[Deck] Eva Green - B/g suicide

to the people that are splashing white in the deck, wich mu makes this better?

i mean, splashing white reduces your tempo, gives you an unstable manabase and what mu's does it makes better?

the white splash makes your only more vulnerable to burn(because of price of progress, and that you need too fetch more times than needed to get the right mana) it weakens your dragonstompy mu because of moon. it weakens your tempothresh mu because all of the wasteland and stifles, and probably many other mu's like muc(back to basics), suiblack and pikula like decks because youre more vulnerable to land desctruction.

but which mu makes the splash better then? even goblins plays land disruption so even that mu wont be better.

and reanimate, i havent test it so i'm not gonna say its bad but i cant see how the big life loss is that good. are you serious that unearth isnt better?

please complain to me why the white splash makes the mu's for this deck so much better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kikkofrio

SB:

- 3 jitte
+ 3 sanctimony

for goblin, burn, boros and moon effect

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Warmth > Sanctimony

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Originally Posted by electrolyze

and reanimate, i havent test it so i'm not gonna say its bad but i cant see how the big life loss is that good. are you serious that unearth isnt better?

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Reanimate is better than unearth because it hits your opponent's threats. Also, if they stp your dudes you are out of luck. Also, tombstalker has delve.

All that being said, I don't think reanimate is very good. I think I would rather just play more threats. Unless you are already playing 16 and wanted to play 17 or 18, and couldn't find another creature to fit. Then reanimate might be ok.

About the white splash, I really don't like it at all. I think it weakens the deck without providing enough in return. But some people are all about it so I think it's kind of a wash to get into a pissing contest. I do however feel that the deck is different enough to post another thread...especially if we can have a seperate thread for the various flavors of threshold, and Red Death/Eva Green/Sui Black are all in their own respective threads.

Suckerpunch, since you seem to be the deck's most adament endorser, that would probably be a good thing to do to spark discussion instead of causing a rift in this thread. There are obviously two different schools of thought and continuing here is fruitless for both parties.

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Originally Posted by electrolyze

but which mu makes the splash better then? even goblins plays land disruption so even that mu wont be better.

and reanimate, i havent test it so i'm not gonna say its bad but i cant see how the big life loss is that good. are you serious that unearth isnt better?

please complain to me why the white splash makes the mu's for this deck so much better.

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Please just read the thread.

Neither Reanimate, nor the white splash was my idea. Clark Kant, advocated it and after I read about it (i think the thread was called Suicide Pox or something) and realized that I had the cards lying around. I PMed him and he PMed me his current list which is what I built and posted. Only after I tried the list for myself, did I see the splash to be worthwhile.

So I'm not going to get into a huge debate over something that's not mine.

Both the question of Reanimate and the white splash have been covered and explained on several occasions. And just about every one that tried the white splash admits that vindicate is a house, saves your ass all the time and worth the splash. The only matchup where I prefer the green splash is versus landstill. Everywhere else, Vindicate is so much more versatile than Seal, rounds out you LD package and gets you out of tons of situations that seal doesn't help you in to make it worthwhile.

Reading back to the old posts, this was a point made elsewhere. But you know as well as I do that...

There has never ever been a BW deck (including deadguy) that ever opted to run Seal of Cleansing (Seal of Primodrium's clone) in place of Vindicate. Vindicate made into every BW deck and Seal of Cleansing pretty much never made the maindeck.

Here is a great quote on the subject from when it was discussed in another thread (I think the Suicide Pox thread)...

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Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely

Well, I've been thinking about what I said about Vindicate, and I have to take it back. Vindicate is better than Seal of Cleansing, and if it cost :1::b::g:, it would replace Seal of Primordium in Eva Green (I actually discussed this with Anwar). The greater mana cost is almost certainly overshadowed by the versatility, and the ability to maintain pressure on an opponent's scarce resource.

I'll echo Hummingbird's suggestion of splashing both colors, and just replacing Eva Green's Seals with Vindicates. The question we're left with is whether or not Vindicate is worth the jump to three colors.

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You can argue the merits of whether splashing a third color is worth it or not, from what I've seen, it doesn't effect the deck much at all, but you can argue that. But to suggest that SoP is generally superior to Vindicate for any reason other than that SoP is green, is intellectually dishonest.

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Originally Posted by nitewolf9

But some people are all about it so I think it's kind of a wash to get into a pissing contest.

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Exactly, there's no need to get into a pissing contest over the white splash.

If you don't think it looks good, don't bother with it.

Ultimately, budget factors into magic too. The only reason I went ahead and tried the white splash was because I already had the neccesary cards lying around from Deadguy.

I suspect that a lot of people here don't have scrublands and vindicates and StPs lying around. If that's the case, then don't spend another $150 to get the cards and play the splash.

Ultimately Eva Green and Eva White Green are functionally so similar that its not going to be worth a $150 worth of investment to make the switch.

As for another thread, the two lists are maybe 3-5 cards off. Both builds function nearly the same.

This isn't like UGr Thresh vs UGw Thresh where there are massive strategic differences.

This is a lot more akin to Uw Dreadstill vs. Ug Dreadstill, both of which are happily discussed in the same thread because they're only a few cards apart and strategically very similar.

So I don't think another thread is justified.

As you know, I've been looking for a replacement for Nantuko Shade as a 3 of.

So far, I've considered Phyrexian Negator and Ashenmoor Gouger.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

The card that I am seriously considering is...

Doran, The Siege Tower.

A 5/5 for 3 mana without a drawback is a steller deal. In addition, he gives your goyf +1/+0 as well.

But running him, you offer up 11 creatures that are 4 turn clocks that must be killed off immediately.

And that's not counting the 4 Hypnotic Specter that also must be killed immediatley or will gain you a massive advantage rather quickly.

That's just far too high a threat density for any legacy deck I can think of to be able to deal with. Just don't over extend and even mass removal can't deal with this.

Of course, there are disadvantages to Doran as well.

He's harder to cast than Ashenmoor Gouger due to the color requirements.

In fact, by playing him, suddenly, it may be worthwhile for us to cut Dark Ritual for Birds of Paradise to support the colored costs while accelerating the deck turn after turn, and serving as a 1/1 flying beater to boot. And in doing so, the BB cost in Hippe becomes questionable and it maybe replaced by the much cheaper Skyshoud Elite that works as 1cc 3/3 under doran and a 2/3 without.

But while I wanted to bring up this idea, I don't think going that route is fruitful. Doing so would mean we would be investing in green heavily and it would have to be just as prominently featured as Black. This also makes cards with BB in their casting cost suddenly up for debate.

So really, I'm not sure if this is a fruitful direction to pursue.

It would be a different deck entirely, and I would create another thread for it, but ONLY if enough of you think it is a fruitful pursuit.

More likely than not, the deck is best off just very lightly splashing one or two colors.



He is in color, but I fear his mana cost may still be a problem.

Doran....he's hot for sure. I think you really hit the salient points with regards to his pros and cons although I don't think that removing hippie makes sense if you are going to add birds to help the mana situation.

I am loathe to not have my first turn brokenness with ritual. I think you can take it the way of the doran with a slightly slower deck, but I think the birds will make it more consistent but then heavily reliant on green.

When Eva was only 2 colors it was a cinch to cast things. At 3 I am sometimes have a Vindicate sitting in my hand just waiting for a Scrubland.

Has anyone considered running Putrefy over Vindicate?

Putrefy has some advantages over Vindicate:
-It does pretty much the same job,
-You don't have to splash withe and weaken your manabase.

The main disadvantage I can see is the lack of versatility of Putrefy because sometimes you want to disrupt the opponent's manabase with Vindicate (I consider the capacity of destroying enchantments not relevant).

It's an interesting suggestion. I am leaning towards no because there are enchantments that I like blowing up (Ghostly Prison etc) and as you said, game winning plays like blowing up your opponent's only remaining land aren't possible with Putrefy.

But it's a good thought nonetheless. Problems artifacts far outnumber problem enchantments, and being able to blow up creatures in a pinch is fantastic utility and among the biggest advantage that Vindicate has over Seal.

As for Doran, I dropped the idea.

I came to realize that the moment I try to support Doran, the manabase becomes unwieldy. I would have to made it more green dependent and play Birds of Paradise over Dark Ritual.

Essentially my deck would morph into something similar to Tombstone. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...718#post266718

I think that strategically, Eva Green is superior to Tombstone, though I may be biased. And it seems like Doran simply doesn't offer enough of an advantage over it's alternatives Ashenmoor Gouger and Phyrexian Negator to make the change worthwhile. I prefer the explosiveness that this deck offers to going with a slow controllish route.

I think we just have to play 3 Putrefy instead of the 3 Seals.
I dislike Seal because I often have him in hand or on the table being useless, and I'm sure Putrefy is rarely a dead card.
But I really don't like splashing white because I already have mana problems with 2 colors. A tempo deck can't afford waiting for a land, it has to win right away once it has played its disruption cards.

Putrefy probably IS superior to Seal. I was comparing it to Vindicate.

I do think you're missing that both green and white are very light splashes though.

You have exactly the same number of ways to get green in my list as you do in traditional Eva Green lists. Same with white. Just grab whichever color that you have a card of. With 4 green and 3/5 white cards in the whole deck, you typically won't have both in your opening hand. And even when you do, you can easily fetch whichever card seems more important, and then grab the other one a turn or two later when you usually topdeck another fetchland or something. With 8 fetches and 6 duals, you almost always will see either a fetch and a dual, or two fetches in your first 8-9 cards.

The reason I dislike doran, is that it turns these very light splashes of 3-5 cards into very heavy splashes of 7-9 cards of both. That requires swapping up the manabase. Why do that when Negator and Ashenmoor Gouger do nearly the same thing but on color. But as is, I know for a fact that the deck supports two very light splashes just fine.

As much as I love Vindicate and as much as it does win games, I am frustrated as heck by the white part of the cc. Maybe MWS is crazy whenever I have sided in Leyline of the Void I have ALWAYS had it in my opening hand, but I also don't always get to pull both colors. This deck really does kill most decks, I am astounded to be able to say that. However, you will drop a game here and there to randomly not getting what you need.

I think that reanimate and Tombstalker are the best cards in the deck (I know, not Tarmogoyf....gasp!). Everyone is ready with a bunch of ways to kill Mr. TGoyf, however, not everyone can deal with a 5/5 flyer with a CMC of 8. The only widely played single card that smokes him is StP. Almost every other deck needs 2 cards to kill him or stop him. I can't tell you how many times I have won with reanimate. Oh, eternal witness in opponents yard, I'll take that get back reanimate, and grab something else.

This deck is excellent but I am not sure if we should be using white. I want everyone to do an experiment and tell me how many times you die to color screw and how many times it is irrelevant. I have a sneaky suspicion that Vindicate does more than it hurts but I hate having a dead card in my hand.

No joke, In a competitive game I have never been holding a Vindicate and not been able to cast due to no white, you have 8 fetches, and 2 scrubs....youre gunna get white no matter what

Also I know it is blasphemy but I think im going to run Edict over Snuff out, it has been killing me too many times. Or figure out some way to split it

Also im considering cutting 1 thought seize, and 1 hypnotic for 2 Duress

I'm glad more and more of you guys are coming around to Reanimate and Vindicate. I'm surprised Clark's list went ignored for so long actually.

But while I absolutely think that if you have the cards, you should atleast try out the white splash...

If you don't have the cards or don't want to splash a second color...

Please try out this list.

4 tarmogoyf
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker
3 phyrexian negator/ashenmoor gouger/nantuko shade

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 putrefy
3 snuff out
2 reanimate

4 wasteland
4 bloodstained mire
4 polluted delta
3 bayou
5 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth

Putrefy is indeed a solid card. It gives you 3 more creature removal spells, while dealing with 80% of the cards that Seal of Primordium was useful against, and also works great with Reanimate which as others who tried out the card agree, is an absolute house.

hey suckerpunch, i maybe dont like the white splash, think its just me because i think its too disruptable. but i like the above list you posted. i'm testing it now and i totally wreck aggroloam with the removal and reanimate is tech against loam because they loam everything in their grave. the original eva green build is good against loam too but i think this build makes this mu better.

i still dont say i like it better than the original list but in a loam meta(in belgium they play loam very much, so maybe i'm gonna play this deck when i go there to a tourney or something) i would play this one over the original i think. :cool:


greet, electrolyze

Lotus Petal obviously provides one less mana than Dark Rit, but it does allow you to play Doran/Vindicate if you really want. It also pumps Tarmogoyf more effectively, I think. That being said, I have no idea if that's better than staying B/g or not, but it does solve the Ritual-sucking in the 3c version problem. And it still lets you go turn 1 Hymn/Sinkhole.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Lotus Petal obviously provides one less mana than Dark Rit, but it does allow you to play Doran/Vindicate if you really want. It also pumps Tarmogoyf more effectively, I think. That being said, I have no idea if that's better than staying B/g or not, but it does solve the Ritual-sucking in the 3c version problem. And it still lets you go turn 1 Hymn/Sinkhole.

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Wow...that might be the ticket to me bitching about color screw. I will gladly have more sources of disposable colored mana to have 1 less black!

EDIT: I've tried and I am not super happy with it. Auf wiedersehen Doran!

Hey, it's been a while since I read the thread, I'm glad to see the deck is still under discusion.

My input on the subject from the last couple of pages is:

- Splashing a third colour really suck. I've tested it and also played a lot of deadguy/funkbrew. Nitewolfe's original build or monoblack suicide is far better, at least when you want to play the tempo-sui version (no confidant).

- I have never played reanimte, but I like the idea. It's a must try in the next couple of weeks I think, but since I am really happy with the deck I play right now, so I don't know how to fit it.

- Putrey rocks! I love having extra removal when I need it, and also beeing able to blow artifacts. However, the statement that 80% (don't rememer who said that) of what you hit with seal is artifacts is not entirely true. The important stuff that putrefy does not hit includes standstill, seismic assault, counterbalance and blood moon (however, 1st turn blood moon suck even if you play seal, if you start with only fetches on hand). Either way, in my opinion the effect of having extra removal that does not kill you is have shown really good, and we can still hit vial, jitte, stax-artifacts etc.

- Bitterblossom in this deck sounds really stupid.

In conclusion, the deck I play right now is Nitewolfe's original build, but with 3 putrefy instead of seal. Also, I play pernicious deed in the board instead of plague, we don't have a lot of goblins around here (sweden). Instead, there's a LOT of 3hold, dreadstill and death and taxes, in which deed shines. I still love this deck and have a fair amount of succes with it.

Oh, I also have to mention that I like the idea of phyrexian negator in the deck. He is such a mean bastard! I have tried that too, but when I did, I got owned by the read 3holds that are everywhere nowadays (especially canadian build) so the direct damage from red is not quite as "gone" from the meta as one would like to think. How has negator worked out for you?

I'm happy you guys like my idea of playing Putrefy instead of Seal and keep playing only 2 colors.
Because it's true you (almost) always have acces to the color you need but you often can't have access to both green and white.
Let's say you have to deal with a threat, you fetch for a Scrub and play Vindicate on an opponent's Stalker/Tarmo/Crusher/etc. and then you have to finish your opponent with your own Tarmo but you can't because you didn't fetch for a Bayou. This gives time to your opponent to recover and that's really really bad for you because you're playing the tempo with this deck.

Anyway, here's my decklist:

4 tarmogoyf
4 hypnotic specter
4 tombstalker
4 Nantuko Shade

4 dark ritual
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
3 putrefy
3 snuff out

4 wasteland
4 bloodstained mire
4 polluted delta
4 bayou
6 swamp


What's different?
I added a land because I had to mulligan to often, because of starting hands that have only 1 Swamp/fetch/Bayou and one to multiple Wastelands.
I replaced the 3 Seals with 3 Putrefy and cut 1 Snuff out, because with Putrefy you already have 3 more creature removals (Putrefy>Snuff out BTW).

The only thing I'm not happy with the deck is Nantuko Shade, but I couldn't think of a better creature (and Phyrexian Negator is way too dangerous with all the burn spells and goblins out there).

Nantuko is not bad in itself, it's just bad as a 4-of imo. You could cut 2 (and maybe 1 tombstalker) of them for 2 or 3 unearth.