[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Echelon]

I saw this list, so I wrote that...

I believe you missed the 2 Birthing Pods in that list as well as the Taiga, Tropical Islands and Underground Seas in the manabase .

You were looking at a BUG Pod Fit list, not a Junk (non-Pod) Fit list.

[Ricardio]

I think it's about my tiny contribution and the ones that came out already working on that kind of option you're talking about here.

Sorry, I'm new in this thread and forum. So I don't know if you're a troll or just some conservator. So I will answer it. Perhaps I should just ignore it. So be it.

If you refer to the very first post of this thread, you will find that an enchantements fit fits (ah!ah!) properly 90% of the core which define a Nic Fit deck. So this is the proper thread for it. No Argothian Enchantress in here, so it would be rude to post it in an Enchantress thread...

You're not the only one to have spent hours on a Nic Fit way, I'm on my list since several months before puting a brew here to go ahead.
You know, Rhino fit is quite new too in Nic Fit history. And since your time seems really precious, I will give you an abstract of the last pages about Rhino Fit (hope to not spoil you too much..): Rhino was great on paper and good on a previous meta. But actually, it didn't fill it's main purpose. It's not a big enought threat against miracle, not the finisher it would be expected to be. It was already a bit weak against a good tharmo or a gurmag angler. But now it tends to be totally overcomed by Eldrazis... All the recent posts I read about it was about no or less rhino and find a proper substitute.

Sorry and go ahead man.

Everyone is simply declaring rhino dead and moving on but to what? this enchantment centric version that you claim isn't enchantress because it doesn't play a card with that in its name, you can only be so enchantress with nic fit elements until you are just the worst parts of each archetype. Miracles is a large part of the meta but losing faith in the deck because of the lackluster matchup isn't correct, adaptation is key. Your entire post was saturated with negative connotation of which does nothing to help your cause nor your argument.

[square_two]

For the colorless manabase, if you want to go three colour, it looks to me like there are two basic options:

- Painland heavy -

...

- Sol Lands - this is a lot less stable but potentially very explosive. Basically we need to keep our G/B/R sources high, so we end up running more fetchlands to compensate for the mono-colorless sources we're taking.

9 Fetchlands in whatever configuration
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Wastes

With the same 22 lands, we're on 14G/14B/12R/4C, so we have a lot more trouble casting our TKS without a Vet/STE, but when we do it can come down on turn two. The list will also run Tireless Tracker and Gitrog really well due to the abundance of fetchlands.

Instead of Eldrazi Temple, what about good ole' Ancient Tomb? It helps accelerate not only TKS and Smasher, but also some of the other high end stuff, even like GSZ, Thragtusk, Titania, helps with firing off Deed for when you need to hit 4-5, Karn/other planeswalkers. Might even open up options for T1 Chalice from the side against the decks that we are already planning on taking out Vet and Therapy...

Trouble is that it is even more of a headache against Burn, and multiples are clunky. And you have to actively keep out a lot of creatures and stuff with a 1 in the generic cost in order to further reduce clunkiness.

[Navsi]

Everyone is simply declaring rhino dead and moving on but to what? this enchantment centric version that you claim isn't enchantress because it doesn't play a card with that in its name, you can only be so enchantress with nic fit elements until you are just the worst parts of each archetype. Miracles is a large part of the meta but losing faith in the deck because of the lackluster matchup isn't correct, adaptation is key. Your entire post was saturated with negative connotation of which does nothing to help your cause nor your argument.

We've looked in depth at Academy Rector options several times in the thread before. We've spent time looking at Humility, Primeval Bounty, and Collective Blessing. We haven't gotten particularly far with it, but more people agreed that there was potentially something there. Ulysse95 brought up Starfield of Nyx, and did so while mentioning that he's been playtesting with the list. Maybe you shouldn't be dismissing the possibility of there being something there when we've spent significantly more time working on other deck builds and plans which haven't put up any results whatsoever, like The Gitrog Monster (which hasn't been in any lists with good results as far as I am aware).

The list generally plays all the trappings of Nic Fit (Explorer, Zenith, Therapy, Deed). The choices which aren't common to some number of other lists are:

- Rector and Liliana, which see play elsewhere - the previous page has an Academy Rector list on it with Recycle as a target.
- 2 Grove and 2 Starfield as tutor + wincon
- Some enchantment type removal rather than instant/sorcery for synergy
- 2 Utility tutor targets in Martyr's Cause and Humility
- A couple other enchantment wincons, which are interchangable and even the poster agrees are probably being greedy.

I don't think that a change of two finisher cards and two filtering cards, plus swapping a couple removal spells for ones with more synergy, really constitutes such a divergence from regular Nic Fit. Particularly when the poster has actually been playtesting the list for a couple months and considers it at least semi playable.

[Arianrhod]

--------------------
GB<> Ramp
--------------------

4 Veteren
2 Sakura-Tribe
1 Tireless Tracker
1 E.Wit
1 Fierce Empath
3 Thought-Knot
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Endbringer
1 Ulamog, Ceaseless

4 Therapy
3 Zenith
3 Living Wish

1 Ugin

2 Deed
1 Deluge
2 Decay

3 Top
2 Painful Truths

4 Glimmerpost
2 Cloudpost
1 Karakas
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
4 Verdant
2 Heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah

sb::
3 Surgical
2 Tsunami
2 Canonist
1 Thought-Knot
1 Kozilek, Distortion
1 Platinum Angel
1 Reality Smasher
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Eugene
1 RecSage

--------------------
GB<> Midrange
--------------------

4 Veteran
2 Sakura-Tribe
1 Fierce Empath
1 E.Wit
1 Tireless
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Thought-Knot
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval
1 Ulamog, Ceaseless
1 Kozilek, Distortion

4 Therapy
3 Zenith

2 Deed
1 Deluge
4 Path to Exile

3 Top
2 P.Truths

4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Eye
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
4 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Wastes
4 Verdant
2 Heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah

sb::
2 Tsunami
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Platinum Angel
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Trinisphere
1 Deluge
1 Gaze of Granite
1 Wurmcoil Engine

--------------------
GBW Control
--------------------

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Gitrog
1 DL Dromoka

1 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Batterskull

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Painful Truths
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant
4 Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower

sb::
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gaze of Granite
2 Tsunami
1 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Krosan Grip

--------------------

Couple updated lists. Tuning and narrowing down options. I'm going to be playing something close to one of these tomorrow at Mythic, and then I'll try to figure out wtf I want to do for Columbus from there.

[benoasan]

Hi guys!

For a BG midrange, I am actually testing this (from the thread Nic Feat 8Post http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...t-8Post/page12):

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Bayou
4 Llanowar wastes
4 Forest
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Verdant Catacombs

1 Reality Smasher
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Matter Reshaper
3 Primeval Titan
3 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Krosan Grip

[Navsi]

With regards to 3-colour lists with Colorless for Thought-knot, has anyone tried putting him into BUG? I know that BUG builds already have similar solutions to the same problems in Glen Elendra Archmage, but the beatdown potential of Thought-Knot could speed up the otherwise anemic game-ending abilities of the blue builds.

@Arianrhod

In the GB<> Midrange list, do you think a Tasigur might be worth it? You are running Empath, so having an immediately castable target seems useful.
In the GBW control list, do you really need all those wincons? I'd be tempted to say at least a few of them could be swapped for more interaction or filtering to make the deck less top-heavy, maybe leaving one of the 4-drops (Meren IMO, since you don't run Arbor or Nightmare) for another Deed/Deluge to capitalise on your walkers and fatties?

[Jain_Mor]

A super sweeeet thing you can do with Starfield against miracles for example is once your starfield animates your enchantments so you can attack, if they terminus you can sac your pernicious deed to de-animate the rest of your enchantments and then just try attacking again next turn. I've always been curious about enchantments because like equipment they don't die to a lot and DRS can't exile them from graveyard (real useful when using eternal witness..) so Starfield could do a lot as a finisher. I am interested in this builds progression, after more testing I'd like to see an updated list so I can start tinkering with it on cockatrice.

I always try and full back on a Helm of Obedience / Leyline version, but it always fails miserably haha

Anyways, @Navsi! Sideboard plans is what I want to discuss most on this forum really, so thanks :)

I've been sideboarding very differently against Miracles - something like this:

-1 Jitte
-2 Veteran Explorer (1 left)
-1 Thoughtseize
-2 Cabal Therapy (2 left)
-1 Toxic Deluge
-3 Path

+1 Thrag
+1 Teeg
+3 Surgical Extraction
+2 Carpet of Flowers
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Abrupt Decay

I'd argue our sideboard plan is pretty similar. Cut do nothing removal and the vet/therapy plan, add some relevant disruption and some more ways to pull ahead. We just differ in how much we do those things and our card choice for them, which is very interesting and I'm hoping I/we can learn something to improve our decks.

For reference my deck at the moment:

61/15
22 lands + Abor, T1: 14G 13B 13W Total: 16G 13B 15W not including Abor
4 Verdant
4 Windswept
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas/Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower

4 Gsun
1 D Abor
4 Vet
1 DRS
1 E wit
1 Tracker
1 Meren
1 Swagtusk
1 Sigarda

3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

3 Top
4 Therapy
2 TS
3 Stp
3 Decay
3 Deed

SB:
2 Needle
2 Surg -.- Must use more carefully -.-
2 TS
2 Spirit of Laby/ Abeyance
1-2 Teeg (Depends on if I have eng plague below)
1 Rec Sage
0-1 Eng Plague
2 Deluge
2 Card advantage, currently 1 Sorin 1 Skeletal scrying

My board plan against miracles:
-4 Vet -4 Therapy -3 Stp
+2 Needle +2 TS +2 Spirit / Abeyance +1 Teeg +1 Rec Sage +2 Card advantage, if my board has 2nd teeg than 2nd teeg is 11th card, if not then I add an Eng Plague if they have monks or a Surgical Ext otherwise.

I don't agree with cutting Jitte. It is a threat that like other equipment turns any of your creatures into a quick clock. Plus it can answer mentor and take out random annoying creatures the deck plays (Snap, clique, venser, lavamancer etc)

I'm keeping with 2 Therapy and 0 Thoughtseize post-side, rather than your 0 Therapy 4 Thoughtseize. I've found that generally they both achieve the same effect against miracles (clear out counterspells so you can resolve a haymaker) but Therapy has additional synergy with the tokens and unneeded Stoneforges we have, along with Surgical.

Okay, lets make something clear first, TS is better with surgical extraction than Cabal therapy is because it is guaranteed to hit something and therapy isnt. Also having 4 discard spells post board is much better with surgical extraction than 2 discard spells. So I'm not too keen on your plan regardless of if surgical extraction is good or not. I don't like therapy because I don' think that any SFM is unneeded. A SFM in play is a threat that they have to answer; I would rather them have to spend mana and answer it than me sacrifice it to a therapy that didn't necessarily hit something on its first cast which would have been a TS and be guaranteed to take whatever was most dangerous in their hand to begin with and keep my SFM to equip with or make future equipments uncounterable etc *breathes* TS is significantly better at clearing the way compared to therapy because you can't miss. Maybe they don't have counter spell or FoW or Jace but they have StP.. As I don't like therapy in the match or the veteran plan I cut them all (i'd rather them use their top and cantrips to find land than answers), I replace them with the 4 TS which I love in the early, mid and late turns.

I really like Surgical Extraction against Miracles - while it doesn't completely disable the deck (see Slaughter Games discussion) it does do a lot of scary things, particularly when we're running Therapy and when we're playing so many Must-Force spells. Even just taking Terminus or Force or Swords is very strong, getting them to shuffle at times when they've stacked their deck is really powerful too.

Fair enough. Again odd that you mention therapy as if it's better than other discard in this spot, especially as you have TS in your list too. I'm kind of curious about surgical extraction, I get how it could be good. I just feel like I wouldn't want to draw two in one game, so I'd only side in one. But if it is as good as you say it is then they will replace my spirit/abeyance slot and thats quite exciting because those two cards can then become something else. Have you had much experience casting it against miracles? I will give this a go because I would be great if it worked, thanks :)

I don't know if Sorin & Scrying are a good idea when you're cutting all the Veteran Explorers - you only have 21 lands and no ramp cards, casting 6-drops and big X spells feels pretty hopeful. I get that the game goes long, but our haymakers are a lot better when we cast them before turn eight. I'm keeping one Vet to Zenith up if I need the mana asap / something to Therapy off right now, and still have a Sakura-Tribe Elder to work with as well. Carpet of Flowers does a lot of work.

At the moment I'm running 22 lands and 2 mana dorks plus the 3 tops to search for more, though I've run 21 land, 2 dorks and 3 tops for a long time and really haven't had much issue slamming down sorin against miracles. I do like STE but miracles is the only reason I would play him, so that isn't enough for me at the moment. Carpet of flowers is cool, but since we are playing threats at CMC 2 and up, I haven't really found an issue in just hitting land drops and curving out.

I keep in Decay just because most players keep counterbalance in in my experience - but also if I side out both Swords/Path and Abrupt Decay, I am very thin on the ground in answers to Monastery Mentor. Post-sideboard you are pretty much on Deed, Thoughtseize and that's it for answers to the stupid monk, and that really worries me.

You must have misread something I wrote, no worries, post board I have 4 TS 3 decays 3 deed 1 ewit 1 jitte 2 needles and sometimes an Eng Plague to answer Miracles threats.

I'm also surprised you don't take Meren out against Miracles, she seems pretty uninspiring there - I guess she demands a 1 for 1 trade immediately but that still seems to be playing into their game plan more than into ours.

I had a similar opinion a while ago, but then miracles players stopped boarding RIP against me (dumb idea anyway) and I noticed that despite StP and Terminus I would end up with some powerful creatures in my graveyard. They get FoW'd or counter spelled (can't always have the TS), mainly SFM, Ewit or Teeg but others too of course. So just being a creature that also returns another powerful creatures is pretty great. They have to answer her and you get another threat. You can also pyrexian tower your own creatures in response to StP and you can protect your own legendary creatures like Meren and Sigarda using your own Karakas which can be great. That said if they have they are on the legendary build then Meren is a no no. Finally in the few games I tested Sylvan Safekeep, I established Safekeeper + Meren + Dryad Abor + Teeg against miracles. Think that through for a second haha. They eventually found council's judgment (why I ended up leaning towards 2 teeg instead) but the damage had been done and I still won that game.

All the other matchups look pretty much the same as I would go for, running ZP as Deluge where relevant. I'd be tempted to run Needle in the D&T and Eldrazi matchups for Vial/Mom/equipment and Endbringer/Displacer/equipment. Generally I always put it in against decks that run Jitte. Against Shardless ZP isn't as relevant as Deluge so I'd probably keep some Therapy in or add in Carpet to overrun them with threats / Deed faster.

I'm not bothered about Jitte, but agreed, I often also bring in Needle against D&T to shut down their Ports so I can cast my sweepers. And yes against White eldrazi, displacer is a kick in the nuts. So agreed there too.

In conclusion, my game plan against miracles is to curve out and make sure every card in my deck has an immediate impact on the game (why im so hesitant on extraction (but I will try it) and why I don't like therapy/vet)
The man lands are a new addition to help with mulliganing, flooding and closing the game in all matchups, and also for blocking fliers and to give me some uncounterable threats to up my density against miracles. I modelled my mana base on shardless, 22 lands with 2 tar pits. I cut all their and an exrtra fetch wastelands for the extra basics and my 2 other utility lands.

Look forward to hearing (seeing?) your thoughts and I am keen on testing cutting the abor for a planeswalker and maybe changing the meren to a Thrun

[square_two]

@Jain_Mor
I'm curious to hear how the Wildwoods go! Seems like a solid idea.

I think the SFM lists appeal to me most. I'm trying something closer to @Plm's list with Lingering Souls and reduced GSZ count (down to 2). Actually put Teeg in my main since the only thing he shuts off is 2 GSZ and hardcast Batterskull. Was able to win game 1 against Storm last night thanks to that guy being available. Actually went 2-0 in the league so far against Storm and Sneak/Show which was thanks to some crazy draws/luck.

Do most people here recommend 22 lands nowadays? Is 21 more ok if you have access to 2+ Deathrites? I'm leaning towards being greedy with my list. GSZ shaved in order to have 1 Painful Truths and Teeg main, with 21 lands.

[Arianrhod]

With regards to 3-colour lists with Colorless for Thought-knot, has anyone tried putting him into BUG? I know that BUG builds already have similar solutions to the same problems in Glen Elendra Archmage, but the beatdown potential of Thought-Knot could speed up the otherwise anemic game-ending abilities of the blue builds.

@Arianrhod

In the GB<> Midrange list, do you think a Tasigur might be worth it? You are running Empath, so having an immediately castable target seems useful.
In the GBW control list, do you really need all those wincons? I'd be tempted to say at least a few of them could be swapped for more interaction or filtering to make the deck less top-heavy, maybe leaving one of the 4-drops (Meren IMO, since you don't run Arbor or Nightmare) for another Deed/Deluge to capitalise on your walkers and fatties?

I don't like Tasigur in general -- I played him a bunch in Grixis Control when Cruise and Dig were around (or rather, when just Dig was...I think Cruise was banned already). He never, ever, not even once impressed me. I realize that that's a different deck than this is, but I think that most of his problems are the same here as they were there. Card's great in vintage...but realistically I just don't think he has what it takes to be playable in legacy, unless you're doing something cheesy with him and Birthing Pod (which I do think is reasonable).

For GBW, I don't actually have all that many. I still need to be able to close the game once its under control -- without Rhino in the deck, we don't have as much lifegain as we used to (this is something I'm actually very concerned about...we still have Truths and the 1 Deluge, but we only have 1 Tusk to on-demand compensate).

9 ramp (Vet + Sakura + 4 Zenith)
19 interaction (9 removal + Garruk R + Master of WH + 4 Zenith + 4 Therapy)
15 closer (8 creatures + 2 pw + Bskull + 4 Zenith)
13 manipulation/CA (E.Wit + Tracker + Meren + Gitrog + 4 Zenith + 2 Truths + 2 Top + Library)

16G 13.5B 14W

It's possible that I want another full black source somewhere. These numbers don't include Vets, Sakura, and Zenith access, though, so, it might be fine.

Anyway, the above numbers are also not counting half points (Deed/Deluge are probably .5 CA, Elspeth SC is sometimes interaction, ChamCol is a really big wolf for Master, etc). This is a deceptively interactive deck. The tradeoff for that is that it's a little more old school in its mana generation. When we started splashing red in the board for Slaughter Games, the Deathrites became mandatory as color fixing, which also pushed our ramp numbers up. Before that, though, we never used to run more than 9-10 ramp spells (as we account for them in "modern times," depended on whether 1 or 2 Sakura-Tribes).

Considering the numbers of other types of cards in the deck, I actually think that it's pretty close to spot on in terms of its ratios. Meren vs Nylea is a reasonable discussion to be had, but I think that I want Meren: Vindicate can clean up stray Karaki, and there's plenty of removal for opposing Deathrites.

[Noctalor]

Everyone is simply declaring rhino dead and moving on but to what? this enchantment centric version that you claim isn't enchantress because it doesn't play a card with that in its name, you can only be so enchantress with nic fit elements until you are just the worst parts of each archetype. Miracles is a large part of the meta but losing faith in the deck because of the lackluster matchup isn't correct, adaptation is key. Your entire post was saturated with negative connotation of which does nothing to help your cause nor your argument.

I think that adapting to miracles requires to cut rhinos, you can't afford to play a four drop that always trades even with plowshares, if you wanna have a better shot you must play noncreature spells (enchentment/pod/planeswalkers) or creatures with a reasonably good come in play, holding most of their cost in the effect instead of raw stats.

Feels like the old BG lists that used to be a thing back when RUG Delver was the top dog could do better than rhino lists against miracles, im actually missing the point of rhino at all, we already own delver MU, it is for sure poor in the combo MU and it doesn't shine in the control MU, i could be godlike against eldrazi unless they go ham with smashers but that's pretty much it.

[Ricardio]

I think that adapting to miracles requires to cut rhinos, you can't afford to play a four drop that always trades even with plowshares, if you wanna have a better shot you must play noncreature spells (enchentment/pod/planeswalkers) or creatures with a reasonably good come in play, holding most of their cost in the effect instead of raw stats.

Feels like the old BG lists that used to be a thing back when RUG Delver was the top dog could do better than rhino lists against miracles, im actually missing the point of rhino at all, we already own delver MU, it is for sure poor in the combo MU and it doesn't shine in the control MU, i could be godlike against eldrazi unless they go ham with smashers but that's pretty much it.

I think if you are jamming rhinos, PoP out of the side is your postboard game plan against miracles.

[Noctalor]

I think if you are jamming rhinos, PoP out of the side is your postboard game plan against miracles.

Anathemancer actually shits on pop if you want to follow that route, but i think we can just win a trade based game as long as we can land a pod

[Ralf]

Anathemancer actually shits on pop if you want to follow that route, but i think we can just win a trade based game as long as we can land a pod

Ah. I did try Anathemancer in Junk Pod. Too fancy, unfortunately 😎

[Jain_Mor]

@Jain_Mor
I'm curious to hear how the Wildwoods go! Seems like a solid idea.

I think the SFM lists appeal to me most. I'm trying something closer to @Plm's list with Lingering Souls and reduced GSZ count (down to 2). Actually put Teeg in my main since the only thing he shuts off is 2 GSZ and hardcast Batterskull. Was able to win game 1 against Storm last night thanks to that guy being available. Actually went 2-0 in the league so far against Storm and Sneak/Show which was thanks to some crazy draws/luck.

Do most people here recommend 22 lands nowadays? Is 21 more ok if you have access to 2+ Deathrites? I'm leaning towards being greedy with my list. GSZ shaved in order to have 1 Painful Truths and Teeg main, with 21 lands.

21 Lands is fine, though slightly greedy in my opinion (but that's why we play legacy). I cut a DRS for the 22nd land. So yea 2+ DRS in my opinion.

I used to have teeg main deck, but I did the math and the matches he was relevant against just aren't common enough and I don't find beating Storm or Sneak/Show too difficult in 3 matches. If you're running less gsun (lulwut?!) then I guess that makes him better? Though you have less access to him, so I don't know haha.

[Brael]

The MtG community can be so awesome from time to time *cough*.

It just makes it all the sweeter when I crush them with something "that's not a real deck".

Dryad Arbor did the tricky things it does last night too. Cabal Therapy, flashback off Arbor, Volrath's it to the top of library, play it with Courser, and repeat on the next turn.

I am extremely happy with Volrath's in my 75 now. Sometimes it can be a little underwhelming when it's a Wastes and you're mana starved and wishing it were a Tower, but when it's good it's great.

And that's why you run Abzan! The cards can be crazy high impact.

This may just be an inescapable truth of the deck but white just feels off for SE Fit, I'm not sure I can explain it. I have some red ideas that I think I'll try next time I can play some games on xmage though.

[Plm]

Hello everyone, been away for a while (being busy planning my wedding), but there is a BOM trial coming this sunday so I figured I could go there with next to no preparation and some beers.

Everyone is simply declaring rhino dead and moving on but to what?

The problem that we've found ourselves mired in is tied directly to the tempo of the games. We can beat the fast decks. We can beat the slow decks. We can beat the mid-range decks. We can't beat all of these things simultaneously. What we need is better scaling -- cards that are good in all stages of the game.

Somebody said stoneforge ?


So let's discuss sideboarding vs miracle (and any other decks, why not?) with stone fit.

current list, feel free to skip.

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Path to Exile

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Dryad Arbor
1 tireless tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 thrun
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Lingering Souls

1 taiga // 21 lands
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs

Yes ooze is missing, I'm currently running tracker in its slot. I've found that DRS do the grave hate impression well enough (and faster, because when I need game 1 grave hate, it is usually fast grave hate that's needed) also I needed one more must kill beater vs miracle . So bob on 'roids it is.

2 abeyance
2 slaughter games
2 duress
1 surgical
1 extirpate
1 scavenging ooze
teeg
reclamation sage
needle
zealous persecutions
toxic deluge
engineered plague

the plan vs miracle is , as jain mor summed it up : remove path and some amount of explorer/therapy

I aim to overload miracle removals (and abeyance/slaughter/surgical them), winning through brute strength (with 1/1 )

my questions are : do you left 1 explorer just to have the possibility to green sun for him ? what other cards do you side out ? what about jitte? do you side in surgical effects ?

I side jitte out because I will go to SOFI first (card draw is needed) and batterskull second (because resilience) also jitte do nothing the first time it connects , which is kind of bad.


about eldrazis, for those whom play slaughter games, do you side some in ?
I've found that the games resolve around reality smasher (yeah jain, that's the one I was talking about, that's what you get from posting half asleep).
If they play multiples ,I loose. If they play one or none, I win.
So I've started to play slaughter games in the hope of removing their worst offender preemptively.

Against combo I usually side out removal and top end threats (except sigarda vs sneak & show)

[Jain_Mor]

@ Plm, do you have thoughts/response to my reply to your original PM?

You can't leave in 1 Vet unless you leave in 2+ therapy to be honest. Do you want therapies? Do you want to spend a card giving both players 2 lands?

Edit: I'm not sure who you are even talking to haha, Navsi has said his opinion already and I've said mine. Who else plays Stone fit a lot? Qweerios isn't around much anymore. Square_Two you're new to it?

Because Nic Fit has so many variants it's hard to keep track of who plays what. @Arian do you think it would be a good idea to keep a tally of names of people that play certain versions of the deck a bunch in the primer. That way when new people arrive they can call out / PM the appropriate people, and when people want to discuss things they know who to look out for? Maybe that's just a pain in the arse for you and everyone should just keep their signature updated with lists.. (updating mine as I type)

Like I want to ask now for a raise of hands for people that have a good amount of experience with Stone Fit, but that's just going to clunk up the thread potentially (or maybe it is just us 3-4 haha)

[Tom4ik]

I think if Blue Nic fit has a nice 2 card combo kill that fit it would easily be the best version but none of the options are super appealing.

I actually think of all the variants that white has to offer he Thune combo is probably the best option. Turbo thune can sometimes race slower combo (especially with discard disruption and it allows you to present lethal with a variety of cards. If I decide to pick up a non blue nic fit deck I may look into building a thune combo deck. People already play 5 drop angels and Thune isnt terrible on its own. With Stronghold and witness the combo can be fairly durable to put together. It can win the turn you play it but even if not it means you have the time to grind out the game.

[Plm]

@ Plm, do you have thoughts/response to my reply to your original PM?

Was typing but real life interfered.

You can't leave in 1 Vet unless you leave in 2+ therapy to be honest. Do you want therapies? Do you want to spend a card giving both players 2 lands?

Good point , I was banking on tower to sacrifice dora, but yeah maybe side out the 4 of them.

Edit: I'm not sure who you are even talking to haha, Navsi has said his opinion already and I've said mine. Who else plays Stone fit a lot? Qweerios isn't around much anymore. Square_Two you're new to it?

I'm talking to every body because if we do all our discutions by PM, people might get the impression that stone fit is dead. (see scape wish and pod...)

This way any body can chime in.

All are welcome in the order of the mystics (junk fit is ripe with cults between the curch of the holy rhino and the angel horde of thune )

Like I want to ask now for a raise of hands for people that have a good amount of experience with Stone Fit, but that's just going to clunk up the thread potentially (or maybe it is just us 3-4 haha)

Yeah good idea. Sign me in.