This is to dodge the growing number of blue/hydro blasts in Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
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This is to dodge the growing number of blue/hydro blasts in Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Does anyone who's tested Processor know if there's a "set" amount of life to pay or do you have to know when to pay how much? Haven't picked the card up but I see the merrit.
I played shortcake over the weekend at the Portland SCG. After a decent start at 3-1 I ran into burn, Jund, UR delver, and URB delver (with md dack ) for my 3 losses.
I beat bug delver, jeskei delver, sneak and show, dead guy, and titan post.
Overall I was very impressed with my two main deck spellskites, and two sudden shock.
My sideboard 3 containment priest, 2 Kor firewalker, and hedge mage did some heavy lifting.
Overall I feel 3 firewalker is almost a must against most bad matchups. Moreover, with the inclusion of containment priest one plains should be included in the 75. This would let you play kor firewalker reliably and also let you hold up priest with moon effects out (extremely powerful). Lotus petals are not enough.
I tried out sphere of law in a 5 round Swiss yesterday, and definitely missed Kor Firewalker. I don't run Blood Moon against u/r or most matchups where firewalker or priest come in, so I haven't had any issue without a plains. If you are though, by all means try it out. I just feel like it'll screw you more often game 1 than is worth it.
I just had some games vs UR Delver and the new Ascendancy deck that Jack played against the other day (the opponent is actually Brad Nelson). I just have to say that it is ridiculous that with Cruise and ponder and probe and brainstorm, they can get through nearly half their deck by turn 7 with some consistency. And that's without even casting Ascendancy. I mean, does this mean that everyone should play blue in their decks. Wizards knows that more then 50% of the decks already playing Brainstorm/Ponder and Force. And they still went ahead with Dig and Cruise. Cant understand it especially when they are suppose to push creatures. Also introducing delve for some colors including blue seems rather strange. Was there a reason why there are no red delve cards?
I was just thinking, since wasteland is much less played and blood moon does not hurt us. Could we be playing 4 Taiga instead of 4 mountains. I have been testing this out with Choke in the sideboard. In many of the 3 colour decks with blue, Choke totally hoses them. Most of the blue 3 color decks will play pyromancer and bolts which gives them a out. Green also opens the deck to many interesting cards like nature end or krosan grip etc.
Both version of painter (Jack's and Ringo) is still competitive none the less. It just that it has become worse against the predominant decks in the current meta like Miracles (BEB/REB) and delvers/ascendancy decks. Looking at the current data, it seems these decks makes up at least 50% of the meta now in any competition. Add to the S&T and reanimator decks making up 15% of the rest of the meta, it seems like hosing blue is great right now. The clock now is also much faster. I have experienced UR Delver killing you in 3 turns with or without Tomb's help. Some of the latest feature games in SCG Legacy competition also shows it in action and dealing 20 damage by turn 3 if you do not have any disruption or creatures to block/kill their creatures.
On Firebolt vs Sudden Shock. Its a tough call. In cases like under a solid bridge, it can win you the game like Jack showed in his recent game vs D&T. On the other hand, I just beat D&T because I had sudden shock and not firebolt. If I had firebolt, there would not have been a way I could won my 2nd game as my opponent had Mother of Ruins to protect revoker and Needle in play. Sudden Shock allowed me to kill his revoker without protection and blast to kill needle.
Base on my testing so far on Assemble and Processor. I prefer Processor more. It easier to cast with the downside of loss of life. It does not get blast by BEB as well (Yupe it happened to me twice when I got to cast Assemble. Tough luck I guess). Its good that both do not get destroyed by Decay. Both dies to Wear/Tear which is a really popular card right now. I have also been testing Chandra again and prefer it to Koth due to it being able to kill most creature in the current meta, card advantage ability and buys you a turn or two as a "blocker".
Do note that UR Delver and Ascendancy decks plays with Kor Firewalker. They will bring it in for games 2 and 3 and we have no way of dealing with it short of bridge/painter. So bridge may still be needed vs these decks.
Since we may have to wait till the next banning cycle to determine how to settle on what to play, has anyone else been testing any new cards? Feldon? Dualcaster Mage? Wurmcoil Engine?
3 so your bridges lock out Angels, but not processor tokens. You CAN go up to 4 if you are certain you'll be able to play one card each turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Again, this is only for Miracles.
Edit: While I am answering a lot of these questions, I want to stress, this was not my idea. All credit should go to Ringo.
If you slam it early, 8-12 or 2 attacks is usually pretty good. I've paid 15 before, gotten swordsed, and then continued to create a 15/15 every turn and threaten the combo, which is pretty alright, haha.
Wouldn't it make more sense for you to use another wincon that doesn't die to artifact removal instead of trying to evade blue blasts? The deck suffers from artifact removal already so it will be bought in by ~every deck. Also, Null Rod.
Actually, I think the opposite. Taxing their artifact removal more heavily is an asset, given that the entire deck is threatening game ending artifacts and enchantments. Cutting the number is basically impossible, so having more effects that must be answered probably improves your chances, aka threat density. Part of Koth's issue is that before he attacked a different angle that was hard to deal with, but now being red is its own vulnerability in the format/matchup. Being an artifact, however, hasnt sustained any significant increase in vulnerability, as far as I can tell, and this is a deck that for all its artifact density, is not stone cold to Null Rod or the like at all. Additionally, Null Rod wouldn't be played in Miracles, which is the topic here.
The issue with processor is its limited application elsewhere. There aren't a lot of decks that you'd willingly pay a lot of life against. I think ultimately, it's a personal choice. I play against miracles constantly, so I'm comfortable running it. In a more open metagame, maybe Koth is what you want either instead or in addition.
I've been playing the monored version of Painter for a while now and been getting my ass handed to me by the notorious UR Delver/Cruise-decks. I have 2x Sudden Shocks in main and also 4-5 sweeps (pyrokinesis, volcanic fallout etc) in the sideboard but still the matchup seems almost impossible. Is the RW-version just better suited for this matchup or has anybody come up with something more efficient I could use against UR-decks in the monored build? Lately I've been thinking of trying one-off Silent Arbiter in the sideboard...
If the discussion is all about miracles, then by all means. Even then processor is pretty narrow but in the end it's all about your local metagame that dictates your choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by RingoDeathStarr
@Avez what in particular in the U/at Delver matchup is getting you down the most? Their card draw, cheap creatures, disruption? The best thing I've used against them is trinisphere. Plus having the SB cards you already do I think is enough and sometimes it is just a matter of luck wether or not they can recover from a fallout. From what I've seen the shortcake version isn't going to improve that matchup significantly except that it might combo a little sooner which is a good thing admittedly. I think just keep at it. It's not a great matchup but you can definitely win your fair share.
Is Lightning Greaves bad in this deck? My first thought is yes, considering the fact that they can just bolt/swords/decay your servant/welder in response to the equip. But with these cruise decks running around the "run them out of removal then go off" plan doesn't seem to be cutting it when they can refill their hand quickly. Lightning greaves also demands an immediate response, if they tap out you can welder-greaves for 3 mana or servant-greaves for 4.
Let's say you go for it early and they bolt the painter. You still have the constant threat on the board that demands they immediately remove any welder/servant you play. You dictate when they show their removal and you will know when they're out. They can't use any subsequent removal for the remainder of the game without a decay/smash to smithereens for the greaves.
It doesn't seem like an awful card in the current metagame, and giving welders haste in general is really good.
I actually tried this with and without cranial plating/etched Champion. At the end of the day, if you draw Lightning Greaves and have no creatures in play, it does nothing. Playing Painter for a while, I find that you need to have a constant threat on the board to win games. With Greaves on the board and no creatures, your opponent can plan their way around not letting you have creatures or that 3rd artifact. For this reason, I went the route of playing more planeswalker in my deck. Plainswalker need immediate attention and they can "block" as well. Many of the abilities will help you with your combo or card advantage. I now play with 1 Daretti, 2 Chandra and 1 Koth in my MB. Chandra is great card advantage when there is nothing on the board and in the current meta, her 1 damage to creatures and opponent is queen! Kills Pyromancers, tokens, delvers if they are not already on board etc. For UR delvers, I find that their life totals are not usually that great due to the many fetches and probes that they play. Sometimes you can almost race them if they have a creature light draw. I have won many of the games that I got Chandra on board. In the mid and late games, it can win you the game with top or fetch and using the exile ability to cast one more spell. Many players do have 1 BEB in the SB though so beware of that in the 2nd and 3rd game.Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkfrosting
Its good that we are all tweaking the deck due to changes in the current meta. There are days like I wish to switch decks. But there are days like yesterday where I only lost 1 game in 7 I played. Thats to Ascendancy. Beat lands, Painter, UR Delver Twice and reanimator and Chalice/Affinty deck.
So upon watching Kapn's stream last night and some further deliberation, I think I'm back off the RIP/Helm combo again. Don't get me wrong, I certainly see it's merit, and the splash damage that RIP does (ie Cruise) is worth something. I just really hate trying to bring in another 2 card combo from my S.B. to try to win the game. Now coming from a guy who crammed painter combo into the S.B. of dredge a couple years ago, I should be the last person to say this. But our opponent is already setting up to try to disrupt a two card combo, so trying to pull off another one with less redundancy (can't protect RIPs or search them out with recruiters) just seems futile. My biggest problem with this strategy is the schizophrenic feel I get from trying to play both combos. Jack had a game where he had one tutor and one piece of each combo in his hand. Which one do you go for? It just strands the other piece in your hand. RIP also shuts off welders and Daretti, which is another problem for us, again illustrated in one of Jack's last games where the Miracle opponent's RIP shut off Jack's welder. I do like the idea of an alt. win condition but I would much rather it just be a one card hay-maker like koth or phyrexian processor.
So, what qualities do we want for our hay-maker then?
1. We kinda want to avoid making it red, due to the current popularity of hydroblast.
2. it's gotta be good against control decks, ie Miracles and also be out of of the typical 1-2-3 curve of counterbalance
3. probably not a creature. Possibly not terrible if it were hexproof but still dies to terminus
4. pros and cons of artifact/enchantment vs planeswalker = searchable with tutor vs more resilient against the likely hate coming in from the opponent (wear/tear primarily)
Some possibilities... of course phyrexian processor, luminarch ascension (slow), heliod (hard to deal with but also slow), elspeth (not tutorable), anything else? Although people will be bringing in artifact hate against us, I'm not so worried about that as, like stated above, we will probably be overwhelming their hate. We can also recur it with welder/Daretti, which I think is a big plus. This makes Hammer of Purphoros a possibility. I also like the haste feature. I just really don't like killing my lands. Batterskull isn't terrible either as it is also kinda hard to deal with and the life gain is nice against other MUs. I played with it a while though and it just didn't feel like it did enough. I almost considered splashing blue so I could play a Keranos. It's a win con; it kills opponents creatures/Jaces, and it can be card advantage. Not to mention it's indestructible. I really like that card, but I just can't get myself to play a third color for one card.
As of right now I'm leaning toward processor, but it's such a narrow card that it feels not worth a precious slot in our S.B.. For this reason I do like Assemble the Legion because it can come in in other matches to make infinite blockers and eventually take over a game. It's just hard to protect. I don't know. Come on WoTC, give us a good hay-maker. (end of rant)
Was the stream saved?
don't know, you would have to check his twitch page.
Rant #2: I'm moving magus to the S.B. I know I've been all about keep your blood moons in against decks like UR delver, but Magus is a different story. There aren't a ton of MUs that he's good in right now. Why? LIGHTNING BOLT! Even the Jeskai decks that you could shut off a couple colors with a moon effect, they run bolt to just answer him too easily. He's really only good against non-red 3 color decks and 12 post/MUD. Thus, he is getting the boot from the main, and in my case, to make room for the 7th blast. I definitely agree with Kapn on this one. Blue is so pervasive right now that 7 blasts main are probably where we want to be. Anyway, again just trying to mold this deck to the current meta. All thoughts welcome.
I remember a year ago this time shaving magus down to 2 and feeling terrible about it. Things have changed a shit ton. Just goes to show. ..
Is the 7th blast or a 2nd/3rd sweeper better?
With moving Magus to the side, are you planning on running two still?
Also as much as I have been trying to make RIP/helm work, I've found that it can work pretty reliably. That being said I do not feel it is right. The first main problem is that I'm taking up a 3rd of my SB for a few matches. The second is what Ringo said, a lot of times you just don't know what peice you need to tutor for.
I took R/W Painter to GP Baltimore for the Legacy Showdown event and went 2-1-1 (I dropped in the fifth round to catch my train home) I haven't used the deck in a while and was rather satisfied with my results.
Main Deck (60)
Creatures (18)
2 Goblin Welder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spellskite
4 Painter's Servant
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Spells (22)
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
4 Pyroblast
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Lands (20)
1 Great Furnace
1 Plains
2 Plateau
3 Arid Mesa
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
5 Mountain
Sideboard (15)
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Pyroclasm
2 Rest in Peace
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Koth of the Hammer
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Assemble the Legion
Round 1 Burn
G1 I go first and do a turn 1 blood moon. He didn't seem too particularly phased so I figured he was on burn. Then lo and behold he drops a goblin guide. I tutor up for painter servants and he uses up his burn spells to kill two more of them. I saved two vindicates in my hand when I had the last one online to counter any more burn at it. I proceeded two turns later to go for the combo kill.
-4 Blood Moon - 1 Magus of the Moon +4 Leyline of Sanctity +1 Circle of Protection Red
G2 Turn 2 Combo Kill and that's all folks. Also Opening of Leyline
Round 2 Maverick
G1 I get wastelanded very fast. I had enough mana to combo out on turn 4 but he uses a Quasali Pridemage to blow my grindstone up so I'm left with a Painters servant. I manage to get ensnaring bridge online but brings in a Scrib Ranger and attacks under it with Jitte and kills me. The ensnaring bridge caused this match to go on for about 30 minutes. The whole time I was staring down a 9/9 KotR in fear.
-1 REB -1 SSG -1 Enlightened Tutor +1 RiP +1 Helm of Obedience +1 Assemble the Legion
G2 I jam down ensnaring bridge on turn 3. He blew up two of my grindstones and Krosan Gripped my top. I get blood moon online causing him to get out of white mana. The next turn I get Jaya and Painter's servant online. Jaya let me go hellbent so he couldn't attack with Mom, Batterskull, or KotR. He drops down a basic plains but has no STP, so I decide to vindicate that and hedge my chances. It was basically a topdeck war until I got the grindstone. If he got a STP it would have been very ugly that matchup.
G3 It immediately started on turns while I started my first turn. I made the mistake of keeping a slow hand more on defense. He GSZ'd for a arbor he accidentally dropped a card revealing a Jitte. I ended up just putting a spellskite to stall and it ends there.
Round 3 Zombardment
I've never faced this deck at all so I had no idea what I was dealing with
G1 I get painter online but with no grindstone in sight. So I get this huge manabase I end up using Chandra +1'ing to kill his zombies and whenever the field was clear using the 0 ability to help me get cards. Eventually Chandra lands me the grindstone for the kill.
-4 Blood Moon -1 Magus of the Moon +2 Rest in Peace +1 Helm of Obedience +1 Assemble the Legion
G2 I win on Turn 4 after he beats my face in until 3 life.
Round 4 ...some odd Landsish Deck?
G1 I blood moon and get painter online. My opponent then casts devestating dreams kills my painter and my manabase. I somehow recover from this and get ensnaring bridge online. However since he had a chalice on 1 I couldn't really do crap and I had 6 cards in hand allowing his Titania to beat my face in.
G2 Turn 3 Marit Lage. My mistake was to put painter's servant in first and nuke his dark depths. Little did I know he had another one in hand and comboed out. I should have done the turn 2 blood moon. But oh well.
Thoughts:
Lately enlightened tutor has been a dead card for me. Maybe I don't have enough white mana sources.
Jaya might be slow but it's one of the best ways I can go hellbent. It will always deserve a slot to me as long as I run Ensnaring Bridge mainboarded
In a test matchup with burn. Leyline of Sanctity isn't what it used to be, burn has too many critters. I tried dragon claw before but it wasn't enough even when I put painter on Red. WW on Kor Firewalker is too painful to do and CoP Red is a manasink.