All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

You never stop claiming nonsense, do you? If you look at MTG Top 8 you'll might notice that the format is more than 50% blue since 2011

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Oh, whatever. Are you going to argue against the point of his position or just take potshots at his figures from under your bridge?

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Originally Posted by twndmn

The blue vs non-blue classification is just pointless. The Blue aspect in Miracles is miles apart from the Blue aspect in Storm, even though both decks run Brainstorm.

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Yeah, I keep reading opinions from folks who would like very much for this to be true...

"While Brainstorm and Ponder are cantrips that are used to get the right card at the right time in both Miracles and Storm, the cards actually perform different functions in one deck versus the other because ____________."

I would honestly be very interested to see any defensible argument that go in the blank.

When is the next announcement?

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

Jund isn't what they need to fix. Junk, Boros and Bw Suicide are what they need to fix. Jund would slot in just fine in a meta where more than half the lists had the same basic consistency issues it has. It slotted in just fine as recently as a year ago when half the lists weren't blue. It's in a 70% blue meta that Jund becomes a shotgun in an Uzi and rifle fight.

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Why do those decks need to be fixed? What makes them more "legit" than Elves, DnT, Delver, Miracles, etc.

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Originally Posted by clavio

When is the next announcement?

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Jan 19, Moday 12:00a PST

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

Why do those decks need to be fixed? What makes them more "legit" than Elves, DnT, Delver, Miracles, etc.

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It's like eating chicken every day. Chicken tastes great and it's fun. You can do lots of neat stuff with chicken like marinating, frying, put a rub on it etc.

But after 4 years of eating chicken for 60-70% of your meals, it gets old no matter what new seasoning you add to it.

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Originally Posted by Finn

Oh, whatever. Are you going to argue against the point of his position or just take potshots at his figures from under your bridge?
Yeah, I keep reading opinions from folks who would like very much for this to be true...

"While Brainstorm and Ponder are cantrips that are used to get the right card at the right time in both Miracles and Storm, the cards actually perform different functions in one deck versus the other because ____________."

I would honestly be very interested to see any defensible argument that go in the blank.

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The blue aspect of a deck is NOT how a couple cards are used, but how the whole suite of blue cards in the deck are used.

The blue in Miracles is mostly counters with card draw/selection secondary, but the defining part is the counter magic cards.
In storm thew blue is 100% card draw/selection with some peeking at your opponents hand added in.

You have to look at the whole deck, not just 1-2 cards like most of the anti-BS crowd keeps doing.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

It's easy to tell that Red was color #2 and Black the bottom of the colorwheel

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Was hoping for actual numbers. I'd count it myself, but I don't know what Sultai, Temur, etc mean - nor do I care to. Oh well then.

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Originally Posted by Teluin

Was hoping for actual numbers. I'd count it myself, but I don't know what Sultai, Temur, etc mean - nor do I care to. Oh well then.

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http://omggames.ca/wp-content/upload...rkir-clans.png

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Originally Posted by sjmcc13

You have to look at the whole deck, not just 1-2 cards like most of the anti-BS crowd keeps doing.

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Many years ago we didn't have a problem because those 2 cards were Brainstorm and Force of Will. We didn't have Ponder, Preordain, Treasure Cruise. Blue decks of today play 4-5 of these cards. Strategies between these decks are different we all know that but those cantrips are plenty of reasons that make blue a consistently performing shell.

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Originally Posted by sjmcc13

The blue aspect of a deck is NOT how a couple cards are used, but how the whole suite of blue cards in the deck are used.

The blue in Miracles is mostly counters with card draw/selection secondary, but the defining part is the counter magic cards.
In storm thew blue is 100% card draw/selection with some peeking at your opponents hand added in.

You have to look at the whole deck, not just 1-2 cards like most of the anti-BS crowd keeps doing.

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No I don't. I have only discussed the issues with cantrips. All that other crap is just clouding the conversation like most of the pro-BS crowd keeps doing.

You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes, you just have to play legacy and build your own decks instead of netdeck/play the current flavor of the month in order to understand the situation we're in right now.

I was thinking, maybe the blue shell needs to be attacked from a different way: ban Delver and TNN. Take away the win-conditions that blue should not have at its disposal. The beautifull thing about this ban would be that it also nerfs Miracles because certain agro decks would become a lot better that naturaly prey on Miracles (like Goblins f.e.).

For me, Legacy got realy stale with the introduction of TNN. That was the final nail in the coffin for many rogue decks that were viable but are now completly abbandoned because blue good-stuff is simply too good to ignore (f.e. Jim Davis and Max Tietze giving up on Goblins, Jeff Hoogland giving up on Loam, etc.). Mind that I don't mean a deck like Goblins was tier 1 before TNN, it was not played enough to be tier 1. But a deck like Goblins did give you a shot at winning a tournament. It was a very viable rogue deck. These kinds of rogue decks have all been killed by the blue shell decks that got way too many goodies they should never have gotten (be it creatures or Ancestral Recalls)

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Originally Posted by Nielsie

I was thinking, maybe the blue shell needs to be attacked from a different way: ban Delver and TNN. Take away the win-conditions that blue should not have at its disposal. The beautifull thing about this ban would be that it also nerfs Miracles because certain agro decks would become a lot better that naturaly prey on Miracles (like Goblins f.e.).

For me, Legacy got realy stale with the introduction of TNN. That was the final nail in the coffin for many rogue decks that were viable but are now completly abbandoned because blue good-stuff is simply too good to ignore (f.e. Jim Davis and Max Tietze giving up on Goblins, Jeff Hoogland giving up on Loam, etc.). Mind that I don't mean a deck like Goblins was tier 1 before TNN, it was not played enough to be tier 1. But a deck like Goblins did give you a shot at winning a tournament. It was a very viable rogue deck. These kinds of rogue decks have all been killed by the blue shell decks that got way too many goodies they should never have gotten (be it creatures or Ancestral Recalls)

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If you wanted to nerf the blue shell by banning the power that it abuses you'd have about a half dozen cards clearly on the list. It's better to nerf the shell itself. Otherwise you wind up with a bunch of completely pithed archetypes that cannot be rebuilt at a lower power level.

Banning Delver of Secrets and True-Name Nemesis may be good generally speaking but Lion's Eye Diamond, Show and Tell, Jace the Mind Sculptor and Treasure Cruise all warp the meta in ways that it would not otherwise flow if they weren't so powerful in the blue shell. Two lists, Miracles and UWR Stoneblade wouldn't be touched at all in a Delver/TNN ban and they're both tier 1 as it is. They'd just become tier 0.5 at that point.

It's better to manage the shell and let the flavor of the meta remain at a lower power level so other ideas can return or be born. Right now the blue shell dominates so heavily that it's hard for anything to enter that is not blue shell or anti-blue shell in nature.

Terminus already got those decks extinct before TNN came.

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Originally Posted by death

Terminus already got those decks extinct before TNN came.

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In the absence of Brainstorm Terminus would be much less oppressive against creature aggro. In the absence of Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top it would be almost a non-factor in Legacy.

In the absence of Brainstorm Terminus would be much less oppressive against creature aggro. In the absence of Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top it would be

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almost a non-factor in Legacy.

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Because there are no other ways to stack the libary constantly and float this spell on top of it.

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Originally Posted by death

Terminus already got those decks extinct before TNN came.

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And before that it was SFM + Batterskull ... and before that it was Survival+ Vengevine...

Jesus Christ, people should stop acting like Goblins, Zoo and shit were top decks just recently and blame the CURRENT printings. This isn't getting us anywhere ... sorry ... forgot in which thread I am

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

In the absence of Brainstorm Terminus would be much less oppressive against creature aggro. In the absence of Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top it would be almost a non-factor in Legacy.

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Terminus would be so "less oppressive" that people would simply switch them for SFM + TNN ... as mentioned 5 times in 3 weeks

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Originally Posted by Teveshszat

In the absence of Brainstorm Terminus would be much less oppressive against creature aggro. In the absence of Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top it would be

Because there are no other ways to stack the libary constantly and float this spell on top of it.

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There are lots of ways to do that but good luck relying on them for an early sweep. Right now Miracles relies on Brainstorm to get Terminus on top and on SDT to float it. You remove Brainstorm from the mix and half the chance of an early sweep goes away, since the 7 cards the Miracles player opened were the best chance to see Terminus by turn 2 or 3. SDT then finds the normal turn 3 to 5 draws early.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Terminus would be so "less oppressive" that people would simply switch them for SFM + TNN ... as mentioned 5 times in 3 weeks

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SFM + TNN are much more easily handled by a creature aggro list than Terminus is. By an order of magnitude in fact. There is nothing on God's green earth that a creature aggro list can do to avoid getting swept by Terminus early on. There are many things that same list can do to remove an SFM before it produces Batterskull in play or to remove Batterskull after the fact. There are many things that list can do to get rid of a single blocker with protection from it.

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Originally Posted by death

...you just have to play legacy and build your own decks...

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Bingo! Shit, why I never thought about something that clear?!
Now would you help me a bit with my new deck and fill the empty slots? So far I'm at:

4 blue feces
4 other blue feces
4 blue duals
4 other blue duals
4 BS card
4 Ponder card
4 TC card
4 FoW card

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Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

SFM + TNN are much more easily handled by a creature aggro list than Terminus is.

There is nothing on God's green earth that a creature aggro list can do to avoid getting swept by Terminus early on.

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Because these aggro decks of yore don't pack counterspells. That is why aggro decks of today are blue-based: Delvecestral Recall + blue cantrip cartel + counterspell.

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Originally Posted by Nielsie

I was thinking, maybe the blue shell needs to be attacked from a different way: ban Delver and TNN. Take away the win-conditions that blue should not have at its disposal. The beautifull thing about this ban would be that it also nerfs Miracles because certain agro decks would become a lot better that naturaly prey on Miracles (like Goblins f.e.)...

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The thing is that, despite being turds from a design perspective, those cards aren't really problems in terms of power level. If delver were black, and TNN were white...

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Originally Posted by Finn

"While Brainstorm and Ponder are cantrips that are used to get the right card at the right time in both Miracles and Storm, the cards actually perform different functions in one deck versus the other because ____________."

I would honestly be very interested to see any defensible argument that go in the blank.

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No one is arguing they serve different roles in different decks. They're saying the decks are so strategically different as a whole that the fact they both run those cards is irrelevant.

Basically some people value strategic diversity over color diversity. That's really what this entire argument boils down to.

Basically one card is so obviously more powerful than other powerful cards that do similar things that it's played at double the rate of the other powerful cards but people still stick their heads in the sand. We get straw man arguments like "pillar of the format", "format defining", incoherent inane comparisons to vintage, ban island next, skill intensive, "ponder would replace it", "preordain would replace it", "delver is the problem". It's an overwhelmingly better card than the next best card, it's usage is 70-80%, players are incentivised to play it in long events because it's so broken. It should be banned given what it present on the banned list currently. Period. If WotC wants to baby step their way there by unbanning cards that won't dent brainstorms dominance like Earthcraft, Black Vise, Mind Twist and Dragon as an intermediate step I suppose that's something. But come June if all those cards were unbanned you'd still see brainstorm at 80%, and being a must play 4 of in the most dominant combo, aggro, control strategies. Survival might dent it's dominance but you'd probably get 1/2 the SotF decks playing Brainstorm as well since it's a fucking shuffle effect itself and it's fucking stone useless in multiples (oh look I'll just draw 3 and put the extras back and then activate SotF to make it a PERFECT BRAINSTORM).

This is currently what defines the format:

1. blue cantrip decks: aggro, combo, control
2. non-blue combo: elves, dredge, dark depths
3. blue_hate.dec: death & taxes, prison and pox

The large majority fall into the main stream #1 category, to the point where you can even call #2 and #3 as outliers. In simple terms, your brew has to be streamlined to defeat blue decks.

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Survival might dent it's dominance but you'd probably get 1/2 the SotF decks playing Brainstorm as well since it's a fucking shuffle effect itself and it's fucking stone useless in multiples (oh look I'll just draw 3 and put the extras back and then activate SotF to make it a PERFECT BRAINSTORM).

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It doesn't matter if you have 3 or 4 Survival as long you have a creature + green source. You don't actually need to Brainstorm, you just win.

I agree. But rather than saying a deck has to be streamlined to defeat the blue decks i'd just say, the non cantrip shell decks are just bound to get terrible hands over 8-15 round events. At this point with the critical mass of blue hand fixers I'm not certain banning brainstorm would dent blue too much. It would hurt specific mechanics (Miracle obviously), and 2 card combo (which is simply the act of a simian assembling herp and derp, and thus doesn't want 2 derps or 2 herps) more since the other cantrips don't flush your hand. Maybe storm combo next, which can use it as a tool to fight targeted discard. I think "tempo" blue decks would miss it the least. They are mostly using the cartel to cheat their land base and play like 6-7 color producing lands.

The exception maybe being elves because it's running 2 draw engines, is mostly redundant 4 of's and has access to 4 Tinkers.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

...At this point with the critical mass of blue hand fixers I'm not certain banning brainstorm would dent blue too much. ...

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Because you get to swap out three cards (including the brainstorm itself) rather than just captripping, and because it's instant speed brainstorm is hugely more potent than the other blue hand fixers. Are there any other 1 cc instant speed hand fixers, or 1cc ones that trade out more than themselves?

Edit: Treasure Cruise is probably as big a problem as Brainstorm.

If DCI is going to hit Brainstorm then there's no other perfect time than this weekend. Either BS or Ponder + Treasure Cruise to even make an impact.

Unban something outside of Earthcraft, Mind Twist and Black Vise. These are easily splashable. Woldgorger Dragon won't make any sense.

Actually if blue gets nerfed, then Earthcraft does makes sense. Survival and Hermit Druid don't require blue so these decks will dilute the format.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Basically one card is so obviously more powerful than other powerful cards that do similar things that it's played at double the rate of the other powerful cards but people still stick their heads in the sand. We get straw man arguments like "pillar of the format", "format defining", incoherent inane comparisons to vintage, ban island next, skill intensive, "ponder would replace it", "preordain would replace it", "delver is the problem". It's an overwhelmingly better card than the next best card, it's usage is 70-80%, players are incentivised to play it in long events because it's so broken. It should be banned given what it present on the banned list currently. Period. If WotC wants to baby step their way there by unbanning cards that won't dent brainstorms dominance like Earthcraft, Black Vise, Mind Twist and Dragon as an intermediate step I suppose that's something. But come June if all those cards were unbanned you'd still see brainstorm at 80%, and being a must play 4 of in the most dominant combo, aggro, control strategies. Survival might dent it's dominance but you'd probably get 1/2 the SotF decks playing Brainstorm as well since it's a fucking shuffle effect itself and it's fucking stone useless in multiples (oh look I'll just draw 3 and put the extras back and then activate SotF to make it a PERFECT BRAINSTORM).

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I think you're overstating the strength of Brainstorm relative to Ponder and Preordain, but my bigger objection to your posts here is that you just write off arguments against your position rather than engaging them. We're arguing over how the format ought to be, but the only thing I can take away from any of your posts is that you want Brainstorm gone. Yes, it's widely played. Yes, it dramatically increases your chances of doing well in an large event. But because the only decks its actually driving out on its own are those that are hamstrung by inconsistency I don't see this as a problem.

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Originally Posted by btm10

...But because the only decks its actually driving out on its own are those that are hamstrung by inconsistency I don't see this as a problem.

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The question is whether decks with brainstorm are too consistent, or those without it are too inconsistent. If Demonic Tutor were available, we could just as well say that decks without it are 'hamstrung by inconsistency'.

Sure. We can all just play it and make it (as if it already isn't) a 56 card format. Then we will have peace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW1h4iKeMZ0

Thanks for typing for me. Let's unban Demonic Consultation then we'll have consistency. The other decks don't lose to inconsistency in a vacuum; they just are so outclassed by a draw 3 for U you're a fool for smashing your head into the wall and thinking otherwise.

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Then we will have peace.

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I like this kind of peace. Its better than having people trying to force other people to see that what they believe is right
and that consitency is a thing you should not have in a card game.

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Rufus
The question is whether decks with brainstorm are too consistent, or those without it are too inconsistent. If Demonic Tutor were available, we could just as well say that decks without it are 'hamstrung by inconsistency'.

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No deck is to consistent. In fact consistency is something you want if you want to play a big tournement so decrease it would be very awfull because it increases variation of the draw or so called luck which is never a good idea because it will kill you. Yes some may argue that losing because they get screwed or flooded again or not finding the answer intime is what they want but I don´t want this.
I want to make sure luck is low as possible involved when playing at a tournement and skill is what counts for a win. Brainstorm helps because its increases consistency. Also yes you can also can assume I would prefer Dämonic Tutor to be unbanned.

Since we're just a few days out, I am going to make some BOLD predictions:

1. Nothing will be Banned.
2. Nothing will be Unbanned.
3. 90% of the people on this thread will continue to rage and trot out stale, tired arguments that didn't have any basis in reality for the last 2 years they were using them.

Radical, I tell you.:cool:

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Originally Posted by Teveshszat

No deck is to consistent. In fact consistency is something you want if you want to play a big tournement so decrease it would be very awfull because it increases variation of the draw or so called luck which is never a good idea because it will kill you. Yes some may argue that losing because they get screwed or flooded again or not finding the answer intime is what they want but I don´t want this.
I want to make sure luck is low as possible involved when playing at a tournement and skill is what counts for a win. Brainstorm helps because its increases consistency. Also yes you can also can assume I would prefer Dämonic Tutor to be unbanned.

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Lets play the good old consistent decks with 20 Lotus, 20 Wheel, 20 Bolt.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Lets play the good old consistent decks with 20 Lotus, 20 Wheel, 20 Bolt.

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It would be better if you added fetchlands and brainstorm

TC is idiotic, but please gimme "no changes" just to have a good laugh here :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Bingo! Shit, why I never thought about something that clear?!
Now would you help me a bit with my new deck and fill the empty slots? So far I'm at:

4 blue feces
4 other blue feces
4 blue duals
4 other blue duals
4 BS card
4 Ponder card
4 TC card
4 FoW card

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that's 28 left for your creativity, more than enough...

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Originally Posted by Teveshszat

I like this kind of peace. Its better than having people trying to force other people to see that what they believe is right
and that consitency is a thing you should not have in a card game.

I want to make sure luck is low as possible involved when playing at a tournement and skill is what counts for a win. Brainstorm helps because its increases consistency. Also yes you can also can assume I would prefer Dämonic Tutor to be unbanned.

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Go play Chess. Magic is a card game. There's a random element.

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Originally Posted by Teveshszat

I like this kind of peace. Its better than having people trying to force other people to see that what they believe is right and that consitency is a thing you should not have in a card game.

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Consistency is a good, necessary thing. Its a bad thing though to have it monopolized by one color.

Or as this person perfectly sketches the difference between blue and non-blue (couldn't have phrased it better myself):

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Originally Posted by force_of_phil

The blue shell finds, protects, and answers individually powerful cards better than any other approach, making it the default home for "pushed" cards. Non-blue eternal decks are almost exclusively based on incidental synergies, rather than the "find individually powerful card, protect individually powerful card/answer opponent's individually powerful card, repeat until win" macro-strategy that defines the (blue) bulk of the format.

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If Brainstorm+Fetch+in some cases Ponder gave so much consistency that other decks could not compete, then we would have been seeing these levels of blue since Lorwyn or Zendikar at the very latest. The fact that we didn't shows that this consistency isn't inherently too good. Brainstorm's ability to reduce variance hasn't increased over the last few years. What HAS changed the format are stupid printings like Delver, True-Name, and Griselbrand. Pointing at "quantity played->Brainstorm too good" is extraordinarily simplistic.

It isn't "Brainstorm too good -> lots of blue."
The reality is "Lots of blue -> many Brainstorms."

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Originally Posted by Ellomdian

Since we're just a few days out, I am going to make some BOLD predictions:

1. Nothing will be Banned.
2. Nothing will be Unbanned.
3. 90% of the people on this thread will continue to rage and trot out stale, tired arguments that didn't have any basis in reality for the last 2 years they were using them.

Radical, I tell you.:cool:

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And the sky is blue, just like the format. That prediction isn't that hard, considering Wizards gives two shits about the format.

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Originally Posted by The Doctor

If Brainstorm+Fetch+in some cases Ponder gave so much consistency that other decks could not compete, then we would have been seeing these levels of blue since Lorwyn or Zendikar at the very latest. The fact that we didn't shows that this consistency isn't inherently too good. Brainstorm's ability to reduce variance hasn't increased over the last few years. What HAS changed the format are stupid printings like Delver, True-Name, and Griselbrand. Pointing at "quantity played->Brainstorm too good" is extraordinarily simplistic.

It isn't "Brainstorm too good -> lots of blue."
The reality is "Lots of blue -> many Brainstorms."

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What exactly could they print to make Brainstorm decrease variance even more? :really: More shuffling effects? It's already at its maximum effiency and nothing gets even close aside from Elves which has to use various engines to compete.

People also may have underestimated in the past how good the shell is compared to everything else (a long time ago, there were people who ran less than 4 Brainstorms in some lists). Add blue-related printings that get powered up by Brainstorm and you get the blue clusterfuck we currently have.

It's also rather simplistic to say "Brainstorm's consistency is the same, so its powerlevel is also the same" since Brainstorm isn't in a vacuum. Its power depends on the cards it can fetch, and power level has increased alot in recent years, Gatecrash-Journey into Dicks era aside. The cards it can fetch on average have become alot more powerful. For the same reasons Brainstorm and Ponder were restricted in Vintage years ago, simply because the cards they could dig for were too powerful.

You're talking about nothing.
https://twitter.com/TrickMTG/status/...217984?lang=it

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Originally Posted by Barook

Wizards gives two shits about the format.

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It is in their interest make healthy the format, because it is still very popular and is played on Magic Online.