[Deck] Grixis Tempo

Delvis is right on point. I play Anglers to be able to play more reactive. I used to play 4 pyro for a long time and then tried any mix between 1-4 Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Gurmag Angler and Sultai Scavenger. To my suprize, against the many BUG/Patriot decks for a while in the local meta, the Scavangers were backbreaking. They hit so fast without BUG being able to awnser them that the match-up was highly favored for me. Later on I swapped them towards Tasigur and Angler becouse Grixis/4-Color was getting more populair. Also the meta was packing up sweepers so the Pyromancers were not that strong anymore.
[edit:] Also having to pay a single mana for a big beater and have countermana/stifle mana open makes a difference. I can drop wastelands and Stifles without problems becouse I don't need to get up to 3 mana with this list. [/edit]

Some matches it's better to have a big guy hitting, other times it's better to have a ton of little brads hitting. At the moment it's a matter of preference I think. Both work fine.

Thanks for the tip on Mana Maze vs Shardless, going to try it.

I'm not sure about Painful Truths. It seems a bit odd to tap-out with 3 mana on your own turn to draw a few cards. But it might be my playstyle with the deck.

If I'm going to run a 3 mana spell it's going to be K-Command.

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Originally Posted by h2o

If I'm going to run a 3 mana spell it's going to be K-Command.

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A friend day 2d SeaTac with 4 Dark Confidants and no Gurmags. I think that has a lot of promise in the stifle builds. It means being really weak to -1/-1 effects of course.

my local meta has BUG Delver, so I don't want to overextend vs Golgari Charm. plus Angler matches up well against Goyf.

Yeah, I've played Tasigur and Angler and between the two, I would play the fourth Angler before the first Tasigur. And then probably move on to Tombstalker. The reason why is, Miracles and Lands are two of the biggest decks in my meta, followed by Stoneblade and Shardless, and Karakas sees play in 3 of those and the other plays Tarmogoyf. I have had a Tasigur get stonewalled by Karakas so many times that I feel like I have to point to where it touched me on a doll. And then activating him would almost always net me garbage. I preferred the way Angler matched up against Goyf and the way it ignored Karakas, and unlike in Modern where Tasigur works better with Thought Scour because math, you don't play crappy cantrips in Legacy so that's not a factor.

Playing 4 Bobs and zero Anglers may sound like you're asking to get blown out by -1/-1 effects, but almost nobody plays those main so you could even set up a sideboard plan of boarding into things that resist Golgari Charm and then blank half their sideboard. Not sure if that's what your friend did, but it seems completely reasonable.

after calcano's second place we are now back to 'established decks'?! :cry:

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Originally Posted by cherson

after calcano's second place we are now back to 'established decks'?! :cry:

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That's not how DTB/Established decks works...

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

That's not how DTB/Established decks works...

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ok, how does it work?

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Originally Posted by cherson

ok, how does it work?

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http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Deck-Selection

Went 4-3 yesterday due to boneheadedness, mainly.

Round 1, I drew 11 of my 19 lands in game 1 and then zero red sources in game 2. Against Infect. Not much you can do.

Round 5, I'm 3-1, but I show up late to the round, take a game loss, and lose to Temur Delver which I have plenty of sideboard cards for - as evidenced by the fact that I crushed it 2-0 the very next round.

Round 7, I'm 4-2 and alive for cash finish, but I forget that Thespian's Stage copies the name of the card it copies and die to a Marit Lage with a blank Pithing Needle on the board.

Basically, I only lost to myself and variance, and not the strength of the deck. I played 74 of the 75 I listed earlier in the thread, with the only change being swapping the 3rd Abbot for the 3rd Pyromancer, which was a good decision and paid dividends despite being a minor change, as it made my Therapies much stronger and I won multiple games on the back of an army of Elementals. I actually only resolved an Abbot once all day and it was mostly irrelevant, being creature number 6 or 7 against Death and Taxes who was already dead on board (it also flipped a Daze). Volcanic Spray felt miserable and I basically never wanted it, but I also was unimpressed with Engineered Explosives, so it's becoming a Darkblast to give me extra ways of killing Moms.

This deck is still very strong and well-positioned in the metagame, and while I understand the decision to move it to Established Decks due to decreased meta representation, I think it's a grave error to not expect to play against this deck in the winner's bracket - especially considering Calcano's finish at GP SeaTac and Ed Demicco's win at EE3.

Edit: I also forgot to mention that I 2-0'd Infect later in the tournament as well. So I crushed the two matchups I lost earlier, and the final round was my first loss to Lands in tournament play since the Dig ban. So, seriously. This deck is strong.

I've had some luck with Angler and K-Com as well. Been having a friend run a DRS/Angler/Delver/sulfur elemental Stifle list I brewed up running a pair of K-Coms as a nod to equipment rather than decays.

A card that strong against Equips and a Beater that large/cheap is what BR needed to become a much more viable slice of the pie IMO.

What are your guys' general sb plans vs other delver decks? (RUG/BUG/Etc)

I'll use Calcano's list as a baseline for a stock deck for now: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/339787#paper

I know you want darkblast, submerge (vs goyf decks only), pyroblast. I'm pretty on the fence with cabal. Maybe just 2, and bringing out 2 probes?

I bring out all the forces in the matchup, but I'm not sure if that's right. Maybe on the draw leave in 2 and drop all the daze's?

Surgicals.. maybe seem a bit too cute

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Originally Posted by Jaytron

What are your guys' general sb plans vs other delver decks? (RUG/BUG/Etc)

I know you want darkblast, submerge (vs goyf decks only), pyroblast. I'm pretty on the fence with cabal. Maybe just 2, and bringing out 2 probes?

I bring out all the forces in the matchup, but I'm not sure if that's right. Maybe on the draw leave in 2 and drop all the daze's?

Surgicals.. maybe seem a bit too cute

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->Darkblast I'd only bring in against Grixis. The others only have 4 targets.
->Submerge, as you said
->Cabal. Never? Maybe it's alright for stripping protection, but I think at that point I'd rather have a real card that they just spend protection on? Others should weigh in here.
->Pyroblast seems great
->Surgical is OK if you want to cut them off of a section of mana. Better against RUG than DRS Delver decks. By cutting them off of Green, for instance, you knock out 8 of 12 threats with your 0-mana card.

Normally you shave some Forces on the play, and some dazes on the draw. Some can be "all". There's not a hard-and-fast rule I don't think. There's some bit of next-leveling. Daze is slightly worse against the DRS decks; not only because of DRS, but also because they tend to run an extra land or two.

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Originally Posted by Jaytron

What are your guys' general sb plans vs other delver decks? (RUG/BUG/Etc)

I'll use Calcano's list as a baseline for a stock deck for now: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/339787#paper

I know you want darkblast, submerge (vs goyf decks only), pyroblast. I'm pretty on the fence with cabal. Maybe just 2, and bringing out 2 probes?

I bring out all the forces in the matchup, but I'm not sure if that's right. Maybe on the draw leave in 2 and drop all the daze's?

Surgicals.. maybe seem a bit too cute

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I would just like to note, first off, calling Calc's deck BURg Delver is not just technically wrong, it's a huge error. The only green thing his deck does is activate DRS sometimes. True BURg Delver is a very different deck, jamming Tarmogoyfs and Sylvan Libraries, as well as maindeck Abrupt Decay. But this argument has been hashed out. It just frustrates me.

I'm not sure how Calc did it, but I would probably board like this:

+2 Submerge
+1 Darkblast
+1 Flusterstorm
+2 Pyroblast
+4 Therapy
-4 Force of Will
-4 Daze (on the draw)
-1 Stifle//-1 Ponder//-1 Probe//-1 Daze (on the play)

I'm not sure if this is correct or not, that's just my initial perspective on it. Cabal Therapy is actually very good - naming their threat is a beating. I won a game (and the match) against a RUG Delver player on Sunday by blind naming Tarmogoyf, which was his only threat in hand. I get a lot of Tarmogoyfs with Therapies, it's the first thing I name in the blind because it's the toughest card for me to answer.

With 2 Submerge, your concern about Tarmogoyf may go down. But I would still bring in Therapies, as the matchup is all about landing a threat and stripping threats out of their hand is one of the more effective ways we have at winning that battle. Unfortunately, there's no sweet tricks with Submerging a creature and then immediately Therapying it back out. Oh well.

Pyroblast and Flusterstorm perform well here. BUG Delver's Decays are a concern, but there's nothing you can really do about that card (besides Therapy but we already talked about that). Both spells allow you to effectively fight a counter war. They may not see Flusterstorm coming, and it's quite good. I was able to protect a Pyromancer by Brainstorming into Flusterstorm for 3 on Swords to Plowshares when my Jeskai Delver opponent had 2 mana left. I untapped with 4 power on the table against his empty board.

Darkblast is fine but is probably the last card I bring in. It's good against Grixis and Jeskai but is simply okay against the green builds. You have a lot of cantrips, though, so you can theoretically set up Upkeep Darkblast>dredge>Main Phase Darkblast and protect it from Deathrite with Brainstorm.

Extraction is weak. You have the potential to Extract your opponent's dual lands, like keeping RUG Delver off Trops, by Wasting into Extraction. I have had my Volcanic Islands Extracted twice by RUG Delver players. I won both games in very short order. I don't think this is the line you want. You leave yourself open to them having one Bayou or Taiga to preserve their green sources, and you're not even necessarily depriving them of a color if they get an active Deathrite.

My boarding is somewhat different because of my different build, but you asked about Calcano's list. I hope I helped!

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Originally Posted by tescrin

->Darkblast I'd only bring in against Grixis. The others only have 4 targets.
->Submerge, as you said
->Cabal. Never? Maybe it's alright for stripping protection, but I think at that point I'd rather have a real card that they just spend protection on? Others should weigh in here.
->Pyroblast seems great
->Surgical is OK if you want to cut them off of a section of mana. Better against RUG than DRS Delver decks. By cutting them off of Green, for instance, you knock out 8 of 12 threats with your 0-mana card.

Normally you shave some Forces on the play, and some dazes on the draw. Some can be "all". There's not a hard-and-fast rule I don't think. There's some bit of next-leveling. Daze is slightly worse against the DRS decks; not only because of DRS, but also because they tend to run an extra land or two.

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I really like Cabal, because you can strip a threat early. The value to be had off of Young P feels so good too.

Cool, good point on Darkblast. I think I was wrong to bring in my Darkblast vs RUG. You're right, it really only hits an unflipped delver vs RUG.

I've gone back and forth on surgical for the same reason. Seems sweet to surgical RUG off of green, but it's really "cute". It does nothing if they've already resolved their threats.

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Originally Posted by Delvis

I would just like to note, first off, calling Calc's deck BURg Delver is not just technically wrong, it's a huge error. The only green thing his deck does is activate DRS sometimes. True BURg Delver is a very different deck, jamming Tarmogoyfs and Sylvan Libraries, as well as maindeck Abrupt Decay. But this argument has been hashed out. It just frustrates me.

I'm not sure how Calc did it, but I would probably board like this:

+2 Submerge
+1 Darkblast
+1 Flusterstorm
+2 Pyroblast
+4 Therapy
-4 Force of Will
-4 Daze (on the draw)
-1 Stifle//-1 Ponder//-1 Probe//-1 Daze (on the play)

I'm not sure if this is correct or not, that's just my initial perspective on it. Cabal Therapy is actually very good - naming their threat is a beating. I won a game (and the match) against a RUG Delver player on Sunday by blind naming Tarmogoyf, which was his only threat in hand. I get a lot of Tarmogoyfs with Therapies, it's the first thing I name in the blind because it's the toughest card for me to answer.

With 2 Submerge, your concern about Tarmogoyf may go down. But I would still bring in Therapies, as the matchup is all about landing a threat and stripping threats out of their hand is one of the more effective ways we have at winning that battle. Unfortunately, there's no sweet tricks with Submerging a creature and then immediately Therapying it back out. Oh well.

Pyroblast and Flusterstorm perform well here. BUG Delver's Decays are a concern, but there's nothing you can really do about that card (besides Therapy but we already talked about that). Both spells allow you to effectively fight a counter war. They may not see Flusterstorm coming, and it's quite good. I was able to protect a Pyromancer by Brainstorming into Flusterstorm for 3 on Swords to Plowshares when my Jeskai Delver opponent had 2 mana left. I untapped with 4 power on the table against his empty board.

Darkblast is fine but is probably the last card I bring in. It's good against Grixis and Jeskai but is simply okay against the green builds. You have a lot of cantrips, though, so you can theoretically set up Upkeep Darkblast>dredge>Main Phase Darkblast and protect it from Deathrite with Brainstorm.

Extraction is weak. You have the potential to Extract your opponent's dual lands, like keeping RUG Delver off Trops, by Wasting into Extraction. I have had my Volcanic Islands Extracted twice by RUG Delver players. I won both games in very short order. I don't think this is the line you want. You leave yourself open to them having one Bayou or Taiga to preserve their green sources, and you're not even necessarily depriving them of a color if they get an active Deathrite.

My boarding is somewhat different because of my different build, but you asked about Calcano's list. I hope I helped!

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To be honest, I was surprised they called it BURG when it is just the same ol Grixis list.

I feel the same way as you regarding therapy. I love bringing them all in against almost any deck as long as I know what deck they're playing. Especially with Young P, there's so much value to be had.

Good point on the Darkblast vs the green decks. I brought mine in, but what You said made a lot of sense. VS Rug, its only target is an unflipped Delver. Goyfs are rarely bigger than zombie fish in the RUG Matchup. Sometimes BUG's goyfs are bigger, so maybe bringing it in on the BUG matchup is worth it.

I think agree w/ surgical. I had my buddy playing RUG surgical my seas and I used DRS to eventually resolve a Zombie Fish and win the game. While surgical-ing them off a color can hose them, I feel like it requires a bit too much setup than we really want to devote.

isntead of darkblast u cld use disfigure. it is also usefull against drs. or do u often use disfigure for multiple targets? otherwise a forked bolt cld do the same?
I also use electrickery against all these x/1 creatures, also great against elves/gobo.

concering cabal therapy. I also like the synergy with gitaxian first round. not sure how many colcano list had.

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Originally Posted by cherson

isntead of darkblast u cld use disfigure. it is also usefull against drs. or do u often use disfigure for multiple targets? otherwise a forked bolt cld do the same?
I also use electrickery against all these x/1 creatures, also great against elves/gobo.

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There's a lot of different options for this slot, the anti-"go wide" slot. The advantage that Darkblast has over these other options is the oppressive way it can take over a game. It kills Moms with frequency. It fuels Dredge. Unlike some of the other damage-based options, it can be used in tandem with your creatures to take down a larger creature while leaving your guy on the table. Against most of the decks where you want this type of effect, it's actually very good. The downside is, it's not nearly as useful as something like Electrickery against decks like TES that make a giant pile of Goblins, or Elves which can create a large army quickly. So you gain a solid amount of value against the fair decks while ceding some value against the unfair ones. I'd play Darkblast because I have enough options against decks like TES and Elves already that I feel comfortable ceding that value, and also I want more game against decks like D&T, Infect, or Stoneblade, as well as the Grixis mirror.

As I mentioned, you can set up Darkblast killing a Deathrite with your cantrips. If you go for the upkeep blast into dredge the draw for the turn, your opponent will likely attempt to eat it with the Deathrite you're trying to kill, so if you have Brainstorm in hand you can protect that line of play by dredging the first draw from Brainstorm. It also has a nifty interaction with Brainstorm in that you can Brainstorm end step, put two garbage cards back, then dredge your draw for the turn and mill those garbage cards. Not as slick as fetching away the top 2, but still useful for resetting the top of your library.

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Originally Posted by cherson

concering cabal therapy. I also like the synergy with gitaxian first round. not sure how many colcano list had.

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The link's right there. He is playing 4 Probe main with 4 Therapy in the side. Therapy is definitely good main. If you have sufficient knowledge of the metagame, you can even successfully play it without resolving a Probe first, and it's good against fair decks as well as unfair ones. For a big tournament like a GP, and for an East Coast player playing on the West Coast, it's understandable to move them to the sideboard.

Forces are the first thing to board out against enemy Delver decks. Probes after that. I don't bring in Therapies.

Thoughts on Fiery Confluence as a sideboard card? Provides a surprising amount of reach (up to 6 non-targeted damage to your opponent), can kill Thresholded Mongoose armies, etc. Might just be better in my Prowess build since you don't want to deal your own guys too much damage in a more traditional list, but I think it has potential. It's also a sweeper effect that doubles duty as a burn spell and pseudo-Shatterstorm.