[Deck] Death and Taxes

Is it worth it to go 1/1 split on the Recruiters? Just curious because I'm finding that I REALLY want an effect like Kor Skyfisher. Protecting a Sword/Jitte or to make them waste Jitte counters and removal, non-legendary bounce, non-Karakas bounce (PKN/Flickerwisp). Delver blocks for 1W seems super also.

As far as the red splash goes, can't you get your double red easily off magus?

Edit: I'm debating dropping a Cavern for a Plateau, putting my list to a 2/2 split. The second non-creature red source dedication opened up the idea of 2x Lightning Bolt in the sideboard. It was posted a page or 2 back, and I dismissed it fairly quickly. Now, I'm unsure, since I dislike using Blood Moon effects while giving them basics. It also gives reach. My problem is that it's possibly a dead card due to mana, and it's not board pressure. Anyone have arguments/actual experience with this situation?

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Just curious because I'm finding that I REALLY want an effect like Kor Skyfisher.

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Stonecloaker is an option, however it doesn't bounce noncreatures in exchange for other additional utility on top of those Delver blocks, saving creatures from removal, saving Mangara from himself, etc.

I'm considering some number of Ancient Tomb in my mono :w: list also, though I forget how the testing with that idea went.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

I'm debating dropping a Cavern for a Plateau, putting my list to a 2/2 split. The second non-creature red source dedication opened up the idea of 2x Lightning Bolt in the sideboard. It was posted a page or 2 back, and I dismissed it fairly quickly. Now, I'm unsure, since I dislike using Blood Moon effects while giving them basics. It also gives reach. My problem is that it's possibly a dead card due to mana, and it's not board pressure. Anyone have arguments/actual experience with this situation?

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I've tried Lightning Bolts before, I think they're not really what you want to be doing. I like Path a lot better if you need to up your removal. Small creature decks are generally Wasteland decks, so you really don't want to have to fetch Plateau t1 to kill a Mom or Delver. One of the few upsides Bolt had was that it could, in theory, kill a Jace, and now there will be fewer theoretical Jaces to theoretically bolt (it never actually happened.)

how did the testing with Renegade Rallier go? the day it was spoiled i predicted it would be a great addition to the gw deck, was i right?

It's a splash 3 drop that gives you a Wasteland when there's a splash 3 drop that gives you a Blood Moon.

I'm definitely sticking with mono white. I hate splashing. That being said, what does everyone think of boarding or dropping Sword of Fire and Ice for another creature? I know it's just a good equipment but it was best vs. Miracles and otherwise was at best the second equipment we tutor up.

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Originally Posted by Marungo

I'm definitely sticking with mono white. I hate splashing. That being said, what does everyone think of boarding or dropping Sword of Fire and Ice for another creature? I know it's just a good equipment but it was best vs. Miracles and otherwise was at best the second equipment we tutor up.

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I definitely loved Sword against Miracles so it may have dropped off a bit, but it is still the best Sword on raw power level and I like having that option. In particular, if you are sticking with mono-white you will (I am assuming) have more Mirran Crusader and Serra Avenger slots than people who are splashing. These two are very, very good with Swords. An extra option outside of Jitte that is easily castable without Stoneforge is also good to have access to. I am not opposed to keeping other swords in mind, but with less Miracles War and Peace has dropped a lot in value, and the other swords may have relevant protection colors but the abilities are more lower impact.

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Originally Posted by geneyquakes

I definitely loved Sword against Miracles so it may have dropped off a bit, but it is still the best Sword on raw power level and I like having that option. In particular, if you are sticking with mono-white you will (I am assuming) have more Mirran Crusader and Serra Avenger slots than people who are splashing. These two are very, very good with Swords. An extra option outside of Jitte that is easily castable without Stoneforge is also good to have access to. I am not opposed to keeping other swords in mind, but with less Miracles War and Peace has dropped a lot in value, and the other swords may have relevant protection colors but the abilities are more lower impact.

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Oh don't get me wrong it's Fire and Ice or nothing. I actually am struggling to find room for avenger currently but I want to don't get me wrong. Overall I just question the necessity of the sword anymore but we will see more in the coming days

I don't think SoFaI is cuttable. It's generically good and is important against TNN

I 4-0'd with a list one card off from DisgruntledElk's list from the previous page. Red splash felt great. I beat Burn, Bomberman, Merfolk, and Elves.

4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswepth Heath
3 Plains
2 Plateau
3 Karakas

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Stoneforge
3 Flickerwisp
2 Revoker
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sanctum Prelate

4 Vial
4 StP
1 Batterskull
1 SoFI
1 Jitte

2 Sudden Demise
2 Council's Judgement
2 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
1 Canonist
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Cunning Sparkmage
1 Pia and Kiran
1 Containment Priest

So this is what I have been playing around with. I still need to test it out way more but I like a lot of it in theory. I had been playing with Caverns before, but I wanted to add Sudden Demise so I bumped up the natural red count. Seven is still low, but I also wanted to try out Ghost Quarter. The 4-3-3 Waste-Port-GQ split is admittedly very arbitrary and it is really pushing it on the colorless sources. I think less than 4 Wastelands is insanity, and Port is still very important, buy I want to draw GQ early and often enough that I get a feel for how it plays. I played this 75 a bit last night to mixed results. I am going to run it in a few longer events and jam testing games over the weekend to get a better idea.

The deck felt quite good against UWr Mentor, even though Magus was pretty irrelevant. GQ wasn't an extra Waste, but it was able to take them off of Red post board, cutting off some their artifact hate. Spirit of the Labyrinth was very good against their 12 cantrips plus Jace strategy.

I got crushed by elves (surprise!), but they had very resilient turn three kills and my sideboard cards didn't come up or were too slow.

I lost a pretty close 1-2 match in the DnT mirror. Opponent was on mono-white. I got stuck on lands and out-Jitted. Lack of Serra Avenger hurt, as they were faster and bigger in the air, so the Jitte advantage snowballed quickly.

Overall the sideboard and lands were pretty sub-optimal for these specific matches, but I want to try them in a bigger range of matchups to get some better information.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the splash gets worse if Delver lists start running Stifle, right? Like if UR Delver starts seeing a lot of play, it's kinda just back to mono-white, yeah?

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Just practice vs Stifle Delvers. Stifle is a skill testing card for both sides and is something everybody in Legacy has to learn how to deal with.

It's one of my favorite cards to play, and I've had several times where it plus wasteland won me the game. It's why I worry about it.

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Unless they lead with a DRS it is often hard for them to maintain holding a mana for Stifle. Could always bait Stifles with SFMs and Recruiters. Generally for me, it's always been the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Medea_

@oopsmissedtrigger
I think it's Colo that plays both. He plays a three cavern build and splashes one or two of each. I don't think something like a Badlands is going to be playable; even the mono-white version is hurting on white sources.

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FTR, this is my current list - the Sideboard isn't tweaked to the new/upcoming Metagame at my LGS yet, but I already made some changes to take on what I _think_ will become more prevalent. Most notable change is going all-in on Faerie Macabre over Surgical Extraction, since the splash damage aspect of being able to extract Terminus doesn't seem relevant to me any more. With this exact mainboard list, I'm 11-0-1 in matches (not games) over the last three tournaments I attended at my LGS when playing D&T.


4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Stonecloaker
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer
1 Orzhov Pontiff

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

9 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls


SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 2 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 1 Mirran Crusader
SB: 1 Apostle's Blessing

Even without fetchlands, we have so many targets for Stifle (SFM, Vial, ETB triggers) that I don't think it's too much of a worry. You have so many different things to be doing that them holding up Stifle mana can actually help you stay ahead.

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Originally Posted by Marungo

I'm definitely sticking with mono white. I hate splashing. That being said, what does everyone think of boarding or dropping Sword of Fire and Ice for another creature? I know it's just a good equipment but it was best vs. Miracles and otherwise was at best the second equipment we tutor up.

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I've been sticking with mono white for some time now and love it. Then again, I'm also running Godsend to fight TNN/Leo/Eldrazi and it's especially good on an Avenger. One equip I'm testing soon also is Necropouncer. +3 power and haste with all our fliers and an equip of :2: seems good.

I've been unhappy with swords of X&Y for a long time and finally decided to cut them. Maybe they'll get better if Decay numbers drop with Miracles gone now, who knows.

I cannot under any circumstances believe that Necropouncer is better than SoFaI. The last thing I want in my deck is a dead-weight, 6 drop, non-creature spell. I don't even love Batterskull at this point, and that has much more utility. Godsend is more reasonable, but its awkward mana cost and 3 equip cost are two strikes against it. I did a quick search with scg's database and mtgtop8, and that Godsend has never ended up in a Legacy deck with results. I'm willing to entertain all sorts of thoughts, but you're really going to have to work to convince me that either of those cards are good.

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Originally Posted by Medea_

I cannot under any circumstances believe that Necropouncer is better than SoFaI. The last thing I want in my deck is a dead-weight, 6 drop, non-creature spell. I don't even love Batterskull at this point, and that has much more utility. Godsend is more reasonable, but its awkward mana cost and 3 equip cost are two strikes against it. I did a quick search with scg's database and mtgtop8, and that Godsend has never ended up in a Legacy deck with results. I'm willing to entertain all sorts of thoughts, but you're really going to have to work to convince me that either of those cards are good.

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Yes, it's six mana to cast. But we have Stoneforge. It also comes with a body. Godsend allows you to attack or block regardless what's on the table, but I'll agree it does feel awkward sometimes. Worst case, its something your opponent can and must answer. Unanswered it dominates combat and presents an uphill battle for the opponent.

I can get behind Godsend in theory, since it is another angle for interacting with True-Name Nemesis on the ground - but a 6-Mana, 1-Toughness Living Weapon equipment just won't cut it in this format. There's plenty of better equipment available in its stead.

Why there are only 3 copies of Flickerwisp in RW D+T? I mean I like the card a lot and don't wan't to play less than full set? Is this because Miracles is gone but then again it's till good against Delvers and plenty of other decks?

I'm also wondering why no Serra Avenger? I'm not an expert but want to make these things clear? SA is similar as Flickerwisp good against Delver decks and is one of the few ways we have to push through the damage with TNN on the board.

Lastly I finally decided to give RW D+T a try and of course my first game was against Elves. I manage to win though with the help of Ethersworn Canonist, Containment Priest and Sudden Demise. After that I realized that RW version is indeed quite a bit of better against Elves and while not make the mu good makes it reasonable at least which is good enough for me given the fact how bad the mu otherwise is. Another thing is that Magus of the Moon is really sweet. I still remember my friend went 6-0 at the local store a while back with Painter and it was mostly due to Blood Moon.

That said I must admit that I probably gave too little credit to the RW D+T till now and that it's indeed a good deck although I still love mono white version. So, in the upcoming future I'll stick with the RW version due to Elves and because free wins here and there that Magus provides are always nice.

I really agree with the assessment of dropping Flickerwisp. I think it was Bahra who said it, "Once you play enough with Death and Taxes, you realize Flickerwisp is great and always a 4-of." This is my assessment and I totally agree with it. I also was aware of the SoFaI use against TNN. I'll stick with it going forward and don't get me wrong I love the card, but if TNN doesn't become the force we expect, I think cutting is very reasonable. Just thinking outside the box here. That being said I have been working a little and built a solid mono-white deck that I played vs Lands, Grixis Delver, Storm, and 5C Control. I had a winning record against everything but storm and I at least felt like I had a shot vs storm. Anyhow here's the list:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Serra Avenger

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

11 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas

SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 2 Rest In Peace
SB: 1 Sanctum Prelate
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage

Flickerwisp is insane. Anyone who argues otherwise hasn't played the deck enough.

In the mono white builds, 4x Flickerwisp is absolutely correct. In the RW build, I'm not sure if we have space for all four plus all the other stuff. I think we need more [true] two drops right now. There is an absolute ton of combo running around. In lists that don't run pingers, I might cut a Recruiter to bring back the fourth Flickerwisp.

Why exactly is everyone putting batterskull back in the main?

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Originally Posted by Medea_

Flickerwisp is insane. Anyone who argues otherwise hasn't played the deck enough.

In the mono white builds, 4x Flickerwisp is absolutely correct. In the RW build, I'm not sure if we have space for all four plus all the other stuff. I think we need more [true] two drops right now. There is an absolute ton of combo running around. In lists that don't run pingers, I might cut a Recruiter to bring back the fourth Flickerwisp.

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Oh I can totally see it in the splash versions. By the way it felt really nice to not have 10 3-drops and have 8 instead. Something to be said for that. List felt real solid and consistent.

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Originally Posted by Medea_

Flickerwisp is insane. Anyone who argues otherwise hasn't played the deck enough.

In the mono white builds, 4x Flickerwisp is absolutely correct.

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Truth.

On this note has anyone tested/considered testing Glimmerpoint Stag? Or the new cat that's apparently rocking standard right now? Not saying they'll be good, but... it'd be very nice to run nine wisps. They're never dead.

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Originally Posted by DarthVicious

Truth.

On this note has anyone tested/considered testing Glimmerpoint Stag? Or the new cat that's apparently rocking standard right now? Not saying they'll be good, but... it'd be very nice to run nine wisps. They're never dead.

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I hope we can agree that Stag is a weak Flickerwisp. If you can start a description of a card that way, it really does not make the cut except occasionally in combo.

...What cat?

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Originally Posted by Finn

...What cat?

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Felidar Guardian. Never mind, that's worse than the Stag now that I read it. Only flickers your permanents, costs four, and is 1/4.

Stag is a weak Flickerwisp, but these are the only cards that produce this effect from what I can tell. Displacer is close enough for me to get repeated uses out of birth triggers.

If I wanted more Flickerwisps, I'd just play a Displacer or a Restoration Angel. Those cards are great, but even they are at the edge of playability in this shell.

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Originally Posted by c2232

Why exactly is everyone putting batterskull back in the main?

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SoWaP was really good against the mirror and Miracles. With Miracles gone, it is probably not the right way to hedge anymore.

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Originally Posted by Medea_

SoWaP was really good against the mirror and Miracles. With Miracles gone, it is probably not the right way to hedge anymore.

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True, I'm just not so sure Batterskull fills any sort of need. I'm thinking other swords could be good, maybe even a second Jitte.

Has anyone ever tested Basilisk Collar?

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Originally Posted by iatee

Has anyone ever tested Basilisk Collar?

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I played it for like one day. It was fun.

In a red build with pingers and a bunch of first strike creatures, it might be fine. I'm not sure it fits any role we *need,* but it is interesting. I'm not sure where I fall on the pinger vs Sudden Demise train as well.

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Originally Posted by Medea_

I played it for like one day. It was fun.

In a red build with pingers and a bunch of first strike creatures, it might be fine. I'm not sure it fits any role we *need,* but it is interesting. I'm not sure where I fall on the pinger vs Sudden Demise train as well.

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Which pinger are you liking the most? Sorry to pester with all the questions, but I need to buy all the extra colored splash cards.

I like the idea of Goblin Sharpshooter (once I purchase my second and third plateaus I will try it), but I am just curious where you testing is leading you as I purchase the pieces needed.

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Originally Posted by iatee

Has anyone ever tested Basilisk Collar?

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Yes, and it doesn't do enough imho. Strapping it onto a pinger is cute, but that's about it. Equipment has to boost stats (or be bonkers-broken like Jitte) for D&T to matter. I'd rather play Quietus Spike (which I've never tried), because it turns any leftover critter into a respectable clock.

Goblin Sharpshooter has been too slow in my testing (with Imperial Taxes) in the matchup where it matters most (Elves!) - if it had haste, things would look different, but turn-4-at-best is too late too often.

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Originally Posted by vtml1984

Which pinger are you liking the most? Sorry to pester with all the questions, but I need to buy all the extra colored splash cards.

I like the idea of Goblin Sharpshooter (once I purchase my second and third plateaus I will try it), but I am just curious where you testing is leading you as I purchase the pieces needed.

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Iatee has played Cunning Sparkmage and Fireslinger in the past, I believe. I conceptually like Sharpshooter (the idea of wiping the opposing board is really appealing), though it is a touch slower than other options, and not a human if you are on a Cavern build. The real question is whether pingers are better than Sudden Demise.

Edit: Someone tried Quietus Spike on MTGS once. It didn't perform well and we didn't hear much about it.

Yeah, I have tried all the pingers at this point. Sharpshooter is a very powerful card for 3 mana but the surprise factor of Sparkmage is worth a lot and...it's human. I also like Fireslinger quite a bit, I think Sparkmage is marginally better but not drastically better.

One thing that nobody has been doing (that seems reasonable for our new meta) is playing multiple copies of pingers. Like if 2-3 Sudden Demises is justifiable, 2-3 Sparkmages should be too, or perhaps a mix.

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Originally Posted by Medea_

Flickerwisp is insane. Anyone who argues otherwise hasn't played the deck enough.

In the mono white builds, 4x Flickerwisp is absolutely correct. In the RW build, I'm not sure if we have space for all four plus all the other stuff. I think we need more [true] two drops right now. There is an absolute ton of combo running around. In lists that don't run pingers, I might cut a Recruiter to bring back the fourth Flickerwisp.

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I might go back to playing the 4th Wisp. I had originally cut the 4th Wisp because I wanted to find a way to put Pia and Kiran Nalaar in the maindeck. Once resolved, it was as good or better than Flickerwisp in fair match ups.

One very marginal thing to note is that you can flicker Cunning Sparkmage for an extra ping, but you can't do so with any of the other pingers.

with the up-tick in storm, is it worth considering 1-2 thorn of amethyst or extra Vryn in the board? possibly in place of 1 gideon (I've been on the RW build with 1 in the board) seems strong to me and worst case scenario they have to decide whether their artifact removal is better used on our equipment or the thorn. yes, i know its not tutorable, and ive only been playing this deck on and off for a few months so take this with a grain of salt. just want to flesh out an idea.