I believe you missed the 2 Birthing Pods in that list as well as the Taiga, Tropical Islands and Underground Seas in the manabase :wink:.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBell
You were looking at a BUG Pod Fit list, not a Junk (non-Pod) Fit list.
Printable View
I believe you missed the 2 Birthing Pods in that list as well as the Taiga, Tropical Islands and Underground Seas in the manabase :wink:.Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBell
You were looking at a BUG Pod Fit list, not a Junk (non-Pod) Fit list.
Everyone is simply declaring rhino dead and moving on but to what? this enchantment centric version that you claim isn't enchantress because it doesn't play a card with that in its name, you can only be so enchantress with nic fit elements until you are just the worst parts of each archetype. Miracles is a large part of the meta but losing faith in the deck because of the lackluster matchup isn't correct, adaptation is key. Your entire post was saturated with negative connotation of which does nothing to help your cause nor your argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysse95
Instead of Eldrazi Temple, what about good ole' Ancient Tomb? It helps accelerate not only TKS and Smasher, but also some of the other high end stuff, even like GSZ, Thragtusk, Titania, helps with firing off Deed for when you need to hit 4-5, Karn/other planeswalkers. Might even open up options for T1 Chalice from the side against the decks that we are already planning on taking out Vet and Therapy...Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Trouble is that it is even more of a headache against Burn, and multiples are clunky. And you have to actively keep out a lot of creatures and stuff with a 1 in the generic cost in order to further reduce clunkiness.
We've looked in depth at Academy Rector options several times in the thread before. We've spent time looking at Humility, Primeval Bounty, and Collective Blessing. We haven't gotten particularly far with it, but more people agreed that there was potentially something there. Ulysse95 brought up Starfield of Nyx, and did so while mentioning that he's been playtesting with the list. Maybe you shouldn't be dismissing the possibility of there being something there when we've spent significantly more time working on other deck builds and plans which haven't put up any results whatsoever, like The Gitrog Monster (which hasn't been in any lists with good results as far as I am aware).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
The list generally plays all the trappings of Nic Fit (Explorer, Zenith, Therapy, Deed). The choices which aren't common to some number of other lists are:
- Rector and Liliana, which see play elsewhere - the previous page has an Academy Rector list on it with Recycle as a target.
- 2 Grove and 2 Starfield as tutor + wincon
- Some enchantment type removal rather than instant/sorcery for synergy
- 2 Utility tutor targets in Martyr's Cause and Humility
- A couple other enchantment wincons, which are interchangable and even the poster agrees are probably being greedy.
I don't think that a change of two finisher cards and two filtering cards, plus swapping a couple removal spells for ones with more synergy, really constitutes such a divergence from regular Nic Fit. Particularly when the poster has actually been playtesting the list for a couple months and considers it at least semi playable.
--------------------
GB<> Ramp
--------------------
4 Veteren
2 Sakura-Tribe
1 Tireless Tracker
1 E.Wit
1 Fierce Empath
3 Thought-Knot
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Endbringer
1 Ulamog, Ceaseless
4 Therapy
3 Zenith
3 Living Wish
1 Ugin
2 Deed
1 Deluge
2 Decay
3 Top
2 Painful Truths
4 Glimmerpost
2 Cloudpost
1 Karakas
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
4 Verdant
2 Heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
sb::
3 Surgical
2 Tsunami
2 Canonist
1 Thought-Knot
1 Kozilek, Distortion
1 Platinum Angel
1 Reality Smasher
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Eugene
1 RecSage
--------------------
GB<> Midrange
--------------------
4 Veteran
2 Sakura-Tribe
1 Fierce Empath
1 E.Wit
1 Tireless
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Thought-Knot
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval
1 Ulamog, Ceaseless
1 Kozilek, Distortion
4 Therapy
3 Zenith
2 Deed
1 Deluge
4 Path to Exile
3 Top
2 P.Truths
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Eye
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Wastes
4 Verdant
2 Heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
sb::
2 Tsunami
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Platinum Angel
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Trinisphere
1 Deluge
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
--------------------
GBW Control
--------------------
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Gitrog
1 DL Dromoka
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Batterskull
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Painful Truths
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant
4 Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gaze of Granite
2 Tsunami
1 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Krosan Grip
--------------------
Couple updated lists. Tuning and narrowing down options. I'm going to be playing something close to one of these tomorrow at Mythic, and then I'll try to figure out wtf I want to do for Columbus from there.
Hi guys!
For a BG midrange, I am actually testing this (from the thread Nic Feat 8Post http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...t-8Post/page12):
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Bayou
4 Llanowar wastes
4 Forest
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Reality Smasher
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Matter Reshaper
3 Primeval Titan
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
With regards to 3-colour lists with Colorless for Thought-knot, has anyone tried putting him into BUG? I know that BUG builds already have similar solutions to the same problems in Glen Elendra Archmage, but the beatdown potential of Thought-Knot could speed up the otherwise anemic game-ending abilities of the blue builds.
@Arianrhod
In the GB<> Midrange list, do you think a Tasigur might be worth it? You are running Empath, so having an immediately castable target seems useful.
In the GBW control list, do you really need all those wincons? I'd be tempted to say at least a few of them could be swapped for more interaction or filtering to make the deck less top-heavy, maybe leaving one of the 4-drops (Meren IMO, since you don't run Arbor or Nightmare) for another Deed/Deluge to capitalise on your walkers and fatties?
A super sweeeet thing you can do with Starfield against miracles for example is once your starfield animates your enchantments so you can attack, if they terminus you can sac your pernicious deed to de-animate the rest of your enchantments and then just try attacking again next turn. I've always been curious about enchantments because like equipment they don't die to a lot and DRS can't exile them from graveyard (real useful when using eternal witness..) so Starfield could do a lot as a finisher. I am interested in this builds progression, after more testing I'd like to see an updated list so I can start tinkering with it on cockatrice.
I always try and full back on a Helm of Obedience / Leyline version, but it always fails miserably haha
Anyways, @Navsi! Sideboard plans is what I want to discuss most on this forum really, so thanks :)
I'd argue our sideboard plan is pretty similar. Cut do nothing removal and the vet/therapy plan, add some relevant disruption and some more ways to pull ahead. We just differ in how much we do those things and our card choice for them, which is very interesting and I'm hoping I/we can learn something to improve our decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
For reference my deck at the moment:
61/15
22 lands + Abor, T1: 14G 13B 13W Total: 16G 13B 15W not including Abor
4 Verdant
4 Windswept
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas/Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Gsun
1 D Abor
4 Vet
1 DRS
1 E wit
1 Tracker
1 Meren
1 Swagtusk
1 Sigarda
3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK
3 Top
4 Therapy
2 TS
3 Stp
3 Decay
3 Deed
SB:
2 Needle
2 Surg -.- Must use more carefully -.-
2 TS
2 Spirit of Laby/ Abeyance
1-2 Teeg (Depends on if I have eng plague below)
1 Rec Sage
0-1 Eng Plague
2 Deluge
2 Card advantage, currently 1 Sorin 1 Skeletal scrying
My board plan against miracles:
-4 Vet -4 Therapy -3 Stp
+2 Needle +2 TS +2 Spirit / Abeyance +1 Teeg +1 Rec Sage +2 Card advantage, if my board has 2nd teeg than 2nd teeg is 11th card, if not then I add an Eng Plague if they have monks or a Surgical Ext otherwise.
I don't agree with cutting Jitte. It is a threat that like other equipment turns any of your creatures into a quick clock. Plus it can answer mentor and take out random annoying creatures the deck plays (Snap, clique, venser, lavamancer etc)
Okay, lets make something clear first, TS is better with surgical extraction than Cabal therapy is because it is guaranteed to hit something and therapy isnt. Also having 4 discard spells post board is much better with surgical extraction than 2 discard spells. So I'm not too keen on your plan regardless of if surgical extraction is good or not. I don't like therapy because I don' think that any SFM is unneeded. A SFM in play is a threat that they have to answer; I would rather them have to spend mana and answer it than me sacrifice it to a therapy that didn't necessarily hit something on its first cast which would have been a TS and be guaranteed to take whatever was most dangerous in their hand to begin with and keep my SFM to equip with or make future equipments uncounterable etc *breathes* TS is significantly better at clearing the way compared to therapy because you can't miss. Maybe they don't have counter spell or FoW or Jace but they have StP.. As I don't like therapy in the match or the veteran plan I cut them all (i'd rather them use their top and cantrips to find land than answers), I replace them with the 4 TS which I love in the early, mid and late turns.Quote:
I'm keeping with 2 Therapy and 0 Thoughtseize post-side, rather than your 0 Therapy 4 Thoughtseize. I've found that generally they both achieve the same effect against miracles (clear out counterspells so you can resolve a haymaker) but Therapy has additional synergy with the tokens and unneeded Stoneforges we have, along with Surgical.
Fair enough. Again odd that you mention therapy as if it's better than other discard in this spot, especially as you have TS in your list too. I'm kind of curious about surgical extraction, I get how it could be good. I just feel like I wouldn't want to draw two in one game, so I'd only side in one. But if it is as good as you say it is then they will replace my spirit/abeyance slot and thats quite exciting because those two cards can then become something else. Have you had much experience casting it against miracles? I will give this a go because I would be great if it worked, thanks :)Quote:
I really like Surgical Extraction against Miracles - while it doesn't completely disable the deck (see Slaughter Games discussion) it does do a lot of scary things, particularly when we're running Therapy and when we're playing so many Must-Force spells. Even just taking Terminus or Force or Swords is very strong, getting them to shuffle at times when they've stacked their deck is really powerful too.
At the moment I'm running 22 lands and 2 mana dorks plus the 3 tops to search for more, though I've run 21 land, 2 dorks and 3 tops for a long time and really haven't had much issue slamming down sorin against miracles. I do like STE but miracles is the only reason I would play him, so that isn't enough for me at the moment. Carpet of flowers is cool, but since we are playing threats at CMC 2 and up, I haven't really found an issue in just hitting land drops and curving out.Quote:
I don't know if Sorin & Scrying are a good idea when you're cutting all the Veteran Explorers - you only have 21 lands and no ramp cards, casting 6-drops and big X spells feels pretty hopeful. I get that the game goes long, but our haymakers are a lot better when we cast them before turn eight. I'm keeping one Vet to Zenith up if I need the mana asap / something to Therapy off right now, and still have a Sakura-Tribe Elder to work with as well. Carpet of Flowers does a lot of work.
You must have misread something I wrote, no worries, post board I have 4 TS 3 decays 3 deed 1 ewit 1 jitte 2 needles and sometimes an Eng Plague to answer Miracles threats.Quote:
I keep in Decay just because most players keep counterbalance in in my experience - but also if I side out both Swords/Path and Abrupt Decay, I am very thin on the ground in answers to Monastery Mentor. Post-sideboard you are pretty much on Deed, Thoughtseize and that's it for answers to the stupid monk, and that really worries me.
I had a similar opinion a while ago, but then miracles players stopped boarding RIP against me (dumb idea anyway) and I noticed that despite StP and Terminus I would end up with some powerful creatures in my graveyard. They get FoW'd or counter spelled (can't always have the TS), mainly SFM, Ewit or Teeg but others too of course. So just being a creature that also returns another powerful creatures is pretty great. They have to answer her and you get another threat. You can also pyrexian tower your own creatures in response to StP and you can protect your own legendary creatures like Meren and Sigarda using your own Karakas which can be great. That said if they have they are on the legendary build then Meren is a no no. Finally in the few games I tested Sylvan Safekeep, I established Safekeeper + Meren + Dryad Abor + Teeg against miracles. Think that through for a second haha. They eventually found council's judgment (why I ended up leaning towards 2 teeg instead) but the damage had been done and I still won that game.Quote:
I'm also surprised you don't take Meren out against Miracles, she seems pretty uninspiring there - I guess she demands a 1 for 1 trade immediately but that still seems to be playing into their game plan more than into ours.
I'm not bothered about Jitte, but agreed, I often also bring in Needle against D&T to shut down their Ports so I can cast my sweepers. And yes against White eldrazi, displacer is a kick in the nuts. So agreed there too.Quote:
All the other matchups look pretty much the same as I would go for, running ZP as Deluge where relevant. I'd be tempted to run Needle in the D&T and Eldrazi matchups for Vial/Mom/equipment and Endbringer/Displacer/equipment. Generally I always put it in against decks that run Jitte. Against Shardless ZP isn't as relevant as Deluge so I'd probably keep some Therapy in or add in Carpet to overrun them with threats / Deed faster.
In conclusion, my game plan against miracles is to curve out and make sure every card in my deck has an immediate impact on the game (why im so hesitant on extraction (but I will try it) and why I don't like therapy/vet)
The man lands are a new addition to help with mulliganing, flooding and closing the game in all matchups, and also for blocking fliers and to give me some uncounterable threats to up my density against miracles. I modelled my mana base on shardless, 22 lands with 2 tar pits. I cut all their and an exrtra fetch wastelands for the extra basics and my 2 other utility lands.
Look forward to hearing (seeing?) your thoughts and I am keen on testing cutting the abor for a planeswalker and maybe changing the meren to a Thrun
@Jain_Mor
I'm curious to hear how the Wildwoods go! Seems like a solid idea.
I think the SFM lists appeal to me most. I'm trying something closer to @Plm's list with Lingering Souls and reduced GSZ count (down to 2). Actually put Teeg in my main since the only thing he shuts off is 2 GSZ and hardcast Batterskull. Was able to win game 1 against Storm last night thanks to that guy being available. Actually went 2-0 in the league so far against Storm and Sneak/Show which was thanks to some crazy draws/luck.
Do most people here recommend 22 lands nowadays? Is 21 more ok if you have access to 2+ Deathrites? I'm leaning towards being greedy with my list. GSZ shaved in order to have 1 Painful Truths and Teeg main, with 21 lands.
I don't like Tasigur in general -- I played him a bunch in Grixis Control when Cruise and Dig were around (or rather, when just Dig was...I think Cruise was banned already). He never, ever, not even once impressed me. I realize that that's a different deck than this is, but I think that most of his problems are the same here as they were there. Card's great in vintage...but realistically I just don't think he has what it takes to be playable in legacy, unless you're doing something cheesy with him and Birthing Pod (which I do think is reasonable).Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
For GBW, I don't actually have all that many. I still need to be able to close the game once its under control -- without Rhino in the deck, we don't have as much lifegain as we used to (this is something I'm actually very concerned about...we still have Truths and the 1 Deluge, but we only have 1 Tusk to on-demand compensate).
9 ramp (Vet + Sakura + 4 Zenith)
19 interaction (9 removal + Garruk R + Master of WH + 4 Zenith + 4 Therapy)
15 closer (8 creatures + 2 pw + Bskull + 4 Zenith)
13 manipulation/CA (E.Wit + Tracker + Meren + Gitrog + 4 Zenith + 2 Truths + 2 Top + Library)
16G 13.5B 14W
It's possible that I want another full black source somewhere. These numbers don't include Vets, Sakura, and Zenith access, though, so, it might be fine.
Anyway, the above numbers are also not counting half points (Deed/Deluge are probably .5 CA, Elspeth SC is sometimes interaction, ChamCol is a really big wolf for Master, etc). This is a deceptively interactive deck. The tradeoff for that is that it's a little more old school in its mana generation. When we started splashing red in the board for Slaughter Games, the Deathrites became mandatory as color fixing, which also pushed our ramp numbers up. Before that, though, we never used to run more than 9-10 ramp spells (as we account for them in "modern times," depended on whether 1 or 2 Sakura-Tribes).
Considering the numbers of other types of cards in the deck, I actually think that it's pretty close to spot on in terms of its ratios. Meren vs Nylea is a reasonable discussion to be had, but I think that I want Meren: Vindicate can clean up stray Karaki, and there's plenty of removal for opposing Deathrites.
I think that adapting to miracles requires to cut rhinos, you can't afford to play a four drop that always trades even with plowshares, if you wanna have a better shot you must play noncreature spells (enchentment/pod/planeswalkers) or creatures with a reasonably good come in play, holding most of their cost in the effect instead of raw stats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Feels like the old BG lists that used to be a thing back when RUG Delver was the top dog could do better than rhino lists against miracles, im actually missing the point of rhino at all, we already own delver MU, it is for sure poor in the combo MU and it doesn't shine in the control MU, i could be godlike against eldrazi unless they go ham with smashers but that's pretty much it.
I think if you are jamming rhinos, PoP out of the side is your postboard game plan against miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
Anathemancer actually shits on pop if you want to follow that route, but i think we can just win a trade based game as long as we can land a podQuote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Ah. I did try Anathemancer in Junk Pod. Too fancy, unfortunately 😎Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctalor
21 Lands is fine, though slightly greedy in my opinion (but that's why we play legacy). I cut a DRS for the 22nd land. So yea 2+ DRS in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
I used to have teeg main deck, but I did the math and the matches he was relevant against just aren't common enough and I don't find beating Storm or Sneak/Show too difficult in 3 matches. If you're running less gsun (lulwut?!) then I guess that makes him better? Though you have less access to him, so I don't know haha.
It just makes it all the sweeter when I crush them with something "that's not a real deck".Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Dryad Arbor did the tricky things it does last night too. Cabal Therapy, flashback off Arbor, Volrath's it to the top of library, play it with Courser, and repeat on the next turn.
I am extremely happy with Volrath's in my 75 now. Sometimes it can be a little underwhelming when it's a Wastes and you're mana starved and wishing it were a Tower, but when it's good it's great.
This may just be an inescapable truth of the deck but white just feels off for SE Fit, I'm not sure I can explain it. I have some red ideas that I think I'll try next time I can play some games on xmage though.Quote:
And that's why you run Abzan! The cards can be crazy high impact.
Hello everyone, been away for a while (being busy planning my wedding), but there is a BOM trial coming this sunday so I figured I could go there with next to no preparation and some beers:cool:.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Somebody said stoneforge ? :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
So let's discuss sideboarding vs miracle (and any other decks, why not?) with stone fit.
current list, feel free to skip.
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Path to Exile
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 tireless tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 thrun
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Lingering Souls
1 taiga // 21 lands
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
Yes ooze is missing, I'm currently running tracker in its slot. I've found that DRS do the grave hate impression well enough (and faster, because when I need game 1 grave hate, it is usually fast grave hate that's needed) also I needed one more must kill beater vs miracle . So bob on 'roids it is.
2 abeyance
2 slaughter games
2 duress
1 surgical
1 extirpate
1 scavenging ooze
teeg
reclamation sage
needle
zealous persecutions
toxic deluge
engineered plague
the plan vs miracle is , as jain mor summed it up : remove path and some amount of explorer/therapy
I aim to overload miracle removals (and abeyance/slaughter/surgical them), winning through brute strength (with 1/1 :tongue:)
my questions are : do you left 1 explorer just to have the possibility to green sun for him ? what other cards do you side out ? what about jitte? do you side in surgical effects ?
I side jitte out because I will go to SOFI first (card draw is needed) and batterskull second (because resilience) also jitte do nothing the first time it connects , which is kind of bad.
about eldrazis, for those whom play slaughter games, do you side some in ?
I've found that the games resolve around reality smasher (yeah jain, that's the one I was talking about, that's what you get from posting half asleep).
If they play multiples ,I loose. If they play one or none, I win.
So I've started to play slaughter games in the hope of removing their worst offender preemptively.
Against combo I usually side out removal and top end threats (except sigarda vs sneak & show)
@ Plm, do you have thoughts/response to my reply to your original PM?
You can't leave in 1 Vet unless you leave in 2+ therapy to be honest. Do you want therapies? Do you want to spend a card giving both players 2 lands?
Edit: I'm not sure who you are even talking to haha, Navsi has said his opinion already and I've said mine. Who else plays Stone fit a lot? Qweerios isn't around much anymore. Square_Two you're new to it?
Because Nic Fit has so many variants it's hard to keep track of who plays what. @Arian do you think it would be a good idea to keep a tally of names of people that play certain versions of the deck a bunch in the primer. That way when new people arrive they can call out / PM the appropriate people, and when people want to discuss things they know who to look out for? Maybe that's just a pain in the arse for you and everyone should just keep their signature updated with lists.. (updating mine as I type)
Like I want to ask now for a raise of hands for people that have a good amount of experience with Stone Fit, but that's just going to clunk up the thread potentially (or maybe it is just us 3-4 haha)
I think if Blue Nic fit has a nice 2 card combo kill that fit it would easily be the best version but none of the options are super appealing.
I actually think of all the variants that white has to offer he Thune combo is probably the best option. Turbo thune can sometimes race slower combo (especially with discard disruption and it allows you to present lethal with a variety of cards. If I decide to pick up a non blue nic fit deck I may look into building a thune combo deck. People already play 5 drop angels and Thune isnt terrible on its own. With Stronghold and witness the combo can be fairly durable to put together. It can win the turn you play it but even if not it means you have the time to grind out the game.
Was typing but real life interfered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Good point , I was banking on tower to sacrifice dora, but yeah maybe side out the 4 of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
I'm talking to every body :smile: because if we do all our discutions by PM, people might get the impression that stone fit is dead. (see scape wish and pod...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
This way any body can chime in.
All are welcome in the order of the mystics (junk fit is ripe with cults between the curch of the holy rhino and the angel horde of thune )
Yeah good idea. Sign me in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
I'll try to add a list or something to my signature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
I've been on stompy decks online for most of this year. Braids Stax, Sylvan Plug, Junk...starting these past couple of weeks to drop off Chalice and do more of the standard nic fit builds. Loving Vet and Therapy, man it is so satisfying to blindly rip a card. So I'd say I'm a beginner with nic fit but the stompy experience has been very good for me. And online play has made me such a better player regardless.
I still need to stick to a version and slowly gain definite experience, looking like it will be either SFM or BUG. Probably SFM for Columbus. Suiting up Dryad Arbors is hilarious :cool:
@Plm I really like your list, I keep wanting to fit in:
1) Karakas, since it is a way to protect Sigarda, Meren, Thrun, Teeg (I'm on the fence w/ Meren)
2) 2nd Tracker
3) 2nd DRS or 22nd land
4) 1 Rhino
5) 1 Painful Truths
@Jain_More: I can't help but think that at least 1 GSZ could be cut for something. Especially in something closer to Plm's list incorporating Lingering Souls.
Anyhow I just need more experience to get further of a feel for these small cuts. It is very easy to be influenced by individual small victories or defeats (that one time Meren was a boss really sticks out, or having Teeg in the main, or etc etc). Really takes probably 50-100 matches with the same list before you get more of a true feel for what is valuable. So I've been trying to trust you guys :wink:
Ok, trying to do better about testing lists before suggesting them... got in a few games against Delver playing a Jund list. It wasn't as easy as Junk, but the matchup was still quite good. Beating Delver and fair decks are where we shine. I made some changes to my CA package here dropping Bobs. That's because there's less lifegain so the flip damage is higher. 4 Rhinos really alleviates the pain there, and I just couldn't do that. Not yet sold on Gitrog, but I wanted something that could beat an Angler in combat. Overall, Top is more central to this build than it is with Junk but I'm keeping a pretty similar deck density as far as CA, removal, creatures, etc go... I just really like the balance I've been using, though I'm slightly lighter on creatures here.
Land 22
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Creatures 16
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Mina and Denn, Wildborn
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 The Gitrog Monster
Planeswalkers 2
1 Domri Rade
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Artifact 4
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Spells 15
3 Punishing Fire
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Murderous Cut
Enchantment 2
2 Pernicious Deed
Domri may be a stretch at just over a 25% chance to hit, but if it gets going with Volraths, or Top, or even Courser knowledge it becomes way stronger and it's removal that contributes to board presence. Still, I'm pretty open to just making that slot a Maelstrom Pulse.
Just some thoughts on the SFM build and NicFit in general.
Jain always promoted the SFM build, and with good reason. Comparing it with a (random) 4 Rhino build it offers more interaction and more pressure on the early game (thus fighting a better attrition war). On top of that, equipment makes a lategame Veteran Explorer a less awkward draw. All in all i felt more in control when running a SFM build. On the other hand i do agree that this deck (junk) is missing a 2 card combo just like Tom says. After playing Aggro Loam for a while i understand this more. NicFit wants to fight it's war in the lategame, but sometimes wants to say: "Okay, now i'm done fucking around and just kill you right here". The problem is implementing a combo that doesn't have any impact on the decks design except for the 2 actual cards for a combo. Thunian, is requiring a lot more dedication on its main deck and thus becomes a more clunky deck. On the other hand, both Spike Feeder as Spike Weaver have the ability to force games going long enough for the Archangel to actually become relevant
Miracles - In the last 23 (exactly) competitive match-ups i played i actually played against Miracles 2 times. With 1 win and 1 loss on a regular sideboard. The win was on the back of Garruk Relentless and on the 1 threat at the time basic tactic. So on my experience that is roughly ~10% chance of pairing against Miracles and have roughly ~50% if winning vs them with a fairly regular plan. Even if your not winning both matches, it still be 10% chance to meet Miracles. Is it really worth it to focus so much on winning Miracles in the first place? Is it worth it losing % against the rest of the field? Personally i believe we (this thread) is overreacting on the Miracles match-up. Lets stay true to the NicFit core and do what we are good at.
SFM - After playing SFM in several archetypes for the last couple of month's i found two things bugging me.
1. Batterskull being stuck in hand during the early games, cus SFM got removed and missing mana to land BS. BS on itself can really win games, but it doesn't really handle board states when we are playing reactive. Umezawa's Jitte on the other hand has put up some decent pressure and was able to have good effect on negative boardstates. It also lands early, which is good.
2. Having SFM on hand or drawing into it, while having or holding both BS and Jitte was really awkward.
So, moving forward i would like to try and run a 2SFM/3Equip configuration with 1Jitte, 1SoFaI and 1SoLaS/SoFaF.
The 4 drop (or 5) - Between Thrun, Meren, Rhino and Thragtusk i found Thragtusk to be the most relevant of them all. Thragtusk is also most relevant of these vs Miracles,... just saying. 5 Life is solid (and game changing) vs a lot of decks where it lands. Especially against Burn/Storm. At this point i would run Thragtusk in any NicFit build. This leaves me with 0 four drops and an increase in 3 drops, which is okay to try to the very least.
Sun Titan - Cards like these define NicFit. This is the reason to play NicFit in the first place. Especially with 3x CMC <= 3 equipment, Pernicious Deed and Tireless Tracker or other CMC 3's Sun Titan shines. The card always seems to show-up in games where it matters/go long. It being non-green and CMC 6 never was a problem. Since Sun Titan is a thing, Sylvan Library is probably okay as a one-of vs SDT nr 3.
Some other choices in the deck:
KotR - Solid clock vs combo, fetches karakas (especially vs SnS), fetches Stronghold in the grind, Walls up vs Eldrazi. Ralf convinced me from looking at the card. O, and playing Aggro Loam also helped.
Tracker - Flavor of the month?
Courser of Kruphix - Brael just convinced me with the (awesome) Stronghold/Arbor tricks. Anyway, always been a fan and the card helps against decks running Bolt..
Both QPM and Teeg are more relevant in the current meta, while Scooze is on the board for now. QPM also provides exalted, which is nice for the equipment.
SB:
Hatebears - more and more, having a prison effect AND and a clock in one card, what's not to like.
Garruk R and Elspeth (may also be another token pooper) - Also very nice with the equipment.
Extirpate - this is a personal flavor thouch specifically vs Reanimator to dodge countermagic.
List:
61 Main
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
3 Path to Exile
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
15 Main
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Containment Priest
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
@Brael's Jund, look interesting. Will take a better look at it tomorrow.
Truth. Our priestess Mystic, our holy rhino and our angels really all serve the same junk church. We are all practitioners of different sects among the same faith. #abzan4lyfeQuote:
Originally Posted by Plm
@Square, cool :) I've tested souls numerous times, coming from Junk midrange I understand their power. But they just didn't fit in for me and I never did well with them. Me and Plm agree to disgree there :)
You can cut the plains or a tower for the karakas, card is good. I don't think you need a second tracker, she is really clunky, and only good in some matchups, I'm still not sure she has earned her slot to be honest. To get the extra land or 2nd Drs you need to cut the abor, the souls or the tracker. I'd cut the abor. If you want the rhino you have to cut the tracker or souls or the thrun. I wouldn't recommend going below 3 sfm in my extensive/strong opinion. If you want the truths I would put it in the sideboard tbh or again, cut a souls.
Or you could cut a GSun, but I'm never sad to see the card...
@Bobmans, thanks. I tried to say my piece a while a go, but realised I would be better off getting some results to back up my claims. I still can't 5-0 a damn league but after 100+ matches I'm grinding away with a 66% win rate and not spending many tickets on entry which I'm very happy with haha.
The reason why I/we talk about miracles so much is because I/we have "solved" all the other matchups. I know what to do in them, and I know how to win. I know how to adjust my sideboard if I think I expect to see more of any other deck in the metagame. Except miracles. The two decks that I have the lowest win rate against are Miracles and Elves I think. I see miracles far more often than elves, and it feels like a matchup that should be winnable. I just lost against it again haha making this league another 4-1 for the records. Beating Merfolk, Grixis-Pyro, Reanimator and Shardless. Blue for daysss.
Agreed on combo or instant win button, I'm always on the look out for something, it really feels like the missing piece to the puzzle. That's why I keep looking at helm, but its bad. It's why I like the idea of the Starfield Enchantment stuff, hard to interact with and finally I've looked at EMpty the Pits quite a few times...
Regarding your SFM concerns: We play Sigarda, Thragtusk, and Thune. BSK being stuck in hand is a confusing issue to have when you want to play sun titan :P I'd also never play less than 3 SFM after trying so numerous times. But that's me and you are you :) Agreed on thragtusk, card is a house. I would play 4 if you could consistently get to 5 mana as quick as we got to 4.
@Navsi, my next league will be using some walkers like you suggested, changing the meren to a thrun and cutting the abor + probably the tracker. And yes after playing with Skeletal scrying, I prefer painful truths. Being cheaper is real. Spirit also did some work in the league, I like it. I'm going to reconfigure my sideboard based on siding in 2 extracts against miracles too. Cheers.
Edit: People (Navsi) playing Garruk Relentless, doesn't the card dying to lightning bolt ever bother you?
Play it in the board, against control decks. Namely Miracles or UWxx Stone/Deathblade. Those decks typically do not run Bolt, rather it is there to dodge Plow and Terminuclear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
On the other hand, for example Liliana dies to bolt and decay. Still she is one of the hottest walkers out there. But like any walker, you needs to set conditions for the card to sustain.
Edit: i say typically because there is always the exception.
Just gonna throw this crazy idea out there regarding the instant win/combo route:
Death Wish + Price of Progress (or other sideboard bomb)
It still needs some work, but in testing it's maintaining it's edge against Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Yes it does!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Except that isn't a guaranteed insta-win.Quote:
Originally Posted by dull
The combo finish is something that should be looked into though. It's what made me choose Manaless Dredge for todays Monthly over Nic Fit. The prospect of quick games excites me. For Nic Fit the question is just what combo to go for.
My first response would be to say that at least one of the combo pieces should be findable by GSZ, but using creatures to combo off doesn't really solve the Miracles problem. So we'll have to use lands/instants/sorceries/artifacts/enchantments/Planeswalkers to combo off.
Anyone have any suggestions?
Has anyone tested a jund build with Huntmaster, Master of the wild hunt, Arlinn, Garruk relentless und p-fire/Lili. This came up a few pages ago i think.
I would like to get this going somehow. Arlinn is my Pet Card and so i am seeking for a way to make it into legacy with her. This shell seems to be her best and maybe only place.
A good year ago Domri Rade fell on my radar to. It is really awesome when you have SDT, Courser and Domri Rade out, but it was very lackluster on its own. Also not running Liliana of the Veil in a jund list is kind of a miss. Liliana gives us some reach in the lack of Plows. Plus, the card is also helpful vs combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Gitrog Monster seems out of place here, fighting Angler might be addressed with a different approach. The Deathtouch seems awkward on a 6/6, since most creatures die to it anyway, but it is a trade with anything bigger.
Mina and Denn fall under the same category as Domri Rade, when it works it is awesome, but most of the times it ain't Christmas.
Something really sweet that is borderline playable, but suits here better then Gitrog Monster is Omnath, Locus of Rage. CMC 7 is a lot, and it dying to Plow is a thing, but man once you get this going with all the lands interactions your are in for a fun ride. I have played it for a while in a PFire list and in a ScapeWish list with an adjusted creature base. I really wanted to push this forward, but i didn't have the time to tune it any further.
Maelstrom Pulse is necessary in a Jund list. We just need that little bit of reach. How was the Murderous Cut?
Actually, i did mention that. Didn't try it yet. Was planning to go with a more or less "regular" PFire list and put 2 Huntmaster, 1 Master of the Wild Hunt along with 1 Garruk R and 1 Arlinn Kord in the main. This probably means i wanna run PrimeTime with 2 Tower at the top curve for the mega grind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalton!
There are more Wolves and Werewolves out there that might be interesting, but i haven't explored it that deep yet. Also i am running Arlinn Kord in the side of Aggro Loam where it is obviously very awesome when you +1 a KotR.
61 Main would be looking like this:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Arlinn Kord
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
Maybe a Mayor of Avabruck for the Wolves or more Wolves or Geier Reach Bandit. I think that would be the best of the rest. Maybe still not good enough
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Baleful Strix
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Bone Shredder
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Entomber Exarch
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Grave Titan
4 Birthing Pod
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Innocent Blood
1 Recurring Nightmare
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
1 Island
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower
SB: 1 Massacre Wurm
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Sylvan Safekeeper
SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
SB: 1 Wickerbough Elder
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
This is the list I've been running on cockatrice for a few matches (5-7 or so). I kinda like it, unsure whether it's better than a Junk build. But I do like the Archmage and Brainstorm (with so many shuffle effects). Most awkward thing with the deck so far has been Shriekmaw and Bone Shredder, somehow I've only played against decks where they are a complete blank or have hardly any impact at all. But I guess the fill a purpose vs Mentor, Stoneforge etc. I've played against; Miracles, some kind of lands deck (brew from a newer player), Rug delver (or maybe it was bug delver), Re-animator. And probably some more than I can't remember. Some people just leave the game after t1 Explorer into t2 Therapy... (trimmed the Zenith's because I don't have too many green creatures and I have Pod)
Jund could run Diabolic Intent in order to fetch up Seismic Assault. Instant win combo with that + Gitrog + Dakmor Salvage. Yes, it does require a creature, but GSZ for the Frog can be the last step once Assault is in play, and from there you win instantly if Dakmor is in grave (and you have a land in hand/fetch on field) or in hand. Dakmor kind of works fine with Liliana in the Jund shell. Seismic + Life from the Loam or something would mean you are very resilient against small creature decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
4-2 at mythic for top 16 and 50 bucks. Report to follow when I'm home.
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Gitrog
1 DL Dromoka
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Batterskull
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Painful Truths
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant
4 Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
sb::
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gaze of Granite
2 Tsunami
1 Celestial Purge
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Krosan Grip
This is what I played at Mythic today. Very old school approach to the deck: lots of card advantage and interaction with a decent helping of chunky finishers across a couple card types.
Rd 1: Lyle with Oops
My opponent comments that this is his first legacy event. I expect burn or DnT, and then I have a Balustrade Spy jammed up my anus. He gets me g1 after I successfully Therapy away his Undercity Informer (he mulled to 5 and his mana was bad), but then Spy happens a couple turns later before I can turn the corner. Game two I steal with Surgical. Game three he mulls to 5 again, blind Street Wraiths, and then kills me. I didn't mull to Surgical in g3 because I expected him to be on Belcher, and my 7 had 4 lands, Vet, Therapy, Golgari Charm, vs his mull. I found out afterward that he doesn't sideboard Belcher like most people, he instead boards in Nature's Claims and Pact of Negations and such.
Bleh. Oops.
0-1 / 1-2.
Rd 2: Jake with Grixis Delver
Game one he's stuck on one land but capable of playing magic -- and his hand is super full of gas. I ramp up, disrupt him a bit on the way, deploy Thragtusk, and Gitrog joins the fray a turn later. Game ends swiftly after that.
Game two I control the game...I make him Force my Vindicate on his Pyro, and then untap into a clean wipe off Deluge, and eventually drop Dromoka. These games never even felt close -- I'm not sure if that's due to my list in particular or if he just had very average hands.
1-1 / 3-2.
Rd 3: Germain with Lands
Game one he makes a turn 2/turn 3 Merit Lage. I Zenith for 0 to shuffle my Top and look for a Path, but fail to find it.
Game two takes a couple turns longer, but Merit Lage once again ends the game swiftly. I had a Path, but was forced to use it on his Titania, and his returned Wasteland knocked me off of mana for Eternal Witness -> Path protection.
1-2 / 3-4.
Rd 4: Thomas with Whales
This guy's deck was a sweet brew. He was an actual legacy player with like judge foil Force of Wills and such, but he decided that he wanted to play a sweet deck and had the stones to go through with it. His deck was basically UG ramp, with Utopia Sprawls, Arbor Elves, and Kiora, Master of Depths all contributing to making a ton of mana, while Kiora and Jace TMS kept him in gas. Game one was crazy -- Elspeth, Sun's Champion wiped out his first Colossal Whale, and then two turns later she wrathed his Stormtide Leviathan and 2nd Colossal Whale. He had neglected to notice that she could wrath again, and groused a little that he punted there -- but unknown to him, I had Eternal Witness in hand ready to return Elspeth and re-play her (yes, I had that much mana), to sweep anyway. So...despite dropping to 3 life, I wasn't actually worried.
Game two he plays a turn 3 (on the play) Stormtide Leviathan, because he ramped THAT hard. I suck it up and take 8 to Deluge it (as well as the offending Arbor Elf) away. I keep him off balance enough to close the game out from there with help from Siege Rhino while he flooded a bit.
2-2 / 5-4.
Rd 5: Rob with Shardless
Game one was basically the Garruk and Elspeth show. He Shardlessed into Visions blind twice, as well as another naturally suspended one. Despite drawing a billion cards, none of them mattered. I was able to engineer a board state where Garruk safely flipped onto an empty field with help from Decay and Paths, and then Garruk went nuclear from there: he made a Wolf, which got removed, and then I played back to back Veterans for him to sacrifice to tutor up Sigarda and Dromoka, while Gitrog (played with the Wolf token turn) held the ground against his 5/6 Goyf and kept drawing me gas. Elspeth joined the table and held down the ground vs his board of Goyfs and Shardlesses while the air force actually won the game.
Game two he had one of "those hands,"curving Deathrite into t2 Shardless->blind Visions->t3 Jace->nonsense. I fought for a while, and then basically just kind of fell over dead.
Game three I ramp into an early Sorin, but he has a Needle to shut him down. He drops 3 6/7 Goyfs, which I begrudgingly pay 7 to Deluge away. He stalls for a couple of turns while I play lands, and then draw Elspeth. She +,+,+,-'d to end the game by swinging for 29 in the air as turns were called. He was trying to drain me out with Deathrite, but I was still at 5 when the game ended. Close, but Elspeth is a powerhouse.
3-2 / 7-5.
Rd 6: Nich with Grixis Control
Game one he mulled to 5, but since his deck is literally 2-for-1s the deck, he was able to recover a bit. He tore me up with Therapy a bit before I eventually dropped Sigarda and cruised to the win.
Game two I had a strong Vet/Tower hand with plenty of nonsense, including Tsunami. He Probe/Therapied my Veteran, and made my hand several orders of magnitude worse. Coupled with a bunch of other discard spells, I eventually died to Keranos while he kept the board clear.
Game three was a super grindfest where Meren got online in a big, big way. This was one of those games where Meren just feels incredibly fucking busted. By the time the game ended, I was at 5 experience counters and she was able to reanimate Sigarda on my end step even as I played Dromoka with my lands for turn (Sigarda had walked into a Baleful Strix to get an experience counter earlier).
4-2 / 9-6.
Not the best record in games, but acceptable for matches -- lots of good games on the day.
I'm super tired, but a couple of closing thoughts:
-) I need to get better at my die roll game. I lost all 6 die rolls today. Between this and Charlotte, I think I'm 2-12 on die rolls, which is pretttttty fucking unreal.
-) Batterskull was awful and unnecessary. I don't know what I want that slot to be just yet, but I know it's not going to be Batterskull.
-) Dromoka, Garruk, and Elspeth vastly overperformed on the day. Master of the Wild Hunt was relevant, but wasn't able to break anything wide open. Gitrog continues to impress, and Thrag was notably above average on the day as well. Meren was fine on average, and I never really got the chance to get Tireless Tracker online. Tracker is obviously still quite good -- he just didn't come up. Having one copy of Rhino felt completely correct -- it was a strong midrange threat/finisher, but only running 1 copy didn't force me into a beatdown role.
-) Sakura is still the unsung hero of the deck, quietly ramping you while blocking damage. Praise Sakura.
-) Removal suite felt pretty fine on par, although sometimes I felt like I wasn't drawing sweepers at a high enough regularity. I chalk this up to variance since I've run 3 sweepers maindeck for approximately years.
-) Manabase felt very solid.
-) Sideboard was overall pretty good. 3 Surgicals might be a hair short on graveyard hate -- I might want to try to make room for perhaps two other options. I don't know what they would be off the top, though, nor do I know how I would make room for them. I could put Sorin, LoI maindeck in exchange for the Batterskull, and then that would open one slot...not sure beyond that, though.
Also, as a side topic, I officially have Nic Fit built on Modo, finally. It's the above list, so I'm going to have to update it slightly with whatever changes I make, but, whatever. I'll try to stream a couple of leagues over the next few days and hopefully Twitch will save them as videos that can be replayed. My username is ArianrhodSidhe, since apparently somebody else took Arianrhod at some point in the dusty past -_-;;
I'll have more thoughts over the next couple days, I'm sure. Deck felt very solid overall, though -- I definitely liked the way the deck played. It felt like coming home, if I'm going to be perfectly honest here. It felt like it was doing what it was actually supposed to be doing, in the way it was supposed to be doing it, and at the speed of tempo at which it was supposed to be doing it. Need to tune a little, obviously, but I think that I can safely declare that I will on something very similar to this for Columbus, and would advise a similar philosophy and card selection.
Congrats on the result!
@Arian: I am currently play testing 1 rhino 2 tusks 1 garruk 1 grave Titan as wincon ( so -1 gitrog -1 Dromoka compared to your list) and you are right in the sense that the list feels more controlling and the bombs are more devastating and game ending, which I like so far.
2 tusks in particular are surprising me more than I though they could, especially against miracles (we lose some % vs delver without 4 rhino, and we need lifegain after all if we say no to rhino time).
Question time
1, Dromoka: in what situation is she better than grave Titan? At 7 mana I have never gsz for her and the "180^ the game" potential seems lower than the Titans. Opinions?
2, big elspeth: why did you play her over KE? My curiosity.
3, gitrog: I have bought it online but never tested it yet for some reason. He seems like a karakasable spirit monger, has the card drawing ability ever been relevant in your experience? If yes how much relevant? I'll try him myself.
Meren is no longer in my deck for the reason you know already; no Drs in the 75-76 seems somewhat wrong..maybe because I don't play Sakura?
I am being silent here, but still testing stuff online..I'll post when I will have formed definite opinions on each of my choices. Congrats on the MODO account, welcome to the best method of burning money online [emoji4]
Answer time:Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
1: Dromoka is essentially a Zenithable Baneslayer. She's virtually unbeatable vs Delver once she lands, and she can do a great job of stabilizing a lot of other matchups. I was initially hesitant about her, but after watching Warden run her to success, I was sway ed to give her a try. I haven't really looked back since, to be honest. She's been really solid.
2: Elspeth 6 is still a potent combat walker...she's about the same clock as Elspeth 4, but she's much better on defense due to her swarm of chumps. Additionally, I find her -3 to be extremely relevant. She's backbreaking against Eldrazi, and is still very powerful in other slow / grindy matchups. She does get boarded out against Delver and most combo decks, but I have no problem running her maindeck.
3: Gitrog has drawn me a lot of cards, for sure. Each Gitrog has on average drawn 3-4 cards before being removed or taking one for the team and trading with a 6/7 Goyf. That being said, I could certainly see worlds where running a 2nd Tusk over him could be reasonable. I did feel like I was getting low a couple times on the day, and 1 Thrag didn't always feel like enough, since Dromoka takes a turn to wind up. I'll have to think more on this one.
DRS: I think that unless we're splashing a 4th color in the sideboard, unless we're Pod, and unless we're mega-ramping in non-cloudposts for some reason, DRS is a trap. He's one of those cards that kind of lines up alongside Rhino in my estimation -- a very good card, but one that isn't necessarily some place we want to be. For what it's worth, I'm sure there's a 4 DRS 4 Vet 4 Rhino X Price of Progress deck there somewhere...but I have absolutely no interest in finding it / building it. I enjoy the control side of the deck far more than the beatdown side.
Meren: where I basically come down on Meren is that she's awful in some % of matches, she's amazing in some % of matches, and she's amazing in some % of games where you play specifically to her. She's kind of like Yawg Will in vintage when the delve cards were unrestricted. If you were running Will and Cruise/Dig in multiples, you had to specifically play around the potential of you drawing Yawg Will later in the game. If you're in a matchup....let's say Shardless....where Meren could be very strong, just make sure you save removal spells for their Deathrites, and she'll be fine. She's definitely not a fire-and-forget card selection, though, and I don't fault anyone for not sticking with her.
Hope that helps :)
Thanks for answering! I'll try Gitrog and Elspeth 6. Speaking of Elspeth 6, I can see her wrath ability being very strong against both goyfs AND eldrazi: in this regard, being both not tutorable threats, she might replace grave titan for now. They both are strong 6 mana finishers, but one cannot be removed for one single W mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
DRS: the guy is not here to fix mana and/or ramp necessarily, since he basically is a little threat by himself. Against storm I can count more times I have won thanks to him than the ones I closed the game thanks to, say, rhino or other bigger guys. I feel that the cost of running him is very low, with high upside. It is only one card after all.
In the 1 rhino version, I feel like a second tusk is needed, both for the life gain AND the card advantage he provides against control. 5 power is very very nice against eldrazi and goyfs. I suggest you play a second one!
I'll try your threat selection with a single change: -1 dromoka +1 tusk. This way I gain more game against miracles and faster decks, plus it cannot be karakas'd. Dromoka is of course nice, but very slow to gain us life, while tusk gives us the time to come back into the game and deploy the baddest guys in our deck.
The rest of my deck stays the same compared to the 4 rhino version, so i still have the red splash, the same removal suite, manabase and the same exact sideboard.
E: maybe I will change the mana base a bit because of the WW in big elspeth's mana cost.
A toast gentlemen! Here's to 6000th posts of Nic Fit glory and to the next 6000 more.
http://i.imgur.com/9Pj2J04.png