While I like that list in theory, in actual practice, once you have that many creatures, wouldn't it be better to drop Delver and run a more midrange deck? There are only 23 Instants and Sorceries, which means flipping Delver seems dicey, at best.
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While I like that list in theory, in actual practice, once you have that many creatures, wouldn't it be better to drop Delver and run a more midrange deck? There are only 23 Instants and Sorceries, which means flipping Delver seems dicey, at best.
You & Goddick missing 4 Wasteland, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
I don't think so, this is still a tempo deck utilizing Daze and Wasteland and as such is more often the beatdown deck than not, you need to be applying pressure early. You still have Ponders and Brainstorms to help flip it too. 23 is a reasonable, albeit greedy, number of spells while 15 is hardly an unusually high number of creatures for TA. As mentioned a few pages back, if we could run Shamans 5-8 it'd be a no-brainer, but for curve considerations Delver is the best option.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Good catch, I just copy and pasted the list from a few pages back. Definitely four Wasteland!Quote:
Originally Posted by Manipulato
I am feeling like an idiot right now but is there not a primer for 4c delver? I see it talked about a lot but I can't seem to find it in any of the legacy development boards.
Depends on what you mean by 4c delver. If you want the thread with maindeck green spells and tarmogoyf: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...eck-bUrg-TempoQuote:
Originally Posted by Ryu
If you want the grixis deck that plays young pyromancer:http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...B-Grixis-Tempo
I'm sure whether or not I run Hymn vs Thoughtseize and how many Liliana's will affect the answer, but I was wondering if I could play Bug Delver if I have the following duals: 4 Tropicals, 2 Bayou, 2 Underground Sea. I've been working towards getting the playset of Goyfs and am holding off until later to get the last few Underground Seas, so that in the meantime I can play a deck first. Is this possible/advisable?
Yeah, you usually want to fetch Usea Usea, or Usea Bayou.
Spell pierce is exactly to be able to counter jace. I am not to bothered about other applications as we win combo anyways. I never board them in for delver mirrors where daze and fow do the work much better
You can certainly play the deck at a local tournament with only 2 seas. Just replace the last with darkslick shores, more fetches or watery graves (or something more creative).
One idea i would be interested in trying out would be winter orbs for the sideboard. With overlap between miracles and lands, it would allow space for some lands slots
i´ve been testing around the last few days with different approaches and finally tested goddiks list which felt great. How do guys think about the grixis delver matchup? Tested against several decks and had the impression that grixis was a tough one, even if you win the DRS/Ressource battle, basically their burnspells favor them at racing, while your hymns become dead pretty soon. At least Preboard i usually felt clunkier and couldnt fit a real control role either, cause its hard to control Young Pyromancer preboard or the Gurmag Angler
The matchup is fine
Level 1: Deathrite advantage - FOW/Daze deathrite agressively
Level 2: Bomb advantage - They have gurmag angler, you have goyf/stalker/liliana
Their bolts give them some advantage in level 1, your creatures give you advantage in level 2.
They delvers and Young peezis are super easy to kill, and usually only really get you if they get too far ahead in level 1. I have a strong dislike for peezy.
Tips and tricks to win the bomb war
1) Use your wastelands as mana + to "tap your oponent out" by wasting untapped sources before you need to daze through key plays
2) Board out hymns, keep all dazes and fows (otp and otd)
3) play your bombs when you can protect them with countermagic
Think of yourself as something akin to a 1-card combo deck with tarmogoyf/stalker/liliana as your combo
thanks for the great explanation :)
will give it a shot asap, this Weekend ive got a local tournament where i will give it a try. If i dont fail miserably on the supertest this weekend, i think im going to play it at Prague eternal as well
You could always include darkblast in your sideboard mix if you're having issues with delvers and young pyromancer. Or even maelstrom pulse if you wanted a less narrow but more expensive option.
@Goddick: Could you give us a short sideboarding plan gainst the most common decks with your list? Really looking Forward playing your list at my next locals, would be great! Thx.
I, too, would like to see a sideboard guide. A lot of it is obvious, but stuff like Jace the Mindsculptor seems so foreign to me in a Delver list.
I'm also sleeving up Goddik's list for my next Legacy local. Ironically, I was able to find a second Vendilion Clique really easily, but still haven't found anyone with 2 Tombstalkers for trade. :laugh:
Hi guys
Here are my sideboarding notes for the build against a couple of usual archetypes.
Shardless
-4 Hymn
- 3 Fow/Daze (Play/Draw)
+3 submerge
+2 Jace
+2 Sower
Lands
-4 Decay
+3 Suberge
+1 Spell pierce (not very good, but it is whats in the sideboard)
4c Loam
+3 submerge
-3 Hymn
Maybe cut the last hymn for sylvan
Miracles
-4 Daze
-2 Waste
+2 Pierce
+1 Null Rod
+1 Sylvan
+2 Jace
You can cut more wastes for envelop if you have them
Elves
+3 Submerge
+2 Toxic
+2 GG Charm
-2 Tombstalker
-1 V. Clique/Delver
-4 Daze
Cut more creatures for envelop if you have them
Dnt
-4 Fow
-4 Daze
-2 Delver
+2 GG Charm
+2 Toxic
+1 Sylvan
+2 Jace
+2 Sower
+1 Nullrod
You are control in the matchup. Otp it could be correct to shave more creatures to keep some dazes. Creatures often get plowed/brickwalled, so the usual gameplan is to kill everything that moves and eventually find a jace that brainstorms until they are dead. Prioritize lands and sweepers on the ponders
Storm
-4 Decay
-2 Stalker
+1 Null Rod
+2 Pierce
+1 Sylvan
+2 GG Charm
Cut more creatures for envelop if you have them/ toxic deluge if you know they are heavily on the gobbo plan
Grixis delver
-4 Hymn
+2 GG Charm
+2 Toxic
Mirror
+3 Submerge
-3 Hymn
(You can board jaces or sowers, i usually dont, but i know people i respect that do. In that case i would shave the last hymn and a fow/daze depending on play/draw. Bringing 4 4 drops in seems ambitious).
It may be right to shave the last hymn for the sylvan library
Eldrazi
+2 Sower
-2 Clique
Alternatively, an option is to cut a further 2 delvers otd to make room for Jace TMS and play around chalice. I doubt they can beat Jace
Goddik, congrats on the results, they speak for themselves.
Before seeing your success I was running this list and was pretty happy with it:
Lands - 19:
4 x Polluted Delta
4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Underground Sea
2 x Bayou
1 x Tropical Island
4 x Wasteland
Creatures - 14:
4 x Deathrite Shaman
4 x Delver of Secrets
4 x Tarmogoyf
1 x True-Name Nemesis
1 x Vendilion Clique
Spells - 27:
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Ponder
2 x Thoughtseize
4 x Daze
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Abrupt Decay
1 x Liliana of the Veil
4 x Force of Will
Sideboard - 15:
2 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Spell Pierce (or Envelope, or 1 x SP and 1 x Flusterstorm, this will probably become Invasive Surgery)
1 x Disfigure (or 1 x Dark Blast)
2 x Golgari Charm
1 x Null Rod
1 x Pithing Needle
2 x Dark Confidant
1 x Sylvan Library
2 x Submerge
1 x Liliana of the Veil
At our Legacy weekly last night I tried out a list much closer to yours. The only main deck differences were +1 Goyf, -1 V. Clique, and +1 Ponder, -1 land.
I didn't run the second T. Deluge or any Jaces in the SB.
I really like the idea of just going bigger, but in practice most of my draws felt somewhat clunky. I played against Lands, Elves, Stompy, and Miracles.
Tombstalker always felt hard to land. He would sit in my hand staring at me early when I wanted to play a threat and then later I would often not feel like I had the time to deploy a tomb stalker that could easily be answered or attacked around to close out a game. The four hymn were sweet though (double hymning someone is awesome). Maybe I should be running 4 hymn whether or not I play stalker.
Also, the delvers felt way worse than usual. One game I played double delver on turn 2 and they didn't flip for 6 turns (then again, this can happen with any configuration of lists).
Any thoughts on why this version didn't feel as smooth to me? It is possible the slight card changes make the deck play out differently and so I was prioritizing the wrong things.
Hard to say
The deck is very much a 75 card deck though. Some matchups will play out very differently without the toxic and jace, as that means you cannot take on the control role. One of the main strengths of the deck is the ability to switch roles after board.
you btw hit all the matchups where i would consider boarding tombstalker out. He is pretty bad against miracles, we just have worse cards to throw out. Same counts for lands, although a bad tarmogoyf there, is still a way to kill them through punishing fires.
@Goddik, How do you feel about your list and going to 19 lands and add the 4th Ponder?
Currently i am looking towards thay option, along with going to 4 Goyf and 1 Stalker.
You don't like Null Rod in these matchups for Mox Diamond?Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddik
I can't help it, what about to go with Goddik's list, get to know it from all perspectives first, instead of trying to modify to your liking? (almost every one tend to does that, myself included)
IMO each version of this deck require its own playstyle, even few changes will have huge impact on how to play the deck. Let me quote part of Goddik's response "The deck is very much a 75 card deck though"
TA is a deck with lot of options (hymn, stalker heavy, stifle, confidant etc), it is also deck, that has game almost against every possible deck one can imagine, it is also deck, that has no match-up considered "autowin/autolose", one hase to fight hard every game, which is exhausting in a long tournament. On the other hand, that is what makes this deck good in right hands.
I know, that I will do better with version I have experience with, meanwhile, why not try out other options. But do not get disappointed when score is not exactly x:0 every time.
btw: thanks Goddik for sideboard how-to with your list!
P.S. I do not play his version, my plan is still TNN, posted few pages back, but I am going to try Goddik's "retro" version for sure.
well, just came back from the local event i mentioned earlier and after i had a short break for some awesome sandwhiches here is my report :)
This was the 75 i played, i am still missing some cards so i had to make a few changes. Mostly i am missing the 2 Sower of Temptation, cause i imagine them really good in the Matchups, where you want to bring them in
http://deckstats.net/deck-9357437-fc...b9298f229.html
Maindeck i was missing the 7th Fetch target and one Tomb Stalker, i replaced those by a swamp and TNN. The Swamp is just a temporary Solution, cause i simply do not have another U-Sea nor the Trop, but i will get something soon. Along with the Dual i was missing the 2nd Tombstalker, but added a TNN instead, which i think isnt the worst replacement afterall. My Sideboard looked slightly different, but i will include Sower of Temptation and the 3rd Submerge asap. Anyway, lets get to the games i played.
Round 1 - UB Reanimator: I win the die roll and keep an opener containing Delver, Force, Daze, BS, Ponder and 2 Fetchlands. Against unknown i felt pretty comfortable with it, fetch for Underground Sea play Delver and say go. My Opponent opens up with Careful Study, discarding Iona and Grizzlebrand. I consider dazing it, but dont because i like to rather go for his reanimation spells with Daze + Force Backup. Anyway, on Turn 2 i take care of the delver flipping with BS, and look for some additional disruption, but cant find anything relevant. Relying on my Delver as clock and Daze + Force Backup i pass the turn and lose to his reanimate on grizzlebrand, sadly with Daze + Force backup as well.
-4 Hymn
+ Flusterstorm
+ Spell Pierce
+ 2 Submerge, expecting the green Splash for decay
Game 2 was rather quick. I draw DRS, Daze, Submerge, Wasteland, Fetchie + X. I open up with Fetch, Tropical, DRS and pass the turn. His turn 1 is Underground Sea, Petal, Petal, Entomb, Reanimate => GG, played it to the end, but he never fetched for a green Source and he counters my hardcast sumberge.
yeah, great Start at with 0:2. But to be honest, i havent been that sad afterall. Having playtested Reanimator for some time, i know how rare this draws with Combo + multiple protection are and im perfectly fine with having lost to those draws, because pretty much 95% of the field would lose to them. I think i might have been wrong not dazing the careful study, but in this case there wouldnt have been any difference, cause he had the counters anyway.
0-1 Overall
Round 2 - 4 Color Loam: Game 1 was close. First Delver gets hit by P Fire, Hymn takes down Dark Confidant and Abrupt Decay. The board is Tarmogoyf + TNN on my side, he has just Lands and a Chalice @ 1. We are both empty handed and his Lifecount drops quickly. My next few Topdecks are Bricks (Lands + Delvers) and he manages to find a decay, KoTR and last but not least a Zenith that goes and gets Scavenging Ooze which wins him the game, since he was at 1 life and is able to gain life and Race my TNN. Well, not sure i did any major misplays, but i think the Boardstate i accomplished should generally favor me?
- 3 Delver
- 1 Clique
+ 2 Submerge
+ Spell Pierce
+ Fluster Storm
I wanted to get rid of some Creatures that die to PFire and Chalice on 1, so i went this route regarding the SB. Have to mulligan to 5, cause my first to hands, where usea + 6 spells without can trip and wasteland only at 6. I didnt want to lose to a single wasteland with my initial seven, it felt like too much of a Gamble. At 5 Cards i find 2 Lands, Ponder, Goyf, Hymn and we got some game going. As expected he anwsers my Turn 1 Ponder with a wasteland on his side, so i think i was correct to not take the gamble. A few turns later i have Tarmogoyf + TNN on the board again and hymn him but it hits nothing relevant. Short after he plays Toxic Deluge, followed up by liliana the next turn and i never find a way back. Well 0-2 again sadly, but regarding the fact that i went down to 5 cards, i still had some pretty game. If i imagine having had those 2 extra hand cards, for example to have a counter up for deluge, it wouldve been a win for sure. So mixed feelings on my side, but im ok with it and it didnt feel miserable afterall. Honestly i think the matchup should pretty solid in general and absolutely winnable.
0-2 Overall, welcome to the losers bracket. Anyway i wanted to get some games going to gain some confidence in piloting it.
Round 3 - The Rack Artifact Burn Control(?!): Some interesting homebrew but nothing too relevant going on. Longstory short: I win 2-1
1-2 Overall
Round 4 - Goblins: He told me afterwards he tested it against Eldrazi, had a positive Matchup and wanted to rogue the meta (There were several Eldrazi decks around). I win the die roll, Turn 1 Delver, Daze his Vial, Delver Flips, Decay his followups, Hymn away his last handcards and win soon.
- 4 FoW
- 4 Daze
+ 2 Deluge
+ 2 Charm
+ 1 Jace
+ 1 Library
+ 1 Null Rod
+ 1 Jitte
Game 2 can be described as : Double Goyf, Deluge, Win. Add some random cantrips/fetches and there we go :D
2-2 overall
Round 5 (Last Round) - Burn: Mehhhh, burn. Lost the die roll and get burned into oblivion pretty quick game 1, nothing special to report here.
- 2 Wasteland
- 1 Clique
+ Jitte
+ Spell Pierce
+ Flusterstorm
Game 2 was the "easy" part since i am on the play. I have Delver + DRS in my opener and decide to open up on delver so i can race and im ok with him burning it away, rather than my DRS. My Followup DRS sadly gets searing blazed. My Lifecount is still pretty high anway and through fetching and cantripping im able to land T3 Tombstalker, which is followed up by Jitte and i win the Race. While Racing the only thing i did was deploying a wasteland to possibly target my own lands, which proved a great idea, because he told me afterwards that he had double Price of Progress :laugh:
Game 3 was the real struggle. He starts with burning me to the face and follows up with an eidolon. I decay his eidolon, take some more burn to the face, I hymn him down to 1 handcard and from there on can force him into topdeck mode with liliana. My Lifecount suffered a lot and im down to 2 Life in between, but with some cantripping i manage to get 2 DRS online and recover myself to 8 Life. At some Point i find a Goyf, which starts to go beatdwon mode and somehow manage to stay alive, through discarding Creatures, Spell Piercing his Burn Spells, etc. Not the nicest game, but somehow i got there :D
3-2 Overall. Anything but an overwhelming result, especially after the 0-2 start. But still im fine with those losses and the way i lost those games, especially regarding Round 1 against reanimator. After the Tournament ended, i get a "competetive" game going against a Death and Taxes Player which i didnt get paired against during the Tournament. Long Story Short i end up winning 2-1 against Death and Taxes and i am happy to have played that other matchup as well, just to get some practice. Just as goddik said, it comes down to being the control player and the Sideboard is great for that purpose. Btw something i didnt think of before, Clique is awesome against Stoneforge + Spirit of the Labyrinth - take your Equipment and you dont draw anything :cool::laugh:
yeah, so here we go with my 2 cents. Final Thoughts - Need some more practice but its fun and its capable of anything