Rhino-fit is something I've been wanting to try. Have you considered Garruk, Primal Hunter? As for lands, I find the quick marit lage to be the problem. Also, hows the MUD matchup?
So, what do we think the best way to beat miracles is? Lily, faster clock, fires? Next to maybe MUD or 12 post....probably my worst match-up.
2nd thought: Who will be in St. Louis.....or Seattle for the GP?
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
My current (everchanging) build. Suggestions welcome.
I wanted to try out the addition of probe and painful truth because the deck has good lifegain in general and i wanted to use that as a additional ressource. In addition it allows me to draw my reccuring nightmare earlier and improves my cabal therapies as i am still learning the format.
I got rid of most of the stuff which would die to deed and through which i would cripple myself.
Just tried on xmage but it works well so far.
On a sidenote: I'm beginning to fall in love with painful truth. After the banning of dig you can actually win through card advantage against blue decks.
Lands 21:
Bayou
Savannah
Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
Phyrexian Tower
Stirring Wildwood
Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
Creatures 15:
Deathrite Shaman
4 Explorer
Qasali Pridemage
Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
Sigarda
Thragtusk
Control Stuff 13:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
Other Stuff 11:
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truth
Recurring Nightmare
Sideboard:
Pissing Needle
3 Extirpate
Night of Soul's Betrayal
Surgical Extraction
Acidic Slime
2 Krosan Grip
Maelstrom Pulse
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...08&#post749308Originally Posted by jbone2016
Punishing Fire imo has the best the best matchup against Miracles. You have awesome SB options as well as Fire to keep Jace under control and go well with Liliana (protect it against their small guys and discard it to her ability). I wrote a primer about the deck ages ago, decklists needs to be reworked. But looking at the recent Miracle lists it should still be somewhat up to date. Some broken stuff got printed and banned again but oddly enough it seems that not much has changed. The Dragonlord Atarka seems good. No idea about the other matchups though. But a big problem is Dark Depths, there seems to be no solution.
"Faster clock" is the absolute wrong approach to the Miracle matchup. The Miracle deck excels at stopping aggression. It is designed to beat aggressive decks that are 10x better at being aggressive than Nic Fit. You have to play for value. Liliana is awesome though because they can't StoP it or Terminus it.
The only 2 cards against depth's (3/4 actually) are Blood Moon, Diabolic Edict and Extirpate/Surgical Extraction (when they dredge depths or stage into the yard). RG Lands is just near impossible to win from.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
I was playing/testing punishing fit with Burning Wish in the main and Ruination in the sideboard this spring. It was nice to have something available from the first game for the worst matchups - Cloudpost and Lands. Also relevant for locking nonbasic heavy decks out once you have a favorable board position. Will try again soon.
Playing Ralf's(?) BUG Wish Fit with Cunning Wish for Ravenous Trap after a dredged Depths is another relevant interaction. The nice thing about it is you don't need to have Trap in your hand, often a dead card, but can keep a wish and wait until the opportunity to exile Depths with the entire graveyard appears.
Good cards vs Miracles are, I agree, Punishing Fire killing Jaces and occasional Mentors. And Slaughter Games getting win condition/Jace/Terminus.
@ miracle : punishing fit has the better game against it, post side a quick slaughter games (maybe fueled by carpet of flowers ) is the way to beat them, go after their win con (jace then entreat/mentor) then witness it back/play a second one. Drop a threat, ride it 'till they answer, rice and repeat (bonus point if you have the two towers online and can rhino them).
I splash a taiga and 3 S.games in rhino fit for that match up (also work against 12 post, albeit not as strongly) if shardless can splash a 4th color for a match up post side I think we can do it.
Also equipment and the surprise arbor can cut some work (or wolfrun plus any dork in the punishing version)
@ lands : that's the reason why I play 4 path (that and some zombie fishes), also most lands players tend to ignore the fact that we usually can survive one marith lage hit and swing back. If your meta is saturated with dark depth you can always pack some sowing salt (or the reprint) but it clutter the sideboard if your not playing burning wish. One thing to keep in mind is that chalice will come for postside games,so keep a decay/deed at the ready.
@ faster clock : rhino fit is the fast version, and it isn't fast enough to win without disruption but it is midrangy whereas punishing is hard board control (and I haven't played bug fit so I have no idea how it plays)
My latest BUG control list has a lot of tools against miracle. GLE is a nightmare for miracle where Thragtusk is just a pain.
I dunno if there is a best version against miracle. JUND has certainly the best chances to beat miracle in 3 games BUT 50 mins are usually not enough.
My latest approach is focusing on winning G1 and I do believe that BUG is as suited as JUND if not more, as of now, to accomplish this goal.
- Jace is usually a pain for Junk.
- A resolved Deed avoids dying from Entreat.
- Liliana forces them to act. And we all know that the first making any move in a control mirror is usually the one who is going to lose.
- Jund is the better liliana.deck among all nic fit version.
- Cabal therapy are key factors; knowning what you must go for with what Nic Fit version you are playing is key.
Pick your weapon of choice and start testing !
PS: It's been a while since I played with the BUG Wish version. The list was shinning during DTT era.
It might need a bit of revamping since the meta has changed again...
But I would love hearing from other players who have played with it.
For Punishing Fire versions:
1. You play Control against Miracles. There are three ways you can lose the game 1.
- The first is that they get Counterbalance out and you can't deal with it. So play enough Abrupt Decays. When I wrote the primer Miracle played only 2-3 CB so 2 Decays seemed enough. I would go to 3 now and remove a Fire for it. Probably also add this new GSZ disenchant, Reclamation Sage. CB needs to be kept off the table.
- The second way that they can win is with an unanswered Jace. You have to fight Jace with Fire and Thrun and Discard.
- The third way is a big Entreat in the late game. If you managed to keep CB and Jace off the table you should have been able to put a Deed on the table at some point and leave it unused.
2. To ensure that you can find the right answers Sensei's Top is the most important card. I think 4 copies of it in Punishing Fire versions is correct. I think even 3 is not enough. 2 is certainly not enough. Games 2 and 3 get much easier because you have REB for Jace and Slaughter Games for Entreat or Jace and maybe an additional Disenchant effect for CB and an additional big threat. But in G1 you need to spin the Top a lot to find your answers. Maybe this new draw spell (3 Mana draw x lose x) can replace a Top.
3. What you should not do is trigger Explorer carelessly. I always sided it out for G2 and G3, designing the SB to be able to do this is very helpful. In G1 it is half of the time better to sacrifice a Witness or a Huntmaster token to Therapy. Your hand needs to have a lot of gas if you commit to triggering Explorer. They have Brainstorm and Jace to shuffle away extra lands but you don't.
4. Liliana is great against them. She is not integral but she makes it easier to follow your game plan.
5. Time is a major issue in this matchup. Many Divining Tops and going full late game. Play fast yourself from turn 1 on and don't hesitate to call a judge on your opponent if he is thinking to long.
Don't for get Mentor and all those shenanigans. We do have answers, but that card requires them to be pretty immediate before we take tons of damage.
Oh yeah, that is true. Mentor is a new card that I don't have any experience playing against.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Abzan Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
//sb
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Tsunami
2 Abrupt Decay
First draft of a white-based list (rhino centric) with an eye towards EE3 this weekend.
Nissa has impressed me as a tutorable planeswalker in Bring to Light in standard, and white fit lists have a tendency of going long enough to make her a possibility here. Plus: sun titan value.
Safekeeper may end up getting cut for a higher-impact card pending my local tomorrow. I've liked Safekeeper in conjunction with Sun Titan before, but he may not be good enough at the moment.
Abzan Charm > Truths when in junk. I'd rather have the flexibility -- I can path a Tasigur or zombie fish, but still draw cards when I need to. Or make a 7/7 sigarda.
Diabolic Intent is my 3rd Top. The idea is that it's a 3rd Top that is also a 6th sac outlet. Alternatively, sometimes it can bring together the rhino-nightmare loop. But mostly it's just a Top.
Ob Nix + Elspeths to piss off Miracles and other grindy matches. Ob Nix is on the chopping block if Nissa tests well.
I really like abzan charm. I think i will cut painful truth and replace it with charm. Which allows me to cut a path to exile.
Don't you miss spot removal like swords to plowshares or path to exile in your deck? (besides charm)
I feel like your deck is too heavy on the creature/walker side and lacks board control. But that's just like my opinion.
I focus on beating Miracles in game one. I don't like running StP/Path for that reason. Things like Charm, Decay, Council's Judgment, Pulse -- all of those are fine options, because they do more than -just- kill a bro. I might end up going -1 Safekeeper -1 Finks for +1 Charm +1 Council's or +1 Charm +1 Decay. My issue at that point is that GSZ starts looking lackluster -- before cuts, I currently have 12 non-Veteran green creatures to grab with 4 Zenith, which is a good ratio. Dropping to 10 makes Zenith look better at 3-of, and that isn't really where I want to be.
I forgot about Abzan Charm. Going to swap out the Truths for those. 1 less draw, but its at instant speed, which is huge. Reminds me of Esper Charm.
Went 4-0 matches / 8-0 games last night at the local. Beat Miracles, DnT, Imperial Painter, DnT. I cut the Safekeeper before the event for a Reclamation Sage, which was actually pretty good on the night. I also went -1 Ob Nix +1 Golgari Charm based on fear of Elves. Otherwise, I played the list as previously posted.
Snapshot notes:
Flip!Nissa was surprisingly very good. I put it in thinking it could be real in theory, but I wasn't prepared for it to actually live up to my expectations. It served a purpose both as a borderland ranger and as a Zenith threat lategame. Flipped her multiple times on the night, and she was consistently solid. I also got to flip her one game off of bringing a land back with Sun Titan, which felt real good.
DnT is a shitty ass deck when they don't draw Revokers in any game :D
Only drew one Abzan Charm on the night, which turned into two more cards against miracles. Didn't love the card anyway, but some of that the fact that I had three dead matchups for it (DnT x2, Imperial). Their creatures are too small to exile, and you don't need the draw 2 against those decks.
Slaughtered Imperial's Painters g2 on a mull to 5. Felt real good. Also won that game.
Elspeth probably isn't necessary in the sideboard. Bringing in Slaughters, Tsunami, and artifact/enchantment removal is sufficient for that matchup since the deck is already built to beat Miracles. Those two slots are probably going to become at least 1 DnT card, possibly two. I didn't like feeling soft to DnT -- if either of my opponents had hit a Revoker and backed it with a Mom, I would've been pretty far up shit creek with only 1x Golgari Charm as an out, which seemed pretty poor. I'm also cutting the maindeck Finks (still) -- probably making it a Council's Judgment.
"Toxic Deluge" is a must as a 1-of or a 2-of depending on your list.
Some like it MD, other has a sideboard material.
I also like having a "grip" somewhere in the 75.
I can tell from experience that even if our deck is designed to "go over the top", BSK can be a f.ing nightmare (attached to an avenger for example). The corner case where you blow up BSK with deed/pulse/ what have you, followed by a therapy to get rid of it, is more likely than not a very wet dream.
By the way, how did you beat Miracle ? Sigarda + resolved deed ?
PS: Forgot about the abzan charms... Gonna test it to assess whether 3 cards > flexibility.
Yeah, this is where I'm at after updates:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Council's Judgment
2 Abzan Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
//sb
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Tsunami
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Council's Judgment
1 Krosan Grip
Miracles was basically I just ground him out game one...rhino drains eventually piled up, and he spent too much time removing my threats. Nissa drew me two cards a turn for 3-4 turns, as well, before she got Council's'd. Game two I had Sigarda vs his Jace, Slaughtered his Terminuses, and he scooped.
Yeah, and if you had Teegs it would be even crazier. Unless they have really great sequencing of cards, we are pretty favoured. Recurring Rhinos is really hard for a lot of decks to interact with.
Are you not a fan of Volrath's Stronghold?
I would use Qasali because of the exalted usage, and the fact of freakin' Inkmoth Nexus :p
My issue with Qasali has always been that it doesn't leave the body behind, but costs the same amount of mana. In the abstract, I agree that Qasali is the better card -- but leaving the body behind for Therapy and Intent has been notably important to me in the past.
I don't even worry about Inkmoth Nexus -- if I run into Infect, I'm probably just losing anyway. Same philosophy I have with Reanimator. I prefer to focus on decks that are a larger meta share and require less than 10 sideboard cards dedicated to beat.
Volrath's has always felt very clunky to me. I prefer Nightmare for my recursion engine...and both isn't really that good, I feel. The other issue with Volrath's is that it's a colorless land -- our spells are almost always better than our opponents', so the only games we generally lose are those games where we don't get to cast them. I'd rather have the stronger mana base than the extra utility land. The Taiga is a necessary concession to Slaughter Games being a god amongst insects, but I don't really want another land that doesn't help pay abzan costs.
My issue with Teeg is mostly philosophical. I don't like turning off my own Green Sun's, and I don't like turning off my sideboard cards. I would rather have GSZ, Tsunami, and Slaughter Games postboard than just Teeg and -possibly- cut out some of their spells. The other issue with Teeg is that locally, at least, all of the Miracles decks are still on the Karakas package. Teeg might be a bit better in the wider metagame, but I still hold to that the 4-drop sideboard cards are stronger than sometimes denying some of their spells.
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