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I think she'll be less prevalent but definitely still around. Before MM was printed, people weren't really on to her for legacy, she was just finally becoming a true powerhouse in standard at the time. Now that the jury is in on her, I think she's here to stay.
Lands 21
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
4 Plains
2 Swamp
Artifacts 7
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Body and Mind
Spells 10
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Enlightened Tutor
Creatures 22
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant
SB 15
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Meekstone
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Null Rod
1 Runed Halo
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
Remember this was pre MM and Batterskull. I don't think any of the other new swords were out yet either. If you want to read the tournament report you can find it here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...th-Hate-Crimes
Tim, did you drop Vial this summer only because of Mental Misstep?
Such build made top8 recently (before ban) at GPT Amsterdam (50+ people) here in Moscow:
[DECK]
Lands
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Plains
3 Swamp
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Serra Avenger
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Aven Mindcensor
Sorceries
4 Vindicate
3 Thoughtseize
Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
Artifacts
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
[/DECK]
Upd.: Forgot proper tag for decklist :(
Suggestions to Tim's List (take it not to serious, as the european/german Meta is totally different from the US-Meta) in the Post-MM-Era
-Is the Karakas Main really ok, without a way to tutor it up? Sure its a good out against Emrakul and Progenitus, but in every Deck without KotR or a similar way to tutor it, it looks really random. But as I dont own one, my thoughts are theory only.
-The Equipments will be Jitte, Sword of xy and Batterskull, I assume. Vial makes SFM a lot stronger, from vialing him in EoT of your Opponent so you can vial in Batterskull on your Upkeep (if needed). Safes Batterskull from Discard... The Sword-Question is more challenging in my Opinion, as it relies much on Playstyle, which Sword fits. I for instance would go with Fire&Ice in the Main. Its Protection are OK (Blue more Important than Red) and the effects support the Deck as they fasten your Clock (Avenger = 3 Turn Clock), granting further CA and killing opposing Utility-Critter you dont want to waste your Removal on.
-As you save much Mana through Aether Vial, and you have 2 Maindeck Enlightened Tutors, wouldn't it be good to have a 1off SDT. You can tutor for it in Round 3-5 so you dont run out of Gas by drawing 11 Lands or control the Lifeloss of multiple Bobs.
Some thoughts that came on my Mind as I read your List.
In preparation for the new Liliana, I brewed this List for a Tournament on Sunday
// Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Abyssal Persecutor
// Spells
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Duress
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mortarpod
3 Chrome Mox
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 1 Planar Void
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Green
SB: 3 Tidehollow Sculler
The Goal of this List, is to decide games faster than the normal DGA-Lists do. For this I included Abyssal Persecutors into the List, in the Spot of Elspeth. He is the biggest Guy in the Air, has trample and has only cc4. The Drawback was never a problem for me with 8 Removal Maindeck and a tutorable Mortarpod. With Liliana there will be even more outs for him. Second alteration is Chrome Mox. I know, its an old Hat and not everybody likes the idea (me included) but in testing he did rather well. The deck can put up some fierce starts like
T1: Mox -> Hymn T2: Vindicate his Land T3: Percy
Sideboard is rather Random as I dont know how the Ban will work out for my Meta
PS: Osmin, the tag is [.Cards][./cards] without the dot
1: It does nothing to Progenitus.
2: It's a good one-of, the opportunity cost of running it is quite low.
@bfeingersh
I assume you are commenting my deck (you are a bit short in your post^^*)
1: 3 Perish from the Board + CoP: G to stall him was the Plan. I am aware I have no outs but racing him G1, but it looks ok with Percy, Batterskull, Nighthawk and Jitte
I was referring to Karakas in general.
I hate maindeck Karakas. Can't be fetched, wasteable, useless 90% of the time. It should only be a sideboard card, and even then only for decks with KotR or Loam.
Also, @Leto
If you're going the Percy route, I would drop Duress/Thoughtsieze for Cabal Therapy, Nighthawk for Gatekeeper, and possibly cut Mortarpod and the 4th Persecutor. He's a good finisher, but sucks in multiples, and you definitely want something uncounterable like Therapy to be able to get rid of him. You have 8 removal main already, but you don't want to be sitting on it just so you can off your own guy.
Karakas was a hold over from when I was trying out Weathered Wayfarer. At the time Emrakul was a pretty big threat and it seemed good to have around since it was on color and occasionaly useful. I certainly wouldn't play it now.
I didn't drop Aether Vial directly because of MM. MM also made other decks, like Counterbalance and Spiral Tide, non-playable so there wasn't a need for Vial. On top of that I fell in love with Bitterblossom and the build moved away from being creature based and making Vial worse for me. I never needed Vial, in fact it usually got boarded out in some number, and it was time for it to go in large part thanks to the effect that MM had on the rest of the meta.
As I've said repeatedly, Sword of Body and Mind is the sword right now. It's just that good. This deck just grinds it out and SoBM lets you swing through your opponents threats and generate your own. I do like SoFI and SoWP is also a strong contender depending on the meta.
The MD E Tutors will probably become SFM, she wasn't nearly as powerful last time around, since I think it's good to not tip your hand in the first game and SFM is still pretty awesome.
Top is good, but if I can find room for other cards I think I would want Thoughtseize first.
I would think that sword of feast and famine is pretty good in the metagame, since it fight combo pretty well and still gives you protection from relevant creatures (dumb green creatures and batterskull). Combined with mother of runes to give you pro-jace, I think you will be in pretty good shape.
Tim, how was the Weatherered Wayfarer in your testing?
Been liking that card sense it was printed for the first time in Onslaught.
Anyway neither of the versions will be the best. It all depends on metagame, personal preference and playstyle. For myself I cant say I like to play the vial version and prefair the more grindy version.
Quick question:
is it possible to introduce in this shell the Marit combo through the use of Vampire Hexmage and Weathered Wayfarer? Or is it just sick?
I would be in huge trouble finding slots for this. It would be +1 Depths +3 Hexmage +2-3 Wayfarer I think, 6-7 Cards for a "3-Card-Combo" is it not worth I think.
@Richard
4th Percy is only in there because of Chrome Mox to imprint him. Mortarpod via SFM is also "semi-uncounterable" but maybe I cut somewhere for the Therapy. Something I discovered when I played with him (I have ~40 Games with him) is, that it is not really hard to get rid of him. He hits the table, swings 3times and the Opponent is under 0. Good. I need to get rid of him to win but hes still a 6/6 sitting on my side of the Table = huge Roadblock for my opponent as well while I dig with Top and Bob for the Game-ending Card. He can not play Removal on him. There are little Creatures in Legacy that can pass him. Only Problem are Decks that finish via Progenitus or by spells (Combo, Burn).
Atm I have 10 Ways to get rid of him. Vindicate, Sword, Mortarpod, Jitte, 2 of them tutorable. Maybe I put in 1 or 2 Gatekeeper as well (for him and my NORUG-MU^^)
It is not obvious for me (and I think for somebody else) to board out Vial. In what match-ups would you do this? May be Zoo and fast aggro?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim the Enchanter
I never liked Weathered Wayfarer. My buddy swore by him, but he was also playing Crucible and was able to Wastelock people. I found him to be underwhelming almost all the time. A lot of times I would try to bait a Daze of Force with him and it wouldn't work and then he wouldn't do much anyway because I really wanted to be playing other things with the mana I had.
It is not obvious for me (and I think for somebody else) to board out Vial. In what match-ups would you do this? May be Zoo and fast aggro?
The more important question is when do you leave all 4 in? The answer is against Counterbalance and combo mostly, and probably dredge so you can flash in a blocker to get rid of their Bridges. Against everything else, you are the control and need to play as such. Therefore, you need cards that answer things on the board and Vial doesn't. Plus if you board in Chalice it's dead once you land one usually.
I'm not saying that you always take all 4 out. I'm just saying that you almost always take out at least a couple. The thing with Aether Vial is that if you don't have it in your opening hand, and aren't playing against something with a bunch of counters, then you aren't going to play it until the 4th or 5th turn anyway because you have better things to be doing with that one mana. They also come out, at least in some quantity, against other Vial decks because you want to name Vial with Revoker as it's usually much more important to their gameplan than yours.
I'm thinking Elspeth may be a good addition. After playing a good but more with this deck I think that she actually can be played on a fairly regular basis. Unfortunately this list is so tight I have no idea what to cut to make room for TS and Elspeth unless it was -1 Mom, -1 Revoker, -1 Vial, -2 E Tutor for +2 SFM, +2 TS, and +1 Elspeth...
Volrath's Stronghold is another decent choice for getting back Revokers and Avengers.
Philip: No comments on the list you were beggin me for?
Thanks for the explanations.
I wasnt begging, because I have my own totally different one. And I do like mine. I dont really like yours, but as youre obviously successful I cant say yours is bad. So I keep saying nothing. What do you want me to say?
I mean Id change too many things, cause I just personally dont like to play it this way - which shouldnt mean its bad - by no means.
Greetings
Hi guys! I've mostly just been lurking the forum until now.
I have a different version of DG ale than many of you, and it have done quite well so far.
But I'm really struggeling against NOprog.
What are your sb plan against them?
I try to keep removing their creatures, so my sac effects hits Prog, but most of the time i just can't keep up with all the creatures they play.
MY deck (testing some minor changes post ban. -2 Mirran Cruasaders + 2 Ghastly Demise and some sb changes)
4 Scrublands
1 Plains
4 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
1 Fetid heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Batterskull
1 SOLAS
1 Jitte
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
SB
1 Relic of Progentius
1 Thorn of Amethyst (or cannonist)
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Diabolic edict
4 Surgical Extraction
Run Perish. It is easily NO RUG's worst nightmare.
Depending on your meta you might prefer Retribution of the Meek as it hits a lot of the same decks, although it's obviously slightly worse against RUG and significantly worse against Zoo. Retribution catches some other stuff that Perish doesn't: Tombstalker, Emrakul, Reanimator.dec, most creatures with Swords on them.
(FWIW I side 3 Perishes and 0 Retributions)