I don't really have anything constructive to add i just have to say it's insane seeing K-Run post about his deck more than a decade later. Good on you man, i remember following your progress with it all those years ago.
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I don't really have anything constructive to add i just have to say it's insane seeing K-Run post about his deck more than a decade later. Good on you man, i remember following your progress with it all those years ago.
It’s good to see you on here too Oyen :D I hope I see you at a legacy event nearby!
Also, for those who want some fun pimp for the deck, in German, kicker is Bonus
http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/r...ason/Chant.jpg
@K-Run
@TaxMan
I've playe a Weekend Torunament and I'd like to share my thinkgns.
I ran the wollowing list:
/ Lands
2 [IA] Mountain (1)
16 [7E] Plains (4)
1 [US] Serra's Sanctum
1 [EX] City of Traitors
// Spells
1 [LG] Moat
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [AL] Soldevi Digger
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [TE] Humility
4 [4E] Land Tax
1 Terminus ( I wanted to run 1 [9E] Blood Moon, but there wasn't any in the store!!)
3 [TE] Scroll Rack
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
2 [WL] Argivian Find
4 [WL] Abeyance
1 [9E] Story Circle
1 [10E] Aura of Silence
4 [V10] Mox Diamond
3 [JGC] Orim's Chant
1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
1 [ISD] Nevermore
1 [CMD] Oblivion Ring
1 [FNM] Isochron Scepter
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 [CFX] Banefire
SB: 1 [9E] Wrath of God
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [US] Planar Birth
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [MOR] Idyllic Tutor
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 1 [DS] Ritual of Restoration
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
Well,
- 1st Game: Was 43 Lands with intuitions, Oblivion stone, manabond, E.E...
I won 1games even with no B.Moon.
In here Nedle and Nevermore were key cards. I locked the engine of loam naming loam even I had Ruins active.
The second game we didnt finish
- 2nd Game: Tendrils with Show and Tell and Griselbrand, It was no TES and no ANT.
First game was:
Hand of: Mox diamond E.Turot, Story circle B.Wish Land LAnd LAnd Tax
the game was resolved in to: I had Scroll Rack In play 2 mana open, he duress my Circle, !!, the he resolves Show and T, me in resp E.Turot to Humility change Rack Win! he put Griselbrand, next I resoved Moaat and again Nevermore To tenderils and conceded
2nd game was land Lands Tax and 2 Pyroblast + Orims. I simply didnt reache the Mountains nenough early, what was a think I have to think related to the use of enough red sources.
3rd game was resolved into a Silence in reponse to a 2nd D.Ritual, because he wanted to play griselbrand, he FoWs my Abeyance , I beyance him again, he become sad and pass turn, and he noticed (I knew) abeyance lets creatures so, as it was store torunament I concede.
Lost but could have won , this deck is suposed to go perfect vs TES and ANT but not as welll vs Showand Tell Tendrils Griselbrand becauase of mainly LED card.
3rd Game Miracles:
Well I knew it was a difficlut match up. and it wasnt, it was so easy to my oponnent... I conceded both games.
we havent responses to c.balance online, we do not put pressure and he will counter the stuff thath is annoying but what happnes is that we do not have any,
So because in my meta its infected by miracles i need some solution.
Well on first game he resolves soon a Jace as I dont put pressure and I Oblivion it, but next on 5th turn he plays balance with 7 cardsin hand and its game,
On second game was the same. shit.
So I need to make this deck good vs miracles.
II'll let you know my changes.
4th game Maverick
In here I locked with isochorn + chant, easy.
In 2nd I made a mistake not leaving terminus in side, its fantastic this card, I would have made - burning into terminus, change with s.rack sacrifice land to not to die, abeyance and terminus, next land tax ability. !!
3rd game I would have won I locked him with moat nevermore to krosan, humility,
Conslucsions:
- The decks is slow as hell, I ddidnt win a game my opponents conceded me. so I understand that I need something to win quick in a way.
- I have no options vs miracle, need to change things in the deck
- Soldevi digger was useless all time, people often lookjed at that card as nobody knew what it does...,
- Argivian were also useless, I don't think theyre neede even with B.Wish to -> Restoration Or Replenish. The idea is that I'd like to have artifacts or encantments that make any ability destroying b¡y itselfs so that makes argivian better, but I haven't so it 's only usefull if they counter anything, therefore I'm think9ng seriosly to put in these slots Pyroblast main.
- Terminus is a great card. I want to make space main.
- B.Wish targets were mainly to -> Idillyc tutor, Terminus, Restoration Ritual.
- I found Decree useless also, as most of the time s you lock with humility and Moat vs creatures, so I'm thinking seriously in Charbelcher main, if the idea around this is: you can win only with tax only + charbelcher.
- Important Note: I notice I had no respiknse vs Teeg. so I'll put something in side for B.Wish, any Idea? I need also anything that works vs mother + gaddock. Pyroclasm for example doesn t work. Please help in here!
Questions:
- Have you played Charbelcher Main? how is that good? I'm seriosly thinkin in including main, I will need to win some day a game with this deck!
- I ve been thikning in painters - grisdtone, and even that way will make my pyroblasts better, but I find again that painter is a creature and is not ok with humility.
- Does the Opalescence option can be ok? does it work with moat humility?
- Do you know guys any other idea regarding Win Con, ajani elspeth? Too slow.
- Well my main problem is Miracles countertop, so options are:
1. Prytoblasts main.
2. more Aura of silnce maybe?
3. The artifact that costs 2 and you put counters and can destroy even jace OR E.Explosives?
4. Do you have any other idea?
- Can anybody tell me the utlity of Soldevi digger? does this card worth? K-Run could you give me an anwer in here.
So definately changes in my mind are:
- 1 Abeyance
- 2 A.Find
- 1 S.Digger
- 2 Plains
=
+ 3 Pyroblasts
+ 1 Charbelcher
+ 2 Mountains.
Also I will take from side Decree and put more Terminus and more Pyroblasts/Hydroblasts.
Please let me know your opoinions!
Belcher is amazing. It’s the only card I have that kills my opponent, and I play 1. Never had an issue with 2x Argivian Find maindeck either. Soldevi digger is awful. It was a kill card to stop you from decking back in the day. It’s horribly outdated, you can just cut that straight up for belcher.
Blood moon is necessary if you’re playing Red. I’m not sure why there is so much disinterest in the scepter/chant combo, but I’m totally unimpressed by abeyance and have cut it completely. I’d rather just have Leylines to stop their plans. I have no problem scroll racking away extras.
I'm pretty sure that this deck fundamentally doesn't work.
I'm also pretty sure, however, that there's exactly one card that makes Land Tax almost worth playing and that ought to be a pre-requisite for the archetype and that I haven't seen at all thusfar;
Extraplanar Lens
The card has massive synergies with Land Tax in that it allows you to activate the card while not missing out on your mana development.
For my money;
18 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Scrying Sheets
4 Scroll Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Land Tax
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Argivian Find
3 Extraplanar Lens
4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Venser's Journal
2 Sacred mesa
1 Batterskull
2 Goblin Charbelcher
I think Goblin Charbelcher is your answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
I think the main offender here is CounterTop. Maybe pack more Oblivion Rings, Abolish, Aura of Silence (since they're at three CMC and its harder for them to hit three) or Pithing Needle (naming Sensei's Divining Top or Jace, the Mind Sculptor.)Quote:
- I have no options vs miracle, need to change things in the deck
There are better choices; Mistveil Plains and Elixir of ImmortalityQuote:
- Soldevi digger was useless all time, people often lookjed at that card as nobody knew what it does...,
Like what was suggested above, I'd go for Noxious Revival. It can also replay (and help trigger) miracle cards (Terminus)Quote:
- Argivian were also useless, I don't think theyre neede even with B.Wish to -> Restoration Or Replenish. The idea is that I'd like to have artifacts or encantments that make any ability destroying b¡y itselfs so that makes argivian better, but I haven't so it 's only usefull if they counter anything, therefore I'm think9ng seriosly to put in these slots Pyroblast main.
It is, especially with Scroll Rack and Noxious RevivalQuote:
- Terminus is a great card. I want to make space main.
I haven't really tested B.Wish so no comment on thisQuote:
- B.Wish targets were mainly to -> Idillyc tutor, Terminus, Restoration Ritual.
[quote]- I found Decree useless also, as most of the time s you lock with humility and Moat vs creatures, so I'm thinking seriously in Charbelcher main, if the idea around this is: you can win only with tax only + charbelcher.[/cards]
See my first reply. Also, I don't think Decree will be help because its too mana intensive (that why Entreat the Angel isn't really suggested in the deck[/cards]) and this deck wants to run efficient-costed spells
I would suggest the following: Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile. I can't think of a Sorcery-based one for B.WishQuote:
- Important Note: I notice I had no respiknse vs Teeg. so I'll put something in side for B.Wish, any Idea? I need also anything that works vs mother + gaddock. Pyroclasm for example doesn t work. Please help in here!
See above. Charbelcher is your win-button in the late game.Quote:
Questions:
- Have you played Charbelcher Main? how is that good? I'm seriosly thinkin in including main, I will need to win some day a game with this deck!
I wouldn't suggest Painter's Servant+Grindstone because Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is a thing in Legacy and its a two-card mana intesnsive combo.Quote:
- I ve been thikning in painters - grisdtone, and even that way will make my pyroblasts better, but I find again that painter is a creature and is not ok with humility.
As for Painter with Humility, because of how layering works, Painter will be a 1/1 with no ability but everything will be the color of your choice (Its ability is "As it enters the battlefield" and not "Whenever", so the trigger doesn't use the stack)
For more information, look up these threads:
How Humility Works
Humility and Painter’s Servant
Opalescence RulingQuote:
- Does the Opalescence option can be ok? does it work with moat humility?
Though I don't think it will be advisable with Moat.
They are too slow, but I will suggest Elspeth, Knight-Errant since it has synergy with Humility and can hold back aggro no problem. Ajani Vengeant is alright but you did mention that sometimes you get color screwed.Quote:
- Do you know guys any other idea regarding Win Con, ajani elspeth? Too slow.
That artifact is Ratchet Bomb. For other answers, see above.Quote:
- Well my main problem is Miracles countertop, so options are:
1. Prytoblasts main.
2. more Aura of silnce maybe?
3. The artifact that costs 2 and you put counters and can destroy even jace OR E.Explosives?
4. Do you have any other idea?
Soldevi Digger is an old tech as it can recycle cards that can be Scrolled back into. You have better options now (such as Noxious Revival)Quote:
- Can anybody tell me the utlity of Soldevi digger? does this card worth? K-Run could you give me an anwer in here.
Oh damn, the more I learn. LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by yespuhyren
Scepter/Chant Combo is too mana intensive though once you get it online, it can win certain matchups.Quote:
Blood moon is necessary if you’re playing Red. I’m not sure why there is so much disinterest in the scepter/chant combo, but I’m totally unimpressed by abeyance and have cut it completely. I’d rather just have Leylines to stop their plans. I have no problem scroll racking away extras.
We will make it work ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
I know you've tested it before (when I kept crusading about its legalization, you kept saying you've tested it and its crap) but if built around it properly, it will work.
As big of an internet dick that you are, you are god damn awesome. Thanks for suggesting that!Quote:
I'm also pretty sure, however, that there's exactly one card that makes Land Tax almost worth playing and that ought to be a pre-requisite for the archetype and that I haven't seen at all thusfar;
Extraplanar Lens
The card has massive synergies with Land Tax in that it allows you to activate the card while not missing out on your mana development.
As for your list,
Why Venser's Journal? I get the no hand limit but just to gain life, wouldn't Ivory Tower better.
Also why Tormod's Crypt? Why not Grafdigger's Cage?
I agree with E-tutor's number since Scroll Rack will do most of the searching.
Extraplanar was tested and sadly had to be dropped long ago due to lack of impact. The card is AWESOME, but it’s simply win more and this deck needs more proactive cards to helping you live. I do still have a sweet spot for it and I play it in Modern with snow covered plains, but I miss it in the deck that being said I can see people playing it.
Currently the couple flex slots where I would be playing 2x Extraplanar became Oblivion Ring, then Powder Keg, and now are Grafdigger’s Cage and Cursed Totem
@Pelikanudo
About Burning Wish:
Many years ago, I wanted to play 4 Burning Wish in Vintage Parfait as a better way to get access to Balance. Burning Wish was restricted the following month, so I never really try it. The idea of Burning Wish is Legacy is interesting, but we have to ask ourselves if any sorcery is worth it. Let’s take a look at your sideboard sorceries:
1x Terminus
1x Banefire
1x Wrath of God
1x Replenish
1x Planar Birth
1x Shattering Spree
1x Idyllic Tutor
1x Decree of Justice
1x Ritual of Restoration
Terminus: The thing with Terminus is that you’d rather have it in your library than in your hand. Wrath of God seems better for that role. Other possible options include Pyroclasm and Firespout.
Banefire: This sounds like a good idea. Red Sun’s Zenith is interesting as well.
Replenish: This is useful vs counterspells and removal. A good wish target.
Planar Birth: I don’t understand why some people still want to play this. Unless you face lots of burn decks AND run Zuran Orb, I don’t think this is useful at all.
Shattering Spree: An amazing card vs artifacts but too dependent on red mana. Revoke Existence or Dust to Dust seem better cards for that role.
Idyllic Tutor: Sounds like a late-game option, as it would cost you 5 manas plus the cost of the wanted enchantment… Is it worth the slot? You already have 4 E. Tutors and the tax/rack engine for that…
Decree of Justice: Nice card, but will you have enough mana to make it relevant?
Ritual of Restoration: Noxious Revival is a better card that you should play maindeck instead. Mine Excavation is better if you really want a Wish target.
Are there any other options?
Austere Command
Cataclysm
Cenn’s Enlistment
Increasing Devotion
Martial Coup
Morningtide
Saltblast
Timely Reinforcements
Earthquake
Meltdown
Ruination
Winds of Change
The problem with your strategy is that you give up maindeck defense in the form of Swords to Plowshares and Terminus to get access to situational business spells (ex. : Replenish). A better way to do it in my humble opinion would be to have proper defense maindeck and to use Burning Wish to get access to specialized resources. Depending on Burning Wish to save your ass in the early game is bound to fail, if only for the lack of red mana available. I would play 2-3 Wishes at most and add Plateaus to ensure a better access to red mana.
About Counterbalance:
There are two problems with this matchup. First, we do not have proper maindeck solutions to Counterbalance, a card that deals with most of our cards. Then, there is the fact that Miracles is a slow deck as well, making it impossible to win the 2nd and 3rd game within 50 min. The best sideboard card vs Counterbalance is Banishing Stroke. The best advice I can give you is to concede the first game as soon as your opponent has an active CounterTop.
About a faster kill:
Goblin Charbelcher is the fastest reliable kill. I personally use Batterskull and Elspeth, Knight-Errant and it is fast enough to my liking. In your build, I would play Charbelcher.
About some cards you use:
Soldevi Digger and Argivian Find are outdated. Use Wheel of Sun and Moon and Noxious Revival for an instant upgrade!
About Gaddock Teeg and Mother of Runes:
Swords is a great answer to both cards. If you use Pyroclasm, you can get rid of one of the two creatures. My version doesn’t have much problem vs Maverick: I simply tutor for Cursed Totem in the first turns and deal with the creatures with Swords and Terminus until I play Humility. Karakas also deals with Teeg.
I hope this helps. Good luck!
K-Run, is there any reason you don’t have a pyroclasm as a burning wish target? I always found it incredibly useful. Are you running earthquake?
This is not a sideboard suggestion. I simply listed additional interesting sorcery cards in White and Red, and Pyroclasm and similar cards were listed earlier in my explanations.Quote:
Originally Posted by yespuhyren
@K-Run:
Ivory Tower would be better life gain obviously, but the lifegain and don't-discard effects are so marginal that it's definitely not worthwhile to use two slots for them, even if one is Reliquary Tower, I feel. Whether or not it's worthwhile to have a slot to this at all is questionable but, while expensive, Venser's Journal does do a lot of legwork in the late game, pulling you way out of reach and letting you get your full activation out of Land Tax while not just discarding a bunch of lands eot.
I tested out other graveyard removal, but honestly nothing else is as poweful/efficient as Tormod's Crypt, and you have so many conditional slots anyway, and Scroll Rack to throw it back. I would also say that there's a number of marginal graveyard utilization effects in Legacy that Cage doesn't answer; pumping KotR, or recurring Engineered Explosives with Academy Ruins for instance, or Welder tricks.
Although when it is good the fact that I only have 1 Argivian to recur it is a bit annoying.
One card I've often wanted to play but is probably terrible is Reito Lantern. It's a Digger that doubles as graveyard "removal" for the opponent, although it would be less useful due to its slowness against Reanimator and Dredge. It would however let you manage recursion tricks in slow matchups like against 43Lands, decks with Ruins, etc.. It seems way better than either Digger or Elixir though, although perhaps not Mistveil.
@yespuhyren:
I would ask what you tested against. A lot of decks I've found Lens absolutely necessary, as the plays that are seemingly "win-more" that it enables are often necessary to survive against decks with strong late games, such as BladeControl, Goblins, Miracles, NicFit, and many builds of Maverick or Bant. It does suck enormous donkey balls when they actually have removal for it, but the decks that pack Ancient Grudge in their board tend to be the ones against which Land Tax is basically dead anyway. i.e., RugDelver.
This deck is, of course, very mana hungry for a strategy that relies on your opponent playing more lands than you. This is the fundamental challenge this deck faces; how can you activate Land Tax and develop your mana at the same time? Lens is the only card that neatly slices that Gordian knot, although Path to Exile as a 4x helps.
Also always choosing to draw first, which I've found necessary and I'm not sure if everyone else implicitly assumed, because I don't recall it being mentioned, but yeah, totes draw first.
(Lens also lets you double up on Sacred Mesa, a card that can simply run away with the game entirely by itself with sufficient mana.)
TheInamous!
Thanks For Reito Lantern. !
It s the best of all.
- better than digger - you choose and can be both gy.
- better than mistveil - both gy.
Do you know any other card.
How do you guys play charbelcher, as I think makes the deck basic land depandant.
Because of that card I think I will go back to old strategy. No win cons main!!! just winning first game its all i want! Thats why I play B.Wish, you really do not mind 3rd games...
K-Run what is really the strategy of the deck, I mean, is enoguh to not loose? simply make the opponent loose? can be this deck played as a Deck That Does Not Loose?
I think I'm going to substitute charbelcher by that one...
Just trying to win game 1 is a terrible strategy because probability is compounding. So if you're 60% favored against a deck you're 60% to win g1 but rather more than that to win 2/3, and if you're 40% favored, likewise you're somewhat less than that to win 2/3.
So ideally you'd want the matchups where you're unfavored to only last one game, but by their nature this is difficult to do. Rather, all you're doing is undercutting your own win percentage by dragging game 1 out unnecessarily. Part of why you want to run Charbelcher and I would say Lens and Mesa, as once you've got the game locked down you want to kill them pretty quickly.
@Pelikanudo
You don't want to lose a single game. :)
Winning the first one is essential, and not losing the second one is kind of ok. Try to win both games!
Reito Lantern is a great Soldevi Digger replacement. However, it's a bit too slow to be relied upon as an anti-graveyard card. A single Mistveil Plains is enough and a Tormod's Crypt, a Grafdigger's Cage, a Phyrexian Furnace or a Nihil Spellbomb can all fill this spot. They all have their pros and cons; your metagame will tell you which one to favor.
Extraplanar Lens is interesting, but I still prefer the Wildfield Borderposts.
Wow, just realized this deck has wraith for 1W at instant speed with scrollrack out and the ability to flip a top even if it draws terminus. Seems pretty insane. Why not play Entreat the Angels as a wincon if you can always guarantee it while your board is set up?
Depending on your build, you might not have lots of mana available to power EtA. Also, EtA has bad synergy with Humility.Quote:
Originally Posted by kwis
I didn’t pick up the deck when Land Tax became legal. I had my playset ready, and as soon as it became legal it made it into my deck. I’ve been playing the same shell for over a year now, having testing several thousand matches online and hundreds in person. I control the board, and eventually win with a singleton win condition. With a maindeck of Leylines, Relics/Cage, Moat/Humility/Island Sanctuary I have no problem establishing board control, using the land tax engine to go off, and winning when I’m ready. I don’t bother playing creatures, I just stop all creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
I don’t play a mana hungry strategy, and don’t bother with mana intensive cards. I’d rather E-tutor up scepter turn 1 and go for turn 2 scepter chant and just win.
I simply figured that the work that EtA did would be equal to or greater than the work done by Mesa in context. However I neglected the fact that this deck plays Humility for whatever reason. In that case I certainly see the value in playing Mesa over EtA.Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Run
I can assure you that you do not want to engage me in a game of who's-been-trying-to-make-monowhite-control-work-in-Legacy-longer. It is conceivably possible that I could ever lose to anyone in this game I guess, but it will not be to someone that thinks Zuran Orb main or a full spread of CoPs in the board is a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by yespuhyren
If there was anything else in that post of value I missed it.
Maindeck Leylines are awful, Scepter-Chant is unfortunately also awful at this point. A very tiny fraction of the combo decks in the field are significantly affected by it.
Also an over-emphasis on testing is going to lead you to undervalue winning at a sufficient pace to actually finish three games in a round, which would explain much else of that build.
I was going to respond to both of your posts, but after typing out my responses I realized that I’m wasting my time with an arrogant troll. While I get you missed the COPs as humour, everything else you said is laughably irrelevant or senseless.
You play your lists, I’ll play mine. I’ve been playing legacy since it was Type 1.5 classic. If I have trouble finishing a match in time, let alone winning, I’ll message you. Until then I don’t plan on responding to another one of yours posts.
Hey yespuhyren,
I was playing my list yesterday (although multiplayer casual - along with Goblins, Modern non-combo Pod and Budget 12-post (it resembled like Modern pre-banning) and I find that Solitary Confinement is awesome at buying time. Though I was skipping my draw phases, I was able to put down enough Plains onto the field (although making sure I don't go over my opponents). When I ran out of Plains in the deck, then I sacrificed Solitary Confinement hoping to draw into a bomb. Sure it did I drew a Humility and it was easier for me there.
The that wasn't really acceptable in a real tournament, it could theoretically work out. My main concern now is I'm divided between Solitary Confinement and Island Sanctuary.
Here are the Pros and Cons
Solitary Confinement:
Pros:
- Can also act as a Leyline of Sanctity
- Can also stop islandwalk and flying.
Cons:
- You have to be dedicated to it
- Costs one more mana
Island Sanctuary:
Pros:
- Costs one less mana
- You can choose to draw if you have a better board position and not having Sanctuary to blow up
Cons:
- It doesn't stop Merfolk and anything flying
- It doesn't stop Siege-Gang Commander flying goblins at you.
- Not quite protected like Leyline
I'm wondering what should I use (two of 1-1 split, although I want to use two of one kind)
As for Isochron Scepter, I used to love Scepter lock but I find the mana-development of the deck to be too slow for Scepter. I used to run it when I ran Quinn and my old casual list (as seen at the OP). I've ultimately removed Scepter (and Orim's Chant) for more lands and Noxious Revival
As for Noxious Revival, not only it can recycle artifacts and enchantments, it can also set up Terminus if you're desperate for another one, as well as Wasteland or necessary spells.
As for sideboarding:
I wonder what your list is good against yespuhyren. Aggro is a must breeze for the deck. Now the problem is blue-based Tempo. I would imagine this deck would have a good control matchup but Counter-Top says otherwise.
I used to advocate Trinisphere in the main but with it, the deck loses half of its efficient costing spells. Also, Trinisphere creates a different set-up. I am thinking against Tempo and Combo (storm-based) or any deck that can run in low amounts of land, Trinisphere postboard with a different setup is the way to go. Kinda like a transformational sideboard turning the deck into aggro-Stax (kinda like 8-ball decks [cheap beaters backed up with resistors (Trinisphere). Maybe Stoneforge Mystic package comes in (siding out Humility?)
Share us which matchups are good and bad for your list.
Then your response was to type that you had no response, just like your previous reply wasn't an actual argument but a laughable attempt to assert authority. Speaking of...Quote:
Originally Posted by yespuhyren
http://i.imgur.com/djAMK.pngQuote:
You play your lists, I’ll play mine. I’ve been playing legacy since it was Type 1.5 classic.
To clarify a bit, the reason that this line of argument is ridiculous isn't solely or even primarily because I have far more experience playing mono-white control in Legacy, and yes, in 1.5 too; it's because experience is not a reliable indicator of correctness.
So your insistence on non-arguments renders your posts rather easy to dismiss as insignificant.
I've been casually playing around with a few lists of Mono-White Land Tax-based control since the unbanning. I started using a slightly modifided version of yespuhyren's list a few days ago and liked it a bit more than I thought I would.
20 Plains
4 Mox Diamond
3 Scroll Rack
4 Land Tax
1 Planar Birth
1 Zuran Orb
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Argivian Find
4 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God
1 Moat
1 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
3 Abeyance
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Reito Lantern
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Goblin Charbelcher
The deck was lacking some of the Utility that I remembered from the Older Parfait lists, which is really what I was hoping to recapture. I was also looking for a better way to combat control mirrors in the main. Previously I had played a list I'd thrown together, that lended me some of the ideas that I incorporated here.
After testing, I'd like to assure you that Reito Lantern is actually quite good, not amazing, but fulfills endgame duties while threatening to steal Snapcaster targets. I had considered testing out Elixir of Immortality in this slot, but wasn't totally fond of the idea of recycling everything.
Thinking about the deck, I think that a heavy Mox Diamond build with a splash is what would best suit me. I have tested with a Blue Splash to include Jace, and it was fine for just throwing him in there. I think that the deck could really benefit from starting to differentiate itself from Quinn + Land Tax by exploring the options, keeping this thread as a place for W/x control, but exploring what the different splashes can offer.
Off the top of my head Blue offers some great options: Brainstorm and Jace are obvious suggestions, and how they interact positively with Miracles lets you play a more W/u Miracle list that focuses on a different aspect of the game than a U/w miracle list. other offerings blue has are Trade Routes which can both enable Land Tax and act as an auxiliary engine in place of Scroll Rack. Trade routes also works quite well with Planar Birth. Back to Basics is rather strong as well, forcing an opponent to commit lands to the table and can really swing a control mirror.
Red has been discussed a bit as giving Burning Wish and Blood Moon, both of which are great options. mana efficient sweepers like Pyroclasm seem quite good against Maverick, Goblins and Elves. Lightning Helix is also fine in most situations.
Black and Green seem lackluster, but Vindicate is pretty attractive. If someone has the time to collaborate a list of desirable cards to splash for, it really isn't a problem to play a few fetchlands, a dual or two and some off-color basics to support it. The loss is really only in using Goblin Charbelcher as a win-condition.
Best splash cards I’ve found so far:
Red:
Firestorm
Gamble
Blood Moon
Goblin Trenches
Burning Wish
Lightning Helix (in scepter heavy lists)
Green:
Sylvan Library
Sterling Grove
Dueling Grounds
Sideboard Options:
Choke
Carpet of Flowers
Black:
Bitterblossom
Chains of Mephistopheles
The Abyss
Blue:
Back to Basics
Daze
Trade Routes
In the Eye of Chaos
The main reason I play Island Sanctuary over Solitary is that there is no discard downside. Goblins should be a joke. If you have Leyline of Sanctity in play, then drop Island Sanctuary, you’ve just stopped Goblins completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
On Scepter Chant, I never understood what people were talking about when they said it was too mana intensive. You need 2 mana to lock down the game, 3 to stop creatures. You don’t need to do anything else generally speaking.
I’ll happily play turn 1 E-tutor, Turn 2 scepter chant, and sit behind that until I draw lands and build board presence while chanting them every single turn. What do I care if I’m taking 2-3 a turn if I’m chanting, I’ll find another plains, stop the attacks, then just keep going until I’m casting spells. There aren’t a lot of decks that can deal with an active scepter/chant plan
The goal of my list is to shut down all viable win conditions, hence the 4 maindeck leyline of sanctity. This deck wants to stop the opponent from having any means of winning.
Basic aggro and combo are a breeze. Maverick is practically a bye, though elves, goblins, merfolk and the like rarely put up much of a fight
Vs Combo and burn, you’re hoping on the 40% chance of that Leyline.
Ichorid/Reanimator can be tough if you don’t hit answers, but with 4 e-tutor and cage and relic main to make it a joke, though you have viable means to winning as well through the other silver bullets
Vs Sneak/Show and the like, you have a ton of answers, they have a ton of ways to win. It’s all in the cards. If you know what you’re playing, just play e-tutor for humility. You don’t need to cast it, just let it sit in your hand to shut down Show and Tell
RUG delver was a bitch at first, but I’ve been testing with David Caplan for the last few weeks and have knocked out a lot of the issues I was having before. Maindeck Relic is really good, and post board you definitely want the 2nd relic of progenitus and COP Green. COP Green pretty much walls everything but Delvers, which are stopped by Paths, Kegs, etc. It’s almost worth swapping the 2nd relic for the Cage if you’re in a RUG heavy meta with not a lot of Ichorid/Reanimator
The worst matchup would be U/W countertop/miracles, as it can sit around doing nothing. That’s why the SB has 2x Seal, 2x O-ring, and 1x Aura of Silence. If you can Needle the top before they can resolve counterbalance, you’re generally not that poor off. Their only win conditions are generally Jace (stopped by Leyline) and Angels, Snapcasters, etc which is walled by the rest of the deck.
People are packing a lot of sorcery speed answers to problem permanents in GSZ-> Pridemage, Vindicate/MaelstromPulse, or Pernicious Deed. This is aside from normal counters of course. So giving them a full turn's warning that you're going to try and chant them out of the game is an excellent way to just get 2-for-1'd.
I would also say it's really obvious that you haven't tested against combo if you think it's mainly a joke. Your deck is packed full of bad answers. You have nothing of significance to stop High Tide from crushing your face, that's basically an auto-loss; Leyline and Chant do nothing against Reanimator, Leyline does nothing against Sneak and Show and Chant stops one activation of Sneak Attack if you kick it.
Part of the reason that I stopped running Scepter-Chant in this format was that aside from the printing of Pridemage, Tendrils had receded as the dominant combo archetype.
You also just don' really have a lot of answers to aggro. You've got 4 Paths and 4-mana permanents you can't hope to actually cast with only 18 real mana sources unless you're activating Land Tax, which literally every aggro deck in the format can stop you from doing at very little detriment to its own mana development. Aether Vial completely shuts down the Land Taxes you're banking your entire gameplan on, and you have no actual answers to swarms of Merfolk or Goblins or Elves + Eldrazi.
This is exactly the kind of pile cutesy, shiny cool things that might come together in theory but won't in tournaments that I've been trying to stop people from playing in the archetype for ten years. If Land Tax is to form a viable deck it's not going to be like this; it's going to be in a deck that, first of all, can reliably win without Land Tax active, and that can consistently get draws that beat up on creature decks, instead of having a million kitschy pieces of shit stuck in hand.
Since you seem like a troll who isn’t going to leave me alone...
It also says "if you don’t have Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse or GSZ/Pridemage this turn you lose" against a lot of those decks...Oh yeah. You can play it after turn 2. What a novel idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Good point. 4x Leyline and 4x Orim’s Chant is awful against combo :rolleyes:. 90% of the combo decks I see are ANT, Belcher, and the like. If High Tide somehow becomes an issue I’ll change things up.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
I wonder if blue players ever side out force of will? :eek: They play 4x Force to stop unfair decks, I play Leyline to stop Tendrils, High Tide, Burn, Discard, Jace, Intuition, etc. Believe it or not...that’s a card that can be sided out in game 2
Scepter Chant is not just for tendrils decks...You just need to cast chant. Scepter chant is to lock out decks that DO NOT have answers to it immediately, which is a lot of decks. But you would know that scepter chant isn’t in the deck solely for combo with your 10 years+ experience telling people not to play it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Except Island Sanctuary and Powder Keg in addition to 2x Oblivion Ring, Moat, Humility, Scepter Chant in game 1 alone, and more game 2...Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Well, you spend at least one part of each post trying to assert yourself as better than everyone else, so I’ll just assume this is what that paragraph is and I won’t attempt to argue anything there.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
What else ya got? You’ll soon start to realize that I also couldn’t care less what your opinion is and that you should just stop commenting on anything I say. You can take this as me asking you to stop replying to anything I say for the sake of the thread staying creative and constructive versus your approach of cocky arrogance and stupid arguments.
There is legitimately nothing you could do short of winning a major event with mono white land tax sometime soon that would give me any interest in listening to you.
Hey yespuhyren,
You played with Caplan? Like goobafish? I'm guessing you're from Ontario?
As for your list, you said you wanted to run Terminus. Why haven't you change that? Is Keg actually better?
As for your land count, I somehow agree with IBA. Sometimes I find myself mulligan to five because I cannot get ample amount of lands. I don't think relying on Land Tax alone is good. I'm actually going to bump my land count to at least 20.
Also, I might play a small tournament. I'm contemplating on running your list (maybe some changes). I'm wondering what your sideboard looks like and for what matchups.
If you want to play 20 lands, that’s perfectly reasonable. I’d just move 2x Relics into the board, add the 2x Plains, and just fill the other 3 Metagame Slots up in the board. The same could be said for adding 2x Extraplanar lens if you so choose that route. i have 2 foil ones, but still don’t really want to play them. That being said, I wouldn’t do the snow-covered plains if I did, but that’s just because I love my foil lightning plains :D.
You are correct about Ontario and the like about Caplan, and he just left lol We play all the time, I have been playing with him for 15 years since camp. I’m going to repost the full list to make it more easy to see. I like to post images, as some people like me hate reading deck lists, and it’s much easier just to look at cards in the deck and pick up the feel of it that way vs text on a page
Couscous Parfait - Maindeck - 60
Mana Sources (22)
18x Plains
4x Mox Diamond
Instants (14)
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Path to Exile
4x Orim’s Chant
2x Argivian Find
Artifacts (13)
3x Scroll Rack
2x Zuran Orb
2x Isochron Scepter
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pithing Needle
1x Goblin Charbelcher
Enchantments (11)
4x Land Tax
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Island Sanctuary
1x Humility
1x Moat
Currently my sideboard is:
1x Grafdigger’s Cage (Dredge, Reanimator, Past in Flames, Snapcasters, Lingering Souls, etc etc
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ethersworn Canonist (Enchantress, Combo, etc)
1x Cursed Totem (Maverick, Elves, Griselbrand)
1x Powder Keg (Aggro, Empty the Warrens, Affinity, Etc)
2x Seal of Cleansing (Enchantress, MUD, Countertop)
2x Oblivion Ring (Show and Tell mainly)
2x Ghostly Prison
1x Nevermore (Most matchups)
1x Aura of Silence (Enchantress, MUD, Countertop, some storm)
1x Story Circle
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
There are a ton of cards that cycle in the open slots, but most of them don’t see much play and those 10 generally have covered everything for me. Other cards of interest that I’ve looked into, tested, and found viable:
2x Sun Droplet
1x Karmic Justice
1x Humility
1x Luminarch Ascension
1x Solitary Confinement
1x Juntu Stakes
1x Harsh Judgement
1x Warmth
1-3x Ethersworn Canonist/Rule of Law
1x Sphere of Resistance/Trinisphere/Defense Grid
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1-2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Meekstone
1x Story Circle
1x Porphyry Nodes
1-3x Ghostly Prison
1-4x Caltrops
The biggest advice I have for sideboarding is to play what your metagame dictates! Sideboards should never be copied card for card unless you’re playing in the same metagame as the person whose list you’ve copied.
Yes, I'm sure it's an unfathomable burden for you to be called upon to actually defend yourself in this, an internet discussion forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by yespuhyren
Oh, lest we forget,
Best laid plans...Quote:
If I have trouble finishing a match in time, let alone winning, I’ll message you. Until then I don’t plan on responding to another one of yours posts.
Good luck with getting that running on 18 lands, and with no removal besides Path to sweep out, say, Moms and Thalia and Pridemages, or hordes of little red or blue or green men.Quote:
It also says "if you don’t have Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse or GSZ/Pridemage this turn you lose" against a lot of those decks...Oh yeah. You can play it after turn 2. What a novel idea.
Then you have a weird meta. Reanimator and SnT decks are overwhelmingly more popular than Tendrils. High Tide is somewhat less popular, but the aggregate of other combo decks that don't give a shit about Leyline, including Enchantress, GlimpseElves, Mud and Imperial Painter also significantly exceeds Tendrils.Quote:
Good point. 4x Leyline and 4x Orim’s Chant is awful against combo :rolleyes:. 90% of the combo decks I see are ANT, Belcher, and the like. If High Tide somehow becomes an issue I’ll change things up.
Now I mean if your meta is all Tendrils and Burn, that's a thing I guess, but this thread should also be talking about what's good in a general Legacy environment.
Leyline doesn't stop High Tide, nor does it stop the part of Jace that's generally going to lose you the game. Also this comparison is facetious because Force of Will, while sub-optimal against decks like Merfolk, Maverick, etc., is still far more relevant than Leyline, which is not at all.Quote:
I wonder if blue players ever side out force of will? :eek: They play 4x Force to stop unfair decks, I play Leyline to stop Tendrils, High Tide, Burn, Discard, Jace, Intuition, etc. Believe it or not...that’s a card that can be sided out in game 2
Actually I told people to play Scepter Chant for quite a while. The reality is that, besides the fact that it was always a drain on the clock, it's just not as good as it used to be due to a number of factors, such as the strengthening of blue and the printing of Pridemage. Thalia doesn't help either.Quote:
Scepter Chant is not just for tendrils decks...You just need to cast chant. Scepter chant is to lock out decks that DO NOT have answers to it immediately, which is a lot of decks. But you would know that scepter chant isn’t in the deck solely for combo with your 10 years+ experience telling people not to play it.
I'm going to do you a favor and pretend you are not suggesting dropping an early Island Sanctuary. The problems with trying to assemble Scepter-Chant early (especially given that this will usually mean tutoring for it and opening yourself up to a 3-for-1 that will be essentially game ending) have already been discussed; Powder Keg is of very limited value against most decks (why do I even need to point that out?,) and Oblivion Ring is pretty meek if all you're doing is hitting a beater with it. Moat and Humility are decent cards but often insufficient to put you out of reach if you aren't first doing a lot to slow them down, and again, your mana base is simply too greedy to cast these cards reliably when it matters.Quote:
Except Island Sanctuary and Powder Keg in addition to 2x Oblivion Ring, Moat, Humility, Scepter Chant in game 1 alone, and more game 2...
In order to reliably combat the fair creature decks, which are your bread and butter matchups, where you're trying to steal most of your EV- since nothing you do is really going to give you a very strong combo matchup anyway- you're going to want probably 1-2 StP minimum, and 4x Terminus. Also for God's sake, the 4th Scroll Rack and at least 2 Tops for consistency.
This is laughable. You are the only one who has- twice in fact- attempted to assert authority here as a substitution for an argument. I merely pointed out my far superior authority in this archetype when you made such an attempt, which makes your butthurt over this pretty ridiculous. And I even said that my superior experience in this archetype does not of course translate into my being necessarily right- determining that is going to depend on some mixture of results (testing or tournament,) statistics and strategic theory, which you seem to resent being asked to provide.Quote:
Well, you spend at least one part of each post trying to assert yourself as better than everyone else, so I’ll just assume this is what that paragraph is and I won’t attempt to argue anything there.
What, so you don't have the self-control to follow through on your own threat to ignore me, so now you're asking me to do it for you?Quote:
What else ya got? You’ll soon start to realize that I also couldn’t care less what your opinion is and that you should just stop commenting on anything I say. You can take this as me asking you to stop replying to anything I say for the sake of the thread staying creative and constructive versus your approach of cocky arrogance and stupid arguments.
There is legitimately nothing you could do short of winning a major event with mono white land tax sometime soon that would give me any interest in listening to you.
I honestly don't care about your opinion in particular, except to the extent that when you're wrong I can prevent people from listening to you, and thus wasting their time and energy and money, by making it clear that you're wrong.
Cool. I’m wrong, you’re the best, we get it. If you play 5 kills and I play 1, we’re clearly playing different styles of decks. To whoever listens to your advice, good for them. To whoever plays my list, they’ll make the decision themselves. I don’t build my list for the online metagame and your metagame. I couldn’t care about your metagame, or anyone else’s. I build for mine, which has a lot of burn, tendrils, and Goblins, RUG, Delver, Merfolk, Maverick. Argument Done and done? Thanks for your public service, and if you’re that much better than all of us you should spend some time pushing the thread forward with lists and info.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
For anyone interested, against decks like Goblins, if you can play turn 0 Leyline, turn 1 E-tutor, turn 2 Island Sanctuary, they have no outs. Island Sanctuary is often very good early, as opposed to what was argued.
This is the list you posted:
18 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Scrying Sheets
4 Scroll Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Land Tax
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Argivian Find
3 Extraplanar Lens
4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Venser's Journal
2 Sacred mesa
1 Batterskull
2 Goblin Charbelcher
You knocked my list in the combo matchup, where I at least seem to have 4x Leyline 4x Chant and more in the maindeck. You literally have 0 cards outside of Tormod’s Crypt that do anything to combo, and Crypt is loose at best. Are you just conceding every game 1 to any and every combo deck?
I’m not saying don’t post, but why don’t you post a sideboard, some matchup results with your deck, etc. Show some valid arguments and theories through your list, like how you beat combo, instead of knocking other people’s lists...
You do not seem to really grok the purpose of discussion forums. By venturing a decklist into this thread you're opening it up for public discussion; you don't get to cry foul that people critique your list or its application to metagames that aren't all burn and tendrils.Quote:
Originally Posted by yespuhyren
That is a truly terrible idea. Besides being difficult to pull off, it means you just sitting there for thirty five minutes waiting for them to deck. The problem with this is that it gives them total control of the clock; all they have to do at that point is wait til about fifteen-twenty minutes left in the round and scoop. From there they can quickly sideboard and play out the remaining games; if they win they can do it usually pretty quickly, especially since you're not even running a board clearer; but if, say, you stabilize game 3, you'll still have no way to win in time.Quote:
For anyone interested, against decks like Goblins, if you can play turn 0 Leyline, turn 1 E-tutor, turn 2 Island Sanctuary, they have no outs. Island Sanctuary is often very good early, as opposed to what was argued.
Also I don't know what you mean by "like Goblins" here, since all other major midrange decks have flyers and/or islandwalkers.
Except Sneak and Show, yes.Quote:
This is the list you posted:
18 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Scrying Sheets
4 Scroll Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Land Tax
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Argivian Find
3 Extraplanar Lens
4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Venser's Journal
2 Sacred mesa
1 Batterskull
2 Goblin Charbelcher
You knocked my list in the combo matchup, where I at least seem to have 4x Leyline 4x Chant and more in the maindeck. You literally have 0 cards outside of Tormod’s Crypt that do anything to combo, and Crypt is loose at best. Are you just conceding every game 1 to any and every combo deck?
My criticism wasn't that you were losing to combo; it's that you were losing to combo while spending an enormous number of slots doing it.
My suggestion for post board against combo would be;Quote:
I’m not saying don’t post, but why don’t you post a sideboard, some matchup results with your deck, etc. Show some valid arguments and theories through your list, like how you beat combo, instead of knocking other people’s lists...
+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Rule of Law
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Aura of Silence
+1 Nevermore
+1 Runed Halo
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Leyline of Sanctity
Depending on the given combo strategy, obviously. Note that that's still not going to give you an overall fantastic matchup, but you're not focused primarily on that; the ultimate point here is to cut your losses to the extent plausible and focus on making up ground in other matchups; not just auto-scooping to other control decks, for instance.
Another sideboard suggestion would be just run a fucking Story Circle, seriously. My current list + SB I'm testing:
18 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Scrying Sheets
4 Scroll Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Land Tax
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Argivian Find
3 Extraplanar Lens
4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Sacred Mesa
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Venser's Journal
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Batterskull
SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Runed Halo
1 Nevermore
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rule of Law
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Aura of Silence
1 Powder Keg
1 Story Circle
2 Karmic Justice
(or 1 KJ/1 Sacred Ground, dunno)
1 Luminarch Ascension
I have nothing on this thread right now and nothing on you yespuhyren things just got serious now that IBA is going to test this out.
Given that IBA is actually testing and not durdling and "testing" the list, he actually has credibility when it comes to mono-white based control decks. The dude spawned Crazy 88 (Skullclamp control back in type 1.5) and turned a half-assed Dutch Stax deck into somewhat a feasable established metagame deck (Quinn) with a plausable draw engine and early game strategy (something that Dutch Staxx sucked on).
@IBA:
I am still not sold on the Venser's Journal idea. The no max hand size is cool (since if you have a massive hand, you can just Scroll half your library to your hand) but its at 5 mana. The lifegain is good too. I was actually thinking of Elixir of Immortality for lifegain and shuffle effect but you still have that seven card limit.
Also, why Tormod's Crypt and not Relic of Progenitus. I also like the idea of Grafdigger's Cage as not only it shuts down Snapcaster Mage, but it also shuts down Green Sun's Zenith.
Personally, I would remove both Sacred Mesa and run three Batterskull. That card is a beating against aggro. (maybe a 2-2 split with Goblin Charbelcher)
And for Agrivian Find, what about Noxious Revival on that slot instead? You can 'set-up' discarded or used Terminus with it. Although I understand the card disadvantage behind Revival.
I've always wanted to run Wasteland in Quinn but it just doesn't fit. I know you're still running the Snow-draw engine with Scrying Sheets but Would a one or two-of Wasteland be okay here? It also deals with lands that produces more than one mana.
Also, why no Mox Diamond?
I'm not sold on Journal either, it's an idea I'm testing out. It may be nothing more than the danger of cool things, ultimately.
And you'd take out the Mesas only because you've never had Lens + Mesa in play. In fact that card's the only reason I would run a MWC list these days without Elspeths. Giving all your lands T: Put a 1/1 flyer into play is actually amazing.
Crypt is over Relic for the obvious reason; you want to be able to recur things- including possible Crypt- with Find. Drawing a single card is less relevant than this. Most decks utilize the graveyard in some way in Legacy, and you can always shuffle Crypt back with Scroll Rack anyway.
Cage is more reasonable but has the drawback of not affecting many graveyard effects; it won't shrink a Mongoose or Goyf or Knight, for instance, and it won't end Crucible or Academy Ruins or Life from the Loam shenanigans.
I don't like Noxious Revival at all. Paying life is a problem, as is the card disadvantage and the need to wait a turn. The mana less isn't an important bonus by the time you'd use it, so really the only big pro is that it can give you back a Terminus.
Mox Diamond there just isn't the room for nor the land count. It's only good with an active Land Tax, and the list is trying to avoid that trap.
@K-Run:
I'd like to see your latest build.
@TaxMan
Too.
Both:
Elspeth I think its the key card, charbelcher is good, but it makes the deck basic land dependant.
Elspeth however contributes with 3 of the roles we need - Protection to all enchantments and a way to kill opponent avoiding humility + moat, we can consider the card as a card that is difficult to kill. Maybe 2 is the number.
So, I'm definately playing plateaus, althouth I have to get them! and more city of traitors.
I'm trying the New Digger (dont remember the name artifact 2 ability 3), I think its great, it also cotributes with 2 important roles.
And related to the C.Balance match up.
Definately putting in pyroblasts seem a great option but not sure, I remember the list from the past and thinking in going back up to 3 A.Of silnce. this card seems to shine and more when you have plenty of number, I'll take out nevermore.
this card avoids E.Explosives, oblivion ring, oblivion stone, pernicius AND LED, petals,
its also good vs MUD and the sneak attack envhantment.
AND makes all these spells costs 2 more!
I'm really thinking in putting in 4 and lets a try.
Also senseis is good but does not fit in here, with our nedle main well want to name it sometime for sure.
Regarding the mana base I will need maybe 20 lands 4 moxen diamond (people don't play this gem...) and 1 c.mox.
Still 4 b.wish... theyre so good...
Please let me know your thinkngs!!
Need to make top 8 with this soon!
@TheInfamous...a and rest:
E.Tutor must be played as 4 of in this decks as a concept.
I think both A.Find and Noxius revival are shit copared to b.wish.
First thisnk on the creatures you really need to kill: 2 lacaky maybe and d.confidant, this last is important, for the rest, dont mind as we have moat OR humility plus x to win.
Conculsion: terminus and swords can be useless, you simply need to focus on key cards and make them resolve.
The b.wish->replenish for that reason has been so great in those games, of course I can win with b.whish->terminus - scroll rack abeyance. but that is simply not the direction of the deck.
And another point to make it clear:
About Path vs Swords:
With path opponent choose to put a land or not, tha means the following:
The opponent has the decision so this is only usefull if:
1. The opponent does not know what your playing
2. The opponent is a bad player
3. The opponent will going to put an extra land TO:
3.1. Almost win the game because is a good player
3.2. Almost lost the game because is a bad player. This is the usefull one.
Thats simple.
I'll take Swords always as a 4 of, the option of leaving a player an extra land in legacy is no comparable with the for sure gain x life.
My personal Point, I started to test the deck with no swords and no path and still dont regret them, again, they re not the direction.
Wanting Humility + Moat + Elspeth is just greedy. Moat is itself kind of a crapshoot. Also getting to ultimate Elspeth is tricky as Hell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Also Charbelcher really doesn't make you basic land dependent, you don't have to kill them all in one go with the card.
Having redundancy on Rack effects is pretty important. If you need to name Top with Needle, just shuffle it away with Scroll Rack.Quote:
Also senseis is good but does not fit in here, with our nedle main well want to name it sometime for sure.
This sounds more like an article of faith than anything else. Why? Drawing multiple Tutors is miserable.Quote:
@TheInfamous...a and rest:
E.Tutor must be played as 4 of in this decks as a concept.
I have no idea what you're talking about or how you're trying to win if you don't have creature removal. This deck is useless without creature removal. Absolutely worthless.Quote:
I think both A.Find and Noxius revival are shit copared to b.wish.
First thisnk on the creatures you really need to kill: 2 lacaky maybe and d.confidant, this last is important, for the rest, dont mind as we have moat OR humility plus x to win.
Conculsion: terminus and swords can be useless, you simply need to focus on key cards and make them resolve.
The b.wish->replenish for that reason has been so great in those games, of course I can win with b.whish->terminus - scroll rack abeyance. but that is simply not the direction of the deck.
If your opponent is choosing not to gain a land with Path, then it's drawback-free removal, whereas StP would have a drawbackQuote:
And another point to make it clear:
About Path vs Swords:
With path opponent choose to put a land or not, tha means the following:
The opponent has the decision so this is only usefull if:
1. The opponent does not know what your playing
2. The opponent is a bad player
3. The opponent will going to put an extra land TO:
3.1. Almost win the game because is a good player
3.2. Almost lost the game because is a bad player. This is the usefull one.
Thats simple.
I'll take Swords always as a 4 of, the option of leaving a player an extra land in legacy is no comparable with the for sure gain x life.
My personal Point, I started to test the deck with no swords and no path and still dont regret them, again, they re not the direction.
@TheInfamous
Regarding to
This sounds more like an article of faith than anything else. Why? Drawing multiple Tutors is miserable.And the rest of things.:
It is ok for you, for me at least I prefer to draw as many E.tutors as I can. So stop discussing.
As I said E.Tutor is the card the deck is based around, in conjuntion with Tax and S.Rack and Silver Bullets. Simple and Easy.
Well, sorry but I don't see your ideas of the deck in that direction. Don't disccus with me in that direction. Thanks anyway.
@TaxMan and K-Run still awaiting your ideas about above.
@Pelikanudo:
I don't know if Maverick is popular at your place, but you have no outs if Gaddock Teeg hits the battlefield before Humility.
If you play Plateaus, you should play Charbelcher as well. Plateau being a Mountain, belcher deals twice the damage...
Anyway, here's what I'll be playing tomorrow. I also added a link to my current decklist in my signature. You can always refer to that page for the most recent updates.
Main deck:
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Pithing Needle
1x Cursed Totem
4x Mox Diamond
4x Scroll Rack
1x Wildfield Borderpost
1x Batterskull
3x Land Tax
2x Humility
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Luminarch Ascension
15x Plains
1x Karakas
4x Crystal Vein
1x Mistveil Plains
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Tithe
3x Noxious Revival
4x Terminus
Sideboard:
1x Rule of Law
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Jester's Cap
1x Humility
1x Greater Auramancy (I had a free slot; anything better than that?)
1x Luminarch Ascension
1x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Timely Reinforcements
1x Grafdigger's Cage
4x Banishing Stroke
Due to metagame considerations, I decided to run Cursed Totem over Grafdigger's Cage in the main deck.
I'll let you know how the tournament went on Sunday.
Ummm, no. I do not think people really are grokking how this discussion forum thing works; I don't stop discussing something just because you inexplicably want me to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Tutor is bad in multiples, and stuffing your deck full of 1x silver bullets is equally bad. You don't want to be drawing a bunch of card disadvantage and useless chff, even with Scroll Rack.
@K- Run:
Have you tested Lens?
Alternate ideas along the same lines as Borderpost/Crystal Vein:
Lotus Vale
Remote Farm
Ruins of Trokair