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@, URABAHN: I tried Duece stifle in the maindeck... It's a good hardcounter in many ways it takes out Fetch lands. WasteLands and yes Brainstorm and come into play effects that give your opponet card advantage, However i like disenchant maindeck more.
I'm curious however i've been testing saccred ground over Response.. I'm not sure what everone else think's drop me some feedback.
Response has been working great. However I actually wanted to test a build with Stifle in it's place and also a build with both. I love having both in the deck but that really cuts into our sweepers and other white cards (which may be a good thing). Though in Landstill's original incarnations for 1.5 back in late 2003 all builds were running 3-4 stifle and 3 response MD. Response at best destroys a Port and at worst counters creature removal aimed at Conclaves and Mishra's Factory. However, like standstill itself, Response can only be used when your opponent wants you to use it.Quote:
@LinkXWing - How is Teferi's Reponse working for you? I was thinking something along the same lines to protect vs. Wasteland.
Also, when it comes to Stifle, I like it and always have. It's universally useful and there are ALWAYS targets for it, but it always seems underpowered to me and this is why most people started cutting it from the deck to begin with.
OK, obviously Blinding Angel was a bad idea, but what about taking out Akroma's Vengeance and putting in 3 Propaganda.....
If you get a Propaganda before Moat, you can use it to stall out your opponent long enough to get a Moat.....If you get it after Moat is in play, it would be good FOW food
Plus, you're replacing 6-casting cost cards with 3-casting cost cards....
As far as Moat goes, it's a great card and all, but what about decks that play with flying creatures?.....Maybe they're not enough of a concern, but I'm just wondering what people have experienced....
What decks playing flying creatures concern you? They would have to be either blazingly fast or extremely redundant to overwhelm your STPs, Wraths, Eternal Dragons, Decree Angel tokens and possibly Exalted out of the board. Some Fishy type deck might qualify, but don't they have almost as much trouble with Goblins as Landstill? Landstill (the U/W models anyway) seems ideally poised to take advantage of Moat with flyers & board control. Ironically it would make Conclaves more relevant again after their long fall from grace.... The only concern is again acquiring (for many of us) a set of Moats.
So I caved in and decided to fix Landstill, despite the fact that I prefer playing and working on Rabid Wombat. Flames deleted---Frogboy
Anyway, here's the decklist;
Lands
8 Island
4 Flooded Strand
5 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
Spells
4 Wrath of God
2 Dismantling Blow
3 Teferi's Response
3 Decree of Justice
4 Standstill
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Humility
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
You'll notice a number of things about this list
- The mana base doesn't suck. A lot more basics and colored sources. This is inherently tied in with the fact that;
- There's no Crucible. Don't get me wrong, Crucible is a strong card. But what happened with Landstill is that people ended up fucking over their mana bases and running terrible lands just to justify running it. It also doesn't answer Port, which brings us to;
- Teferi's Response is back. The time is right for the card. It's good against most decks right now except Solidarity, which you have to sb heavily against anyway. It also brings the Blue count up to 19 without having to resort to crap like Fact or Fiction or other late game shit that you can't really afford to fit in if you want to beat Goblins.
- More DoJ. Hell, up it to four if you want. DoJ is the best manland ever invented.
- Humility is maindecked. You should've been doing this before. On top of the new rules interactions with manlands, there's no good reason at all not to maindeck this card.
- Dismantling Blow is better than Disenchant. Welcome to the world of drawing cards.
- Eternal Dragon. No, I love the Dragon, I just couldn't fit it in. And I'm not going to run 61 cards like some bad New York player or something. Alack.
- No Akroma's Vengeance. See above. Plus it has negative interactions with Humility, although if I were to take this to a tournament I'd definitely side at least 2x Vengeance.
And that's all. If you still lose to Goblins with this build, you're just a bad player.
Edited By frogboy on 1132100733
Ok, great. You've fixed the gobs matchup. Now for the hard part. You need to fix the High Tide/Storm matchup too.
EDIT: The presideboard matchup.
Why? The deck has always had trouble with Solidarity. There's no way to fix this and keep the deck intact in other matchups, and Solidarity isn't that prevalent anyway. Goblins, on the other hand, is everywhere, and should be a favorable matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkXwing
Though Terefi's Response is an amazing card, its still fairly narrow. I think it should be cut for Stifle. Stifle can still protect against Wasteland, but at same time can hit so many other things including the Storm Mechanic - which affects Solidarity. Though itsn't that effective against Solidarity if they have gone off - it still helps if they are only able to Brain Freeze for just enough cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
I brought the exact same point up to IBA on AIM when he first showed me the list. He claims that he's tested both and that Response is better. The argument goes that Response keeps your Factories alive against creature removal, where Stifle doesn't, and it draws you a card. I still like Stifle's versatility myself, but it doesn't cantrip and it doesn't protect your win conditions from all threats. so it's a tough call.
Exactly how did people fuck over their mana bases? Which lands do you consider terrible? Doesn't recurring Wasteland seems like a good answer for Port?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssasin
Speaking of good answers, how is DoJ a good answer for Goblins? 5 mana to create 2 soldier tokens that have to answer to Sharpshooter, Mogg Fanatic, Gempalm, Bolt, and Gang-Bang tokens. I've enough trouble getting to 4 mana against Goblins, much less 5 and I've been considering cutting DoJ because it only seems good in the mirror and vs. Wombat. What am I missing here?
If 4 and 5 mana is difficult to reach, then so is 6 for Dismantling Blow.
To make room for Teferi's Response, I might just start with your suggestion and cut Crucible, but I'm concerned that weakens your non-aggro matchups too much.
Dismantling Blow is a horrible idea. Consider this mental exercise. You're on the draw, with a Blow in hand. Your opponent casts a turn 2 Survival. You play a land and pass. Your opponent goes Anger-> Rofellos and gets whatever the hell he wants. He passes. You play Blow. He gets Witness in response. How lovely did that Disenchant look now?
In fact, I don't think there is a single situation where you shouldn't already be winning that D-Blow is better than Disenchant.
-Slay
Because your 'new' Landstill deck is Wombat with counters. What are the counters good for anyway if it doesn't help against combo and control matchups then? If Wombat can smash everything but combo and Landstill has the same mathups, but a little worse because we have to run 2 colors, why are we even playing blue to begin with?Quote:
Why? The deck has always had trouble with Solidarity. There's no way to fix this and keep the deck intact in other matchups, and Solidarity isn't that prevalent anyway. Goblins, on the other hand, is everywhere, and should be a favorable matchup.
I'll tell you why. Because counters are actually supposed to help deal with crap that StP, disenchant and Humility can't deal with. Stuff such as...I don't know...high tide maybe? Belcher? Flashfires? Tendrils of Agony? Massive card advantage from the opponent from FoF, Deep Analysis, Thirst for Knowledge, Meditate, Flash of Insight, Intuition, AK, Scepter-chant and other such things.
All your build of neo Landstill/Wombat is doing is making Wombat vulnerable to REB.
I can easily make a build of Landstill that will kick the shit out of Solidarity. It would include 4 Counterspell, 4 Force of Will, 4 Mana Leak, some force spikes and a combination of Arcane Lab, REB and Orim's chant in the sideboard. Guess what though? That isn't gonna hold up in a varied meta game and would get smashed by Goblins, survival varients and mirror matches.
We need a Landstill deck that will deal with Gobs AND Solidarity AND RGSA AND ATS AND AND Wombat AND Tendrils Combo/Belcher AND Burn. Not just 1 or two of them. Sure, all decks are allowed to have a bad matchup or two, but if we want Landstill at tier 1 it really can't have a bad matchup against more than 2 of those decks and preferable only have a bad matchup against 1 of them.
I think you are being fairly unreasonable. The cards that make you good against Goblins will neccessarily make you bad against Solidarity. The reason for this is that the two decks have almost nothing in common. The fact that Wrath of God is amazing against Goblins gives you nothing against Solidarity. If you played a more control oriented version with Mana leaks and more countermagic this would make you worse versus Goblins that resolved especially those on turns 1 and 2. You can't have your cake and eat it too! You have to make tradeoffs, if there were some cards that were amazing against both decks don't you think that everyone would be playing them.Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkXwing
As a side note, I think Stifle is probably the only card that is actually good against both decks. Playing Stifle on a Ringleader, Matron, or Siege-Gang is very good. As is stilfling a fetch land against Solidarity (and if you draw it too late against Brain Freeze.)
So in other words, you want a deck that beats every other deck in the metagame pre-board.Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkXwing
Stop wasting my time.
I merely provided a version of Landstill that worked by cutting extraneous crap that had grown up around the deck. It's a simplification. It still beats all kinds of combo because of the counterspells. It's not Wombat at all in that regard. But it's still going to lose to a competent Solidarity player. Nothing will fix that that also fixes the Goblins match. Live with it.
Consider the following scenarioQuote:
Originally Posted by Slay
- It's any other point in the game.
- No one plays Survival
- And as a 2x, second turn Disenchant is going to be rare at any rate.
Two-ofs aren't "I will draw these exactly when they're useful" cards unless your name is Mark Perez. They're there for mid-to-late game cards. And frankly, I could give a shit less about Survival anyway. The deck will beat the crap out of Survival regardless. Dismantling Blow is better because late game is double-cantrips, finding you more answers.
Wasteland seems less good than Responses against Port, to be honest. And it only relies on drawing the Response, rather than the Crucible + Wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by URABAHN
I consider any deck that wants UU, 2WW, and then runs 8 colorless sources of mana and four lands that come into play tapped to have a fucked-over mana base.
DoJ is actually decent against Goblins, but mainly it's just a better "manland" under Standstill than any of the other options. It's not specifically for Goblins, just a very strong card all around.
Four or five mana is not difficult to get to in my version of Landstill.
Edited By TheInfamousBearAssasin on 1130355747
Can you give me a single other scenario where Dismantling Blow is better? It would have to be:
Late game, board position is equal or a little bit worse, you have nothing better to do with 6 mana. In every single other scenario Disenchant is better. There is not a single artifact/enchantment that you fear that doesn't make an effect within the first several turns, other than Time Vault or Illusions. And even then, their draw engine is better and they have more countermagic. And you've jsut left yourself with less mana open because you're playing more expensive spells. It's difficult to fend off Jittes and Goblins at the same time as it is, no need to give them any more advantages.
Just because your matchup with Survival is better than decent is no reason to sabotage the matchup. Playing 3x Humility doesn't mean you can always have it against a Survival deck, especially since ATS has counterspells too. It also means that if they get Survival going, and you don't have Humility, you will lose. Disenchant stops that. Disenchant is a better card. If oyu have 6 mana to kill their Survival with, you've probably already won, or already lost. 2 cards won't make a difference, and 3 extra mana means they kick your ass with a Mana Leak.
-Slay
Jitte can't get active before turn 3, and that's only if they have both a Vial and a one drop to go along with it. Equipment in general is a turn slow enough that Dismantling Blow's extra mana will rarely make a difference there. At every other situation it is better, as it draws more cards to answer further threats in the late game. Control doesn't play where it has lots of cards that let it tap at each turn late game, and so the extra three mana on Dismantling Blow is a huge burden. Late game you often have nothing better to do with that mana, but given the choice between going 1-for-1, or going 3-for-1, you generally want the latter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slay
You also overrate the deadliness of an active Survival. I've let decks get Survival active before without Humility and still beaten them, because Survival is slow, and it only grabs creatures, who ultimately aren't that scary.
Are we all forgetting that DB can be cast regularly for just 1 more mana than Disenchant? There is normally very little difference between turn 2 Disenchant and turn 3 Disenchant. (Other than answering first turn Vial.) Don't get too hanged up on the whole "if I don't play kicker, it's bad" notion.
The list obviously is not perfect, but what IBA has done is something that a lot of us has been saying for the past few month.
Step away from the high white count, back to blue, back to verstile counters and multi purpose cards like Stifle and Response. Essentially, IBA's version draws more cards than any other current Landstill, and it has a more stable mana base than any other Landstill lists. Those two are positive facts that we should be concentrating on. Disenchant vs DB and such are just personal preferences.
Put that aside for now, see if we can fit in 2-3 Response AND 2-3 Stifles, because I believe that will help Landstill greatly. Stifle has application against both Gob and Solidarity, while Response has application against Waste, Port, StP, Disenchant, and every other creature spot removal under the sun. They'll also keep the blue count high, ensuring FoW at the most critical times.
And after all that, before we go on bashing individual card choices, let's test it on MWS first, if it does indeed improve Gob match, then we isolate the cause, Resposne doing its job? Stifle doing its job? Humility doing its job? Then let's go from there.
Not at every other situation it's better. When you have to kill a Vial/Jitte/Survival/x and maintain countermana, or activate a Factory to block, the extra mana is incredibly relevant. Landstill already has difficulty surviving the early game, no need to make it harder.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssasin
Again, I'll say it. If there's any time in the game when you have 6 mana to burn and there's not any better things you can do with your mana, you've already won. The card is simply a bad card that's only good when it's win-more. The only time I can think of that the ability is actually relevant in the lategame is with something like Cursed Scroll.
-Slay
That last list is about what I had when I stopped and rebuilt Landstill to make it not awful. I still had Eternal Dragons in the list, though, where the Teferi's Responses are in this one. Who cares if they blow away your Factories when you can just overload them with a Decree for a billion?
So Link just a question here. How exactly is your list any better verses solidarity than IBA's? Seriously I don't even understand why you're so diligent about degrading his list when yours isn't very different except for the humility being moat which is actually only really good against Goblins whereas humility is good against many decks.