Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fatal
No, I saw this. I just want to examine the paradigm and draw my own conclusions based on what I'm seeing. I've never interacted with the 8post list that you describe, so I want to start from scratch and build my own conceptualizations about what works and doesn't. Give me a week or two -- once I get a good grasp on what I've got (if, indeed, I've got anything, which I'm not entirely convinced of yet), then I'll probably look back through the 8post stuff and see if there are any ideas that can be brought forward from that.
Definitely not ignoring you, just delaying you a little bit.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Ok thank you for replay :-), actually I feel like deck is well positioned, but still unknown (Nic Fit hybrid with 8Post), too bad that I don't have any big tournaments near me (Poland) to popularize it with the good score, local testing isn't the same. I tested it vs blind meta on Cockatrice but it's still not the same as GP (next will be in Prague in half-year 2016).
Looking for feedback after you finish your testing and get good conclusions, we could compare them and I hope, find best solutions.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Has there been a discussion about oath of nissa yet?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dadadot
Has there been a discussion about oath of nissa yet?
Uh, good with Sun Titan. Otherwise more relevant to Junk/Rock decks who can overwrite it to grow Goyf or play Liliana off Wasteland. Not a card that's at all relevant to us unless Top gets axed, at which point we will probably consider it in greater detail.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Warden
I like Empath and the creatures you mention. However, I disagree with Truths. I think the card is too slow (Mythic's meta = lots of fast decks -- dominated by quality Delver pilots). I already run Tasigur. I like the idea of Empath ---> Tasigur or Dragonlord Dromoka (a card I've been keeping an eye on). Maybe Karador fits into this lineup as well.
Hmm, I've never had that much trouble with Truths in my Junk build vs. anyDelver.dec. But I do run a different, cheaper removal suite than most. Besides, any Delver-infested meta should mean good times for Any Fit and especially Junk Fit.
In long games Karador is the stone cold nuts. When unanswered, it can completely turn a game around in 1 or 2 turns. I run it combined Empath and will not even consider ever taking it out. As for my 6+ drop suite, I run a Tasigur (for now), a Dromoka and a Karador. Tasigur may or may not go eventually, I've yet to decide. Dromoka and Karador are there to stay. Tasigur basically is the only flexslot I've got at the moment. The problem is that GSZ for Empath into a same turn Tasigur costs the same amount of mana as GSZ for Siege Rhino. There are the corner cases where you might want to flashback a Cabal Therapy whilst maintaining pressure on the board or where you want to keep an extra body around for Diabolic Intent, but I have yet to run into that. On the other hand, the alternative is that Tasigur would become DRS #3 and that doesn't really tickle my fancy. I may just keep the trick in, in case I need it.
That being said, to abuse Karador you do have to make sure you actually get to the lategame.
@Dadadot: It has been discussed briefly and found wanting.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
@ Echelon What does your current Karador list looks like? (In the meanwhile it is waay back and stopped searching).
@Arianrhod What makes Sakura-Tribe Elder you going nuts? (In non-scapeshift lists that is).
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
@ Echelon What does your current Karador list looks like? (In the meanwhile it is waay back and stopped searching).
@Arianrhod What makes Sakura-Tribe Elder you going nuts? (In non-scapeshift lists that is).
Not entirely sure I understand the phrasing, but I'm guessing you want to know why I'm running Sakura as much as I am?
Mostly it comes down to wanting to get a 1-sided ramp creature off Zenith, and/or a ramp creature that doesn't require a sac outlet to work. If you can Zenith Sakura, and you have a land to play for your next turn, that ramps from 3->5, which is a pretty important skip. 5s tend to be our most impactful creatures, and it also allows for 4s with Daze protection.
The other thing to keep in mind is that while Sakura is kind of uninspiring on the face of it, the card has a ton of little synergies that people tend to forget about. You can fog Batterskull or Jitte with recursion. You can get rid of Bridge from Belows. You can ramp experience counters with Meren. You can set up early Nightmare loops by putting it in the graveyard. You can sit an on-demand Top shuffle in play for whenever you need to go digging. And so on.
The importance of the card is primarily based off of its value in the Zenith toolbox as a ramper and a color fixer that requires neither a sac outlet nor an opponent with limited basics, though, for sure. I felt its absence when I was playing Ultimate Fit at Mythic this month pretty harshly -- there were at least four scenarios where I wanted access to Sakura off Zenith and I just didn't have it in the list to get.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arianrhod
Not entirely sure I understand the phrasing, but I'm guessing you want to know why I'm running Sakura as much as I am?
Yes, thank you for your answer.
@Echolon, find your list, but is it up-to-date?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Yes, thank you for your answer.
@Echolon, find your
list, but is it up-to-date?
@Bobman, that was him tinkering with the idea of exploration. I would assume (clues in what he said above)
-3 exploration
+2 DRS
+1 Tasigur
*insert changes to diabolic intent and the removal package
I would assume Echolon runs Abrupt Decays in the MD. It's the best removal card in the format.
@Echolon: Thanks for the response. Very informative.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
@ Echelon What does your current Karador list looks like? (In the meanwhile it is waay back and stopped searching).
Oh my, is Karador getting some much needed love? Wow! Anways, here is my current list:
Main (60):
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Fierce Empath
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Painful Truths
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
SB (15):
3 Duress
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace
I mean to switch out a Forest for a second Phyrexian Tower but am having some trouble finding one, unfortunately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Warden
I would assume Echolon runs Abrupt Decays in the MD. It's the best removal card in the format.
@Echolon: Thanks for the response. Very informative.
Your most welcome. I don't run ADs though. In a format where Grixis Delver is a thing, it's nice to have answers to a resolved Gurmag Angler. And PtE also does quite some work vs. the decks that can go larger than us (hey, nice Blightsteel Colossus/Wurmcoil Engine/Merit Lage token you have there). Vs. anyDelver.dec we're already favored anyways so screw counters/Lilliana. Heck, people frequently even board out a number of Dazes and/or FoWs vs. us, yay! As for stuff you would use AD for - apart from planeswalkers (though 4 mana Jace is the biggest pain in the ass, which is not answered by AD), Pernicious Deed is quite the omni-tool. Yes, I do miss AD when facing Miracles. But that's about it. In my opinion, PtE is the top removal card in the format and playing the full 4 has been a wonderful thing so far. I get that the standard removal suite is a thing of beauty, but with a little bit of creativity one can eliminate a couple of cards from it simply b/c you can answer some things in different ways. Lilliana for instance doesn't necessarily need an AD/Maelstrom Pulse to be answered. Fetching a Dryad Arbor in response of the -2 ability and smashing her in the face with any creature the following turn works quite well, for example. And if your opponent has a blocker - PtE it, you were probably going to do that anyway.
More often than not, your PtEs will target stuff that's smaller than your own creatures so you're usually fine with it getting countered if that means your opponent can't counter your GSZ/Siege Rhino anymore. Also, if it does get countered it'll probably be by a FoW rather than a Daze (I mean, who PtEs vs. a deck that runs Dazes without leaving mana open for said Daze?). That's a 2-for-1 in our favor, which is a game most decks can't play for too long vs. us.
That being said, I find myself Diabolic Intent-ing (and Eternal Witnessing) for PtE more than anything else. Most decks you face are relatively light on threats, so having enough PtEs means your opponent won't be attacking you which in turn means you get the time you need to deploy the big guns and CA engines.
So in short, I prefer PtE vs. AD b/c it often'll do the same for less mana (and uses the least intensively used mana colour we have as opposed to the BG needed by AD) and offers some upsides vs. troubling MUs. Furthermore, neither matter in our worst MUs - TES and ANT so AD wouldn't win us any ground there. Luckily, I rarely run into Miracles at my LGS. If I did, I'd probably run a couple of AD in my SB. It's a hard MU.
Courser of Kruphix is another all star in the list. I run an insane amount of shuffling effects. Once in the late game you just shuffle away whatever crappy card floats on top and filter out lands whenever you can, works like a charm. Sometimes it's very good to know not to shuffle b/c there is a gamebreaking Siege Rhino/PtE on the top of your library.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
Oh my, is Karador getting some much needed love? Wow! Anways, here is my current list:
Yes, cool cards deserve attention. The fact that your looking into cmc 8 means that there is room for flexibility aside of streamlining. Me looking into a Jund list supporting Omnath has opened my eyes to look further. Your list deserves a try and is inspiring me to look and go beyond, so i ordered all the missing cards (japanese variants obviously, aswell as consphinx, deadeye and Omnath). Currently i am brewing something unorthodox in Jund. My fear is that the new Eldrazi might be omni present (at first at least) so Stp/PtE is the most logical choice. That gave ideas for Junk aswell. Also i am reshaping the earlygame a bit and found the decks ramping capabilities surprisingly high and not bound to Junk, Jund or BUG. Time to exploit. I have always tried to hunt a more attrition-like midgame plan with more efficient creatures, but going bigger is what actually compliments NicFit.
In my testing with Omnath i was able to land that elemental every single game so far. Even vs DnT with Thalia out thru a GSZ (StP was no problem at that point).
Karador makes a lot of sense, especially along Fierce Empath, because you can GSZ into it for 9, GSZ into it with Fierce and hardcast it for reduced cost, etc.
In my search i am trying to find out how far i can push it.
So My biggest question is, how do find yourself getting Karador on the battlefield most of the times?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Well obviously not by way of GSZ for X = 8. That just does not happen.
When Karador hits the field, it'll be for its reduced cost (which is the only reason I play it). I've paid anything from the best case 3 to 6 mana to cast Karador so far. Casting it for around 5/6 mana would be the most common case, assuming we haven't been hit with sweepers and the game hasn't been going that incredibly long yet. This usually happens when I naturally draw into it or Fierce Empath (and don't have the mana to cast Dromoka yet. Even though it's fun to durdle, it's usually more effective to just smash face).
Actively searching for Karador (be it via GSZ into Empath or Diabolic Intent) mostly happens during long games where I have a nice, big graveyard to feed from, effectively letting me "draw" an extra creature card every turn. In that case you're slowly undoing all spotremoval and sweepers your opponent has cast so far. Assembling Karador + Meren means your opponent must sweep them both in one turn (or exile them, obviously) otherwise the first one just recurs the second one and vice versa.
Do remember that with a single Diabolic Intent in hand and a creature (or green fetchland) on the field you can assemble our beloved engine out of nowhere:
- Intent for Eternal Witness
- Cast Witness and return Intent
- Intent Witness for Meren/Karador
- Cast said Meren/Karador
- Recur Witness and return Intent
- Intent Witness again to get Phyrexian Tower (or PtE/Pernicious Deed if you don't already have one in your GY and then get Phyrexian Tower. Or, vs artifact based decks during games 2/3, fetch Qasali Pridemage to just be done with it)
- ???
- Profit!
Sure, it takes a couple of turns, but you probably won't be doing this until your opponent is in topdeck mode and you have a large number of lands out. This ensures you manoeuvre to a position that your opponent can't fight himself out of, especially when you're pairing up Karador AND Meren (when you have the engine up and running with either one, it's a piece of cake to find the other one). Your deck basically turns into a boa constrictor that squeezes the life out of your opponent bit by bit until your opponent succumbs. Heck, it allows you to go over the top of decks that usually go over our top. Eventually you manage to destroy more of your opponents cards per turn than your opponent draws, leaving your opponent with a stack of lands and a topdeck/turn (if your opponent starts amassing a hand, just cycle Eternal Witness and Cabal Therapy every turn whilst proceeding to smash face).
Furthermore, stuff like Karador aren't things you pull off/go for vs. anyDelver.dec normally. Vs. those decks you just smash face with Rhino and win from there. If you do manage to drop a Meren/Karador you're usually in an incredibly good place vs. those decks though, but mainly it's just overkill. It, however, gives you the reach you need vs. anything that goes bigger than us.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Considering that our biggest problem is Terminus and/or StP, how does Karador win against them? I'd like to know the meta you are playing, because it seems like a weird meta looking at your posts.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rubblekill
Considering that our biggest problem is Terminus and/or StP, how does Karador win against them? I'd like to know the meta you are playing, because it seems like a weird meta looking at your posts.
We play too many threats to be bothered just by StP.
My meta is mostly a lot of anyDelver.dec, Stoneblade, some TES/ANT, Burn, MUD, Infect, Maverick, Elves, a little bit of Miracles and Lands. Nothing too fancy.
That being said, near-everything folds to Terminus so I stopped caring. Following that logic, we should run TES (which has its own problems). When facing more Miracles I might run a Thragtusk and a number of AD, but for now I don't need them.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
We play too many threats to be bothered just by StP.
My meta is mostly a lot of anyDelver.dec, Stoneblade, some TES/ANT, Burn, MUD, Infect, Maverick, Elves, a little bit of Miracles and Lands. Nothing too fancy.
That being said, near-everything folds to Terminus so I stopped caring. Following that logic, we should run TES (which has its own problems). When facing more Miracles I might run a Thragtusk and a number of AD, but for now I don't need them.
Oh, now I understand. Seems like a good meta to play the deck.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I forgot we also have some Shardless BUG, Dredge and occasional D&T. And every once in a while we see stuff like AnyShow & Tell and the occasional Merfolks/Goblins (once in a blue moon).
So yeah, that's a pretty nice meta to be playing Nic Fit in :laugh:.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
What about resto angel? Beside the obvious tusk interaction, it seems very powerful in theory with rhino, eternal witness, all the 6cmc titans, and even with fierce empath (..). It is a surprise factor and nobody expect her.
It's not like we cannot afford a 4 mana dude.
Has anyone tested her yet? E: I'm sure you have, I'm asking for feedback.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
It's 4 CMC so it's competing with Siege Rhino & Meren, which is hard to do.
Sure, it can perform some neat combat tricks and perhaps even generate a small amount of CA but I can't GSZ for it and don't want to deliberately keep 4 (or 5 when wanting to account for Daze) mana open to trick my opponent during combat. For single shot CA we have both Fierce Empath (those who run it) and Eternal Witness. Both of which we can GSZ for and cost 1 mana less.
As far as combat goes, Siege Rhino provides a better and more robust clock. For the same CMC (and with the ability to be GSZ'd for) Meren is a source of permanent CA.
Unfortunately it does not do anything we can't already do and does all of it less efficiently than we already do.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
It's 4 CMC, so it's competing with Siege Rhino & Meren which is hard to do.
Sure, it can perform some neat combat tricks and perhaps even generate a small amount of CA but I can't GSZ for it and don't want to deliberately keep 4 (or 5 when wanting to account for Daze) mana open to trick my opponent during combat. For single shot CA we have both Fierce Empath (those who run it) and Eternal Witness. Both of which we can GSZ for and cost 1 mana less.
As far as combat goes, Siege Rhino provides a better and more robust clock. For the same CMC (and with the ability to be GSZ'd for) Meren is a permanent source of CA.
Unfortunately it does not do anything we can't already do and does all of it less efficiently than we already do.
Fair enough, thanks
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Updates for the junk build? Ricardio, Matt?
