how a creature that eats your entire turn 3 that might connect on T4 is any good in Burn.

[rufus]

I love Riptide Chimera! It is an Esperzoa for enchantments. The applications for using it are endless. Another Faery Stompy dude to join the frey...

Reality Acid
Solitary Confinement

[HPB_Eggo]

However, is it better than scanvenging ooze in those decks? it seems to me that ooze is easier to kill, but way more versatil in it's use, and the 1 mana activation is much better than the 2 mana activation. I don't think I would run that when I can run ooze instead.

Pharika is basically equivalent if you're simply rating them in terms of the ability. Scaenging Ooze gives life and makes itself bigger with no drawback if you target the opponent's yard, while Pharika makes guys at instant speed that remove the opponent's attackers, but has a huge drawback if you target the opponent's yard.

While fairly narrow, some decks will really appreciate the fact that Pharika stalls a lot of boards. They just have to already be running creatures and, probably, GSZ.

[nedleeds]

Do they not have enough:

"Der err hydra is huge! Put counters on make bigger! Monster! Green derp! Counters! Look it gets bigger, you better block it! Err"

cards for the wallowing pool of corn filled feces that is standard? How many more stupid 4-5 cost green hydras do they need? What a miserable special ed class a standard tourney must be.

[FTW]

Reality Acid
Solitary Confinement

This. EnBantTress looks pretty happy splashing this card as a way to sustain Confinement/Elephant Grass lock or perpetuate the draw engine.

[Cire]

Riptide Chimera rough deck list?

U/W Enchimera

4 Riptide Chimera
4 SFM
3 TNN

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce

1 Reality Acid
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Parallax Tide
1 Mystic Remora
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull

24 Lands

[rufus]

Riptide Chimera rough deck list?
....


There are so many ways to go. I think you might want to start a separate SCD/Development thread. One-sided Zur's Weirding is surely another way to wreck someone's day.

[bruizar]

Abundant Growth looks like a decent card with Riptide Chimera. fixes mana and draws cards.

[TsumiBand]

Act of Authority seems like it plays with Riptide Chimera real nice like (though it might be a SB card). Unless there's a weird rules twist you should be able to stack the abilities such that you return AoA and THEN exile an additional artifact/enchantment, so in addition to getting replay value it should always just be a 2-for-1 (if not 2-for-0 and counting).

[JPoJohnson]

Act of Authority seems like it plays with Riptide Chimera real nice like (though it might be a SB card). Unless there's a weird rules twist you should be able to stack the abilities such that you return AoA and THEN exile an additional artifact/enchantment, so in addition to getting replay value it should always just be a 2-for-1 (if not 2-for-0 and counting).

Yeah, sideboard at the most. I don't know of many legacy decks running enough artifacts/enchantments alone to make this a viable removal engine.

[TsumiBand]

Yeah, sideboard at the most. I don't know of many legacy decks running enough artifacts/enchantments alone to make this a viable removal engine.

Every equipment card though? I thought we were all sitting around whining about TNN + durdles.

I suppose one could make an argument for Enchanted Evening...

[JPoJohnson]

Every equipment card though? I thought we were all sitting around whining about TNN + durdles.

I suppose one could make an argument for Enchanted Evening...

Against decks running usually 2 equipment at max, I think there are more effective and less-mana/synergy required related though. Maybe in modern where artifacts and enchantments drive many decks, but I'm not sure about standard.

[TsumiBand]

I can try and sneak AoA into Standard, but I think everyone will notice :(

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[thecrav]

Do they not have enough:

"Der err hydra is huge! Put counters on make bigger! Monster! Green derp! Counters! Look it gets bigger, you better block it! Err"

cards for the wallowing pool of corn filled feces that is standard? How many more stupid 4-5 cost green hydras do they need? What a miserable special ed class a standard tourney must be.

I read somewhere that Hyrdas are supposed to be Green's marquee creature type and that they've been printing more to correct the notion some people have that it should be wurms.

I have no idea why people might think that (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=441)

[Blastoderm]

I read somewhere that Hyrdas are supposed to be Green's marquee creature type and that they've been printing more to correct the notion some people have that it should be wurms.

I have no idea why people might think that (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=441)

I guess Hydras fit the greek theme more so than wurms...
I prefer wurms though. I'm still waiting for a legendary wurm :(

[TsumiBand]

I guess Hydras fit the greek theme more so than wurms...
I prefer wurms though. I'm still waiting for a legendary wurm :(

Right? Hydra : wurm as Sunny Delight : orange juice

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[wcm8]

Riptide Chimera rough deck list?

Mono blue control maybe? You could use the Chimera to 'combo' with Ancestral Knowledge and Reality Acid. Ancestral Knowledge is also a pretty effective card at enabling Temporal Mastery and/or Devastation Tide (Tide also combos with Reality Acid).

To make it worthwhile to be in Mono Blue, you could also play Back to Basics and Vedalken Shackles. To speed out your 3 drops you could run Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, and also consider dropping 1 drops altogether for access to Chalice of the Void.

Of course this all seems more 'cute' than good. It's hard to say so early on without any testing if this is really all that worthwhile. Abrupt Decay is a card, and at 3 mana you could be casting something like Show and Tell instead of trying to eke out incremental advantage. UWx Miracles is probably an overall more effective control strategy.

[Scott]

I read somewhere that Hyrdas are supposed to be Green's marquee creature type and that they've been printing more to correct the notion some people have that it should be wurms.

I have no idea why people might think that (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=441)

And anyway, Hydras should be red (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=9689), and (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=219) in (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5246) old (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=22296) frame (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2609).

[rufus]

And anyway, Hydras should be red (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=9689), and (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=219) in (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5246) old (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=22296) frame (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2609).

Well, the greek hydra, in particular, is a snake-like water monster, so I could see the case for blue. They could call it the hydrohydra to make it clear...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

That Riptide Chimera has a super ugly illustration.
Also, there could be some more Prog-like Hydras. The whole concept of counters=heads is quite boring when used for umpteenth time. Khalni Hydra is nice and funny.

[TheArchitect]

"Because the pyrostatic pillar that attacks isn't enough, lets put two 'fuck storm' cards in the set." - WoTC

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/67/635331135126786879.jpg




Also, this guy is kinda cool, but man they are really forcing heroic. I'll laugh if it still isn't remotely viable in standard.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/68/635331135172386213.jpg

[TsumiBand]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/68/635331135172386213.jpg

Aurelia's Fury, get your shit ready -- you're going to the Super Bowl!

EDIT: LOL with Boros Reckoner in play. "Target your three dudes and my Reckoner and um you I guess, I'll pay 1RW to deal 5 to all the things and 5 again to you, seems good" nope, that's not what that spell says. I guess maybe I was thinking of the RG one, it doesn't make you divide the damage. It was always bad, but now it's 4-color bad. Aw yissss

[JPoJohnson]

"Because the pyrostatic pillar that attacks isn't enough, lets put two 'fuck storm' cards in the set." - WoTC

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/67/635331135126786879.jpg

This card is slower to come down, just as easy to remove essentially, and a slower clock than Ethersworn. Fine with me.

[Barook]

Yeah, I fail to see how a more expensive creature is going to cut it when even Canonist might be too slow on the draw.

Start complaining when they print the (much needed) 1-mana hatebears.

[Lemnear]

Start complaining when they print the (much needed) 1-mana hatebears.

Tbh you can play Spirit Guides or Moxen to drop T1 Hatebears. I don't see any reasons the concept of hatebears should not be required to hop through a ring or two to hate out a complete strategy with a bear or two.

I know this will immediately backlash on me, but I have no clue why people think that 7-mana-strategies needs 1cc PERMANENT solutions

[FTW]

"Because the pyrostatic pillar that attacks isn't enough, lets put two 'fuck storm' cards in the set." - WoTC

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/67/635331135126786879.jpg




Also, this guy is kinda cool, but man they are really forcing heroic. I'll laugh if it still isn't remotely viable in standard.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/68/635331135172386213.jpg

Holy shit this combos really well with spells with Multikicker2.0.
Especially if the Strive cost is 1.
This plus some creatures + that white spell that makes a bunch of 1/1s is absolutely insane. One mana, make a bunch of attacking tokens, trigger a bunch of Heroic.

Esper tokens in Modern splashing blue for Mana Leak and this and Polymorphous Rush? Seems decent.

[bruizar]

Inspired works quiet well with Sky Hussar engine or Tangle Wire. Hopefully some good ones will be printed.

[Barook]

Tbh you can play Spirit Guides or Moxen to drop T1 Hatebears. I don't see any reasons the concept of hatebears should not be required to hop through a ring or two to hate out a complete strategy with a bear or two.

I know this will immediately backlash on me, but I have no clue why people think that 7-mana-strategies needs 1cc PERMANENT solutions
Backlash is a bit of an overstatement.

One of the reasons why blue is so overplayed in the format (aside from Brainstorm being overpowered) is that you have less trouble against combo on the draw.

Match-ups which are pretty much decided by who won the dice roll and go first kinda suck. And stuff like Mindbreak Trap is kinda narrow.

[FTW]

Also, this guy is kinda cool, but man they are really forcing heroic. I'll laugh if it still isn't remotely viable in standard.

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/128/68/635331135172386213.jpg

Heroic aside, this seems pretty sick in Standard Izzet Burn. Maybe it's just a worse Goblin Electromancer, but it makes Flames of the Firebrand with 2-3 targets cost only :R:! Seems like that card would be a blowout against aggro rush at that sort of lower cost.

Lightning Strike, Mizzium Mortars, Magma Jet, Flames of the Firebrand, Turn//Burn, etc. all look significantly better if cost is reduced by 1. Although this card is probably a better fit in a Heroic shell. Dauntless Onslaught for :W: on 2 heroic creatures is lulz.

[Barook]

Lightning Strike, Mizzium Mortars, Magma Jet, Flames of the Firebrand, Turn//Burn, etc. all look significantly better if cost is reduced by 1. Although this card is probably a better fit in a Heroic shell. Dauntless Onslaught for :W: on 2 heroic creatures is lulz.
That's a pretty interesting point.

I wonder though they it doesn't reduce the cost of auras as well. That would have been pretty nice.

[Lemnear]

Backlash is a bit of an overstatement.

One of the reasons why blue is so overplayed in the format (aside from Brainstorm being overpowered) is that you have less trouble against combo on the draw.

Match-ups which are pretty much decided by who won the dice roll and go first kinda suck. And stuff like Mindbreak Trap is kinda narrow.

But ANT having to have "narrow" D&T countermeasures like Dread of Night is fine? I support the intention you have, but at times I feel the discussion of combo vs. Non-blue/black decks isn't on par as a loud part of players in green/white/red aka the aggressive colors don't see themselves running cards that only have a disruption-effect, but demand the effect being tied to damage output in form of a body or the like.

Blue and black waste cards to battle combo in the 1cc range of spells so demanding a 1cc PERMANENT hate that DEALS DAMAGE IN ADDITION is gross. It's like demanding a creation of a Thoughtseize which either deals damage to your opponent or comes with a 2/1 body. That power level is just absurd and effects of those powerful turn 1 hatebears can be witnessed in vintage, a format which simply died because of the turn 1 Lodestone Golem annoyance which WotC never cared to fix


Edit: I think running acceleration or MBT to bridge gaps against combo IS reasonable as I was able to witness during Julian's BoM run, using MBT's to bridge into NO -> Ruric Thar against ANT

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The 1/4 hatebear philosopher is quite solid.
It has quite high manacost so the hatebears pilot still needs to do something before losing. It attacks format from unusual angle (what are other such cards except for Cannonist?). It has toughness of four, so it withstands quite some dmg (it survives Infest or Bolt) and can block even threshed Mongoose. Nice card. It's a shame it won't see any play due to being three-mana creature. Maybe there's some kind of White Stompy Hatebears deck with Sol lands and all the possible white hatebears in existence?

8 Sol
12 Plains
4 Mox

4 CotV
3 Trinisphere
2 Obl Ring
1 BSK
1 Jitte
1 SoFI

? SFM
? lolcat
? True Believer
? Cannonist
? Glowrider
? Mindcensor
? Eidolon of Rhetoric
another DnT dudes...


"It basically went like this: I couldn' play any cantrips since the second turn, my spells required aditional :2: to cast, there were three dudes that would survive Massacre just because he equipped them and I could not use SDT to draw into Doomsday because of some 1/4 wall."

[Barook]

One further note on Battlefield Thaumaturge: Curse of the Swine - disgusting.


But ANT having to have "narrow" D&T countermeasures like Dread of Night is fine? I support the intention you have, but at times I feel the discussion of combo vs. Non-blue/black decks isn't on par as a loud part of players in green/white/red aka the aggressive colors don't see themselves running cards that only have a disruption-effect, but demand the effect being tied to damage output in form of a body or the like.

Blue and black waste cards to battle combo in the 1cc range of spells so demanding a 1cc PERMANENT hate that DEALS DAMAGE IN ADDITION is gross. It's like demanding a creation of a Thoughtseize which either deals damage to your opponent or comes with a 2/1 body. That power level is just absurd and effects of those powerful turn 1 hatebears can be witnessed in vintage, a format which simply died because of the turn 1 Lodestone Golem annoyance which WotC never cared to fix
More cheap answers in general would be nice, hell, I'm running 2 Grafdigger's Cage right now, partly due to RiP being too slow on the draw.

As far as hatebears are concerned, a 1/1 could hardly be called a clock. Comparing normal hatebears with a 5/3 beater for :4: which is powered out with ridiculous mana accel isn't exactly fair. More important are cheap answers that aren't narrow. Bodies are just nice because they make the card less narrow most of the time.

Just look at Spirit of the Labyrinth - it has an aggressive body, but ultimatively failed because it's too slow (mana cost, sorcery speed) for its intended purpose (which is battling cantrips, especially Brainstorm).

Edit: If you want to bitch about something, bitch about this:

(~Ephigy of the Gods? - name not really confirmed) :1::w:
Enchantment Creature - Human Soldier
You have hexproof.
2/1

[Bed Decks Palyer]

(~Ephigy of the Gods? - name not really confirmed) :1::w:
Enchantment Creature - Human Soldier
You have hexproof.
2/1

So, is this True Believer that is easier to cast and kill? Hm... Ok, nice card, but I don't think that it will see play, unless my joke deck form the above post becomes real somehow.

[Barook]

So, is this True Believer that is easier to cast and kill? Hm... Ok, nice card, but I don't think that it will see play, unless my joke deck form the above post becomes real somehow.
It's an E-tutor target. Whether or not it ends up playable as a tutor target needs to be tested.

The main question is: In which match-ups would you board it in and grab it over a Canonist?

[Vicar in a tutu]

It's an E-tutor target. Whether or not it ends up playable as a tutor target needs to be tested.

The main question is: In which match-ups would you board it in and grab it over a Canonist?
Maybe against Imperial Painter? It stops Grindstone targeting you. Obviously, the Imperial Painter-player can just "Vindicate" it with a blast-effect, but it creates one more hurdle before Grindstone can do it's thing.

[Lemnear]

True Believer which is tutorable and easier to cast? Hmmmmmm....

3 anti-storm hatebears in a single expansion is kinda nasty. They must really hate storm being part of modern

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Ha, good point with E-Tutor!

http://www.moxes.com/images/articles/ES_-_Aegis_of_the_Gods_-_global.jpg

I don't find the composition appealing. I get it, he goes away from home to fight in the Thermopylaes to save his homeland, wife and children, but yeah, if I'd be in a mood for ogling macho prat, I'd stalk my alpha-male boss.

[Barook]

Maybe against Imperial Painter? It stops Grindstone targeting you. Obviously, the Imperial Painter-player can just "Vindicate" it with a blast-effect, but it creates one more hurdle before Grindstone can do it's thing.
Revoker is better (except against their artifact hate) since it has the same CC/body, but completely shuts down their Grindstone to prevent Welder tricks.


True Believer which is tutorable and easier to cast? Hmmmmmm....

3 anti-storm hatebears in a single expansion is kinda nasty. They must really hate storm being part of modern
You forgot to add "way easier to kill".

I'm wondering what's causing all this hatebear overload in a single small set, though. Maybe they're just seizing the moment. Or maybe they're introducing more hate for Modern, so they don't have to ban shit every B&R announcement since the format can't handle itself.

[rufus]

...
I'm wondering what's causing all this hatebear overload in a single small set, though. Maybe they're just seizing the moment. Or maybe they're introducing more hate for Modern, so they don't have to ban shit every B&R announcement since the format can't handle itself.

Maybe there was some kind of back-loading experiment by R&D this cycle. Two sets of nothing, and now...

Hexproof is a little better than shroud, though I'm not sure how often a player targets him or herself.

[Offler]

Holy fuck, that goes right in my Ghost Council of Orzhova EDH pile. Fits like a glove at a crime scene. Has Zac Hill been reading my diary?? <3 <3 <3

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Athreos-God-of-Passage-Journey-into-Nyx-Spoiler-216x302.jpg

I am considering to replace my monoblack EDH Anowon with this dude... Just for fun :D

Nevertheless

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Worst-Fears-Journey-into-Nyx-216x302.jpeg

Not bad at all in EDH...

[Deckerator]

Ha, good point with E-Tutor!

http://www.moxes.com/images/articles/ES_-_Aegis_of_the_Gods_-_global.jpg

I don't find the composition appealing. I get it, he goes away from home to fight in the Thermopylaes to save his homeland, wife and children, but yeah, if I'd be in a mood for ogling macho prat, I'd stalk my alpha-male boss.



Does this give Protection from TNN? I think so.
That sounds cool. No hand disruption, no burn. I like this small soldier :)


What do you think of Daring Thief?
This sound really good. For example: Change creatures. Against Reanimator or Show and Tell get Griselbrand or Emrakul :)
Maybe there are some spells to help him tap/untap. For a fast permanent change :)

[Finn]

Aegis of the Gods does not give protection from True-Name Nemesis, which never targets a player. It is essentially a True Believer that can be tutored for. Meh. Maybe one in the sb. Maybe.

[Dia_Bot]

I agree with Finn, at the end of the day it's still a narrow x/1 hatebear.

[Megadeus]

Maybe against Imperial Painter? It stops Grindstone targeting you. Obviously, the Imperial Painter-player can just "Vindicate" it with a blast-effect, but it creates one more hurdle before Grindstone can do it's thing.

Could also randomly bring it in vs Liliana.dec. They struggle with shroud effects at times. Not sure if I would play it or not.

Is it just me, or are a lot of these spells like very borderline on whether or not they are good? At least in legacy anyway.

[rufus]

...
What do you think of Daring Thief?

The ability is conditional and slow - that makes it a casual or limited card. (Things like trading your Trinisphere for his Seat of the Synod are possible, but too unlikely to justify playing the thief.)

[Megadeus]

Does this give Protection from TNN? I think so.
That sounds cool. No hand disruption, no burn. I like this small soldier :)


What do you think of Daring Thief?
This sound really good. For example: Change creatures. Against Reanimator or Show and Tell get Griselbrand or Emrakul :)
Maybe there are some spells to help him tap/untap. For a fast permanent change :)

How do you get your man tapped? They SnT, you put in thief, you go to your turn, how are you going to tap, then untap him this turn? Seems worse than simply playing something like Gilded Drake.

[TsumiBand]

A set full of hatebears when the theme is 'enchantments are everywhere' seems like a natural residue of their tendencies to just turn old enchantments into creatures anyway. This just sort of gives them lease to go batshit.

Honestly I think it's fine; I said as much earlier but too often have interesting effects gone onto an enchantment only to be a tempo sink because it doesn't really change the board state. It might look lazy, but really a lot of these would just suck as plain enchantments.

And anyway isn't 'enchantment creature' one of the more vulnerable permanent types anyway? Things like Wear // Tear and Abolish and Tranquility and shit like that would just walk all over they ass. Nova Cleric is the fucking Apophis of Theros. So yeah load em up with hatey, taxey, shitty abilities, they're squishy as hell.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[FTW]

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Worst-Fears-Journey-into-Nyx-216x302.jpeg

Not bad at all in EDH...

Or Modern Tron. This is much easier to cast than Mindslaver.

[Megadeus]

Or Modern Tron. This is much easier to cast than Mindslaver.

Except you can't infinitely recur it with Academy Ruins.

[FTW]

Except you can't infinitely recur it with Academy Ruins.

Yeah but you can cast this to gain a huge advantage when you assemble tron, then maybe set up Mindslaver lock or some other win afterwards. As opposed to needing Tron + a 2nd Tower + 2 "islands" + Ruins, which can be a lot harder to assemble through disruption.

[Megadeus]

Is there even a black tron deck in the format?

[H]

Is there even a black tron deck in the format?

Some RG Tron decks were lightly splashing Black to have access to Slaughter Games.

[Offler]

Is there even a black tron deck in the format?

Not in Modern here, but black EDH is full of Cabal Coffers boosted with Vesuva, or Doubling cube. Blue/Black EDH with Oona, queen of fae is quite commonly using Mindslaver and Word of command.

[Shawon]

Seeing the reincarnation of old cards as "Eidolons" in JIN, I would love to see a Eidolon of Greater Good :)

[Aggro_zombies]

Seeing the reincarnation of old cards as "Eidolons" in JIN, I would love to see a Eidolon of Greater Good :)
Probably not going to happen, since we already have an Eidolon at rare in green that draws cards.

[JPoJohnson]

Seeing the reincarnation of old cards as "Eidolons" in JIN, I would love to see a Eidolon of Greater Good :)

Yup, I've been thinking of the Magus series because off of those

[theillest]

UB
Disciple of Deceit
Creature - Human Rogue
Inspired - Whenever Disciple of Deceit becomes untapped, you may discard a nonland card. If you do, search your library for a card with the same converted mana cost as that card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
1/3

A reoccuring transmute is a cool idea and 2cc is viable. I'm just not sure how to untap these inspired guys.

[rufus]

...

A reoccuring transmute is a cool idea and 2cc is viable. I'm just not sure how to untap these inspired guys.

The obvious choice is to swing, and then untap naturally. (This guy, in particular, seems to be designed to work as a prowl enabler.)

Maze of Ith is a possible card to use with those abilities. Opposition sees occasional mention on these boards. Aura of Dominion is reasonably potent as a repeat untap enabler. Springleaf Drum and Paradise Mantle might work.

[TsumiBand]

UB
Disciple of Deceit
Creature - Human Rogue
Inspired - Whenever Disciple of Deceit becomes untapped, you may discard a nonland card. If you do, search your library for a card with the same converted mana cost as that card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
1/3

A reoccuring transmute is a cool idea and 2cc is viable. I'm just not sure how to untap these inspired guys.

Yeah that guy is a pretty killer uncommon IMHO. I don't know that it needs to be untapped more often than upkeep to be abused; it doesn't seem like it'd be hard to protect in those colors, just swing like you mean it and let the cards you tutor for take care of the board.

This is one of the neatest Fish-enabling cards I've seen in a long time. (meaning not-Merfolk Fish, obv) It has obvious issues with being un-evasive or not quite as thick as some things, but I think for what it does it's pretty cool.

[FieryBalrog]

True Believer which is tutorable and easier to cast? Hmmmmmm....

3 anti-storm hatebears in a single expansion is kinda nasty. They must really hate storm being part of modern

You're complaining that they're printing cards that allow more colors to interact with your strategy? Do Storm players love playing with themselves that much?

Spoiler, the answer is yes. These cards aren't even good.

[Lemnear]

You're complaining that they're printing cards that allow more colors to interact with your strategy? Do Storm players love playing with themselves that much?

Spoiler, the answer is yes. These cards aren't even good.

Yeah because WHITE hasn't an overload on 2cc hatebears, so printing more of those cards in WHITE sure makes sense while green or red barely have anything compareaable. What about viewing the problem from a different angle and realize that printing hatebear after hatebear in WHITE does not fix the issue that might be there in Legacy.

My rant is about 3 fucking storm hatebears in a single, small expansion which is obviously a sign towards Modern.

[bruizar]

Ub tezz with tangle wires might want to get some inspiration from that dude

[TsumiBand]

Yeah because WHITE hasn't an overload on 2cc hatebears, so printing more of those cards in WHITE sure makes sense while green or red barely have anything compareaable. What about getting your head out of your ass and realize that printing hatebear after hatebear in WHITE does not fix the issue that might be there in Legacy.

My rant is about 3 fucking storm hatebears in a single, small expansion which is obviously a sign towards Modern.

Honestly the "White gets hatebears" thing is pretty integral to the color though. There's so little else that actually goes for White weenies, they're just supposed to be these stalwart little bastards that are ready for wtf-ever to happen; being a "protection bear" only goes so far, unless you subvert the whole system and turn into TNN. And used to be the obligatory "2/2 for :w::w:" in every set; some goofy bear with a narrow protection ability that relegated all of them to sideboards and 'metagame calls'.

Poster child example - Silver Knight was maindeck in White Weenie (Angel Stompy, etc) when Goblins was everywhere years ago, and it was good at what it did. The minute the field diversified, Silver Knight and Soltari Priest became less and less attractive.

Apart from Mother of Runes (which people would still contest as an auto-include), the deck "as a concept" struggled to find its quintessential auto-include that transcended the metagame until like Stoneforge Mystic was printed. Perhaps Thalia is the other auto-in now, but historically -- the creature base has always been this kind of deluded bullshitty 2-drop heavy dead zone where you have nothing to pick from but sideboard cards.

So maybe they do the "we love Goblins" thing for a little while and just gift D&T a bunch of tools for a few sets/years/whatever - like they did with Gobbos for a long time, it seemed like they couldn't print a single set without going "oops, look, another SB card for that deck with the strongest tutors and draw in the format". It really is about fucking time though. Sorry-not-sorry if players can't just get 14 Storm unchallenged anymore against Plains cards.

And they have been putting Red hatebears in for a while now, as for Green there is really no compelling reason to give them anything that isn't just a fat trample-beater or something that doesn't give Delver of Secrets penis envy, so what exactly is the nature of the problem here?

[Lemnear]

Honestly the "White gets hatebears" thing is pretty integral to the color though. There's so little else that actually goes for White weenies, they're just supposed to be these stalwart little bastards that are ready for wtf-ever to happen; being a "protection bear" only goes so far, unless you subvert the whole system and turn into TNN. And used to be the obligatory "2/2 for :w::w:" in every set; some goofy bear with a narrow protection ability that relegated all of them to sideboards and 'metagame calls'.

Poster child example - Silver Knight was maindeck in White Weenie (Angel Stompy, etc) when Goblins was everywhere years ago, and it was good at what it did. The minute the field diversified, Silver Knight and Soltari Priest became less and less attractive.

Apart from Mother of Runes (which people would still contest as an auto-include), the deck "as a concept" struggled to find its quintessential auto-include that transcended the metagame until like Stoneforge Mystic was printed. Perhaps Thalia is the other auto-in now, but historically -- the creature base has always been this kind of deluded bullshitty 2-drop heavy dead zone where you have nothing to pick from but sideboard cards.

So maybe they do the "we love Goblins" thing for a little while and just gift D&T a bunch of tools for a few sets/years/whatever - like they did with Gobbos for a long time, it seemed like they couldn't print a single set without going "oops, look, another SB card for that deck with the strongest tutors and draw in the format". It really is about fucking time though. Sorry-not-sorry if players can't just get 14 Storm unchallenged anymore against Plains cards.

And they have been putting Red hatebears in for a while now, as for Green there is really no compelling reason to give them anything that isn't just a fat trample-beater or something that doesn't give Delver of Secrets penis envy, so what exactly is the nature of the problem here?

The point is that this concept doesn not fix the problem, no matter how many times they repeat it

[TsumiBand]

The point is that this concept doesn not fix the problem, no matter how many times they repeat it

They aren't repeating it though, it's starting to coalesce.

There is a huge change in design from Silver Knight to Thalia. I want them to sit in the pocket for a minute. There's a huge difference between 'which color do I want protection from' and 'which game rule do I want to fuck with'.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[bruizar]

Eternal formats will always be addressed with archaic hate. Thats because eternam formats have no natural power creep deflation mechanism. Mistakes can not be undone, only addressed with new cards (unless we want banhammers to fly around). This is not league of legends where u can adjust the parameters of your characters with a patch.

Standard works because its a deflationary system so that power level.can gradually go up again alongside a different vector. Why do you think they make sucky sets??



www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

[phonics]

I feel like with inspired, they really should have printed ways to exploit the ability outside of just untapping at upkeep.

[TsumiBand]

I feel like with inspired, they really should have printed ways to exploit the ability outside of just untapping at upkeep.

There are a few plants like Hidden Strings from Ravnica, and BotG has that Kiora's Follower and Prophet of Kruphix for the double-untap step madness. But yeah there really isn't like a ton of UB ways to just consistently get there.

[rufus]

There are a few plants like Hidden Strings from Ravnica, and BotG has that Kiora's Follower and Prophet of Kruphix for the double-untap step madness. But yeah there really isn't like a ton of UB ways to just consistently get there.

Fatestitcher seems like a possible fit for transmute man, though I'm not sure how far that really gets you unless you're using another outlet of some kind.

I think that R&D realises that heroic is intrinsically terrible, while inspired isn't quite as bad.

[Offler]

UB
Disciple of Deceit
Creature - Human Rogue
Inspired - Whenever Disciple of Deceit becomes untapped, you may discard a nonland card. If you do, search your library for a card with the same converted mana cost as that card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
1/3

A reoccuring transmute is a cool idea and 2cc is viable. I'm just not sure how to untap these inspired guys.


Yeah that guy is a pretty killer uncommon IMHO. I don't know that it needs to be untapped more often than upkeep to be abused; it doesn't seem like it'd be hard to protect in those colors, just swing like you mean it and let the cards you tutor for take care of the board.

This is one of the neatest Fish-enabling cards I've seen in a long time. (meaning not-Merfolk Fish, obv) It has obvious issues with being un-evasive or not quite as thick as some things, but I think for what it does it's pretty cool.

When Sphinx's Disciple was printed I made few comments in my blue Teferi EDH. Its a wizard with nice potential with Azami and Mind Over Matter. It was similar with Arbiter of the Ideal, as this Sphinx can speed up game. But both of these cards - regardless of potential were not usable in my blue deck - they cannot be used to start up infinite combo.

I already used Transmute ability in some of my decks. Commented as overcosted and limited by some Type 2 players around here, but eternal formats... Much more choices...

Tutoring in EDH - especially when you have many combo players around and you are one of them - may be the key for victory. 2 or 3 cards and the game may end very very soon :)

[FTW]

There are a few plants like Hidden Strings from Ravnica, and BotG has that Kiora's Follower and Prophet of Kruphix for the double-untap step madness. But yeah there really isn't like a ton of UB ways to just consistently get there.

LOL I can already see a deck called "BUG Profit" emerging running the typical value spells, planeswalkers, Prophet, this UB dork and some singleton utility spells.

UB Inspired + Prophet + Phenax, God of Durdle = prophet profit

Actually, you could play Reanimator using Disciple to discard a fatty or Phenax to mill yourself into fatties, then Rescue from the Underworld or Whip of Erebos to get it back. Since Rescue costs 5, can pitch either Prophet or Phenax to find it. Seems good in Theros block constructed, maybe in Standard.

For example, if you have Disciple out, you go:
1) T4 Prophet
2) opponent's turn untap
3) EOT Phenax, tapping Disciple and/or others to mill self
4) T5 Untap, Inspired, discarding Phenax/Prophet/other 5cc to find Rescue from the Underworld
5) Tap to mill self more with Prophet + Disciple
6) Rescue back a fatty (e.g. Ashen Raider) FTW

I guess it's a 3-card combo with Phenax + Disciple + Prophet, but you don't actually need the Prophet. It just crazily accelerates your mana and gives you more Inspired. You don't even need the Disciple if you have a reanimation spell in hand. Or Phenax if you have Disciple to bin a fatty from hand instead. Basically, there are a bunch of synergies that let you bin stuff and bring them back. Commune with the Gods and/or Satyr Wayfinder should help set it up too. And Sylvan Caryatid. Deck builds itself.

[FieryBalrog]

Yeah because WHITE hasn't an overload on 2cc hatebears, so printing more of those cards in WHITE sure makes sense while green or red barely have anything compareaable. What about viewing the problem from a different angle and realize that printing hatebear after hatebear in WHITE does not fix the issue that might be there in Legacy.
The matchup is still not positive for dorky white hatebear decks, so why are you complaining again?

"The other guy can play cards I have to actually read and care about!? Fuck this game :cry:"

[rufus]

LOL I can already see a deck called "BUG Profit" emerging running the typical value spells, planeswalkers, Prophet, this UB dork and some singleton utility spells.

UB Inspired + Prophet + Phenax, God of Durdle = prophet profit

Actually, you could play Reanimator using Disciple to discard a fatty or Phenax to mill yourself into fatties, then Rescue from the Underworld or Whip of Erebos to get it back. Since Rescue costs 5, can pitch either Prophet or Phenax to find it. Seems good in Theros block constructed, maybe in Standard.
...


Prophet + Aura of Dominion gives every non-land card in your hand transmute :1:. In principle, the split cards could allow CMC shifts, though they top out at CMC 6.

[FTW]

Prophet + Aura of Dominion gives every non-land card in your hand transmute :1:. In principle, the split cards could allow CMC shifts, though they top out at CMC 6.

Yeah, Aura combos with all the inspired guys. But Disciple doesn't actually generate card advantage and Aura is a bad card in general, so this is pretty much forcing a combo to try to generate marginal utility. You can do that with Pain Seer too and get actual card advantage, but doesn't seem to see play. Might be ok for a UB EDH deck where sticking Aura on Disciple or Arbiter of the Ideal leads to an instant win. Seems bad for Legacy and Modern.

On the flip side, BUG Reanimator is already the best non-aggro deck in Theros Block Constructed and Disciple+Prophet+Phenax makes a sick engine without having to use cards that are marginal on their own. (2-mana 1/3 chump blocks aggro pretty well) I want to see some BUG Profit in Standard.

[rufus]

Yeah, Aura combos with all the inspired guys. But Disciple doesn't actually generate card advantage and Aura is a bad card in general, so this is pretty much forcing a combo to try to generate marginal utility. You can do that with Pain Seer too and get actual card advantage, but doesn't seem to see play. Might be ok for a UB EDH deck where sticking Aura on Disciple or Arbiter of the Ideal leads to an instant win. Seems bad for Legacy and Modern.

Yeah, it's probably not even worthwhile turning King Macar into a killing machine.

[Lemnear]

The matchup is still not positive for dorky white hatebear decks, so why are you complaining again?

"The other guy can play cards I have to actually read and care about!? Fuck this game :cry:"

You have only that single string to play, hu? What about doing something crazy like ... not ignoring my point?

I'll repeat it: i could not give less of a fuck about the next dozen of 2cc white hatebears WotC prints as it is a known angle of attack storm is used to adress. I'd like to see more and different ways to tackle combo and storm in red, green and white so this colors can better interact with combo which isn't so linear and easy to Dodge like hatebears

I have no fucking clue, how you can seriously keep interpreting that as "I don't want other colors than blue/black to stand a chance against combo" other than simply not reading what I wrote

[Megadeus]

At the LGS tonight we were brewing up shitty decks for the Transmute man. We thought of Landstillish. Since you can't discard lands to his ability, you gotta discard 0 drops to find lands off of him. Here was a general idea:

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Standstill
4 Transmute Man
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Dark Confidant

4 Wasteland
4 USeas
4 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishras Factory

The point is essentially to get him down under a Standstiil, and be able to tutor for whatever land is needed to keep you advantage under standstill by tutoring every turn. It's probably completely awful, but it seems like hilarious fun.

[FTW]

You have only that single string to play, hu? What about doing something crazy like ... not ignoring my point?

I'll repeat it: i could not give less of a fuck about the next dozen of 2cc white hatebears WotC prints as it is a known angle of attack storm is used to adress. I'd like to see more and different ways to tackle combo and storm in red, green and white so this colors can better interact with combo which isn't so linear and easy to Dodge like hatebears

I have no fucking clue, how you can seriously keep interpreting that as "I don't want other colors than blue/black to stand a chance against combo" other than simply not reading what I wrote

Wizards printed Beta edition to give Red a chance against combo with 1 critical card that combo decks struggle to beat yet is criminally underplayed by monored aggro decks:
Volcanic Island

[Echelon]

At the LGS tonight we were brewing up shitty decks for the Transmute man. We thought of Landstillish. Since you can't discard lands to his ability, you gotta discard 0 drops to find lands off of him. Here was a general idea:

4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Standstill
4 Transmute Man
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Dark Confidant

4 Wasteland
4 USeas
4 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishras Factory

The point is essentially to get him down under a Standstiil, and be able to tutor for whatever land is needed to keep you advantage under standstill by tutoring every turn. It's probably completely awful, but it seems like hilarious fun.

Perhaps you could use Paradise Mantle (and, to a lesser degree, Springleaf Drum) to keep tapping the DoD. You can also use the multiples of the Mantle to transmute for the lands you want at that point.

I was thinking though - wouldn't this be a nice addition to CounterTop? It would allow you to trade in a cantrip (or Springleaf Drum) for SDT and multiples of the DoD or a Daze for Counterbalance. It would use up 8 slots though and it's still rather susceptible to removal, so it's probably not worth the 8 slots. Admittedly, I don't know a thing about playing Miracles.

[Tyrio]

Wizards printed Beta edition to give Red a chance against combo with 1 critical card that combo decks struggle to beat yet is criminally underplayed by monored aggro decks:
Volcanic Island


http://i.imgur.com/himZD0M.gif

[LeoCop 90]

Yeah because WHITE hasn't an overload on 2cc hatebears, so printing more of those cards in WHITE sure makes sense while green or red barely have anything compareaable. What about viewing the problem from a different angle and realize that printing hatebear after hatebear in WHITE does not fix the issue that might be there in Legacy.

Totally agree


Honestly the "White gets hatebears" thing is pretty integral to the color though.

The color pie needs to evolve. The whole concept of color pie involves that the only competitive colors can be black and blue because blue can interfere with the stack and black can interfere with the hand. Then there is white, which at least have hatebears. Then there are red and green, which have nothing. I'm glad they printed pyrostatic pillar on legs, but i think that red should have something that does more than dealing damage... after all, pyrostatic pillar has never been a very good card (especially if you compare it with the impact on the game that a thorn of amethyst/thalia has).

[Barook]

The color pie needs to evolve. The whole concept of color pie involves that the only competitive colors can be black and blue because blue can interfere with the stack and black can interfere with the hand. Then there is white, which at least have hatebears. Then there are red and green, which have nothing. I'm glad they printed pyrostatic pillar on legs, but i think that red should have something that does more than dealing damage... after all, pyrostatic pillar has never been a very good card (especially if you compare it with the impact on the game that a thorn of amethyst/thalia has).
And that part is pretty sad, considering how all the tools already exist in said color, but Wizards does't use it.

Need it interact better with stack? Make more hatebears with flash. Spririt of the Labyrinth would have been much more interesting as a flash creature (even if it had nerved stats).

Same goes for green. The new Hexproof guy would have been much more interesting in green since it didn't have the effect yet. A green Stony Silence/Null Rod guy, etc.

Red in general suffers from the "How to make a card red? HURR, DIRECT DAMAGE!"-syndrom. That's one of the reasons I like the new double striking card drawer. And I'm still waiting for a red hatebear that burns so hard that it actually hurts. Where is my anti-S&T red hatebear that nukes players for 15/8 when Emrakul/Griselbrand are cheated into play?

[Offler]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/jou/aasd7y23m34co/hy0nIApPWx_EN.jpg

Ok. 3rd Grave pact for my Anowon deck, this time with Flash...

[EpicLevelCommoner]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/jou/aasd7y23m34co/uFKhXtKWMa_EN.jpg

Anyone else think that Eternal Witness could have fit here instead from both a flavor and mechanic standpoint?

[TsumiBand]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/jou/aasd7y23m34co/uFKhXtKWMa_EN.jpg

Anyone else think that Eternal Witness could have fit here instead from both a flavor and mechanic standpoint?

Nah. I like this guy.

Not in a "broken and makes new decks" way, just in a "I like this guy" way.


The color pie needs to evolve. The whole concept of color pie involves that the only competitive colors can be black and blue because blue can interfere with the stack and black can interfere with the hand. Then there is white, which at least have hatebears. Then there are red and green, which have nothing. I'm glad they printed pyrostatic pillar on legs, but i think that red should have something that does more than dealing damage... after all, pyrostatic pillar has never been a very good card (especially if you compare it with the impact on the game that a thorn of amethyst/thalia has).

I'm not saying the execution is perfect, in fact I'll still be the first guy to bitch that Blue has entitlement issues. But also just giving all the colors Blue stuffs or White stuffs doesn't change the game, it just means that there are more Blue cards. If it sucks when Snapcaster Mage isn't Red, why would it be any different when other colors yank from each other's bag of tricks? That's the same problem in reverse -- just look at Black's identity crisis for the last few years.

It's true that a lot of Red's identity is tied up in things that aren't as competitive as just card draw and counters. Slow-rolling a life total via Pyrostatic Pillar isn't amazing and the closest they come to printing "answer cards" is stuff like Skullcrack, which I admit is unfortunate. And it's been a really long time since there was a worthwhile Goblin that saw print - maybe Legion Loyalist, but probably not. Not sure what kind of 'hate' you're looking to see, but Green and Red aren't really strong in the "player's can't _____" category, and I guess I don't know why giving it to them is better in the long view. Colors just mimicking each other's best effects is boring and lame and I think just produces more reasons to play "the best color" because as long as everyone's sharing effects anyway, may as well go with the color that shares effects AND draws a fuckton of cards, right?

[rufus]

...
I'm not saying the execution is perfect, in fact I'll still be the first guy to bitch that Blue has entitlement issues. But also just giving all the colors Blue stuffs or White stuffs doesn't change the game, it just means that there are more Blue cards. If it sucks when Snapcaster Mage isn't Red, why would it be any different when other colors yank from each other's bag of tricks? That's the same problem in reverse -- just look at Black's identity crisis for the last few years....

Perhaps, but, at the same time, there's an issue when blue's got an effective monopoly on cards that interact with the stack directly while all the colors share the ability to interact with the other zones. I think R&D could do much better in that particular aspect of things.

I like Nyx Weaver - its a weak, but interesting, card.

[Aggro_zombies]

Nyx Weaver is the true black-green God.

[Offler]

http://mythicspoiler.com/nyx/cards/deicide.jpg

Goes directly to my metal collection, right next to Iron Maiden and Venom.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/nyx/cards/deicide.jpg

Goes directly to my metal collection, right next to Iron Maiden and Venom.
Even if the card itself isn't that great, I like the art and the flavor.

[nedleeds]

http://mythicspoiler.com/nyx/cards/deicide.jpg

Goes directly to my metal collection, right next to Iron Maiden and Venom.

and Slayers' Stronghold

[nedleeds]

Ub tezz with tangle wires might want to get some inspiration from that dude

He's not an artifact. I've already got Transmute, Metamorph, Sculpting Steel and Trading Post to go nuts with Tangle Wire. That card is shit.

[theillest]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/56/314/635332866037951311.jpeg o ring that just targets opponents stuff

[Megadeus]

So do the new wordings on these rehashes prevent etb trigger on the stack tricks that ORing and Tidehollow Sciller enable?

[Finn]

...blue's got an effective monopoly on cards that interact with the stack directly while all the colors share the ability to interact with the other zones. I think R&D could do much better...This is a remarkably insightful statement. I have been thinking about it. For Standard and Block, you don't have all that much stack interaction. Ditto for Alpha. But it seems that eternal formats have far more sophisticated engines possible. And wider abilities are necessary for nonblue colors to interact with the rather large percentage of the formats that rely on few permanents. I mean to design stuff that would not have much impact in Standard, but that helps nonblue colors interact with the stack. Here are some quick examples.

Brain Fart
BB
Instant
Target player exiles a non-artifact, non-enchantment card from his/her hand. If that player has no cards in hand, exile all non-artifact, non-enchantment spells from the stack instead. Search those spells' owners libraries for all copies of all spells exiled by Brain Fart and exile them.
--------
Cough Syrup
RR
Instant
Cough Syrup deals 1 damage to target creature or player. If a non-enchantment spell is on the stack, Cough Syrup deals an additional amount of damage to the target equal to that spell's converted mana cost.
--------
Mad Cow Disease
WW
Instant
Shuffle target creature, artifact, planeswalker, or enchantment spell into its owner's library. That player gains 4 life.
---------
WTF
GG
Instant
Reveal your hand. Counter target noncreature spell that has the same converted mana cost as a green permanent you control or a green spell in your hand.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

http://mythicspoiler.com/nyx/cards/deicide.jpg
I seriously hate this card. Really, ever since Innistrad block, WotC start to annoy me.

[Shawon]

So do the new wordings on these rehashes prevent etb trigger on the stack tricks that ORing and Tidehollow Sciller enable?

Yes. Furthermore, you can't target your own nonland permanents with the fixed O-Ring, not that it was frequently relevant anyway.

[TsumiBand]

I like Nyx Weaver - its a weak, but interesting, card.

What's weak about Threshold on turn 3? Werebear is ONLINE

[Aggro_zombies]

So do the new wordings on these rehashes prevent etb trigger on the stack tricks that ORing and Tidehollow Sciller enable?
Yes.

I spoke to Ken Nagle during a gunslinging event at GP Oakland and he said that R&D was moving explicitly in this direction with cards because it was more intuitive for players. My counterarguments - fruitless, of course - are that:

1) Having two separate triggers does not impact game play the vast majority of the time;

2) Abusing the triggers provides a good teaching moment for new players, allowing you to explain the nuances of the stack;

3) Shenanigans of this sort appeal to a certain demographic of players who enjoy finding and exploiting loopholes.

However, in the end, the intent of cards like this is that they are temporary removal spells that allow you to get your cards back if you can interact with the prison. While there is certainly upside to pursuing Oblivion Ring-style wordings, there's also something to be argued for simplicity - namely, the overwhelming propensity of new players to assume you're bullshitting them when you argue that sacrificing your Tidehollow Sculler before the trigger resolves lets you exile their card forever. Consequently, we're getting "fixed" (that is, worse) Oblivion Rings and Mesmeric Fiends in this set to conform to the new requirement for cards to act in basically the way you'd think they act by casually reading them.

[Megadeus]

Well that's stupid. Isn't breaking the conventional rules of the game the whole point?

[nedleeds]

It's not 'worse' in enchantress.

[morgan_coke]

I wish they'd print stuff like:

WW
Enchantment
Flash
When ~ enters the battlefield, exile target spell. When ~ leaves the battlefield, return that spell to the stack.

Fit's a lot of what white already does, allows it to interact with the stack.

Or for Red (I'll preface this by saying Remand should absolutely have been Red, just like Snapcaster)

RR
Instant
Gain control of target instant or sorcery spell. If that spell would add mana to a mana pool or draw cards, you do that instead.

Not the right wording, but you get the idea. I'd also be fine with a Remand variant with damage rather than card draw attached. These are spells that fit those colors' identities but also allow stack interaction. I mean, it's not that freaking hard wizards.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Yes.
I get, and largely agree with your point. But I don't mind WotC fixing cards so they work 'as intended'. If Standard is the gateway format then the interactions should be simplish and intuitive.

Legacy (more realistically Modern) still has access to the 'broken' version. Very few decks would want 8x O-Ring anyway.


Does the fixed version also correct the infinite loop that causes a draw if there are 3 O-Rings and no other non-land permanents? I'm pretty sure 'an opponent controls' fixes that.

[Aggro_zombies]

Well that's stupid. Isn't breaking the conventional rules of the game the whole point?
Yes and no. Rule-breaking is a resource as much as anything else is. In this case, because the rules surrounding Oblivion Ring essentially didn't matter unless you specifically set out to break them, R&D may have just decided it was better to save the shenanigans for more fun interactions.

[bruizar]

I wish they'd print stuff like:

WW
Enchantment
Flash
When ~ enters the battlefield, exile target spell. When ~ leaves the battlefield, return that spell to the stack.

Fit's a lot of what white already does, allows it to interact with the stack.

Or for Red (I'll preface this by saying Remand should absolutely have been Red, just like Snapcaster)

RR
Instant
Gain control of target instant or sorcery spell. If that spell would add mana to a mana pool or draw cards, you do that instead.

Not the right wording, but you get the idea. I'd also be fine with a Remand variant with damage rather than card draw attached. These are spells that fit those colors' identities but also allow stack interaction. I mean, it's not that freaking hard wizards.

I hope wotc is listening. It would be so awesome to Flickerwisp this enchantment and mess up the stack. :D Also, Riptide Chimera soft lock!

[Aggro_zombies]

The white card should probably just have you cast the exiled spell again without paying its mana cost. It would cause fewer headaches with, say, keeping track of chosen modes, values for X, and what to do if some or all of the spell's targets have disappeared in the interim.

That said, in my dream world, the colors would have the following ways to deal with instants and sorceries:

Blue: Hard counters, copying
White: Soft counters (like Mana Tithe), temporary counters (like Remand) and possibly morgan_coke's idea of Oblivion Rings for spells
Black: Discard, extraction effects
Red: Copying, redirecting, gaining control of spells, Polymorphing spells (something like Chaos Warp, but locking in the card type)
Green: hexproof - as the color with the best ways to build its board, having the worst stack interactions seems like a fair trade

But I don't think this is the direction they want to go.

[TsumiBand]

Yes and no. Rule-breaking is a resource as much as anything else is. In this case, because the rules surrounding Oblivion Ring essentially didn't matter unless you specifically set out to break them, R&D may have just decided it was better to save the shenanigans for more fun interactions.

It's super-dumb though, because they used to hype these kinds of interactions as neat tricks on the mothership.

Honestly it's kind of their own fault, sort of? I mean, the big "intent-breaker" that comes to mind was Worldgorger Dragon; people saw a "stupid beater with a drawback" but it was most successfully used as a combo piece with Animate Dead. While it broke the spirit of its intention, it didn't violate the letter -- RFG all the things when it comes into play, and then return them on exit.

And I know that they look counter-intuitive, and for every person that got it on first glance the claimthere are many others (from the kitchen table to competitive players, if self-testimonials are to be believed) that never grokked it. I think it's really unfortunate that they want to phase this out of the game - though strictly speaking, it does allow for a bit less text on the card, so that's always a plus.

I dunno, I really try not to be that guy, but this change in wording in particular always feels like pandering to noobs. It's like taking Dragon Punches out of Street Fighter because the Z-shaped movement on the joystick is too hard unless you're on your favorite side of the screen. :/

[Aggro_zombies]

I understand that point of view, and as someone who enjoys finding and exploiting these sorts of loopholes, I do feel your pain.

On the other hand, I think the idea here is that R&D wants Magic to be less about technical minutiae and more about good play. It's possible to have complexity in the game arise not through exploiting wordings but through playing cards off of each other (yes, I am aware that exploiting word loopholes like those on Fiend Hunter required other cards). If cards do basically what they say, the focus is less on "How can I exploit this?" and more "How can I put this to good use?" which are different questions despite similar wordings.

At the end of the day, people can still play with Oblivion Ring and Mesmeric Fiend if they want to - this isn't changing the Comp Rules to "fix" these cards. They're just making future cards work essentially the way you'd think they'd work based on reading the text.

EDIT: Although this current batch of cards doesn't really show it, this also potentially means they can balance future effects like this without having to worry about other cards in the environment turning them into hard removal spells. They may at some point decide to push the power level of these effects since removing the loophole makes the cards much easier to interact with if you're on the receiving end of them.

[bruizar]

exploiting a mechanic is good because it lets the player feel smarter than his peers or the game designers. Ego-stroking is a good tactic to let people part with their money, especially for the second market. Everyone dreams of breaking some obscure old card like energy tap, nether void, donate, serra's sanctum, island sanctuary or fucking kobolds. Why not cater to that drift? Its called community management..

Say you've found this interaction that no one else discovered yet... What do you do? You buy a bunch of them, then go to the forums and claim credit for your discovery, or you buy a bunch of them and go win tournaments. Either way, its ego-driven behavior induced by the fact that you have secret information. Whats the first thing people do when they hear a secret? That's right, tell their friends.. Social status ->bigger ego

[Aggro_zombies]

exploiting a mechanic is good because it lets the player feel smarter than his peers or the game designers. Ego-stroking is a good tactic to let people part with their money, especially for the second market. Everyone dreams of breaking some obscure old card like energy tap, nether void, donate, serra's sanctum, island sanctuary or fucking kobolds. Why not cater to that drift? Its called community management..
Because once you know how the loophole works, there's nothing more to discover. Any card that comes out with the same sort of wording is exploitable in exactly the same way. It's sort of like stacking combat damage: once you knew you could stack damage and then sac your guy for value, there was very rarely a reason to do anything else. It closed off some interesting strategic decisions because it was simply the best option.

[bruizar]

Because once you know how the loophole works, there's nothing more to discover. Any card that comes out with the same sort of wording is exploitable in exactly the same way. It's sort of like stacking combat damage: once you knew you could stack damage and then sac your guy for value, there was very rarely a reason to do anything else. It closed off some interesting strategic decisions because it was simply the best option.

Not necessarily so though. Yes in this particular example that is true, but take bunny hopping in quake 2. New jumps were constantly being discovered even though it all came from the same unintended serendipitous game mechanic. Those are the ones that are good for the game.

[Mewens]

I'm with Aggro_zombies on the complexity thing.

There's definitely a space for shenanigans, and it's something of a sacred space -- I think the game's better when there's an occasional blind-side moment that occurs from a foreseeable use of a card. I managed to sneak a Words of Wilding onto the board a few weeks ago vs. a RIP/Helm deck; that was the kind of blind side that's good for the game.

The trick is to make it feel like a fair corner-case usage, which means attempting to keep players' rules expectations as congruent as possible. The reason "damage on the stack?" often felt so dirty is because the players impacted by it literally had no clue to even know that it was a concern; you could have two strategically minded players who were more-or-less playing two different games when it came to the red zone.

Granted, O-Ring and Mesmeric Fiend have feet in both those camps, but how much payoff do we actually get for it? It's potentially a lot of confusion, and the upside is, what, some 18 intentional O-Ring-driven draws? A 2- or 3-mana, 2-card combo that mimics Swords to Plowshares? If we're going to add these kinds of tricks to the game, they really oughta a) actually feature choices (the parallax cards are really only good when played one way, for example) and b) they oughta have a lot of payoff for using them in a weird way.

[Megadeus]

Sure, but some of us want to build shitty decks where we abuse these triggers. Like where I want to sacrifice an oring with the trigger on the stack to my greater gargadon or something

[Barook]

Most people here probably like the complexer variant better since it's actually rewarding to do so while not game-breaking.

But we're not their target demograph - not anymore.

Their target demograph is now the one that drowls while playing ridiculous 6+ mana creatures that also give you a blowjob whenever they get tapped.

[The Big Ragu]

Won't see play in Legacy (obviously), but I just wanted to say that Deicide is so far my favorite card in the set. The thing is practically oozing with flavor. Extremely well designed card. I love it.

[Rush80]

Check the mini sun Titan, tethmos high priest, first thought may work in a punishing bears deck

[bruizar]

Check the mini sun Titan, tethmos high priest, first thought may work in a punishing bears deck

Darkblast loves this. Mills you and its cheap. Deadguy Ale variants should take a look at it imo

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/56/329/635333442117502007.jpeg

[Barook]

Darkblast loves this. Mills you and its cheap. Deadguy Ale variants should take a look at it imo

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/56/329/635333442117502007.jpeg
Darkblast sounds interesting, especially since it requires less setup than the PF engine.

Question is: What do you actually want to it? Utility creatures like Bob, SFM and the likes?

How about adding Entomb and a green splash for DRS activations and a single Life from the Loam?

[bruizar]

Darkblast sounds interesting, especially since it requires less setup than the PF engine.

Question is: What do you actually want to it? Utility creatures like Bob, SFM and the likes?

How about adding Entomb and a green splash for DRS activations and a single Life from the Loam?

Most relevant creature is ofcourse tarmogoyf. But other than that, tidehollowsculler and confidant in bw mostly.

getting back qasali pridemage can also be pretty handy depending on the.match up. Also, anything that sacks for value or does not have a manacost at all. (Dryad arbor for example). Baleful strix recursion is also fine since it cantrips your dead draw back.

. Getting back Snapcaster mage means you basically get back anything

Loam is a decent card but if im pulling the trigger on entomb it better provide multiple ways to gain advantage. I like entomb with lich, darkblast, loam, unburial rites / bomb package though

[TsumiBand]

Darkblast loves this. Mills you and its cheap. Deadguy Ale variants should take a look at it imo

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/56/329/635333442117502007.jpeg

This is like the nearest-miss near miss almost-awesome White Weenie card I've seen in a long time, and I can't decide if it's cool as shit or just drrrrb.

On one hand, the Unearth effect has gone long underplayed. Seriously; look at the ways in which Soul Sisters actually makes cards like Soul Warden playable off of Proclamation of Rebirth. Think of the awesomeness of getting back a Brimaz or some junk (if it wasn't for stupid exile or tuck being the favored kill method of Old Eternal formats). To just have the shit on tap is fantastic. This is a kind of pressure that I've wanted the deck to have for a long time.

On the other hand, in a color without a strong tribal alignment, it's actually in a really stupid tribe (Cats? Clerics? buh) so it has the White problem of having no cards just lying around that "oops" it into more synergy than it ought to have. It also managed to get Heroic instead of Inspired, which is a goddamn shame - how sick would the shit be to toss out a small-drop guy, then cast Therapy, drop Cat Cleric guy, sac small-drop to Therapy, then untap and get it back. You could walk all over their hand in the mid-late game. Instead I gotta go digging through Gatherer wondering if there's a stronger card than Darkblast to throw at my own guy. Orzhov Charm? Boros Charm? Um... some junk with Rebound? Cloudshift? Some terribad Aura? Ugh Baaaaaaaallllllllllllllllls.

I like it, it just barely missed the "clearly you build around me" mark and so I have no idea if it is a thing or not. Bah

[Darkenslight]

This is like the nearest-miss near miss almost-awesome White Weenie card I've seen in a long time, and I can't decide if it's cool as shit or just drrrrb.

On one hand, the Unearth effect has gone long underplayed. Seriously; look at the ways in which Soul Sisters actually makes cards like Soul Warden playable off of Proclamation of Rebirth. Think of the awesomeness of getting back a Brimaz or some junk (if it wasn't for stupid exile or tuck being the favored kill method of Old Eternal formats). To just have the shit on tap is fantastic. This is a kind of pressure that I've wanted the deck to have for a long time.

On the other hand, in a color without a strong tribal alignment, it's actually in a really stupid tribe (Cats? Clerics? buh) so it has the White problem of having no cards just lying around that "oops" it into more synergy than it ought to have. It also managed to get Heroic instead of Inspired, which is a goddamn shame - how sick would the shit be to toss out a small-drop guy, then cast Therapy, drop Cat Cleric guy, sac small-drop to Therapy, then untap and get it back. You could walk all over their hand in the mid-late game. Instead I gotta go digging through Gatherer wondering if there's a stronger card than Darkblast to throw at my own guy. Orzhov Charm? Boros Charm? Um... some junk with Rebound? Cloudshift? Some terribad Aura? Ugh Baaaaaaaallllllllllllllllls.

I like it, it just barely missed the "clearly you build around me" mark and so I have no idea if it is a thing or not. Bah

Mono-White Martyr? Have a ton of protection spells, such as Gods Willing, play Martyr of Sands and a ton of cheap white cards like Suture Priest and go Wyrd.

EDIT: it's just a shame it didn't just say 'card' rather than 'creature card', because that would have been hilarious in context.

[Barook]

Full set is spoiled now. Rest is Limited filler.

Overall, a pretty interesting set and much better than all the crap we got since Gatecrash.

How many of those cards are Legacy-viable, we have to see, but there are certainly a few cards that could make the cut.

[bruizar]

Full set is spoiled now. Rest is Limited filler.

Overall, a pretty interesting set and much better than all the crap we got since Gatecrash.

How many of those cards are Legacy-viable, we have to see, but there are certainly a few cards that could make the cut.

From all the cards in the set, the card I like most is... Spite of Mogis... 1 mana removal with scry. Seems like an upgraded version of Ghastly Demise.

[Plm]

I do like sigiled skink, not legacy playable but red getting some kind of library manipulation is nice.

Otherwise, not so much enchantments in this enchantment block...

[Adryan]

I really like the set. The flavor is epic and i get a legacy goodie for my Miracle SB: Keranos.

Does anyone know why Innistrad was the last set with an amazing Legacy powerlevel? I mean RTR still had some goodies, but it's still a lot weaker than Innistrad.

Is the time for Thalia, Snapcaster Mage etc. cards in normal sets just over?

[FTW]

I really like the set. The flavor is epic and i get a legacy goodie for my Miracle SB: Keranos.

Does anyone know why Innistrad was the last set with an amazing Legacy powerlevel? I mean RTR still had some goodies, but it's still a lot weaker than Innistrad.

Is the time for Thalia, Snapcaster Mage etc. cards in normal sets just over?

I don't know. It's a good thing R2R block was garbage and nobody pays weird guild jank like Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay and Rest in Peace. With Snapcaster Mage easily the best creature in the format, it just feels like they haven't throw us Legacy players any bones since.

[rufus]

...
On the other hand, I think the idea here is that R&D wants Magic to be less about technical minutiae and more about good play. It's possible to have complexity in the game arise not through exploiting wordings but through playing cards off of each other (yes, I am aware that exploiting word loopholes like those on Fiend Hunter required other cards). If cards do basically what they say, the focus is less on "How can I exploit this?" and more "How can I put this to good use?" which are different questions despite similar wordings. ...

It seems a little strange to see the template change for Banishing Light in the same set as Skybind which, while it won't perma-exile has timing interactions more like O-ring.

[Adryan]

I don't know. It's a good thing R2R block was garbage and nobody pays weird guild jank like Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay and Rest in Peace. With Snapcaster Mage easily the best creature in the format, it just feels like they haven't throw us Legacy players any bones since.

Yeah you genius.... but you do realize that Innistrad had a lot more Legacy cards than RTR block?

[FTW]

Yeah you genius.... but you do realize that Innistrad had a lot more Legacy cards than RTR block?

Of course. But considering the big impact DRS and AD had on Legacy, clearly WotC hasn't forgotten us since Innistrad.

I wouldn't read too much into the number of playables from a block that was supposed to be pseudo-Kamigawa.They probably wanted to cool it after a combination of 5 consecutive sets (NPH, Inn block, R2R) significantly changed Legacy. Delver, Batterskull, Mental Misstep, Thalia, Griselbrand, Miracles, Probe, DRS, AD, RiP.... the format is so radically different now than before those cards were printed. And that was over the span of 1.5 years. I think that was the exception rather than the norm. Previous sets yielded a few playables but didn't radically change much.

[Shawon]

Anyone else surprised that Reprisal got reprinted (with regards to Standard)?

[TsumiBand]

Of course. But considering the big impact DRS and AD had on Legacy, clearly WotC hasn't forgotten us since Innistrad.

I wouldn't read too much into the number of playables from a block that was supposed to be pseudo-Kamigawa.They probably wanted to cool it after a combination of 5 consecutive sets (NPH, Inn block, R2R) significantly changed Legacy. Delver, Batterskull, Mental Misstep, Thalia, Griselbrand, Miracles, Probe, DRS, AD, RiP.... the format is so radically different now than before those cards were printed. And that was over the span of 1.5 years. I think that was the exception rather than the norm. Previous sets yielded a few playables but didn't radically change much.

Indeed. I don't even think enough time passed from Innistrad to Gatecrash to now for people to really invoke "end of an era" language.

Abrupt Decay is wonderfully subversive in its execution; it maxes out where Legacy typically prefers to stop anyway, it doesn't cow-tow to Force of Will, and it gives a long passed-over color combination enough gas to be a deck (in concert with DRS). Meanwhile in Standard, people are all about getting to 4 and playing their big-assed threats anyway, so AD naturally slumps off and is a good card but not busted.

It's probably what the future of Legacy 'support' looks like; printing cards that sit in a particular pocket where they have a natural power fall-off in Standard/Modern but do good things in Legacy. Not an easy trick - in this case, well done, IMHO.

The only downside is that you can't just print a bunch of Smother-esque cards that are bound by CMCs without being really obvious, but at least for this particular venture, I'd call it a win.

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

9/10- Would Draft

[MGB]

Why is nobody talking about Kruphix's Insight? This card is extremely good! 2G to get a better Impulse AND draw THREE! If you can play a deck that runs 28+ enchantments this card is crazy good. I mean, there already is Enchantress but this could fit into a new deck with a bunch of Hidden cards or an Enchantment combo-control deck that stalls with Ice Cage or ORing and stuff and then wins with Defense of the Heart or Replenish or something.

This might already be one of the five best draw spells in Legacy!

[Arsenal]

Lots of nice goodies for Cube/EDH and looks to be fairly draftable as well. Nothing much for Legacy, but there rarely is in 3rd sets.

[TsumiBand]

Why is nobody talking about Kruphix's Insight? This card is extremely good! 2G to get a better Impulse AND draw THREE! If you can play a deck that runs 28+ enchantments this card is crazy good. I mean, there already is Enchantress but this could fit into a new deck with a bunch of Hidden cards or an Enchantment combo-control deck that stalls with Ice Cage or ORing and stuff and then wins with Defense of the Heart or Replenish or something.

This might already be one of the five best draw spells in Legacy!

It's not exactly Impulse though, right -- it's a Sorcery, it costs 3 not 2, it bins the cards instead of sending them to the bottom of the library. And Green has done this in so many words in a few different varieties; look at Lead the Stampede which sees no play -- and with that one you *might* just grip every last card you reveal.

I don't know that there's a critical mass for Enchantment Creatures + Enchantments that creates an optimal environment for this kind of card. Perhaps there's some stronger selections that are (or will prove to be) a cut above, and then one could justify such a spell, but at present in Legacy it probably isn't as good as just splashing Blue. vOv

[FTW]

Why is nobody talking about Kruphix's Insight? This card is extremely good! 2G to get a better Impulse AND draw THREE! If you can play a deck that runs 28+ enchantments this card is crazy good. I mean, there already is Enchantress but this could fit into a new deck with a bunch of Hidden cards or an Enchantment combo-control deck that stalls with Ice Cage or ORing and stuff and then wins with Defense of the Heart or Replenish or something.

This might already be one of the five best draw spells in Legacy!

See the 2 threads devoted to it under "New and Developmental". RTFF

[Antonius]

lands has a vested interest in both filling the graveyard and digging up enchantments.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Are we seriously crying over the term Deicide being used? As if magic hasn't dabbled into the occult when it comes to card design and such? SHould we sue? Publicly complain? Whats is this 1994? WHat are we concerned parents?
I dislike the card. I see you're really hurt by this statement of mine, but time will heal it.

[Scott]

Bed Decks Palyer, is it suitably White to you if you consider the fact that it can exile Gods like Erebos, God of the Dead and Mogis, God of Slaughter? Then it's more like what you were talking about before, with Rebels; a violent and iconoclastic act, but one rooted in defense and justness. Just wondering.

[Gheizen64]

I don't have a perfect knowledge of metaMagic, so I can hardly comment on MMQ Rebels, however I guess they're not evil. Someone who defends his wife, children, house and crops from the enemy, be it alien soldiers or his own government, might be called rebel, yet it doesn't mean his cause is unjust or... evil.

While it might be silly to comment on the evil presence in an occult-inspired fantasy game, I still think that Magic would only gain would there be far less cruelty, obscenity and such. I do understand why I must stand this in color black, as the MtG colors are not only distinguishing factors, but contrary to e.g. chess pieces (where being black doesn't mean anything beyond being under particular's player control), MtG colors and pieces got their own (im)moral meaning/message and they represent certain ideas. I dislike that particular ideas leak to white, as it spoils the color and shrinks the space of those who (like me) don't feel like they wish to dabble in filth.

Deicide is a term with a real-life meaning, it's borrowed from what's imho a central religious experience of humankind, and it's definitely an evil deed. Wizards (should) know that, the very quote admits it, and they even timed it for Easter, coincidence or not. I dislike the card, and they should not have created it.

Don't respect it, if you wish, but at least reflect it.

Is this 2014? Fundamentalist on MTG boards? Wtf.

[rxavage]

Is this 2014? Fundamentalist on MTG boards? Wtf.

I don't understand why anyone who believe in god/ a god would be insulted over the word deicide or the idea of killing god. A god that could be killed isn't much of a god is it?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Why so much flak? If you can't stand other people's opinions, what's the point of joining a discussion boards?
I'd love if MtG would be nicer, think Lorwyn block. Is this a reason enough for an outburst? More patience, dudes, lest you'll become intolerant fundamentalists.


Bed Decks Palyer, is it suitably White to you if you consider the fact that it can exile Gods like Erebos, God of the Dead and Mogis, God of Slaughter? Then it's more like what you were talking about before, with Rebels; a violent and iconoclastic act, but one rooted in defense and justness. Just wondering.
Oh well, that's some good point. It makes more sense now.

[bruizar]

I don't understand why anyone who believe in god/ a god would be insulted over the word deicide or the idea of killing god. A god that could be killed isn't much of a god is it?

This is a typical atheist or agnostic response. You don't have to get it, just respect it. Anyone that has experienced religious moments, whether the person is religious or not, sees the world in a different, more meaningful light. The constant thrashing of religions is a testimony to how anti-empathic we have become as a collective. This lack of empathy can't be reconciled with the notion that source players love legacy for its adult demographic.

[rxavage]

This is a typical atheist or agnostic response. You don't have to get it, just respect it. Anyone that has experienced religious moments, whether the person is religious or not, sees the world in a different, more meaningful light. The constant thrashing of religions is a testimony to how anti-empathic we have become as a collective. This lack of empathy can't be reconciled with the notion that source players love legacy for its adult demographic.


Well, consider it a typical response of an atheist given from a believer.

[bruizar]

Well, consider it a typical response of an atheist given from a believer.

My apologies. I'm sure you know that everyone experiences his religion in his own way. It's never nice to get the feeling that someone is stepping over the things you value. I guess this is me venting the issue I have with how religion is constantly ridiculed today.

[Megadeus]

I just think people getting angry over the name of a magic card is Retarded

[rxavage]

I guess this is me venting the issue I have with how religion is constantly ridiculed today.


I think that's more the issue than the name of a card. It's funny when most people claim science as a reason for the non-existence of god, when a lot of scientists see it as an affirmation. Anyways, I digress, this is not the place for this discussion.

[Lemnear]

It's funny when most people claim science as a reason for the non-existence of god, when a lot of scientists see it as an affirmation.

Barely ever read such a nonsense which is also totally off topic. Name me one renowned scientist who claims there is a scientific proof for "god".

In this world there is space for both, "knowing" and "believing". The idea of those being the same is dangerous

[rxavage]

Barely ever read such a nonsense which is also totally off topic. Name me one renowned scientist who claims there is a scientific proof for "god".

In this world there is space for both, "knowing" and "believing". The idea of those being the same is dangerous


I think you misunderstand, no one said scientific proof. I wanted to keep my post brief so it may be misleading.

[Tyrio]

Deicide means to kill a god right? Not necessarily God, but a god. In this case, as the art very clearly shows, that god is Xenagos, a character who was previously a hedonistic satyr and now a being drunk with power who sets out to burn Theros to the ground. If the card was simply a reprint of Neck Snap and depicted Elspeth Wonder Woman-ing Xenagos there'd be no controversy right? It's all about context, and this is a Greek-themed set filled with gods and demons depicted as fictional characters. If you remember your Greek mythology, you'll note that there are a handful of gods that do bite the dust. Pan, a satyr god, is notably among those few.

It's not like they printed Deicide in a core-set and showed some demon eviscerating some priests in a church or something.

The color wheel also isn't as black and white (hah) as you seem to envision it either. MaRo's fond of writing articles about the philosophy of the wheel and each color has it's share of good and evil.

[Adryan]

I really fail to see why any religious person should have a problem with card names.

F.ex the Gods of Theros don't have the same power the god of the bible is proposed to have. So i don't see any blasphemy here. To me fundamentalist and atheist people are on the same level of stupidity. They both claim things that cannot be proven and are both unscientific. But that's offtopic....

[Mewens]

To be fair, "deicide" is Medieval Latin. It was almost certainly coined to refer specifically to the crucifixion of Christ; in that light, I can see why someone would be upset at casual usage of the word. (As I alluded to earlier, I would understand consternation over the usage of the word "God" on these cards, too. ... or Heliod's depiction, along with his spear, or a dozen other such things.)

I think it's also fair to expect that posting multiple paragraphs-long rants about your personal and cultural art-related frustrations would receive some backlash at The Source.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I think you misunderstand, no one said scientific proof. I wanted to keep my post brief so it may be misleading.

Very few seem to get this. A deity is not so much a supernatural entity as they are a metaphysical entity. Which means they are outside the physical universe, which is all we as physical entities can observe. Since science is based on observation and experimentation, we cannot prove nor disprove the existence of any deity or other metaphysical entity.

Now that I said that, let's get back to Magic, shall we? ^_^

[Megadeus]

I guess the legacy breakdown for this set is: a lot of close to playable cards that still could potentially see play, and a few cards that may fight for SB slots. However, I don't see any clear playables in this set.

[TsumiBand]

Ugh, if I had realized so much derail would have come out of that question, I'd have sent it in a PM.

It's good to know that we're all so primed to jump on people of a certain ideology, that we'll take jabs at people's character for having a different approach to the game, or a different approach to faith, or apparently all of the above.

I have my own thoughts about religion in both the general and the specific, but I'd as soon avoid approaching them beyond the context of a forum with that express intent.

Inb4 requisite "ppl talk shit online, get a thick skin or gtfo, lol y u so easily offended etc etc" sentiment - you know, I've heard all that before, and the fact of the matter is that doesn't excuse shitty behavior. In fact if you think it's about any of that "butthurt" or "feels" or Internets slang that's real easy to hide behind, you're so far off base that I can't even draw you a map back to where I'm standing.

[bakofried]

Ugh, if I had realized so much derail would have come out of that question, I'd have sent it in a PM.

It's good to know that we're all so primed to jump on people of a certain ideology, that we'll take jabs at people's character for having a different approach to the game, or a different approach to faith, or apparently all of the above.

I have my own thoughts about religion in both the general and the specific, but I'd as soon avoid approaching them beyond the context of a forum with that express intent.

Inb4 requisite "ppl talk shit online, get a thick skin or gtfo, lol y u so easily offended etc etc" sentiment - you know, I've heard all that before, and the fact of the matter is that doesn't excuse shitty behavior. In fact if you think it's about any of that "butthurt" or "feels" or Internets slang that's real easy to hide behind, you're so far off base that I can't even draw you a map back to where I'm standing.

Goddamnit, just when all parties had been reconciled. Back to the set review, please?

I think red is finally getting some goodies worth mentioning. Creature removal with library manipulation, some CA from the mythic dude, and combo hate on a body. I really like the direction they're taking with red's CA; see the new Chandra, for instance. It doesn't break the color wheel, is unique, and (hopefully) good enough to see competitive play.

[Mewens]

Yeah, I'm kinda excited to see how that Prophet will do. He's probably not aggressive enough in Legacy (RW/x SFM, maybe?), but I think he might be pretty neato al fresco in Modern. I'm also glad that they're _trying_ to give Red some card selection engines, and that they're pushing the envelope when they're not good enough (goblin looters, right?).

[easysantiago]

Not expecting much from JOU, I am pleasantly surprised to be getting another four City of Brass to run in Dredge!

[thefreakaccident]

Red already has blood moon on legs, does it really have to have all of it's hate on legs? If anything they need to rethink the ball lightning concept, make it unblockable instead of giving it trample, increase the attack. It would help polarize the game more, necessitating removal for that pesky 2 cmc 8/1 unblockable haste guy. You don't need to give red outs to lifelink effects if you just make the red effects hit that much harder and faster. A vexing devil and this guy together have you almost half way there before they've even got their battleskull online. This might not even get the job done though.


These last few sets have been extremely disappointing with a bastard menagerie of new abilities that should make anyone sick to their core that they are still playing the game. That being said, I wish to chime in on the other discussion in this thread that absolutely nobody wanted me to get involved.

Super duper off topic! -zilla

[Sylphnir]

I guess the legacy breakdown for this set is: a lot of close to playable cards that still could potentially see play, and a few cards that may fight for SB slots. However, I don't see any clear playables in this set.

I'm quite sure Mana Confluence will be played as 4-off in several decks? :laugh:

[TsumiBand]

Sigiled Skink actually seems pretty okay. Not sure it's more potent than Magma Jet, but it appeals to me in a 'how many Thunderous Wraths is too many' way. Because the answer should always be 'there is no too many, hurp'

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Aggro_zombies]

As a friendly reminder, this thread is solely for discussing the contents of the latest Magic set, Journey into Nyx, and those cards' applications to various constructed formats, especially Legacy. Politics, metaphysics, the ways in which you'd like to kill Mark Rosewater, and all other tangentially-related or outright off-topic content is not welcome in this thread and will be deleted.

Thank you for your cooperation.

[lyracian]

Lets try and get this back on topic then...


I guess the legacy breakdown for this set is: a lot of close to playable cards that still could potentially see play, and a few cards that may fight for SB slots. However, I don't see any clear playables in this set.
I think that about sums it up. I like Godsend and the Rule of Law Philosopher however the two stand out cards for me are -

City of Brass 2.0
While there are a few cards that make a difference between damage and paying life they are not usually Legacy played; being immune to Rishadan port (a common legacy card) is an upgrade.

Pyrostatic Pillar with Legs
Pillar only sees play in Burn, and occasional Counter-Burn, decks. Being a creature this may be vulnerable to more removal but it also has protection from some answers (Spell Pierce, Duress) and it actually acts as clock so this seems a better choice for those decks.

[Aggro_zombies]

Mana Confluence is almost certainly worth running in Dredge. If you're running Tarnished Citadel, you're now going to be running Mana Confluence.

Past that, I also agree that there's a bunch of maybes and potentially-es.

[bakofried]

If nothing else, I'm glad they're finding ways to fix the color wheel without breaking it. Green's ability to interact with creatures (outside of attacking) is being developed more, and red is finally getting some CA/card selection/anti combo tools. Maybe we should take the few cards we get, and start thinking about what these developments will hold for future sets.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[Megadeus]

The one good thing about giving colors more answers to various things, is that now sometimes decks dont need to splash colors, which in turn makes decks cheaper, which can help our format.

[bakofried]

The one good thing about giving colors more answers to various things, is that now sometimes decks dont need to splash colors, which in turn makes decks cheaper, which can help our format.

Definitely true. I really have to respect Wizards for trying to make mono-color decks viable in legacy - printing more cards with color prohibitive mana costs is a sign of that. Sadly, the printing of DRS put the format a few steps back. Death's Shadow is a hilarious way to fix the problem - it encourages you to play shocklands. Thalia and Spirit are good examples, as they are prohibitive for non-blue decks, but still good against the format. I'll be interested in seeing how things pan out in the long scheme of things.

[Lord Seth]

I'm surprised to learn that Tarnished Citadel is run at all in Dredge. I thought Undiscovered Paradise was the normal rainbow land to choose after City of Brass and Gemstone Mine...

[HammafistRoob]

Undiscovered Paradise + Cephalid Coliseum = NONBO. Paradise is also garbage against taxing counters. Citadel is horrible but Paradise is far worse, although it did see play in lists where Bloodghast was played.

Anyways, how do people feel this set is going to mix up the current draft format? There seems to be a lot of powerful, swingy rares that tend to make draft kinda meh in my opinion.

[FTW]

Mana Confluence looks like it has an easy fit.
I love the red hatebear. Hope that sees play in burn MDs and maybe in Goblins SB.

[Lord Seth]

Undiscovered Paradise + Cephalid Coliseum = NONBO. Paradise is also garbage against taxing counters. Citadel is horrible but Paradise is far worse, although it did see play in lists where Bloodghast was played.Um... where's the nonbo between Undiscovered Paradise and Cephalid Coliseum? Am I missing something?

[FTW]

Um... where's the nonbo between Undiscovered Paradise and Cephalid Coliseum? Am I missing something?

You can't play Paradise on turn 1 to cast Faithless Looting/Nature's Claim and then Coliseum on turn 2 and expect to crack it, since Undiscovered will be back in your hand. Whereas Tarnished and City of Brass let you do that. Although they damage you, they stay on the field turn 2 if you drop Cephalid Coliseum.

[Darkenslight]

I'm kinda laughing at Mana Confluence being costed at higher than Ajani on pre-orders this morning by some margins (at one point, it was £10 higher at £30, which is not quite Goyf territory).

[lyracian]

I'm kinda laughing at Mana Confluence being costed at higher than Ajani on pre-orders this morning by some margins (at one point, it was £10 higher at £30, which is not quite Goyf territory).

We have a block constructed GP Here in the UK next month and my friends are testing with 3 Mana Confluence in there decks I am sure lots of standard players will be doing the same; whereas Ajani is bi-colour and has limited deck options in Standard/block.

[easysantiago]

We have a block constructed GP Here in the UK next month and my friends are testing with 3 Mana Confluence in there decks I am sure lots of standard players will be doing the same; whereas Ajani is bi-colour and has limited deck options in Standard/block.

Do you think Mana Confluence will rise above it's pre-sale cost once it shows up in Standard lists?

[TsumiBand]

Do you think Mana Confluence will rise above it's pre-sale cost once it shows up in Standard lists?

Well, Reflecting Pool is in Modern, and this is arguably more potent than Vivid lands, so irrespective of Standard I'd be surprised if this doesn't continue to rise.

sent from phone, don't be a dick