All B/R update speculation.

[Finn]

You never stop claiming nonsense, do you? If you look at MTG Top 8 you'll might notice that the format is more than 50% blue since 2011

Oh, whatever. Are you going to argue against the point of his position or just take potshots at his figures from under your bridge?

The blue vs non-blue classification is just pointless. The Blue aspect in Miracles is miles apart from the Blue aspect in Storm, even though both decks run Brainstorm.

Yeah, I keep reading opinions from folks who would like very much for this to be true...

"While Brainstorm and Ponder are cantrips that are used to get the right card at the right time in both Miracles and Storm, the cards actually perform different functions in one deck versus the other because ____________."

I would honestly be very interested to see any defensible argument that go in the blank.

[clavio]

When is the next announcement?

[AznSeal]

Jund isn't what they need to fix. Junk, Boros and Bw Suicide are what they need to fix. Jund would slot in just fine in a meta where more than half the lists had the same basic consistency issues it has. It slotted in just fine as recently as a year ago when half the lists weren't blue. It's in a 70% blue meta that Jund becomes a shotgun in an Uzi and rifle fight.

Why do those decks need to be fixed? What makes them more "legit" than Elves, DnT, Delver, Miracles, etc.

[death]

When is the next announcement?

Jan 19, Moday 12:00a PST

[testing32]

Why do those decks need to be fixed? What makes them more "legit" than Elves, DnT, Delver, Miracles, etc.

It's like eating chicken every day. Chicken tastes great and it's fun. You can do lots of neat stuff with chicken like marinating, frying, put a rub on it etc.

But after 4 years of eating chicken for 60-70% of your meals, it gets old no matter what new seasoning you add to it.

[sjmcc13]

Oh, whatever. Are you going to argue against the point of his position or just take potshots at his figures from under your bridge?
Yeah, I keep reading opinions from folks who would like very much for this to be true...

"While Brainstorm and Ponder are cantrips that are used to get the right card at the right time in both Miracles and Storm, the cards actually perform different functions in one deck versus the other because ____________."

I would honestly be very interested to see any defensible argument that go in the blank.

The blue aspect of a deck is NOT how a couple cards are used, but how the whole suite of blue cards in the deck are used.

The blue in Miracles is mostly counters with card draw/selection secondary, but the defining part is the counter magic cards.
In storm thew blue is 100% card draw/selection with some peeking at your opponents hand added in.

You have to look at the whole deck, not just 1-2 cards like most of the anti-BS crowd keeps doing.

[Teluin]

It's easy to tell that Red was color #2 and Black the bottom of the colorwheel

Was hoping for actual numbers. I'd count it myself, but I don't know what Sultai, Temur, etc mean - nor do I care to. Oh well then.

[death]

Was hoping for actual numbers. I'd count it myself, but I don't know what Sultai, Temur, etc mean - nor do I care to. Oh well then.

You have to look at the whole deck, not just 1-2 cards like most of the anti-BS crowd keeps doing.

Many years ago we didn't have a problem because those 2 cards were Brainstorm and Force of Will. We didn't have Ponder, Preordain, Treasure Cruise. Blue decks of today play 4-5 of these cards. Strategies between these decks are different we all know that but those cantrips are plenty of reasons that make blue a consistently performing shell.

[Finn]

The blue aspect of a deck is NOT how a couple cards are used, but how the whole suite of blue cards in the deck are used.

The blue in Miracles is mostly counters with card draw/selection secondary, but the defining part is the counter magic cards.
In storm thew blue is 100% card draw/selection with some peeking at your opponents hand added in.

You have to look at the whole deck, not just 1-2 cards like most of the anti-BS crowd keeps doing.

No I don't. I have only discussed the issues with cantrips. All that other crap is just clouding the conversation like most of the pro-BS crowd keeps doing.

[death]

You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes, you just have to play legacy and build your own decks instead of netdeck/play the current flavor of the month in order to understand the situation we're in right now.

[Nielsie]

I was thinking, maybe the blue shell needs to be attacked from a different way: ban Delver and TNN. Take away the win-conditions that blue should not have at its disposal. The beautifull thing about this ban would be that it also nerfs Miracles because certain agro decks would become a lot better that naturaly prey on Miracles (like Goblins f.e.).

For me, Legacy got realy stale with the introduction of TNN. That was the final nail in the coffin for many rogue decks that were viable but are now completly abbandoned because blue good-stuff is simply too good to ignore (f.e. Jim Davis and Max Tietze giving up on Goblins, Jeff Hoogland giving up on Loam, etc.). Mind that I don't mean a deck like Goblins was tier 1 before TNN, it was not played enough to be tier 1. But a deck like Goblins did give you a shot at winning a tournament. It was a very viable rogue deck. These kinds of rogue decks have all been killed by the blue shell decks that got way too many goodies they should never have gotten (be it creatures or Ancestral Recalls)

[FoolofaTook]

I was thinking, maybe the blue shell needs to be attacked from a different way: ban Delver and TNN. Take away the win-conditions that blue should not have at its disposal. The beautifull thing about this ban would be that it also nerfs Miracles because certain agro decks would become a lot better that naturaly prey on Miracles (like Goblins f.e.).

For me, Legacy got realy stale with the introduction of TNN. That was the final nail in the coffin for many rogue decks that were viable but are now completly abbandoned because blue good-stuff is simply too good to ignore (f.e. Jim Davis and Max Tietze giving up on Goblins, Jeff Hoogland giving up on Loam, etc.). Mind that I don't mean a deck like Goblins was tier 1 before TNN, it was not played enough to be tier 1. But a deck like Goblins did give you a shot at winning a tournament. It was a very viable rogue deck. These kinds of rogue decks have all been killed by the blue shell decks that got way too many goodies they should never have gotten (be it creatures or Ancestral Recalls)

If you wanted to nerf the blue shell by banning the power that it abuses you'd have about a half dozen cards clearly on the list. It's better to nerf the shell itself. Otherwise you wind up with a bunch of completely pithed archetypes that cannot be rebuilt at a lower power level.

Banning Delver of Secrets and True-Name Nemesis may be good generally speaking but Lion's Eye Diamond, Show and Tell, Jace the Mind Sculptor and Treasure Cruise all warp the meta in ways that it would not otherwise flow if they weren't so powerful in the blue shell. Two lists, Miracles and UWR Stoneblade wouldn't be touched at all in a Delver/TNN ban and they're both tier 1 as it is. They'd just become tier 0.5 at that point.

It's better to manage the shell and let the flavor of the meta remain at a lower power level so other ideas can return or be born. Right now the blue shell dominates so heavily that it's hard for anything to enter that is not blue shell or anti-blue shell in nature.

[death]

Terminus already got those decks extinct before TNN came.

[FoolofaTook]

Terminus already got those decks extinct before TNN came.

In the absence of Brainstorm Terminus would be much less oppressive against creature aggro. In the absence of Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top it would be almost a non-factor in Legacy.

[Teveshszat]

In the absence of Brainstorm Terminus would be much less oppressive against creature aggro. In the absence of Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top it would be

almost a non-factor in Legacy.

Because there are no other ways to stack the libary constantly and float this spell on top of it.

[Lemnear]

Terminus already got those decks extinct before TNN came.

And before that it was SFM + Batterskull ... and before that it was Survival+ Vengevine...

Jesus Christ, people should stop acting like Goblins, Zoo and shit were top decks just recently and blame the CURRENT printings. This isn't getting us anywhere ... sorry ... forgot in which thread I am

In the absence of Brainstorm Terminus would be much less oppressive against creature aggro. In the absence of Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top it would be almost a non-factor in Legacy.

Terminus would be so "less oppressive" that people would simply switch them for SFM + TNN ... as mentioned 5 times in 3 weeks

[FoolofaTook]

In the absence of Brainstorm Terminus would be much less oppressive against creature aggro. In the absence of Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top it would be

Because there are no other ways to stack the libary constantly and float this spell on top of it.

There are lots of ways to do that but good luck relying on them for an early sweep. Right now Miracles relies on Brainstorm to get Terminus on top and on SDT to float it. You remove Brainstorm from the mix and half the chance of an early sweep goes away, since the 7 cards the Miracles player opened were the best chance to see Terminus by turn 2 or 3. SDT then finds the normal turn 3 to 5 draws early.

[FoolofaTook]

Terminus would be so "less oppressive" that people would simply switch them for SFM + TNN ... as mentioned 5 times in 3 weeks

SFM + TNN are much more easily handled by a creature aggro list than Terminus is. By an order of magnitude in fact. There is nothing on God's green earth that a creature aggro list can do to avoid getting swept by Terminus early on. There are many things that same list can do to remove an SFM before it produces Batterskull in play or to remove Batterskull after the fact. There are many things that list can do to get rid of a single blocker with protection from it.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

...you just have to play legacy and build your own decks...

Bingo! Shit, why I never thought about something that clear?!
Now would you help me a bit with my new deck and fill the empty slots? So far I'm at:

4 blue feces
4 other blue feces
4 blue duals
4 other blue duals
4 BS card
4 Ponder card
4 TC card
4 FoW card

[death]

SFM + TNN are much more easily handled by a creature aggro list than Terminus is.

There is nothing on God's green earth that a creature aggro list can do to avoid getting swept by Terminus early on.

Because these aggro decks of yore don't pack counterspells. That is why aggro decks of today are blue-based: Delvecestral Recall + blue cantrip cartel + counterspell.