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If your list is that posted on page 143, I'd maybe swap 2 waste for +1land+1bowl and stick crucible to the sb (instead of fof), thus finding room for shackles. (And i'd probably drop the decrees for +1 jace +1 something I don't know right now, but that's another question :tongue: ).
I have to disagree with cutting Decree of Justice. It's the best win condition in the deck. Elspeth is usually faster and more inevitable, but DoJ is often better because that you can cycle it under Standstill and through opposing countermagic. It's also much better on defense. The deck would lose too much versatility by cutting Decree and I, for one, would advise against it.
This. DoJ is one of the rare cards in the deck I cut in absolutely zero matchups. It's my late game bomb that digs and stalls at the same time, all at instant speed and uncounterable. Plus, it works with my draw engine. I'd never run more, or less, than two of these bad boys. Same with Elspeth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
Shackles is probably a better MB slot than crucible right now, but it still doesn't do it for me for whatever reason. I guess that's just going to have to be my meta slot and could swing wither way depending on whether or not I expect to see tribal aggo or countertop.dec/landstill all day. I still want another draw spell, but at the moment that's going to have to take a back seat to fitting in both of the 3cc artifacts somewhere between MB and SB.
The place I feel it's most likely to fit into my 75 right now is in place of P2E#3, and getting moved MB for crucible.
EE@0 then standstill, and bye to your doj. I don't understand why you guys continue to run doj + waste and then run 3 standstill. If you play doj, then by all means play 4 standstill, this is THE draw engine of the deck. However, I agree that doj is a strong card, but I'm fine to play without (if the meta is really controllish, though, doj is welcome!).
However...
http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tc...wm1w1y9_EN.jpg
Fetch go. Land go. eot fetch. Sure, and after fetch resolves, put 1/5 of your deck in the grave...Thoughts?
Think about how many times you'll draw that card and wish it was something else...
Milling your opponent contributes nothing to your game plan. If you're staring down an unfavorable board position, this card sucks. If you have a favorable board position, this card does absolutely nothing for you. It's a cute trick but not nearly good enough to replace any of the standard utility spells in Landstill.
It doesn't even matter against us... It just makes crucible and academy ruins a little better. If aggro wants to waste a card milling me, they should feel free. All in all, interesting but I think useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
And I WANT standstill#4. Badly. Probably over Jace, honestly.
If this is yuor list:Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
If I were you (and of course, I'm not :laugh: ), I'd play:Quote:
4 STP
3 EE
2 WOG
1 Humility
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
4 FOW
3 Brainstorm
3 SDT
3 Standstill
2 DoJ
2 Elsbitch
2 Wish
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Strand
2 Delta
4 tundra
1 sea
1 scrub
3 island
2 plains
2 waste
3 factory
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins
SB:
3 CB
3 E. Plague
2 Relic
2 P2E
1 Negate
1 E. Tutor
1 FoF
1 Extirpate
1 Pulse of the Fields
-1 crucible
+1 shackles
-1 tolaria west
+1 mishra's factory
-2 wasteland
+1 dust bowl
+1 other land (tolaria again? another plains? another dual?)
Or maybe going down to 23 lands (tolaria is more a spell, than a land, from my point of view) and find room for that 4th standstill/1 fof.
Sb you could go -1 pte (shackles acts as that missing path) and find a spot for a sb crucible, if you wish. and also take out 1 fof for, say, another counterbalance or another relic, or another plague (shouldn't be needed though). It's really hard to find spots in this list, it's seems solid enough. Or just saving that pte slot for shackles, so you could swap the 3cc artifacts in&out as the field requires. My point is that maybe, moving crucible sb, you can just adjust the manabase (+1 mishra +1 bowl) and find room for standstill in the slot of tolaria west. (The point is: do you really want tolaria in the place of the 4th standstill? because as far as I can see, this is the contended slot, I'd never remove anything else...)
rsaunder: if you make gustha's recommended manabase changes (with the "other land" being a Plains) then you'll have the manabase I've been using. Dust Bowl is nice because it let's you run 4 Factory while keeping your colorless land count at 6. Obviously you draw it less than multiple Wastelands, but you're only going from 2 to 1 anyway.
Your mainboard is only 4 cards off from mine too:
-1 EE, -1 Humility, +2 Vindicate
-1 Counterspell, +1 Brainstorm
-1 Crucible, +1 Standstill
I based mine off the list Wasteland (Marius) posted a few pages back (link)
You're probably right, Tolaria is an awful land, but I hate to drop below 24 sources. 23+Crucible or 23+E. Dragon are both acceptable, but I don't want to drop either wasteland. I've won far too many games off of wasteland to cut them, they're way better under standstill than dust bowl and way better than mishra's factory quite a bit of the time. In fact, if I were to work on solidifying the manabase a little (i.e. freeing up a slot), I'd probably cut both ruins and TW for another wasteland and the free slot. This, I feel absolutely justifies MB crucible over shackles (thus they go into the board in place of P2E#3). Also, with the 3 top/3 brainstorm cantrip base, I feel even more comfortable cutting my worst land. So, after these tweaks:
1 humility
2 WoG
3 EE
4 STP
4 FoW
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 SDT
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
1 Jace/Standstill (Leaning towards standstill, it helps the CB curve)
2 DoJ
2 Els
2 Wish
1 Crucible (could be shackles is a specific meta)
2 Waste
3 Factory
4 Strand
2 Delta (one will probably be a b/w fetch eventually...maybe)
4 Tundra
1 Sea
1 Scrub
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Plains/Waste
SB:
3 CB
3 Plague
2 P2E
1 Negate
1 R2D
1 Extirpate
1 Shackles
1 Pulse
1 FoF
1 E. Tutor
I'll give the manabase you guys are suggesting a shot, probably with shackles MB in the crucible slot because that seems to be the common consensus, and if I'm not running wasteland, it makes all the sense in the world. I don't like the untutorable 1-of lands, especially when they're so situational to begin with, but we'll see how it runs both ways. As for the board, FoF and R2D will be my first cuts for more counterbalance/extirpate but right now I don't think either is necessary. Tim and testing will tell and thanks for the feedback!
Some more numbers: The MB curve looks like:
1cc: 13
2cc: 7 (minimum of 10 post-board in matchups where CB comes in)
3cc: 3
4cc: 7
5cc: 4
I like this, though the 4th CB could come in to up my 2cc count to 12 post board in the combo matchup.
So, the following is my Landstill list, I think it's quite decent, overall. I would like any feedback that you all have, as I know for a fact a lot of you are better at playing this deck than I am.
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
4x Tundra
2x Island
2x Plains
2x Plateau
1x Volcanic Island
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Academy Ruins
3x Jace Beleren
2x Elspeth
2x Ajani Vengeant
4x Standstill
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Wrath of God
3x Brainstorm
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Cunning Wish
1x Nevinyrral's Disk
SB:
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Path to Exile
1x Lightning Helix
2x Negate
2x Firespout
3x Fire/Ice
4x Relic of Progenitus
One thing I know for sure is that I am unwilling to play Counterbalance, be it in the side or the main. I've always found it to be pointless for Landstill to play it. Yes, it provides CA. Yes, it makes the combo matchup even better than it already is. It has a lot of good things going for it, which is why it's a good card, and they have decks built around it.
The problem with playing it in Landstill is that we have no clock. Our opponents aren't pressured to find solutions to resolved threats, and this generally means they can play around Counterbalance without that much difficulty. Counterbalance is only really good when you can convince your opponent it's worth gambling that you don't have a one or two-drop in your top three cards to, for instance, get rid of a Tarmogoyf. Otherwise it's just another CA engine, one that can be played around and doesn't deal with resolved threats.
That being said, all other suggestions are welcome. Keep in mind that I'm expecting a rather aggro-heavy meta in my area, especially after Zendikar comes out.
Answer me one question: In what instance will you ever wish for lightning helix? Why not just run volcanic fallout instead of fire/ice plus its better and you don't have to worry about BEB,Daze,Force,Cursecatcher...
Helix is good, I can se it being path#3 and not a simple wishable 1-of. If he planned to gain some life, wish for pulse is certain far more good. Helix comes in in Mu's in which path comes in, it's basically as the first attack never succeded. So that slot could be path as well, but it's not completely wrong to have this split, though it may seem a little random at first sight.
The things that upset me, are:
-you use red, but not reb....
-you use red, but run firespout in the board, as well as a total of 5 wrath effects? isn't it a bit overkill?
I have to agree with Hanni on this one I think countertop works wonders in UW Landstill. I ditched Cunning Wish and some bulk and went for the best cards. I matched against some ichord combo and did extremely well. That's one of the ones I was worried about. But recurring wastes then countertop set to one stops breakthroughs and many discard outlets. since there is no GB for deed, UW builds often can EE a specific number. Anyways EE can often be cheaper, like VS. Ichord and tokens. The reason for the seclusion of WOG is I thought its really not as fast as EE and EE and STP can sweep faster and not get dazed as easily. I also think Oblivion Rings are important in the current environment, Wizards is only printing more great plains walkers.
land 24
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
spells
2 Elspeth, Knight-errant
1 Decree of Justice
4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 STP
4 SDT
4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
2 Standstill
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Oblivian Ring
2 EE
side
4 Engineered Plague
4 Wheel of sun and Moon
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Meddling Mage
I play similar UWr Planeswalker still, and here's what:Quote:
Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo
by all means 2x Volcanic + 1x Plateau is better than 1x Volcanic + 2x Plateau. Simply because Deltas can't fetch Plateaus and you need more blue sources than white sources.
Personally, I run 2/2/2 PW split, and think 3xJace is overdo. Matter of taste probably. If you're in aggro heavy meta, you should play more targeted removal (be it F/I - it isn't S/B card or PtE) and Spell Snares. While you still can live on 4 swords with 4 'Wrath' effects (additional targeted removal is not absolutely necessary), without Snares its almost impossible. I just can't understand why people cut this card.
Also, guess 4x Counterspell is too many. There are a lot of permanents and mana hungry top, you often fetch for basic plains on turn2. Overall, it loses a great bit of effectiveness when you're tapped out. Most people play 3.
S/B looks rather bad. Where do you need 4 Relics? F/I is not really sideboard card.
That is something I had not thought about at all. I guess I'd better look into it.Quote:
-you use red, but not reb....
Possibly. I like never having a problem with swarms of creatures, though.Quote:
-you use red, but run firespout in the board, as well as a total of 5 wrath effects? isn't it a bit overkill?
I like my hard counters, and the deck does a good job of taking care of things that resolve early.Quote:
Also, guess 4x Counterspell is too many.
MY SB is always bad. However, I do absolutely need all four Relics. Fire/Ice is currently there because I tested it and liked it, but couldn't figure out what to cut for it.Quote:
S/B looks rather bad.
HPB_Eggo
How do you not think about R.E.B when you consider red as a splash in a control deck? Also the red tempo splash should probably go in the Ultimate Walker thread where that concept comes from. The fine people there can give you help and advice that we probably won't be able to help you with.Quote:
That is something I had not thought about at all. I guess I'd better look into it.
Saying this means you haven't tested that archtype well enough yet. The focus of that deck is it splashes red to not get hozed by the control decks and also plays red to be able to handle threats that the black splash can't handle as easy. This is the second reasoning why I think you should go to the Ultimate Walker thread.Quote:
Possibly. I like never having a problem with swarms of creatures, though.
4 Counter spell is absolutely obsolete in land-still and isn't played in Ultimate Walker because the deck also attempts to get around playing cards with C.C. 2. Because of this Ultimate Walker plays Forbid (Or at least did last I knew.) All of this thirdly indicates that you need to further test against more of the meta-game.Quote:
I like my hard counters, and the deck does a good job of taking care of things that resolve early.
Your sideboard should never be bad. It should always address specific problems that your main deck cannot handle.Quote:
MY SB is always bad.
Why? Does your meta-game have obscenely high graveyard based decks like ichorid, thrash. If so then completely understood, but if you just generally fear graveyard shenanigans relax.Quote:
However, I do absolutely need all four Relics.
This deck is aggro control overkill. This isn't 2005 it's 2009. The idea isn't to overkill the control match up, it's to beat the meta-game of aggro, aggro control, combo, and tempo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by memnarch
Play test the zoo, thrash, and basically anything that puts you on a clock and I think your going to understand where I am coming from. You also might consider testing white splash thresh then coming back to land-still to get an idea of what your doing. But as for now your decks utility land mess, mixed with 4x counterbalance in the main-deck and 4x counter spell.
I'm really quite good at forgetting things, especially when I'm first trying another color in an old build.Quote:
How do you not think about R.E.B when you consider red as a splash in a control deck?
Just because the deck splashes red does not make it Ultimate Walker.Quote:
Also the red tempo splash should probably go in the Ultimate Walker thread where that concept comes from.
That's simply not true. I've played UW Landstill forever(not including any part of forever longer than six years ago), and I'm trying the red splash specifically for Ajani Vengeant and Lightning Helix, to help shore up matches like Burn and Zoo. Firespout came in because it's good against Ichorid and Tribal, and Fire/Ice is something I'm still testing to see whether it's worth using.Quote:
Saying this means you haven't tested that archtype well enough yet. The focus of that deck is it splashes red to not get hozed by the control decks and also plays red to be able to handle threats that the black splash can't handle as easy.
In short, I didn't splash to hose control, although I could see where a lot of people would do that. REB/Pyroblast will probably end up replacing Negate and Fire/Ice in my SB, because they're good against a great number of decks, but that will be the extent of my use of red when it comes to attempting to "not get hozed by control decks."
I'm going to just flat-out disagree with you here. Spell Snare does not do what Landstill needs it to do, i.e. be ready to counter anything we aren't prepared to deal with. Daze won't work later in the game, and Mana Leak is nearly as bad. Forbid costs three and it's buyback cost is prohibitive.Quote:
4 Counter spell is absolutely obsolete in land-still and isn't played in Ultimate Walker because the deck also attempts to get around playing cards with C.C. 2. Because of this Ultimate Walker plays Forbid (Or at least did last I knew.) All of this thirdly indicates that you need to further test against more of the meta-game.
I've tested every replacement for Counterspell that has been suggested to me, and none of them fill the slot as well. My apologies if this doesn't fit into your view of the deck, but that's simply the way it's worked out for me.
Thank you for pointing this out. I think we can all agree that anyone who doesn't know this should be retaught how to play Magic...Quote:
Your sideboard should never be bad. It should always address specific problems that your main deck cannot handle.
There is an awful lot of Ichorid in my meta. It also helps a lot against Loam, which is around sometimes, and anything that runs 'goyf, i.e. a large portion of the good decks in the format.Quote:
Why? Does your meta-game have obscenely high graveyard based decks like ichorid, thrash. If so then completely understood, but if you just generally fear graveyard shenanigans relax.
Counterspell doesn't deserve 4 slots anymore. It's a mid-game permission spell, which is an absolutely critical role, but that means that 4 is the wrong number. I run 3 (as does Moss and everyone else, I think) alongside 3 spell snares. Even ultimate walker (which is what you're playing) runs spell snares because the whole effing format revolves around 2cc cards.
The inclusion of red and Ajani doesn't make the deck that other "Ultimate Walker". Or saying it the other way, being "Ultimate Walker" doesn't make it less Landstill. My deck is like 5 cards off UWb I used to run previously. Name it Ultimate Walker or Walkerstill, its still what this thread is about - UWx Landstill. Now that one with Ancestral Visions and Forbid is a different story.