I dare you to open a [SCD] thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
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I dare you to open a [SCD] thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
It is not nessecary since it is not about how Yavi Elder works out in general, but about how it works out in one particular deck, the GB control rock. You won't open a SCD on Merfolk Sovereign either, you discuss it in the Merfolk thread. Also note that your GBW and Andreas GB Rock are both good decks but that they work in a completely different way. So Yavi Elder would suck in your version as much as Qasali Pridemage would suck in his (even if he'd play white).Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
_
To Y. Elder in general: I try to explain why in this version he is so valuable and imo irreplacable.
The deck is set up to win in the late game, it can stall with Discard, Deeds, Smothers and Pulses/ Putrefys until finally he will have a big problem in dealing with your Prog. And if he can counter your NOs then you will have good chances to outdraw him. And here shines Elder. He gives you a lot of card advantage and in combination with Stronghold a strong draw and deck thinning engine. Furthermore he has obviously good synergy with NO and Therapies.
So if you'd play a different creature in his spot in THIS deck then you'd have to find a creature that does all those things for you. If you'd just increase the number of Finks and removal you would weaken your late game too much.
In the current metagame with so many tempo decks have pernicious and yavimaya elders for play a land a turn is good enough to take a look.
Its a fact that Rock always was a good deck thanks to pernicious, and its a fact too that the more lands you draw, better is pernicious. So, why yavimaya elder is so much bad card?
I'm playing rock since vampiric tutor was legal in extended and then yavimaya elder was a 4 of and then white isn't played too. This is why this list took my attention.
I will quit extirpates and putrefys too but I will play birds, beeb able to play NO in turn 3 against a not blue deck its great.
Cards I would run over Yavimaya Elder:
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Lotus Cobra
Veteran Explorer
Why? Because they don't cost 3(!) mana.
Thats a ridiculous post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
You completely ignored my post and instead of contributing something useful you list cards that are mana acceleration while Y Elder is played for card advantage. Those cards have absolutely nothing in common so there is no point in comparing them. If you dont have anything useful to say then dont say anything at all.
Fine, I can see why you want Y Elder. I'm still not sold on him.
Different subject: if you're building a The Rock deck where you take advantage when your creature dies, wouldn't you like to run Recurring Nightmare? It should be pretty cool to sac your Kitchen Finks or Y Elder if you have him, to recur your Witness.
Thx for contributing something useful. I love Recurring Nightmare and I guess it could work if you replace Smothers with Shriekmaws. Otherwise you just don't have enough creatures because the deck is already quite low on victims for Therapy and Order. Not being able to shoot Manlands, Vialed creatures, Confidants and Noughts would hurt a lot though.
Overall I think Rec Nightmare is not worth it (despite how much I would want it to work). NO is just a brokener abuse of the creatures you have in play.
I posted this some days ago, I tested a list with veteran explorer for acceleration and kitchen finks and bloodghast to gain card advantage. It was a very fun deck to play with XD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al-ucard
Hey, long time Rock player, new Source poster here
I think something that would help to keep in mind is what kind of list we are looking to make; The Rock as an archetype is known for its flexibility and versatile (and sometimes excessive) removal, but what needs to be determined is exactly what niche in the metagame we want the deck to occupy, as that will largely determine what stance to take with the deck.
As I see it, there are 3 different subtypes of Rock:
Aggro, Aggro/Control
Cheap, efficient beaters with a solid discard package to apply early pressure, coupled with some LD elements (wasteland, vindicate) and removal (again, vindicate) to keep your opponent on their heels. Different from Eva Green in that we don't necessarily want dark ritual to explode out of the gates, but similar in that the decks share alot of the same elements - Goyf, Thoughtseize, Hymn to tourach, Confidant. On that note, out of the three subtypes, this is the one that wants to play Confidant the most, as CA is definitely needed going into the midgame, but is not as relevant as in control builds as hopefully we can finish things up before getting into the late game.
I'm not exactly sure what metagame this type of deck would be most suitable for, as it is the one I have experimented with the least. Any input would be much appreciated.
Note: An interesting deck to check out following an aggro-rock theme: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=15669
Control Rock
Control Rock wants to see matchups against decks like counterbalance/top, landstill, and aggroloam (although aggroloam is generally a good matchup with any Rock deck). These games will frequently go to the lategame where the Rock can abuse its recursion and abundant removal to effectively deal with the few threats that these decks typically have and then take over. Cards this deck plays are along the lines of Volrath's Stronghold, Eternal Witness, Pernicious Deed, Recurring Nightmare,Gigapede and the like. Tempo relevant cards like Birds of Paradise don't really have a place in this kind of Rock. Card advantage is paramount here.
Relative to the current discussion, this is where Yavimaya Elder would fit in, although I am somewhat skeptical of its actual effectiveness myself. Sure, extra land is what makes Deed great, but since they go to your hand it doesn't mean they come down any faster.
NO Rock (Aggro/combo)
I've been playing this deck a lot lately, and you can check out my evaluation of the deck here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...&postcount=67), over in the NO Rock thread. It combines a flexible Rock shell with a completely game-winning combo; a reliable finish can sometimes be tough to execute in traditional Rock builds.
This isn't to say, however, that Hybrids aren't viable; indeed, one of the reasons that The Rock can be so good is the ability to shift its strategy to match that of the opposing deck, and combining elements from every strategy will help accomplish that. There should, however, still be a concerted focus in one direction in order to maximize synergy.
On another note - @skeggi - I really like your inclusion of Elspeth in your list, I recently got the idea to fit it into a more controlling build myself (I'll likely be posting a control version soon). How did you find Confidant in your build? It seems to me you are running a lot of high CC spells ie Elspeth, Tombstalker. After all, one can't always find a Top...
PS - what is the deal with the opener/primer of this thread? it seems to be missing completely
EDIT: Sorry for being a bit repetitive, I hadn't looked over the entire thread for a few weeks and realized there was a pretty good explanation near to the start. Seeing as there looks to be a new group of posters, though, a refresher seemed pertinent. Also the meta has changed dramatically which has somewhat invalidated some cards... For example Finks is just way better than Loxodon Hierarch nowadays as Zoo and Merfolk are rampant
I think you forget RockSur. Rock shell with survival, that match quite good.
I've got a Rock-ish list that is up for discussion, this is the link to my post:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=15904
I'll post the list here for your convenience:
Creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
Non-creature spells:
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Lands:
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Treetop Village
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
4 Duress
3 Infest
4 Extirpate
2 Choke
2 Gaddock Teeg
Discuss.
@brianw712: Hi, your list looks solid. Some points i have to discuss:
-KoR: i'm not a big fan of this guy, but lot of ppl include it, why not
-Loxodon Hierarch: amazing, i play it a lot and it's always a good top-deck
-Engineered Explosives: i don't understand why you play this card over a 4th vindicate and some Maelstrom pulse or even PtE if you have an aggro intensive meta.
-Treetop village: not a big fan too, it makes your land count raise for a small imput IMHO.
Yes, I agree that EE is suboptimal much of the time, and I'm trying to find a suitable replacement, but EE does a lot that Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse/Path to Exile don't do:
1. It kills token swarms, at instant speed. Maelstrom Pulse kills tokens too, but not at instant speed, which is relevant against Dredge and, sometimes, Landstill (ex: cycled Decree of Justice for surprise blockers).
2. It can provide X-for-1 card advantage. While Maelstrom Pulse can, too, it does so much less often.
3. It can kill Nimble Mongeese.
That said, Pulse, Path to Exile, and Vindicate do have their merits (usually faster, un-stifleable, ability to hit any converted mana cost). However, I just feel that EE has more to offer due to the possibility of card advantage.
Treetop Village has been amazing for me. It's fetchable by Knight of the Reliquary, it's funny when your opponent doesn't know you're playing them and they resolve a Standstill on an empty board, and it puts pressure on your opponent after you Deed away the board. I look at it in an opposite way as you: I think it lets you increase your threat count without having to lower your land count. Yes, this deck needs 26 lands, even with 2 tops. Most opening hands won't have any action until turn three (so the CIPT clause on Treetop Village doesn't really matter all that much), so its really important to make consistent land drops through stuff like Wasteland.
Thanks for the suggestions though
I'm gonna test this build. Any suggestions?
1) Is it necessary to play PDeeds in such a list?
2) Birds/Hierarchs - which is better?
3) Shall I add a planeswalker? I suppose Elspeth will fit such a build very well, but I dunno what to cut off.
4) I'm not sure with the manabase (plz, no advice about Zendicar fetches, I don't have them ^^)
5) Any suggestion on my sideboard? I'm pretty scared of tribal (merfolks/goblins), Ichorids, Survivals, Combo and decks using Progenitus.
The list is as follows:
// Lands
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Plains
2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold
// Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Eternal Witness
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Loxodon Hierarch
// Spells
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Extirpate
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
I still have same doubts about brianw712 list I posted in the other thread. Can a modern legacy deck perform well with so little turn 1 and turn 2 plays? There are only 6 1-drops (4xstp, 2xtop) and 4 2-drops (goyfs), plus maybe EE and Treetop Village activations.
@Domi:
1. I'd say PDeeds aren't necessary, but they are very, very helpful against decks that will be inevitably faster than yours is (Zoo and Dredge in particular). However, you do run a fair amount of 1 and 2 drops, so I guess PDeed kind of loses its effectiveness there.
2. I would say test them both, but just by looking at the list I am going to guess birds is better. Theres a lot of things on turn two with a turn 1 birds that you couldn't do with a turn one hierarch (vindicate, pulse, thoughtseize + therapy, thoughtseize/therapy + confidant). Of course, all this assuming you didn't get enough black-mana producing lands in your opening hand. The exalted is important, but not too important since you won't be the aggro deck most of the time.
3. Maybe, but I think there are better options than Elspeth. Garruk is a beast, and the interactions between Ajani Goldmane and Kitchen Finks are kind of cool (+1/+1 and -1/-1 counters cancel out right?). If you were to take anything out, I would take out some combination of thoughtseizes/cabal therapies, and a vindicate. Personally, I just don't think that discard is very good in today's environment (hence the lack of discard in the list I posted).
4. 21 lands and 4 noble hierarchs + 3 tops looks solid. If you're still concerned, you could change the treetop and volrath's into more duals/fetches, or you could just add more lands. Again, only testing will tell.
5. Your sideboard looks pretty well set up to handle the decks you mentioned. And this is probably a horrible suggestion, but maybe Elephant Grass? It slows down tribal (although it slows you down too--darned cumulative upkeep), makes Ichorids and zombie tokens unable to attack at all, and makes Progenitus unable to attack at all.
@crow:
Yea, most people who see the decklist have the same concerns. Speed is definitely an issue; I get a lot of hands that have no action until turn three. I've tried a fair amount of things to speed the deck up: Noble Hierarchs/Birds of Paradise, Chrome Mox, Thoughtseize/Duress/Gerrard's Verdict/Hymn to Tourach, etc. etc. The problem was, Noble Hierarch/Birds of Paradise/Chrome Mox have horrible synergy with Pernicious Deed, are only good in your opening hand, and force you to lower your land count, which makes you more vulnerable to burn (fire/ice on two noble hierarchs is pretty bad). I just don't see discard as a strategy in general very effective against most decks today, especially Zoo. The two life from thoughtseize IS relevant. Not to mention that Thoughtseize/Duress/etc. are horrible topdecks. So far, though, Swords and Goyf (and, to an extent, EE) have been enough to allow me to be in a pretty good position by turn three, when I can keep churning bombs out.
In this build Dark Confidant was very good. However, we dropped him and made quite a drastic change in build. Me and my teammate played this last Sunday at a GPT Madrid (50 people). I went 3-3 (lost the last game to Landstill missing top8), he ended third place:Quote:
Originally Posted by MrShine
ADHD Funky Rock
1 forest
1 plains
4 windswept heath
3 savannah
3 wasteland
1 nantuko monastery
1 verdant catacombs
3 scrubland
4 marsh flats
1 bayou
4 tarmogoyf
3 qasali pridemage
4 knight of the reliquary
1 shriekmaw
1 eternal witness
3 elspeth, knight-errant
4 swords to plowshares
4 sensei's divining top
4 vindicate
3 orims chant
1 umezawa's jitte
2 diabolic edict
3 Secret Tech
SB
3 gaddock teeg
2 diabolic edict
3 extirpate
3 duress
3 pernicious deed
1 path to exile
This deck is designed to handle a more combo/control oriented meta, with Merfolk and Zoo being less and less popular over here.
My teammate lost to DDANT in the semi-finals; I lost to Belcher (round 3), Goblins (round 5) and Landstill (round 6). Where I must say both the Belcher player and the Goblins player had really insanely good hands.
From RockSur I loved the idea of using Veteran Explorer. Obviously he does nothing against some decks, especially since you don't play Therapy. Against aggro decks (unless he gets stped ofc) however he would immediately allow you to start dropping your 3cc bombs.Quote:
Originally Posted by brianw712
In a 2 CC slot I would at the very least include Qasali Pridemages.
Good luck with your list, it is definitely different than most rock lists nowadays.
@ brian's list: I like the explorer suggestion...or elephant grass (similar idea but not dead late game)...or orim's chant (can get u to late game or randomly help vs. combo)...
Also, needs more terramorphic expanse...:really: .
Edit: Or maybe even elvish spirit guide...as it's not a dead card vs. control.