Testify.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Ditto.
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Testify.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Ditto.
It doesn't matter. Cradle will either make you combo or help you fill the table up so much that you really won't care about lands, and if you are glimpsing, you will refill your hand of lands fast enough. You should never Crop for Cradle except when you are glimpsing or need to pay Regal Force, or tutor Regal, etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by UberNewHacks
By the way, when you are comboing if Cradle is already in your hand you can always Crop for a Fetchland, and break Fetch, so you reduce 2 spots in your library, and if you are playing multicolor sideboard, you can get different colors of mana at instant speed.
On a different Topic:
Do you guys prefer going Leylie of Lifeforce to go aggro against control, or going Vexing Shusher to keep comboing anyway ?
How do you guys beat Canadian Threshold it is my most hated nightmarish pairing for this deck :S
Also:
These are my two top8s with Elves combo at the only Legacy events I play once a month. I know it's not too much people, but monoblack (tourach), and ANT really make me suffer every time. Comments on deck list? I play different finishers, because this deck so frequently fizzled while comboing so that way I can win even if I haven't reached 20 spells or 15 mana. By the way the combination of Eternal Witness + Mirror Entity + Wirewood symbiote is really CRAZY.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...3&iddeck=39160
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=38702
Your first link only shows 2 Thorn of Amethyst. The 2nd link shows 0.
This card is key in beating spell-based strategies, including but not limited to: Pox, Landstill, ANT, Belcher, and the like.
If you have extra sideboard space, I also recommend boarding 2-3 Elvish Spirit Guide, as playing Thorns on turn 1 is very helpful. It also sometimes lets you go off half a turn sooner.
I agree on the thorn but I'm not sure if the guides are worth the extra space. If you had 4 thorn and 4 guide in your sideboard you have a 40% chance of getting a thorn in your opening hand, and less than a 17% chance of getting both. After your opening hand against the matchups you listed, you don't need this two card "combo" anymore. So this will only help you 17% of the time and only against the decks that thron is viable against. I say just take the 40% chance of getting the thorn and then use the sb space for cards that can hold up against other decks on their own. It is always best for cards to not be dependent on eachother unless they offer some really good combo, and without thorn I think spirit guide is not worth it considering it is a dead card in anything but your opening hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
I know, but I couldn't fit the others in, which I should have.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
I should have taken out the Burning Wish + Lots of sorceries from the sideboard out which is my Super Secret Ninja Tech which is totally not worth it, but I wanted to kill with Byorhythm so much. Although, Slave of Bolas was the only card able to win me a match against Dredge. I got fizzled while doing the combo, give him turn he resurrects Iona into green and smiles, saying it's my game. So I go, and he starts frightening. I Wish into Slave, make Iona into my evil Slave without "playing any green", and then beat for an aggro win.
Now I have 3 more spots in the sideboard and it's looking like:
4x Thorn of amethyst
4x Krosan grip or (1x Leyline of lifeforce)
2x Relic of progenitus or (Leyline of lifeforce)
Yixlid Jailer
Harmonic Sliver
Burrenton Forge tender
Vexing Shusher or (Leyline of lifeforce)
Dauntless Escort
One big advantage to this deck is that it can race GY decks, so we don't need GY hate slots in the board. I would recomment 4 thorn, 4 grip, 4 leyline, 3 fecundity. Thats the best board I have come up with so far, though I am sure it could be better.Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilObstat
Since nobody else helped him I guess i'll do it xDQuote:
Originally Posted by kingofvestal
Okay first off all the deck list seems like you haven't deiced wether to play Aggro or Combo elves... If you do decide to go combo, elves take out
2 Joraga Warcallers 1 is good enough. Why aren't you running 4 nettle sentinels?? They are what make heritage druid worth while and pretty much the back bone for combo elves. Take out the Artifacts and Concordant Crossroad and instead put in 4 Summoner's Pact, 1 regal force, and 1 more Lanowar. Also don't run Sylvan Messenger they put Glimpses and good non-elf cards at the bottom of your deck.... Make sure you have 4 of Quirion, Wirewood, and Visionary.
Sooo basically run my list that a lot of people are running:Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
6 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
Anyone else have a variant of this using with they want to post? I'd like to see other ideas on how to integrate it. As awesome as it is conceptually, I haven't found a build with a better average goldfish yet.
Hey k2thej,
What happened at the Living Wish variant?
Still working on it. As I said above, I haven't found a build with a better average goldfish than my previous build yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
But Elves combo goes off usually on turn 3. That's fast enough to beat all aggro decks. I'd think a list running Living Wish would be preferable even if it is a tad bit slower because it gives you access to wishboard answers against problem cards like Counterbalance. Especially game 1, wishes are great in combo decks because of their flexibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Here is my deck-list. It is slightly different than k2thej's list. I personally think it would be slightly faster than his, but because I don't run Archdruid I won't have a good enough aggro fall back game 1. If Survival wasn't banned, my old deck list was gold-fishing 32% turn 2, 64% turn 3, and 4% turn 5. I tried about 35 gold-fishes.
1 Viridian Shama
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Lanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Eternal Witness
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Priest of Titania
1 Joraga Warcalller
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
1 Emrakul, the aeons torn
Lands:
2 Gaea's Cradle
8 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
I would run more fetch lands if it wasn't for budget restrictions :frown:
I'll be playing in the SCG San Jose open tomorrow. So i'll try to post a tournament report afterwards.
It's a pretty good list. You need one of the eleven non-cradle lands in your opening hand though, which is very risky. It's your call but I highly recommend archdruid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
Yeah it is risky, but I haven't had to mull that often because of it and it has given me many turn 2 combos.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
I do like being risky...I just minimized the lands in my deck as much as I could while keeping it functional. If you can make it work with 11 non cradles though, more power to ya.
Hey,
here ist my Decklist:
Lands:
13 Forest
Creatures (35):
3 Birchlore Rangers
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Priest of Titania
4 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
Spells (12):
1 Brain Freeze
3 Concordant Crossroads
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
---
Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Cript
3 Elvish Archdruid
Meta is changing from Survival, Dredge and TES to Couterbalance, Meerfolk and some other Control and Aggro Decks.
Woo! Alright so I finally think my wish build is at least post worthy, though certainly not final. Here is where I am currently at. Wish has helped a lot. Lets start the conversation!
4 Birchlore Rangers
3 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Regal Force
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Living Wish
4 Summoner's Pact
6 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
SB:
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Eternal Witness
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
1 Masticore
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Viridian Shaman
List looks good. As soon as I get back from the tournament tomorrow I'll try working on my own build.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
I have one comment on the list though. Do you think making the main win con susceptible to counter spells is okay? What I mean is because you have to use living wish to find emrakul. Living wish can be countered and you won't be able to get emrakul.
If they have a counterspell, they will use it on glimpse, so if they let you get to Emrakul they got nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil
Wouldn't you play a regal force side aswell? Perhaps a vexing shusher would be nice aswell
This is a version I've been testing based on what I've seen on MTGO. Genesis Wave is really insane, much better than I anticipated.
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Summoner's Pact
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Genesis Wave
1 Regal Force
1 Priest of Titania
The shusher you don't need because your turn into an aggro deck with the leylines if you play a deck with heavy counters or countertop.
The regal force in the board was a thought but I found that I never wished it was there. I think I will test it more though. Regal force is good because it is 7 mana, making it 9 might lose its value, maybe not though, I'll keep testing.
If they know the deck they could counter Living Wish and you'd be relegated to the aggro backup plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
What's the plan here, belch up enough Elves to chain Genesis Waves and get your whole deck on the board?Quote:
Originally Posted by voltron00x
[QUOTE=Shabbaman;514888]If they know the deck they could counter Living Wish and you'd be relegated to the aggro backup plan.
QUOTE]
If they let us combo until the living wish for Emrakul, in all likelyhood, they will probably lose anyway. They're highest priority is to stop us from comboing. They won't hold a counter through the entire combo while you fill the board with a million elves just to stop you from getting Emrakul, they will try to stop you're combo before it starts. I really don't think it's an issue.
I agree it's not the most likely scenario to get your wish countered...
Shabbaman – Yea, the idea is that Genesis Wave is sort of like Glimpse 5-7. Using just Archdruid, you can power out huge Waves on turn 3. I have waved for 9 on turn 3, and have hard-cast Emrakul on turn 4. Wave into Emrakul ends the game. I added an Eternal Witness to the list also, since that is an insane Wave target (as it rebuys the Wave). As long as you hit anything to untap your existing Archdruid, Wave will win you the game. Its an interesting way to make the deck less all-in on Glimpse without relying on spells from another color (like the Elves decks from 1-16 in San Jose did).
Why set up your deck to put out a wave of guys on turn three for a turn four win if you can set it up to win on turn two or three without genesis wave? Seems like a version of the build where the only difference is it's a turn slower. I might be missing something but I don't see any advantages.Quote:
Originally Posted by voltron00x
Green Sun's Zenith XG
Sorcery (R)
Search your library for a green creature card with converted mana cost X or less and put it onto the battlefield. Shuffle Green Sun's Zenith into its owner's library.
If this is real it will be the nuts in here. Replacement for Pact? Costs only 1 mana more, and doesnt have the nasty upkeep effect.
Edit: Its real.
New list?? No pact, 4 Zenith and a nice toolbox of green in the MD? Living wish might be unneeded now?
Seems pretty sweet- a better chord of calling. I think Summoner's Pact is still better since it is free during combo without the worry of paying the cost after. Still, it might be worth playing 2 of or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1maarten1
It's not better than wish, because 1 mana really counts for this decks when starting to combo, but it is definitely and improved Chord of Calling which is a card I was running in my list, although I used it to get non-green creatures (Burrenton forge-tender,Yixlid Jailer) into the field at instant speed, which this doesn't do either...Quote:
Originally Posted by 1maarten1
This thing is insanely good anyway.
On another topic:
I have tested the Emrakul list and I just really don't know why don't you guys also run a 2nd win-con, Tendrils/Grapeshot/Concordant crossroads, because this deck gets fizzled so many times while comboing and with only 1 win-con that has to pop up by itself and needs 15 spare mana you are risking your wining chances too much.
k2thej list also seems to rely heavily on an uncountered Glimpse for game one.
Ya good point that the card is a sorcery, I didn't notice that.Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilObstat
An uncountered glimpse certainly is a plus but my list's aggro capabilities are also really good. I feel like some people testing my list might not be paying it right...I can combo turn 2 1/3 of the time, turn 3 1/3 of the of the time, and almost always swing lethal on turn 4 if the first two don't happen. This deck hardly ever fizzles. Ever. You just have to play it right.
I'm not trying to defend my build because it's my build, but I've tested almost every conceivable card for this deck and this list is by far the fastest and most consistent (and resilient).
The aggro plan IS the second win condition, and it is extremely effective considering it's a backup plan. I'd actually venture to say that it is the most effective back up plan any legacy deck has ever had. Ya, I said it.
Also, as for counters, even if you lose to a blue control or top game one, board out the glimpses for leylines, and the three wishes for ezuri, shaman, and cradle and it is reeeeeally freggin hard to lose. you literally have an uncounterable deck (aside from summoner's pact). Control is not a concern after game 1.
The advantage is you can only play 4 Glimpse of Nature. This is Glimpse 5, 6, and 7.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
Genesis wave is not glimpse. You do not keep drawing after the creatures come out. If you see a glimpse, you lose it since it's not a creature. It's the same reason that sylvan messenger is bad in this deck. It's essentially the same mechanic just bigger. Sylvan messenger is more cost efficient than wave and it's still not good.
So that post makes one thing obvious: You haven't played with Wave. Wave usually wins you the game if it resolves. When you're waving for 6+ on turn 3, you usually win. If you do so with a Pact in hand, then you can untap with any Symbiote or Ranger you get into play, and Pact for Regal Force to draw a huge chunk of cards so that you can Glimpse out or Wave out. If you have Eternal Witness in your deck and Wave into Witness, then you can rebuy Wave and cast it again. And if none of those things happen, its like you just played a personal draw XXX exept those cards all went into play, and you still have whatever you had in hand before the Wave. Saying its comparable to Sylvan Messenger is just silly. At least test the card before you dismiss it that easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by k2thej
If you're willing to just play 4 Glimpse and hope for the best, have fun, but those versions haven't done squat in large, real-life Legacy events, whereas builds with a back-up plan (see this past weekends SCG Open for a different back-up plan to Glimpse) are at least able to compete.
The only reason my build hasn't done anything yet is because I don't have a lot of time to play in tournaments. I have played it in one major tournament, and was ONE GAME away from top 8-ing at the ginormous SCG open. One. Flippin. Game. Worst part? I lost that game by a turn after surviving being attached by Emrakul.
Anywho enough of my sob story. I will test wave again since you feel strongly about it, but please try my build again. It's the most efficient possible right now, I promise.
Fair enough. I'll give Messenger another shot.
Nooo haha thats not what I mean. Messenger isn't good! Don't do that haha. I mean't that I don't like messenger and therefore don't like wave. Also, I just edited my post.
I guess what I'm saying is that my deck obviously tries to find glimpse, and when played right, it almost always will. Since messenger doesn't help you find it, I don't like it. Since I maximize my one drop count I don't have to worry about creature advantage so messenger isn't advantageous to me.
That's ok, I wasn't really going to try Messenger :)
What do you all think of the builds that hit top 16 at SJ?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5497
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=39799
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...7&iddeck=39798
I'm not really a fan of the vengevine build...it's a different deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by arebennian