The Fast and Teferius: Core Set 2021

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Spoilers begin the 4th of June. Leaks begin today:

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/gpqie4/core_2021_spoiler_season_starts_june_4th_from_the/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

[Barook]

I sure can't wait for the next hyper-pushed set sellers that are going to break every format. :rolleyes:

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I sure can't wait for the next hyper-pushed set sellers that are going to break every format. :rolleyes:

Don't worry, the bean counters at Hasbro will see declining sales and order The Coward Maro to change course and then we'll have sets of unplayable but the covid sets will still be playable but unopened and we'll be paying 40 bucks for this sets Misha's bauble/unezawa's jitte

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

My "uncle at Nintendo" resources are telling me that were getting a Smother that hits Planeswalkers too.

[Barook]

My "uncle at Nintendo" resources are telling me that were getting a Smother that hits Planeswalkers too.
Abrupt Decay and Trophy couldn't make a dent into Oko usage. I doubt that a more narrow card with a slightly easier mana cost would help alot, considering decks right now could easily run those BG cards with little punishment due to Astrolabe.

And outside of Teferi, who is going to rotate soon anyway, what Standard-legal PWs could it hit that mattered?

[Megadeus]

Elderspell is basically unplayable so even smother for walkers is probably bad. You'd need to tack on some advantage like B1, kill creature or Walker with 4 CMC or less, if walker killed this way draw a card. Or something like that. Otherwise it's just not flexible enough and not enough upside

[Barook]

Elderspell is basically unplayable so even smother for walkers is probably bad. You'd need to tack on some advantage like B1, kill creature or Walker with 4 CMC or less, if walker killed this way draw a card. Or something like that. Otherwise it's just not flexible enough and not enough upside
Exactly my thoughts. Walkers can instantly create an advantage nowadays - so even if you remove them, you fall behind.

[Humphrey]

Walkers continue to be a huge mistake

[morgan_coke]

Walkers continue to be a huge mistake

I think 'Walkers are fine in theory, it's just they've pushed so many of them well past the threshold for balance. If they highest end of 'Walker power was something like the six mana Sorin or OG Elspeth or Garruk, they'd be fine. But the power level is so high that it's just kind of a joke now.

[Humphrey]

Walkers would be okayish if they costed mana to activate. The whole mechanic is just antimagic

[mistercakes]

Agreed, creatures shouldn't need to compete with walkers.

[morgan_coke]

Agreed, creatures shouldn't need to compete with walkers.

They don't really, walkers are clearly better by and large. Literally the only thing creatures have going for them is some lower CMC's and a bigger selection to choose from.

[Humphrey]

Walkers are enchantments on crack with upkeep costs of +life. And protection of 14yrs of magic

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

What if a creature got to etb each turn, or risk not etb next turn to etb more powerfully this turn.
Oh and if it etbs enough you just win the game.

But they were introduced in, what? Lorwyn and yet dreadbore wasn't printed until RTR five years later.

[ahg113]

Dreadbore should be an instant, like terminate. But that would be too OP, since it isn't also awesome.

/rant

[Humphrey]

Dreadbore should be an instant, like terminate. But that would be too OP, since it isn't also awesome.

/rant


Would be mythic then though

[Barook]

Dreadbore should be an instant, like terminate. But that would be too OP, since it isn't also awesome.

/rant
Even then, most Walkers instantly generate CA once they ETB and you can't prevent that aside from countering them (or the activated ability). Since the trend is towards more cheaper, aggressively costed Walkers (like W&6 or Oko), there's even little to no real tempo advantage in killing them.

The Elderspell had the right idea, but the execution was ass, as it was too slow and too narrow. Until we get removal that can overcome that card disadvantage and isn't extremely slow and narrow, nothing is going to change.

[ahg113]

Even then, most Walkers instantly generate CA once they ETB and you can't prevent that aside from countering them (or the activated ability). Since the trend is towards more cheaper, aggressively costed Walkers (like W&6 or Oko), there's even little to no real tempo advantage in killing them.

The Elderspell had the right idea, but the execution was ass, as it was too slow and too narrow. Until we get removal that can overcome that card disadvantage and isn't extremely slow and narrow, nothing is going to change.

I disagree on the premise that an opponent playing a walker and getting a chance to use a loyalty ability isn't the problem if an instant can kill it in response. This turns a PW into an effective sorcery, or that creature that ETB then dies. The advantage in killing the PW is the stopping of continued CA. I have no problem with someone casting a Karn as a 4 mana generic wish, or an Oko to nerf a creature/create a food token.

[Fox]

Walkers should all have summoning sickness. It’s the least they could do since their abilities don’t cost mana.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Walkers should all have summoning sickness. It’s the least they could do since their abilities don’t cost mana.

They do and anyone who's played a Gideon can tell you

[Fox]

They do and anyone who's played a Gideon can tell you
I think you know what I mean ;)

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I think you know what I mean ;)

In seriousnes finding a way to respond to loyalty +/- instead of making it the cost would go a long way to "fixing" them.

[jmlima]

Planeswalkers with flash...

2UU
Flash
+1: Look at the top two cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the other on the bottom of your library.
-1: Exile target permanent you control. Return that card to the battlefield under its owner’s control at the beginning of the next end step.
-5: Take an extra turn after this one.
Starting Loyalty: 3


https://mtgazone.com/core-set-2021-leaks-rumors-and-teasers/

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Planeswalkers with flash...

2UU
Flash
+1: Look at the top two cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the other on the bottom of your library.
-1: Exile target permanent you control. Return that card to the battlefield under its owner’s control at the beginning of the next end step.
-5: Take an extra turn after this one.
Starting Loyalty: 3


https://mtgazone.com/core-set-2021-leaks-rumors-and-teasers/
This the new Teferi? A little tone deaf to give the black guy sleight of hand..

[H]

I wouldn't buy that card as real just yet, nothing confirms it and it looks kind of fake honestly.

[Barook]

This the new Teferi? A little tone deaf to give the black guy sleight of hand..
But it isn't Sleight of Hand - it's an instant speed Careful Study, but only half as effective. Take that as you will...

I also wonder if there's a way to break Vito. The effect is two mana cheaper than normally. It boosts drain effects and lifegain cards quite a bit.

Edit: I guess Martyr of Sands could be quite the nuke with it.

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/dhGccfy.png

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

But it isn't Sleight of Hand - it's an instant speed Careful Study, but only half as effective. Take that as you will...

I also wonder if there's a way to break Vito. The effect is two mana cheaper than normally. It boosts drain effects and lifegain cards quite a bit.

Edit: I guess Martyr of Sands could be quite the nuke with it.

...Are we talking about the same card? I think you misread what I quoted.

The card has flash, but having flash won't let you activate the abilities at instant speed. Just put it in play.

And the "look at two, put one into hand one on the bottom" Is the exact effect on sleight of hand. It draws zero cards and discards zero (Careful study is 2 and 2)

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/iX8Dk7i.png

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/Cgj5uY6.jpg

Looks like a sure EDH hit though.

[Barook]

https://i.imgur.com/iX8Dk7i.png
Seems good at stopping aggressive decks, but at 4 mana, who would play it in Eternal formats?

[H]

Seems good at stopping aggressive decks, but at 4 mana, who would play it in Eternal formats?

No one, I think the card is pretty much a bust. I find it hard to believe it would see play in any format, except maybe Standard at best. However, I guess maybe you could fit in EDH somehow?

[Humphrey]

https://i.imgur.com/Cgj5uY6.jpg


Looks like a sure EDH hit though.


What about storm?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://i.imgur.com/iX8Dk7i.png

So this is clearly a callback to Mangara of Corondor, but I don't think I've ever seen a callback card so unrelated to what it's calling back to.

[morgan_coke]

That Teferi is the most broken thing I've ever seen. And it's blue... yeah, gotta be real.

EDIT: not like, most broken card in history, but it's pretty unbelievably stupid. I cannot overstate how much better control deck wincons are with Flash. If this is real, I wonder if it was the final nail in the coffin of Agent of Treachery.

[ronco]

Planeswalkers with flash...

2UU
Flash
+1: Look at the top two cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the other on the bottom of your library.
-1: Exile target permanent you control. Return that card to the battlefield under its owner’s control at the beginning of the next end step.
-5: Take an extra turn after this one.
Starting Loyalty: 3


https://mtgazone.com/core-set-2021-leaks-rumors-and-teasers/They must have changed the article. Here's what it says now:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200604/b2f90ef32fa041dc6e53f5d81410e6ca.jpg

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[morgan_coke]

They must have changed the article. Here's what it says now:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200604/b2f90ef32fa041dc6e53f5d81410e6ca.jpg

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

I dunno about that one, the only mechanic I can think of that's less likely to come back than Phasing is Banding. Both are rules nightmares.

[Humphrey]

I think phasing is likely to come back, being og teferis signature move.

this teferi is just another fake though.

its interesting both fakes have the extra turn ultimate.

[Mr. Safety]

https://i.imgur.com/Cgj5uY6.jpg

Looks like a sure EDH hit though.

Ruby Storm players all have a chubby right now.

[mistercakes]

5 mana to do nothing for a turn. Best case following turn scenario is casting seething song or manamorphose, no other effect after that?

You also get the same trigger for sorcery spell. (didn't notice that at first glance). Let's call it fringe playable for now.

Hard pass until proven otherwise. Would love to be though!

[Fox]

It’s a Pyromancer’s Goggles you can’t grab out of a SB with Karn (so you don’t have to draw it).

[jmlima]

I think phasing is likely to come back, being og teferis signature move.

this teferi is just another fake though.

its interesting both fakes have the extra turn ultimate.

Probably fake indeed but, interestingly, the original article had one of those mobile phone images of the actual card. The image has also disappeared, of course with photoshop anything is possible.

[Barook]

It's interesting to see that WotC is finally shifting away from Maro's stupid stance that white shouldn't be able to get fresh cards somehow. Yet his influence is still heavily seen to gimp them as much as possible "to fit the color pie". Other recent examples are Cartographer's Hawk and Verge Rangers.

[H]

Probably fake indeed but, interestingly, the original article had one of those mobile phone images of the actual card. The image has also disappeared, of course with photoshop anything is possible.

The biggest likely tell is that the picture has it, one as card #35, which means somehow there are either almost no White cards, or almost no Blue cards. Second, it is extended art and those are numbered as XXX/___, not as 035/204. Not to mention, there aren't 204 cards in the set, there are 274. It is pretty much as fake as can be.

The text leak might be real though, the version with abilities that can be played as Instants.

[Fox]

If that new Teferi is real, they need to undo their “fix” to phasing, as it should exile tokens. It also represents a unique opportunity to take that random command zone and staple it to the battlefield (two half-zones in one overall zone). Kinda makes sense since your commander is kinda like on the battlefield (like in a general tent behind the lines); so too do we have battlefield’y things to keep track of like emblems.

The benefit is that supposedly complex mechanics make total sense:
-if a token attempts to go from the battlefield to the command zone it ceases to exist.
-if a creature is in combat then goes to the command zone, then comes back to battlefield in that same combat, it’s removed from combat.
-if a card goes from battlefield to command zone, it is reduced to printed characteristics only (continuous effects end).

^everyone knows these rules, so just run those things you know through two half-zones in same overall zone:
-tokens exiled, check
-removed from combat, check
-same object, yes (still in same overall zone). This also explains why summoning sickness does not re-appear on same object. This also explains how cards come back into phase as what they left as (continuous effects will resume, as it’s same object).

Now there is indirect phasing too, but that’s pretty easy to understand once you get the above scenario. Very easy way to simplify the rules, align the flavor of the command zone with the battlefield, and easily explain phasing. We call phasing a “static ability” but it works exactly like a half-zone change (because that’s how it was originally designed).

[H]

I don't see that happening, since they changed the rule explicitly to stop tokens from being Exiled. Because Phasing is not a zone change at all, it is a state.

In any case, the stream is live, the show should start in about 5 minutes or so.

[Fox]

I don't see that happening, since they changed the rule explicitly to stop tokens from being Exiled. Because Phasing is not a zone change at all, it is a state.
Yes, you have the option to memorize ~20 random rules about phasing....or you can get to the right answer every time by understanding it’s secretly a half-zone change. Thing is that the command zone should be stapled to the battlefield as a half-zone, because it makes sense.

Phasing was brought into the game as a zone change, and that’s why it operates like one. Calling it a state doesn’t change the history. Tapping and untapping is a state too, strange that phasing in and out is also a state but waffling between tap/untap doesn’t remove from combat, but phasing in/out does....almost like it’s not actually a state ;)

There’s also this little issue of what “state” means, namely that object A assumes a new state and is now object A with a new status - specifically that means is that object A is staying in the same overall zone, and thus did not become a new object. “State” does not mean an overall zone can’t be comprised of two halves through which an object can travel without becoming a new object.

[H]

Yes, you have the option to memorize ~20 random rules about phasing....or you can get to the right answer every time by understanding it’s secretly a half-zone change. Thing is that the command zone should be stapled to the battlefield as a half-zone, because it makes sense.

No, I'm not doing all this over again, thanks. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31913-Incoming-Phasing-Rules-Change-(with-C17))

I don't agree with you assuptions, or conclusions. And this is not the thread for it anyway.

[Barook]

Spoiler stream:

https://www.twitch.tv/magic

Ugin confirmed, Azusa is back, also Grim Tutor (WTF?).

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/ioMYqPV.png
https://i.imgur.com/CkJrzq0.png
https://i.imgur.com/2Hclopm.png

Very happy about Grim Tutor, one of the few cards I don't own.

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/vNsvP7E.png

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/H8eQ82y.png

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/FdHy3FB.png
https://i.imgur.com/3pEFMxk.png

[Barook]

https://i.imgur.com/H8eQ82y.png
Getting it countered is going to hurt. Good casting cost for Workshop decks. Vial also lets you get around the discard cost. Might be cool.

Edit:
A fucking CatDog:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZwZ_YQXsAgzxg-?format=png&name=small

Containment Priest is also Modern-legal now (terrible art, though):
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZwZw7EXgAIObQl?format=png&name=small

[H]

Getting it countered is going to hurt. Good casting cost for Workshop decks. Vial also lets you get around the discard cost. Might be cool.

Good points. Might be something as a one-of for D&T maybe? Or Esper Vial?

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/w2VujKG.png
https://i.imgur.com/plH9AA1.png

[Barook]

Good points. Might be something as a one-of for D&T maybe? Or Esper Vial?
We'll see how playable it's going to be. The beauty about vialing it in is that you should have 3-4 mana available to instantly start eating walkers. If you vial it in EoT of your opponent's turn, you should have enough mana to even eat Okos if you include the untap step. Not really mana-efficient, but better than nothing.

[Fox]

Masticore looks like the best thing you can be doing against Oko (without playing Oko) so that’s nice...but the level of power creep required to hold down Oko is pretty egregious. The indestructible clause really shouldn’t be on there, but printing Ice-Fang was such a mistake that you need to attack that card to get to Oko, and the 4th point of toughness needed to bat away elks. WotC continues to back themselves into a design corner.

Contrast to Phyrexian War Beast and also to last set with Crystalline Giant.

[morgan_coke]

Look, my giant black lab and my tiny little kitten are best friends. I am 100% making a playing a Rin and Seri deck. I strongly suspect I am not alone in this. #DogCat 4 lyfe.

EDIT: I think the return of Phasing is a huge mistake that they will regret, but whatevs, at least it's not Banding. I mean, seriously, you can do this but you can't bring back the "Bury" keyword?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Look, my giant black lab and my tiny little kitten are best friends. I am 100% making a playing a Rin and Seri deck. I strongly suspect I am not alone in this. #DogCat 4 lyfe.

EDIT: I think the return of Phasing is a huge mistake that they will regret, but whatevs, at least it's not Banding. I mean, seriously, you can do this but you can't bring back the "Bury" keyword?

Cants and dogs, living together!
Mass hysteria!

[Kage]

Looks like all the leaks were legit, we have the PW+Creature Smother confirmed as well.

[H]

Looks like all the leaks were legit, we have the PW+Creature Smother confirmed as well.
https://i.imgur.com/roHjfOR.png

(Destroy target Creature or Planeswalker with CMC less or equal to 3.)

I guess now you can Grixis with Decay-lite.

[alphastryk]

https://i.imgur.com/roHjfOR.png

(Destroy target Creature or Planeswalker with CMC less or equal to 3.)

I guess now you can Grixis with Decay-lite.

With this hitting creatures as well, I can see it being fringe playable if you're not also in green.

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/e6TejAh.jpg

They sure are leaning into the EDH market segment, it seems.

https://i.imgur.com/SCGqpWr.png

Why 4? I think this card would have much, much more playable if it was 3 artifacts. That is still a bit body, so maybe you could Dragon Stompy with this still...

[Wrath of Pie]

https://i.imgur.com/e6TejAh.jpg

They sure are leaning into the EDH market segment, it seems.


It is likely their most profitable market segment after all.

[H]

It is likely their most profitable market segment after all.

Yeah, I actually think it is a wise strategy, just surprised it took them as long as it did to really lean into it. (But I shouldn't be.)

[ReAnimator]

https://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/llanowarvisionary.jpg

Hybrid Visionary/Llanowar

Probably not good enough but fun and interesting.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

How did I miss calling this thread The Flash and Teferius...

[Cire]

https://i.imgur.com/e6TejAh.jpg


Best I can come up with is Combo with Filigree Sages . . . 8U for two cards, generate infinite mana then draw infinite cards, pop a winner. You can break it up over a couple turns and I guess you can run cards like Etherium Sculptor and Foundry Inspector for it to cost 2 less. .

[morgan_coke]

There's a Dog Lord!! Woot Woot. This is officially the best Core Set ever.

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/avatars/thumbnails/276/411/200/283/637269799128403026.jpeg

[ReAnimator]

There's a Dog Lord!! Woot Woot. This is officially the best Core Set ever.

https://media.mtgsalvation.com/avatars/thumbnails/276/411/200/283/637269799128403026.jpeg

The question remains, who at Wotc decided to let these out?
Who?
Who?
Who?

[Fox]

There better be a Dog'atog.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

There better be a Dog'atog.

Houndadog

[itslarryyo]

Houndadog

This made my day for some reason.

100% someone is getting my money for that cat/dog thing. Themed decks making a comeback!

[Barook]

Best I can come up with is Combo with Filigree Sages . . . 8U for two cards, generate infinite mana then draw infinite cards, pop a winner. You can break it up over a couple turns and I guess you can run cards like Etherium Sculptor and Foundry Inspector for it to cost 2 less. .
The main problem that still remains is that Orrery costs :7:. Splitting up the mana cost over multiple turns is a questionable proposal and is basically asking for it to get Elk'd.

Probably better with Workshops. In Legacy, there are Metalworker and Forgemaster, but both suffer from the Elk Syndrom as well (unless you have Greaves to haste things up.).

@Llanowar Visionary: The good old "Slap to cards together and call it a day". :rolleyes: At least it doesn't cost :1::g::g:.

Edit: It's worth noting that Pack Leader protects itself while attacking. Good Boi.

This might have some potential with Mirror Entity.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/necromentia.jpg

[Fox]

So you exile the things and then die to the [up to] 8 power of Zombros you donated them? Seems like a much worse Unmoored Ego/Lost Legacy.

[mistercakes]

So you exile the things and then die to the [up to] 8 power of Zombros you donated them? Seems like a much worse Unmoored Ego/Lost Legacy.

You're thinking about it wrong. :)

It's not designed for competitive play. It's an edh card. One zombie. :)

[PirateKing]

So you exile the things and then die to the [up to] 8 power of Zombros you donated them? Seems like a much worse Unmoored Ego/Lost Legacy.

They only get the Zombies if they have the card(s) in their hand.

Same way the opponent only draw cards off Unmoored Ego and Lost Legacy if they're holding them.
So you could give them 8 power, yes, but they'd need to be holding 4-of-a-kind.
Most likely it will be 0 or 2 power they gain as a result.

Depending on your deck, giving them a token is safer than giving them a card, so I think it's worth considering in decks that ran the previous iterations.
Slaughter Games, while being the most expensive, is still probably the best version of the effect. Control decks holding up countermagic get ripped into hard with it.

[Fox]

Unmoored Ego hits basics, it’s the winner in my book.

[morgan_coke]

http://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/necromentia.jpg

That effect really needs to cost 2 if they want it to be fast enough to be effective against combo.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The obvious comparison is unmoored ego, and I think it has an edge because it's mono colored. Also the trade off here is a 2/2 or a card. You can also next-level yourself by letting them keep one or more copies in their hand if you're so scared of the ,
2/2.
So I'm thinking a role playing modern card.
Better than ego when naming valakut, worse against combos with redundancy.

[Barook]

It isn't an Uro, but reminds me of QB in terms of power creep:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ-0wB6U8AMXGEZ?format=png&name=small

Edit:
https://i.redd.it/8a7n5tjt6n351.jpg


"See the Truth" 1U
Sorcery (Rare)
Look at the top three cards of your library. Choose one to put in your hand and others under your library in any order. If you cast this spell from anywhere else than your hand, put all cards in your hand.

So you get a 2-mana Recall if you flash it back with Snapcaster? Even at Sorcery speed, this seems overall better than Accumulated Knowledge.

[morgan_coke]

It isn't an Uro, but reminds me of QB in terms of power creep:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZ-0wB6U8AMXGEZ?format=png&name=small

Edit:
https://i.redd.it/8a7n5tjt6n351.jpg


So you get a 2-mana Recall if you flash it back with Snapcaster? Even at Sorcery speed, this seems overall better than Accumulated Knowledge.

Also works well with Underworld Breach/LED. Or Past in Flames in Modern.

[Mr. Safety]

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/m21/232.jpg

Cryptic Masterpiece

Artifact 2

T, Put a page counter on Cryptic Masterpiece: Scry 1.
2, T, Put a page counter on Cryptic Masterpiece: Draw a card.
Whenever Cryptic Masterpiece has four or more page counters on it, exile it. If you do, gain 4 life.

Anybody see potential for this?

[Barook]

Anybody see potential for this?
Seems expensive, at least in the context of Legacy. It needs to draw twice to get real CA since it does nothing on its own. Not a fan of this.

[morgan_coke]

Seems expensive, at least in the context of Legacy. It needs to draw twice to get real CA since it does nothing on its own. Not a fan of this.

Jayemdae Tome, formerly one of the best cards in Magic, sits quietly in a corner and cries.

[Cire]

See the Truth seems really good with Snapcaster

[Mr. Safety]

See the Truth seems really good with Snapcaster

I know it's moot, but could you imagine See the Truth with a Wrenn&6 ultimate?

[Fox]

https://www.mtgpics.com/pics/big/m21/232.jpg

Cryptic Masterpiece

Artifact 2

T, Put a page counter on Cryptic Masterpiece: Scry 1.
2, T, Put a page counter on Cryptic Masterpiece: Draw a card.
Whenever Cryptic Masterpiece has four or more page counters on it, exile it. If you do, gain 4 life.

Anybody see potential for this?

Karn wishes from exile. Nesting Grounds also sustains. That said, it’s probably about equivalent to Treasure Map

[Cire]

I know it's moot, but could you imagine See the Truth with a Wrenn&6 ultimate?

Actually, probably also very good with Shardless? It's another draw 3 alongside Ancestral Vision . . .

[Fox]

Actually, probably also very good with Shardless? It's another draw 3 alongside Ancestral Vision . . .
Chandra, ToD/Outpost Seige types. Karn wish Uba Mask. Red’s steal-caster mage.

[BenBleiweiss]

Ok, this has gotta be good in burn right?
https://i.redd.it/2vtuzt1q3p351.jpg

[Barook]

T2 Fireblast, Incinerator is going to be pretty strong against a couple of decks. But as long as Oko remains legal in Legacy, it isn't much more than a glorified Elk.

[mistercakes]

actually this makes rift bolt really cool.

t1 suspend rift bolt. t2 bolt, play this guy. i'm still going to t1 goblin guide over rift bolt, but it's interesting that it's an option. it's also really cool with eidolon. if this guy is in play and they brainstorm, you can kill a delver for free.

i think it's easily worth a test. it doesn't add a ton of value against non-creature decks.

[Cire]

Bolts reduce its cost by 3 with a floor of R, meaning unless you play acceleration which Burn doesn't usually, this is a turn 3 play (2 burn spells plus this guy for RRR) . . . even with Turn 1 Rift Bolt you need another bolt spell to get this guy into play. If you assume that he replaces a bolt then he breaks even on the next bolt (Without him, 2 cards -> 6 damage. With him 2 cards -> 6 damage) you're only reaping the benefits on the second bolt you cast after he comes out. So on a straight up burn deck it will only be better than another bolt in this exact scenario:

Turn 1 - Mountain - Rift Bolt
Turn 2 - Mountain - Bolt, Chandra's Incinerator
Turn 3 - [Mountain] - Bolt, Bolt/Fireblast

Or you can cast him and follow up with a Fireblast the turn it enters into play but that only gains you 1 extra point of damage instead of a bolt. You might get bigger dividends with Price of Progress?

[Barook]

T1 Seal of Fire + any T2 one mana 3 damage spell enables it as well. Not that Burn would normally run Seal of Fire, just saying. We'll see how busted this thing really is going to be.


http://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/villagerites.jpg

Village Rites :b:
Instant
As an addition cost to cast this spell, sacrifice a creature.
Draw two cards.

Skulltap has become pretty efficient over time. Since it's an instant, you can play it in response to removal, essentially giving you +1 CA over your opponent. Also pretty silly with Veteran Explorer. Combos with Snapcaster and Young Pyromancer. I'd keep an eye on that one.

[BenBleiweiss]

T1 Seal of Fire + any T2 one mana 3 damage spell enables it as well. Not that Burn would normally run Seal of Fire, just saying. We'll see how busted this thing really is going to be.


http://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/villagerites.jpg


Skulltap has become pretty efficient over time. Since it's an instant, you can play it in response to removal, essentially giving you +1 CA over your opponent. Also pretty silly with Veteran Explorer. Combos with Snapcaster and Young Pyromancer. I'd keep an eye on that one.

I think that people are also completely discounting that once it's in play, it doubles all of the damage spells you cast until it's dealt with.

[Fox]

One thing to note about YP is that if you sac YP, you will not get a token by casting this spell. This was not an uncommon mistake with Mentor and Cabal Therapy when people were playing Esper Mentor years back.

[PirateKing]

I think that people are also completely discounting that once it's in play, it doubles all of the damage spells you cast until it's dealt with.

It just doesn't.
With him in play a Bolt to the face is 3 free damage to a creature or Planeswalker, which is great if they have a creature or a Planeswalker. Otherwise, it's a Bolt to the face. Nothing is being doubled.
It's disingenuous like saying Searing Blaze deals 6 damage with Landfall. Sure 3+3=6, but if they're at 5 do I win the game?

[Cire]

@BenBleiweiss - it doubles all the damage spells but you're only gaining its benefits only on and after the second bolt you cast after he lands.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I think that people are also completely discounting that once it's in play, it doubles all of the damage spells you cast until it's dealt with.

It doesn't hit players.
I thought it did too.

[Cire]

It doesn't hit players.
I thought it did too.

Ah . . . wow. . . missed that too . . . :eek:

[ahg113]

So, as far as Legacy goes, the red creature is a fail, right? It seems a fail. From a ridiculous casting cost and gimmick reducer, to the limited actual ability. 6/6 trample is nice, but no haste. So as stated previously, removal/nerf bait, thanks for playing.

[Fox]

So, as far as Legacy goes, the red creature is a fail, right? It seems a fail. From a ridiculous casting cost and gimmick reducer, to the limited actual ability. 6/6 trample is nice, but no haste. So as stated previously, removal/nerf bait, thanks for playing.

Come now man, it’s clearly already a staple in Vial Smasher the Fierce decks. This new creature basically casts itself.:cool:

[Glass House]

Ok, this has gotta be good in burn right?
https://i.redd.it/2vtuzt1q3p351.jpg

Even with it not hitting players, this is Satyr Firedancer with a broader effect plus a capable body. It hits like a truck and makes it so you can aim all your burn at your opponent's face. I think it could very well be relevant in some Burn matchups.

Edit: though it now came to me the idea that this could be pretty good in some modified Red Prison list. Imagine it paired with Chandra, Torch of Defiance or Sulfuric Vortex. You will be shocking creatures every turn for no cost, which sounds brutal.

[mistercakes]

anyone else excited about 1W exile target planeswalker? not crazy that miracles gets another tool, but it's good to have some options.

[Fox]

anyone else excited about 1W exile target planeswalker? not crazy that miracles gets another tool, but it's good to have some options.

I don’t think it’s all that much better than Tale's End (unplayed) when it comes to gunning right at a PW. You can’t really use either Tale’s End or this new card this over CJ and have the relevant interaction you need in this format. Oko can tank TNN usage, but the card still has to be respected. The slots you’re talking about need that dual function of TNN-killer and PW killer in one; and they’ve got really strong competition [Pyroblast/REB].

You let Oko resolve and you just lost whatever not-Oko PW you had in play. Honestly this effect needs to say “counter target ability of a PW, then exile the PW.”

[morgan_coke]

anyone else excited about 1W exile target planeswalker? not crazy that miracles gets another tool, but it's good to have some options.

It's a bit more than that.

1W Instant
Exile target creature or planeswalker, it's controller creates a 4/4 flying angel token.

[Cire]

It's good - it's removal and you can target your own doomed PW for an angel . . .

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

It's good - it's removal and you can target your own doomed PW for an angel . . .

Finally a playable fog!

[BenBleiweiss]

It doesn't hit players.
I thought it did too.

I should RTFC :(

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

https://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/pursuedwhale.html
From hell's depths i cast at +three!

[ESG]

Chandra's Incinerator probably vies for Monastery Swiftspear's spot in Burn. I'm definitely going to test it.

[jmlima]

https://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/pursuedwhale.html
From hell's depths i cast at +three!

Now I can finally legitimately bring my harpoon to a game.

[jmlima]

Chandra's Incinerator probably vies for Monastery Swiftspear's spot in Burn. I'm definitely going to test it.

Ultimately, it's a bit of meeh because it has no protection from anything. It's boom-boom-cast creature - daze / fow / path / elk it. At least with the swift girl you get some points of damage 90% of the time.

[Glass House]

https://img.scryfall.com/cards/large/front/0/5/0540ee72-6370-4f70-9526-6f441b3cac1e.jpg?1591674360

This spell costs 2U less to cast if you have cast an instant or sorcery this turn.

Flying

Prowess

When ~ enters the battlefield, scry 2.

[Tobitzki]

Ultimately, it's a bit of meeh because it has no protection from anything.

Unlike all other Burn creatures it has "protection" from Bolt, Decay, and Push, and if it gets Elked they effectively lost 3 life (Food) and spent 3 mana while you still got a 3/3 for R.

That Stormwing thing goes into UR Delver Phoenix for Pteramander. Gut Shot can T2 this. And the Scry sets up upkeep Thought Scour to bin a Bird.

[Barook]

Unlike all other Burn creatures it has "protection" from Bolt, Decay, and Push, and if it gets Elked they effectively lost 3 life (Food) and spent 3 mana while you still got a 3/3 for R.

That Stormwing thing goes into UR Delver Phoenix for Pteramander. Gut Shot can T2 this. And the Scry sets up upkeep Thought Scour to bin a Bird.
Manamorphose can also set it up on T2.

Given how there are various, easy ways to set up Incinerator, I wouldn't be surprised if it eventually became a new staple in Burn.

[Mr. Safety]

Ultimately, it's a bit of meeh because it has no protection from anything. It's boom-boom-cast creature - daze / fow / path / elk it. At least with the swift girl you get some points of damage 90% of the time.

All of those cards didn't stop Tarmogoyf from being incredible, and this is a potential 6/6 for R, enabled by doing what you were going to do anyways. I think Incinerator is a trap if you try to fill your deck with Rite of Flame (etc) to enable it, but if you are playing lands and bolts on-curve you are getting a 6/6 trampler for R. I mean jesus-fucking-Christ, this is the easiest no-brainer good card out of the set. Are we actually saying a trampling 6/6 for functionally 1 mana: 'meh, probably not good enough'? I expect the old 'it can get countered or dies to removal' argument from Standard players, but I didn't expect it from TheSource.

Pros
1 - It outclasses Gurmag Angler
2 - most of the time it will outclass Tarmogoyf
3 - it has trample, so it outclasses True Name Nemesis
4 - it's a fucking 6/6 that can't be hit by Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push, or Lightning Bolt
5 - if it's Elk-ed it's still a 3/3 for R, which is still a Wild Nacatl.
6 - It also allows your Lava Spike and Chain Lightning to act as removal spells, while still dealing 3 damage.

Cons

1 - it doesn't choke me or pull my hair while it's fucking me. Boo! No good!

[Glass House]

Yeah I can't remember the last time that "dies to removal" had any validity and it puzzles me to still see this argument show up to dismiss new cards.
Though you have missed out a con, and that is being a terrible topdeck. But you can probably try to remedy this by gearing your list with repeatable noncombat damage sources, like Grim Lavamancer.

[morgan_coke]

Yeah I can't remember the last time that "dies to removal" had any validity and it puzzles me to still see this argument show up to dismiss new cards.
Though you have missed out a con, and that is being a terrible topdeck. But you can probably try to remedy this by gearing your list with repeatable noncombat damage sources, like Grim Lavamancer.

Keldon Megaliths!

Ramunap Ruins!

Their TIME HAS COME!!!

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/yQxW0am.png?1

I think this is just barely not good enough, but it is interesting, say, combined with Sylvan Library (and Blue cards of course).

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/7JuClWu.png


Creature - Human Cleric Lifelink 1/1

When Archdemon's Vessel enters the battlefield, if it entered from your graveyard or was cast from your graveyard, exile it. If you do, create a 5/5 black demon creature token with flying.

Unearth? Imagine if Lurrus was still legal...

[Fox]

on Incenerator...
I mean you could have played 2x Volc and Thing in the Ice this whole time in burn if this is what you wanted - a dude in play and an empty hand.

[PirateKing]

All of those cards didn't stop Tarmogoyf from being incredible, and this is a potential 6/6 for R, enabled by doing what you were going to do anyways. I think Incinerator is a trap if you try to fill your deck with Rite of Flame (etc) to enable it, but if you are playing lands and bolts on-curve you are getting a 6/6 trampler for R. I mean jesus-fucking-Christ, this is the easiest no-brainer good card out of the set. Are we actually saying a trampling 6/6 for functionally 1 mana: 'meh, probably not good enough'? I expect the old 'it can get countered or dies to removal' argument from Standard players, but I didn't expect it from TheSource.

Pros
1 - It outclasses Gurmag Angler
2 - most of the time it will outclass Tarmogoyf
3 - it has trample, so it outclasses True Name Nemesis
4 - it's a fucking 6/6 that can't be hit by Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push, or Lightning Bolt
5 - if it's Elk-ed it's still a 3/3 for R, which is still a Wild Nacatl.
6 - It also allows your Lava Spike and Chain Lightning to act as removal spells, while still dealing 3 damage.

Cons

1 - it doesn't choke me or pull my hair while it's fucking me. Boo! No good!

The negatives really just come down to timing. 6/6 for R presumes it's your third spell of the turn, so nominally turn 3, turn 2 at the fastest with a suspended Rift Bolt.
But then, again nominally, the third spell of your third turn would be the sixth spell of the game, which means you should have done 15 damage already, this spell being 18 damage total.
The arguments that it outclasses Gurmag Angler presumes that there is ever an instance where Burn wants to fight a Gurmag Angler, and that the best removal isn't the removal of the opponent through state based effects.
The window of the game when this creature starts being relevant is the same window when the game should be ending with any topdeck burn spell, which incidentally is the worst time to draw this.
I'm not saying this creature doesn't have a place in Legacy, I just don't see cutting any cards in my Burn list to run this creature.

[Barook]

The negatives really just come down to timing. 6/6 for R presumes it's your third spell of the turn, so nominally turn 3, turn 2 at the fastest with a suspended Rift Bolt.
But then, again nominally, the third spell of your third turn would be the sixth spell of the game, which means you should have done 15 damage already, this spell being 18 damage total.
The arguments that it outclasses Gurmag Angler presumes that there is ever an instance where Burn wants to fight a Gurmag Angler, and that the best removal isn't the removal of the opponent through state based effects.
The window of the game when this creature starts being relevant is the same window when the game should be ending with any topdeck burn spell, which incidentally is the worst time to draw this.
I'm not saying this creature doesn't have a place in Legacy, I just don't see cutting any cards in my Burn list to run this creature.
You can enable it on T2 with Rift Bolt, Fireblast (and even Seal of Fire if this thing turns out to be good enough).

This thing gives Burn staying power if the match gets drawn out. A 6/6 trampler with upside is nothing to sneeze at as your burn can still be used in both offensive and defense while still targeting their face. This is especially important in a format where everybody spams Elks, Strixes and Coatls. You nuke their face AND clear the way.

If a 6/6 trampler with upside that can come down on T2 or T3 with literally no downside is too weak, I don't know anymore. :rolleyes:

[Fox]

@Barook Burn counts on piecemeal damage starting on turn 1 (Guide/Swiftspear). Incinerator, like Delver, gets worse with other creatures. So you sac all Eidolon (never happening) or a playset of your turn 1 dudes...so there goes most of your turn 1 openers (recall that you have to sandbag every card not called Rift Bolt or 1-drop dude, and wait for turn 2...and a second land).

So you maybe get this 6/6 on turn 2 playing headlong into Daze, but let’s say it resolved; you’re running out of cards in hand to capitalize on the bottom part of that text box...and you’re putting Eidolon off until turn 3 now?

[PirateKing]

I'm not saying it's too weak, I'm saying it is antithetical to the classic game plan of Burn.
If anything, it's too strong.
If it were a 4/4 trample for 3R, that's a whole other discussion. Turn 2 powered out by any burn spell, sign me up.

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/u2reK3L.png

Risky but interesting. Maybe a one-of sideboard in Maverick sort of decks in matches where you expect to be grinding?

[wcm8]

https://i.imgur.com/yQxW0am.png?1

I think this is just barely not good enough, but it is interesting, say, combined with Sylvan Library (and Blue cards of course).

I think this is actually plenty good enough. It's almost trivially easy to hit a 2nd draw via cantrips, Sylvan Library, and also by casting Brainstorm on your opponent's turn. It's like a more fragile Green version of Bitterblossom, except that the tokens are quite a bit more powerful and can take over a game quickly.

It being legendary does make it harder to justify running more than 1 or 2 copies, but I think any UGx aggro-control decks could definitely consider slotting a copy in their 75.

[Kap'n Cook]

https://i.imgur.com/u2reK3L.png

Risky but interesting. Maybe a one-of sideboard in Maverick sort of decks in matches where you expect to be grinding?

I’m going to test this as a karn target in Shortcake. Get ready for this thing to be Welded and Engineered back and forth like crazy

[H]

I’m going to test this as a karn target in Shortcake. Get ready for this thing to be Welded and Engineered back and forth like crazy

Oh, wow, in my haste, I failed to even read the card properly and notice the "until Idol leaves the battlefield" clause there. Definitely much better, considering that.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Yeah I can't remember the last time that "dies to removal" had any validity and it puzzles me to still see this argument show up to dismiss new cards.
Though you have missed out a con, and that is being a terrible topdeck. But you can probably try to remedy this by gearing your list with repeatable noncombat damage sources, like Grim Lavamancer.

Dies to removal has validity in the world where cards having built-in advantage is so ubiquitous. Simply trading one-for-one just isn't good enough.

[H]

It being legendary does make it harder to justify running more than 1 or 2 copies, but I think any UGx aggro-control decks could definitely consider slotting a copy in their 75.

Yeah, since most UGx decks have the majority of their cards say, at least, "Draw a card" (or more), this seems like just straight gravy to add as a fun-of. Legendary could help a bit in that sense, since you can protect it with Karakas. Even if you only manage to Brainstorm in response to removal on her, I don't think that is terrible value, per se. We shall see though.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

You can enable it on T2 with Rift Bolt, Fireblast (and even Seal of Fire if this thing turns out to be good enough).

This thing gives Burn staying power if the match gets drawn out. A 6/6 trampler with upside is nothing to sneeze at as your burn can still be used in both offensive and defense while still targeting their face. This is especially important in a format where everybody spams Elks, Strixes and Coatls. You nuke their face AND clear the way.

If a 6/6 trampler with upside that can come down on T2 or T3 with literally no downside is too weak, I don't know anymore. :rolleyes:

It doesn't give burn staying power if the match gets drawn out because if the match gets drawn out you're going to have to pay full price. Unless the match is drawn out because you're not casting spells in which case who's fault is it that the match is drawn out? Win the game already!

[Watersaw]

https://i.imgur.com/yQxW0am.png?1

I think this is just barely not good enough, but it is interesting, say, combined with Sylvan Library (and Blue cards of course).

Feel like this does a solid Young Pyromancer impression in UGx Delver. BUG gets you Baleful Strix too. Or some greed pile with 4x Abundant Growth and Arcumn's Astrolabe

EDIT: holy crap they're 2/2s

[Barook]

What decks would run Idol? I don't see it slotting into any existing deck. For D&T and Maverick, it seems kinda slow and hard to grab enough creatures to make it worthwhile.

Nice synergy with Emry, though.

[Watersaw]

Yeah, since most UGx decks have the majority of their cards say, at least, "Draw a card" (or more), this seems like just straight gravy to add as a fun-of. Legendary could help a bit in that sense, since you can protect it with Karakas. Even if you only manage to Brainstorm in response to removal on her, I don't think that is terrible value, per se. We shall see though.

Fun-of? Nah man you run a bunch of these. Who cares if you can't play the second one when you get a free grizzly bear every turn and if the game drags out you have "4GG: your creatures are 4/4s." It and the tokens survive Plague Engineer too.

[H]

Feel like this does a solid Young Pyromancer impression in UGx Delver. BUG gets you Baleful Strix too. Or some greed pile with 4x Abundant Growth and Arcumn's Astrolabe

EDIT: holy crap they're 2/2s

I eagerly salute any and everything that makes Green the new Red, :cool:.

But yeah, 2/2's are strong. Come to think of it, in an "average" Snow deck, does Jolrael trigger off a high percent of spells than YP would in a Delver deck? Probably not, but I think it might be close.

(Well, "close" but I looked at two recent lists, Snow has 23 spells that would tigger this, Grixis has 29 spells. But, in Snow, Jace, Library and Uro can trigger it recursively, not once-off.)

[Tylert]

What decks would run Idol? I don't see it slotting into any existing deck. For D&T and Maverick, it seems kinda slow and hard to grab enough creatures to make it worthwhile.

Nice synergy with Emry, though.

Yeah, I like it for historic in the (curently) mono U artifact deck. Another durdly tool (EMry + sai + mystic forge + Stonecoil serpent + overseer + Other artifacts).
It brings back sai and Emry too, that's the interresting point.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah I can't remember the last time that "dies to removal" had any validity and it puzzles me to still see this argument show up to dismiss new cards.
Though you have missed out a con, and that is being a terrible topdeck. But you can probably try to remedy this by gearing your list with repeatable noncombat damage sources, like Grim Lavamancer.

Sulfuric Vortex seems fine, along with maybe not running a full set of Incinerator.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm not saying it's too weak, I'm saying it is antithetical to the classic game plan of Burn.
If anything, it's too strong.
If it were a 4/4 trample for 3R, that's a whole other discussion. Turn 2 powered out by any burn spell, sign me up.

This is a good argument.

[Barook]

Feel like this does a solid Young Pyromancer impression in UGx Delver. BUG gets you Baleful Strix too. Or some greed pile with 4x Abundant Growth and Arcumn's Astrolabe

EDIT: holy crap they're 2/2s
So either a Yorion pile - or just Astrolabe, Strix/Coatl, Uro and Cantrips, while throwing in 1-2 Libraries for shit and giggles.

Sounds quite playable to me.

[H]

So either a Yorion pile - or just Astrolabe, Strix/Coatl, Uro and Cantrips, while throwing in 1-2 Libraries for shit and giggles.

Sounds quite playable to me.

Yeah, I think the real trade with respect to YP is that you can trigger YP multiple times a turn, so YP is still more explosive. However, Jolrael is more incremental value, but limited to a trigger per player turn. Still, that can make 4 power per turn cycle with Library, at 0-Mana post 2-Mana investment in Library (that you were going to make anyway).

[Glass House]

Sulfuric Vortex seems fine, along with maybe not running a full set of Incinerator.

Unfortunately Vortex doesn't help reduce Incinerator's cost. It damages only you during your turn.

I agree with PirateKing that trying to accommodate the card into Burn runs contrary to the deck's philosophy - which is, in my understanding, running the most cost efficient cards that can go straight for the face and relying on this consistency to close out the game as quick as possible. This is why I think the card really shines only in a few matchups. Namely, matchups where the Satyr Firedancer ability would prove useful. So maybe it ends up finding a place in the sideboard rather than the mainboard.

[Barook]

Yeah, I think the real trade with respect to YP is that you can trigger YP multiple times a turn, so YP is still more explosive. However, Jolrael is more incremental value, but limited to a trigger per player turn. Still, that can make 4 power per turn cycle with Library, at 0-Mana post 2-Mana investment in Library (that you were going to make anyway).
Yes, YP is more explosive and better for going wide, but the cats don't die to Plague Engineer. Being able to trigger her with permanents is also nice. And you can still get more cats by casting Brainstorm or Snap/Brainstorm in your opponent's turn. For two mana and no furher investments, that's quite the steal.


Unfortunately Vortex doesn't help reduce Incinerator's cost. It damages only you during your turn.

I agree with PirateKing that trying to accommodate the card into Burn runs contrary to the deck's philosophy - which is, in my understanding, running the most cost efficient cards that can go straight for the face and relying on this consistency to close out the game as quick as possible. This is why I think the card really shines only in a few matchups. Namely, matchups where the Satyr Firedancer ability would prove useful. So maybe it ends up finding a place in the sideboard rather than the mainboard.
As for efficiency, let's do some math:

Seal + Incinerator:
T1: Seal
T2: Crack Seal, Bolt, Incinerator (5 damage)
T3: Bolt, Bolt, Bolt + Swing (15 Damage)
20 damage total

Rift Bolt + Incinerator:
T1: Suspend Rift Bolt
T2: Play Rift Bolt, Bolt, Incinerator (6 damage)
T3: Bolt, Bolt, Bolt + Swing (15 Damage)
21 damage total

Goblin Guide:
T1 Guide, Swing (2 Damage)
T2: Bolt, Bolt, Swing (8 damage)
T3: Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Swing (11 damage)
21 damage total

Swiftspear:
T1 Spear, Swing (1 Damage)
T2: Bolt, Bolt, Swing (9 damage)
T3: Bolt, Bolt, Bolt, Swing (13 damage)
23 damage total

All variants get the job done by T3. Inquistor is less consistent to play on T2, but also significantly more likely to survive and push damage through (both due to trample and clearing the way while burning face). It will also race ahead in terms of damage for every turn after that if the game goes any longer due to reasons.

In the end, you'll trade a certain amount of consistency for raw power. We'll see how this is going to play out once people start testing, but dismissing it now because it doesn't fit the philosophy of current Burn decks seems grossly negligent. Decks can be significantly altered if a card that is powerful enough shows up. This might be the case here.

[Glass House]

You are right, Barook, that it could spawn a list that differs in philosophy. Following the "maximize Incinerator" plan, I think that fast mana like Simian Spirit Guide and Lotus Petal might be worth looking into.
Imagine a T1 that goes Mountain, SSG/Petal, Seal of Fire and Rift Bolt. You start T2 with the 5 damage needed to cast Incinerator for R, and a second land drop, which could potentially mean dropping 2 Incinerators on T2. Sounds like a fine turn 2 to me :tongue:
Worth noting that cutting Mountains for SSG/Petal significantly weakens Fireblast, so that is probably the first card you'd look into cutting. Probably to make space for Seal of Fire.

[H]

Yes, YP is more explosive and better for going wide, but the cats don't die to Plague Engineer. Being able to trigger her with permanents is also nice. And you can still get more cats by casting Brainstorm or Snap/Brainstorm in your opponent's turn. For two mana and no furher investments, that's quite the steal.

Yep, I already pre-ordered some myself, :cool:.

Will go nicely with the Uros I just got in last week, haha. Also, you could always "upgrade" your 2/2's to 3/3 Elks, for the low, low price of Oko (real minor there).

Kermit might well get his redemption (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRZ-IxZ46ng) soon; it may well be the the foreseeable future is Green.

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/VXTB7Go.png?1

I don't think this quite cuts it, but it is interesting. I think you'd want this' abilities, but 3 mana might just be too much to have it really see play.

[Barook]

You are right, Barook, that it could spawn a list that differs in philosophy. Following the "maximize Incinerator" plan, I think that fast mana like Simian Spirit Guide and Lotus Petal might be worth looking into.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not - this sounds horrible. Also, how are those accelerators better than Gutshot when it comes down to casting Incinerator? Either would generate 1 mana for Incinerator.

I can see Seal of Fire being run alongside Rift Bolt as a concession to Incinerator. But everything else that isn't damage is most likely a bad idea.

[Mr. Safety]

Unfortunately Vortex doesn't help reduce Incinerator's cost. It damages only you during your turn.

I agree with PirateKing that trying to accommodate the card into Burn runs contrary to the deck's philosophy - which is, in my understanding, running the most cost efficient cards that can go straight for the face and relying on this consistency to close out the game as quick as possible. This is why I think the card really shines only in a few matchups. Namely, matchups where the Satyr Firedancer ability would prove useful. So maybe it ends up finding a place in the sideboard rather than the mainboard.

Good catch, I totally missed that. I was just looking for 'free' damage to enable it. I still think it will become a staple card, just not a 4-of.

[Mr. Safety]

https://i.imgur.com/VXTB7Go.png?1

I don't think this quite cuts it, but it is interesting. I think you'd want this' abilities, but 3 mana might just be too much to have it really see play.

I think this card is very close to Modern playable, just not quite legacy playable. I would definitely want to try some sort of Unearth engine to go with this. Now is the time to reprint Careful Study! Modern could afford to wait until turn 4 to pull off this kind of combo.

[H]

Good catch, I totally missed that. I was just looking for 'free' damage to enable it. I still think it will become a staple card, just not a 4-of.

Well, I think the real reason you still want 4x Vortex in the 75 is because of Uro/Oko because either one sticking almost assuredly loses you the game on the spot.

[Mr. Safety]

Well, I think the real reason you still want 4x Vortex in the 75 is because of Uro/Oko because either one sticking almost assuredly loses you the game on the spot.

Definitely. Vortex will always be quite good in the mid-range and control matchups.

[Glass House]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not - this sounds horrible. Also, how are those accelerators better than Gutshot when it comes down to casting Incinerator? Either would generate 1 mana for Incinerator.

I can see Seal of Fire being run alongside Rift Bolt as a concession to Incinerator. But everything else that isn't damage is most likely a bad idea.

No I am not being sarcastic. My idea is not to cut any damage dealing spells, but a few lands and replace them with fast mana, so you can setup a T2 Incinerator. Maybe this wasn't made clear.

[Fox]

Obsessive Stitcher in modern is slower than JVP which does this same trick with Goryo's (which also grants redundancy/resilience).

[Tobitzki]

on Incinerator: agree with @Barook and @Mr. Safety here. It's a little disappointing to see experienced players outright dismiss cards if they don't neatly slot into established 75. There were prominent podcasters who couldn't fathom Lurrrus in Delver because "TNN, Plague Engineer, Brazen Borrower" and they obviously didn't think of Baubles.

Barook's math is helpful. To me the most obvious cut is Swifty, to be replaced by Seals: Another T1 play and actually a better late topdeck than Swifty. I would also add 2-4 Skewer the Critics: more Bolts to help cast Incinerator and offset its inbuilt variance. I'm less certain about Light Up the Stage. Meta-dependent 3cmc stuff like Vortex and Firecraft, maybe even PoP, to the side. This would actually streamline the deck overall.

Lotus Petals are a no go, but Simian Spirit Guide seems... wacky but kinda interesting? At least not a dead topdeck. I'd probably rather try Lavamancer or Barbarian Ring, tho.

[Barook]

on Incinerator: agree with @Barook and @Mr. Safety here. It's a little disappointing to see experienced players outright dismiss cards if they don't neatly slot into established 75. There were prominent podcasters who couldn't fathom Lurrrus in Delver because "TNN, Plague Engineer, Brazen Borrower" and they obviously didn't think of Baubles.

Barook's math is helpful. To me the most obvious cut is Swifty, to be replaced by Seals: Another T1 play and actually a better late topdeck than Swifty. I would also add 2-4 Skewer the Critics: more Bolts to help cast Incinerator and offset its inbuilt variance. I'm less certain about Light Up the Stage. Meta-dependent 3cmc stuff like Vortex and Firecraft, maybe even PoP, to the side. This would actually streamline the deck overall.

Lotus Petals are a no go, but Simian Spirit Guide seems... wacky but kinda interesting? At least not a dead topdeck. I'd probably rather try Lavamancer or Barbarian Ring, tho.
Not sure if Skewer is all that helpful casting Incinerator if it requires setup itself. Great with Seal of Fire, but other than that, questionable.

[Tobitzki]

Great with Seal of Fire, but other than that, questionable.

But that's the whole point. It's also pretty good with our other 16 Bolts, Lavamancer and Fireblast. And, like Seal, it's also a better late-game topdeck than Swiftspear.

[FTW]

Pros
1 - It outclasses Gurmag Angler
2 - most of the time it will outclass Tarmogoyf
3 - it has trample, so it outclasses True Name Nemesis
4 - it's a fucking 6/6 that can't be hit by Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push, or Lightning Bolt
5 - if it's Elk-ed it's still a 3/3 for R, which is still a Wild Nacatl.
6 - It also allows your Lava Spike and Chain Lightning to act as removal spells, while still dealing 3 damage.


Burn.dec doesn't want Gurmag Angler, Tarmogoyf, True-Name Nemesis or Wild Nacatl on turn 3 or later. It just wants more burn.

On turn 3 Burn doesn't need to durdle with a creature that can't turn sideways until turn 4. It just wants to deal the last few damage. On turn 4 (after casting this), Burn doesn't need to double burn onto creatures. It just wants to deal the last few damage. This is also a terrible topdeck.

Barook's math for turn 2 looks good, but now you're in A+B combo territory. You need to draw a specific combo of cards, without cantrips, and cast them in sequence. That's very high variance. Without those perfect hands, realistically this is a T3 card, which is a bit too slow. Regular Burn is less explosive but lower variance.

In comparison you could use that 1 mana to cast Light Up the Stage into 1-2 more burn spells.

This card looks a lot stronger in Dragon Stompy with Chandra. You can easily curve Chandra into 4-mana 6/6 trample, then Chandra gets to tick up while shocking creatures.

[Fox]

Burn has had years to play Incinerator by another name: Thing in the Ice. They could play it with Volc, they could play it with Shockland, they could even play it with 1x Island off Tarn/Vista playsets. Both TITI and Incinerator require loss of turn 1 play (you’re cutting 1-drop dudes), both are bad without spells left in hand, and both are about equally reliable at pushing dmg through *if* you untap with them (bounce or trample). You can’t afford to take first turns off with a deck like Burn though, all to follow this weird tempo path that gives opponents more time and easier lines back into the game.

Rift Bolt is a little able to offset loss of turn 1 dude with Incinerator (vs TITI), but you have to pony up another burn spell (this one is getting countered)...and uh ya...a card in your hand gets blown up (Incinerator) since you can’t cast it. Then you get to wait a turn to try and pseudo 3-for-1 yourself again. Remember, you don’t get to use that leftover mana on turn 2 b/c you need burn card in hand for this turn 3 attempt, so your opponent is at ~17 going into your turn 3.
—
@FTW incremental lifepoint damage isn’t really how Moon Stompy wins, so much as cheese’ing 1-card combos under the cover of lock piece spam. They can only sustain so many cards they can’t cast in opening hands. If you’re getting to the point of “once I have Chandra in play” the only payoff card you’re casting is 6cmc uncounterable Chandra or Karn. Their deck also plays Bridge.

Vial Smasher decks already play the miracle deal 5, and revealing this Incinerator domes for 6 and cuts it’s own cost down to R. It’s a power upgrade to Gurmag.

[Tobitzki]

Burn has had years to play Incinerator by another name: Thing in the Ice.

As concise as possible:
2mana off-color do-nothing for God knows how many turns (TITI) =/= 1redmana 6/6 trample + relevant text.

Burning face =/= "taking turns off"
Burning face =/= "pseudo 3-for-1 yourself"

You're also not cutting 1drops; if anything the curve gets leaner:
(OUT: 4 Swifty + 6-7 PoP/Firecraft/Vortex/land; in: 4 Incinerator + 4 Seals + 2-3 Skewer the Critics)
Counting Seals, that's 22-3 Bolts.

Sure, it gets countered. Investment: 1 mana. The only other 1mana spell eating Forces in Burn is T1 otp Goblin Guide. And this is more of a must-counter than both GG & Eidolon, which can also be Bolted, Decayed, or Pushed. Sure it gets Elked; that's a functional R: 3/3 that prevents a Food. That's still better than any post-T1 Swiftspear.

A legitimate question to me is, does it go main or side, since PoP/Firecraft/Vortex certainly remain in the 75.

[Mr. Safety]

As concise as possible:
2mana off-color do-nothing for God knows how many turns (TITI) =/= 1redmana 6/6 trample + relevant text.

Burning face =/= "taking turns off"
Burning face =/= "pseudo 3-for-1 yourself"

You're also not cutting 1drops; if anything the curve gets leaner:
(OUT: 4 Swifty + 6-7 PoP/Firecraft/Vortex/land; in: 4 Incinerator + 4 Seals + 2-3 Skewer the Critics)
Counting Seals, that's 22-3 Bolts.

Sure, it gets countered. Investment: 1 mana. The only other 1mana spell eating Forces in Burn is T1 otp Goblin Guide. And this is more of a must-counter than both GG & Eidolon, which can also be Bolted, Decayed, or Pushed. Sure it gets Elked; that's a functional R: 3/3 that prevents a Food. That's still better than any post-T1 Swiftspear.

A legitimate question to me is, does it go main or side, since PoP/Firecraft/Vortex certainly remain in the 75.

I like your post, and I think it sums up what I was thinking. I think it goes in the maindeck over Price of Progress, mostly because in general the format is using a lot more basic lands. In some matchups PoP will be the 6+ damage you want, others it will be 2-4 damage, below rate of what you want.

[Mr. Safety]

Rift Bolt is a little able to offset loss of turn 1 dude with Incinerator (vs TITI), but you have to pony up another burn spell (this one is getting countered)...and uh ya...a card in your hand gets blown up (Incinerator) since you can’t cast it. Then you get to wait a turn to try and pseudo 3-for-1 yourself again. Remember, you don’t get to use that leftover mana on turn 2 b/c you need burn card in hand for this turn 3 attempt, so your opponent is at ~17 going into your turn 3.

'Pony up another burn spell'...you're joking right? You're saying it would be difficult to have more than one burn spell in your opening hand?
If I were a burn player and someone Force of Will/Daze's my turn 2 burn spell, I would probably do a fist pump. Any time you can goad your opponent into playing their cards out of sequence you are controlling the tempo of the game in a way you can convert into a win. Their early counters really need to hit repeatable sources of damage (GG, Swiftspear, Eidolon), otherwise it's a losing proposition.

Burn may be hyper-linear, but that doesn't mean it has to be one-dimensional. The benefit to playing a 'slow combo deck' like burn is that it there aren't a lot of hoops to jump through to set up. You don't need cantrips to sculpt a hand, you just need Mountains. You can overload your opponent's resources by dictating the timing of their plays. The games that burn wins the easiest are games where t1-2 creatures do the bulk of the heavy lifting, allowing every top-decked burn spell to just go to the face. If instead you have Lava Spike/Rift Bolt/Chain lightning in your opening hand, it opens up your t2-3 Incinerator to be a must-counter spell. This opens the door for other threats or allows you to clear a counter so your Fireblast resolves.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

I didn't even take into account how it effectively turns counter magic into a two-for-one when this gets stranded in your hand.

Edit: You want to talk scenarios here we go:
T1 Land, Delayed Bolt (Seal, Riftbolt) 5 cards in hand, 0 total damage
T2 Cash-in Delayed Bolt, Land, cast second bolt (gets countered)
T2A: Cast third bolt. 4 Cards in hand, 9 total Damage
T2B: Hold on to your bolt to set up T3 Incenerator, 5 Cards in hand. 6 total damage
T3A: Land, Cast Bolt, 4 damage 2 Mana spell. 3 Cards remaining in hand. 16 Damage. Any bolt is now lethal if your opponent fetched once. Or a Fireblast
T3B: Land, Cast Bolt, If you have a 5th bolt here you can try and squeeze in the Incenerator, but now you're like 6 damage behind and hopping your opponent doesn't untap into Oko or Uro.

This doesn't even take into account T2B where the counter is daze, where even if your bolt isn't countered you still can't afford the incinerator.
The card is the definition of a win more: When you're ahead casting your spells it's doing work, and when you're behind it's sitting in your hand asking you to wait on casting burn spells because your 19 land deck can't ever afford to pay 6.

[FTW]

Burn may be hyper-linear, but that doesn't mean it has to be one-dimensional. The benefit to playing a 'slow combo deck' like burn is that it there aren't a lot of hoops to jump through to set up. You don't need cantrips to sculpt a hand, you just need Mountains. You can overload your opponent's resources by dictating the timing of their plays.

That's the advantage of Burn.dec (the current build).

Incinerator takes that away. It creates hoops to jump through.

You veer towards A+B combo territory by needing plays like T1 Rift Bolt into T2 Incinerator. You have to sequence in a narrower way, which helps opponent disrupt you. It undoes the good things about Burn just for high variance explosiveness.

What if you have Incinerator without Rift Bolt or Seal? Awkward. Turn 3 at the earliest.

What if you have multiple Seals and no Incinerator? You're just less efficient at burning.

What if you have multiple Seals and Incinerator but no Bolts? You can't T2 it, and you have bad burn spells.

What if you have the combo (Incinerator, Rift Bolt, Bolt) but one gets countered? You lose tempo and Incinerator becomes a blank, 2-for-1'd.

What if you have the combo and Goblin Guide/Swiftspear? Awkward, you're forced to sequence GG T3 or later and give up easy damage.

The Magical Xmas Land scenario is great, but what about all those other games where it takes away Burn's best strength.

[H]

Too bad Recruiter is still banned:
https://i.imgur.com/DVe95yn.png

[PirateKing]

The trap I see is the mathematical proofs supporting the card illustrate the extremely narrow window to deploy this card.
As others have said, powered out turn 2, your on par with exiting Burn. Not better, on par.
Turn 3 using normal spells, game takes a little longer, but a 6/6 trample should beat up anything and squeeze out the last damage, so no big.
Getting into turn 4 and beyond, you're into the place when most burn is in top deck mode. Which is fine, because they're usually at 3 so any bolt drawn is must-counter.
So the notion that this is a good late game draw is unrealistic. Late game it will cost 6, sometimes 3, but probably 6. Aka: unplayable.
And that's the trick. Burn is good because it has no dead cards. Everything does the same thing, so it doesn't matter what order you draw the cards in. The Rift Bolt you drew on turn 3+ has the same potency as the one in your opening hand.

Incinerator is unsecured risk. At best you're not doing anything burn wasn't doing already. If your ceiling is zero and your floor is anything less than zero, that should tell you all you need to know.

I'm not trying to come down hard on the card, it could have a place in something. If you had a constant enchantment output of damage every turn so any stage of the game it's cheaper, Honden of Infinite Rage or something, then this is a good fit. Two shines plus a bolt gets him out and then every turn after the shines do double duty; spectacular.

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/KaNB1d5.png

An Accumulated Knowledge that isn't as awkward in the mirror.

[ColeM]

Who cares about burn.


Conspicuous Snoop would be pretty sweet with Goblin Recruiter though. Basically the Skill borrower combo except Recruiter grabs all the combo pieces by himself.
Recruiter into Snoop + Kiki + Mogg Fanatic. Extremely compact and fairly mana efficient. If Snoop has haste he wins the turn he comes into play. Definitely trying this in commander.

[Fox]

As concise as possible:
2mana off-color do-nothing for God knows how many turns (TITI) =/= 1redmana 6/6 trample + relevant text.

Burning face =/= "taking turns off"
Burning face =/= "pseudo 3-for-1 yourself"

You're also not cutting 1drops; if anything the curve gets leaner:
(OUT: 4 Swifty + 6-7 PoP/Firecraft/Vortex/land; in: 4 Incinerator + 4 Seals + 2-3 Skewer the Critics)
Counting Seals, that's 22-3 Bolts.

Sure, it gets countered. Investment: 1 mana. The only other 1mana spell eating Forces in Burn is T1 otp Goblin Guide. And this is more of a must-counter than both GG & Eidolon, which can also be Bolted, Decayed, or Pushed. Sure it gets Elked; that's a functional R: 3/3 that prevents a Food. That's still better than any post-T1 Swiftspear.

A legitimate question to me is, does it go main or side, since PoP/Firecraft/Vortex certainly remain in the 75.

So you lose 4x 1-drops, which were specified as dudes. So you lost Swiftspear, so you lost turn 1 plays. You are offsetting this by saying Rift Bolt is gonna be your replacement turn 1 play.

Now guess what every opponent is going to do on your turn 2... let Rift Bolt resolve, and then counter your second burn effect that costs 1 of your 2 mana. Guess what card you're not casting - Incinerator. Guess who doesn't get to use their second mana on turn 2 - you....because you need to hold 2 burn spells (and also have land #3).

Stop assuming Incinerator can just be cast. This card isn't even going to threaten a trip to the stack early against a halfway decent oppo with a piece of interaction. The thing about spells you can't cast is that people don't need to counter them.

[Barook]

Who cares about burn.


Conspicuous Snoop would be pretty sweet with Goblin Recruiter though. Basically the Skill borrower combo except Recruiter grabs all the combo pieces by himself.
Recruiter into Snoop + Kiki + Mogg Fanatic. Extremely compact and fairly mana efficient. If Snoop has haste he wins the turn he comes into play. Definitely trying this in commander.
Actually, somebody figured out a T3 kill by replacing Recruiter with Boogart Harbinger:

https://twitter.com/MTGOsalseo/status/1270709723747082240

Edit: Look, red Polymorph:

http://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/transmogrify.jpg

[FTW]

Edit: Too slow. Missed that Snoop lets you make Kiki copy itself to go infinite. Much simpler.


Too bad Recruiter is still banned:
https://i.imgur.com/DVe95yn.png

Goblins Commander just got hilarious

Goblin Recruiter becomes a 1-card combo.

[Edit: You only need to stack Conspicuous Snoop -> Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker to make infinite tapped tokens for RR.
Then copy Recruiter to find Sling-Gang Lieutenant/Mogg Fanatic (win-con) or Skirk Prospector (infinite mana) into other plays]


Stacking the following cards:

Conspicuous Snoop
Skirk Prospector
Goblin Warchief
Mogg War Marshal
Wily Goblin
Frogtosser Banneret
Pashalik Mons
Goblin Instigator
Beetleback Chief
Siege-Gang Commander
Goblin Marshal
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Lightning Crafter
//already enough to win

Goblin Trashmaster
Goblin Sharpshooter
Goblin Chieftain
Reckless Bushwhacker
Goblin Bushwhacker
Goblin Piledriver
Legion Loyalist


Needs 1RRRRR to go off next turn (or Goblins in play to convert to mana).

Draw & cast Snoop for RR. (1RRR left)
Prospector for R -> Sac Recruiter for R (1RRR left)
Warchief for 1RR. (R left)
War Marshal for R -> sac for RRR (RRR floating)
Wily Goblin for RR -> sac for RB (RRB floating)
Frogtosser for B (RR floating)
Pashalik Mons for R (R floating)
Goblin Instigator for R -> sac for RR (RR floating, +2 dmg)
Beetleback Chief for RR -> sac for RRR (RRR floating, +3 dmg)
Siege-Gang Commander for RRR -> sac for RRRR (RRRR floating, +4 dmg)
Goblin Marshal for RRRR -> sac for for RRRRR (RRRRR floating, +5 dmg)
Kiki-Jiki for RRR (RR floating)
Lightning Crafter for RR -> Champion something (Warchief or Frogtosser probably)
Kiki + Crafter + Prospector for infinite pings & infinite red mana

You can follow that up with infinite tokens from Pashalik Mons, Trashmaster to blow up artifacts, and grow them into a big attack.

[jmlima]

...

Edit: Look, red Polymorph:

http://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/transmogrify.jpg

Is it my impression or is this actually better than polymorph since it exiles which means it can be used with indestructible creatures and also with creatures that can be cast from exile?

Anyway, never understood WotC's concept of colour pie. It seems to be used to justify some things and then willingly ignored when convenient.

[Barook]

Is it my impression or is this actually better than polymorph since it exiles which means it can be used with indestructible creatures and also with creatures that can be cast from exile?

Anyway, never understood WotC's concept of colour pie. It seems to be used to justify some things and they willingly ignored when convenient.
The color pie is a joke - just look at the color blue.

They make up shit on the fly if it's convenient for them. E.g. turning suddenly turning black from a color with aggressive creatures to one with general higher toughness than power. :eyebrow:

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/UzZfJsW.png

Sometimes Furnace of Rath just isn't enough? :laugh:

https://i.imgur.com/K0KZ2RY.png

I don't think this really cuts it, but it is an interesting use of Prowess.

[(nameless one)]

Would the Snoopy Goblin would even be good in the context of Legacy Goblins alone? It’s card advantage, not that they need it.

Maybe it’s what they need in Modern or Pioneer to be good? (I still think those format needs a Goblin Lackey)

[H]

Would the Snoopy Goblin would even be good in the context of Legacy Goblins alone? It’s card advantage, not that they need it.

Maybe it’s what they need in Modern or Pioneer to be good? (I still think those format needs a Goblin Lackey)

I don't know that it is necessarily that good, but consider the following line:

https://i.imgur.com/o0OmkSN.png

That isn't terrible or unreasonable. But it does mean your deck is a bit more combo, but besides Harbinger, they can just be 1-ofs.

[FTW]

I don't know that it is necessarily that good, but consider the following line:

https://i.imgur.com/o0OmkSN.png

That isn't terrible or unreasonable. But it does mean your deck is a bit more combo, but besides Harbinger, they can just be 1-ofs.

In Legacy it leads to a very different Vial Goblins build. But you can boost the consistency with:
4x Snoop
4x Harbinger
4x Matron
4x Ringleader

Then you just need 1x Kiki and 1x Mogg Fanatic, which many Goblin decks run anyway, and you can run a mix of other toolbox targets.

Kiki and all those tutors fit better into a WInstigator build, with Chrome Mox. Mox also means you can T1 Snoop -> T2 Harbinger into T2 win.

Edit:

//Artifacts: 7
3 Chrome Mox
4 Aether Vial

//Goblins: 33
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Mogg Fanatic
4 Warren Instigator
4 Conspicuous Snoop
3 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Boggart Harbinger
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

//Lands: 20
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Badlands


Toolbox SB is also well-supported (Goblin Chainwhirler, Earwig Squad, Warren Weirding).

[Cire]

it would be a 3 card combo, but you could go even cheaper with Wordily tutor

Turn 1 - Land + Sac Outlet
Turn 2 - Land + Accel + Snoop + Sylvan/Wordly Tutor -> Win.

The bonus is that you would have lots of redundancy - the tutors allow you to search out your combo and are part of the combo. . .

[FTW]

it would be a 3 card combo, but you could go even cheaper with Wordily tutor

Turn 1 - Land + Sac Outlet
Turn 2 - Land + Accel + Snoop + Sylvan/Wordly Tutor -> Win.

The bonus is that you would have lots of redundancy - the tutors allow you to search out your combo and are part of the combo. . .

Snoop doesn't copy Kiki's haste, so summoning sickness delays you until turn 3 anyway.

At that point accel + Snoop + other card already leads with a turn 2 win with Harbinger, while Harbinger and other goblin cards at least have synergy with the deck when you don't have the combo hand.

[Cire]

Snoop doesn't copy Kiki's haste, so summoning sickness delays you until turn 3 anyway.

At that point accel + Snoop + other card already leads with a turn 2 win with Harbinger, while Harbinger and other goblin cards at least have synergy with the deck when you don't have the combo hand.

Fair enough!

[mistercakes]

In Legacy it leads to a very different Vial Goblins build. But you can boost the consistency with:
4x Snoop
4x Harbinger
4x Matron
4x Ringleader

Then you just need 1x Kiki and 1x Mogg Fanatic, which many Goblin decks run anyway, and you can run a mix of other toolbox targets.

Kiki and all those tutors fit better into a WInstigator build, with Chrome Mox. Mox also means you can T1 Snoop -> T2 Harbinger into T2 win.

Edit:

//Artifacts: 7
3 Chrome Mox
4 Aether Vial

//Goblins: 33
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Mogg Fanatic
4 Warren Instigator
4 Conspicuous Snoop
3 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Boggart Harbinger
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Sling-Gang Lieutenant
1 Goblin Trashmaster
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

//Lands: 20
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
5 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Badlands


Toolbox SB is also well-supported (Goblin Chainwhirler, Earwig Squad, Warren Weirding).

Can't you turn 1 lackey into a goblin warchief? Play prospector, pay red and sac lackey for second red. Cast this guy. Roll the dice and see if Kiki is on top :)

If you have infinite mana you can play a recruiter, draw the Kiki, copy the recruiter...

[Cire]

Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose {2}{B}
Legendary Creature — Vampire Cleric
Whenever you gain life, target opponent loses that much life.
{3}{B}{B}: Creatures you control gain lifelink until end of turn.
1/3

This is the cheapest - the sanguine bond effect has been?

[Fox]

Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose {2}{B}
Legendary Creature — Vampire Cleric
Whenever you gain life, target opponent loses that much life.
{3}{B}{B}: Creatures you control gain lifelink until end of turn.
1/3

This is the cheapest - the sanguine bond effect has been?

Getting close to playable with Dreadnought and Diamond Valley-type lands (black Search for whatever card). Not quite there yet, but a definite improvement to Defiant Bloodlord.

[Barook]

Getting close to playable with Dreadnought and Diamond Valley-type lands (black Search for whatever card). Not quite there yet, but a definite improvement to Defiant Bloodlord.
As mentioned before, it's probably also hitting pretty hard with Martyr of Sands.

[morgan_coke]

As mentioned before, it's probably also hitting pretty hard with Martyr of Sands.

Wasn't there a Black/White Clerics Life.dec a while ago that was great at the combo but bad at winning? This is a cleric, so....

[Tobitzki]

re: Chandra's Incinerator in Burn


So you lost Swiftspear, so you lost turn 1 plays. You are offsetting this by saying Rift Bolt is gonna be your replacement turn 1 play.

Now guess what every opponent is going to do on your turn 2... let Rift Bolt resolve, and then counter your second burn effect that costs 1 of your 2 mana. Guess what card you're not casting - Incinerator. Guess who doesn't get to use their second mana on turn 2 - you....because you need to hold 2 burn spells (and also have land #3).

Seal is the replacement (please read what I'm saying); along with some number of Lavamancers, possibly. With T1 Seal none of your T2 counter scenarios apply.

And even with Rift Bolt: There is no world in which countering a T2 Lava Spike on the off-chance that your opp might be holding Incinerator is a good idea; not to mention playing Daze into an open mana.

Someone else mentioned the need for non-combat repeat sources of damage on your turn to help cast Incinerator. That makes sense to me. Splash green for Klothys perhaps?

So far none of the misgivings raised in this thread--some more reasonable than others--really convince me that it's not at least worth testing CI.

EDIT: But yes, the difficulty to play around Daze is a major weakness of Incinerator; perhaps enough to leave/board them out vs. Delver.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/soubiratulzidicaravaneer.jpg

Subira, Tulzidi Caravaneer 2R
Legendary Creature - Human Shaman
Haste
1: Another target creature with power 2 or less can't be blocked this turn.
1R, T, discard your hand: Until end of turn, whenever a creature you control with power 2 or less deals combat damage to a player, draw a card.
2/3

It has the Stompy casting cost and would work well with Rabblemaster (and the other goblin that produces tokens). But is it too much win-more?

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/uNG1aGW.png

Reverse Threshold? Hmm, this might be OK, hard to say.

https://i.imgur.com/AX6kihR.png

Haha, hate Delver much? But yeah, pro-Blue is a joke in-itself.

[ronco]

https://i.imgur.com/uNG1aGW.png

Reverse Threshold? Hmm, this might be OK, hard to say.

https://i.imgur.com/AX6kihR.png

Haha, hate Delver much? But yeah, pro-Blue is a joke in-itself.I always thought skylasher was the best deliver hater!

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

[Cire]

Garruk's Herald 1GG
Creature - Beast
Hexproof from black
Whenever Garruk's Herald deals combat damage to a player or planeswalker, look at that same number of cards from the top of your library. You may reveal a creature or Garruk planeswalker card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in a random order.
4/3

Decent draw on a good body with some protection. Coming out turn 2 off a mana dork it can provide good CA.

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/9gRmigu.png

Does Hardened Scales get better on a body? Or, is it good to have up to 8x of the effect?

[Mr. Safety]

https://i.imgur.com/uNG1aGW.png

Reverse Threshold? Hmm, this might be OK, hard to say.

https://i.imgur.com/AX6kihR.png

Haha, hate Delver much? But yeah, pro-Blue is a joke in-itself.
It's not pro-blue, its hexproof from blue. Blue creatures can still deal combat damage to it and block it. Minor difference, just clarifying.

[H]

It's not pro-blue, its hexproof from blue. Blue creatures can still deal combat damage to it and block it. Minor difference, just clarifying.

Oh, ha. Well, that is actually better in a sense. I mean, it is still mostly a joke, but does protect from Jace and Oko.

https://i.imgur.com/u3OPQQS.png

This can sometimes be situationally better than Flusterstorm, but overall not likely to see much play.

[ReAnimator]

https://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/stormwingentity.jpg

This feels close but not quite there. If probe were still in the format it might be good enough.

[Meekrab]

Nothing to say about the cards' power because predictions are almost universally wrong, but wow there's a lot of really great art in this set so far. Though I am slightly offended Rin and Seri isn't "Cat Dog" because alphabetical...

[alphastryk]

Oh, ha. Well, that is actually better in a sense. I mean, it is still mostly a joke, but does protect from Jace and Oko.

https://i.imgur.com/u3OPQQS.png

This can sometimes be situationally better than Flusterstorm, but overall not likely to see much play.

In a practical sense, I think flusterstorm being hard to interact with is almost always going to be more valuable

[ESG]

re: Chandra's Incinerator in Burn

I've been testing it, and I'm not impressed. I started with four copies and substituted Swiftspears for Seal of Fire with the idea that Seals would enable it. Over a dozen games in, I have yet to cast it on Turn 2, and I can say it's quite bad to draw after Turn 4. I don't think the card is bad, but so far it has been less serviceable than Swiftspear. It's also just high variance, which isn't what I would want out of Burn. I think one of Burn's best assets is consistency.

[Mr. Safety]

I felt the same way about Black Vise when I tested it post-unban. It looks strong but ends up being a trap. I really thought this Incinerator card would be better, but your reasoning makes perfect sense.

[jmlima]

I felt the same way about Black Vise when I tested it post-unban. It looks strong but ends up being a trap. ...

Adm Ackbar warned us all about that.

[Barook]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EaTqlfuWoAABOkp?format=jpg&name=360x360

Stuffy Doll that can be put into play via Lackey/Instigator and can fight other creatures. Not sure if there are any applications for this (especially in Oko Land), but maybe somebody has a tech at hand.

http://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/felinesovereignp.jpg

Stompy mana cost. Aside from that, it curves well into Pridemage, allowing it to attack as a 4/4 on T3, and boosts Brimaz quite a bit. Probably not good enough for Legacy, but a repeatable Naturalize is at least worth a look (although the lack of evasion probably kills it for Eternal formats). Might be cool for Vintage, though, where it can eat Power and Oaths.

[bruizar]

I would play (read: consider or test) Chandra's Incinerator in delver alongside Fireblast. You have Dreadhorde Arcanist to turn 1 bolt/chain into 5 mana, and you can use fireblast to reduce Chandra's Incinerator to 2 mana potentially with counter backup.

[Fox]

Delver has nowhere near enough noncombat dmg to do that. Also not the best idea to turn up burn plan while Uro/Oko are running the format.

[Mr. Safety]

Adm Ackbar warned us all about that.

https://pics.onsizzle.com/Facebook-Admiral-Ackbar-Ozmin-529b0e.png

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/TeDlKDX.png

Night of Souls' Betrayal is the obvious parallel. But here you get both positive and negative Karakas interactions along with a 3/2 body.

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/cNPwp6m.png

Hmm, decent stats to cost ratio, costing 2 is decent and the activated ability is decent at mitigating the effect of running multiple of these, or Thalias. But still only really for use in Humans or something, maybe.

[Barook]

https://i.imgur.com/cNPwp6m.png

Hmm, decent stats to cost ratio, costing 2 is decent and the activated ability is decent at mitigating the effect of running multiple of these, or Thalias. But still only really for use in Humans or something, maybe.
I can see it in Esper Vial - can save creatures and/or generate more CA with their ETB abilities. Life gain as a side effect is always welcome.

If you want to be fancy, you could throw a Squee into a deck with her since he's legendary and comes back every turn to create a draw engine. Not necessarily Esper Vial, but a deck with Entomb, Snapcaster, Unearth and her.

[H]

I can see it in Esper Vial - can save creatures and/or generate more CA with their ETB abilities. Life gain as a side effect is always welcome.

If you want to be fancy, you could throw a Squee into a deck with her since he's legendary and comes back every turn to create a draw engine. Not necessarily Esper Vial, but a deck with Entomb, Snapcaster, Unearth and her.

Indeed, this is more comparable to Charming Prince in Esper Vial I think. But the up and downsides are totally different. It is hard to say exactly, which is then necessarily better than the other.

[Barook]

Indeed, this is more comparable to Charming Prince in Esper Vial I think. But the up and downsides are totally different. It is hard to say exactly, which is then necessarily better than the other.
Why not run a split between both? They can be both fetched with Recruiter.

[Fox]

Now that they’ve printed Kaervek, they can unprint Plague Engineer :tongue:

[H]

Why not run a split between both? They can be both fetched with Recruiter.

That might be ideal, Jeff's more recent lists tend to run 2 Princes, so that could "easily" become one and one Naimbi. Naimbi plays much nicer with Venser, for example. It plays less nicely with Flickerwisp though, on the other side, or with Strix.

Hard to say and I'd defer to Jeff to really see where he takes it.

[Mr. Safety]

https://i.imgur.com/cNPwp6m.png

Hmm, decent stats to cost ratio, costing 2 is decent and the activated ability is decent at mitigating the effect of running multiple of these, or Thalias. But still only really for use in Humans or something, maybe.

It may not make it playable, but there is serious synergy with Mox Amber.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/discontinuity.jpg

Interesting design

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

http://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/discontinuity.jpg

Interesting design

It's nifty, but clunky. They can't do it the other way around because of stuff like isochron scepter

[Mr. Safety]

http://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/discontinuity.jpg

Interesting design


https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th/id/OIP.pOJLOnWAC0y6zuOceA_K2wAAAA?w=157&h=219&c=7&o=5&pid=1.7

Early game utility with Dreadnought, late game combo-killer.

[H]

Interesting design

Indeed, but I am at a bit of a loss as to what should really be done with the card...

https://i.imgur.com/usVa8mM.png

That sure is a nice set of abilities. But at 5 mana, it is probably just a bit too much.

[Fox]

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th/id/OIP.pOJLOnWAC0y6zuOceA_K2wAAAA?w=157&h=219&c=7&o=5&pid=1.7

Early game utility with Dreadnought, late game combo-killer.

Don’t forget that opponent also loses the spell they’re cracking Standstill with (and -1 card to discard).

[Mr. Safety]

Indeed, but I am at a bit of a loss as to what should really be done with the card...

https://i.imgur.com/usVa8mM.png

That sure is a nice set of abilities. But at 5 mana, it is probably just a bit too much.

That card has Modern Jund written all over it. They have already gotten away from using Dark Confidant and this is just so massive in that kind of mid-range value deck.

[Mr. Safety]

Don’t forget that opponent also loses the spell they’re cracking Standstill with (and -1 card to discard).

Good catch! I don't think this makes mono-blue more playable but it's a cool idea. The 3UUU cost would be really hard to scrounge up outside of mono-blue.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Norrin the Wary found it's second Impact Tremmors

[Barook]

Indeed, but I am at a bit of a loss as to what should really be done with the card...

https://i.imgur.com/usVa8mM.png

That sure is a nice set of abilities. But at 5 mana, it is probably just a bit too much.
Dragonstorm? With 3 copies total, you could go:

#1: Terror
#2: Terror, trigger the first one for 5 damage
#3: Bogardan Hellkite (deal 5), 2x 5 damage triggers (=15 damage)

[Fox]

At 3RR I think it’s better to have haste and protection from StP; not that this dragon is all that playable either.

[H]

https://i.imgur.com/kmEiE8l.png

Not an amazing rate and really unfortunate that it can't be a Beast. Still somewhat interesting just for being a land with that ability though.

[FTW]

https://i.imgur.com/kmEiE8l.png

Not an amazing rate and really unfortunate that it can't be a Beast. Still somewhat interesting just for being a land with that ability though.

If only it said "Each", it would be insane with Birds:
Squadron Hawk
Welkin Hawk
Pride of the Clouds

Otherwise tapping 3 lands to add one counter is on par with the completely unplayable Dragon Blood, and being a land doesn't help that much. Great card in Limited though.

[FTW]

Don’t forget that opponent also loses the spell they’re cracking Standstill with (and -1 card to discard).

Unless they crack Standstill on your turn, it would cost 3UUU to disrupt them. Same with discard. Is Landstill slow enough that it wants a 3UUU effect? (at that point you could hardcast either Force)

For Dreadstill/Dreadnought, it will probably function as a counterable Trickbind, and even Trickbind doesn't see play.

It's an interesting card for EDH.

[Cire]

https://magic.facetofacegames.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Silversmote_Ghoul_EN.png

Combine with creeping chill?

[Fox]

https://magic.facetofacegames.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Silversmote_Ghoul_EN.png

Combine with creeping chill?
Cling to Dust seems more sustainable and interactive.

[Barook]

Oh, hey, deathtouch for planeswalkers!

http://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/hoodedblightfang.jpg

And yet another card that interacts favorably with Martyr of Sands:

http://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/speakeroftheheavens.jpg

T1 This
T2 Martyr with at least two white cards in hand, sac it, swing with Speaker, activate post-combat to produce an Angel.

You could also splash black for the new Vampire to nuke opponents with massive Martyr lifegain.

[FTW]

Speaker and Serra Ascendant both interact very favorably with turn 2 Martyr of Sands in a mono W lifegain deck. (They're also all Humans for Cavern of Souls).

Martyr+Ascendant combo saw some play in Soul Sisters years ago, but it was too inconsistent and high variance. But now with more 1 cmc payoffs for Martyr, it could be a thing. You can use the old trick of Squadron Hawk to cheat more white cards into your hand.

Now there's also Ranger-Captain of Eos & Recruiter of the Guard at 3 cmc instead of just Ranger of Eos at unplayable 4 cmc (the deck's only tutor at the time).

[Barook]

Speaker and Serra Ascendant both interact very favorably with turn 2 Martyr of Sands in a mono W lifegain deck. (They're also all Humans for Cavern of Souls).

Martyr+Ascendant combo saw some play in Soul Sisters years ago, but it was too inconsistent and high variance. But now with more 1 cmc payoffs for Martyr, it could be a thing. You can use the old trick of Squadron Hawk to cheat more white cards into your hand.

Now there's also Ranger-Captain of Eos & Recruiter of the Guard at 3 cmc instead of just Ranger of Eos at unplayable 4 cmc (the deck's only tutor at the time).
Completely forgot about Ranger-Captain. That's actually a pretty good fit, especially with Vial. Charming Prince would work her as well well, since he can either flicker a Recruiter effect or gain 3 life by himself.

With all those cards being human, you could run a full set of Caverns. Main problem I can see is being nuked by Plague Engineer, aside from fast combo.

[FTW]

With all those cards being human, you could run a full set of Caverns. Main problem I can see is being nuked by Plague Engineer, aside from fast combo.

Fast combo can be managed via other white humans: Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Meddling Mage

Post-board Plague Engineer is the biggest threat. You could board in Honor of the Pure effects maybe?

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Fast combo can be managed via other white humans: Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Meddling Mage

Post-board Plague Engineer is the biggest threat. You could board in Honor of the Pure effects maybe?

Force Of Virtue gives you an extra white card when you don't need it and you can cast it in response to them investing the mana into engineer. (Just like a real force of will!)

[Barook]

Force Of Virtue gives you an extra white card when you don't need it and you can cast it in response to them investing the mana into engineer. (Just like a real force of will!)
Fair enough - works especially well extra Hawk copies.

Throw in some Moms to protect against removal and Oko and things gets somewhat coherent.

[Seymour_Asses]

Speaker and Serra Ascendant both interact very favorably with turn 2 Martyr of Sands in a mono W lifegain deck. (They're also all Humans for Cavern of Souls).

Martyr+Ascendant combo saw some play in Soul Sisters years ago, but it was too inconsistent and high variance. But now with more 1 cmc payoffs for Martyr, it could be a thing. You can use the old trick of Squadron Hawk to cheat more white cards into your hand.

Now there's also Ranger-Captain of Eos & Recruiter of the Guard at 3 cmc instead of just Ranger of Eos at unplayable 4 cmc (the deck's only tutor at the time).

Damn I've been thinking about Mono W lifegain for awhile. I just want to play Test of Endurance so I always tried to make it a prison deck. Using lifegain to make more dudes might be a better idea though*.

*or at least more viable competitively.

[Tobitzki]

Now that they’ve printed Kaervek, they can unprint Plague Engineer :tongue:

A 1000 times this.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Martyr proc is back (baby)?

[Barook]

Martyr proc is back (baby)?
Maybe, who knows. Vito can nuke amount huge amounts of life with Martyr. A black splash would also give you access to more disruption like Tidehollow Sculler or Kitesail Freebooter and Plague Engineer for opposing decks.

[Fox]

You guys are working too hard on a deck that can’t beat combo due to inability to interact, and would also struggle due to A then B then C combo without enough value or manipulation. Arguel’s Blood Fast + Dreadnought. Draw cards, or beat them down, or sometimes you get Vito and quad-Helix them (also you can play Plow if you want). Play one Vito, a few Entombs, and Sevinne’s - minimize useless topdecks (Vito). Shadow-Reanimator building also gets away with minimizing slots on Vito while doing the thing.

[morgan_coke]

Looking at some old Life.dec lists, I think the way to go is to lean into that plan, but with some newer additions like Collected Company and Vito. Maybe go Abzan to add some discard, you're really just trying to buy a turn or two to go off, and you've got the "bad beatdown" backup plan. Eladamri's Call, Living Wish, CoCo, Worldly Tutor, Crop Rotation, KotR, etc, you're going to be able to find your stuff, and Vito provides an instant win. I mean, even if you just go off without the full setup, you've bought yourself time to do it again with Vito in play for the win.

[Barook]

I wonder if you could set up Vito in some kind of Drain Stompy.

You could use token producers (Bitterblosson, maybe Ophiomancer/Dreadhorde Invasion) alongside Ayara, First of Locthwain for repeatable drain/card draw. Vito should also play nice with copies of Whip of Erebos since it grants lifegain. Plague Engineer and Murderous Rider can act as removal. Gary is the big payoff spell (could use the enchantment for the infinite combo as well). Fiend Artisan both feeds devotion and is a repeatable "Black" Sun's Zenith with the token producers. Throw in some disruption and you might have a deck.

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

What is Vito?

[Barook]

What is Vito?
The reverse drain Vampire that is two mana cheaper than comparable cards.

http://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/vitothornoftheduskrosep.jpg

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

The reverse drain Vampire that is two mana cheaper than comparable cards.

http://mythicspoiler.com/m21/cards/vitothornoftheduskrosep.jpg

Oh! I didn't know the name name.
Vito curves perfectly into Dellusions of Grandeur.

[FTW]

LOL. Illusions of Grandeur stompy.

[Barook]

Vito curves perfectly into Dellusions of Grandeur.
I like your way of thinking.

[the Thin White Duke]

LOL. Illusions of Grandeur stompy.

1000 times yes! Call the deck "One Punch Man". I will build this!

[FourDogsinaHorseSuit]

Very Cryptic Command is real now:
Sublime Epiphany, 4UU
Instant
Choose one, or more
-Counter Target spell
-counter Target activated or triggered ability
-Return target non-land permanent to its owner's hand
-Create a token of Target creature you control
-Target player draws a card

They added a Target clause to the card draw because of course they did. Why should players be able to punish blue mages casting cryptic to bounce/cycle

[morgan_coke]

I think the new Radha is actually the most relevant.

1GR, 3/3, future sight for lands, bunch of other text.

As long as it's not an Elk, that's a lot of stuff going on for any kind of lands type deck. And if it's still relevant, it doesn't stop you from running the Jegantha in the sideboard either.