Theros: Beyond Death spoilers

[Barook]

Spoilers taken from Reddit (https://imgur.com/a/3CmmYWJ)

Sagas are back. Full land basics are also there, which look "interesting".

Treacherous Blessing seems pretty decent - draw three for :2::b: isn't too shabby if you have a way to get rid of it.

Elspeth is also back, although the card is kinda meh. It previews the Escape mechanics where you can recast the card from the GY for its Escape cost.

[Smuggo]

The Elspeth is from the PW deck as it's 255 of a 254 card set so presumably there will be a playable Elspeth in the main set.

[bruizar]

labyrinth will make standard an even worse planeswalker format

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

labyrinth will make standard an even worse planeswalker format

Don't worry, they'll add a bunch of hexproof and it'll be a non factor

[H]

Full land basics are also there, which look "interesting".

I don't even know what to think, I like them and hate them at the same time...


The Elspeth is from the PW deck as it's 255 of a 254 card set so presumably there will be a playable Elspeth in the main set.

Not any more, the numbering scheme has changed. This will be "pack" Elspeth, since there isn't extended art Planeswalkers in the "starter" decks.

[Barook]

I don't even know what to think, I like them and hate them at the same time...
I feel the same - the art is good, but they look like energy cards for Pokemon (or resource cards of other card games) instead of actual lands.

[H]

I feel the same - the art is good, but they look like energy cards for Pokemon (or resource cards of other card games) instead of actual lands.

Yeah, I like the art, in-itself, as art. I don't much like them as "Lands" since, like you say, they aren't lands. I actually like them thematically, in the Underworld, or whatever, there isn't actual "land" and yet I still hate them, because they are supposed to be Lands.

[Smuggo]

I don't even know what to think, I like them and hate them at the same time...



Not any more, the numbering scheme has changed. This will be "pack" Elspeth, since there isn't extended art Planeswalkers in the "starter" decks.

Oh ok... any info on the new numbering? I wasn't aware of this.

[ronco]

Spoilers taken from Reddit (https://imgur.com/a/3CmmYWJ)

Treacherous Blessing seems pretty decent - draw three for :2::b: isn't too shabby if you have a way to get rid of it.



#notLegacy but Vraska, golgari queen easily disposes of it in standard and draws you a card from it to boot.

I'm excited about the sagas, and about the "lands" even though I agree with H on this. I like the art, but they don't feel like lands. Maybe I'll like them when i see them in my hand/on the board and change my mind.

Underworld dreams got a reprint at uncommon.

[morgan_coke]

I'm still trying to figure out why Elspeth's -3 is by far the worst and most useless ability. Literally all I can think of is trolling by the devs.

I will definitely not be playing with those lands, but I'm not mad at WotC for experimenting. To quote a great elevator operator: "Look, it's 100 floors of frights! They're not all gonna be hits!"

I think there is a good chance one of the better decks of Frontier is going to be BWx Doom Foretold/Starfield of Nyx. The black "draw 3" enchantment is pretty much exactly what that deck was looking for, and a bunch of good new sagas certainly won't hurt either.

I mean,

4x Trial of Ambition
4x Treacherous Blessing
4x Oath of Kaya
4x Doom Foretold
4x Starfield of Nyx

Is 20 cards that really don't suck. Throw in some mass removal, some lifegain, and a 'walker or three, some targeted discard, plus maybe a little more card draw, and you've got a pretty solid deck with very strong sideboard options.

[H]

Oh ok... any info on the new numbering? I wasn't aware of this.

I don't know of anything said officially, but here is the list: over at MTGNexus (https://www.mtgnexus.com/viewtopic.php?t=10496).

As you can see, the Borderless Planeswalkers come right after the "regular" set numbered cards. But since this new set won't have "Storybook" cards, or "Brawl" cards, we don't really know the exact number scheme when it will come to the Planewalker starter deck things, per se.

But since we already know that the set has "254" cards, as per Wizards, this Elspeth being 255 means it is likely the "Borderless Planewalker" version.

[Barook]

Blessing is also pretty interesting with Estrid's Invocation - draw three in each of your upkeeps for free? Yes, please. You only need a way to get around the excessive life loss.

[filln]

Hoping that the Escape mechanic gives Lands something good as we can Dredge into cards and play them out.

[sco0ter]

You only need a way to get around the excessive life loss.

Do you think it is that excessive? Isn't the life loss comparable to Dark Confidant or Phyrexian Arena in an average game?

[ronco]

Blessing is also pretty interesting with Estrid's Invocation - draw three in each of your upkeeps for free? Yes, please. You only need a way to get around the excessive life loss.

It self sacrifices upon targeting so I don't think it would work that way. You could copy it once but that is it. Right?

[H]

It self sacrifices upon targeting so I don't think it would work that way. You could copy it once but that is it. Right?

Invocation, like most copy effects, does not target.

[Poron]

in case you lose the original one, can you self target it?

[ronco]

Invocation, like most copy effects, does not target.

Duh, RTFC. I just assumed it did. My bad.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Hoping that the Escape mechanic gives Lands something good as we can Dredge into cards and play them out.

I'm thinking that all the escapes will be too safely costed, much like Embalm and Eternalize were. Like they'll all have exile 4 cards or some other high number so unless there's some super broken card they'll all only be able to cast them once.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I feel the same - the art is good, but they look like energy cards for Pokemon (or resource cards of other card games) instead of actual lands.

You could actually get a few of them for those decks that like to float or filter mana. Like how on-camera streams have those tokens with the die on them. Too bad there's no wastes for KCI.

[Cire]

I'm thinking that all the escapes will be too safely costed, much like Embalm and Eternalize were. Like they'll all have exile 4 cards or some other high number so unless there's some super broken card they'll all only be able to cast them once.

I don't see a number next to escape so assuming that they will all be Exile 4 + Cost.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I don't see a number next to escape so assuming that they will all be Exile 4 + Cost.

The exile 4 is written as part of the cost which means that there is nothing preventing it from being exile 30 on a different instance of escape. Now, they may all be exile 4 but I'm confident it's not going to be mandatory that it's exile 4 in the rules.

[morgan_coke]

The exile 4 is written as part of the cost which means that there is nothing preventing it from being exile 30 on a different instance of escape. Now, they may all be exile 4 but I'm confident it's not going to be mandatory that it's exile 4 in the rules.

Yeah, having Threshold locked at 7 for all time learned them a lesson. Of course, they repeated it with Delirium, but, you know, whatevs.

[Barook]

Constellation and Devotion (to no one's surprise) are also confirmed back. (https://imgur.com/a/RDqgeB7)

[Cire]

The exile 4 is written as part of the cost which means that there is nothing preventing it from being exile 30 on a different instance of escape. Now, they may all be exile 4 but I'm confident it's not going to be mandatory that it's exile 4 in the rules.

You were completely right.

See the commons with escape in this latest drop https://imgur.com/a/Sa6ZmI0

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The lack of zombies is annoying me.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

You were completely right.

See the commons with escape in this latest drop https://imgur.com/a/Sa6ZmI0

:laugh:

[H]

Well, it is a little interesting that the non-permanent spells with Escape don't Exile on resolution. That will help them be a bit more playable, probably.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Well, it is a little interesting that the non-permanent spells with Escape don't Exile on resolution. That will help them be a bit more playable, probably.
Escape has potential! If any cards from Theros 2 are eternal-playable, they will likely have Escape printed on them.

[Barook]

I haven't even noticed, but apparently spoiler season has started. Two cards that struck me as interesting:

http://mythicspoiler.com/tbd/cards/daxosblessedbythesun.jpg http://mythicspoiler.com/tbd/cards/setessanchampion.jpg

[Cire]

Too bad that the champion isn't an enchantment creature like other constellation creatures. I'm assuming it was done for power concerns?

[Watersaw]

Too bad that the champion isn't an enchantment creature like other constellation creatures. I'm assuming it was done for power concerns?

All the enchantments with Constellation trigger off themselves. So this would draw a card on ETB and come in as a 2/4. Which would be sweet, but I can see why they didn't do it.

[alvoi]

I don't like that in Solitaire, I think argothian and presence are still better. This is also a beater though, so it could be a nice 1x for the matchups in which we need to be aggrous

[rufus]

Is Staggering Insight worth a slot in bogles?

I like sagas for potential thrull parasite jank, but it's unlikely to be competitive.

Escape has potential synergy with LED and a bunch of other stuff, so they may end up breaking something with that.

[Barook]

This is also a beater though, so it could be a nice 1x for the matchups in which we need to be aggrous
She can be GSZ'd for what it's worth.

[ESG]

She can be GSZ'd for what it's worth.

Doesn't seem overall better than Eidolon of Blossoms. Mana usually isn't a problem in Enchantress, so saving one mana doesn't seem worth the slot. Having a green beater doesn't solve many of the deck's problems, although it could kill a Narset. If someone wanted to toy with an aggro route, there are enough playables to at least have some fun.

[Cire]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-preview/theros-beyond-death-theme-boosters-2019-12-17

The one that is popping out at me is Deathbellow War Cry. It's 8 mana, but you can search up Fanatic of Mogis, Kragma Warcaller, Rageblood Shaman, and Neheb, the Worthy (if you have one or no cards in hand or Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion (or perhaps Morphon)). Fanatic deals 5/6 damage, and you attack with either 29 haste, trample, first strike power or 24 haste, trample power. Of course getting to 8 is the hard part. Combine with Irencrag Feat and it's essentially a 2 card 2RRR mana combo.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-preview/theros-beyond-death-theme-boosters-2019-12-17

The one that is popping out at me is Deathbellow War Cry. It's 8 mana, but you can search up Fanatic of Mogis, Kragma Warcaller, Rageblood Shaman, and Neheb, the Worthy (if you have one or no cards in hand or Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion (or perhaps Morphon)). Fanatic deals 5/6 damage, and you attack with either 29 haste, trample, first strike power or 24 haste, trample power. Of course getting to 8 is the hard part. Combine with Irencrag Feat and it's essentially a 2 card 2RRR mana combo.

2RRR? Why, that's how much mana I get from Seething Song!
Which of course costs 2R, a cost I pay for with Desperate Ritual.
1R, a perfect cost from Rite of Flame!
Tap a mountain and HERE WE GO!
(Seven mana is also how much mana I need to play and activate belcher.)

[Cire]

2RRR? Why, that's how much mana I get from Seething Song!
Which of course costs 2R, a cost I pay for with Desperate Ritual.
1R, a perfect cost from Rite of Flame!
Tap a mountain and HERE WE GO!
(Seven mana is also how much mana I need to play and activate belcher.)

Both cards of the Combo are sorceries as well so Burning wish!

Imagine:

1. Land
2. Land + Burning Wish --> Search for necessary Accel or Deathbellow War Cry
3. Sol Land + necessary accel X2 + Deathbellow War Cry --> Win.

So Minotaur Combo Stompy?

16 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Lotus Petal
3 Seething Song
3 Irencrag Feat
3 Deathbellow War Cry
4 Burning Wish
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blood Moon
2 Kragma Warcaller,
1 Fanatic of Mogis
1 Rageblood Shaman
1 Neheb, the Worthy
1 Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion
1 Morphon, the Boundless
4 Open

So trinisphere or other red stompy staple? I'm sure this can be modified appropriately.

[the Thin White Duke]

Side note: this batch of preview cards will be exclusive to theme boosters. I give them credit for not bothering to be subtle anymore with new products to milk the player base, but FU Wizards.

[rufus]

2RRR? Why, that's how much mana I get from Seething Song!
Which of course costs 2R, a cost I pay for with Desperate Ritual.
1R, a perfect cost from Rite of Flame!
Tap a mountain and HERE WE GO!
(Seven mana is also how much mana I need to play and activate belcher.)

It's interesting how much difference there is between 8 mana for Minotaur Storm and 9 mana for Dragonstorm.

[Cire]

It's interesting how much difference there is between 8 mana for Minotaur Storm and 9 mana for Dragonstorm.

How many extraneous cards did the most efficient Dragonstorm end up requiring? Because the minimum for Cow Storm is I think 9: 3 Deathbellow War Cry, 2 Kragma Warcaller, 1 Fanatic of Mogis, 1Rageblood Shaman, 1 Neheb, the Worthy and 1 Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion. Also would've old dragonstorm lists liked Irencrag Feat?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Side note: this batch of preview cards will be exclusive to theme boosters. I give them credit for not bothering to be subtle anymore with new products to milk the player base, but FU Wizards.

I actually don't care about this change, assuming it means the draft environment stays good. I buy singles anyways so it's not like I'm cracking packs. And if I was cracking packs I think it's fine to have a choice between "Stuff for my kitchen table" and "Loot Crate"

[rufus]

How many extraneous cards did the most efficient Dragonstorm end up requiring? Because the minimum for Cow Storm is I think 9: 3 Deathbellow War Cry, 2 Kragma Warcaller, 1 Fanatic of Mogis, 1Rageblood Shaman, 1 Neheb, the Worthy and 1 Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion. Also would've old dragonstorm lists liked Irencrag Feat?

If you're willing to use the attack step, you can win with 2 dragons like Karrthus, Tyrand of Jund + Atarka, World Render, but those piles tend to be fragile. I don't think there were ever any competent Dragonstorm lists in legacy.

[Cire]

If you're willing to use the attack step, you can win with 2 dragons like Karrthus, Tyrand of Jund + Atarka, World Render, but those piles tend to be fragile. I don't think there were ever any competent Dragonstorm lists in legacy.

Yeah and I doubt the 1 less mana and existence of feat in exchange for 3-4 more dead cards in the deck would make it competent, but would just love to play a deck called Cow Storm in Legacy. The list I provided earlier with Chalice and Moon sort of looks like it can come together, but seems like chalice isn't the best play at the moment given Oko.

[filln]

4 Open

Maybe Didgeridoo? Not great with Chalice but you can ramp it out/activate fairly quickly and it helps solve if you end up with one of the minotaurs in hand.

[mistercakes]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-preview/theros-beyond-death-theme-boosters-2019-12-17

The one that is popping out at me is Deathbellow War Cry. It's 8 mana, but you can search up Fanatic of Mogis, Kragma Warcaller, Rageblood Shaman, and Neheb, the Worthy (if you have one or no cards in hand or Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion (or perhaps Morphon)). Fanatic deals 5/6 damage, and you attack with either 29 haste, trample, first strike power or 24 haste, trample power. Of course getting to 8 is the hard part. Combine with Irencrag Feat and it's essentially a 2 card 2RRR mana combo.

8 mana was always very easy with ruby storm.

you have a lot of options here.

adding tags for you


Fanatic of Mogis
Kragma Warcaller
Rageblood Shaman
Neheb, the Worthy
Neheb, Dreadhorde Champion
Morophon, the boundless
Irencrag Feat
Ruby Medallion

[Glass House]

Arcane Adaptation might be worth looking into. You can also try cheating War Cry's mana cost with Mizzix's Mastery and Spellweaver Helix. Interesting to note that Helix lets you cast off of opponent spells. So you can, for instance, imprint War Cry and Ponder and threaten to go off via an opponent's Ponder.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Today the spoilers accelerate to daily. After adventure cards pushed the heck out of CA we'll see how escape does.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/tbd/cards/klothysgodofdestiny.jpg

Why do I get the feeling that this is going to get utilized in Xerox decks? 4 life point swings on each of your turns isn't too shabby for grinding your opponent out. As GY hate, it's too slow to be actually effective, but it's a nice side effect.

[bruizar]

http://mythicspoiler.com/tbd/cards/klothysgodofdestiny.jpg

Why do I get the feeling that this is going to get utilized in Xerox decks? 4 life point swings on each of your turns isn't too shabby for grinding your opponent out. As GY hate, it's too slow to be actually effective, but it's a nice side effect.

I like the card but it's a 300% more expensive DRS with timing restrictions.

[Barook]

I like the card but it's a 300% more expensive DRS with timing restrictions.
DRS is rightfully banned, so that's a mood point.

She seems to be a good GSZ target.

[morgan_coke]

At least it can't be paired with W6 now. God what a nightmare that would have been.

So, Temur Xerox

4x GSZ
4x Delver
1x Klothys
1x Arbor
2x 'Goyf
3x Noble

4x BS
4x Ponder
4x Force
4x Bolt
4x Oko
4x Astrolabe

2x Rainforest
2x Tarn
4x Vista
1x Snow Covered Forest
2x Snow Covered Island
1x Snow Covered Mountain
4x Wasteland

I don't necessarily know that that's better than what RUG delver already runs, but I could be wrong, it's got a bit of maindeck GY hate, which is nice.

[mistercakes]

this card is really powerful. it's a DRS like mentioned, but it's not impossible to reach the 7 devotion requirement. then you have a 4/5 indestructible creature. i think the biggest thing here is that you can get it with gsz as mentioned. (could also be noted that it can be vialed in, which is pretty cool too.)

as a sidebar: it does exile graveyard, which is pretty big for a format (standard) which is effectively introducing flashback.

[Cire]

Anyway to throw Astrolab and Oko into that list? At this point seems like any deck that is UG should run that interaction.

[morgan_coke]

Anyway to throw Astrolab and Oko into that list? At this point seems like any deck that is UG should run that interaction.

That's a very good point, yeah, those should be in there for sure, honestly, I was just spitballing that list.

New THB card: pretty sure this is limited fodder, but man, what a great name:

The Binding of the Titans
1G
Saga
1: Both players put top three cards of library into graveyard
2: Exile two cards from graveyards, gain 1 life for each creature exiled this way
3: Return a land or creature from your graveyard to your hand

[Cire]

That's a very good point, yeah, those should be in there for sure, honestly, I was just spitballing that list.

New THB card: pretty sure this is limited fodder, but man, what a great name:

The Binding of the Titans
1G
Saga
1: Both players put top three cards of library into graveyard
2: Exile two cards from graveyards, gain 1 life for each creature exiled this way
3: Return a land or creature from your graveyard to your hand

Also pure green mill (terrible terrible mill, but still).

And in spirit of spitballing a "Destiny Delver" list:

Xerox Shell

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1-2 Force of Negation

Oko-Interaction

2-3 Oko
4 Astrolab

GSZ Package

4 GSZ
1 Gofy
1 Arbor
1 Klothys
1 Ooze
1 "Other"

"Delver" Package

4 Delver
4 Lightning Bolt

16-18 Lands

0-4 Open Spots

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I guess two drop lords are just the thing now. This one has good abilities and draws cards.
For reference, yesterday's card was a Satyr Lord for RG that also gives haste and when 3 attack you can discard a random card to draw 2

[bruizar]

I guess two drop lords are just the thing now. This one has good abilities and draws cards.
For reference, yesterday's card was a Satyr Lord for RG that also gives haste and when 3 attack you can discard a random card to draw 2

Notably, the draw isn't connected to the tribe.

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/217.jpg

[Watersaw]

Notably, the draw isn't connected to the tribe.

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/217.jpg

This thing has to be playable in something, right? 2/2 haste that draws cards if your opponent doesn't have enough removal should be good. Then again compared to Bob it's harder to get cards off of, even if it does in theory trigger immediately.

[bruizar]

This thing has to be playable in something, right? 2/2 haste that draws cards if your opponent doesn't have enough removal should be good. Then again compared to Bob it's harder to get cards off of, even if it does in theory trigger immediately.

I couldn't find a shell. I thought of Delver/Pyromancer, Zombardment style decks that can profit off the discard, and Gruul Stompy list that can profit from Rabblemaster, but none of it is very convincing. Perhaps we get a few additional Satyr printings that make it worth while.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

It also feels kinda win more (if you have 3 attackers you are in a good spot)

[itslarryyo]

I wonder if you could cram it in some janky goblins build to refill your hand.That would probably belong in cavius forum though.

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/1cuEsAv.jpg

Not really all the playable, but as a sort of completionist, I appreciate this now exists.

However, Replenish does exist, so there is always that angle.

[bruizar]

https://i.imgur.com/1cuEsAv.jpg

Not really all the playable, but as a sort of completionist, I appreciate this now exists.

However, Replenish does exist, so there is always that angle.

4 Teferi
4 Show and Tell
4 Thirst for Meaning
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Omniscience
4 Replenish
4 Overwhelming Splendor / Decree of Silence / Dovescape
4 Force of Will
3 Force of Negation

Or something

[Cire]

https://i.imgur.com/1cuEsAv.jpg

Not really all the playable, but as a sort of completionist, I appreciate this now exists.

However, Replenish does exist, so there is always that angle.

I'm waiting for the "unless you discard a Planeswalker card" card. :wink:

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I'm waiting for the "unless you discard a Planeswalker card" card. :wink:

They should release a super cycle where it's a million thirsts and each one's flavor text is "What good is X without Y" where X is the thirst for whatever and Y is the name of the card.

I fully expect royalties in the next round of Secret Liar: Thirst Traps
(It will also have alt art Runeflare Trap)

[Glass House]

https://i.imgur.com/40NFgOh_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

This has a lot of potential.

[Barook]

Definitely. LED is a prime candidate to break it.

[BenBleiweiss]

https://i.imgur.com/40NFgOh_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

This has a lot of potential.

This is probaby the closest cards we're getting to Yawgmoth's Will in Red. Needs a little more work, but costs less, sticks around the whole turn and you can recast things that you cast off it (doesn't exile cards you cast in this way).

[Cire]

Definitely. LED is a prime candidate to break it.

Yup. you can escape the LED itself so if you have enough cards in grave to pay for Escape you can use this to cast any card in your grave by just escaping LED over and over.

[BenBleiweiss]

LED + Brain Freeze, turn 1/2 kill.

Drop Underworld Breach.
Play LED, sac it, discarding Brain Freeze + other cards.
Cast Brain Freeze on yourself.
Cast LED from Graveyard, sac it, cast Brain freeze on yourself
Repeat a few times to get storm count up
Cast Brain Freeze on opponent for their deck.
win

[Cire]

LED + Brain Freeze, turn 1/2 kill.

Drop Underworld Breach.
Play LED, sac it, discarding Brain Freeze + other cards.
Cast Brain Freeze on yourself.
Cast LED from Graveyard, sac it, cast Brain freeze on yourself
Repeat a few times to get storm count up
Cast Brain Freeze on opponent for their deck.
win

Awesome - Just wanted to make sure it works

Led (storm count 1, let's say 3 non "combo" cards in grave, lets say 52 cards in Library, 3 mana), cast BF from grave on yourself (Storm 2, 6 non-combo cards in grave, 46 in library, 1 mana), cast LED from grave (storm 3, 3 non-combo cards in grave, 46 in library, 4 mana), cast BF from grave on yourself (Storm 4, 12 non-combo cards in grave, 34 in library, 2 mana), Cast LED from grave (storm 5, 9 non-combo cards in grave, 34 in library, 5 mana), cast BF from grave on yourself (Storm 6, 27 non-combo cards in grave, 16 in library, 3 mana), Cast LED from grave (storm 7, 24 non-combo cards in grave, 16 in library, 6 mana), cast BF from grave on yourself (Storm 8, 37 non-combo cards in grave, 0 in library, 4 mana), From this point instead of BF you opponent and thus having to pass the turn or being subject ot graveyard shuffle cards, just recast LED and cast grapeshot multiple times.

Problem is its a 3 card combo (for two mana, but still 3 cards).

[H]

Edit: how does this work with Ancestral Vision? Escape is equal to the mana cost but they don't have a mana cost . . . is it zero or just non-existent also?

Pretty sure it does not work. AV has no "mana cost," but it's "converted mana cost" is zero. You can't cast AV for its "mana cost" because it doesn't exist.

[Kagehisa]

Can I cast from my graveyard a Lotus Bloom for "exile 3 cards from my graveyard" ?

The way I see it is Lotus Bloom has no mana cost but Underworld Breach give it an escape cost that is "no mana cost" + exile 3 cards from GY = exile 3 cards from GY.

[mistercakes]

@cire started a new/developing thread on the breach deck. let's brew on there.

[Cire]

@cire started a new/developing thread on the breach deck. let's brew on there.

Yup - i'll delete my speculation from here then

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Can I cast from my graveyard a Lotus Bloom for "exile 3 cards from my graveyard" ?

The way I see it is Lotus Bloom has no mana cost but Underworld Breach give it an escape cost that is "no mana cost" + exile 3 cards from GY = exile 3 cards from GY.

No.

The unpayable cost plus a payable one doesn't turn into a payable one. Think of it this way: A sphere of resistance doesn't make a lotus bloom castable either.
As it says in gatherer: "This has no mana cost, which means its mana cost can’t be paid for effects such as replicate from Djinn Illuminatus or flashback from Snapcaster Mage." Also, check the reminder text on Evermind. Non-existent costs can't be paid.

[Cire]

Ox of Agonas – 3RR
Creature – Ox (MR)
When ~ enters the battlefield, discard your hand, then draw three cards.
Escape-RR, exile eight other from your graveyard. (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its escape cost.)
~ escapes with a +1/+1 counters on it.
4/2

Cheap escape cost but heavy cost for exile . . . competes heavily with delve creatures, but it does give you gas.

[bruizar]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/END9iIVX0AEbpvl?format=jpg&name=smallhttps://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENDsLEyXUAE4rzW?format=jpg&name=smallhttps://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/147.jpg


Purphoros going to make waves in pioneer. Ox looks pretty insane

Altar of Dementia puts 5 cards in the graveyard if you sack the ox, so once you play the 3 cards from your hand you can escape it again for RR and draw 3 cards (provided you don't hit lands).

[Kagehisa]

@FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Thank you. I got it :)

[BenBleiweiss]

Guess Red is the color of Dredge Combos all of a sudden!

https://i.redd.it/zfquqrpo8u741.png

[mistercakes]

Guess Red is the color of Dredge Combos all of a sudden!

https://i.redd.it/zfquqrpo8u741.png

can we intuition for 3 conscriptions and just attack with this guy? is that even a thing?

[bruizar]

can we intuition for 3 conscriptions and just attack with this guy? is that even a thing?

Yes that works, and you can play Academy Researchers to land one that's stranded in your hand.


This thing is really good, but a little bit slow against unfair decks:
https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/341.jpg

Still great against Snapcasters and other value plays.

[Barook]

Hound seems good, but what deck would play it? D&T with a black splash? Maverick? 4C Loam?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Yes that works, and you can play Academy Researchers to land one that's stranded in your hand.


This thing is really good, but a little bit slow against unfair decks:
https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/341.jpg

Still great against Snapcasters and other value plays.
Anyone say Grafdiggers Hound yet?
It's both dog and kennel, all in one card.

[morgan_coke]

Hound seems good, but what deck would play it? D&T with a black splash? Maverick? 4C Loam?

Astral Drift. Obvs.

[bruizar]

Hound seems good, but what deck would play it? D&T with a black splash? Maverick? 4C Loam?

I could see orxhov taxes list with tidehollow sciullers. Hound carries equipment incredibly well so whatever deck you play this, it needs SFM

[alvoi]

Dog Guy Ale?

[Amorfous]

Question to the people in this thread: Can these older formats survive another 2019 in terms of card power level and upheaval of set archetypes? This spoiler season is hitting us hard and fast, we already have a Yawg Will in red and an infinite combo with Heliod and Walking Ballista, and the 3 mana Klothys. If this is any indication, we're in for another can of whup ass.

[Cire]

Question to the people in this thread: Can these older formats survive another 2019 in terms of card power level and upheaval of set archetypes? This spoiler season is hitting us hard and fast, we already have a Yawg Will in red and an infinite combo with Heliod and Walking Ballista, and the 3 mana Klothys. If this is any indication, we're in for another can of whup ass.

Don't forget Cow Storm :tongue::wink:

[Cire]

Question to the people in this thread: Can these older formats survive another 2019 in terms of card power level and upheaval of set archetypes? This spoiler season is hitting us hard and fast, we already have a Yawg Will in red and an infinite combo with Heliod and Walking Ballista, and the 3 mana Klothys. If this is any indication, we're in for another can of whup ass.

Also just brainstorming, doubt the Heliod and Ballista combo is worth it in Legacy.

FYI New Heliod is:

2W
Legendary Enchantment Creature - God
Indestructible
As long as your devotion to white is less than five, Heliod isn't a creature.
Whenever you gain life, put a +1/+1 counter on target creature or enchantment you control.
1W: Another target creature gains lifelink until end of turn.
5/5

The combo - is you cast Heliod, then follow up with a Ballista with 2 counters and use Heliod's activation. Then ping forever. That combo costs 7WW mana dividable over 2 turns. Helps that Heliod is not a creature and is indestructible.

So best case scenario that I see is:

Turn 1 - Land - Enlightened Tutor for either of your pieces.
Turn 2 - Sol Land - Heliod
Turn 3 - Land + 2 mana accel + Ballista

That will take (in three colors) in a first draft at minimum:

4 Heliod
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Walking Ballista
4 Dark Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
14 Lands

You have 18 open spots for protection if you want, or even other combos. Why not run Helm/RIP and/or even Painter in that package?

This would be hilarious:

White Based Combo Mess

4 Heliod
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Walking Ballista
4 Dark Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Rest in Peace
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
12 Lands

[mistercakes]

Can't you just run this in bomberman? If that deck can't fit a spot for this guy, then it's prob not good enough.

[ESG]

Can't you just run this in bomberman? If that deck can't fit a spot for this guy, then it's prob not good enough.

It's going in my Bomberman build.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Also just brainstorming, doubt the Heliod and Ballista combo is worth it in Legacy.

FYI New Heliod is:

2W
Legendary Enchantment Creature - God
Indestructible
As long as your devotion to white is less than five, Heliod isn't a creature.
Whenever you gain life, put a +1/+1 counter on target creature or enchantment you control.
1W: Another target creature gains lifelink until end of turn.
5/5

The combo - is you cast Heliod, then follow up with a Ballista with 2 counters and use Heliod's activation. Then ping forever. That combo costs 7WW mana dividable over 2 turns. Helps that Heliod is not a creature and is indestructible.

So best case scenario that I see is:

Turn 1 - Land - Enlightened Tutor for either of your pieces.
Turn 2 - Sol Land - Heliod
Turn 3 - Land + 2 mana accel + Ballista

That will take (in three colors) in a first draft at minimum:

4 Heliod
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Walking Ballista
4 Dark Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
14 Lands

You have 18 open spots for protection if you want, or even other combos. Why not run Helm/RIP and/or even Painter in that package?

This would be hilarious:

White Based Combo Mess

4 Heliod
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Walking Ballista
4 Dark Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Rest in Peace
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
12 Lands
WG affinity.
T1 gw dual, hardened scales
T2 Sol land/mox God
T3 any Mana ballista for one, grant lifelink.
It synergies with other affinity cards but I don't know if this would work.

[mistercakes]

this was mentioned on one of the discords: this also enables the spike feeder infinite life combo.

[Barook]

Doesn't Heliod make Soul Sisters significantly more powerful in Modern?

Some Soul Sister on T1 or T2, Heliod on T3, Ballista @1 on T4, Sister triggers, gain life, give Ballista lifelink, nuke.

And even without the other combo piece, both cards are useful on their own in that shell.

[mistercakes]

This card in soul sisters is a pretty strong effect, prob even legacy playable.

[Barook]

I would argue that 1-2 copies MD are even worth testing D&T's flex slots alongside two Recruiters and one Ballista. Heliod can be dropped wit Vial @3 and can dramatically shift the racing potential of the deck. E.g. drop Heliod, lifelink Mirran Crusader, go to town.

[mistercakes]

Yep it can't hurt to test. Also is legendary in case it becomes a creature.

[jmlima]

Question to the people in this thread: Can these older formats survive another 2019 in terms of card power level and upheaval of set archetypes? This spoiler season is hitting us hard and fast, we already have a Yawg Will in red and an infinite combo with Heliod and Walking Ballista, and the 3 mana Klothys. If this is any indication, we're in for another can of whup ass.

As long as there are credit cards and people willing to spend their money on cardboard, it will continue.

[bruizar]

Question to the people in this thread: Can these older formats survive another 2019 in terms of card power level and upheaval of set archetypes? This spoiler season is hitting us hard and fast, we already have a Yawg Will in red and an infinite combo with Heliod and Walking Ballista, and the 3 mana Klothys. If this is any indication, we're in for another can of whup ass.

It was already stated that this is the new powerlevel. Expect a lot of cards to be pushed out of the format.

[Barook]

I don't think getting more powerful cards is a bad thing, since Legacy would get stale otherwise. At least as long as they weed out the bullshit cards in a reasonable time frame like W&6.

Edit: I wonder if a Soul Sisters variant could become viable in Legacy with the new Heliod/Ballista combo. E-Tutor could search for either combo piece, if necessary.

[mistercakes]

https://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/result?pageSize=&eventName=&formats%5B3%5D=3&archetypeIds=&dateFrom=&dateTo=&capacityFrom=&capacityTo=&card=soul+warden&player=&eventName=

only 3 decks, but still better than nothing. i'm sure it's good enough to jam at a weekly.

[bruizar]

I like this card a lot:

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/165.jpg



[Arista the Endless Nest]
Legendary Enchantment Creature — Spider
Reach
Whenever an opponent casts an instant or sorcery spell, create a 1/2 green Spider creature token with reach.
3/5

Also Preeminent Captain gets a new toy in the yanky deck department
https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/033.jpg

[Barook]

Color me unimpressed. Arasta relies on the opponent to spam spider tokens. If OP plays a removal spell (and there are plenty for both creatures and enchantments), you've spent :2::g::g: for a free 1/2 reach token.

[bruizar]

Color me unimpressed. Arasta relies on the opponent to spam spider tokens. If OP plays a removal spell (and there are plenty for both creatures and enchantments), you've spent :2::g::g: for a free 1/2 reach token.

The way I see it, it survives bolt and produces better creatures than young pyromancer, which can also kill/block delvers. This would be for a sylvan plug style deck against (UR)Delver decks. The tokens also survive Arcanist and trade with Pyromancer.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The way I see it, it survives bolt and produces better creatures than young pyromancer, which can also kill/block delvers. This would be for a sylvan plug style deck against (UR)Delver decks. The tokens also survive Arcanist and trade with Pyromancer.

It would be better, with four Mana, to just win the game

[Cire]

Speaking of 4 mana :

Tectonic Giant 2RR
Creature - Elemental Giant
Whenever Tectonic Giant attacks or becomes the target of a spell an opponent controls, choose one—
• Tectonic Giant deals 3 damage to each opponent.
• Exile the top two cards of your library. Choose one of them. Until the end of your next turn, you may play that card.
3/4

Is Dragon Stompy still a thing? Seems they would like a 4 mana 6/4 that provides damage/CA if opponent targets it.

[Glass House]

Tectonic Giant probably finds a slot in Red Eldrazi. The deck already runs Anje's Ravager, and Giant is likely better.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/tbd/cards/polukranosunchained.jpg

Polukranos died? :confused:

[Cire]

Polukranos died? :confused:

From the MTG Wiki - looks like Elspeth killed it (https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Polukranos)

[Smuggo]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/x8ef08870e841-265x370.png?x96163

Horse fish

[BenBleiweiss]

https://i.redd.it/o8655x422e841.png

There's gotta be something you can do here, GG2 for Vesuva/Stage or Depths, etc.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

http://mythicspoiler.com/tbd/cards/polukranosunchained.jpg

Polukranos died? :confused:

Elspeth, aka lady Heracles, slew the hydra. Yes.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

https://i.redd.it/o8655x422e841.png

There's gotta be something you can do here, GG2 for Vesuva/Stage or Depths, etc.

Maybe just get all the Cloudposts. Or Cabal Coffers/Urborg. Cradle, Nykthos...

Problem is you just play setup for even bigger turns, nice value for Gitrog EDH but way slower than Crop Rotation.

[Cire]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/x8ef08870e841-265x370.png?x96163

Horse fish

Don't see the image so reposting:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENSZ1_2XUAErTSl?format=jpg&name=small

[morgan_coke]

Treacherous Blessing got officially spoiled.

Man, I am fired up about playing a GWB deck with stuff like that, Birth of Meletis, Doom Foretold, and Setessan Champion. Probably throw in an Island or two and some Dance's just to reset the whole mess when needed.

Nylea's Intervention is an awesome card, but I don't know that it'll do much in Legacy given how it's a whole turn for just setup and how fast the format is overall. Seems more like a Pioneer power card. Even Modern is probably too quick with all the Astrolabe powered Tempo decks there now.

[bruizar]

What else is there to build a deck around?

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/grn/067.jpghttps://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/311.jpghttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=397586&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=247183&type=cardhttps://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/053.jpghttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=380485&type=cardhttps://www.mtgpics.com/pics/reg/thb/058.jpg


Turn 1: Dead Weight a creature
Turn 2: Cacophony, exile dead weight make a zombie
Turn 3: Sarcomancy make a zombie, Perilous Research, draw 2 cards, attack for 4, exile Sarcomancy make another zombie
Turn 4: Attack for 8

Not too powerful, I guess Sarcomancy and Perilous Research are too weak, but Cacophony looks like a really good Young Pyromancer that lacks the enchantments to fuel it.

[Fox]

Cool legendary interaction with Aphemia by itself. Decent chance of no negative interaction by opponent with end step trigger. Probably the better Tempest card would be Intuition (but rather anemic use of mana showing 3x Aphemia versus something like Phoenix).

Similar to a card like Blacklance Paragon, Aphemia likely becomes weaker in a tribal themed deck.

[ronco]

What else is there to build a deck around?

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/grn/067.jpghttps://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/311.jpghttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=397586&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=247183&type=cardhttps://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/053.jpghttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=380485&type=cardhttps://www.mtgpics.com/pics/reg/thb/058.jpg


Turn 1: Dead Weight a creature
Turn 2: Cacophony, exile dead weight make a zombie
Turn 3: Sarcomancy make a zombie, Perilous Research, draw 2 cards, attack for 4, exile Sarcomancy make another zombie
Turn 4: Attack for 8

Not too powerful, I guess Sarcomancy and Perilous Research are too weak, but Cacophony looks like a really good Young Pyromancer that lacks the enchantments to fuel it.

I think you can get the same thing in mono black (in standard no less) with:
https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/6/8/68c0d087-540a-4249-9265-f13cc8e776ea.jpg?1577793319

bonus, it fuels the graveyard and can be exiled once it hits its 3rd chapter and helps scupt your draws.

[Cire]

Thassa, Deep-Dwelling 3U
Legendary Enchantment Creature - God Mythic Rare
Indestructible
As long as your devotion to blue is less than five, Thassa isn't a creature.
At the beginning of your end step, exile up to one Target creature you control, then return that card to the battlefield under your control.
{3U}: Tap another target creature.
6/5

Is this the cheapest continuous blinking effect we have? And it's end step not upkeep so you get value out of it when you cast it?

Just with Man-O-War type creatures in blue its a continuous bounce. It's very annoying with Vendilion Clique. . . IDK, seems like it could be something?

[Smuggo]

Thassa, Deep-Dwelling 3U
Legendary Enchantment Creature - God Mythic Rare
Indestructible
As long as your devotion to blue is less than five, Thassa isn't a creature.
At the beginning of your end step, exile up to one Target creature you control, then return that card to the battlefield under your control.
{3U}: Tap another target creature.
6/5

Is this the cheapest continuous blinking effect we have? And it's end step not upkeep so you get value out of it when you cast it?

Just with Man-O-War type creatures in blue its a continuous bounce. It's very annoying with Vendilion Clique. . . IDK, seems like it could be something?

Well it's definitely going straight into my Yarok EDH deck.

[Fox]

Soulherder is cheaper.

[Cire]

Soulherder is cheaper.

Ah, totally didn't realize that card existed. On the plus for New-Thassa though - you can use Sol lands if you need to, mono blue, hard to get rid of (not a creature and is indestructible), in a pinch you can eventually hit for 6, can tap creatures.

---

Also rules question does Theros Achiles work with like Hushbringer to have you avoid choosing a number?

https://i.imgur.com/iNo4yHp.png

[Fox]

Thassa has more utility, but Soulherder is quite a bit better with Vial. With Thassa, you’ve got a 4 mana clunker that doesn’t really take over a game, and you still have to survive to cast it [meaning control aspects, which lead into why isn’t that a JTMS]. The 4 mana activation is also a bit crippling, as you probably can’t even use it after an opponent’s SnT to lock down an Emrakul.

“As“ is not a trigger.

[Cire]

“As“ is not a trigger.

Ah, well definitely more trouble than it's worth, but what if you manifest him and flip him?

[Fox]

Ah, well definitely more trouble than it's worth, but what if you manifest him and flip him?
Then he's already on the field so there will be no need to honor an As clause

[Cire]

Then he's already on the field so there will be no need to honor an As clause

Another dumb question . . . the ability seems to me to read that he has protection from have protection from 0, 1, 5, 6, etc. always right? It doesn't just refer to 2, 3, 4. As such . . . isn't this pretty good in general? He is Decay proof just by being 4 CMC and always has protection from STP and Bolt. He also has protection from Karakas?

If that is true he is a bit like mini-Progentius except for 2, 3, 4 at random?

[H]

Another dumb question . . . the ability seems to me to read that he has protection from have protection from 0, 1, 5, 6, etc. always right? It doesn't just refer to 2, 3, 4. As such . . . isn't this pretty good in general? He is Decay proof just by being 4 CMC and always has protection from STP and Bolt. He also has protection from Karakas?

If that is true he is a bit like mini-Progentius except for 2, 3, 4 at random?

Yeah, he is basically a "augmented" TNN. It's hard to say how good that is at 4 mana though, because dodging Decay is nice, but at :w::w::r::r: which isn't the easiest cost to pay.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Ah, totally didn't realize that card existed. On the plus for New-Thassa though - you can use Sol lands if you need to, mono blue, hard to get rid of (not a creature and is indestructible), in a pinch you can eventually hit for 6, can tap creatures.

---

Also rules question does Theros Achiles work with like Hushbringer to have you avoid choosing a number?

https://i.imgur.com/iNo4yHp.png

No.
It does, however, work with Manifest.

[rufus]

Thassa, Deep-Dwelling 3U
...
At the beginning of your end step, exile up to one Target creature you control, then return that card to the battlefield under your control.
...

Just with Man-O-War type creatures in blue its a continuous bounce. It's very annoying with Vendilion Clique. . . IDK, seems like it could be something?

It's cute with Threaten effects and stuff like dash, but way too slow to matter in legacy.

[rufus]

No.
It does, however, work with Manifest.

They're going to interpret or edit the rules so it doesn't. ( https://twitter.com/EliShffrn/status/1213148285415804929 )

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

They're going to interpret or edit the rules so it doesn't. ( https://twitter.com/EliShffrn/status/1213148285415804929 )

Amazing that this gets immediate changes to the rules to prevent people from trying to have protection from everything (which already exists, btw) but nonsense like changing land types still cancels the abilities, and that replaced events can still meet if conditions. (Blood moon, and wasteland stranger)

[Fox]

They're going to interpret or edit the rules so it doesn't. ( https://twitter.com/EliShffrn/status/1213148285415804929 )

The rules don't really need to be updated, it's just poorly formatted. The second and third text blocks should be in a single paragraph to better illustrate how they fail in sequence.

Every legacy player should inherently understand that if Revoker enters face-down and is later turned face-up, that Revoker does nothing to stop the abilities of cards with no name (like morph or manifest). So too does it make sense that if you can't choose a number, that Haktos cannot apply any text dependent downstream on having a declared number.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The rules don't really need to be updated, it's just poorly formatted. The second and third text blocks should be in a single paragraph to better illustrate how they fail in sequence.

Every legacy player should inherently understand that if Revoker enters face-down and is later turned face-up, that Revoker does nothing to stop the abilities of cards with no name (like morph or manifest). So too does it make sense that if you can't choose a number, that Haktos cannot apply any text dependent downstream on having a declared number.

Rule 706.7a reads (in the relevant part) "If an ability refers to an undefined choice, that part of the ability won’t do anything." Only that part of the ability does nothing. The part of this ability that uses that choice is the exception, therefore only the exception should be ignored and therefore his ability should give protection to all CMC values.

[Fox]

Rule 706.7a reads (in the relevant part) "If an ability refers to an undefined choice, that part of the ability won’t do anything." Only that part of the ability does nothing. The part of this ability that uses that choice is the exception, therefore only the exception should be ignored and therefore his ability should give protection to all CMC values.

Uh no, Revoker coming in without naming a thing does not equal applying the rest of its text to cards without names.

The last text block on Haktos can‘t work b/c it specifies needing a chosen entity. If the choosing portion is undermined, you can replace every instance of “chosen“ with “Fizzled“

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Uh no, Revoker coming in without naming a thing does not equal applying the rest of its text to cards without names.

That's because undefined is not equal to no characteristic. A choice that is never made is explicitly stated as "undefined" It's even in quotes.

706.7a If an ability causes a player to “choose a [value]” and a second, linked ability refers to that choice, the second ability is the only ability that can refer to that choice. An object doesn’t “remember” that choice and use it for other abilities it may copy later. If an object copies an ability that refers to a choice, but either (a) doesn’t copy that ability’s linked ability or (b) does copy the linked ability but no choice is made for it, then the choice is considered to be “undefined.” If an ability refers to an undefined choice, that part of the ability won’t do anything.

707.2. Face-down spells and face-down permanents have no characteristics other than those listed by the ability or rules that allowed the spell or permanent to be face down.
Undefined doesn't match No Characteristic, so Revoker can't match. Also the part of revoker's ability that does something is 100% dependant on a card name, so it can't do anything.

[Glass House]

Last few posts have been some of the most intense rules-lawyering I've ever seen :laugh:

[morgan_coke]

Last few posts have been some of the most intense rules-lawyering I've ever seen :laugh:

I'm impressed with the citations.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The last text block on Haktos can‘t work b/c it specifies needing a chosen entity. If the choosing portion is undermined, you can replace every instance of “chosen“ with “Fizzled“

You edited this bit in after I posted, but sure. Ok:
"Haktos has protection from each converted mana cost other than ~Fizzled~"
As I said before, it's the exception that is dependant on the choice, not the all-around protection. Therefore Haktos has protection from everything, because every spell will have a defined converted mana cost.

[H]

You edited this bit in after I posted, but sure. Ok:
"Haktos has protection from each converted mana cost other than ~Fizzled~"
As I said before, it's the exception that is dependant on the choice, not the all-around protection. Therefore Haktos has protection from everything, because every spell will have a defined converted mana cost.
The problem is that when you disagree with the Rules Manager, the Rules Manager wins because he makes the rules.

The same happened with Mairsil and that was that.

[ronco]

The same happened with Mairsil and that was that.

Humorously with Mairsil:
"If Mairsil has an equip ability, activating it won’t cause anything to happen. Mairsil doesn’t become attached to a creature. They may remain friends."

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The problem is that when you disagree with the Rules Manager, the Rules Manager wins because he makes the rules.

The same happened with Mairsil and that was that.

Unless he changes the rules or shoves it into the Oracle I don't really care what wrong opinions he posts on Twitter.
Edit: It's not even the only time he was wrong in the twitter thread: https://twitter.com/EliShffrn/status/1213154198092574721
When was "previously?" because Illusionary Mask has worked the way it does for a long time now.

[Fox]

When was "previously?" because Illusionary Mask has worked the way it does for a long time now.

Mask originally did not cast cards. I imagine the banned period was between Standstill and Aether Vial.

Looks like Vial is a 2005 card, and rules update to Mask in 2009 (from Gatherer). It became increasingly impossible to justify continued ban after Vial explicitly avoided casting at far lower mana cost.

[ESG]

What else is there to build a deck around?

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/grn/067.jpghttps://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/311.jpghttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=397586&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=247183&type=cardhttps://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/053.jpghttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=380485&type=cardhttps://www.mtgpics.com/pics/reg/thb/058.jpg

Demonic Pact.

[bruizar]

Demonic Pact.

Going through gatherer I also found these:
https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=108892&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=3295&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=23181&type=card

There's not a lot of flash / self-sacrificing enchantments to fuel unfortunately. The Harpy won't be competitive soon, but it will be on my watch list. I'll keep an eye out on enchantments and enchantment creatures that synergize with it after a few more Theros revisits.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

You can go Turn 1 seal of fire and you are already ready for your turn 2 zombie.

[Fox]

Aphemia is fine by itself, but hardly powerful enough to justify a build-around. This is a card that results in a deck that dies to Goyf; and every card suggested in the build-around thus far plays even harder into dying to Goyf.

Among the better payoffs for Aphemia is spamming a playset of Search for Azcanta, which notably auto-kills itself (legend rule) and can mill into value generation, the ultimate endpoint being vindication of an enemy Wasteland (putting an enchantment in your yard). The legend+enchantment supertypes on a playable effect is going to be the best place to start looking for synergy. Not that Oath of Nissa is going to result in a competitive deck, but you‘d at least have Oko to cover for Aphemia‘s sub-par power level.

Standstill is another card that would do fine with Aphemia, but you can‘t really get past the whole dies to Goyf issue + sorcery speed (can‘t hold up Drown in the Loch). Aphemia must be directly compared to Blacklance Paragon here (and while better than Aphemia, it‘s not yet proven itself to be good enough for a UBstill shell due to lack of pilots).

Another card to list off would be Cast Out as the only playable enchantment with cycling; but BW is a pretty dubious starting point for a 2/1 in legacy.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Once upon a time I tried to use Auratog and the ordeals from the original theros. Hatching plans too. This card would have fit right in there, but an extra 2/2 a turn isn't really the big payoff

[Ronald Deuce]

Bequeathal seems good.

[Fox]

Bequeathal seems good.
Feeds into problem of dying before you ‘do the thing‘ - even less room for controlling elements as you‘re driving up creature totals (anti-combo with Aphemia) to locally enchant. Better one drops would be maindeck Mystic Remora with sideboard Mind Harness.

[FTW]

Yeah, he is basically a "augmented" TNN. It's hard to say how good that is at 4 mana though, because dodging Decay is nice, but at :w::w::r::r: which isn't the easiest cost to pay.

Is there a deck that makes a lot of mana and runs that Manifesting scepter? Maybe Landstill wants it as a 6/1 Progenitus it can cast under Standstill.

Edit: Never mind, read the citations.

Even without the Manifest combo, it dodges most Legacy removal (Bolt, StP, Push, Decay) because 1 cmc can never target it. So it doesn't die to removal, can't be blocked by tokens or 1 drops, and 67% chance their 2 drops can't block either. But it costs 4 mana...

[H]

Is there a deck that makes a lot of mana and runs that Manifesting scepter? Maybe Landstill wants it as a 6/1 Progenitus it can cast under Standstill.

Even without the Manifest combo, it dodges most Legacy removal (Bolt, StP, Push, Decay) because 1 cmc can never target it. So it doesn't die to removal, can't be blocked by tokens or 1 drops, and 67% chance their 2 drops can't block either. But it costs 4 mana...

Well, as was discussed before, there is no "Manifest combo" because the Rules Manager has ruled that if no number is selected, then he has protection from nothing at all.

Now, the card itself? I don't know. I can imagine it's not a "bad" Ball Lightning, but like I said, 4 CMC, a tough colored cost, it's hard to say how widely that could be played.

[Tylert]

Well, as was discussed before, there is no "Manifest combo" because the Rules Manager has ruled that if no number is selected, then he has protection from nothing at all.

Now, the card itself? I don't know. I can imagine it's not a "bad" Ball Lightning, but like I said, 4 CMC, a tough colored cost, it's hard to say how widely that could be played.

Mana cost is probably too colored for Legacy and there is no Tier 1 / 2 in these colors...

[Fox]

Is there a deck that makes a lot of mana and runs that Manifesting scepter? Maybe Landstill wants it as a 6/1 Progenitus it can cast under Standstill.

Edit: Never mind, read the citations.
UWr is a fairly poor color combo for Landstill, and one that couldn‘t really ever get to double red mana (and they can‘t really afford to run Wasteland, which generates significant problems vs any deck that has Stage). It‘s also another x/1 human that rewards opponents for playing Plague Engineer.

Even if it did work with the manifest mechanic, it still costs 4 to flip it so you‘re not saving yourself any mana. Meanwhile, you have to justify playing this slow card on top of Scroll of Fate and somehow not playing Dreadnought. If anyone would run Haktos, they‘d likely have to be a shields-down creature-feature deck with Cavern/Vial and get this guy into play face-up. Any deck like this would have Sanctum Prelate anyhow, so missing one cmc isn‘t much of a problem (just hope the missing number isn‘t 3 and opponent has a TNN or 2 and opponent has Strix/Coatl).

[Cire]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENfc0ldX0AA-mRf.jpg

Another THB card that is a 2 card combo . . this time with Shielded by Faith. Plus here is that it searches up the other half of the combo by itself. It is also GSZable. . .

A potential fun draft-list would be:

20 Lands
4 KOTR Land Targets

4 KOTR
4 Siona
4 GSZ Targets
8 Mana Dorks
4 GSZ

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Tutor Targets
4 Shielded by Faith

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/tbd/cards/dryadofilysiangrove.jpg

Dryad of Ilysian Grove 2G
Enchantment Creature - Nymph

You may play an additional land on each of your turns.

Lands you control have all basic land types in addition to other types.

2/4

Seems more usable than the Dinosaur who also explores. Are there any decks where the basic type stuff is relevant? Seems pretty good with Glacial Chasm + Loam for continued replaying each turn while Chasm can also create mana. But maybe that's just too cute.

[Fox]

It's all colors of mana being fixed as well @Barook

[Tylert]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENfc0ldX0AA-mRf.jpg

Another THB card that is a 2 card combo . . this time with Shielded by Faith. Plus here is that it searches up the other half of the combo by itself. It is also GSZable. . .

A potential fun draft-list would be:

20 Lands
4 KOTR Land Targets

4 KOTR
4 Siona
4 GSZ Targets
8 Mana Dorks
4 GSZ

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Tutor Targets
4 Shielded by Faith

Bonus point if you go Naia and combine it with Storm herald + Eldrazi conscription :)

[morgan_coke]

http://mythicspoiler.com/tbd/cards/dryadofilysiangrove.jpg

Dryad of Ilysian Grove 2G
Enchantment Creature - Nymph

You may play an additional land on each of your turns.

Lands you control have all basic land types in addition to other types.

2/4

Seems more usable than the Dinosaur who also explores. Are there any decks where the basic type stuff is relevant? Seems pretty good with Glacial Chasm + Loam for continued replaying each turn while Chasm can also create mana. But maybe that's just too cute.

I think you run that along WITH the exploration dinosaur in a 2G shell. Throw in the Crucible snake and actual Crucible and you've got redundancy on your combo for days, especially with GSZ. Toss in the Land search Elf and Nylea's Intervention and you've got a pretty decent land control shell with a combo finish. Say...

Dudes - 20
4x Exploration Dinosaur
4x Dryad of Explore
4x Crucible Snake
4x Land Search Elf
4x ESG

Artifacts - 8
4x Trinisphere
4x Crucible of Worlds

Search - 8
4x Nylea's Intervention
4x GSZ

Lands - 28
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Cryptic Cavern
1x Blast Zone
1x Tabernacle
4x City of Traitors
3x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
1x Bojuka Bog
10x Forest

I dunno, that's just a rough cut, but it seems like it has potential now that the search pieces have all been upgraded. Honestly, with the new "all lands type" dryad, maybe Valakut is a better/more flexible win con than Stage/Depths.

[Ace/Homebrew]

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attachments/172/703/637139241065267704.png

Elder Giants!

[aedemiel]

Elder Giants!

Yog-Sothoth basically.

[jmlima]

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attachments/172/703/637139241065267704.png

Elder Giants!

Is that escape thing gonna open another run of graveyard shenanigans with consequent bannings?

[Cire]

It's like forced evoke. you can do something pretty janky and run this dude alongside Sundial of the Infinite or stifle (and thus dreadnaught as well)?

[Fox]

Looks like they finally made a UG card that can reasonably compete with Goyf (as a big beater), and more importantly versus Goyf (head to head). That said, it's not really a legitimate competitor were DRS still legal; and the green and black modes of DRS kind of need to exist to police legacy. Only a matter of time before these effects show back up, so Uro will only ever exist on a timer.

Still Uro has the mandatory 6 power and ability to play other card types without growing Goyf out of range (due to escape exiling), which have classically plagued any attempt to out-Goyf a Goyf.

There was some talk a few posts back about Haktos and manifest, but Uro is a much better example of a card that plays nicely with Dreadnought things. While Uro is fine alone as a 3 mana basically uncounterable investment, he gets significantly better with a shell that can stock the yard, particularly in the context of a double duty card like Sundial.

As long as Oko is legal though, you'd need to bend over backwards to find a deck which actively does not want Oko before Uro. That deck kinda needs to be UG only, as Oko only fails when you don't have a 3rd color to kill the occasional 3/3s you'd be donating to opponents.

[FTW]

It‘s also another x/1 human

...creature-feature deck

Looks like you found the deck. Humans could run it at the top end. The colored mana is inconsequential as they run rainbowlands and Vial. It also makes more sense for them to run it over TNN due to the creature type. Most other decks could just run TNN.

[FTW]

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/attachments/172/703/637139241065267704.png

Elder Giants!

2 Explores!

6 mana on turn 3? 2 explores!

[Fox]

2 Explores!

6 mana on turn 3? 2 explores!

Yeah that kinda reinforces the whole belonging to Dreadnought thing, since Stifle combos with Lotus Field, and Uro combos with Lotus Field on the other side (tap 3 play it, dump Lotus into play and sac 2 lands into watch me escape).

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

PLay it, let the good trigger go off first.
Dump your lotus field into play
Then, activate your sundial of the infinite. exile both triggers.

It also works with Illusionary mask because it replaces the attack with turning it up and attacking!

[Fox]

PLay it, let the good trigger go off first.
Dump your lotus field into play
Then, activate your sundial of the infinite. exile both triggers.

It also works with Illusionary mask because it replaces the attack with turning it up and attacking!

No need to exile both the triggers, just spam the dude for 3 mana and dump Field into play and be 2 cards closer to escape. No need to add in Sundial there, but yes it does augment it.

On Illusionary Mask, a 2/2 declares an attack not the 6/6. You would have missed 2 triggers.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

No need to exile both the triggers, just spam the dude for 3 mana and dump Field into play and be 2 cards closer to escape. No need to add in Sundial there, but yes it does augment it.

On Illusionary Mask, a 2/2 declares an attack not the 6/6. You would have missed 2 triggers.
Sure there's no need to do it, but since you're already cheesing it...

The declaration of attackers is done in a very specific order as defined in rule 508.1. Tapping (508.1f) occurs before triggers trigger (508.1m). The reason why Mask gets around a card like Ensnaring Bridge (aka, a 2/2 declares the attack) is because such restrictions are checked before tapping (508.1c).
The tapping is what sets off Mask's replacement effect.

[Fox]

Sure there's no need to do it, but since you're already cheesing it...

The declaration of attackers is done in a very specific order as defined in rule 508.1. Tapping (508.1f) occurs before triggers trigger (508.1m). The reason why Mask gets around a card like Ensnaring Bridge (aka, a 2/2 declares the attack) is because such restrictions are checked before tapping (508.1c).
The tapping is what sets off Mask's replacement effect.

Yes, but at that point it‘s too late for the card that declared the attack was a 2/2 without text. There is no sequence by which the 6/6 side can be considered to have been face up when an attack was declared, thus no trigger.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Yes, but at that point it‘s too late for the card that declared the attack was a 2/2 without text. There is no sequence by which the 6/6 side can be considered to have been face up when an attack was declared, thus no trigger.

You attempted to tap a two two. You replaced that event by turning it face up and tapping it. Later the game will check to see if triggers should have triggered and when that check happens it's face up and has a trigger to trigger.

[Cire]

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/sqr7L2fXkbBHbJQ9ngivnf-970-80.png

3 mana flusterstorm that includes creatures and abilities?

[Seymour_Asses]

Yog-Sothoth basically.

pffff not even close

[colo]

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/sqr7L2fXkbBHbJQ9ngivnf-970-80.png

3 mana flusterstorm that includes creatures and abilities?

That card is... very interesting. Is this the first time an effect counters something without targeting it?

[Fox]

You attempted to tap a two two. You replaced that event by turning it face up and tapping it. Later the game will check to see if triggers should have triggered and when that check happens it's face up and has a trigger to trigger.

The attempting to tap doesn‘t really matter here, b/c the only reason you‘re tapping is that you‘re electing to declare an attack. So what declared the attack: a 2/2. What will be in combat from that point will be a 6/6 that is simply in combat but did not declare the attack.

I get what you‘re saying with the rules, but it really comes down to what does a “when/whenever x attacks...“ triggers really mean, and how they qualify getting triggered. Not being face-up when an attack was actually declared (by a player declaring “this 2/2 as my attacker“) means they didn‘t declare the attack with a 6/6, so they won‘t be eligible for the trigger that comes with a 6/6.

[Fox]

That card is... very interesting. Is this the first time an effect counters something without targeting it?

Summary Dismissal, Time Stop, Glorious End, Sundial of the Infinite. Technically Nether Void also qualifies.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The attempting to tap doesn‘t really matter here, b/c the only reason you‘re tapping is that you‘re electing to declare an attack. So what declared the attack: a 2/2. What will be in combat from that point will be a 6/6 that is simply in combat but did not declare the attack.

I get what you‘re saying with the rules, but it really comes down to what does a “when/whenever x attacks...“ triggers really mean, and how they qualify getting triggered. Not being face-up when an attack was actually declared (by a player declaring “this 2/2 as my attacker“) means they didn‘t attack with a 6/6, so they won‘t be eligible for the trigger that comes with a 6/6.

But that's not what happened. To declare an attacker requires you to

508.1. First, the active player declares attackers. This turn-based action doesn’t use the stack. To declare attackers, the active player follows the steps below, in order. If at any point during the declaration of attackers, the active player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the declaration is illegal; the game returns to the moment before the declaration (see rule 722, “Handling Illegal Actions”).
You're under the impression that declaring attackers is a thing done and then the game does stuff when the rules say that declaring an attacker is a process. You check the object all throughout this process. When you started the process it was a 2/2 to get under bridge, but by the time you're checking for triggers the process has made it a 6/6 with abilities.
The tapping is essential to making this work, because the order of steps matter.

[Fox]

But that's not what happened. To declare an attacker requires you to

You're under the impression that declaring attackers is a thing done and then the game does stuff when the rules say that declaring an attacker is a process. You check the object all throughout this process. When you started the process it was a 2/2 to get under bridge, but by the time you're checking for triggers the process has made it a 6/6 with abilities.
The tapping is essential to making this work, because the order of steps matter.
It would certainly make Mask better if it worked like you‘re saying, but there is a hole in the rules. The problem is a logical one of what the game object was when a player declared it an attacker. Yes all the replacement effects happen before priority is given, and all the replacement things are done in a no-priority batch.

Ensnaring Bidge isn‘t quite the right card to illustrate this concept. Most specifically E-Bridge states creatures with power greater than x may not be declared an attacker, and this has nothing to do with removing things already past declaration of attack. To illustrate: Geist of St. Traft attacking into a Bridge (2 cards in hand), defender gets whacked for 6.

Perhaps a better way illustrate the difference between the game object which was declared the attacker and what game object is treated as tapped and attacking would be this:
Suppose a card imposes a static tax on any game object over 2 power attempting to declare an attack; at no point would the Mask‘d 2/2 owner be required to pay said tax (in that combat) by flipping over into the 6/6.

Another example could be a card that has a ferocious clause and will generate 2 types of triggers, one for attacking with <4 power and a different one if the attacker was over 4 power. With the face-down 6/6 you would only get the trigger for a 2/2 stat line.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It would certainly make Mask better if it worked like you‘re saying, but there is a hole in the rules. The problem is a logical one of what the game object was when a player declared it an attacker. Yes all the replacement effects happen before priority is given, and all the replacement things are done in a no-priority batch.

Ensnaring Bidge isn‘t quite the right card to illustrate this concept. Most specifically E-Bridge states creatures with power greater than x may not be declared an attacker, and this has nothing to do with removing things already past declaration of attack. To illustrate: Geist of St. Traft attacking into a Bridge (2 cards in hand), defender gets whacked for 6.

Perhaps a better way illustrate the difference between the game object which was declared the attacker and what game object is treated as tapped and attacking would be this:
Suppose a card imposes a static tax on any game object over 2 power attempting to declare an attack; at no point would the Mask‘d 2/2 owner be required to pay said tax (in that combat) by flipping over into the 6/6.

Ensnaring bridge is the perfect card to illustrate this concept. When the process checks in step .1c it is a 2/2. But when you reach step .1f it's now a 6/6. It still being declared an attacker even though it clearly could not be one. If tapping happened first you wouldn't be able to send a Mask creature into the bridge because you have to do the steps in order.

Geist of St Traft is an irrelevant card to bring up because a creature put into play attacking is never declared as an attacker.
508.3a An ability that reads “Whenever [a creature] attacks, . . .” triggers if that creature is declared as an attacker. Similarly, “Whenever [a creature] attacks [a player or planeswalker], . . .” triggers if that creature is declared as an attacker attacking that player or planeswalker. Such abilities won’t trigger if a creature is put onto the battlefield attacking.
508.4c A creature that’s put onto the battlefield attacking or that is stated to be attacking isn’t affected by requirements or restrictions that apply to the declaration of attackers.
The rules are explicit that the token was never subject to any restriction, and implicitly say it was never declared as an attacker.

Your last example, the tax, is also covered in the rules and again it happens before tapping, it's covered in the same rule that covers bridge:
508.1c The active player checks each creature they control to see whether it’s affected by any restrictions (effects that say a creature can’t attack, or that it can’t attack unless some condition is met). If any restrictions are being disobeyed, the declaration of attackers is illegal.
When you make the tax check the creature is a 2/2 and won't be bigger until .1f, because you have to do .1c before you do .1f.

[Fox]

We're talking in circles here. Your rules interpretation is fine but there is a difference between what attacked and what is tapped and attacking. To get the trigger off the 6/6 you have to be able to point to it as the thing that was declared an attacker, and that's where the rules you're citing fall apart.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

We're talking in circles here. Your rules interpretation is fine but there is a difference between what attacked and what is tapped and attacking. To get the trigger off the 6/6 you have to be able to point to it as the thing that was declared an attacker, and that's where the rules you're citing fall apart.

You point to your 6/6 in step .1m. When you're getting under the bridge you point to it as still-a-2/2 in .1c. It doesn't fall apart if you just do what the rules say to do, unless you're doubting they're the same object.

[Cire]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/537415384098144279/663831221666709527/IMG_20200106_134610.png

The BR Titan

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/537415384098144279/663831221666709527/IMG_20200106_134610.png

The BR Titan

This titan cycle is still looking pretty good for masknought

[Cire]

This titan cycle is still looking pretty good for masknought

Something like . . .

4 Stiffle
4 Mask
2 Trickbind

4 Dreadnaught
8 Titans

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Other counter/kill/discard/etc

18 Lands

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Something like . . .

4 Stiffle
4 Mask
3 Torpor Orb

4 Dreadnaught
8 Titans

4 BS
4 Ponder
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Other counter/kill/discard/etc

18 Lands
Let's see what other titans there are.

[Cire]

Let's see what other titans there are.

I mean sure but I don't think you'll be running more than 8 of them regardless?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I mean sure but I don't think you'll be running more than 8 of them regardless?

Yeah, but the colors matter and there's a 9/8 flying trample and a 7/7 trample waiting their turn.

[rufus]

...
3 mana flusterstorm that includes creatures and abilities?

3 mana is a lot, and flusterstorm is way stronger in counter wars. I don't think it will see any legacy play.

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/TjROkyc.jpg

A little surprised to see no one having mentioned this yet. While Relic of Progenitus is the clear comparison, this card at least somewhat interestingly compares.

First, you get to hit something of you choice off the ETB trigger. Next, it takes no additional mana to get their whole 'Yard. Also, it does not hit your own 'Yard. Clear downside though, it does not cycle if you actually use it to eat their 'Yard. Just another interesting option. I think actually this is sort of nearer to something like Nihil Spellbomb except, of course, you don't need :B: at all, but in the sense of it's "speed" of use only not having the CA "baked in."

[Poron]

nice one. it blanks Grove of the Burnillows if PFire is in the graveyard when this is played

[Poron]

Titans are just the new ”Hunted”. Torpor Orb is still the answer

[bruizar]

Titans are just the new ”Hunted”. Torpor Orb is still the answer

I kind of like the Rakdos titan in a BR pox list. Weaker than Uro, but a better role player for pox than Uro is to control imo. 3 mana for 1 card and a healing salve is too much. What _could_ be nice is the combo of Emry, Lurker of the Loch to feed Escape with Uro and get it in the graveyard.
https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/221.jpg


In other news, this is a cool mana rock:
https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/231.jpg

New planeswalker
https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/thb/257.jpg

[BenBleiweiss]

Planeswalker Hatebear
https://i.redd.it/53l5qnb5gd941.png

[Tylert]

Planeswalker Hatebear
https://i.redd.it/53l5qnb5gd941.png

I'm glad this exists.
1 toughness thought :(

[Barook]

I'm glad this exists.
1 toughness thought :(
And that tax isn't going to do much except delay an immediate activation one turn. Only really good when your opponent is on Super Friends.

The real stinker is that it's one-sided, though. Fucking Wizards, when will they learn?

[BenBleiweiss]

Lab Maniac deck backup plan?

https://media.wizards.com/2019/thb/en_wfOXYXj8im.png

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Lab Maniac deck backup plan?

https://media.wizards.com/2019/thb/en_wfOXYXj8im.png

I would say it's the primary plan for such a deck because an ETB I win is better than a "next time I draw"
Actually, because it triggers on "equal to" you can combo with leveler and he fully protected from removal.... So tooth and nail?

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/vl3046O.png

Could help Enchantress vs. Leovold, but not Narset. Still, something of an option.

[Turboninja]

I would say it's the primary plan for such a deck because an ETB I win is better than a "next time I draw"
Actually, because it triggers on "equal to" you can combo with leveler and he fully protected from removal.... So tooth and nail?That's a sweet line of play. If Tooth and Nail resolves, there aren't many cards that stop that combo. Stifle, submerge, any card that forces an opponent to draw a card.

Sent from my BBF100-2 using Tapatalk

[Smuggo]

Yeah less mana for Thassa's Oracle and no need for an additional draw makes this the primary plan for the Labman deck now.

[Barook]

Yeah less mana for Thassa's Oracle and no need for an additional draw makes this the primary plan for the Labman deck now.
Yeah, it should be a more efficient kill in Oops, All Spells.

[BenBleiweiss]

Is it time for a https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-3b5vpig99v/images/stencil/500x659/products/440330/360654/ParadigmShift__19126.1570461582.jpg?c=2&imbypass=on

[Watersaw]

https://i.imgur.com/vl3046O.png

Could help Enchantress vs. Leovold, but not Narset. Still, something of an option.

It's interesting. For cmc4 removal there's Cast Out to compete with. Against Show and Tell or decks that only stick one creature at a time this could be better, you can drop him ahead of time and just shoot the first thing to show up. He sucks more against multiple threats and it's worth noting Sphere of Safety protects him while Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinement don't.

[rufus]

I would say it's the primary plan for such a deck because an ETB I win is better than a "next time I draw"
Actually, because it triggers on "equal to" you can combo with leveler and he fully protected from removal.... So tooth and nail?

There are lots of possibilities.

Not that it matters much, but does the X get set when the ability goes on the stack, or when it resolves?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

There are lots of possibilities.

Not that it matters much, but does the X get set when the ability goes on the stack, or when it resolves?

Resolution. Here's an Oracle ruling on Gary:

If an activated ability or triggered ability has an effect that depends on your devotion to a color, you count the number of mana symbols of that color among the mana costs of permanents you control as the ability resolves. The permanent with that ability will be counted if it’s still on the battlefield at that time.

[Cire]

Is it time for a [ParadigmShift]

That is very sexy . . . :eek:

[colo]

Maybe add some Rest in Peace and Energy Field for making sure there's nothing in the yard and buying time for finding the pieces...

[BenBleiweiss]

https://i.redd.it/k19eim353g941.png

Lore/Destiny/Fate Weaver 1G

Creatures and enchantment spells you control can't be countered.

3G:Target land you control becomes an X/X elemental until the end of turn with haste and trample, where X is the number of enchantments you control. It's still a land.

2/3

1G for a 2/3 that makes your creatures AND enchantments uncounterable? Seems good.

[Megadeus]

https://i.redd.it/k19eim353g941.png

Lore/Destiny/Fate Weaver 1G

Creatures and enchantment spells you control can't be countered.

3G:Target land you control becomes an X/X elemental until the end of turn with haste and trample, where X is the number of enchantments you control. It's still a land.

2/3

1G for a 2/3 that makes your creatures AND enchantments uncounterable? Seems good.

Holy fuck. Even without the activated ability the static with a 2/3 body seems so pushed. And at uncommon. Christ

[the Thin White Duke]

Holy fuck.

Indeed, this looks like a great build around.

[morgan_coke]

My plan to go in on Abzan Enchantments of DOOM! is looking better and better for upcoming standard. Only downside is that now instead of a niche tricksy plan it'll be the main thing that gets banhammered after a month of everyone hating it.

Birth of Meletis and Green Omen for fixing/selection and acceleration.
Black draw 3 for pure draw power.
Doom Foretold and Dance of the Manse for redundancy and endgame.
Oath of Kaya removal and lifegain (could also put white Omen here).
Setessan Champion, Polukranos and Fate Weaver for finishers, backed up by the black Raise Dead omen.
Throw in the WG 'walker plus various walkers of your choice from WAR..

It's a little slow, but given that Red is back to having Bolt cost 3 mana in this set, I don't think that's a huge problem.

[nupert]

https://i.redd.it/k19eim353g941.png

Lore/Destiny/Fate Weaver 1G

Creatures and enchantment spells you control can't be countered.

3G:Target land you control becomes an X/X elemental until the end of turn with haste and trample, where X is the number of enchantments you control. It's still a land.

2/3

1G for a 2/3 that makes your creatures AND enchantments uncounterable? Seems good.

It's also a human. And it allows to play creatures and enchantments through Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void. Could it enable cheaper Stompy variants alongside Cavern of Souls?


Lab Maniac deck backup plan?

https://media.wizards.com/2019/thb/en_wfOXYXj8im.png

This is a cEDH all star. Cards like Doomsday, Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact love this.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

And a better hermit druid combo.

And it improves the sacred Flash Hulk pile. Now you can do Sacred guide + Thassas Oracle and have 3 left for wild cantor/blood pet or some kind of removal.

[Final Fortune]

Indeed, this looks like a great build around.

Even with Green Sun's Zenith it is a hell of a 1x for like BANT? At 4x I am guessing Aggro Loam or NicFit? Shit, could be good in Elves too.

[malekith]

So Minotaur Combo Stompy?
.

What about the old DIDGERIDOO ?

https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600/pict/123899830881_/DIDGERIDOO-X1-MAGIC-Mtg-HOMELANDS.jpg

[Cire]

Nightmare Shepherd 2BB
Creature Enchantment - Demon
Flying
Every time another non token creature you control dies, you can exile it. If you do, create a 1/1 token that is a copy of that creature and it is a nightmare in addition to it's other types
4/4

Best I can come up with is this plus Ashnod's Altar plus Eternal Scourge (cast scourge, sac it for 2 mana, get a 1/1 token sac it for 2 mana, cast scouge from exile 1 mana up). It's like a bad version of Mono-Black Food Chain.

[Poron]

Enchantress becomes so much better every time we go to Theros that Narset is back a 2-3 of

[rufus]

Nightmare Shepherd 2BB
Creature Enchantment - Demon
Flying
Every time another non token creature you control dies, you can exile it. If you do, create a 1/1 token that is a copy of that creature and it is a nightmare in addition to it's other types
4/4

Best I can come up with is this plus Ashnod's Altar plus Eternal Scourge (cast scourge, sac it for 2 mana, get a 1/1 token sac it for 2 mana, cast scouge from exile 1 mana up). It's like a bad version of Mono-Black Food Chain.

Value plays like Mulldrifter seem like a better fit. I don't think this is viable as a combo piece.

[Cire]

Value plays like Mulldrifter seem like a better fit. I don't think this is viable as a combo piece.

Probably right . . . and actually . . . speaking of value plays you can hard cast your elder titans with Shepherd on the battlefield get their evoke and then get a mini 1/1 titan . . . get their "evoke" trigger again and if they live get their attack trigger.

[bruizar]

Value plays like Mulldrifter seem like a better fit. I don't think this is viable as a combo piece.

Fulminator Mage
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Vexing Devil

The entire affinity shell to support Arcbound Ravager

[Cire]

Shadowspear 1
Legendary Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature gets +1/+1 and has trample and lifelink.
1: Permanents your opponents control lose hexproof and indestructible until end of turn
Equip 2

That does quite a lot of its cost. Also the card doesnt seem to need to be equipped to activate its ability. Too bad it doesn't work on "Protection"

[PirateKing]

Shadowspear 1
Legendary Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature gets +1/+1 and has trample and lifelink.
1: Permanents your opponents control lose hexproof and indestructible until end of turn
Equip 2

That does quite a lot of its cost. Also the card doesnt seem to need to be equipped to activate its ability. Too bad it doesn't work on "Protection"

Also doesn't work on Shroud. Thought of killing Marit Lage, but then oh they'll just Rotate out a Sejiri Steppe in response. At least it gets around Sylvan Safekeeper, right? Let's check gatherer... nope, gives Shroud. Fuck.

[Barook]

Shadowspear 1
Legendary Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature gets +1/+1 and has trample and lifelink.
1: Permanents your opponents control lose hexproof and indestructible until end of turn
Equip 2

That does quite a lot of its cost. Also the card doesnt seem to need to be equipped to activate its ability. Too bad it doesn't work on "Protection"
This is going to be a staple in the 75 of Stoneforge decks. Even the equipment itself isn't too shabby at its cost.

[morgan_coke]

Shadowspear 1
Legendary Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature gets +1/+1 and has trample and lifelink.
1: Permanents your opponents control lose hexproof and indestructible until end of turn
Equip 2

That does quite a lot of its cost. Also the card doesnt seem to need to be equipped to activate its ability. Too bad it doesn't work on "Protection"

The +1+1 and lifelink means it'll let you go off with Ballista and Heliod without needing to activate Heliod, and with only a single counter on Ballista.

[Barook]

The +1+1 and lifelink means it'll let you go off with Ballista and Heliod without needing to activate Heliod, and with only a single counter on Ballista.
That makes it a 3-card combo. If you pay :2: for equipping or :1::w: for gaining lifelink doesn't make a difference, only not requiring 2 counters to go off does.

[Cire]

That makes it a 3-card combo. If you pay :2: for equipping or :1::w: for gaining lifelink doesn't make a difference, only not requiring 2 counters to go off does.

And it only saves you W mana (3 mana to cast equip instead of 3W Balista with additional counters and Heliod's ability).

But still you can probably include the combo in a white shell with SFM so you have more avenues of Comboing off?

[the Thin White Duke]

Is it just me, or does it look like the rares in the set will be more impactful than the mythics? Are we seeing a shift back to the original intent of mythic rares, where they do splashy things but aren't as OP as they've become? Could Wizards actually be helping make Magic cheaper to play?

[Michael Keller]

It's also a human. And it allows to play creatures and enchantments through Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void. Could it enable cheaper Stompy variants alongside Cavern of Souls?



This is a cEDH all star. Cards like Doomsday, Demonic Consultation and Tainted Pact love this.

Thought Lash, too.

[Cire]

Thought Lash, too.

That's also another interesting card to use with Thassa's oracle

[rufus]

That's also another interesting card to use with Thassa's oracle

Yeah, you can Mass Polymorph / Divergent Transformation ... into Oracle + Leveler / Phyrexian Devourer too.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Jace ult yourself.

[bruizar]

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/reg/thb/190.jpg

Nicfit? Reanimator? SNT?

Last time I check Black Lotus is a good card

[ReAnimator]

Of note this goes infi with Basalt and Grim Monoliths.

[bruizar]

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/reg/thb/190.jpg

Nicfit? Reanimator? SNT?

Last time I check Black Lotus is a good card


Found a home
Combo elves with natural order!

[ESG]

Nightmare Shepherd 2BB
Creature Enchantment - Demon
Flying
Every time another non token creature you control dies, you can exile it. If you do, create a 1/1 token that is a copy of that creature and it is a nightmare in addition to it's other types
4/4

Best I can come up with is this plus Ashnod's Altar plus Eternal Scourge (cast scourge, sac it for 2 mana, get a 1/1 token sac it for 2 mana, cast scouge from exile 1 mana up). It's like a bad version of Mono-Black Food Chain.

Add a Blood Artist to the mix and you've got a win.

[rufus]

Add a Blood Artist to the mix and you've got a win.

It only recycles bodies once since it only triggers on non-token creatures.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It only recycles bodies once since it only triggers on non-token creatures.

It's still an infinite loop, which involves two dies triggers.
One would be enough for the painter.

[rufus]

It's still an infinite loop, which involves two dies triggers.
One would be enough for the painter.

Yeah, I really ought to think more before typing.

That said, Cire's version already produces infinite creature tokens.

[Cire]

Yeah, I really ought to think more before typing.

That said, Cire's version already produces infinite creature tokens.

Nah - just infinite mana and infinite ETB and Death triggers - you have to keep saccing the tokens to be able to cast Scourge

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Nah - just infinite mana and infinite ETB and Death triggers - you have to keep saccing the tokens to be able to cast Scourge

Once you have infinite Mana you can lose some of it to not sac the tokens (net loss if one Mana per token)

[Cire]

Once you have infinite Mana you can lose some of it to not sac the tokens (net loss if one Mana per token)

lmao - i'm dumb and didn't understand my only combo :eek:. Lol thanks!

[itslarryyo]

Everyone single token looks good.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Everyone single token looks good.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-preview/tokens-theros-beyond-death-2020-01-09
lol, the link on that page refrences the card list for Throne, and there's a */1 with no ability to define the *.
QC, wizards...

[kombatkiwi]

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-preview/tokens-theros-beyond-death-2020-01-09
lol, the link on that page refrences the card list for Throne, and there's a */1 with no ability to define the *.
QC, wizards...

I can't see the reference to Eldraine in the text so I guess they corrected the article

Having a token with */* power and no PT-defining ability printed on the token is standard practice when the PT is set by the effect that created it
e.g.

*/* Colourless Horror (Phyrexian Rebirth)
*/* Black Nightmare Horror (Chainer's Torment)
*/* Black Minion (Phyrexian Processor)

etc

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I can't see the reference to Eldraine in the text so I guess they corrected the article

Having a token with */* power and no PT-defining ability printed on the token is standard practice when the PT is set by the effect that created it
e.g.

*/* Colourless Horror (Phyrexian Rebirth)
*/* Black Nightmare Horror (Chainer's Torment)
*/* Black Minion (Phyrexian Processor)

etc

https://i.imgur.com/KQSUMyk.png

Really? I should pay more attention to the tokens but that seems silly. Rebirth doesn't make a */* token, for example.

[morgan_coke]

Full Spoiler is up. Only thing that looked possibly relevant was a 3WW 3/3 flyer with devotion reduces costs by 1 each. Might have applications in DNT if they want just a body that has a high cmc for stuff like EE and whatnot.

[Cire]

We also got the story - seems we're heading to New Phyrexia Again! (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/theros-beyond-death-story-summary-2020-01-10)(with Ashiok).