[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

Yeah i'm not too dissapointed. I mean i lost to aggro loam fair and square, and the Dreadstill guy i lost to, i rode down with, and he made top 8, so it's all good.

And in the Dreadstill game he had like the perfect hand game 3. I completely got demolished. He ran divert in the MAINBOARD!! It was his secret tech and it did well for him haha.

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lol, yea Divert is a beating lol. For both Thoughtseize, Snuff out, and Sinkhole...ouch..

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Originally Posted by dahcmai

Quick question, what does this deck do against Dredge?

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Yea, crypts are the main thing, and technically you could also bring in reanimate, which I saw a friend destroy Damon with because he reanimated his only dredger. Thoughtseize is your primary tool, and will buy you a lot of time. You would also take out Snuff outs I think for some # of Edicts. Crypts are versitile enough to be brought in against other matchups, but are primarily for GY dependent decks. Dredge isn't common enough to warrent more than 4 sb slots, other matchups are more important. Besides, in tournament I watch dredge lose to some of its best matchups because of inconsistency. In testing I couldn't win more than 2 games out of a ten game set against the deck. But in tournament I've faced it 4 times and won each time (2-0 twice!) with Threshold. And theoretically this deck may have a slightly better matchup (mostly because of stifle).

A while ago, I put together a deck very similar to the list in the opening post...

It played...

4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
4 Vision Charm
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Sinkhole

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Swamp

Vision Charm combos to help you cast either Tombstalker or Dreadnought, and can even protect a Dreadnought from removal, bounce, and destroy effects by temporarily phasing it out. It can even help you out when you're color screwed and serves as Force fodder.

One clear advantage is that this allows you to consistently rely on basics when possible and play Back to Basics in the board if neccesary. In addition, Dreadnought is a stronger beater than Tarmogoyf. With the cards you run, you have an easy time protecting a Dreadnought for two turns long enough to win, but might have difficulty protecting something Goyf for the 4-5 turns you need to (assuming no chump blockers on your opponent's side). You're also dependent on fewer colors.

I'm wondering if such a build shouldn't be given more consideration.

If you really want to play Goyf, it could potentially be splashed for into the above build as well. Vision Charm does combo with Goyf as well. But if you opt to go in that direction, the deck should also probably make room for lightning greaves, giving all these massive threats both shroud and haste (thus speeding up your clock by a full turn while saving your countermagic from having to protect your threats is nothing to scoff at).

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

A while ago, I put together a deck very similar to the list in the opening post...

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Not trying to be a mod or anything, it's just that we have a threat for that approach already..

Yep, that's the one.

Is there any clear cut advantage to splashing a completely different color, and getting rid of all basic lands to play what is a slower, and less evasive essentially worse threat than Dreadnought? I saw some discussion on playing Dreadnought as a 1 of back five pages ago, but never really about using it as a primarly threat.

More people are playing token producers (including that new planeswalker), chump blockers and regenators as a way of essentially stopping the nontrampling Goyfs indefinately.

Yes, it requires more of a setup, but I personally think having a smoother mana base, winning a lot faster, and not having to worry about blockers makes up for the setup.

Or even better yet, finding a way to play with this as your threat base...

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Lightning Greaves
1-2 Volrath's Stronghold

Eh yeah there is one advantage, you don't have to play jank like Vision Charm. And you won't suffer from extreme card disadvantage with Dreadnought.

Oh and resolving a Planeswalker against TA? Good luck with that! If you manage to get up to 4 mana then also play around Daze and Force and TA only has one Goyf on board and you also have buisiness in hand you should be winning regardless as TA has failed.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

Is there any clear cut advantage to splashing a completely different color, and getting rid of all basic lands to play what is a slower, and less evasive essentially worse threat than Dreadnought?

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Yeah, you get to use your Stifle on your opponent's fetchland instead. If Dreadnought is a 12/12 trampler for :1::u:, then Goyf is a 5/6 with "counter target fetchland". (Also no chance of a dead Dreadnought if you don't draw Stifle). I like both decks, and both approaches have their advantages.

This said, even if it's not right for the maindeck, what about sideboarding the Dreadnoughts along with some Trickbinds or Charms to just completely beat the poop out of aggro decks?

That sounds like a cool idea. You can board it in against aggro, decks without fetchlands, and even combo and ichorid (replacing Snuff Out) to speed up your clock.

I see your point. This deck strikes me as UG Dreadstill but with the Standstills, 1 Trickbind/3 Mage and Dreadnoughts replaced with Sinkhole, Snuff Out and Tombstalker. So I guess LD is really key here.

Mainboard:

1 Bayou
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Duress
4 Snuff Out
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island

Sideboard:

4 Pernicious Deed
4 Krosan Grip
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Diabolic Edict

I decided to go with a list inspired by Signorini's list. The Hymn was a meta choice as I found that while Sinkhole is great against Threshold but most of the other decks in the meta around me are going to be more hurt by hand destruction. I also found that Wasteland and Stifle are more than enough land destruction, at least in my meta. I liked Thoughtseize in the deck, however I found that when I was going Fetch, Thoughtseize and then Snuff Out a few turns later that it was way too much life to be paying. Thus Duress was chosen as an alternative. Pernicious Deed was added to the sideboard because of how much it improved the match up against swarm decks like Zoo, Goblins and Elves; all of which can be problematic if allowed to developed. Anyway, here's the report.

Round 1 Team America (Ya, hit the mirror match round one...sigh)

Before going into the report for the match, our builds were different in that he was running something that was closer to Better Than Threshold. He was running maindeck Engineered Explosives, Spell Snare and Pernicious Deed's. Game one my hand opened with Gofy x2, Tombstalker, Ponder, 2 Fetch and Stifle. I Stifle his fetch on his opening play. I was able to drop a Goyf which he Snuffed Out, however I was able to drop Gofy again on the next turn and dropped Tombstalker on turn 5 and he couldn't find answers. Game Two developed a little slower but saw the same pattern develop. He was able to Thoughtseize me out of FoW but I was able to Stifle one of his lands early. Turn five comes around and he resolves two Goyf's which are 4/5's. I have no removal in hand. The next turn I'm able to resolve a Tombstalker. He decides to pass the attack phase. At the end of his turn, I Brainstorm revealing 2 Diabolic Edicts and a Snuff Out. I take the Snuff Out and Edict putting two other cards back on top. I'm able to kill both of his Goyf's and proceed to beat with Tombstalker.

Round 2 Elves

I let him resolve the one drop. However, I'm able to counter Talara's Battalion and then resolve Hymn to Tourach which takes his Sylvan Messenger. Next turn I'm able to drop Goyf and proceed to beat which ends the game in quick order because he isn't able to recover. I side out Duress for Deed. Game two I'm able to turn two Hymn which takes out a Sylvan Messenger and Talara's Battalion. Next turn he drops 4 different Elves, however I topdeck a Pernicious Deed and the game ends fairly quickly as he runs out of steam.

Round 3 UGw Threshold

I realize that if I'm going to win, I need play aggressively. We roll and he wins opening with Nimble Mongoose. I'm able to Duress him and take FoW. Next turn he attempts a Goyf, but I'm able to Daze it. The next turn turns we develop hands as I Ponder and he digs for a third land. He draws into a fetch and attempts to search, but I Stifle. He then drops a Goyf which I don't have a counter for. However, I topdeck a Goyf of my own and resolve it. He passes on his turn. I Brainstorm at the end of turn and see Tombstalker and Snuff Out. I take the Snuff out and cast it killing his Goyf and then next turn resolve Tombstalker which he can't answer. Game two goes goes off like it ought to. He plays and passes the turn. I go dropping an Underground Sea and Duress him which he Brainstroms in response to. I ended up taking his FoW leaving him with a Goyf, two Brainstrom plus other. The next turn he casts Goyf which I let resolve, however I cast Hymn on my turn and he doesn't have a Daze. I pass to him and he doesn't topdeck anything helpful. He attacks with Goyf and I cast Snuff Out and he doesn't have an answer. Next turn I resolve Tombstalker and take control of the game.

Round 4 Zoo

I finally win a roll, and opted to go first. Drop a fetch for Underground Sea. He attempts to fetch which I Stifle. Next turn I drop another Underground Sea and Hymn which takes out another land. Next turn he passes without any land. I'm able to stabilize with Goyf a few turns later and by the time he sees land, he can't get back into the game. Game two I side in REB and Deed. He starts off quick with Wildcat and Kird Ape and Goyf by turn three along with a Bolt to the head, however I'm able to drop Deed and then blow it the following turn leaving me at 7 life. He runs out of steam and and I'm able to drop Tombstalker and Goyf and proceed to beat face for the win.

Finals: Rbg Goblins

I don't remember a lot of this match. However, Stifle and Wasteland keep him from dropping his Goblins outside of Lackey which I Snuff Out. I dig with Ponder and Brainstorm and drop two Goyfs which end the game fairly quickly. Board out Duress and Daze for REB and Deeds. I loose game two because he's able to do what Goblin's does best. I FoW the Lackey, but he drops Vial on turn two and proceeds to win. I don't see Deed which was problematic. Game three my opening hand has Deed and two REB and Wasteland. I keep and bait him to over committing then blow the deed on turn four. I waste his black source on the board which ends up cutting him off. The following turn I drop Goyf and topdeck a second one which he can't answer.

Post Event Wrap Up:

Ended the day 5-0 and matches where 10-1. Hymn turned out the be the correct meta choice. Knowing that it was an aggressive meta meant that selecting a card that attacked the hand was a better call because most aggro decks have trouble refilling their hands, especially if you're able to take out their draw conditions. Thoughtseize vs Duress wasn't really an issue. I can think of only two instances today where being able to take a creature would have been helpful, however the loss of life would have made a difference in one of those games. Stifle and Wasteland are great for land destruction. The major weaknesses I found was in sideboard choices. I found it difficult to sideboard in a few of the matches, especially Threshold. I think Crypt in the board would be a good choice in the future. I also found that the deck lacks card advantage. However, I had that concern going in. Either way, I think it might just be a weakness of the deck structure. However, I think its a great deck and would play it again.

Hmm, what about Encroach? I'm not proposing it as a "must play" piece, but still - it merits some thought as a possible two-of. It may be junk ... well, it most probably is a junk.
I will give it a try today and let you know afterwards, even though I am not expecting any wonders.

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Originally Posted by Spare Parts

I will give it a try today and let you know afterwards, even though I am not expecting any wonders.

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Let me save you some time: it's garbage.

Participated at a local tourney yesterday and ended up 4-1.
Here's my decklist:

Maindeck:
3 Snuff Out
1 Sea Drake
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Brainstorm

Side:
2 Pithing Needle
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip

My MU were:

1. Landstill
2-0

2. Dreadstill variant with GrindstoneCombo
2-0

3. RGw Beatz
0-2

4. Vial Goblins
2-0

5. Aggro Loam (with swanscombo - wtf?!)
2-1

I ended up 3rd with 4-1. The Aggro Loam Dude took 1st due to a better Opp Score.
The Hymns were just great. Won me the games vs. dread- and landstill.
The Sea Drake was of course too random and was often pitched into FoW.
I guess 8 Beater are enough and the Drake should become a Snuff Out again - the card is just great in this deck, it just wins against loam and gobs.

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Originally Posted by nitewolf9

Let me save you some time: it's garbage.

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Too late... I found it out on my own :D
It was nice to occasionally punish "1land 2brainstorm" draws from opponents while on the play, but it is too situational to rely on and rest of the time Encroach was just dead weight in hand. And guess what - Worst Topdeck Ever(tm)!
At least late game Stifle still has some uses (FoW fodder, suspend counter, equip delayer)... well, don't ever try Encroach ever again ever.

EaD: congrats on the finish, how was Relic in the sb? Is it worth the extra mana investment? Pithing Needle in particular interests me, in which matchups does it shine? Is it there primarily to turn off SDT and/or Vial?

Somehow, I don't think Relic of Progenitus in this deck is the right idea. Granted, it does have somewhat better synergy than it would in Aggro Loam.

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Somehow, I don't think Relic of Progenitus in this deck is the right idea. Granted, it does have somewhat better synergy than it would in Aggro Loam.

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I definitly would agree but:
Removing our own grave keeps our stalker away and weakens the goyfs, sure.
The thing is, it's just so much better vs. loam-based decks than crypt (killing those nasty vores/ taking witness targets) plus it totally wrecks dredge.

So against the bad matchups, i guess, it shines.

Relic is bad in this deck. Crypt does everything you need it to do: wrecks the decks you mentioned without neutering your ability to cast stalker and making tarmogoyf a weenie.

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Originally Posted by nitewolf9

Relic is bad in this deck. Crypt does everything you need it to do: wrecks the decks you mentioned without neutering your ability to cast stalker and making tarmogoyf a weenie.

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It's also way better when you need to dig for it ASAP.

Convinced.

I was a bit jaundiced of relic for playing it in other decks and knowing it's power - especially against aggro loam (crypt can't kill a vore alone).
But it's kinda too situative and rly just slightly better than crypt in this mu.
Crypt should be better overall for being cc0, indeed.

It's me again.

I've noticed many top 8's recently and all of them were running some variations of hymn de tourach and sinkholes. Are the pros up to something here. I'm sorry for bringing this up but I have to say that the versions with Hymn are posting nice results.

I seem to remember having an argument a while back with the opp. who wouldn't even consider it in the mainboard claiming that it would take away from the overall LD synergy. So how do you like them apples???

Hymn rocks you guys never gave it enough credit.

Also, i'd like to congratulate the top 8 finishers who included hymn de tourach.

;-)

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Originally Posted by jericohs@cottage

It's me again.

I've noticed many top 8's recently and all of them were running some variations of hymn de tourach and sinkholes. Are the pros up to something here. I'm sorry for bringing this up but I have to say that the versions with Hymn are posting nice results.

I seem to remember having an argument a while back with the opp. who wouldn't even consider it in the mainboard claiming that it would take away from the overall LD synergy. So how do you like them apples???

Hymn rocks you guys never gave it enough credit.

Also, i'd like to congratulate the top 8 finishers who included hymn de tourach.

;-)

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One, post without that attitude. It is neither clever nor convincing. Two, post some links to support your claims. I'm sure fans of this deck would be interested in seeing those lists.

Peter rotten i've missed u.

Look at tournament reports from starcitygames and deckcheck.net, only two legacy reporters on starcity so its not that diff to miss. the articles aren't premium so they're free. Would you like me to read them for you? Oh wait; warning lol? They've been popping up here and there for the past two weeks.

some builds have been running:
3 x hymn
1 x sinkhole
while others, go for the 2x2 split

Now, some of these top eight finishers are no-names in small tourney's while others have names with some weight and posted nice results in 40-60 person tourney's.