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I did some experimenting with SDTop in Goyf Sligh. It's a pretty long post, so I gave it its own thread. In short, the jury is still out but the deck would need to be retooled a bit to run Top. Also, I doubt that I would run both Top and FoD in the same build.
I see some potential with the 2 new beaters from Shards
Woolly Thoctar the 5/4 guy for :w: :g: :r:
Wild Nacatl the 1/1 kirdape for :g:
Wild Nacatl gets +1/+1 as long as you control a Plains.
Wild Nacatl gets +1/+1 as long as you control a Mountain.
That forces of corse for a light white splash!
So that is my list that i have in mind:
Spells (41):
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Figure of Desteny
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Woolly Thoctar
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Helix
3 Fireblast
2 Price of Progress
1 Krosan Grip
Lands (19):
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswhept Heath
3 Plateau
1 Savanna
4 Taiga
4 Mountain
1 Forest
Sideboard (15):
4 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
2 Shattering Spree
4 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Price of Progress
The white splash offers some wride sb cards but i am not sure which and how much...
- Orimas chant: Cheap disruption against combo to buy a turn ftw.
- Mana Thite: Suprise counter!?
What do you think?
I have not tested it so I cannot say for sure, but I think that the Woolly Thoctar is not good for legacy in particular goyfsliegh. I think his casting cost of three is too expensive, especially since he cost three different colors.
The other guy (Wild Nacatl) might have a place in the deck although once again probably not. The only problem I see with opening up into other colors is being more at risk to wastelands. Plus whites side options still IMHO don't measure up to the black splashes ability to drop bob and go to town.
Also I don't see how either of those guys would be played over figure of destiny, who seems to outclass both of the creatures and fits well into the deck as it is.
your build might be better for a slower zoo style with jitte and vial.
I built an interesting version earlier today that went well in some test matches:
4 Figure of Destiny
2 Kird Ape
4 Tarmagoyf
3 Keldon Marauder
4 Mogg Fanatic
1 Jaya Ballard
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Wilderness Elemental
2 Rancor
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
3 Magma Jet
2 Price of Progress
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
2 Forest
7 Mountain
Sideboard is still iffy:
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Vexing Shusher
2 Pyroblast
2 Shattering Spree
I'm sure many of you will balk at the creature base, but Jaya and the Wilderness Elemental have both been interesting. I won a couple of times, because they helped me break out of a bad situation against DragonStompy. I also figure that by some loose logic, if Price of Progress is playable main, then Wilderness Elemental can't be horrible.
Also, I like having the diversity in casting cost against counter/top scenarios. They usually don't hav emuch at three, so those serve as bailout cards sometimes. I also like Shucher in the board a lot. I'd love to find room for one or two main.
I also really like the rancor. I don't like it enough to want 4 in here, but the extra damage really does help the cause. It punches up the damage level while also giving you effectively a reuseable threat. They have a much harder time chumping your creatures.
I was looking for a build with a little more balance without destroying the power level. The only thing I might change is the Magma Jet for Rift Bolt.
Skyshroud war beast is way supperior than wilderness elemental in an enviroment the last is good... so betwen the two, play the war beast
I would play Price of Progress always as a set of 4,they are amazing.
Wilderness Elemental IS bad. Your opponent has to have 3 nonbasics in play to make him better than Skyshroud Elite. With one nonbasic in play, Elite is 2/3 and Elemental is 1/3. Keep in mind that savy opponents will be avoiding playing as many nonbasics as possible (it's no secret that GoyfSligh/Burn decks run PoP). This further weakens Elemental. For :1::r::g: I'd play BurningTreeShaman before that guy.
Actually, both Skyshroud War Beast and Skyshroud Elite seem better than than the Elemental. I also like the fact that they aren't red. Thee are only a couple of situations where it should matter, but still.
And I totally forgot about those guys when throwing this build together.
Seems like a good idea. Make them pay a life to top, activate deed/explosives, recur artifacts/creatures (with the lands or genesis), wasteland or survival, activate manlands and what not...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Rotten
(Genesis is a triggered ability. Maybe someday I won't draw almost won matches because my opponents insist on calling a judge because of Genesis.)Quote:
Originally Posted by XSivPSI
I have been trying a list that goes something like this:
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Kird Ape
4 x Skyshroud Elite
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Quirion Dryad
4x Brute Force
3 x Berserk
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Chain lightning
4 x magma jet
4 x Bloodstained Mire
4 x Wooded foothills
4 x Bayou
4 x Taiga
4 x Badlands
1 x Mountain
SB
4 x Cabal Therapy
4 x Tormod's Crypt
4 x Pyroclasm
3 x Red Elemental Blast
It is probably not the strongest build in the world but hell is it fun! The Brute Force work so well with the Quirion Dryads and are useful at building up to a huge berserk. I have swung in for 20 on turn 3 before with a boosted dryad, the tramply goodness is always funny. I think berserk is a great choice for the deck although it is hardly a budget choice, not that the deck is cheap to start with. The clasms are great in the SB as they rarely hit my own guys at all, especially good for dealing with empty the warrens/goblins/elves. The therapies are good against any combo I never really mind saccing a kird ape or similar as it buys me so much tempo. What do you guys think?
Burning Tree Shaman is really good in this format. It deals a lot of damage as Fetching now costs 2 life and it basically destroys Top. It's a solid 3/4 body as well although the manacost may be a little bit prohibitive in this dec, but I really advise all the Goyf Sligh players to try this out. I once played against a Red ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh deck which packed these badboys and they kicked my ass. All of a sudden I had to Deed for 3 instead of 2 and my Top cost me life so I had to hope for topdecking a land (needless to say I was pretty low on life that game).
Although I like BTS and will concede that he MAY be playable in this meta, I haven't tried him for a few reasons.
First, he is simply out-classed by most of today's critters. Many critters are bigger and come out just as early - Goyf, Tombstalker, Dreadnought, Doran, Terravore, and Crusher. Many critters simply provide more utility - Confidant, Grim, and Witness.
Second, against fetchlands, his ability is best used early. The opponent may already have - and be able to function on - three lands. He doens't solve Top issues; he just hinders them a bit.
Third, he hurts you also. Grim, Fanatic, SB Crypts, and your own 6-8 fetches now hurt.
Despite those negatives, I still have considered him, but ultimately my first listed reason prevents me from running him.
Lands (20)
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
4 Mountain
2 Forest
Creatures (16)
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Woolly Thoctar
Spells (24)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Incincerate
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
Sideboard (15)
3 Price of Progress
3 Krosan Grip
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Tormod's Crypt
This is just an experimental list.
I really like the power-to-cost ratio of the new beaters in Shards. They are obviously not as good as Goyf, but still. Wild Nacatl is a 1cc 3/3 just like Nimble Mongose... it doesn't have the Shroud, but "gro'ing" to 3/3 is easier for Wild Nacatl in this deck; potentially turn 2. Woolly Thoctar is huge at 5/4 and gives the deck a solid 3-drop to round out the aggro base.
I like to run alot of Burn in my lists, since Burn is really good against alot of decks. 24 burn spells makes sure my creatures don't have many blockers and then goes straight to the dome as soon as the manplan is compromised.
I don't like FoD. It's versatile and makes functional use of dead mana sources mid-late game, but it's power-to-cost ratio the entire game is horrible. 1 mana 1/1's, 2 mana 2/2's, and 5 mana 4/4's just seems really bad to me. The deck should rarely, to never, be able to pay 11 mana for an 8/8 with mediocre abilities.
I still like Kird Ape... 1 mana for a 2/3 is still the biggest after Nimble Mongoose and now Wild Nacatl, and Mongoose grows too slow in this deck. Fetching for a basic Forest on turn 2 works pretty well in here since the deck runs alot of green. With all the burn in this deck, clearing blockers for a 2/3 to swing through is really good, IMO.
I don't run Price of Progress maindeck because of the 3rd color splash. The color splash probably isn't worth losing PoP, but that's why this is an experimental list.
The deck does seem a bit vulnerable to combo decks though, so I'm not sure what should be done to fix this. The maindeck cannot really afford to be weakened by adding in discard or anything. The sideboard can be fooled around with, Gaddock Teeg seems pretty good... but I don't know if it's enough.
The sideboard is just thrown together for now.
The deck has been playing well so far but I'll post more once I play some more.
The current problem with "burn the blockers and swing" plan is that too often the blockers' asses require 2 burn spells. Burning Goyf and Tombstalker ain't easy and they seem to be everywhere.
Between Ape, Nacatl, and Thoctar, you are allowing any player running Wasteland (and to a lesser extent, Port) or simple LD to really mess with your beater plan. I think your EvaGreen match could become worse. I also hate removing PoP from the main.
I hate relying on my lands to make my beaters good. :mad:
Well yea, burn isn't always going to be effective at clearing blockers if the opponent has Goyf or Tombstalker, but it's still an effective plan usually. The deck has 4 Woolly Thoctar's of its own to make up for creature size and Wild Nacatl + Lightning Bolt answers most of the aggro I see. Mostly, the deck just uses the burn in the first few turns against blockers and then goes to the dome after that; my list runs 24 burn spells and easily turns into a Burn deck if it needs to.
The weakening of the manabase is really dependant on metagame, really. If the metagame has alot of Wasteland, then yea. Blood Moon doesn't hurt the deck too bad though, and the only time Wasteland is going to do serious damage to the manabase is in multiples or in combination with other LD.
I think the white splash is worth playing around with for a while before dismissing. Eva Green does not seem like remotely large enough of a metagame concern to keep the deck away from 3c.
Unfortunately, I do not believe this deck is going to really improve much or become optimized more beyond a few meta slots or preferences without something truly significant being printed that is specifically R/g. Adding in a third color takes the deck more into the lines of Zoo and Boros with splashes, and while that may not necessarily be a bad evolution, it is however not Goyf Sligh. I honestly believe the deck is competitive as is when people aren't expecting it, as they just grow overconfidant then wonder why two bolts, a goyf, and a pop for 8 ruined their day.
What the deck truly needs is one of two things, if not both: A solid threat that is light on the mana requirements (1G/1R, 1RG, 1RR, 2G/2R) that has either a solid P/T Ratio or is medium sized with a relevent ability. BTS Falls into this category of medium sized with a relevant ability, and I think he's worth looking at even if 3/4 is smaller than 4/5, 5/6, and the like.
Two, the deck could really use more manipulation. Right now it has the classic deck strategy of Redundancy, redundancy, redundancy.... but occasionally your lands get in the way and only 4 Magma Jet scrys will not save you. Magma Jet should never be removed from this deck, as the smoothing it provides is invaluable, but another 2 damage for 2 mana spell that maybe cantrips, or even a 2 or 3 mana creature that's in the 2/1 or 2/2 range respectively that cantrips would be of great help in providing both an additional threat and another card. Sylvan Library goes a long way in helping this problem, as I believe Matt has figured out, since tossing away life for cards is something this deck can often do... but It would be nice to have something, like jet, that fits the redundancy strategy of the deck a bit better than Library.
Anyway, this wouldn't be a post in the DTB forum without a list, so here is my current list:
Looks pretty standard. I haven't jumped on the FoD bandwagon yet as, well, I don't even own them and haven't done much playing with the deck lately as I've been focused on another project. The 4x Card slot could be FoD, or I typically bounced between either a split of Flame Javelin and Seal of Fire, or Hearth Kami. Particularly in New England where I play tournaments the most, Maindeck artifact hate is never dead. I ran Kami over TSH because I could actually play the card out and beat and not have to hold it in hand waiting for the Dreadnought or chalice to be played. Doing a split in that slot of Library and Grip wouldn't hurt either.Quote:
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Keldon Marauder
4x Card of Meta Choice.
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast
3 Price of Progress
Lands (19):
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
8 Mountain
1 Forest
Anyway, that's my viewpoint on the deck. The lists can't really get much better than they are now (as most lists are only 4 cards off from eachother at most) without the printing of something else really significant that is focused in red and maybe a splash of green. Right now Nacatl and Thoctar are not those significant cards. Maybe for Zoo, but not for Goyf Sligh.
I'm not sure your classifications of Sligh, Zoo, and Boros are completely accurate. It's a bit harder to measure than that.
I'm under the impression that Zoo decks tend to be more aggro than burn, while Sligh decks tend to be more burn than aggro. Boros is simply a classification for W/R weenie/burn decks, per the theme of Boros. Playing big green fatties and burn is more like Gruul than it is Boros, IMO.
Out of the different playstyles and gameplans, I think my list most closely relates to Goyf Sligh, although it does have some characteristics of all the decks mentioned.
With this deck, what is your best plan against combo?
As far as I can tell, there's no way to keep them from going off or anything or disrupt them.
First, the only combo deck that you really have any game against is Ichorid. Don't fear that deck, your match up is at least even with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by PowrDragn
If your meta is full of Storm/Belcher combo, put away GoyfSLigh. But, in fairness, your clock is at least decent and if Storm combo has a poor hand, you could win the race.
IMO, don't SB for storm combo. You're using a thimble to bail out a row boat.