[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

[Arianrhod]

Well, we've been wanting a GSZ-able Baneslayer for approximately forever, and we've finally got her.

[maharis]

I like this one:



If you've got a BUG build with cards like Sylvan and Brainstorm, this thing can tap for a lot, which of course is good synergy with GSZ or cards with big colorless requirements.

[Whitefaces]

Looks interesting. Needing four colours is probably a bit of an issue, though - 4C lists can be fine but are very cramped for slots. She's resistant to finishers, being the same slot as Meren (4 toughness, 4CMC) but just as vulnerable to Karakas and less relevant if she doesn't survive till we untap.

Being a finisher that is worthless at killing Miracles is not a good place to be.

I think you're slightly underselling how powerful this is. The cost is restrictive, but she will come out with a GSZ most of the time I expect anyway.

Yes, Karakas is a thing. But that can be used in our favour too if she slots into a build with KotR and a Karakas of our own. Only DnT really play it these days anyway.

In these colours you have Sigarda as a finisher too so just GSZ her up instead for Miracles. Or if you have a Karakas to protect Atraxa it's still a pretty decent threat.

[Brael]

If you've got a BUG build with cards like Sylvan and Brainstorm, this thing can tap for a lot, which of course is good synergy with GSZ or cards with big colorless requirements.

Meh, 4 mana for a manadork isn't really where you want to be, even if it can realistically generate 5 mana a turn.

[Brael]

New GSZ toy! This is brutal against Delver.

It doesn't seem good enough to me unless you can use the proliferate. For a color less you get Siege Rhino which is upfront life, and a bigger body. Maybe vigilance changes things but isn't it open to blowouts from REB?

[jbone2016]

Thoughts on the list:

3 Vets 0 DRS is a problem, as you noted. This deck needs its ramp very badly, especially Vet -- Vet is one of the stronger cards in the deck, which isn't typically true of most Nic Fits, oddly enough.

Griselbrand and Worldspine Wurm are extraneous. You just don't need either of them -- it's not that they're bad, certainly, they're just unnecessary. Griselbrand has basically been replaced by Woodland Bellower (what a sentence that is), and Worldspine is generally going to be worse than any of the other fatties. I guess if you really wanted one extra fatty, then Worldspine isn't the /worst/ thing in the world for that slot...but at the point at which you're two fatties over average count, you're going to run into stability problems.

Is Dread of Night better than Massacre? Probably not vs D And T, but i did see some teegs.

I'm fine with just 3 vets (since I have Steve). I agree on Griselbrand but Wurms do a lot of defense but so does grave titan. Sidsi was meh. Wouldn't mind a rune scarred demon or maybe massacre wurm in the board.


Questions on the performance:

How was the 2/1 Top/Library split? missed the 3rd top. Library was used sparingly. Still leaning towards a painful truths.

How was the removal suite? Did you see Fires enough? I know you mentioned wanting the 3rd Decay -- would finding room for the 3rd Decay in addition to 3 Fires and 3 Deeds be too much? Frankly I don't think the fires are really needed. Maybe just some bolts instead. Or terminates. I missed my K-grip a couple of times.

Did you ever end up needing to Bellower and not have Empath to grab? Never happened. Sometimes I wanted a 2nd witness.

How was the mana base in general? Usually wanted a 2nd swamp.

[Whitefaces]

It doesn't seem good enough to me unless you can use the proliferate. For a color less you get Siege Rhino which is upfront life, and a bigger body. Maybe vigilance changes things but isn't it open to blowouts from REB?

I don't think the proliferate needs to be relevant, it'll be fun to fuck with peoples chalices though! Nice with PWers too of course.

Rhino is hardly a bigger body when you consider where that extra toughness will be relevant, I can't think of any scenarios outside of her blocking a TKS or rhino? And after one hit it's a smaller life swing and far less abilities. This thing will rip Delver, Shardless and a host of other BG decks to shreds. Rhino has to contest with Goyf, Angler and Eldrazi on the ground, Atraxa just races in the air.

I mean, sure, Pyroblast is good vs this but then they're bringing that in vs you with hardly any targets.

[Zirath]

I don't think the proliferate needs to be relevant, it'll be fun to fuck with peoples chalices though! Nice with PWers too of course.

Rhino is hardly a bigger body when you consider where that extra toughness will be relevant, I can't think of any scenarios outside of her blocking a TKS or rhino? And after one hit it's a smaller life swing and far less abilities. This thing will rip Delver, Shardless and a host of other BG decks to shreds. Rhino has to contest with Goyf, Angler and Eldrazi on the ground, Atraxa just races in the air.

I mean, sure, Pyroblast is good vs this but then they're bringing that in vs you with hardly any targets.

The card is in a really weird space functionally. It does everything we wanted a few years ago. However, its effect is still super powerful against a plethora of decks that aren't DTB. The problem is that she's only great against Delver and Shardless and is dissapointing against Lands, Eldrazi, Miracles, and DnT. I think it's not as simple as placing it into a known list; she changes a lot of our previous designs.

Kydele is likely broken, in Commander.

[Brael]

I don't think the proliferate needs to be relevant, it'll be fun to fuck with peoples chalices though! Nice with PWers too of course.

I do like the Chalice interaction to get things off 1. I think it's a key part of making the card work though. Keyword soup is great and all, but it's still just a 4/4 that doesn't impact the board and it's blue which is the hardest color to make work with Nic Fit (as if blue didn't already have enough problems, adding the 4th color is a big one). Vigiliance/Lifelink is a nice combo, especially paired with flying but I guess I'm just not convinced yet and blue certainly isn't bad in Legacy, but it's tough to put in this deck.

Rhino is hardly a bigger body when you consider where that extra toughness will be relevant, I can't think of any scenarios outside of her blocking a TKS or rhino? And after one hit it's a smaller life swing and far less abilities. This thing will rip Delver, Shardless and a host of other BG decks to shreds. Rhino has to contest with Goyf, Angler and Eldrazi on the ground, Atraxa just races in the air.

4/5 is very relevant against Goyfs.

I mean, sure, Pyroblast is good vs this but then they're bringing that in vs you with hardly any targets.

I think if you're playing this, you're also playing a few other blue cards. It's the Slaughter Games problem, one color symbol on one card isn't worth what it does to your manabase, the color needs to have more impact, which in turn means opening yourself up to the anti blue cards. Maybe there will be enough other support to make it viable, I'm not seeing it as the only blue card though.

Edit: I think this one is MUCH more along the lines of what we're looking for in a 4C card.


At least, it's what I'm looking for. It's aggressive, it's fast, it's a solid use for mana ramp, we can GSZ it, and it really helps out with our clock. Coincidentally, it's even a human (not that anyone other than me cares about that with Caverns as a 4C enabler).

This for example is a good Jace killer. You can GSZ at 5 which is a tough cost to stop (just FoW), swing, hit the opponent, then redirect the triggers to Jace.

[Echelon]

What you are describing is exactly Scape Fit loses to not only Delver but also DnT. We don't have cantrips. If we miss on land drops while being disrupted, we can't do anything to change our options. We have to work with what's in our hand. The more time we give Delver and DnT, the more difficult the match up becomes. Trading a Bolt/Stp or a Waste for an entire turn of free board development is great for them.

As I said, I'm specifically referring to Scape/Sneak builds, not the midrange builds. The design theory is entirely different for those decks.

Switching from Sneak Fit to Scape Fit to make your argument valid. Apples & oranges, buddy. It doesn't work that way. Moving on.

New GSZ toy! This is brutal against Delver.

I think you're slightly underselling how powerful this is. The cost is restrictive, but she will come out with a GSZ most of the time I expect anyway.

Yes, Karakas is a thing. But that can be used in our favour too if she slots into a build with KotR and a Karakas of our own. Only DnT really play it these days anyway.

In these colours you have Sigarda as a finisher too so just GSZ her up instead for Miracles. Or if you have a Karakas to protect Atraxa it's still a pretty decent threat.

Do we really need any more help vs. anyDelver? Yes, it's basically a GSZ'able, flying Batterskull (which is fucking awesome), but it doesn't really fix any of the problems the deck has. If anything, it might take the place of 1 Siege Rhino and that's about it.

Edit: I think this one is MUCH more along the lines of what we're looking for in a 4C card.

At least, it's what I'm looking for. It's aggressive, it's fast, it's a solid use for mana ramp, we can GSZ it, and it really helps out with our clock. Coincidentally, it's even a human (not that anyone other than me cares about that with Caverns as a 4C enabler).

This for example is a good Jace killer. You can GSZ at 5 which is a tough cost to stop (just FoW), swing, hit the opponent, then redirect the triggers to Jace.

Miracles also tends to play regular Counterspell. So There's that. Concerning Saskia: It makes all of your creatures beat twice as hard. Period. Siege Rhino + Saskia does more damage than Siege Rhino + Siege Rhino (as long as you connect w/ an opponent). That's cool. As for Jace-killing - it still folds to both StP and Terminus.

Seems like we've got our work cut out for us as far as our manabases are concerned. Sheesh. Also, we might have to rename to EDH Fit.

[Ulysse95]

From my experience, Atraxa as the same problems as Chromanticore in worst.

I mind: some people said "for the blue we will actually GSZ it most of the time". I had more options than that at the time and it blocked me some times either way (rector option, resurect from starfield option). Which was pointed out by our community.
Here, Atraxa is legendary which means if it's bounced by a Karakas or Jace after zenithing it, you mostly won't be able to play it again.

The blue color of the card seems to be an issue only in a painter match up. I won't see any other deck putting in REB for only 1 card or 2.

[bruizar]

I lost track of the latest iterations you guys are sporting. Seems like thelists have gone many ways since the first lists. I was unaware that sneak attack was a thing for you guys, seems like natural order is still a better more consistent finisher if you are looking for that effect, or madcap experiment into emporium. Whats the latest 3 or so iterations discussed in this thread? we're still running GBWU so Atraxa is an option for our group. Lack of first strike is a shame though. The proliferate is rather sweet as it will intervere with chalices, aether vials and the occasional tapped out explosives given end step trigger

[Echelon]

@bruizar: Somewhat faster, more consistant Junk Fit lists and Sneak Fit lists mostly. It has been pretty quiet around BUG Fit.

As for NO - Elves! is the better NO-deck. There, it says "I win this combat phase" and the deck has the mana to hardcast their fattie if they happen to draw it. And sadly the NO plan folds to the same things normal Nic Fit builds fold to - Terminus. So it doesn't really help improve bad MUs.

[bruizar]

@bruizar: Somewhat faster, more consistant Junk Fit lists and Sneak Fit lists mostly. It has been pretty quiet around BUG Fit.

As for NO - Elves! is the better NO-deck. There, it says "I win this combat phase" and the deck has the mana to hardcast their fattie if they happen to draw it. And sadly the NO plan folds to the same things normal Nic Fit builds fold to - Terminus. So it doesn't really help improve bad MUs.

Thanks, could you post one of the two lists? Is sneakfit, doing better than junk fit?

[Echelon]

Here's my current list:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Intent

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Duress
3 Lost Legacy
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction

It's pretty cookiecutter. The real gems are the lists from sdematt & Brael. They're well ahead of the rest of the pack. Perhaps they can post theirs again?

The Sneak Fit lists I'll leave up to the people actually playing that.

As for results - well, apart from the local scenes, neither list really makes an impact worth mentioning, I'm affraid.

[Navsi]

As far as Sneak goes, this is that I'm on at the moment:

2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
7 Fetchland

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier

1 Inferno Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Punishing Fire
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Sneak Attack
1 Flex Slot (Maelstrom Pulse is default choice)

Sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
2 Golgari Charm
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Pithing Needle
1 Massacre
1 Gaze of Granite
1 To the Slaughter

Currently looking at possibly switching up the fatties a bit (Primeval might be a second Bellower, Inferno Titan might be Dragonlord Atarka, might want to go up to 5 adding a Wurmcoil Engine or Grave Titan). New (5-drop) Nissa is also potentially worth a look. I'm looking at giving Distended Mindbender a try in either the side or the main as an Empath target. The deck kind of wants an additional source of black mana, I'm thinking of dropping a Grove or Volrath's for a second Badlands.

[Zirath]

Switching from Sneak Fit to Scape Fit to make your argument valid. Apples & oranges, buddy. It doesn't work that way. Moving on.

No. This is empirical evidence. Two decks that overlap functionally should have a similar design consideration. These aren't apples and oranges; these are Granny Smiths and Macintoshs.

You completely missed the point I am making. You are still commenting from theory unless I have misread. Have you verified that playing Dryad Arbor actually provides an overall benefit? You can't refute an observed result and claim a theoretical sequence is valid; as you said, it doesn't work that way.

I lost track of the latest iterations you guys are sporting. Seems like thelists have gone many ways since the first lists. I was unaware that sneak attack was a thing for you guys, seems like natural order is still a better more consistent finisher if you are looking for that effect, or madcap experiment into emporium.

Both of those interactions are more narrow than Sneak Attack. Unfortunately, Sneak Attack is a broken card.

[Brael]

I lost track of the latest iterations you guys are sporting. Seems like thelists have gone many ways since the first lists. I was unaware that sneak attack was a thing for you guys, seems like natural order is still a better more consistent finisher if you are looking for that effect, or madcap experiment into emporium. Whats the latest 3 or so iterations discussed in this thread? we're still running GBWU so Atraxa is an option for our group. Lack of first strike is a shame though. The proliferate is rather sweet as it will intervere with chalices, aether vials and the occasional tapped out explosives given end step trigger

Here's what I'm running, it's basically built for a lower curve+CA. The Sneak lists are what most discussion has revolved around lately though.
Land 22
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures 21
1 Endless One
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Dark Confidant
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons

Artifact 4
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Spells 14
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard 15
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Shriekmaw
1 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Tidehollow Sculler

Seems like we've got our work cut out for us as far as our manabases are concerned. Sheesh. Also, we might have to rename to EDH Fit.

I'm still not sold on 4C, if I were to go 4C though I think I would be adding red over blue. Dragonmaster Outcast (over Endless One) + Sylvan Safekeeper off of Ranger of Eos seems neat. This new 4C creature (over Meren), one more solid red card alongside Slaughter Games would make me consider it. As far as the manabase goes, I was thinking something like this.

2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Volrath's Stronghold

It's +1 land overall so it would require some card to be cut, probably a DRS.

You completely missed the point I am making. You are still commenting from theory unless I have misread. Have you verified that playing Dryad Arbor actually provides an overall benefit? You can't refute an observed result and claim a theoretical sequence is valid; as you said, it doesn't work that way.

If you're willing to burn GSZ's on Arbor, then it provides a benefit because it makes your deck effectively 26 land in the early turns where higher land counts are more effective, but lets you drop to 22 later on once your mana is established.

GSZ into Arbor is the whole reason why Arbor is worthwhile in the deck, and it's a very strong interaction.

[Arianrhod]

I would like to point out that I have had success with Sneak in a larger than local setting, but I understand the sentiment. I just don't want people thinking that this is a mere flight of fancy.

GBW has a long history at this point of splashing a fourth color. It's usually red, for Slaughter Games, but Atraxa definitely pushes us towards blue. I will probably work on something GBWu after Eternal Weekend before I go into hibernation for a while.

[Zirath]

If you're willing to burn GSZ's on Arbor, then it provides a benefit because it makes your deck effectively 26 land in the early turns where higher land counts are more effective, but lets you drop to 22 later on once your mana is established.

GSZ into Arbor is the whole reason why Arbor is worthwhile in the deck, and it's a very strong interaction.

That's idealized. Even if it's a strong interaction, there is a reason ScapeFit consistently didn't run Dryad Arbor. I'm not sure why this point isn't coming across. I feel like if people are consistently claiming it's should be considered why no one is willing to test and prove it.