Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Aside from not having the vulnerability to creature removal, I'm not sure why you'd limit yourself to one creature type just for mana acceleration. Of course, I'm sure there's ways to build some strong tribal decks, so in that case it Urza's Incubator does look awesome. I started a Myr deck already several pages back... might not be the direction you want to go in, but it might help give you some sort of starting point.
Unless your building around tribal synergies, Metalworker/Master Transmuter/Goblin Welder/Kuldotha Forgemaster are straight up more powerful than reducing the cc costs by 2.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Right now, the relevant constructs are:
Adaptive Automaton
Metalworker
Myr Battlesphere
Silent Arbiter
Steel Overseer
Su-Chi
Triskelion
Golems:
Solemn Simulacrum
Lodestone Golem
Precursor Golem
Arcbound Reclaimer
Bosh, Iron Golem
Karn, Silver Golem
Darksteel Sentinel
Platinum Emporium
Walking Archive
Golem Artisan
Artificers
All splicers
Arcum Dagsson
Faerie Mechanist
Riddlesmith
Stoneforge Mystic
Master Transmuter
Goblin Welder
The constructs have the best synergy at the moment.
Adaptive Automaton -> Pumps everything, or pumps Myrs
Metalworker -> Metalworker + Incubator is good ramp
Myr Battlesphere -> You only have to attack with Myr Battlesphere and leave the Myrs at home. Combos with Silent Arbiter.
Silent Arbiter -> Your Ensnaring Bridge that combos with Myr Battlesphere
Steel Overseer -> Pumps up everything, including Battlesphere Myrs and Trike counters
Su-Chi -> Doesn't really add much of anything, but its a construct nonetheless
Triskelion -> Shoots stuff, and gets new counters from Steel Overseer
+Phyrexian Metamorph / Sculpting Steel to copy stuff
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
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The constructs have the best synergy at the moment.
I think the Myr's have the best synergy (with the current card pool), but that's my opinion I suppose.
I hadn't considered Urza's Incubator though, which might prove to be a crazy awesome addition. My biggest beef is that it doesn't cast Myr Turbine, which is the best "Myr" that my Myr deck has access to (with the proper Myrs to support it, like Myr Battlesphere, of course). But reducing the manacost of all the actual Myr creatures by 2 is pretty insane... the 2cc mana dorks become friggin free for fucks sake lol. I suppose that in turn would make Myr Turbine easier to cast, so I'm definitely going to try it out when I get a chance.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
I think the Myr's have the best synergy (with the current card pool), but that's my opinion I suppose.
I hadn't considered Urza's Incubator though, which might prove to be a crazy awesome addition. My biggest beef is that it doesn't cast Myr Turbine, which is the best "Myr" that my Myr deck has access to (with the proper Myrs to support it, like Myr Battlesphere, of course). But reducing the manacost of all the actual Myr creatures by 2 is pretty insane... the 2cc mana dorks become friggin free for fucks sake lol. I suppose that in turn would make Myr Turbine easier to cast, so I'm definitely going to try it out when I get a chance.
I didn't bother writing out the Myrs because that would make it a really long post. For a myr deck, incubator should be great. For reference, I made a myr deck myself a long time ago ( http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/a...p/t-18783.html ) List is pretty crappy but there are some nice infinite mana combos in it.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
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Originally Posted by
monovfox
Is there a control version of the deck that runs trading post by chance? I really want to see if I can play a deck with trading post in it again D:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBSY0f7Yuj0
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
A lot of the builds Hanni has been posting have had me brainstorming stuff pretty hard. I'm going to try to grind out a blue stompy build that takes the utility and card draw to make it consistent, but stay true to the beat down plan. It loses out on Godo and Bonfire, but I think adding strong blue elements could help smooth the decks plays out a fair bit. Stay tuned.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
noobslayer
A lot of the builds Hanni has been posting have had me brainstorming stuff pretty hard. I'm going to try to grind out a blue stompy build that takes the utility and card draw to make it consistent, but stay true to the beat down plan. It loses out on Godo and Bonfire, but I think adding strong blue elements could help smooth the decks plays out a fair bit. Stay tuned.
Good, I'm glad I could help. Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
I have a 5/3 Blue Artifact Stompy thread that I started way before the SOM block, but from what I can remember from that thread, it ran both Master of Etherium and Umezawa's Jitte.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
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Originally Posted by
bruizar
i have been thinking about red/blue humans.. Gives some nice options. Hell; some of the best creatures in magic are human.
Add 4 cavern 4 city of brass.. And go rainbow. Lol.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
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Originally Posted by
kingofethanol
I've been thinking about this card. The card seems solid, but you need the deck to be as explosive as possible and make every play count. Paying :6: would mean mid to late game, and I would imagine the deck needing a much more substantial board impact than a card like this. Tapping for one damage almost does nothing (maybe kills Lingering Souls tokens and Thalia?) and is not the kind of impact you want at this point. If you want card draw and have access to blue try Thoughtcast. It acts as a Dark Ritual with Metalworker out, digs pretty well, and has instant value (as opposed to having untap two more times).
Regarding Lodestone Golem I think it's a fantastic card. It's removed quickly because it almost always needs to be answered. It annoys the crap out of blue players. It delays Jace a turn, which is a huge deal for this deck; makes in-response-Brainstorming much weaker; makes Snapcaster incredibly hard to work with; and Force of Will is no longer free, which they will play around and give you time. The 4-turn clock it provides can steal you games. Worst case scenario, they tapped out to Bolt him? Resolve a Wurmcoil next turn and win the game. Great against Show and Tell - it dampers the 12 or so cantrips and makes it so that they can't greedily tap out while casting them (they'll want Force up against you). Show and Tell is also delayed a turn, and the turn they tap out you can safely respond with Metamorph, Karn, Spine, or just lethal.
My two cents, Batterskull is insane in this deck. It's anti-removal, Terminus, Humility, and blocks Mongoose all day. Makes a late game Metalworker worth something for those debating between running three or four. Wonder if I have room for a full set...
Edit: Has anyone tried Heartless Summoning? Just a random idea. :6: to cast Sundering Titan seems hot. If you're luck enough you can totally be casting that turn 3.
This.
I'm going to shift my threat focus into 3 staff of nin, 4 wurmcoil, 2 batterskull, 2 karn, 2 hellkite and 2 metamorphs. (In addition to the usual 4 lodestones). I'm noticing that most decks have a very hard time to win against a resolved staff of nin. I would like fitting one more batterskull but it would have to take a wurmcoils place.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
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Originally Posted by
Ttvetjanu
This.
I'm going to shift my threat focus into 3 staff of nin, 4 wurmcoil, 2 batterskull, 2 karn, 2 hellkite and 2 metamorphs. (In addition to the usual 4 lodestones). I'm noticing that most decks have a very hard time to win against a resolved staff of nin. I would like fitting one more batterskull but it would have to take a wurmcoils place.
I built a MUD Stompy version a while ago, using Staff of Nin. L10 inspired me to try it with this post: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post667417
Here is what I had:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Voltaic Key
3 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Batterskull
2 Staff of Nin
1 Karn Liberated
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Buried Ruin
3 Mishra's Factory
SB: 3 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Cursed Totem
SB: 2 All Is Dust
SB: 1 Karn Liberated
SB: 2 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
While I love playing with other MUD variations (Kuldotha combo, Godo aggro...), I always found MUD Stompy to be the most consistent. Since we don't need colored mana source, we can use tons of awesome utility lands. Mishra's Factory is a land that also helps apply pressure (and which can become a 3/3 on offense or a 4/4 on defense thanks to Voltaic Key, which is great for combat tricks). Buried Ruin is a land that can recur a threat if our other threats are answered. Crucible Of Worlds is nice against U/W Miracles and other control archetypes, since it lets us recur Mishra's Factory / Buried Ruin / Wasteland :)
Staff Of Nin is great against Miracles, since they can't answer it once it hits the battlefield. And you can recur it with Buried Ruin if they counter it :)
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirTylerGalt
I personally run 4 cavern of souls as it is the nuts against most decks. I also run 2 ports, 4 wastelands, 3 buried ruins and the usual sol lands. I've also decided on not running revokers, not sure about it though. I think I would mostly name wasteland at top with it. Otherwise your list is very similar (I play a total of 4 karns with 2 on sideboard).
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ttvetjanu
I've also decided on not running revokers, not sure about it though. I think I would mostly name wasteland at top with it.
You canīt name wasteland with revoker. I wish I could:cry:
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
Oh gosh, there's tons of threads that have tried Artifact + Blue.
Off the top of my head: Deep Blue, 5/3, AfFOWnity, etc
If I remember correctly, the primary lacking from those shells have been: "what do I do when I don't have turn 1 Chalice @ 1?" and "How do I deal with permanents?"
Answer those two questions and the deck might be viable. I've had the best success with the :w: flavored version that ran SFM with Batterskull and Cranial. It might have been to do with the lifegain to offset the life-loss from Ancient Tomb and Phyrexian Metamorph.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirTylerGalt
Is the reason of you preferring Dynamo Thran over Grim Monolith because you proabbly plan on eventually playing a X=2 Chalice of Void?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
aluisiocsantos
Is the reason of you preferring Dynamo Thran over Grim Monolith because you proabbly plan on eventually playing a X=2 Chalice of Void?
He is playing 4 of each Grim Monolith and Thran Dynamo.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
OH dumb me lol :P Sorry about that, I didn't see it.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
anyone ever mess around with Conch Horn in list that use bonfire?
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dillonkbase
anyone ever mess around with Conch Horn in list that use bonfire?
I had to look it up since i didnt knew that card, but it seems ok. Especially the draw two part. I play 3 bonfire in my godo version- i also considered playing rolling earthquake but thats expensive as hell. This tech helps bonfire a lot while adding a extra deaw for cheap.
i like it. But for now i stick with my 60, unless u tested it with good results.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
This.
I'm going to shift my threat focus into 3 staff of nin, 4 wurmcoil, 2 batterskull, 2 karn, 2 hellkite and 2 metamorphs. (In addition to the usual 4 lodestones). I'm noticing that most decks have a very hard time to win against a resolved staff of nin. I would like fitting one more batterskull but it would have to take a wurmcoils place.
I think he was actually trying to say that Staff of Nin doesn't do enough for the cost.
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While I love playing with other MUD variations (Kuldotha combo, Godo aggro...), I always found MUD Stompy to be the most consistent. Since we don't need colored mana source, we can use tons of awesome utility lands. Mishra's Factory is a land that also helps apply pressure (and which can become a 3/3 on offense or a 4/4 on defense thanks to Voltaic Key, which is great for combat tricks). Buried Ruin is a land that can recur a threat if our other threats are answered. Crucible Of Worlds is nice against U/W Miracles and other control archetypes, since it lets us recur Mishra's Factory / Buried Ruin / Wasteland :)
Staff Of Nin is great against Miracles, since they can't answer it once it hits the battlefield. And you can recur it with Buried Ruin if they counter it :)
You mentioned U/W Miracles twice. Is that normally a bad matchup for you? I'm only curious because I haven't tested with your list.
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I personally run 4 cavern of souls as it is the nuts against most decks. I also run 2 ports, 4 wastelands, 3 buried ruins and the usual sol lands. I've also decided on not running revokers, not sure about it though. I think I would mostly name wasteland at top with it. Otherwise your list is very similar (I play a total of 4 karns with 2 on sideboard).
Cavern of Souls is nuts, and any MUD list that runs enough of one or two specific creature types should definitely be running a playset. In my list, for example, I run 8 Artificers and 9 Constructs.
Quote:
Oh gosh, there's tons of threads that have tried Artifact + Blue.
Off the top of my head: Deep Blue, 5/3, AfFOWnity, etc
If I remember correctly, the primary lacking from those shells have been: "what do I do when I don't have turn 1 Chalice @ 1?" and "How do I deal with permanents?"
Answer those two questions and the deck might be viable.
Cool story. What's your point though? If memory serves me correctly, Deep Blue and AfFOWnity are rediculously old and outdated, and what may or may not have worked back then is likely irrelevant now.
The deck might be viable? You speak as though the deck isn't... but why? I'm all for constructive criticism, but have you even tried playing with my list before assuming it's not viable? Or how about a more productive question: what matchups do you think renders it nonviable?
Regardless, what does that have anything to do with what you quoted? So because someone tried blue + artifact before means that trying it now with completely different cards isn't innovation? I have no idea why you decided to quote that for your response, but mmkay. I think you also completely missed the context of why I said that, but if for whatever reason you did, you should check out what Noobslayer said in the post above the one (of mine) that you quoted.
But I'll play along and answer your questions. The deck never needs a turn 1 Chalice@1. It's obviously a very nice start, but the deck doesn't just suddenly fall apart without it. Losing a Metalworker to Swords to Plowshares sucks, but this deck doesn't fold to it by any means. It's possible that you didn't notice, but my list runs a large density of enablers, creatures with built in draw and tutors, and every creature besides the enablers and Blightsteel have powerful ETB effects. The deck is chock full of redundancy and card advantage, and I get tons of value out of my ETB creatures even if the opponent has removal for them. I have a pretty hefty creature density, Greaves gives Shroud if the opponent is tapped out or doesn't have an immediate answer, and although Trinisphere doesn't actually prevent removal, it slows most of it down alot. You can even run Spellkite in the sideboard to bring in against spot removal heavy decks, if necessary.
How do I deal with permanents? Depends on what permanents you're talking about, I guess. The only permanent that I've had dropped against me that I've actually cared about so far has been Null Rod, which admittedly is a problem, but it's not very popular right now. Deed and Liliana are problems, but that matchup is bad for other reasons, and I'd rather work on addressing those issues first. Revoker out of the sideboard does deal with those, although its vulnerability to spot removal means its only a temporary solution. Humility is a problem too, but it is still possible to win out with 1/1's, I don't think many lists are running more than 2, and I cannot think of any commonly played deck that runs them in the main right now. I can play through Ensnaring Bridge/Propaganda/etc, so I don't really need maindeck permanent removal for those. Duplicant and Triskelion have been fantastic at dealing with creature permanents, Chalice stops 1cc and/or 2cc permanents from coming into play, Titan deals with basic land permanents, and Spine of Ish Sah can destroy whatever in postboard games.
...but dropping broken shits that are more powerful than the permanents my opponents are dropping has been better than dealing with their permanents, most of the time.
But let's get back to what I asked earlier. Why do you think this deck is not viable? What matchups do you think renders it so? I've been tuning the deck off and on for over a month now and the only matchup that I've found to be significantly unfavorable is B/G/x decks, and I've won far more games than I've lost against everything else, which has been primarily made up of Tier 1 and Tier 2 decks.
tl;dr - Please explain.
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I've had the best success with the flavored version that ran SFM with Batterskull and Cranial. It might have been to do with the lifegain to offset the life-loss from Ancient Tomb and Phyrexian Metamorph.
And I've had the best success with my U/b version. Not really sure what you were trying to get at there, since it didn't really do much to reinforce why you think blue + artifact isn't viable.
Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alex Holland
i have been thinking about red/blue humans.. Gives some nice options. Hell; some of the best creatures in magic are human.
Add 4 cavern 4 city of brass.. And go rainbow. Lol.
I don't get the city of brass, 4 caverns+a few mox diamonds can probably get you there with a few basics thrown in.
I went 3-1 tonight at my LGS
Goblins, Storm, Bant(loss), Bant.
I ran
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Mishra's Factory
6 Mountain
4 Mox diamond
4 Grim monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Tangle Wire
4 Magus of the moon
1 Goblin Welder
2 Godo Bandit Warlord
2 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Karn Liberated
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Phrexian Metamorph
SB
2 Spine of Ish Sah (Sneak show) uw control?
3 Phyrexian Revoker (Storm, Bant, Mavrick, more if I think about it)
2 Cursed Totem (Mavrick, Bant)
2 Relic of Progenitus (dredge, gy based stuff)
1 Tormod's Crypt (storm,gy based stuff)
3 Silent Arbiter (tribes, Ichorid)
2 Impending Disaster (UW control, turbo eldrazi, lands)
Props-Jitte was good of the top twice, Ratchet bomb--killed many noble hierarchs (this tech from Caleb Durwards build is sweet, it really shores up alot of okay matchups and gives you something to do turn one.), mana-base (always had something good turn one, only one mulligan), Magus of the moon lets you get all the benefit of a turn one ancient tomb or city of traitors, without the downside later of losing a bunch of life. Magus is nearly as good as turn one chalice and makes abrupt decay much harder to cast, a huge bonus.
I continue to believe that MUD is at its best when it lowers its curve. The sooner you are putting control elements on the table the better off you are. Metalworker is just too slow and wurmcoil is to bad vs swords.
I think the 3 Tangle Wire and 1 welder are the flex slots right now, but I'm not sure what I would really want instead.....
