Stop teasing us and post the list, please! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
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Stop teasing us and post the list, please! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
I'm really curious how wingmate roc was in that pod list. is it better then having the sometimes clunky i win thune combo?
I think the wingmate roc is just another 5ccm drop "podable" into Dromoka.
Obviously, you don't want to sac Sigarda when you have already use Shriekmaw.
The list is very close to what I have suggested and I think everyone here would like to hear some of the choices made by this German Wizard. At least here are a few things I'd like to hear back:
- Why Rhino ?
- Why no Meren ?
- Why Qasali Pridemage instead of Reclamation Sage (better against Infect but nonbo with Pod) ?
- Why Tidehollow instead of Sin Collector.
- How many games won on Dromoka's backfoot ?
Hi.
Does anybody takes into account http://media.wizards.com/2015/ogw_23...2xAXRdWQSW.png in scapeshift lists?
This one (two) looks cool on paper with Courser.
Any thoughts?
I think it is a very decend card that could potentially be a 4/4 Trample, while able to protect lands from wasteland or bounce them for additional Valakut triggers. It is good that it is out of reach for both Decay as Bolt.
3-3-drop at Mythic; opted to leave early and try to beat the weather rather than play the last round for an outside, unlikely angle at $75. 67 people this month, which is a great sign for northeast legacy -- it keeps growing every month.
I played the exact list I last posted, without any of the changes Warden suggested. Most of the reason for that is because I just didn't have time to revisit the deck before the event -- I'd written out my decklist several days in advance and just flat ran out of time due to real life shenanigans and couldn't make any edits.
Here's how the day went -- my thoughts on the list / concept will be at the end.
R1: Mark with BGu turbolandishthing
This was basically a modern deck. As is the way of Nic Fit, it was also absolutely terrifying for me because it was going far larger than any legacy deck is //supposed// to, and his deck attacked along an axis that I was rather unprepared for. Game one is super grindy. He gets out an early Courser (hey, we play that card!) and gets a ton of value off of it, following it up with an Oracle of Mul Daya (hey, we sometimes play that card too >_>). He does some Loam things, I do some Nic Fit things. Then he plays Ob Nixilis, the Fallen. People who've been in the thread for a while will know that I've thought about trying that guy out a couple of times. I'm pretty terrified at this point; he has Loam and several Ghost Quarters in play, and I'm only at 14. I try to slide into a tempo strategy while digging for a Therapy, so I can bounce + discard Ob, but I don't find it. I've got a ConSphinx out, though, that's drawing me a million cards while flying for 4, so there's that. He drains me down very low at one point, but I'm able to gain just enough life off of a Thragtusk AND Rhino in the same turn to live for another one. I Venser his Ob, Decay on of his Worm Harvest tokens so Rhino can trample better (!!!), and swing in for lethal, ending the game at a balmy 4 life.
Scary as fuck.
For sideboarding, I decide to treat my opponent's deck like a combo deck, but I opt to edge greedy since he was only using his Ghost Quarters to target his own lands; he saw that I play a ton of basics in game one, so I gamble that he won't GQ me. I came to this decision based on the fact that I need lifegain so stay in the running vs Ob Nix. I took out the Decays, brought in Pulse, and did some other things I don't remember.
Game two is an exercise in Cabal Therapy skills. I had to apologize to people a lot today; my Therapy game was on point. On turn two I Therapy him, blind hitting a Courser. His hand is Worm Harvest, Overgrown Tomb, Delta, Ghost Quarter. He spins around to make sure nobody is signalling me behind him, and then resumes playing lands and passing. I come to the conclusion on turn 4 that he's going to Worm Harvest on 5 and then untap into Ob Nix + landfall on 6, so when he Harvests on 5 as expected, I Therapy him calling Ob Nix and blind hit again, then untap into Slaughter Games on his Worm Harvest. He never recovers and I beat him to death just as the round enters time.
R2: Brian on Elves
As I see his name on the play list, I feel like I've played vs or seen his name before. My mind puts him on either Delver or Death and Taxes. I wish.
I don't have much to say about this match. Game one he t2 Glimpses off DRS + Quirion, draws like 6 or 7 cards because Birchlore + 1-drops is stupid, but eventually draws into ALL FOUR SYMBIOTES and has to stop. I get to Therapy him, calling Natural Order, and see verdant, forest, qurion, the other symbiotes (two were in play, didn't know about these two till therapy), and a visionary. I flashback to take the Visionary so he can't do bullshit. He untaps, draws Natural Order, and kills me.
Game two he makes some durdles on turn one....maybe on turn two as well? Either way, by the end of turn 3, he has a Progenitus in play and I just die. I don't recall if he NO'd on turn 2 or turn 3, either way I was super dead. I had a fringe possible out whereby I think I could've made 10 mana off Phyrexian Tower + Veteran (one had already been Towered earlier), and I had the Deed in play, but he had an Abrupt Decay for it on my endstep so it didn't matter anyway.
Welcome to why I loathe elves.
R3: Someone whose name I forgot to write down with RUG DELVER OMG <3
I didn't realize how much I missed playing against this deck until I played against this deck again.
Game one my hand is super weird -- it's 3x therapy, 3x lands, and Nissa. Therapy is a card I always want in my opening hand in multiples, so I wasn't complaining. I blind hit Brainstorm on turn one, and see Stifle, Forked Bolt, L. Bolt, 2 Goyfs, and a Strand. He plays a strand and passes, and then I obliterate his hand. I first take the Stifle with the swamp already in play, and then fetch for Bayou to take out his Goyfs. He draws another Goyf and plays it, but Deed wipes out his Goyf and Delver a turn or two later, after flashing back a Therapy to hit another Stifle (he revealed it off Delver). I eventually bond Rhino and Deadeye, and kill him.
Game two he has to mull to 5 vs my mull to 6, and we end up in a situation where he has Waste x2 + Volc vs my basics. I Therapy naming Goyf, hit 2, and then flashback to take out his 2x Mongoose that comprised the entire rest of his hand. He never really recovers, and I end the game at 22. He had to Rough/Tumble to wipe out my DRS x2 + Veteran x2 with a Meren in play. That did not end well for him.
R4: Adam with Enchantress
I've known Adam for a large number of years now -- he played at Jupiter back in the day and is usually playing some kind of sweet control/landstill/prison deck. I forgot that he was on Enchantress until he played a Wild Growth on turn 1. Game one is basically just me Deeding him repeatedly until he succumbs. He rebuilt 3-4 times, but I just kept sweeping him, Therapying him, and pressuring him with Rhino. Witness had a part to play in this; at one point I had to pay 6 mana to Deed for 2 because of Suppression Field.
Realistically, if I hadn't gone t1 Therapy (hit Argothian Enchantress blind) into t2 Explorer + Tower -> Jace TMS, I probably wouldn't have won this game. I had a super broken opener, though, and it carried me the rest of the way. I got to kill him through Solitary Confinement via Zenithing for Rhino to drain him out, though, which was sweet. Life loss and not damage ftw.
I leave the Rhinos in again here while bringing in Slaughter Games for his Emrakul, which I believe is his lone wincon. Rhinos stayed in because I never saw a hint of red for Blood Moon, and because the lifeloss trigger on them proved too relevant vs Solitary Confinement, which is his main way of locking me out.
Game two is a flurry of discard and removal. I get to Notion Thief 2x enchantress triggers, which is sweet; unfortunately they're off of a Journey to Nowhere that's exiling my Thief. Sadface. He gets Karmic Justice out, but is pretty low -- I can't beat that card, but soldier on anyway. He eventually lands Solitary with enchantresses out and I feel pretty dead, but he misread a card in his hand as an Enchantress's Presence when it's actually an Argothian, and that prevents him from keeping Solitary up, so he scoops to me a couple minutes before time hits. If that hadn't happened, we probably would've drawn the match -- I would've had a whole nother match to try to hit Slaughter, but then killing him before time runs out would've been hard.
R5: Someone whose name I can't read my own handwriting (Trevor?) with Grixis Delver
In which our hero finally comes to the realization that he's not giving this deck nearly enough credit.
I've been fairly consistently losing to Grixis Delver the last couple of months, and it's taken me until now to realize that it's a problem somewhere on my end. It's not them god drawing me or anything like that -- the games are frequently close, but I've been treating it like "just another delver deck," and playing vs it the same way I've been playing vs Delver for years...but that's not working. I'm not sure if it's the raw speed of the deck, how wide it goes, the Therapies out of the board, the fact that it plays Deathrite (but then why isn't bug delver a problem?), or what -- probably it's a combination of all of the above. Regardless, I intend on fixing that next month.
Anyway.
Game one is super tight. I get out a fast pair of Veterans which he absolutely refuses to swing into even as he grows a board of Young Peezy tokens, which gives me a ton of time. I engineered a board state whereby I resolve Con Sphinx, but it costs me both of my Veterans (one off Tower, and the other off Therapy flashback). He realizes that he's doomed if he keeps hanging back, so he starts swinging aggressively. I Zenith up a Tusk and play a Deathrite, but he has just enough to kill me with a Deathrite activation for exactsies after swinging on the following turn. If I'd had literally one more untap step, I would've been stabilized. It was that close.
Game two isn't really a match. I keep a slightly greedy hand and get appropriately punished for it. The hand was solid overall -- Veteran, two Strix, Witness, and Decay. The lands were Forest and Tropical. He Forces my turn one-on-the-play Vet, and plays a Deathrite. From there he goes into Wasteland + Young Peezy. I draw another Trop, but then my hand gets obliterated before my next draw step, which was a Misty Rainforest. At this point it doesn't matter, and I'm dead pretty quickly from there after another Force of Will on my Hail Mary deed.
R6: Keith with Imperial Painter
I was sitting next to him in R5, so I know what he's on and assume he knows the same of me.
Game one I nuke his hand with Therapy, but he has a Top in play and gets Grindstone out. His Spellskite protects his Grindstone from my Decay, but he pops Top into City of Traitors to slam Painter and activate before I can untap into Deed. Turn 4 kill if I recall correctly.
Game two he opens with Leyline of Sanctity, which obliterates my gameplan of 2x Therapy into Ashiok into Slaughter Games (with the lands to cast in my hand). He has the combo on turn 3.
//////
Okay, thoughts on the deck.
//////
-) It's sweet. The colors were only ever a problem for me once on the entire day, and that was mostly because I was an idiot and mis-managed something. Even when both the Slaughters and the Rhinos were in together, I never had problems casting anything. The worst thing that I noticed sometimes was that I could've used one more blue source in play occasionally, so I could've played and protected Deadeye Nav. Realistically -1 Trop +1 Sea should probably happen, as I noticed I was a hair short on black sometimes as well.
-) It has enough power to smash anything that's trying to control the game. Seriously, if the meta shifts to be more controlling in my area -- if people start playing Miracles and Shardless and Stoneblade again, I would play this version again so fast.
-) Rhino fixed the problems that I had with BUG as a whole, as expected. Suddenly I could actually kill people. Trample was relevant. Draining for 3 /life loss/ was relevant. The card was frankly more impressive in this version than it's ever been for me in my more traditional white builds.
-) Meren finally performed today, although several of my opponents couldn't manage to figure out what exactly she did or how she worked until she did things. Venser, on the other hand, was awful all day. It was only something I was happy to see once -- the rest of the time, it just didn't do anything. This may be a side-effect of the meta being super fast at the moment, but he's being cut regardless.
-) Ashiok and Nightmare were basically never drawn. I got Ashiok out vs BGu Ob Nix.dec in round one and it got immediately Pulsed, which is fine. I also played it vs Elves and took one of his Visionaries that I later used to try to dig for an out to Progenitus, so that was kind of cool I guess. I only ever saw Nightmare once on the day, and I put it back on a Jacestorm and shuffled it away because enchantress in game one and I just wanted to draw a million Pernicious Deeds.
-) Sphinx overperformed as it always does. Deadeye only got played once, vs RUG Delver, but it did win that game. I noticed that I was having issues finding my bombs, and wonder if a Fierce Empath may actually just be required here, as much as I hate that idea.
-) The metagame was way too quick for Painful Truths. My roommate was playing Scape (2-3-d; hadn't played the deck in >1 year and literally threw a match away in r2, kind of tilted from there) and noticed the same problem -- he never had a chance to draw cards because he was too busy trying to avoid dying. I've gained a level of respect for casting that card, but the metagame at Mythic, at least, is just wrong for it. I wish I could get away with it.
-) Jace was solid but unimpressive, which has basically always been my impression of Jace in Nic Fit. He's a solid card flow bot, but rarely does anything other than be a Leyline of Brainstorm.
-) I really missed having a 2-drop ramp bro to Zenith for. I wanted it multiple times on the day, and it was never there.
////
To sum:
////
-1 Trop
+1 Sea
-1 Venser
+1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
-1 Ashiok
-2 Painful Truths
+3 Brainstorm
-1 Thragtusk
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Strix
+1 Fierce Empath??? :/
***
disclaimer: not entirely sure about this one still. I abhor Empath in Nic Fit anymore, but since this version gets the two LITERALLY STRONGEST 6-drops any Nic Fit can play, it might actually be worth it.
-sb
+sb
***
Slaughters and Taiga is fine. The rest is up for debate and needs to be re-thought somewhat. The Notion Thief probably stays in, though, as does the Glen Elendra.
For those keeping track, this puts us here:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Deadeye Navigator
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Mana Confluence
1 Phyrexian Tower
//sb
3 Slaughter Games
1 Taiga
1 Notion Thief
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
9 other cards
-------------------------
I doubt I'll play this version again next month, but that's almost entirely because of metagame concerns more than anything else. This is definitely something I see myself playing again, and I recommend its adoption if anyone wants to also work on it.
My goal for next month is probably to play a more traditional white version with 3x Carpet of Flowers in the sideboard. I need to be able to be faster and make more mana quicker to deal with Grixis Delver, I think. It's possible that a grindier, more removal-heavy approach is fine -- but that almost requires playing Painful Truths in order to catch up on cards, and I'm far from convinced that I'm going to maindeck that card next month. Sideboard, maybe sure. Maindeck? Ehhhhhh scared. Mostly I just want to resolve turn 2 Baneslayers and make Delver & Friends collectively cry.
We'll see where I end up -- I've got some time to think about it. For now, I'm honestly quite pleased with how this experiment turned out.
./././
PS
./././
Did something happen to the post counters on Source? Pretty sure I've got way more than 400-some posts.
A Very unorganized list
Main:
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Witness
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Thragtusk
2 Siege Rhino
3 Forest
2 Badlands
3 Swamp
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Primeval Titan
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Bayou
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Painful Truths
3 Punishing Fire
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Mountain
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
Board
2 Dread of Night
2 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pyroblast
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 From the Ashes
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Krosan Grip
1 thrun, the Last Troll
O man, my head is exploding. NicFit goodstuff is all over the place.
ScapeWish, i am currently toying with an idea that has a different approach on the creature base. When i am ready to post a list i will, but the new block presents a solid option to use landfall based creatures that can aggro pretty hard and gives another angle to close out games. Some kind of inevitability.
Arianrhod, Thank you for that report, always a nice read. Still not to convinced about warping BUG into a 5c monster. That Deadeye Navigator tech is pretty sweet. Isn't it an option to stick to BUG color's and splash a Colorless in there with 1 basic Wastes or so? Though-Knot Seer bouncing looks sweet, combined with ConSphinx it becomes really sic. Edit: the Deaeye+Thought-knot starts to get more interesting the more i think about it. If you end of opponents draw step activate the Deadeye ability on Thought-Knot, your opponent first draws his 2nd card and then you get to exile one.
Or less interesting but optional, Void Grafter. Or Empath into Worldbreaker/Endbringer.
JBone, that list is exactly what to make of it when i was talking Rhino's into JunD. You pack nearly everything you'd want to see in such a list, but something feels off. Only 3 Veteran and 1 DRS in a 4 color list. How consistently where you able to develop your manabase? And sorted the list, it was unbearable.
Quote:
Main 61:
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Painful Truths
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
Board
2 Dread of Night
2 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pyroblast
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 From the Ashes
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Krosan Grip
1 thrun, the Last Troll
Hello, Nic Fitters,
This is where I am right now on Scapeshift.
I knew Painful Truth could successfully be included in a Jund Fit list and I can tell that, from all the tests I've run during Christmas break, it is really working well.
MD is 60 cards so that you could add 1 meta slot if you want.
The list is featuring only 10 mountains for only 1 Scape MD. During our tests, those choices never came up as an issue either to find a scape or to have enough mountains left for a straight kill.
However, having access to 12 black sources was very handy; mulligan wise & color wise !
SB still needs some "fine tuning" but I guess time will help us to find a good balance.
Here is the list, and I hope you will enjoy it as much as we do:
Valakut Truth by Ralf
Lands
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wood Elves
2 Thragtusk
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Veteran Explorer
Artifacts
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed
Sorceries
1 Scapeshift
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Painful Truths
4 Burning Wish
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Sideboard
1 Dryad Militant
1 Fiery Confluence
1 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Massacre
1 Innocent Blood
3 Slaughter Games
1 Scapeshift
2 Thoughtseize
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
Have fun !
@Ralf: that Scapewish list hurts itself a LOT. My roommate was dying to Grixis Delver with the same creature lifegain suite, no maindeck Thoughtseizes, and only 2 maindeck Truths.
No matter how much I want to play with Painful Truths in legacy, I don't think that the format is right for it. At least, not in my area. Games are too fast.
Why the 2nd Stomping Ground over the 4th Taiga? Last minute drop of the 4th Taiga, I'm guessing?
Only one maindeck Scapeshift surprises me. I know the Truths help you dig and all, but I've always found 2 main / 1 side for "6 total copies" thanks to Wish to be a happy balance. Relying on Wish is dangerous, since it gets hit by Spell Snare (not very popular at the moment, I know), Counterbalance more frequently, and Hydroblast/BEB.
I still wish Dryad Militant didn't hose your Cabal Therapies. I want that card to be one-sided so badly :(
-----------------------------
Since I found out that there's a "sixth color" now, I've been toying with the idea of a BGC version of the deck. The biggest draw immediately was Kozilek 2.0, obviously -- giving Nic Fit a draw 7 and counter-control is pretty unreasonable. I didn't really give it too much thought until the full set spoiler was out.
The two reasons to play a BGC version are easily Matter Reshaper and Warping Wail. Both of these cards are ramp that offer additional utility:
-) Matter Reshaper is a 3/2 for 3, which is a decent rate, and it's Nissa-style card advantage. It either puts the top card of your deck (which we can cheat with Top) into play when it dies (which we run sac outlets already anyway), or you just flat draw the card. It's very noteworthy that Reshaper lets you put lands into play when it dies.
-) Warping Wail is a 2-mana ramp spell (from 2->4, which is a strong jump); it'll exile Young Peezy, SFM, DRS, unflipped Delvers, Cliques, and some other random garbage; and it'll counter a sorcery -- Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Show and Tell, Green Sun, Natural Order (seeing a theme here?), Painful Truths, Terminus/Entreat, etc. This card does a LOT OF THINGS.
Thought-Knot is decent. It's got a good cip trigger and a chunky body. Unfortunately they get the card when it leaves play, not just when it dies, so StP is still live, as is Jace bouncing it. While the card is certainly reasonable and I'm fine including it, it's not a reason to play the deck.
Bearer of Silence is close to being very good, but I think that not being able to block unfortunately removes it from the discussion.
Endbringer and Worldbreaker aren't even good enough, I don't think. I'd sooner play a Wurmcoil over either of them.
Anyway, I finally started tinkering with my first look at a BGC list this morning, and I'll present that now:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Matter Reshaper
1 Eternal Witness
2 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Warping Wail
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Harmonize
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
3 Sensei's Divining Top
5 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wastes
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Cloudpost
3 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of ugin
//sb
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Krosan Grip
1 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Disfigure
1 Nether Void
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Trinisphere
2 Thoughtseize
Obviously this is rough and needs some testing and tuning. I think that it's a reasonable place to look for a deck, though. The defining cards in this deck are going to be /very/ good, it's just a matter of finding the correct shell for them, I think.
Some notes:
-) I'm tired of not having a Sakura-Tribe in my deck.
-) 4-ofs in Nic Fit are withheld for all-star engine pieces: traditionally Vet, Therapy, and sometimes Zenith are all we ever run as 4-ofs. Matter Reshaper can be added to that list. Maybe my opinion will lessen once I actually play with the card, but the more I look at it, the more I think that that card is completely unreasonable. We're talking uncounterable Deeds here, people.
-) I think that 2 maindeck Thought-Knots with another in the board is probably the correct split for TKS if you want to run him. He's not 3-of Siege Rhino territory good, but he's still something that you can't Zenith for and that you generally want to see one of every game. Our default for that type of card is a 2-of (see also Baneslayer).
-) Meren/Nightmare with Reshaper is going to be obnoxious and wonderful.
-) Harmonize because C doesn't count for Painful Truths. I'm of the opinion that we've all been critically undervaluing how strong card draw is in Nic Fit for a long time now, and Truths has shown us how wrong we were. I know I've personally been content to sit on my virtual ca, x-for-ones, and Tops and be happy with that. Actually having a couple Ancestral Recalls in the deck adds several dimensions to the archetype, and is something I'm interested in moving forward (whether that's Truths or another option is up for debate).
-) 2 maindeck Deluge, no maindeck spot removal. I'm starting to lean that 3 Deed 2 Deluge is a fine removal suite maindeck. Maybe a Pulse or Vindicate in some versions would be fine just as an additional catch-all, but I think that maindecking some Deluges is actually really good right now. Young Pyro is very obnoxious and I'm tired of losing to it. If that means I need some extra sweepers, so be it. Also, FUCK ELVES.
-) Ob Nix is going to get a trial run in the main. The dream scenario is he takes out a Goyf and then draws a couple cards, while alternatively drawing a million cards until ult vs Miracles.
-) Primeval -> posts -> space monsters. I want to run that Kozilek, which means I need nuclear-level mana production. Reshapers should help a lot, but if I want to get to Kozilek, I need Primeval Titan. Since we're two real colors, there's a bunch of room in the mana base to work with, and I want to try out a modified cloudpost engine. It gives us some extra life gain and some extra mana production. Also, even if you cast Primeval with 0 posts in play, tutoring for 2x cloudpost off his trigger gets you to Kozilek next turn. It's possible that that's good enough, but at the point at which I'm even starting down this road, I'd like the ability to go full nuclear with Eye and Emrakul.
-) On the subject of Eye, Eye CURRENTLY makes Reshaper cost C and TKS cost 1C, which is already good for us. If Eye is errata'd to reduce the costs of colorless Eldrazi by CC instead, Eye becomes very, very good in this deck, and not just pretty alright.
-) Sideboard is basically just an amalgam of Delver and combo hate. This deck inherits enough from our 12post brethren that Miracles is probably? super easy? And even then, it's not like there aren't cards to bring in vs Miracles -- Carpets, Pulse, Decay, Grips.
-) Being straight GB allows for room for all the sweet GB sideboard options, like Disfigure and Krosan Grip, that we rarely get to play in tricolor lists. KGrip is probably very important with the cloudpost engine, since it gives us a way of cleanly dealing with Blood Moon.
Definitely still just a concept -- not saying this is the next great thing, but I wanted to point out that this type of deck could exist now moving forward and offer a possible sketch of it.
I'm going to work on developing it a bit and do some testing, should be able to report back in a couple days with a better idea of it.
@Arianrhod It's already done and it was done in 2014 http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Nic-Feat-8Post you should really look there.
I found that new Eldrazi's are just cute nothing more let me describe why I think they aren't so useful in Nic Fit builds:
Thought-Knot Seer - Clique like exile effect. Bigger body (4/4 - still not enough vs most goyfs), but it is missing the two biggest things which makes Clique good - Flash and Flying, without it we just have medicore creature which will cycle card. Look from build which Nic feat 8post want to achieve - it doesn't ramp, it's expensive (4 mana is quite a lot). I still use Solemn since: it ramp, which gives me next turn titan, and also cantrip when dies. Thought-Knot Seer looks probably better in some faster Eldrazi Aggro which probably will be some stompy deck with Trinisphere/Chalice, but even there for 4 mana we have 4/4 flying, haste dragons which have build in protection white..
Matter Reshaper - This one looks quite decent also, but to gain advantage from it - it have to die like Veteran. With again body 3/2 it will die from most ground threads (look on Thalia..). But the price from it's dead isn't so big - you gain CA with build-in development if drawn card is cmc 3. It's not bad really - but it doesn't help in build, I rather use Wood Elves which trigger etb (so almost always, stifle happens) stabilize mana ad hoc so needed to win. Similar like upper Seer it's rather Aggro with build in conditional CA (Swords to Plowshares really exist..).
Warping Wail - This card is probably best it is: removal / permission / one shot ramp and all of this for 1C - I really like it. Not sure how many should be on MD/SB since I found there aren't too many cards which I wanted to counter. Terminus ? Isnt a problem, S&T - yes - that's for sure but since S&T started again playing with sneak - I think Sneak is much more dengerous - specially If you running 4 Titans + MD Karakas. EtA from miracles - Pernicious Deed most time waiting for them. ANT - yes for sure, same like other things like Hymn to Tourach and other discard spells. In summary I still don't know how good is it vs meta, but for sure some of them will find place in 75.
In this build you need totally different SB Burn and Elves will be very bad Matchups without dedicated sb plan it will always be a lose. Also no cheap spot removal mean really hard times vs Tempo like turn 1 delver which flips - I don't like it. Vs Elves you can easy use Glacial Chasm and some Crop Rotation which are great as:
- Gy hate (bojuka)
- Karakas finder
- Mana Boost - like dark ritual connected with Veteran - just Tower finder
- Wastelands hate
- Chasm vs Burn Price of Progress or Elves final strike.
But this is just my opinion - from Nic feat 8post build. I think new Eldrazies will find spots for sure but in rather Aggro with good CA plan deck.
If your roommate is still involved in Scape, give the list a go :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I can understand your concerns, right now. Grixis Delver is definitely not an easy MU.
However, during our testing, the list I have provided proved to show enough velocity to compete with Grixis Delver.
Is it because of the 2 MD TS?
Is it because of the 3rd Painful Truth ?
Is it because of Ooze ?
Is it because of the Surgical + Militant post SB?
To be perfectly honest, I dunno. The games were an uphill battle. You will lose quite a lot and you will win quite a lot as well.
This is definitely a strange MU that can be very easy to very hard.
I'd like to point out that a starting hand with: TS + CT + Veteran + Painful is something nobody should scorn.
And once you get a taste of that velocity, it is very hard to go back...
Furthermore, as I aforementioned, the list provided is only 60 cards. This gives you the opportunity to hedge a bit more against your meta.
If you really fear Grixis Delver, you can add another creature with a gain "some life" ability:
- Courser
- Baloth
- Kitchen Finks
Etc...
Edit: About Stomping Grounds, as I have cut back on a red source, I fear we wouldn't be able to use scape postboard if a taiga gets hit by a surgical effect. This might never occur but well, I 'm the guy to who weird things happen all the times... Playing 4 taiga is definitely better if you don't care about this extra hedge !
I ended up 3-3. Winning my first 3, then losing my last 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Beat Grixis Delver in
Beat D + T (for once) in 3. Was at under 5 life with the games I won.
Beat Mud in 2. From the Ashes blowout was real here.
Lost to Shardless Bug in 2. (double hymn one game really hurt)
Lost to Omni Tell in 2.
Lost to Storm in 3.
The mana has honestly been fine. Pulse and command have been lackluster (probably to just one copy each). Same with PrimeTime. I missed my Baloth in the main vs BUG.
Trying to cheat Teeg in the main seems greedy. I still want to fit a dualcaster mage in there somewhere. Or a 3rd Blast?
Tested with the BGC version vs Grixis Delver in four game-ones today, just to see how it would go. Grixis won 0 games, although two were particularly close.
Warping Wail is an all-star card, and is definitely a reason to work on a version like this.
Matter Reshaper was also quite excellent -- it put an uncounterable Deed into play once and a Top another. Its other hits ranged from Sakura-Tribe to Eye of Ugin. I think the onoly card I drew off of it vs put into play was one game I drew a Zenith off of it.
Thought-Knot was mostly useful as a 4/4 beatstick. The first game I towered it out on turn 2, which felt pretty disgusting. Otherwise, though, it definitely felt lackluster -- which, this isn't really a good matchup for the card as a whole, so, that's not surprising. I need to evaluate it vs other matchups, but it's definitely a card I've got my eye on to take out.
Glimmerpost's lifegain was surprisingly strong.
5 maindeck sweepers backed up with some spot removal felt pretty solid.
Harmonize didn't feel that good -- 4 mana was too much. Going to test Night's Whisper and Read the Bones in those slots as well to try to find out how much the life loss vs mana spent actually influences things.
Not sure how necessary Emrakul is, really. Having the -ability- to go nuclear if the game goes grindy was nice, but she only came up once in four games. Not sure, going to keep an eye on her package as well as I move forward with testing.
At this point I know I want a 4th copy of Warping Wail, and I do have the feeling that there's a deck here somewhere. I'll keep rummaging around and report back as I have more thoughts/findings.
Don't be scared to run Empath. It offers you a lot of utility (and replaces itself, which is never a bad thing). I would also include a Tasigur/Gurmag Angler when running Empath though. Being able to churn out a fatty on the same turn you cast Empath can be a lifesaver (and you can even flashback a Therapy with Empath to clear the way for that freshly tutored Delve-creature without it actually costing anything, since Empath'll replace the now exiled Therapy). Topdecking an Empath lategame can be a complete backbreaker for your opponent, especially in the blue oriented Nic Fit lists, since those put a lot less pressure on your opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
On Painful Truths: It's best suited for the BGW build. It has a lot of space for a big lifegain suite. I myself run 2/3 DRS, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Courser of Kruphix, 4 Siege Rhino (or 3 if you want to include a Thragtusk as lifegaining 5-drop) and a Dragonlord Dromoka. Whatever X I GSZ for, I can find something that gains me life.
Something I just realized as a quick bedtime thought to jot down: Warping Wail is also -VERY- good against us. It's another way to exile Explorer, and it counters Green Sun, which is one of our better cards depending on version. Scapewish additionally gets Burning Wish and Scapeshift hit, and all versions get hit on card draw and utility kill spells (Pulse/Vindicate/CJ). Deluge, Perish, Virtue's Ruin, and Massacre are all commonly played (by us) sideboard options that also get hit by Wail.
Just something to keep in mind as the format develops -- if more decks start experimenting with Wail, we could very easily get some splash hate. Or, not necessarily hate, but rather a card that's actually more effective than your average legacy card against us. I think Death and Taxes is probably the chief threat for this at the moment, although realistically if DnT is taking a turn to play Wail rather than pressuring us somehow, we're probably fine with it.
If that actually starts to happen that just means Cabal Therapy retains a lot more value in the lategame.
Strip that hand before Zenithing, man!
Also, I don't think D&T has the design room to run 12-14 C-producing lands. Heck, how many non-MUD/Turbo Eldrazi/12-post decks do..?
On the topic of Therapy, if WW shenanigans (or StP for that matter) are expected, play it safe. T1 Therapy, into T2 Veteran, hold prio, flash Therapy should dodge removal on your explorer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I already dubbed that line of play "Fuck you Daze, fuck you Plow" (or FyDFyP for short) a couple of pages back!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
When facing blue or white -> Fydfyp!
Yes, you did. And now it even becomes more relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon