Red is mainly used for Sneak Attack. Is there an argument to instead use blue for Show and Tell? At which point you would want Lost Legacy. Though at that point I think you just become a worse Sneak and Show.
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Red is mainly used for Sneak Attack. Is there an argument to instead use blue for Show and Tell? At which point you would want Lost Legacy. Though at that point I think you just become a worse Sneak and Show.
I'm sure this has been discussed before in the thread. Jund doesn't run Stoneforge which makes Arbor a lot less relevant. The Sneak Attack deck is already a combo list, which means we have a lot of possible dead draws in the deck (Emrakul without Sneak, redundant Sneaks, etc). Adding in more cards we never want to draw isn't great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
We're already better off against other combo decks than most Nic Fit lists because we have a faster clock. We already get better use out of Zenith than other Nic Fit lists because in this deck it's a combo piece, so we would be willing to use it for Arbor less.
The list also plays Groves which means double black is harder for the deck to make than BR by quite a margin. This also means we're lower on fetch lands, which makes us less likely to be able to fetch up Arbor in the few situations where it's relevant.
Miracles is not a match up we're happy to ignore, and swapping LL in means we have less viable sideboard cards for that matchup. Arbor itself is okay against Miracles only if you have a way of making it actually threatening, like equipment or pump effects, which we don't have, so it's not gonna do much.
The deck is also already quite full of slots we want in there - 4 fatties, 7 removal, 6 ramp, 4 zenith, 4 therapy, 2 Empath, Witness, Thrag, 3 top, 4 Sneaks leaves us with just 3 more flex slots, and if one of those is Arbor the others probably have to be payoff cards like Diabolic Intent and Meren. I don't think a list like that is any better off than a build running other less situational cards in that slot, particularly against Miracles.
So I've had a couple of Sneak Fit god hands this evening and they have lifted my spirits from a couple of bad Miracles punts. Really wish I had some more people around me to practice that matchup in person.
Phyrexian Tower + fetch + Veteran Explorer + Sneak Attack...
Burn player not expecting to face hasty Emrakul on turn 2 :laugh:
You cause another match up to become worse by doing that. You can't look at only one side of the problem. Dryad Arbor isn't played in the combo-oriented lists because it exposes us to Delver. We aren't Maverick. We don't get free mana from our creatures without paying a cost. Playing a land that allows other decks to interact with our mana directly impacts our fair match ups, which are supposed to be favorable. Sneak Fit isn't a midrange deck; it's a ramp deck. There have been Jund Fit lists that have played Dryad Arbor. They aren't combo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
You know I've been running a skeleton similar to the Sneak Fit list for over a decade, right? It didn't run SFM in any of its iterations (and neither does my Junk list, by the way) so that isn't really an argument. Yes, it might call for a Diabolic Intent, but how bad is Diabolic Intent in a deck where you try to pair up 2 cards..? Seriously. The only valid point you have is that of the manabase, which is as true as can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Vs. Delver Dryad Arbor gets Bolted/Wastelanded, meaning they have one less card to mess with the stuff you actually care about. That, in your eyes, is making the MU worse..? You do know that 4 spotremoval + 4 Wasteland is usually all they have to mess with us, right..? Having them give up one of those for a Dryad Arbor isn't that horrible. If they don't, all your followup spells either have Daze-proof (blanking 4 more of their cards) or can be powered out a turn earlier. Which is something else they have trouble dealing with. But yeah, that's probably not very helpful in that particular MU. Well, alrighty then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
Let me guess, you also consider Dryad Arbor to be a land, especially when you see it in your opening 7, and you don't like running too many DRS b/c they die to our own Pernicious Deed..? (I'm just trying to understand your mindset here)
So what do you play beyond 1-2 Intent that makes Arbor any good? You have to be playing something to make it amazing (like Pod) to make up for the awful topdecks Intent and Arbor are most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I'm not happy with making Miracles better against the deck for the sake of our combo matchups. Sneak already has some of the better combo matchups compared to other Nic Fit builds, there's no point trying to skew harder against them at the expense of others.
No you don't. All you need are Intent and Arbor, that's enough. GSZ into Arbor allows you to power out Sneak Attack a turn early (or through Daze), fetch Arbor into Intent gets you either the Sneak Attack or the fattie you need to assemble your plan. Do you know why it's viable? B/c it helps you execute the crazy strong plan of Sneak Attack into Emrakul. That plan lets you get away with a lot of stuff you otherwise wouldn't be able to pull off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Zenithing Deathrite does the same thing, since you weren't casting Sneak on turn two anyway, and doesn't give you a completely dead topdeck in your deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I don't think the ability to Intent for a combo piece is worth the amount the cards otherwise weaken the deck. We aren't 100% all-in on the combo (without Sneak we can still just cast Titans till our opponent loses) and we already run five sources of Sneak and ten sources of Emrakul.
Fetchland - Arbor into Intent costs enough mana that we're not going to be able to play Sneak + activate that turn. It also costs us a land drop, meaning we need to have made six mana sources before we go off with sneak+activate since we sacrificed one of them. If we're going to six mana sources, last turn we had 5, so Sidisi would have done the same thing, without providing card disadvantage and while way more relevant without the other half of the combo, giving us a lot less dead draws.
so....2-5 with sneaky.
Some of due to rust, some of due to deck construction.
List
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 O. Baloth (should have been a DRS)
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Grave Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Worldspine Wurm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
sb::
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dread of Night
2 Slaughter Games
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Blood Moon
Round 1: Dredge
Game 1: Study, into many dredge and brings the beats (didn't see the sneaks, but did see the Groves)
Game 2: He kept a triple firestorm hand with no dredgers and promptly dies to some hasty stuff.
Game 3: Some back and forth. I mistap while spinning a top while I have a deluge in my hand vs about 8 power and 1 bridges, then draw from top to surgical his bridges when I plan to sneak in bellower/emrakul (both in hand). play top, spin top (because I'm dumb, sneak attack was on top), play fetch and crack fetch for my 3rd red source of the game and he claims my sneak. :( That cost me.
Round 2: Maverick
Game 1: Oh boy. Grave Titan, Worldspine and even Meren did work here. His knight got huge....with a batterskull and a sword of fire and ice on it. I kept chumping with tokens, getting some counters for meren and buying time. Punishing fire picked off some small creatures when I had a chance. Finally found a decay and then a deed. He survived 3 emrakul hits.....but I got him to 0 from at least 150.....just ugh.
Round 3: Omni-Tell
Game 1: I still basic island and then volcanic with only a (ponder or brainstorm), so I figure a sneak/show deck (which is fine since I have a sneak in my hand). I miss a library trigger (after top at the end of turn), which had a STE and maybe a fattie on top. I try to blind therapy him but he forces. He decides to s & T, I spin top and leave the fattie on top. He drops Omni, I drop sneak. Sadly he has the emrakul (sadly, I only had 6 permanents in play) He would have been dead on my next turn.
Game 2: He keeps a no color land hand, and I keep surgical, TS, Therapy, Sneak, Tusk, Land, Land. I take the force which leave him with a cunning wish, intuition?, 2 sol lands and a griselbrand and a sneak. He bricks on lands for a couple of turns while I therapy he griselbrand and surgical his forces to make sure my sneak resolves. I go the sneak tusk route which gets him to 10 but I can't draw another fattie before he kills me.
Round 4: BUG Delver
Game 1: I get hymn'd, drs and delver and scoop before another hymn reveal my sneaks.
Game 2: Pretty much like game 1 but fires get surgical'd.
Round 5: Aggro Loam
Game 1: I bring the fatties to his face after turn 1 chalice on from him.
Game 2: Chalice on one again and I totally forget about the dark depths combo.
Game 3: Very Grindy. I kill his stuff after getting stuck on lands for a while and him having wastelanded me a bit. He keeps loam for the combo, while I hopefully draw my blood moons. He wins the race
Round 6: MUD
Game 1: He landed a bridge while trying build his board. Landed a sneak, decay the bridge and ran him over.
Game 2: Turn one revoker on deed, turn 2 trinisphere. I bait out a wasteland on my grove to play my witness getting back a fetch and then landing blood moon while he only has 2 lands and I have 3. Sneak comes into play and just a matter before the wurms show up.
Round 7: Burn
Game 1: Turn one Guide....yep, figures it would end this way. Almost won, however. She is at 16, when I sneak in Emrakul (over a thragtusk) when I was at 6? (and I knew she had a price in hand because I got 2 revels on the flashback), she has 7 permanants, one of which is a fetchland. She keeps the guide over the great revel and I brick with a sneak in play (and 6 lands in my hand)
Game 2: Nothing really special here. I just get roasted
My thoughts on the build. Me dumb for no DRS in main. Sidsi never happened. Meren was meh despite the one match. Griselbrand was activated like once all day. Never played inferno. Grave, wurm and bellower were all awesome.
Fires were meh. Almost want the 3rd decay back. Also want more card draw between a 3rd top, painful truths and maybe a vulturous aven (4 mana 2/2, exploit draw 2)
Board: There was a bit of D & T, so I feel the dread of night was correct. The blood moons were fine along with the 2 thoughtseize but most everything else was meh.
I keep thinking about other 2/3 mana creatures we could get......spike feeder/finks (for burn), loaming shaman for dredge, Carven Caryatid (2/5 wall, draw a card) or good ol' Wood Elves.
How is having an alternative for GSZ into DRS (which you can cast through Daze w/ the same amount of mana as you need to GSZ for DRS) a problem..? "Oh no, I just managed to drop a manadork through your Daze. Dammit!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Yes, pulling off Emrakul to the face more consistently or a turn faster isn't a high enough payoff. Emrakul to the face sucks.
Concerning fetchland into Arbor - Who ever said you wanted to do it all in 1 turn..? Lol. When you're looking to combo out, you have to plan several turns ahead. Getting all your ducks in a row is one of the things you need to do before even attempting to combo off. Who cares fetch into Arbor takes up one of your land drops..? How is that relevant? You might want to look at when you attempt to pull off fetch for Arbor... It sure as shit isn't on T3. The same goes for Sneak Attack - you don't just slam that down as soon as you hit 4 mana and pray to Arianrhod it'll all work out. You poke your opponents defenses and only when you find a hole you can squeeze through, you go for it. If you can't, you sit and bide your time.
If you want to ramp into a fast Sneak, Zenithing a DRS is just as fast as Zenithing an Arbor. Let's be honest, against Daze decks you aren't doing either of these things, because Vet is the better choice than either option and you're more interested in stabilizing than trying to combo off quickly and getting blown out by Force.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Arbor doesn't speed up the combo any more than the other options, and our Zeniths are already important because they're combo pieces themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
If our current rate of Combo / Grind / Fizzle is 60%/35%/5%, I don't think going to 62%/30%/8% (for example) is necessarily an improvement. You're increasing the combo-out rate, but you're also increasing the fizzle rate by introducing more dead draws. I'd rather have a consistent deck that occasionally has to finish a game by beating down with 6-drops than a deck that makes Emrakul a little more frequently, but also loses to itself more.
Sure, okay. If you're doing it lategame and not worried about the mana - why not just play Sidisi? Does the same thing, but only costs you one card rather than two and doesn't make your lategame topdecks horrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Actually, when I know my opponent is running Daze, Stifle and Wasteland I'll sure as shit GSZ for Arbor before attempting to resolve and trigger a Veteran Explorer. You need to make it as difficult as you can for your opponent to lock you out of your mana. It can be the difference between life and death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Your second point is more than fair. To each their own!
And for your third point - your opponents aren't sure of what you're doing. Sidisi, as a big, 5 mana creature, signals "I'm going to mess you up, you should respond to this", fetching an Arbor and feeding it to Intent says "This might be dangerous, but I'm 2-for-1-ing myself. What do I know?". And lategame it might just leave you with enough mana to drop the hate card you Intented for rather than having to wait a turn. I've won several games vs. dredge that I had no business of winning by feeding my DRS to a Diabolic Intent and dropping Rest In Peace the same turn, lol. Couldn't have done that with Sidisi.
Against Daze, if you have multiple mana cards in hand (Vets, Zeniths) then playing around Daze is naturally pretty good - I'd rather make a Vet and Zenith for another one personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Interestingly I'd see it as the other way round. Intent, to me, says 'I'm willing to 2-for-1 myself to get this card, so it's going to be absolutely amazing' where Sidisi only cost one card so it's slightly less huge - you just know it's better than a 4/6 with Deathtouch.
Intent is probably more relevant if you're playing powerful hate effects though - I could see it being more useful if you're playing 'end the game if I resolve' spells like Blood Moon. I was running a more traditional sideboard with Needles/GCharms/Extractions/Thoughtseize/Slaughter.
That's because you know what you're up to :wink:. Not every opponent is that knowledgable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I guess Intent might be some food for thought then? Blood Moon, Boil, Ruination (or From the Ashes).
It's definitely more useful there, but I don't think it's worth the slots. Especially since your opponents will be bringing in Enchantment hate / Hydroblast for Sneak Attack already. Not gonna judge if someone wants to give it a try, but I'm still of the opinion the consistency hit isn't worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Sorry to hear that. The dredge loss is probably the backbreaker there, since it pushed you into the random bracket. Sneak is certainly capable of dealing with randoms (see also your 2-0 vs MUD), but that doesn't mean it's necessarily preferred.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
Thoughts on the list:
3 Vets 0 DRS is a problem, as you noted. This deck needs its ramp very badly, especially Vet -- Vet is one of the stronger cards in the deck, which isn't typically true of most Nic Fits, oddly enough.
Griselbrand and Worldspine Wurm are extraneous. You just don't need either of them -- it's not that they're bad, certainly, they're just unnecessary. Griselbrand has basically been replaced by Woodland Bellower (what a sentence that is), and Worldspine is generally going to be worse than any of the other fatties. I guess if you really wanted one extra fatty, then Worldspine isn't the /worst/ thing in the world for that slot...but at the point at which you're two fatties over average count, you're going to run into stability problems.
Is Dread of Night better than Massacre?
Questions on the performance:
How was the 2/1 Top/Library split?
How was the removal suite? Did you see Fires enough? I know you mentioned wanting the 3rd Decay -- would finding room for the 3rd Decay in addition to 3 Fires and 3 Deeds be too much?
Did you ever end up needing to Bellower and not have Empath to grab?
How was the mana base in general?
Notes on matchups:
-) Dredge is very winnable if they don't just go off instantly. From all accounts, he had favorable hands for you to beat him and you (by admission) screwed it up. It happens. Don't beat yourself up!
-) Maverick is fine but you do have to respect the probable Dark Depths/Stage combo. I'm guessing he didn't have it, or at least he didn't think to go for it?
-) OmniTell there's nothing you can do about game 1. MAYBE if you hadn't forgot the Library trigger you could've drawn STE to Therapy (he FoW), play STE, flashback? I don't know enough info to know if that would've worked that way or not, but it's a thought. I think you played game 2 incorrectly (maybe it's just a difference, I don't know). I would've taken the Sneak Attack or the Griselbrand, almost certainly Sneak though. Here's why:
If you take Sneak Attack (and surgical it), he is forced on to Show and Tell. This means that he is /also/ forced on to Show and Tell + Omniscience, because if he Shows Grisel or Emrakul, he could just lose depending on what we put in, and he's not going to be willing to take that chance (let alone if you Empath for Emrakul to show him that you have it, as a nuclear deterrent of sorts). Since he had neither Show and Tell nor Griselbrand, it buys you the maximum amount of time of anything you could take in that hand. You tried way too hard to be the beatdown -- vs a slow combo deck like Omni/Sneak/whatever we're calling it these days, you want to be the control first, and then slam the door in their face real fuckin hard. Taking Sneak also opens you to the possibility of drawing Slaughter Games for "lethal," naming Show and Tell.
-) Hymn, Hymn, I win. BUG is easily the scariest Delver for us just because of that card.
-) Not much to go on, but don't forget the combo! Your best bet here is, as in many cases, Emrakul him. The more permanents he has to get rid of, the better. Surgical and Slaughter are 'okay,' especially if he's Loaming for the combo, but the better plan is to see to it that he just doesn't have the ability to do anything.
-) MUD doesn't seem as scary for Sneak, especially with the addition of the Fires. Always feels good to beat that deck.
-) Depending on the math and board state, and when the Flashback Therapy actually happened, it might have been more correct to take the Price and leave her with the Eidolons. Eidolon damages the burn player, too, and Eidolon is a much slower clock than Price is, generally speaking, especially if you already knew you were going to be Sneaking Emrakul // just needed to draw Zenith or another monster. There may have also been a line you could've taken to Sneak Thragtusk defensively as a blocker, but again, I'm not sure depending on the actual sequence of events.
What you are describing is exactly Scape Fit loses to not only Delver but also DnT. We don't have cantrips. If we miss on land drops while being disrupted, we can't do anything to change our options. We have to work with what's in our hand. The more time we give Delver and DnT, the more difficult the match up becomes. Trading a Bolt/Stp or a Waste for an entire turn of free board development is great for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
As I said, I'm specifically referring to Scape/Sneak builds, not the midrange builds. The design theory is entirely different for those decks.
It's amazing to see Kevin still on here. He must have a pimped out deck :P I think I've read something Tao posted too...
This is just my ghostly opinion but;
I always played Arbor in Nic Fit, even with 3-4 Deeds. As a non-blue GSZ control and ramp deck that relies almost entirely on Cabal Therapy as its mainboard piece of disruption, I found Dryad to be most fitting and most necessary.
GSZ into Arbor is merely an option, not an obligation...
Oh here on the topic of combo-ish Nic Fit decks, this is the last list I've played and by far the most consistent:
Reanimator Fit
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Entomb
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
1 Unburial Rite
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
//SB
4 Thoughtseize
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
1 Grave Titan
1 Blazing Archon
It plays all the usual control and ramp but with better fatties, more Therapy flashbacks, and an Oops button that gives us game for our worst matchups.
New GSZ toy! This is brutal against Delver.
http://i.imgur.com/c5Bktyw.jpg
Looks interesting. Needing four colours is probably a bit of an issue, though - 4C lists can be fine but are very cramped for slots. She's resistant to finishers, being the same slot as Meren (4 toughness, 4CMC) but just as vulnerable to Karakas and less relevant if she doesn't survive till we untap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Being a finisher that is worthless at killing Miracles is not a good place to be.
Well, we've been wanting a GSZ-able Baneslayer for approximately forever, and we've finally got her.
I like this one:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cvi6HtoWgAAbUWk.jpg
If you've got a BUG build with cards like Sylvan and Brainstorm, this thing can tap for a lot, which of course is good synergy with GSZ or cards with big colorless requirements.
I think you're slightly underselling how powerful this is. The cost is restrictive, but she will come out with a GSZ most of the time I expect anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Yes, Karakas is a thing. But that can be used in our favour too if she slots into a build with KotR and a Karakas of our own. Only DnT really play it these days anyway.
In these colours you have Sigarda as a finisher too so just GSZ her up instead for Miracles. Or if you have a Karakas to protect Atraxa it's still a pretty decent threat.
Meh, 4 mana for a manadork isn't really where you want to be, even if it can realistically generate 5 mana a turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
It doesn't seem good enough to me unless you can use the proliferate. For a color less you get Siege Rhino which is upfront life, and a bigger body. Maybe vigilance changes things but isn't it open to blowouts from REB?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Thoughts on the list:
3 Vets 0 DRS is a problem, as you noted. This deck needs its ramp very badly, especially Vet -- Vet is one of the stronger cards in the deck, which isn't typically true of most Nic Fits, oddly enough.
Griselbrand and Worldspine Wurm are extraneous. You just don't need either of them -- it's not that they're bad, certainly, they're just unnecessary. Griselbrand has basically been replaced by Woodland Bellower (what a sentence that is), and Worldspine is generally going to be worse than any of the other fatties. I guess if you really wanted one extra fatty, then Worldspine isn't the /worst/ thing in the world for that slot...but at the point at which you're two fatties over average count, you're going to run into stability problems.
Is Dread of Night better than Massacre? Probably not vs D And T, but i did see some teegs.
I'm fine with just 3 vets (since I have Steve). I agree on Griselbrand but Wurms do a lot of defense but so does grave titan. Sidsi was meh. Wouldn't mind a rune scarred demon or maybe massacre wurm in the board.
Questions on the performance:
How was the 2/1 Top/Library split? missed the 3rd top. Library was used sparingly. Still leaning towards a painful truths.
How was the removal suite? Did you see Fires enough? I know you mentioned wanting the 3rd Decay -- would finding room for the 3rd Decay in addition to 3 Fires and 3 Deeds be too much? Frankly I don't think the fires are really needed. Maybe just some bolts instead. Or terminates. I missed my K-grip a couple of times.
Did you ever end up needing to Bellower and not have Empath to grab? Never happened. Sometimes I wanted a 2nd witness.
How was the mana base in general? Usually wanted a 2nd swamp.
I don't think the proliferate needs to be relevant, it'll be fun to fuck with peoples chalices though! Nice with PWers too of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Rhino is hardly a bigger body when you consider where that extra toughness will be relevant, I can't think of any scenarios outside of her blocking a TKS or rhino? And after one hit it's a smaller life swing and far less abilities. This thing will rip Delver, Shardless and a host of other BG decks to shreds. Rhino has to contest with Goyf, Angler and Eldrazi on the ground, Atraxa just races in the air.
I mean, sure, Pyroblast is good vs this but then they're bringing that in vs you with hardly any targets.
The card is in a really weird space functionally. It does everything we wanted a few years ago. However, its effect is still super powerful against a plethora of decks that aren't DTB. The problem is that she's only great against Delver and Shardless and is dissapointing against Lands, Eldrazi, Miracles, and DnT. I think it's not as simple as placing it into a known list; she changes a lot of our previous designs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Kydele is likely broken, in Commander.
I do like the Chalice interaction to get things off 1. I think it's a key part of making the card work though. Keyword soup is great and all, but it's still just a 4/4 that doesn't impact the board and it's blue which is the hardest color to make work with Nic Fit (as if blue didn't already have enough problems, adding the 4th color is a big one). Vigiliance/Lifelink is a nice combo, especially paired with flying but I guess I'm just not convinced yet and blue certainly isn't bad in Legacy, but it's tough to put in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
4/5 is very relevant against Goyfs.Quote:
Rhino is hardly a bigger body when you consider where that extra toughness will be relevant, I can't think of any scenarios outside of her blocking a TKS or rhino? And after one hit it's a smaller life swing and far less abilities. This thing will rip Delver, Shardless and a host of other BG decks to shreds. Rhino has to contest with Goyf, Angler and Eldrazi on the ground, Atraxa just races in the air.
I think if you're playing this, you're also playing a few other blue cards. It's the Slaughter Games problem, one color symbol on one card isn't worth what it does to your manabase, the color needs to have more impact, which in turn means opening yourself up to the anti blue cards. Maybe there will be enough other support to make it viable, I'm not seeing it as the only blue card though.Quote:
I mean, sure, Pyroblast is good vs this but then they're bringing that in vs you with hardly any targets.
Edit: I think this one is MUCH more along the lines of what we're looking for in a 4C card.
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/...2209152447.png
At least, it's what I'm looking for. It's aggressive, it's fast, it's a solid use for mana ramp, we can GSZ it, and it really helps out with our clock. Coincidentally, it's even a human (not that anyone other than me cares about that with Caverns as a 4C enabler).
This for example is a good Jace killer. You can GSZ at 5 which is a tough cost to stop (just FoW), swing, hit the opponent, then redirect the triggers to Jace.
Switching from Sneak Fit to Scape Fit to make your argument valid. Apples & oranges, buddy. It doesn't work that way. Moving on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Do we really need any more help vs. anyDelver? Yes, it's basically a GSZ'able, flying Batterskull (which is fucking awesome), but it doesn't really fix any of the problems the deck has. If anything, it might take the place of 1 Siege Rhino and that's about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Miracles also tends to play regular Counterspell. So There's that. Concerning Saskia: It makes all of your creatures beat twice as hard. Period. Siege Rhino + Saskia does more damage than Siege Rhino + Siege Rhino (as long as you connect w/ an opponent). That's cool. As for Jace-killing - it still folds to both StP and Terminus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Seems like we've got our work cut out for us as far as our manabases are concerned. Sheesh. Also, we might have to rename to EDH Fit.
From my experience, Atraxa as the same problems as Chromanticore in worst.
I mind: some people said "for the blue we will actually GSZ it most of the time". I had more options than that at the time and it blocked me some times either way (rector option, resurect from starfield option). Which was pointed out by our community.
Here, Atraxa is legendary which means if it's bounced by a Karakas or Jace after zenithing it, you mostly won't be able to play it again.
The blue color of the card seems to be an issue only in a painter match up. I won't see any other deck putting in REB for only 1 card or 2.
I lost track of the latest iterations you guys are sporting. Seems like thelists have gone many ways since the first lists. I was unaware that sneak attack was a thing for you guys, seems like natural order is still a better more consistent finisher if you are looking for that effect, or madcap experiment into emporium. Whats the latest 3 or so iterations discussed in this thread? we're still running GBWU so Atraxa is an option for our group. Lack of first strike is a shame though. The proliferate is rather sweet as it will intervere with chalices, aether vials and the occasional tapped out explosives given end step trigger
@bruizar: Somewhat faster, more consistant Junk Fit lists and Sneak Fit lists mostly. It has been pretty quiet around BUG Fit.
As for NO - Elves! is the better NO-deck. There, it says "I win this combat phase" and the deck has the mana to hardcast their fattie if they happen to draw it. And sadly the NO plan folds to the same things normal Nic Fit builds fold to - Terminus. So it doesn't really help improve bad MUs.
Thanks, could you post one of the two lists? Is sneakfit, doing better than junk fit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Here's my current list:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
It's pretty cookiecutter. The real gems are the lists from sdematt & Brael. They're well ahead of the rest of the pack. Perhaps they can post theirs again?
The Sneak Fit lists I'll leave up to the people actually playing that.
As for results - well, apart from the local scenes, neither list really makes an impact worth mentioning, I'm affraid.
As far as Sneak goes, this is that I'm on at the moment:
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
7 Fetchland
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Punishing Fire
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Sneak Attack
1 Flex Slot (Maelstrom Pulse is default choice)
Sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Golgari Charm
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Pithing Needle
1 Massacre
1 Gaze of Granite
1 To the Slaughter
Currently looking at possibly switching up the fatties a bit (Primeval might be a second Bellower, Inferno Titan might be Dragonlord Atarka, might want to go up to 5 adding a Wurmcoil Engine or Grave Titan). New (5-drop) Nissa is also potentially worth a look. I'm looking at giving Distended Mindbender a try in either the side or the main as an Empath target. The deck kind of wants an additional source of black mana, I'm thinking of dropping a Grove or Volrath's for a second Badlands.
No. This is empirical evidence. Two decks that overlap functionally should have a similar design consideration. These aren't apples and oranges; these are Granny Smiths and Macintoshs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
You completely missed the point I am making. You are still commenting from theory unless I have misread. Have you verified that playing Dryad Arbor actually provides an overall benefit? You can't refute an observed result and claim a theoretical sequence is valid; as you said, it doesn't work that way.
Both of those interactions are more narrow than Sneak Attack. Unfortunately, Sneak Attack is a broken card.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
Here's what I'm running, it's basically built for a lower curve+CA. The Sneak lists are what most discussion has revolved around lately though.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
Land 22
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Creatures 21
1 Endless One
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Dark Confidant
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
Artifact 4
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Spells 14
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
Sideboard 15
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Shriekmaw
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Tidehollow Sculler
I'm still not sold on 4C, if I were to go 4C though I think I would be adding red over blue. Dragonmaster Outcast (over Endless One) + Sylvan Safekeeper off of Ranger of Eos seems neat. This new 4C creature (over Meren), one more solid red card alongside Slaughter Games would make me consider it. As far as the manabase goes, I was thinking something like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Volrath's Stronghold
It's +1 land overall so it would require some card to be cut, probably a DRS.
If you're willing to burn GSZ's on Arbor, then it provides a benefit because it makes your deck effectively 26 land in the early turns where higher land counts are more effective, but lets you drop to 22 later on once your mana is established.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
GSZ into Arbor is the whole reason why Arbor is worthwhile in the deck, and it's a very strong interaction.
I would like to point out that I have had success with Sneak in a larger than local setting, but I understand the sentiment. I just don't want people thinking that this is a mere flight of fancy.
GBW has a long history at this point of splashing a fourth color. It's usually red, for Slaughter Games, but Atraxa definitely pushes us towards blue. I will probably work on something GBWu after Eternal Weekend before I go into hibernation for a while.
That's idealized. Even if it's a strong interaction, there is a reason ScapeFit consistently didn't run Dryad Arbor. I'm not sure why this point isn't coming across. I feel like if people are consistently claiming it's should be considered why no one is willing to test and prove it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael