[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by Morden

I play Terminus because it costs six mana less at instant speed :P

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Ding!
Terminus is WAY faster than All is Dust (as in 1cc vs 7 cc) and yes, can be played at instant speed. Sure, we don't have brainstorm, but Sensei's Top is a much better card to find it with anyway. Blind flipping it also never really hurts us either. Terminus isn't fantastic in hand but it still comes down a turn faster than All is Dust as long as you have 2 white, which I haven't had problems with. My win percentage has gone up leaps and bounds with this card in my deck, which is why I have actually gone up to 4 copies. People like to over-commit to the board when playing against this deck because they just want to race you before you get your win cons online. Yesterday I had one opponent drop 3 delver, a goyf and a deathrite by turn 4 and on my turn 4 I wiped the board. Next turn I drop titan and opponent scoops. I would have been dead 3 times over with All is Dust.

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Originally Posted by drude1

Ding!
Terminus is WAY faster than All is Dust (as in 1cc vs 7 cc) and yes, can be played at instant speed.

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Personally I don't like either option...
-> Terminus is basically adding a 3rd color to an already shaky manabase and it's very difficult to cast out of your hand because there are three source of white in the deck in the UG version. I can get behind it for the WG version however.
-> All is Dust is slow and tribal, which feeds opposing tarmogoyfs.

While this is being discussed, has anyone ever tried BUG or BG 12post? You get discard against combo and toxic deluge (+ Engineered plague SB) against aggro/midrange. It may be time to start brewing. :-)

@Terminus Why should i play a card that cost Six mana with double white that i can't play when it's on my hand? Lol
Who cares about instant speed really??? If you play against a Tempo Deck it doesn't matter..stifle get it.
If they have another counter also. It doesn't change nothing. If they have creatures they attack you first before they play a another creature. If you play it instant they have most of the time more mana and a card more in the hand in their own turn.
Why is Miracle so good? They can play a BS and Terminus.
@Drude1 your example of your opponent yesterday is also bad and says nothing. Of course Terminus can be good. But you can say that with a lot cards if you would have then in hand in exactly this situation^^

Why is All is Dust better?
guys really..All is Dust takes Creatures, Lili, Jace's, enchantement's(Blood Moon and more) and some Artifacts.
All is dust isn't slow. Normaly you can play him T3-4..Don't forget your eye of gin;)
Who cares about a Goyf and tribal..lol

Just so say All is Dust is just good in the Mono G version and maybe some WG hybrids.
In the UG we don't have much space with Titan. I prefer Repeal and Momen'ts Peace;)

BUG seems just Bad..i mean Post and 3 Colours. I think it's wrong to make this deck better against Combo. I mean a good Storm Player don't care about some Discard and a slow deck. If you have a Combo heavy Meta you should follow the Anti-combo SB with some Mindbreak Traps, Surgical extraction, Permanent hate and if you play blue Flusterstorm.

Greets


Greets

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Originally Posted by maCHOOga

Personally I don't like either option...
-> Terminus is basically adding a 3rd color to an already shaky manabase and it's very difficult to cast out of your hand because there are three source of white in the deck in the UG version. I can get behind it for the WG version however.
-> All is Dust is slow and tribal, which feeds opposing tarmogoyfs.

While this is being discussed, has anyone ever tried BUG or BG 12post? You get discard against combo and toxic deluge (+ Engineered plague SB) against aggro/midrange. It may be time to start brewing. :-)

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I tried BG a few month ago... It can be really interesting! :-))) Please consider Heartless Summoning, my favorite card in that build ;-)

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Originally Posted by Pdingo

@Terminus Why should i play a card that cost Six mana with double white that i can't play when it's on my hand? Lol
Who cares about instant speed really??? If you play against a Tempo Deck it doesn't matter..stifle get it.
If they have another counter also. It doesn't change nothing. If they have creatures they attack you first before they play a another creature. If you play it instant they have most of the time more mana and a card more in the hand in their own turn.
Why is Miracle so good? They can play a BS and Terminus.
@Drude1 your example of your opponent yesterday is also bad and says nothing. Of course Terminus can be good. But you can say that with a lot cards if you would have then in hand in exactly this situation^^

Why is All is Dust better?
guys really..All is Dust takes Creatures, Lili, Jace's, enchantement's(Blood Moon and more) and some Artifacts.
All is dust isn't slow. Normaly you can play him T3-4..Don't forget your eye of gin;)
Who cares about a Goyf and tribal..lol

Just so say All is Dust is just good in the Mono G version and maybe some WG hybrids.
In the UG we don't have much space with Titan. I prefer Repeal and Momen'ts Peace;)

BUG seems just Bad..i mean Post and 3 Colours. I think it's wrong to make this deck better against Combo. I mean a good Storm Player don't care about some Discard and a slow deck. If you have a Combo heavy Meta you should follow the Anti-combo SB with some Mindbreak Traps, Surgical extraction, Permanent hate and if you play blue Flusterstorm.

Greets


Greets

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Wha? Are we even playing the same game? Why is a 1 cc instant speed spell better than a 7 cc sorcery speed spell? Do I need to answer this question? How about reasons instant speed removal is better...Entreat the Angels, elves, Tin Fins, Sneak Attack. Why is 1 cc better than 7 cc....empty the warrens, elves, goblins, any other aggressive deck that wins before turn 5. Planeswalkers are not a problem for this deck. We generally just go over the top of them or we can shut them off with needles, shoot them with Ugin or just remove them with Ulamog. The only advantage of Dust is that it's colorless. If you disagree that's fine. We can agree to disagree. Also, I am playing the card in a G/w version of the deck. I don't condone splashing for it in a u/g deck. You are conflating those two issues. And as far as saying "they can just counter it or play another creature after you terminus", that's just stupid and doesn't support an argument for any of these cards, as that's true for anything. Although All is Dust is much more likely to get spell pierced or dazed than terminus.


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I got 1st place (technically) with this list at local weekly magic:

// Lands
1 [10E] Island (3)
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [TSP] Vesuva
3 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [M15] Forest (3)
2 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Savannah

// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [SOM] Trinket Mage
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [M11] Sun Titan

// Spells
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [AVR] Terminus
1 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [R] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [C13] Bane of Progress
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm

Matchups were Omni 2-0, DnT 2-1, Reanimator 2-1, MUD 0-2 (but 1st on breakers boom!). Mud got the super bonkers hands vs me, omni wins involved having iona and/or Ulamog2.0

I am finally glad with a build of the deck. I could perhaps see a Mox Diamond added, but the mana is quite stable. My previous BANT versions of the deck ran less than 24 lands, and I tried to squeeze spaces with either GSZ or mana dorks. Just plain lands though did the job fine.

<EDIT> Included 61st card, ugin spirit dragon.

I generally agree with Drude1, the only thing that I don't like in terminus is using it in a deck without brainstorm....having it on opening hand or drawing it at the wrong moment it's painful if you don't have the possibility to shuffle it back.
On the UG build I can compare repeal vs terminus, these cards fight for 2/3 slots. I tested both, and I prefer terminus. Honestly I tested it when there was a lot of grixis deck, before dtt's ban. But now elves are coming back again, and this is another deck where terminus is much better then repeal. Repeal/moment of peace let you gain 1 turn, maybe 2, but sometimes it's not enough.
A resolved terminus basically is gg; consider this: a lot (I'd say all) of players don't expect terminus in your deck, and they play as "aggro" as they can, since everyone knows that agains 12post is better close the game asap. This lets the player with few resources in hand, and very hard to start again the race after a terminus. After all, also if they know you have terminus and they want to play around it, it's only better, 'cause a slow game is everything we need.
I didn't find any particular problem with 3 tropical/1 tundra/1savanna and 4-5 fetches.....if the early game gives you only fetches, just be patient and keep it until you can decide the right manabase that you need. I remind you, you can fetch AFTER revealing terminus and get the white mana you need...

No idea if this is for real or not.

http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/k...distortion.jpg

^ We'll have to see what the new mana symbols mean exactly. If it really does mean mana that must be colorless, then it won't be a problem for us. It does feel strange that they would add this mechanic on the new Kozilek but not the new Ulamog.

Compared to the old Kozilek, this new card's drawing power will vary in usefulness. With the old Kozilek, I sometimes already have a good number of cards in hand but then want the constant amount of four cards to dig further. Otherwise, with Kozilek being such a late-game card anyway, the new one should draw you at least four quite often.

It's that last ability on the card that makes me the most intrigued. Finally, there could be a good Eldrazi to Show and Tell in against most combo decks, giving you some defense after he enters play. I suppose our deck would mostly have one mana cost cards to pitch, but that still has a lot of use for stopping cantrips and Dark Rituals. It's also a good way to protect himself from Swords to Plowshares. All of these counters being uncounterable themselves of course.

Here's hoping this card is for real!

I’m struggling to pilot the UG build as it is. UGW seems too greedy (at least for a noob like me). The UGW build also seems more vulnerable to wasteland? Is no one worried about wasteland or am I missing some angle here? With trickbind I can at least make sure a cloudpost (or another land) survives the first wasteland, with no needles, no trickbinds you’re left with just 3 crops (that can be countered…). Apparently the build relies heavily on SnT, but still…

A typical game 2 play against me is wasteland cloudpost -> surgical extraction, leaving me with the SnT plan, which is supposed to be plan B? so making sure my cloudpost stays on the field is crucial (especially game 2). In this respect I was thinking of running 1-2 needls in SB alongside 4x MB trickbinds, but it may be going overboard?

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Originally Posted by MechTactical

I’m struggling to pilot the UG build as it is. UGW seems too greedy (at least for a noob like me). The UGW build also seems more vulnerable to wasteland? Is no one worried about wasteland or am I missing some angle here? With trickbind I can at least make sure a cloudpost (or another land) survives the first wasteland, with no needles, no trickbinds you’re left with just 3 crops (that can be countered…). Apparently the build relies heavily on SnT, but still…

A typical game 2 play against me is wasteland cloudpost -> surgical extraction, leaving me with the SnT plan, which is supposed to be plan B? so making sure my cloudpost stays on the field is crucial (especially game 2). In this respect I was thinking of running 1-2 needls in SB alongside 4x MB trickbinds, but it may be going overboard?

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Needles are usually a staple in the main deck and I would never drop them, especially in a wasteland meta. In fact I would consider running teferi's response

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While this is being discussed, has anyone ever tried BUG or BG 12post? You get discard against combo and toxic deluge (+ Engineered plague SB) against aggro/midrange. It may be time to start brewing. :-)

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BG Post already exist and works very well - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Nic-Feat-8Post

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Originally Posted by into_play

^ We'll have to see what the new mana symbols mean exactly. If it really does mean mana that must be colorless, then it won't be a problem for us. It does feel strange that they would add this mechanic on the new Kozilek but not the new Ulamog.

Compared to the old Kozilek, this new card's drawing power will vary in usefulness. With the old Kozilek, I sometimes already have a good number of cards in hand but then want the constant amount of four cards to dig further. Otherwise, with Kozilek being such a late-game card anyway, the new one should draw you at least four quite often.

It's that last ability on the card that makes me the most intrigued. Finally, there could be a good Eldrazi to Show and Tell in against most combo decks, giving you some defense after he enters play. I suppose our deck would mostly have one mana cost cards to pitch, but that still has a lot of use for stopping cantrips and Dark Rituals. It's also a good way to protect himself from Swords to Plowshares. All of these counters being uncounterable themselves of course.

Here's hoping this card is for real!

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In all likelihood New mana symbol means "cast with wastes mana" ala snow mana. Which would make this unplayable sadly. discarding lands to counter LED's sounds amazing.

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Originally Posted by MechTactical

I’m struggling to pilot the UG build as it is. UGW seems too greedy (at least for a noob like me). The UGW build also seems more vulnerable to wasteland? Is no one worried about wasteland or am I missing some angle here? With trickbind I can at least make sure a cloudpost (or another land) survives the first wasteland, with no needles, no trickbinds you’re left with just 3 crops (that can be countered…). Apparently the build relies heavily on SnT, but still…

A typical game 2 play against me is wasteland cloudpost -> surgical extraction, leaving me with the SnT plan, which is supposed to be plan B? so making sure my cloudpost stays on the field is crucial (especially game 2). In this respect I was thinking of running 1-2 needls in SB alongside 4x MB trickbinds, but it may be going overboard?

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I understand your fears, but IMHO:
1) pithing needle is a must in this deck, specially now that BUG is more present in the meta. Trickbind is not the best card against wasteland; it's great against some bad matchups like elves, storm, and everything has a horrible triggered ability. A turn1 needle is never countered, the only problem is that you reveal your deck early (not a big deal really). Once needle is on the ground, only abrupt decay is the real menace, g1 there are not so many artifact destroyers.... I think rishadan port is sometimes worst than wasteland! That card really hurts me...trickbind on port is useless. At the moment I'm running 3 needle main and 2 trickbind main, nothing on side. Usually some of their slots are replaced by sideboard cards.
2) crop rotation is another card against wasteland. NORMALLY an opponent shouldn't counter a crop against wasteland. Unless you are in mana screw, there is no reason to loose 2 cards to destroy a land....it happened a lot to me, opponents tried to destroy cloudpost at any cost and then they had no protection against S&T or other menaces. So keep your crop in hand until a wasteland hits you or EOT before you really need a particular land; or just for the shuffle effect.
3) wasteland->surgical is typical for BUG deck; against those type of deck you have a lot of answer for this situation: trickbind and surgical on wasteland in response, rest in peace, relic of progenitus (wait its surgical, tap in response, use the "exile all" ability if the opponents answers again). of course, sometimes it happens that surgical hits you deeply.....
4) S&T in my opinion is plan A. It's so easy to have titan on the floor on turn 4 with it and ramp easily throught emrakul. Of course if surgical erases all your cloudpost on game 2 S&T is less effective, but it can be good if you show a wurmcoil for example.

Did Teferi's Response http://magiccards.info/in/en/78.html was taken as solution to all your fears (wastelands, ports) or even Vindicate :-)

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Originally Posted by Fatal

Did Teferi's Response http://magiccards.info/in/en/78.html was taken as solution to all your fears (wastelands, ports) or even Vindicate :-)

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Teferi is a GREAT card, but honestly it's hard for me to replace trickbind/needle with it. Trickbind is also very usefull against storm/elves/stoneforge (other than again wasteland of course). Needle is faster and, again, usefull against other things. That 2 cards drawing sounds very very attractive, but I don't know.....teferi's destroying effect is good, but useless against wasteland

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Originally Posted by drude1

So I have a larger legacy tourney coming up this weekend. I'm going to try an amalgamation of my list with terminus and ehhhh's list with GSZenith. What do people think of this....
3 X primeval Titan
1 X veteran explorer
1 X Kosilek
1 X Nulamog
1 X Emrakul
4 X crop rotation
4 X sensei's top
3 X pithing needle
2 X candelabra
3 X expedition map
4 X Terminus
2 X Ugin
3 X Green Sun's Zenith
1 X dryad arbor
1 X bojuka bog
1 X Eye of Ugin
1 X tabernacle
1 X karakas
1 X thespians stage
1 X cavern of souls
1 X glacial chasm
4 X cloudpost
4 X glimmerpost
2 X vesuva
4 X windswept Heath
3 X forest
1 X plains
2 X Savannah

SB
1 X scavenging ooze
1 X Melira
1 X Gaddock Teag
1 X rec sage
2 X Canonist
2 X krosan grip
4 X leyline of sanctity
1 X surgical extraction
2 X mindbreak trap

SB is very open. Don't know if I love the traps as they are only for storm. Also not sure if Melira is worth it. It's one MU and Melira seems a little slow. I feel like I am missing low cc creature removal, but in play testing it hasn't been too much of an issue. Again, looking for any input, especially from booze or ehhhh, as you guys have a lot of history with this type of deck. Thanks.


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I actually like Melira in your build, especially on the play. Infect can technically win on T2, but they usually wait to sculpt. And it's pretty unlikely that they'll bring in Dismember before they see her.

I'm actually not a fan of the Canonists. They're live to more removal, and you can't tutor for them with GSZ. I think you'd be better off with either Sphere, Mindbreak, or Trinisphere for your Storm hate.


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Originally Posted by Hopo

No idea if this is for real or not.

http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/k...distortion.jpg

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It's apparently confirmed as real.

The issue is though we don't know what <> means. That will affect the playability because Legacy is the format that this new Kozilek is the most playable because every deck that doesn't main four Chalice of the Void plays a ton of 1 mana spells, including 12-Post, so there's fodder and targets.

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Originally Posted by Mockingbird

It's apparently confirmed as real.

The issue is though we don't know what <> means. That will affect the playability because Legacy is the format that this new Kozilek is the most playable because every deck that doesn't main four Chalice of the Void plays a ton of 1 mana spells, including 12-Post, so there's fodder and targets.

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I'm 90% certain that <> means "colorless only" (which is obviously much better for us). Here's why:

1) If they're introducing a new type of mana that can only be paid for with a new type of land, a small set is the least likely place to do it.

2) Maro has mentioned multiple times on his podcast that he wished there was a mana symbol for colorless mana they could use instead of numbers.

3) Wastes are basically just Barry's Land, which they've wanted to make for years.

4) It opens a HUGE area of design space. Essentially, it allows them to treat colorless as a new quasi-color while being 100% backwards compatible. It's like adding a sixth color without breaking the color wheel. Having a colorless-only symbol means that they can cost things in a way that makes people treat colorless-producing sources in the exact same way as they would treat a colored source instead of just throwing it in. You can't just auto-splash for it; you have to specifically construct a manabase to cast these. This will let them design colorless cards that they otherwise couldn't design. Example:

Kozilek's Removal Spell
1<><>
Instant
Exile target colored permanent.

This would previously be impossible as a traditional colorless card, as they can't give Red access to such efficient enchantment removal. But it's perfectly fine if colorless functionally plays like a second color, so that you can't just run Mountains.

Seriously, the design space this opens can't be overstated. It's something that could easily become deciduous, like hybrid mana.


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Thanks for all the tips!

I was reluctant to include pithing needle because I’m new to the format and would not know what to name with it. Trickbind is used reactively, which means I can hold it until I see what I’m up against. But I guess If I always name wasteland (pre-emptively) it could work? Trickbind had a target in every match up and counts towards FoW, which I’m running SB. Morden might I ask for your list? How many SnT are you running? I was running 4, but I am considering going down to 3...

BoozeMan I hope you’re 110 % right about this…

EDIT: if you are right, i just might dump some cash into this release...