All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by rufus

Ponder and Preordain may be better than the options that are available in other colors, but they are significantly weaker than brainstorm. Examples of how brainstorm is better is that brainstorm has a much stronger synergy with shuffle effects (like fetch lands), provides a defence against discard effects, and that brainstorm works better with defensive game plans that use mana.

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There are many reasons to not ban Brainstorm but rather to ban other cantrips despite Brainstorm being the most powerful. Prior to the printing of Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time I firmly believed that there was no problem with the format, and I absolutely think that banning Cruise was correct. But Dig poses a problem because of the critical mass of cheap, unconditionally castable spells that replace themselves and generate value while fuelling Delve. The problem isn't the power of any individual cantrip, not even Brainstorm, it's the fact that Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, and Gitaxian Probe are all good enough to play alongside Dig. You could also ban Dig, but then the format is effectively reset to its status pre-Khans but with stronger Burn and Ur Delver decks and maybe some role for Monastery Mentor. I doubt any of these decks are enough to break up the BUG Delver vs. Elves vs. Miracles metagame that existed this time last year. On the other hand, weakening the base of Dig fuel lets us keep Dig, move the meta forward, and play in a new, hopefully more fun environment.

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Originally Posted by maharis

I don't know about that, I think this is all a matter of opinion, at least with regard to Brainstorm. I think I'm the only person who's been somewhat swayed by an argument here. (Though it's more that I agree with btm10 that Brainstorm is considered too untouchable to ban).

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I'm glad that I wasn't completely ignored on this point. I try to be open to arguments, but most people seem to take fairly dogmatic views on whatever subject is discussed here, though there are exceptions (you, aggro_zombies, Lemnear when people aren't being idiots, and a few others). I really do want to try to hash out what would make the format healthier, but I'll admit to not caring at all about the color makeup of the format, and to getting irritated when a topic for discussion is rejected out of hand.

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Originally Posted by btm10

I really do want to try to hash out what would make the format healthier.

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Depends on what you consider to be healthier.

Right before Delver, Terminus and crap, and even more back in time, there were lots of fundamentally distinct strategies (this might overlap with color makeup of game, though), not the mesh of Delver decks (fed by BS), UW "Last Control Standing" Miracles (fed by BS), some sort of Ux combo (Snt based or Storm, both fed by BS).
There were dozens of viable decks and several main archetypes, and although some of them were more or less blue and/or shared the tactical approach (e.g. UGw/r/b Thresh was not really distinct no matter the color), there were far more possibilities an the metagame was open (I'm not talking about the stone age of Thresh vs. Goblins vs. Landstill) with any kind of stupid deck showing up and having quite some chance to win: it's not about All Common Zoo that someone brings to tables for fun, but about "real competitive decks" that are distinct in strategies/tactics and that do not share the same core of 16-20 cards, which in turn makes the nowadays cantrip/Dig-centric decks pretty undistuinguishable speaking of gameplay. (Although one may argue that it never gets old to watch cantrip after cantrip after cantrip.)

Not to speak about flavour and such (as it has little to do with competitive scene... but I still dislike how the "epic battles of warrior lords" turned into "cheap birthday party magicians contest"), but even the very deckbuilding + gameplay is affected by this and where there were many different strategies ranging from mana denial through aggro to SotF toolbox or whatever else comes to mind, nowadays scene is extremely streamlined (not that BS is only reason, see e.g. Emrakul and other SnTold crap, see miracles the mechanic, see Delver), because the things that can reasonably compete - again, I'm not considering All Common Zoo - are limited in that they must overcome (or join) the " tier-1-cantrip-brigade" that works not only as a perfect sculpting tool, but also as a defense against discard and fuel for Dig.

I strongly dislike the gaming experience where there are only several viable approaches and the games revolve in circles from one cantrip to another without any real meaning, any real thrill, any real impact (except for occasional blowout with BS->Terminus or Ponder->LED->AdN) and that are (at least on surface) quite the same. With n thousand of MtG cards in existence, one would expect many more viable strategies than just Shuffle Tricks Into Digs (please, spare me the unnecessary "brew moar, broh" as deck design is not my point now), coz what's really lacking in MtG is not exactly color extravaganza but distinction in game styles.

Stax (ok, we got DnT now), Goblins, BW Control, Green Red Beats (lose to combo, no fear!), blah blah, the "whatever comes to mind" horde, these decks are distinct from what few Delver piles rotate monthly into or out of the DtB thread, yet they're unlikely to ever make any real impact, as the blue shell outperforms whichever the non-hate pile you may build in the not-that-good colours.

"Real competitive minds play the best decks, etc." I'm not against competition (or competitivness), I'm against a dull metagame with little to none distinction between decks/tactics/strategies, I'm against unrecognizable games that are not worthy a memory, an ever the same opening sequences, against the price barrier of blue manabases, all that stuff that pesters the tournament scene. Not that it's solely Brainstorm's fault, as the NWO and overall powercreep and shitty design and old mistakes all form the nowadays mess, but just simply don't pretend there's no such trouble, because "Legacy is about powahfull plays, go play modern" or w/e.

If I'd want to play a format defined by swingy plays (incremental advantage is also a long lost concept/feature, except maybe for accumulated resources/CQ through cantrips), I'd play Vintage. An open wide metagame and tournaments where there is everything possible was what I always liked about T1,5 (that plus duals) and what brought me to the lgs scene. I'm afraid that part of that is lost (and thus I'm resorting to MWS only, as it's pretty much easier to dick around MWS rooms than the actual rooms in stinky quarters, additionally the pain of cards-related paperworks I feel no more), yet it's not exactly quite the same and the distinct gaming experiences are missing no less than in paper.

It's a great anticlimax when you find the recent Standard (with all its flaws and horrendous audience) much more thrilling and dynamic environment than that stagnating and boring garbage that Legacy turned into during last two or three years.

This might sound like I care much more than I actually do.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Depends on what you consider to be healthier.

...

Not to speak about flavour and such (as it has little to do with competitive scene... but I still dislike how the "epic battles of warrior lords" turned into "cheap birthday party magicians contest"), but even the very deckbuilding + gameplay is affected by this and where there were many different strategies ranging from mana denial through aggro to SotF toolbox or whatever else comes to mind, nowadays scene is extremely streamlined (not that BS is only reason, see e.g. Emrakul and other SnTold crap, see miracles the mechanic, see Delver), because the things that can reasonably compete - again, I'm not considering All Common Zoo - are limited in that they must overcome (or join) the " tier-1-cantrip-brigade" that works not only as a perfect sculpting tool, but also as a defense against discard and fuel for Dig.

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I was thinking about this recently, you would think with Theros being a Enchantment Block that enchantress would have gotten some support.

I too agree with you that the real tragety is not that everythign is "blue" it's that the diversity of of decks in the Meta and strategies has been shrinking for about 5-6 years. Maybe longer and I just didn't notice before... Also agree it's not actually brainstorms fault.

TBH instead of banning Brainstorm they should be concerned about creating some great cards, specially ones that other colors can use, instead insanelly shitty versions of cards, such as burn spells that causes 2 - and only to a creature. Really every new Magic collection has just been disheartening - it's either shitty new cards or blue cards people can exploit till they get banned.

That's why I'm happy with my Midrange Warlock and Malygos Warlock in Hearthstone, way more fun environment, plus I didn't have to spend 2k trying to buy an antiblue deck that way.

survival should have been unbanned this month. It's a green card that is powerful enough to fight blue strategies. Ditto with Earthcraft.

new legacy cards

stalemate elf
summon elf
G
1/1
shroud
any player may not draw more than one card per turn.
stalemate elf may not be sacrificed.
if stalemate elf is put into the grave yard from play from an opponent's spell or effect draw 3 cards

R
burnish powerblast
split second
target blue instant or sorcery is countered
If burnish powerblast successfully counters spell, search target opponents
library for up to 2 copies of that spell, shuffle target opponents library

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Originally Posted by dragonwisdom

If burnish powerblast successfully counters spell, search target opponents
library for up to 2 copies of that spell, shuffle target opponents library

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Perfect.

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Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos

TBH instead of banning Brainstorm they should be concerned about creating some great cards, specially ones that other colors can use, instead insanelly shitty versions of cards, such as burn spells that causes 2 - and only to a creature. Really every new Magic collection has just been disheartening - it's either shitty new cards or blue cards people can exploit till they get banned. ...

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Whatever, IMO there's a bunch of interesting cards in Origins.

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Originally Posted by dragonwisdom

new legacy cards

stalemate elf
summon elf
G
1/1
shroud
any player may not draw more than one card per turn.
stalemate elf may not be sacrificed.
if stalemate elf is put into the grave yard from play from an opponent's spell or effect draw 3 cards

R
burnish powerblast
split second
target blue instant or sorcery is countered
If burnish powerblast successfully counters spell, search target opponents
library for up to 2 copies of that spell, shuffle target opponents library

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http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...reation-thread

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Originally Posted by dragonwisdom

R
burnish powerblast
split second
target blue instant or sorcery is countered
If burnish powerblast successfully counters spell, search target opponents
library for up to 2 copies of that spell, shuffle target opponents library

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And what, admire the artwork?

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Originally Posted by Norm

And what, admire the artwork?

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It's obvious that he wanted to write If burnish powerblast successfully counters spell, search target opponents
library for up to 2 copies of that spell, add them to the ante zone, then shuffle target opponents library.

There is also some chances that instead he forgot to write "exile them".

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Originally Posted by Norm

And what, admire the artwork?

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whymtgcardsmith would be proud :tongue:

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Originally Posted by dragonwisdom

new legacy cards

stalemate elf
summon elf
G
1/1
shroud
any player may not draw more than one card per turn.
stalemate elf may not be sacrificed.
if stalemate elf is put into the grave yard from play from an opponent's spell or effect draw 3 cards

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You're about 12 years too late for this printing.

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R
burnish powerblast
split second
target blue instant or sorcery is countered
If burnish powerblast successfully counters spell, search target opponents
library for up to 2 copies of that spell and add them to the banned list, shuffle target opponents library

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That'll fix this thread up real quick.

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

whymtgcardsmith would be proud :tongue:

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OMG I'm dying. I want this guy to make Garruk Frogspeaker alters.

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Originally Posted by dragonwisdom

stalemate elf
summon elf
G
1/1
shroud
any player may not draw more than one card per turn.
stalemate elf may not be sacrificed.
if stalemate elf is put into the grave yard from play from an opponent's spell or effect draw 3 cards

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Counterproductive in Elves, needs to be White for maximum effect.

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

whymtgcardsmith would be proud :tongue:

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Thread redeemed. Thank you Stevestamopz !

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Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos

That's why I'm happy with my Midrange Warlock and Malygos Warlock in Hearthstone, way more fun environment, plus I didn't have to spend 2k trying to buy an antiblue deck that way.

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Don't forget that these decks are also more skill intensive than a lot of Legacy decks. If that is an advantage or disadvantage is up to every player.

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Originally Posted by adryan

don't forget that these decks are also more rng intensive than a lot of legacy decks. If that is an advantage or disadvantage is up to every player.

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ftfy

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Originally Posted by Norm

ftfy

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Counterbalance is of course totally fine RNG. There is not a single card in Hearthstone that is as game deciding as a random counterbalance flip.

Oh and one player not participating at the game because of mana screw, or Wasteland nut draw is also cool RNG.

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Originally Posted by Adryan

There is not a single card in Hearthstone that is as game deciding as a random counterbalance flip.

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Rag and Boom Bots disagree

RNG = random number generator?

http://www.gosugamers.net/hearthston...rng-than-magic

I have never lost a Control mirror Match because of Boom Bots and Ragnaros RNG. And I lost/ won a lot of Games because of absurd Counterbalance reveals. That card is really toxic and unfun and should be banned. Anyways this is getting really offtopic.... I can only suggest giving Hearthstone a try if you think Legacy is stale and blue dominated and you don't like that. I mean that is not going to change, just look at the first page of this thread.

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Originally Posted by Adryan

I can only suggest giving Hearthstone a try if you think Legacy is stale and blue dominated and you don't like that.

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While we're suggesting other games, I recommend Diplomacy, Titan, Axis & Allies, Supremacy 2020 (a modern revamp of the 1980s classic), Roborally (by R. Garfield), Cosmic Encounter (the game that inspired MTG), and/or A Game Of Thrones.

For one-on-one, specifically Titan or A&A.

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Originally Posted by Adryan

http://www.gosugamers.net/hearthston...rng-than-magic

I have never lost a Control mirror Match because of Boom Bots and Ragnaros RNG. And I lost/ won a lot of Games because of absurd Counterbalance reveals. That card is really toxic and unfun and should be banned. Anyways this is getting really offtopic.... I can only suggest giving Hearthstone a try if you think Legacy is stale and blue dominated and you don't like that. I mean that is not going to change, just look at the first page of this thread.

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You certainly don't lose to manascrew or -flood in Hearthstone.

One thing I really like is the mulligan they have there - replace any number of your starting hand cards with new draws. Too bad that in Magic, it would most likely end up in combo degeneracy (or an even bigger FoW circlejerks, who knows).

At least there are less "feel bad" moments because you had to mull to oblivion. The coin (basically a free lotus petal for the player on the draw) also compensates for alot of coin flip matches. At least according to Blizzard, it evened out the win percentage between play and draw.

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Originally Posted by Barook

You certainly don't lose to manascrew or -flood in Hearthstone.

One thing I really like is the mulligan they have there - replace any number of your starting hand cards with new draws. Too bad that in Magic, it would most likely end up in combo degeneracy (or an even bigger FoW circlejerks, who knows).

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We had that kind of mulligan in German Highlander. It felt amazing, but made proactive starts - NO/Rector fueled Hulk combo, aggressive 4c Goodstuff - really powerful. Still liked it a lot, though, and it might be a worthwhile thing to try in formats without some of singleton idiosyncracies (like 3c decks being more stable than 2c ones)

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Originally Posted by testing32

Rag and Boom Bots disagree

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I disagree. Knife Juggler Juggling like it may as well read target. Or in arena when Mad Bomber blows out your 2 drop for free. Or a MCTech taking the best 25/20%. In arena all these things are salt inducing.

In case anyone is interested, here are the top decks from today's SCG Open, with how many times the deck was in the top 32. sorted by the best finish of that deck type. Not certain on how much this relfects the metagame, or just dumb luck on someone's part, but the first repeat was the 11th place Elves list, there 17 different decks and I think it is 14 out of 32 decks that do not run FoW, as well as 12 without BS
Elves 4
Sultai Control 1
Storm 3
Merfolk 1
Grixis Delver 1
Affinity 1
Jeskai Delver 1
Omni-Tell 6
Miracles 2
Lands 1
Goblins 1
Reanimator 1
Death and Taxes 1
Temur Delver 2
Stoneblade 2
Maverick 3
Grixis Control 1

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Originally Posted by sjmcc13

In case anyone is interested, here are the top decks from today's SCG Open, with how many times the deck was in the top 32. sorted by the best finish of that deck type. Not certain on how much this relfects the metagame, or just dumb luck on someone's part, but the first repeat was the 11th place Elves list, there 17 different decks and I think it is 14 out of 32 decks that do not run FoW, as well as 12 without BS

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Other interesting things:

- 8 of the top 16 decks had no brainstorms.
- Affinity with MD chalices, Tezz, and 3 Days Undoing.
- 2nd place is infact BUG control and not shardless BUG.
- Merfolk, goblins and maverick make more of appearance than normal.
- No BUG delver

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

...
- Affinity with MD chalices, Tezz, and 3 Days Undoing.

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Yeah, Day's Undoing makes sense in affinity.

What was the top 8? I can't seem to find it on their site.

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Originally Posted by Crimhead

What was the top 8? I can't seem to find it on their site.

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Scroll down, when you see "DECKLISTS" on the right, click on "LEGACY" and the event will be the first one labeled "7/19 SCG Premier IQ Chicago, US"

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

- Affinity with MD chalices, Tezz, and 3 Days Undoing.

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Affinity who went 6-0, then drew the next 2 rounds to enter the top 8 in 2nd place.

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Originally Posted by Barook

You certainly don't lose to manascrew or -flood in Hearthstone.

One thing I really like is the mulligan they have there - replace any number of your starting hand cards with new draws. Too bad that in Magic, it would most likely end up in combo degeneracy (or an even bigger FoW circlejerks, who knows).

At least there are less "feel bad" moments because you had to mull to oblivion. The coin (basically a free lotus petal for the player on the draw) also compensates for alot of coin flip matches. At least according to Blizzard, it evened out the win percentage between play and draw.

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Not to mention having an extra card on the "draw", which influences your mulligan choices.

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

Not to mention having an extra card on the "draw", which influences your mulligan choices.

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Based on what was said about the "Coin" on the draw in Hearthstone, I would be interested to see how that would work in magic as a thought experiment. Say the player on the draw starts with 1 colorless mana that doesn't leave their pool until used - it would certainly make being on the draw against bullshit like turn 1 Delver/Daze more palatable.

It woukd make being on the draw against Shops easier to swallow.

I think it it was to be done, it woukd have to be a kind of land card you put into place. Start with 'Tap, exile this land: Add (1) to your mana pool". The issue with that though is its hard to balance it. The amount of broken shit you can do with that extra mana...

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

It woukd make being on the draw against Shops easier to swallow.

I think it it was to be done, it woukd have to be a kind of land card you put into place. Start with 'Tap, exile this land: Add (1) to your mana pool". The issue with that though is its hard to balance it. The amount of broken shit you can do with that extra mana...

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Yeah, I think the only way to determine whether it was good for the game or not would be to study statistics of games won on the play vs. on the draw before the change and after. If it evened up I would call it a success, if the player on the draw suddenly started winning 70% of the games that's obviously bad. But yeah, in Legacy and Vintage especially there are just so many feelbad things that can happen when you lose the roll - Daze, Delver, Wasteland, Chalice, Trinisphere, heck even Deathrite Shaman tend to make games super swingy when their controller is on the play.

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

Based on what was said about the "Coin" on the draw in Hearthstone, I would be interested to see how that would work in magic as a thought experiment. Say the player on the draw starts with 1 colorless mana that doesn't leave their pool until used - it would certainly make being on the draw against bullshit like turn 1 Delver/Daze more palatable.

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No need to get a rule change. Just make some cards that are better on the draw like Library (but obviously lower power level).

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

Say the player on the draw starts with 1 colorless mana that doesn't leave their pool until used - it would certainly make being on the draw against bullshit like turn 1 Delver/Daze more palatable.

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This could legitimately break modern. It gives Bloom Titan a chance for a turn 1 kill even if it's not running Simian Spirit Guide, and I'm pretty sure it would give GrisShoalBrand a better chance at a turn 1 kill too. Not to mention the shenanigans Affinity could get into with an extra mana on their first turn.

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Originally Posted by MASTICATOR_NORD

This could legitimately break modern. It gives Bloom Titan a chance for a turn 1 kill even if it's not running Simian Spirit Guide, and I'm pretty sure it would give GrisShoalBrand a better chance at a turn 1 kill too. Not to mention the shenanigans Affinity could get into with an extra mana on their first turn.

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I mean, sure, there would be negative consequences but it would have to be determined whether the positives outweighed them, or even whether to apply the change to non-eternal formats like Modern. In your example, this rule doesn't prevent either of those combo decks from folding to a turn one discard spell or Spell Pierce, which are currently huge issues for both of them when on the draw. However, overall Modern is a format where I am significantly LESS concerned with being on the draw than in Legacy - because of the lack of cards like Daze, DRS, Wasteland etc. the only huge blowouts due to being on the draw are when a combo deck has the nuts in my experience.

I made a spider for the TCDecks website to quickly gather data. It looks like the meta is in a worse state than during the TC-meta, at least when you look at the most played cards.

Cantrips evolution:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7d...ew?usp=sharing

( full data is available here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ion-since-2013 )

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Originally Posted by Nielsie

I made a spider for the TCDecks website to quickly gather data. It looks like the meta is in a worse state than during the TC-meta, at least when you look at the most played cards.

Cantrips evolution:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7d...ew?usp=sharing

( full data is available here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ion-since-2013 )

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It seems that Treasure Cruise was merely the catalyst for driving the cantrip shell into the stratosphere. People realized that playing 16 cantrips was actually pretty good, and once Cruise was banned it appears they didn't actually stop playing heavy-cantrip shells. Dig Through Time or assorted big dudes with Delve slotted in where Cruise had been but the shell stayed roughly the same.

That graph is indicative of the format and its wretched staleness. The delve spells haven't done anything more than Misstep did, both drove the needle from 70% to 90%. Misstep era was basically a 52 card format just like we have now, a 48-52 card format. There's already a format built to have 12 must play cards, it's called Vintage, it's a shame Legacy is now just a shitty, powered down, more homogeneous version of Vintage.