PRIMER BY BENIE BEDERIOS
A: Deck lists
Original list by Illissius (Sideboard by Roodmistah)
UBg by KlausCode://LANDS 4 Flooded Strand 2 Island 4 Polluted Delta 2 Swamp 4 Underground Sea 4 Wasteland //CREATURES 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought 4 Tombstalker //OTHER 4 Brainstorm 4 Daze 4 Ponder 4 Snuff Out 4 Stifle 4 Thoughtseize 4 Vision Charm edit: also, 4 Force of Will //SIDEBOARD 4 Blue Elemental Blast 2 Echoing Truth 4 Engineered Plague 3 Extirpate 2 Pithing Needle
UB list by Benie BederiosCode://LANDS 1 Bayou 2 Bloodstained Mire 2 Flooded Strand 1 Island 4 Polluted Delta 2 Swamp 1 Tropical Island 2 Underground Sea 3 Wasteland //CREATURES 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought 4 Tombstalker 3 Tarmogoyf //OTHER 4 Brainstorm 4 Daze 2 Duress 2 Engineered Explosives 4 Force of Will 4 Ponder 4 Stifle 4 Thoughtseize 1 Trickbind 2 Vision Charm //SIDEBOARD 2 Blue Elemental Blast 3 Dark Confidant 2 Extirpate 1 Hydroblast 2 Krosan Grip 1 Pernicious Deed 2 Pithing Needle 1 Threads of Disloyalty 1 Tormod's Crypt
B: Strategic OverviewCode://LANDS 1 Bloodstained Mire 3 Flooded Strand 2 Island 4 Polluted Delta 2 Swamp 3 Underground Sea 3 Wasteland //CREATURES 4 Tombstalker 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought //OTHER 4 Brainstorm 4 Daze 4 Force of Will 4 Stifle 4 Ponder 3 Predict 4 Snuff Out 3 Thoughtseize 4 Vision Charm //SIDEBOARD 3 Blue Elemental Blast 3 Dark Confidant 3 Extirpate 3 Winter Orb 3 Wipe Away
DreadStalker is an aggro-control deck with the emphasise on aggro. It wants to keep an opponent of balance with cheap disruptions and finish the game fast with very large creatures. Against aggro, control and aggro-control it likes to be the beat down before aggro can overwhelm or control and aggro-control get in control. Against storm-combo it keeps disruption pieces back and wait for the right cards to win. Because the type of control this deck doesn't want to go in to control mode; with control cards that cost life or become dead late game. The deck can't hold this position for long.
C: Tactical Overview
Dread Stalker has got multiple to disrupt an opponent and get a large creature into play. In the early turns this deck wants to disrupt an opponent or play a large creature backed up with counter magic. Going for disruption, keep mana open for Stifle and try to Thoughtseize as soon as possible (turn 1, or when you keep mana open for Stifle turn 2). If you go for the second way, play cantrips to find the creatures and counters. Game 1 against an unknown opponent valuate your hand and determine which tactic would be the most optimal. The cantrips let you switch between tactics.
D: Card selection
Beats
Mandatory
Phyrexian Dreadnought: It is called DreadStalker for a reason. Of course you could play Dread, but I don't think it will work that well.
Tombstalker: Same story. It is two turns slower than Nought, but quite hard to remove. Evasion helps too.
Other cards
Tarmogoyf: Doesn't work to well with Tombstalker, but it's manageable. It's a quite fast clock without evasion. You can play a Dreadnought without Stifle or use Vision Charm to let it grow fast.
Cards that sneak Nought into play
Mandatory
Stifle: A useful card on itself and the easiest combo with Dreadnought. Stops fetch lands, Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives. It's also nice against Maze of Ith.
Vision Charm: two of the three abilities are used the most. The first sneaks in Nought and protect it from removal. When you use it to play Dreadnought, it is safe for a complete turn and you can protect it next turn against sorcery speed removal and you can protect with all your lands untapped. The second ability allows quick Tombstalkers and messes with top deck-tutors. The third ability can be used to stop an opponent to play a sorcery speed removal spell, like Wrath of God, Vindicate or Oblivion Ring.
Other cards
Trickbind: Same as stifle but also stops Sensei Divining Top for a complete turn and is almost uncounterable for one mana more.
Counters
Mandatory
Force of Will: The deck plays enough blue and it protects the creatures for free. Very much an auto include.
Daze: Another free counter. With Stifle and Wasteland (and SB Winter Orb) you can extend its usability.
Other cards
Spell Snare: A cheap-counter a lot card. It's a pity it doesn't target Swords to Plowshare
Other control
Mandatory
Thoughtseize: For one black mana and two lives it eats away a card from your opponents’ hand, and gives you knowledge of his business.
Wasteland: Some people dropped it, but coupled with Stifle it can hamper control and Threshold. It also makes Daze better.
Other cards
Snuff Out: Free cards are good. With the clock this deck can produce 4 lives hardly matters. Also stopping a 4/5 Goyf is never a bad thing.
Engineered Explosives: This can have some trouble with Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance. Engineered Explosive can deal with this and sweeps tokens and small critters (Nimble Mongoose). It is quite mana hungry though.
Pernicious Deed: A more powerful, more expensive Engineered Explosives. Don't try this card MD with only 18 lands, because it's also in a splash colour.
Smother: Quite cheap and it can hit black creatures. Most of the annoying creatures cost less than 3 anyway.
Diabolic Edict: Do you hate Nimble Mongoose and Morphling? Here is your answer. It's bad against aggro though.
Cantrips/draw
Mandatory
Brainstorm: You play blue, no chalice and a lot of fetches. Shouldn't be hard to see why this card is good. It fills the graveyard for Tombstalker too.
Ponder: additional cantrip, not as good as Brainstorm, but the build in shuffle effect is nice. It fills the graveyard for Tombstalker too.
Other cards
Sensei's Divining Top: not really a cantrip, but helps smooth out the draws.
Predict: Instant speed card advantage that fools with top deck tutors and Counterbalance. Also fills the graveyard for Tombstalker.
Dark Confidant: Because it's only a 2/1 it isn't a really good beater. It can be a much damaging with Tombstalker, Force of Will and Snuff Out. It draws removal away from the big men though.
Manabase
Just play at least 18 cards and depending on the play style it can go up to 21 lands.
Sideboard
Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast: Burn is quite even before board and with Blasts it becomes favourable. Also works nice against Goblins and is decent against Dragon Stompy.
Dark Confidant: control hates it. Additional threat and gives you a weapon in the attrition war.
Extirpate: quite good against control again. Deal with there removal or (draw) engine. It's sometimes hard to get it into the yard.
The rest is quite open. I guess decent players can figure out a SB for there Meta
Splashes
Red doesn't give much. Artifact removal (although Spree is quite weak when red is a secondary colour). Fling could be played too and of course Red Elemental Blast when needed.
Green is possibly the best splash. Gives Goyf and Krosan Grip. Deed could be played to in mana heavier versions.
White gives quite some options against control in Armageddon and Meddling Mage. Also gives the best removal spell in the game.
E: Matchups
Considering list Benie Bederios
Aggro-Loam
Chalice at 1 hurts. Tombstalker can shrink Loam's creatures and your removal hurts them. Play around Wasteland and you should win. Post-board Loam gets Krosan Grip which hurts quite a lot. You get Extirpate to hamper the Loam-Engine and/or stop there creatures.
Boarding: -3 Predict, -2 Ponder, + 3 Thoughtseize, +2 Wipe Away
Vial Goblins
The decks are about even in speed. You have better control against them, than they got against you. If you can hamper them a quick Dreadnought can seal the deal. Beware of Warren Weirding though. Post-board your get Red Elemental Blast to make the matchup a little better. Krosan Grip can hurt though, if they play it.
Boarding: -1 Daze, -1 Predict, -1 Ponder, +3 Blue Elemental Blast
UWx Landstill
Though matchup. They have a strong mana base and LOTS of ways to deal with your threats. Sometimes it's possible to punish there mana base or win with an early creature. Post Winter Orb and Pate comes in, making the matchup at least winnable, but still not nice.
Boarding -4 Snuff Out, -1 Ponder, -1 Vision Charm, + 3 Extirpate, +3 Winter Orb
UGw Threshold
Quite winnable. The decks are more or less the same, only your mana base is stronger and have bigger finishers. Try to attack there mana base and it should be fine. Post-board Thresh gets Krosan Grip to worry about. Tombstalker is safe though as long as you can keep Enforcer of the table.
Boarding -2 Predict, +2 Extirpate
UGr Threshold
The easies of the three, because the lack of removal (against you) and the lack of Counterbalance. DreadStalkers mana base is a little stronger. Post-board it gets a little worse due to Krosan Grip.
Boarding none
Epic Painter
Quite winnable. The mana base is weak and there are tons of ways to stop or hamper the combo. MD there is very little that can stop a Dreadnought or Stalker. Post board is a little difficult. If Epic Painter doesn't board in the man-plan, Extirpates are golden. If they do, Wipe Away, or no boarding at all is better.
Boarding -1 Daze, -1 Predict- 1 Ponder, +3 Extirpate
ORIGINAL POST
Alright, I originally posted this in the Dreadstill thread because the people there were going through a phase where they were discussing the possibility of dropping Standstills; now, they're going through a phase where they've decided anything without Standstill belongs in a different thread, and I've gotten multiple requests to start a new thread for this deck, by virtue of its great and tremendous potential, and though I don't like starting threads for decks I haven't played a single game with, in this case I shall bend to the People's will, so here it is.
Maindeck:
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tombstalker
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
Sideboard:
Not very much fucking clue
The initial idea was that Vision Charm is another way to combo with Dreadnought, and Vision Charm plus fetchland equals Tombstalker on turn two.
From the original post:
The biggest potential flaw of the deck: only 8 threats, and no way to refill. Then again, there are Threshold builds which don't play many more than this, so who knows. The deck is actually pretty similar to the U/G Threshold builds with Stifle and Wasteland, except running Phyrexian Dreadnought, Tombstalker, and nothing at all instead of Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, and 2-4 other creatures.Now this build is a whole lot more aggressive and less controllish than builds with Standstills and Countertop; it's closer to something like Eva Green. This is intentional.
What I really have no idea how to build is the sideboard. The trouble, basically, is that Dreadnought is vulnerable to so many different kinds of removal. Do you double down, try to anticipate what kind of removal they have and will be bringing in, and then try to protect your Dreadnoughts through the barrage? Or do you board out Dreadnoughts and Vision Charm to invalidate their removal, and bring in other threats and things more difficult to deal with? And here's where the trouble comes in: Phyrexian Dreadnought is vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares, to Engineered Explosives, and to Krosan Grip, meaning they will be keeping or bringing all of those cards in. If they have further creature removal in the board, they will bring it in. And it is highly difficult to find worthy threats who are vulnerable to none of these. It was suggested in the Dreadstill thread that Countertop could be sideboarded, but if they are bringing in their Grips anyways, then what's the point? One idea is to invalidate only their artifact destruction while bringing in more plain old creatures to try and overload their Swords, but if they've stocked up on other creature removal to go with it, you're still fucked. Or do you just fuck it and play hosers?
Anyways. A list of sideboard options I've considered:
Leyline of the Void
Faerie Macabre
Extirpate
Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top
Pithing Needle
Engineered Explosives
Engineered Plague
Hydroblast
Dystopia
Submerge
Mind Harness
Threads of Disloyalty
Vedalken Shackles
Dark Confidant
Hypnotic Specter
Jace Beleren
Tundra +
Meddling Mage
Swords to Plowshares
Tropical Island +
Pernicious Deed
Tarmogoyf
Krosan Grip
Volcanic Island +
Pyroclasm
more basic lands +
Back to Basics
Last edited by Illissius; 12-07-2008 at 10:08 AM.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
Looks very very similar to T1 solution in some respects. I keep thinking back to that deck the Japanese player played at worlds that used an enlightened tutor toolbox and Stalker. Maybe try to merge the two concepts?
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.Originally Posted by Krieger
While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
If a lack of threats is a problem, you could pop in a couple of bitterblossoms, or even cut the wastelands for factories. I know how good stifle/waste is, but uncounterable mongoose-munchers are always handy.
Going in the other direction, it might not be that crazy in a deck like this to have extirpate in the main. It works well with thoughtseize for killing swords and grips, and even extirpating nonbasics to combo with stifle and wasteland. I suppose the big problem with that is the slot it would replace would probably have to be Snuff Out, which is just special against thresh and in the dreadnought mirror.
Sullivan Solution? Far as I can tell, the similarity is that they're both U/B decks with Stifle and Wasteland. SS seems much more controllish to me.
This one? It's... interesting. I suspect if you tried to add Dreadnoughts and Vision Charms to it, you'd end up with not much room left for business spells.I keep thinking back to that deck the Japanese player played at worlds that used an enlightened tutor toolbox and Stalker. Maybe try to merge the two concepts?
This is not a bad idea; Bitterblossom is relatively difficult to deal with game one. I'd considered it before, but only for the sideboard, where it ran into the aforementioned problem called "fuck me, they're bringing in Grips anyways". Still, I'd prefer something that can kill the opponent quickly, rather than an attrition card like Blossom.
Interesting idea. Maybe in a black based version of the deck which also ran Duress (and Bitterblossom and Therapies?). I've also considered splashing for Meddling Mage, because some decks run a set of Swords as their only removal, so you play Mage naming it and problem solved.Going in the other direction, it might not be that crazy in a deck like this to have extirpate in the main. It works well with thoughtseize for killing swords and grips
How many lands do people think the deck needs? I guessed 20 because you run Wastelands and stuff, but upon reflection the curve isn't actually much, if at all, higher than Threshold, which runs 18 lands in the Wasteland builds -- though also a bit more cantrips than this deck. Cutting a pair of lands would free up the room for another two threats, once I figure out what I want them to be.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
My initial thoughts for a board:
4x BEB
3x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
2x Echoing Truth
4x Engineered Plague
UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
Not a chance, Vision charm is too conditional to be included in any deck I would play. All I did was add trinket mage so that when I had the stifle I could seach up Nought and use it. Stifle nought is much more of a secondary plan in the build I wrote up.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
This is very close to what I would suggest in the board. Pithing needle is good for shutting down factory/monastery shenanigans, as well as everything else it's good for, and I'll stop packing engineered plague in my sideboards the day I personally devour the last goblin lackey. I've found that more aggressive builds of dreadnought go about 50/50 with goblins, based on who has the best opener, but engineered plague gives the deck a huge boost post board.
The curve is very good, so you have some leeway with lands. I personally tend to err on the side of too many, because I've had to cast tombstalker with less than a full discount. I think as long as you have access to a blue and two black at any given time you're all right.
This list is almost identical to a list me and Deep6er have been playing off and on. I would recommend trying out sinkhole. It is very good in a shell like this. You can probably live without ponder. I'm not sure about vision charm, but it could be alright. In lieu of sinkhole hymn to tourach might also be good.
Edit: By the way, our list also ran 4 extirpates main. :) The idea was massive mana denial coupled with hard to deal with threats that kill you quickly.
they haunt minds...
I'll just port over my reply to when you posted this list the first time.
Stalker is strong as it's rather easy to cast Stalker without Vision Charm with all the other fast ways to fill the yard. But if you have Vision Charms to spare and no Dreadnoughts in sight. All three of Vision Charm's abilities have fantastic synergy with both Stalker and Dreadnought. It's easy to fill the yard, so if your problem is lack of black sources, the third ability of Vision Charm comes in very handy too.
Vision Charm/phasing is a much cooler way to cast Dreadnought than Trickbind. By phasing it out in response to the sac trigger, you protect it from all removal/bounce till your next turn when it loses it's summoning sickness. Essentially it has built in immunity to all sorcery speed removal including wrath effects. And since when it phases back, all your land is untapped, you are better equipped to protect the card as well whether you do so by running counterspells, or because you can utilize counterbalance, or just because you had one more draw..
And I love the fact that you can phase out Dreadnought in response to StP or Oblivion Ring or any other removal or bounce spell to protect it.
I've always felt that Tombstalker is a far more resilient and all around better threat than Goyf in the current meta. The reason for this is here. There are atleast 14 extremely commonly played spells that Goyf is poor versus that Tombstalker outright ignores and pretty much none that go the otherway around.
You could honestly replace Wasteland with Factories and replace some Ponder and a Daze with Standstill and end up with a very Dreadstill like deck.
Because lets face it, Standstill is an incredibly powerful card.
I think Factories work really well since they serve as 3/3 blockers when needed, to deter Mongooses and such. And Standstill is clearly a very strong card combined with overpowered threats like Stalker or Dreadnought.
Extirpate also works pretty well with Vision Charm as well.
Vision Charm can also be used as an Abeyance versus non-FoW counters. You play it in your first main phase, switching islands to Swamps or something. If they float mana, go through the combat phase and cast what you need to on your second main phase.
It also "counters" High Tide.
KIDS WITH GUNS!
With 8 stifle effects for the dreadnoughts this deck really wants Academy Ruins in it somehow. It probably also wants 1 maindeck Engineered Explosives and at least 1 Tormod's Crypt in the sideboard.
It's been a loooong time since I've played versus high tide. You're sure that works right, but only if they don't have a second high tide in hand.
One other thing I noticed is that using only 4 Force of Will and 4 Daze as counters makes Phyrexian Dreadnought a risky play from the midgame on. I've lost a couple of games to topdecked Threads of Disloyalty when I was running Stiflenought and going low on counters.
I actually directly lost a game and match to this in the last tourney I played in. The guy was running SDT in a MUC and he had Threads in the top 3 virtually the entire game. I Cabal Therapied to sweep his hand of his bounce and flashed it back sacing a Trinket Mage to get his FoW. I laid out Dreadnought and he just SDT'd and got the Threads and killed me with my own fatty. I was holding Daze, having used 3 FoW earlier in the facepalming over Counterbalance. I couldn't wait for the fourth FoW to show because we were 1-1 late in the match and he was just as likely to draw his third Counterbalance, effectively ending the game, as I was to draw my fourth Force of Will.
On the plus side, the vision charms will actually help with that, as you can phase out the dreadnought in response to any removal that can be responded to and still be ready to attack the next turn.
Yeah the Vision Charms will help but Counterbalance or a few more hard counters is probably a surer bet. Counterbalance can even stop a Wipe Away or Krosan Grip if you have planned well in advance, as my opponent had there.
A few things:
Are you sure thet vision charm is better than Trickbind? While vision could also be used to save a Tombstalker (but it only fears Swords), Trickbind complements the mana-denial strategy and Split Second sometimes really helps.
Playing Dreadstill I've found trickbind really useful in certain metchups (for example vs Landstill).
Snuff Out seems out of place. I can see it being useful in two different occasions:
1) Clearing the way for a fast Dreadnought or Stalker. This is where the tempo part of Snuff Out is useful. But your dudes can already stomp over whathever places beetwen them and the opponent, or...
2)Acting as a standard removal spell to stay alive vs aggro decks until Stalker or Naught arrives. But it's life loss could be really a problem in those situations (especially combined with Thoughtseize).
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity - Seneca, Roman dramatist
Name: Vision Charm
Set & Rarity: Visions common
Printings: Visions (Common)
Cost: Blue Mana
Card Type: Instant
P/T:
Rules Text (Oracle): Choose one - Target artifact phases out; or target player puts the top four cards of his or her library into his or her graveyard; or choose a land type and a basic land type, and each land of the first chosen type becomes the second chosen type until end of turn.
I think you meant Dreadnaught, right?
info.ninja
I thought you could phase out a creature.
Another good reason to run trickbind.
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity - Seneca, Roman dramatist
Charm can save you for a turn from painter combo...
well so does trickbind. Can we run them both?
On further review, I'd say that the ability to run 4 snuff outs is one of the deck's big strengths. It's really the deck's best defensive card. Chances are good that anything you kill would have smacked you for 4 life or greater anyway (goyf, dreadnought, pit dragon), so the life loss is a fair trade. In addition, the huge clock in this deck goes a long way to ensuring that you win in a couple of turns, so 4 life probably won't kill you. And don't forget, it's not unreasonable to hardcast it. If you get to the point in the game where the life loss would matter, you could probably hardcast it anyway.
I can't really demean anyone for running trickbind over vision charm, but in addition to the excellent ideas and uses for vision charm other folks have pointed out (protection, synergy with stalker, land-changing anctics), I'd add that that one colorless mana can really make a difference. Having an active dreadnought on turn three versus turn four might make or break a game. But hey, if your testing says that split second is better than cheap utility, have at it.
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