Printable View
That's fair. Taiga has been good for me as well, but Miracles still being on Lossett is odd, and not what Id expect to run into at SeaTac.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
How have you found Titan and Baneslayer, considering you cannot tutor them?
Sylvan is also the straight nuts in decks with this much lifegain.
Also, HBD.
I like baneslayer even though it cannot be tutored as its just such a beating against most decks. I am less thrilled with a 6 drop that cannot be tutored. I would imagine we do not even need a 6 drop but if you do is prime time for two towers not enough? On that note I like stronghold more. This deck has plenty of colorless cost in the spells so as long as we open on 3 land (or even 2 with vet/therapy) we should be fine for colors. This also opens an extra spell slot.
I still like truth over charm. I know charm doubles as removal (I think the counters will be less used but let me know if it comes up as I have not played with the card) but drawing 3 is so much better than 2. I really think that extra card is what makes truth playable. I have been testing a bug midrange deck with truths and snapcaster mage and its the real deal. I offset the life loss with Drs and ooze but rhino is way better at it. I would honestly run 2 truth where you have charm. If your goal is just go bigger then drawing more cards lets you find your bomb cards. No reason to give up the slight versatility of charm being a removal spell when we draw cards that invalidates that creature anyway. we already have multiple deeds plus decay.
You don't have to tutor for them. You'll draw into them or Top into them (Intent) if you need one. Baneslayer and Sun Titan are just generically powerful enough cards that it doesn't matter that they can't be Zenithed up. I don't know what it would take for me to run a white nic fit without Sun Titan. I know a lot of people are like, but 6-drops D:, but primeval titan D:, but dromoka D:.....etc, but Sun Titan is love, Sun Titan is life. I usually build my lists with an eye towards him, and he always rewards my faith. Much like Primeval in Scapewish (for those who remember this discussion), Sun Titan is a card that can get you out of so many situations that you have no right getting out of that I honestly don't think I could ever cut him.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Sylvan is something that I've slowly grown fond of as a 1-of at least in nic fit, especially in junk builds with lots of life gain. The issue I had was more that I couldn't find space for the card than that I didn't want to run it. Maybe I'll put Sylvan in over the maindeck Council's Judgment. I dunno.
Thanks for the birthday wishes, Matt :)
If you want to be able to tutor your random 6-drop, why not run a Fierce Empath?
Also enables the use of dredge creatures. And you can always sacrifice Empath to Intent (if you run it) or a flashbacked Cabal Therapy if you want to clear the way for said 6-drop. Nothing is worse then trying to cast your bomb, only to have it countered. Even if you miss with your Therapy, you at least know what you're up against before you can safely resolve your bomb.
Because Intent tutors for Deed/Top/etc., not just your fatty.
-Matt
You run Empath alongside Intent, not instead of.
I misread what you wrote, my apologies.
-Matt
No apologies needed :smile:.
But seriously though, Fierce Empath really is a worthwile card for this deck. Whether it fetches a "real" 6-drop like a Titan or Dragonlord Dromoka or a 6+ drop with dredge like Tasigur or Gurmag Angler. For Rhino-mana, you could also GSZ for Empath and cast Tasigur/Angler (when running Tasigur, you might value it over Rhino from time to time). The other line of play would be Empatj for a hard 6 drop (say Grave Titan, 10 power on 3 bodies is never bad) and then utilize Empath as a body for Therapy to clear a way through any counters/spotremoval (which would be more likely, if your opponent didn't counter the GSZ).
The only thing worth questioning though is would using that GSZ for a Rhino have gotten the job done as well. GSZ -> Empath might be this decks' equivalent of the Elves! "We play NO, so should we run this big green creature that might be just as good as Craterhoof but often just won't be?".
Empath is a fundamentally bad card in most versions of Nic Fit. Most versions, unless you're doing something weird/off-color, run 1 six-drop. This six-drop may or may not be green for purposes of GSZ -- each color and version tends to like different things. Here's the thing: six-drops don't tend to win games. They clear the way for your five-drops to win games (although, Rhino lists may edit that to be four-drops). Six-drops need to provide utility, not "kill you." One day, a six-drop version of Sigarda may be printed and that will change, but for now, Sigarda wins more games than any six ever has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
What this means is that you rarely want to actually tutor for your six drop, but you do want to draw into it when you can.
There's a couple of additional drawbacks to consider, too:
-) GSZing for Empath (common play) costs 4+6 to cast the creature it tutors, which means you're paying 10 mana for a 6-drop and the right to cast it.
-) Running a card like Empath with only one target is asking to get blown out.
-) Nothing guarantees the safety of the card you tutor for in your hand. In fact, it can make otherwise dead Thoughtseizes into game and match winning cards.
Now, there do exist versions for which I will agree to Fierce Empath -- basically anything running Food Chain comes immediately to mind. But am I going to run one in my solo-six-drop list? Nah. I'm good.
-edit- because didn't see your latest post. Getting Tasigur is kind of adorable, and I could see doing that. I'll note that I do have a couple issues with Tasigur as well -- notably that you can rarely get rid of all of the garbage and use him to actually draw powerful cards -- but being able to immediately play the "6-drop" that you fetch is strong. Still not something I'm going to do for my version, but it's worth remembering that trick. Good eye.
@Arianrhod: I get what you mean when it comes to Tasigur. On the other hand, I've also had enough games where Tasigur returning a PtE to my hand won me the game. Or a silly Dredge opponent returning Diabolic Intent to me only for me to Intent for RiP, lol. Admittedly, since my games usually go "Wreck stuff -> drop Tasigur -> wreck more stuff -> drop/cheat giant nuke on the field" Tasigur actually doing something good from time to time kinda turns into a self fulfilling prophecy.
Even then, one could run Gurmag Angler over Tasigur. Whilst only a vanilla 5/5 it can help break symmetry vs. an opposing Tasigur/Rhino/Tarmogoyf or help anwer an opposing Angler. But as with Tasigur, your other points concerning Fierce Empath still stand :smile:.
Karakas is still a card, as we can see. Nice Tasigur ;)
I'll be trying this this week:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan
16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
9
2 Abzan Charm/Truths
3 Abrupt Decay
5
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vraska (since it does kill Jace...)
4
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sylvan Learning Center
5
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
22
2 Grip
2 Needle
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Slaughter Games
3 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Your list is totally back to the way it was Pre-Cruise when I decided to try Rhino, so let's give it a shot and see.
If I were running Jund back again, I'd try:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Primeval Titan
15
4 Punishing Fire
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
13
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sylvan Library
11
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Kessig Wolf Run
+ 16 others
22
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
+6
Arguments to be made about jamming Liliana in here, of course.
-Matt
Don't I know it. The number of times I've had GSZ/Empath/Tasigur in my hand whilst staring at a Karakas, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Does help you clear out your graveyard incredibly quick though.
There's quite a few Lands in my meta.. (the GR one that can combo really fast).. how do you guys deal with this? I feel like putting blood moon in my sb...
@Tasigur. I ran him when he first came out and he is almost just a beater. Karakas is back now that DnT can beat Show and tell again. I wouldnt run a delve guy or empath unless its part of some combo kill. If I had a delve creature I would prefer Stalker as 5 power flying is better than a ground pounder and worth the mana.
@Bloodmoon. I ran 2 in my jund list and it is good but lands will bring in decay/grip so be prepared to also turbo out a thrun or titan. It is also basically only a card I bring in for lands/post. Even against decks like delver where it is good do NOT bring it in. It will screw you more times than save you. We win as long as we can cast spells.
@Vraska. This is not a good card. I did run a Garruk PH in my jund list and for a 5 mana walker it is better than vraska.
Yea saving it only for lands (+ dark depths variants) and cloudpost is what I had in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom4ik
My experiences with abzan charm:
- the +1+1 is a nice tool for when you need fast a clock (i like to run one strangleroot geist as a secret weapon and a 4/3 or 5/4 with haste can be nice. It's good as a clock, can suprise kill a planeswalker and works well with phyrexian tower and diabolic intent if needed)
- the toolbox effect allows you to cut other spells for tighter build
- the one less card draw isn't too bad if you combine it with sensei or if you considee that if you really need to find the answer with the third card you are most probably fucked anyway.
- people seem to be trigger happy when it comes to countering abzan charm so you can easily bait them with charm.
I've been experimenting with Depths, Stage, Knight, Primetime recently over the SFM/Skull/Dryad package from my last list:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post907021
With Truths, SDT, GSZ for your land-finding bombs... it's not so hard to assemble the combo, and it does help you out of jams.
Haven't had a ton of time for any real testing, but something to consider, I think.
Instant speed is also pretty important for the card draw mode (truths is a sorcery).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadadot
Hey all! It's been awhile!
Just stopping by to say a quick hello. I imagine I'll see some of you in St. Louis and Seattle/Tacoma very soon!
I'll give some thoughts when I get home to my computer.
Went 3-1 with Ari's list (with a few minor tweeks). Beat d & t in 3 (grindy games as usual), goblins in 2, merfolk in 3 (kept a one land game one) and then lost to Tom play non-Vet Bug.
On the meadery's stream the last 2 matches.
I'm hoping to get some more testing tomorrow (barring my car being a giant pain)