[Deck] 12 Post

Kozilek Return is probably much better then new Dismember, first and therefore new "Dismember is only "-3/-3" which mean id doesn't kill goyfs most the time, (even without creature most tempo decks can easy make goyf 3/4 - sorcery, instant, land) for sure it's best actually answer against delver without paying life dismember hurts a lot specially vs Grixs or RUG which have bolts as reach factor.

I would took analysis with Kozilek Return as probably worth splash card, but after few lists I still concident that B/G splash is still best removal (not hate vs combo !) configuration. Deeds and Decay cover all important threads from current meta, which G/R can't answer preboard (enchantments and artifacts, for example MD blood Moon or Back to Basics, which happens in Merfolks (surprise ==') can be very nasty, similar to fast tempo equipment. Abrupt Decay answers Delver best since it's uncounterable, same to each other painful cards like mention upper. Black also gives best answer to Monastery Mentor - Dread of Night, but with Pernicious Deed MD it's probably not worth, PD cover those pesky tokens with Mentor as whole.

Eventually problem is with Combo - like always to B/G decks, I splash a little white for Gaddock to hardcast (and under 4 GSZ), but even with 6 discards it's still not best MU which I can face. I added additional Sphere or Resistance and 2 Memoricede (mostly for Sneak but still useful vs Storm). I found that most important is not to die before turn 3, if you miss early discard it's mostly game since Storm player will just discard yours or keep hand with bounce/removal for your turn 3 Gaddock which ended brainstorm -> kill.

Anyway G/R doesn't give more answers vs fast combo, Pyroblast helps to stops assamble combo, but doesn't stop combo itself which mean you will be just dead turn 2-3. I think G/b gives more angles to consider like discard + hatebears, instead of Hatebears and Pyroblasts..

yes, basically my idea at the moment is to use kozilek's return if you splash with red, and keep spatial contortion for classic UG build.
Some notes about kozilek's return:
-it's very hard to kill a mentor with it hardcasting it, since our opponent needs only a spell to make the mentor a 3/3. With spatial he needs 2 spells.....
-goyf: a build with a goyf has also DTS 95% of the time, so using kozilek's return from the graveyard could be problematic.

I thought a lot about BG build, but here is my fear: colorless mana is .....a color. Having 4 cloudpost/4 glimmer/2 vesuva takes a lot of slots and reduces the consistency with colored spells. Abrupt decay and pernicious deed need both one green and one black mana. what's your classical list and how do you manage this lack of consistency?

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Originally Posted by Morden

I thought a lot about BG build, but here is my fear: colorless mana is .....a color. Having 4 cloudpost/4 glimmer/2 vesuva takes a lot of slots and reduces the consistency with colored spells. Abrupt decay and pernicious deed need both one green and one black mana. what's your classical list and how do you manage this lack of consistency?

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Having black anywhere in your list at all probably absolutely necessitates Deathrite Shaman. I can't speak for Fatal, but a few people have tried splashing black here in the past:

beez: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...267#post868267
winglerw28: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...823#post865823
Another modification of the above from wingler: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...048#post866048

As far as Kozilek's Return goes, it might actually be good enough to make the cut, at least as a sideboard card. An interesting thought is that it's possible it doesn't actually have to go into a RUG list: Rock Lee experimented with an R/G "Nic Fit" style list in the past, and perhaps there could be some redundancy there. My guess is if it is playable, the red splash probably has to be pretty light: otherwise it probably would make more sense to just run Volcanic Fallout to guarantee it resolves. Another thought is that perhaps it could be run alongside Sulfur Elemental, in which case it probably would be a lot more possible to wipe out Monastery Mentor and his little army of dorks: even taking an extra point from the Mentor every turn is preferable to having an ever-growing army of idiots who also get bigger.

Another Tuesday, another undefeated weekly magic with G/w Post. List is as follows:

// Lands
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
2 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
3 [ME] Forest (2)
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
2 [U] Savannah

// Creatures
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 [BNG] Courser of Kruphix
2 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya

// Spells
2 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [RTR] Pithing Needle
2 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
2 [LG] Sylvan Library
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 [BFZ] Retreat to Kazandu

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [MMA] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [IA] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 [M15] Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 [DK] Maze of Ith

I could see running x2 moment's peace over the Retreat to Kazandu's. If you want to squeeze in Knight of the Reliquary, drop one courser, and x2 retreat/moment's peace.

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Originally Posted by Zotmaster

As far as Kozilek's Return goes, it might actually be good enough to make the cut, at least as a sideboard card. An interesting thought is that it's possible it doesn't actually have to go into a RUG list: Rock Lee experimented with an R/G "Nic Fit" style list in the past, and perhaps there could be some redundancy there. My guess is if it is playable, the red splash probably has to be pretty light: otherwise it probably would make more sense to just run Volcanic Fallout to guarantee it resolves. Another thought is that perhaps it could be run alongside Sulfur Elemental, in which case it probably would be a lot more possible to wipe out Monastery Mentor and his little army of dorks: even taking an extra point from the Mentor every turn is preferable to having an ever-growing army of idiots who also get bigger.

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of course, red brings a lot of nice cards into the list..... sulfur against miracle of course, volcanic fallout is also nice...we'll see....I'm also waiting january ban list: if for some reason they ban SDT (I don't know why they shoud do this, but this card is always there when people talk about ban :laugh:) I will surely remove the white terminus splash to go into red.

Question, Rock Lee, how do you like Courser? I am thinking of including 1 of him in the mono green build for SCG Cincinnati. Also I have been playing with Void Winnower ("you can't even") and as far as I can tell when he hits the table it tends to make most people cry and scoop. I have not lost a game yet when resolving a Void Winnower and I lose a ton of games. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Your posts are all 3-4 words long, hoping for expansive or helpful insight from people who put in more work than your shallow comment. If you elaborate I'll be glad to inform you of this decks combo matchups.

Otherwise, troll elsewhere, this thread has plenty already.

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Ok, How do u beat combo decks like ANT when ur first game it's almost a bye vs them and they can combo u in first-2nd turn in nexts games?

I'll be happy if u respond to me.

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Originally Posted by fluuu

Ok, How do u beat combo decks like ANT when ur first game it's almost a bye vs them and they can combo u in first-2nd turn in nexts games?

I'll be happy if u respond to me.

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I know you didn't ask me directly but I can help answer that question. Part of it depends on what color or colors you are running. The basic way you battle Storm is the same: do your best to float answers with Sensei's Divining Top and reveal them when the time is right. Most combo decks that can kill you early utilize the graveyard in some way: the obvious answer here is Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog. Most of the time, yes, it's go to Game 2, but unknown opponents will more often than not spend at least a turn or two sculpting their hand before trying to go off in order to minimize the chance of failure.

You should have various answers in your sideboard. Flusterstorm should be in your list if you run blue. Sphere effects - Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, and Thorn of Amethyst can be there in any configuration. Relic of Progenitus is a helpful, if not flawless, solution. Surgical Extraction can go a long way if you knock out Ritual effects; alternatively, if you hold it until Past in Flames is cast, you can knock out a Tutor effect with it. Mindbreak Trap stops them cold. Even Krosan Grip has a sneaky use to it: if an opponent tries to cast more than one Lion's Eye Diamond, you can destroy the first in response to the second, which essentially is a Mana Leak. Trickbind stops the Storm copies if you run it.

The key in all of this is to mulligan aggressively until you have at least an answer or two in your hand. An early Top works wonders to help you dig for your answers: as stated before, float them on top of your library until needed, as Storm doesn't really have a way to interact with that. Yes, sometimes you get killed on Turn 1: that's kind of a "nut draw", and pretty much every deck in Legacy wins if they nut draw: that's why we call it that.

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Originally Posted by Morden

yes, basically my idea at the moment is to use kozilek's return if you splash with red, and keep spatial contortion for classic UG build.
Some notes about kozilek's return:
-it's very hard to kill a mentor with it hardcasting it, since our opponent needs only a spell to make the mentor a 3/3. With spatial he needs 2 spells.....
-goyf: a build with a goyf has also DTS 95% of the time, so using kozilek's return from the graveyard could be problematic.

I thought a lot about BG build, but here is my fear: colorless mana is .....a color. Having 4 cloudpost/4 glimmer/2 vesuva takes a lot of slots and reduces the consistency with colored spells. Abrupt decay and pernicious deed need both one green and one black mana. what's your classical list and how do you manage this lack of consistency?

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http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Nic-Feat-8Post - stable mana using also Vet as basics fetcher.

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Originally Posted by Brendelton

Question, Rock Lee, how do you like Courser? I am thinking of including 1 of him in the mono green build for SCG Cincinnati. Also I have been playing with Void Winnower ("you can't even") and as far as I can tell when he hits the table it tends to make most people cry and scoop. I have not lost a game yet when resolving a Void Winnower and I lose a ton of games. :tongue:

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what evens have you been finding you are stopping? almost every single removal spell is odd cmc, and the blocking component seems unused.

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Originally Posted by Brendelton

Question, Rock Lee, how do you like Courser? I am thinking of including 1 of him in the mono green build for SCG Cincinnati. Also I have been playing with Void Winnower ("you can't even") and as far as I can tell when he hits the table it tends to make most people cry and scoop. I have not lost a game yet when resolving a Void Winnower and I lose a ton of games. :tongue:

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I like Courser as a 1-2-of. The card is often a must counter for grindy decks, and edges you through the 3-4 life that you often just barely lose by before stabilizing. Obviously with top the card becomes degenerate, but simply avoiding "dead" draws is also clutch.


I have been testing Yeva, Nature's herald a good bit if you're looking for G/w sass.

Void Winnower shuts down Terminus, Tendrils, Empty the Warrens, Painters Servant, abrupt decay, Ancestral visions, Jace, Thalia, Stoneforge, Natural Order, Sneak Attack, Tarmogoyf, All reanimation spells except Reanimate, Primeval Titan in the mirror. If they are using STP you probably are winning anyway. I do see your point though. Thank you for your response it was greatly appreciated.

Color me intrigued.

http://i.imgur.com/s9nL4ZS.png

http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/oathofnissa2.jpg

This seems like it might be interesting for builds that can't play either Ancient Stirrings or Brainstorm. The second ability is pretty irrelevant, but the ETB is almost a Ponder.

Rock, what are your thoughts on how good the new Kozilek is?

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Originally Posted by MGB

Rock, what are your thoughts on how good the new Kozilek is?

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I think new kozilek is huge for U/G, and could have a build centric to just itself with heavy colorless focus. I think it is bad in mono green without candelabras, ok in mono green with heavy candelabras, but best in a blue shell with show and tell, tops, and cmc 3 spells to pitch.

Kozilek is what was needed for me to pick up U/G again. Tragically G/w is treating me extremely well, winning multiple weeklies in a row now.

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Originally Posted by Zotmaster

Color me intrigued.

http://i.imgur.com/s9nL4ZS.png

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This card could be interesting, but at the moment I don't find any slot for it

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Originally Posted by Morden

This card could be interesting, but at the moment I don't find any slot for it

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It likely isn't good enough, at least not in any conventional list. One of my thoughts is that at some point it might be possible to make a mono-blue list, which would offer the luxuries of better protection and card selection. My thought on that card in particular is that it's the most efficient asymmetrical card draw on a permanent ever printed since Book of Rass, which is a 6-drop that costs you two life per card. It's efficient because it doesn't require colored mana to draw cards, which is a huge bonus. At a glance, it also seems to be one of those cards where you may have the luxury of using it to speed-bump some creature and you probably aren't really that upset if an opponent uses some sort of removal spell on it. Perhaps it's not even as good as even Mystic Remora, but it's interesting enough that I wouldn't immediately reject the card out of hand: at the very least, I think it warrants some thought.

By the way, how much can you change the Mono-Black variant that's currently being played in the SCG Modern Open?

SCG's down, but the list seems really interesting for fusing with one of the versions here.

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Originally Posted by Darkenslight

By the way, how much can you change the Mono-Black variant that's currently being played in the SCG Modern Open?

SCG's down, but the list seems really interesting for fusing with one of the versions here.

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Do you have a link to a list?

EDIT: Never mind. Found it: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...h_jacob_b.html

I'll take a look and I'll comment later.

EDIT 2: Here are my initial thoughts, without brewing or anything, and in no particular order:

- The deck is interesting and, if my friends who play Modern are to be believed, growing in popularity.

- Some replacements seem easy enough. Cloudpost is mostly just a better Eldrazi Temple. Candelabra of Tawnos is mostly a better Mind Stone. You could replace Ghost Quarter with Wasteland. I'm sure Glimmerpost can fit in there somewhere.

- Removal package is interesting, if not amazing. Slaughter Pact is a bit of a scary proposition in Legacy. Dismember is obviously fine. Go for the Throat would probably be replaced by something.

- I don't think the creatures really cut it in Legacy. I get the obvious plan here: exile a bunch of stuff to turn on the Processor abilities. Wasteland Strangler seems particularly bad: it has to make it onto the battlefield for its ability to actually work, its ability isn't really strong enough to kill things you'd really want to kill, and its body isn't really big enough to do much, either. Blight Herder isn't terrible, and Oblivion Sower is all right, but they're just sort of...dudes. I mean, they hit stuff, but without more access to hand and/or board disruption, I'm not sure they represent a good enough clock to actually pressure most Legacy decks.

- Getting early grave hate down notwithstanding, without access to counterspells or Crop Rotation, I'm pretty sure this deck just drops its pants and bends over to most forms of combo. You'd probably have to make discard a huge point of emphasis in this build; especially with the much, much greater access to card selection that Legacy boasts. The two best diggers in Modern are complete crap in Legacy.

EDIT 3: Caught his on-camera game on the re-broadcast on the SCG stream. I'm still not fully convinced the deck will translate well to Legacy, but I might try brewing something on Cockatrice at some point.

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Originally Posted by Zotmaster

EDIT 3: Caught his on-camera game on the re-broadcast on the SCG stream. I'm still not fully convinced the deck will translate well to Legacy, but I might try brewing something on Cockatrice at some point.

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I saw the rebroadcast as well. Deck seems hilariously good in Modern (the format where they ban control out of existance 99% of the time), and combo is incredibly weak so all that is left is hyper aggressive aggro and graveyard abuse. Thus this deck running 10 anti aggro cards main, 6 more in the sideboard.

I don't see this deck translating to Legacy as well, since Legacy has an extremely healthy and varied distribution of decks and archetypes (possible exception of grixis delver), but I might start playing this in Modern over Lantern Control, seeing as I own all the expensive cards already.