[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by Elfkid

Probably matchs like: Miracles, Delver,decks, storm, and midrange like jund, maverick, show and tell D:

Thanks for all^^

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Alright here's the requested sideboard help for Pfire Nic Fit. Bear in mind, this is not black and white; you'll need to be flexible depending your opponent's specific card choices. Because of that, I think it's more useful to talk about what's important in a given matchup as opposed to strict sideboarding guides. We'll be using the following list for reference:

Punishing Nic Fit

1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
4 Sensei's Divining Top

SB
1 Choke
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize

Miracles
This is one of the matchups where you need to be able to be very flexible with your sideboarding. Generally speaking, I'll be taking out some numbers of Punishing Fire, Eternal Witness, Scavenging Ooze, and Veteran Explorers and Cabal Therapy. We don't want our graveyard based stuff in the event they're running Rest in Peace. Explorers also help them almost as much as us. I typically leave one in to Zenith for in emergencies. We're looking to bring in the REBs, Choke, Slaughter Games, and K-Grip.

Against a mostly stock list, I would sideboard something like this:
-3 Veteran Explorer, -2 Punishing Fire, -1 Scavenging Ooze, -1 Cabal Therapy
+3 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Choke, +1 Krosan Grip, +2 Slaughter Games

I have to reiterate in this matchup you must be very adaptable. Against creature-heavy lists with Cliques, Vensers, and Snapcasters, you may want to leave in an extra PFire. Against the lists trying to Rest in Peace you, Witness loses value etc.

Delver.dec
You lumped them together so I'll kind of go over them together. All variants are pretty favorable with RUG being the toughest as they have the fastest clock and are most likely to mana screw you. Generally speaking there's not much sideboarding to do in these matchups as they're pretty heavily in your favor. Choke and REBs are the cards you want (and K-Grip vs UWR)

Vs RUG I would sideboard something like this
-2 Punishing Fire, -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Cabal Therapy
+3 REB, +1 Choke

Pretty straightforward. Pfire only kills Delver. Witness is clunky and you can't spend tons of time durdling with Therapy.

Vs BUG would be something like this
-4 Cabal Therapy
+3 REB, +1 Choke

Vs UWR would be something like this
-2 Eternal Witness, -1 Scavenging Ooze, -2 Cabal Therapy
+3 REB, +1 Choke, +1 Krosan Grip

Storm
Very straightforward. Take out bad cards, put in good ones.

-1 Primeval Titan, -1 Broodmate Dragon, -1 Thrun, the Last Troll, -3 Punishing Fire, -3 Abrupt Decay, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -1 Pernicious Deed
+3 Thoughtseize, +3 Surgical Extraction, +3 REB, +2 Slaughter Games

Midrange (Jund/Maverick etc)
Again I'll lump these because you did though the sideboarding is about the same. Shuffle in all 15 then take them all back out. These matchups are so lopsided in your favor there's not much sideboarding required. You can board in Golgari Charms vs Maverick and maybe K-Grip if they run Batterskull but that's about it.

Show and Tell
Again, very straightforward. Take out bad, put in good.

-3 Punishing Fire, -3 Abrupt Decay, -3 Pernicious Deed, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -1 Thrun, the Last Troll, -1 Primeval Titan, -1 Broodmate Dragon, -1 Grove of the Burnwillows

+3 Thoughtseize, +3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Slaughter Games, +3 REB, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Krosan Grip

That covers the matchups you asked for. Need any other advice just let me know.

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Originally Posted by HoneyT

Miracles
Storm
Show and Tell

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Hi HoneyT:laugh:

First of all, thanks for your answer, It nice have people that are helping me to start correctly with this deck haha

And the second, in this matchups you side in the SG, and I think that they depends the situation and the cards that can win us, but normally what card you name with it?

I think, IMO:

Miracles: 1) Entreat 2) jace

Storm: ANT: 1) Tendrils of agony 2) Burning W 3) Pif

TES: 1) Wish 2) Infernal tutor

Show and tell: Omnishow: 1) Enter the infinite 2) Cunning Wish
Sneak and Show: 1) Griseldady 2) Emrakul

Thanks for all^^

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Originally Posted by Elfkid

Hi HoneyT:laugh:

First of all, thanks for your answer, It nice have people that are helping me to start correctly with this deck haha

And the second, in this matchups you side in the SG, and I think that they depends the situation and the cards that can win us, but normally what card you name with it?

I think, IMO:

Miracles: 1) Entreat 2) jace

Storm: ANT: 1) Tendrils of agony 2) Burning W 3) Pif

TES: 1) Wish 2) Infernal tutor

Show and tell: Omnishow: 1) Enter the infinite 2) Cunning Wish
Sneak and Show: 1) Griseldady 2) Emrakul

Thanks for all^^

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1) Miracle -> yes go for ETA and then Jace
2) ANT -> yes but I don't see that many still playing BW.
3) TES -> Ok
4) Omnishow -> When you have taken out ETI, their only out is Emrakul so i'll pick that second.
5) S&S -> Emrakul and then Grisel (because Emrakul kills you faster...)

To add some general notes to sideboarding options (as I've tested some very particular MU):

1) Against Shardless BUG, I'll take out "Liliana" for "Thoughtseize" as your Liliana does not match theirs and it is important to grab one of their CA engine (be it AV / Shardless / Jace).
A turn 1 = AV is a 70 % loss for you (post side so that it includes REB...). PF = MVP in this MU, so play them tight.

->HoneyT BUG sideboard and -3 Liliana + 3 TS

2) Against storm I'll leave at least 2 AD in. Some storm players have strange sideboard options and you could get caught in the middle of something nasty, not to mention that they expect to cope with even more disruptions G2 & G3 so that they will likely play LED on their first turn to prevent you from being able to discard it (this is where AD shines). And if you wonder why: yes, I did lose to Xantid (holding SE and REB in hands), Pyromancer dudes more than I would want...

-> HoneyT sideboard and -1 Kessig -1 Forest +2 AD

3) Against Midrange it comes down to what you are facing but keep in mind that you are in the control seat. You are likely to face gravehate, so expect it and play tight.

Maverick = +2 Golgari -2 Liliana
Junk = +3 TS - 3 Liliana (mostly because of lingering souls), you can also go for +2 Golgari -2 Cabal Therapy.
Jund = +3 TS -3 Liliana (-3 therapy). We are favored but not by much. Bob, BBE, library (CA engine) should not be taken too lighlty or you will lose. I like to keep therapy in (instead of Liliana) because Jund list are usually "Quadlazered" (4 bob, 4 goyf, 4 drs etc...) so that a successful therapy could end the game before it even started.

@HoneyT: How would you expect your list to perform in the current online metagame?

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online

I'm currently unsatisfied how D&T performs in that meta (combination of bad luck and bad match-ups) and looking for non-blue alternatives to play in the meantime.

And how important is Liliana? I could sell off some boosters to buy 2-3 Lilianas, depending on the importance. At some point I would acquire them anyway since she's a staple.

Edit: That's all assuming they fix the Grove bug.

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Originally Posted by Ralf

1) Against Shardless BUG, I'll take out "Liliana" for "Thoughtseize" as your Liliana does not match theirs and it is important to grab one of their CA engine (be it AV / Shardless / Jace).
A turn 1 = AV is a 70 % loss for you (post side so that it includes REB...). PF = MVP in this MU, so play them tight.

->HoneyT BUG sideboard and -3 Liliana + 3 TS

2) Against storm I'll leave at least 2 AD in. Some storm players have strange sideboard options and you could get caught in the middle of something nasty, not to mention that they expect to cope with even more disruptions G2 & G3 so that they will likely play LED on their first turn to prevent you from being able to discard it (this is where AD shines). And if you wonder why: yes, I did lose to Xantid (holding SE and REB in hands), Pyromancer dudes more than I would want...

-> HoneyT sideboard and -1 Kessig -1 Forest +2 AD

3) Against Midrange it comes down to what you are facing but keep in mind that you are in the control seat. You are likely to face gravehate, so expect it and play tight.

Maverick = +2 Golgari -2 Liliana
Junk = +3 TS - 3 Liliana (mostly because of lingering souls), you can also go for +2 Golgari -2 Cabal Therapy.
Jund = +3 TS -3 Liliana (-3 therapy). We are favored but not by much. Bob, BBE, library (CA engine) should not be taken too lighlty or you will lose. I like to keep therapy in (instead of Liliana) because Jund list are usually "Quadlazered" (4 bob, 4 goyf, 4 drs etc...) so that a successful therapy could end the game before it even started.

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You're approaching the midrange decks wrong. The matchups are very much a grind where your goal is to get to the mid/late game and take over with more powerful cards. It's the classic big zoo vs little zoo. The zoo deck with Baneslayers is going to beat the deck with little dorks. Thoughtseize does not accomplish that goal. You want your cards to affect the board and a 3 mana edict is just fine. In a topdeck war if they rip a bob or goyf and you rip a Thoughtseize you are not going to win.

I didn't previously go over Shardless BUG because he didn't ask about it. But it's another very favorable matchup. The only way they can realistically win is with Jace and Visions so again, Thoughtseize is not where you want to be in that matchup. REB is waaaaaaaaayyyyyyy better.

Against storm leaving in Decay is silly. You already leave Deeds in the deck for artifact mana, random dudes they may bring in and empty tokens. You can only keep so many of that type of effect in the deck and Deed is just the best at the job. If someone is boarding in Xantid Swarm against you, be happy because that means they took out a card that does something.

And Barook, the deck should perform just fine in the online metagame. It's just going to require lots of practice and fair warning, like Arianrhod and myself have told many a new Nic Fit player, you will lose a lot at first. But once you learn the intricacies of each matchup you'll notice your win rate will climb.

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Originally Posted by HoneyT

And Barook, the deck should perform just fine in the online metagame. It's just going to require lots of practice and fair warning, like Arianrhod and myself have told many a new Nic Fit player, you will lose a lot at first. But once you learn the intricacies of each matchup you'll notice your win rate will climb.

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I have no problem with that. Same with D&T in match-ups like Miracles. Good thing is MODO allows you to pratice alot pretty fast. :smile: And long as I'm doing fine against Miracles, Elves, various Delver decks and Burn, I'm fine.

That still leaves my Liliana question open: How crucial are they in the grand scheme of things?

@HoneyT: You mentioned perhaps ditching a Grove in the Sneak&Show matchup. Wouldn't it be better to side out the Wolf Run?
We have no Primeval Titan anymore to make it work for the best, and it doesn't tap for coloured mana.
I would think it'd be a good idea to cut the Wolf Run and keep the fourth Grove.

Also against Storm that could be a slot, keeping the third Deed in to make going off with a row of mana rocks somewhat more awkward, and of course as an out against the occasional Empty the Warrens. Not that they should go for Empty against Nic Fit, but sometimes that's just the hand they draw.

Hello,
About two year ago I was working Nic Fit and 12post hybrid, I even won GPT Amsterdam in Warsaw with it.Now after decay priniting I wrote Primer, Its very well handling current meta. Keeping good MU with RUG and BUG with much better MU vs Miracles was main aim link
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Nic-Feat-8Post

Have a nice reading it's still under construction so any advice/errors please send to me.

@Barook
I wouldn't play the deck without Lily. It's one of your best threats vs combo and miracles and is obviously very good with Pfire. You could in theory run a list without them but it will not perform as optimally.

@Asthereal
The cut should actually be basic forest. The manabase can still support 2 colorless lands and I like being able to draw Wolf Run and put the clock on and close out the game quickly.

For storm that was my sideboarding vs ANT. Vs TES I do board out a land and keep the third Deed. They have Chrome Mox and are more likely to go for goblins making Deed better against them.

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Originally Posted by HoneyT

You're approaching the midrange decks wrong. The matchups are very much a grind where your goal is to get to the mid/late game and take over with more powerful cards. It's the classic big zoo vs little zoo. The zoo deck with Baneslayers is going to beat the deck with little dorks. Thoughtseize does not accomplish that goal. You want your cards to affect the board and a 3 mana edict is just fine. In a topdeck war if they rip a bob or goyf and you rip a Thoughtseize you are not going to win.

I didn't previously go over Shardless BUG because he didn't ask about it. But it's another very favorable matchup. The only way they can realistically win is with Jace and Visions so again, Thoughtseize is not where you want to be in that matchup. REB is waaaaaaaaayyyyyyy better.

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After more than 100 matches against Shardless BUG (version with Tombstalker & Toxic deluge MD) the last two weeks, post side TS > Liliana.
And I don't see where I said I don't side in REB. I'm doing REB + TS.
And no, the MU is clearly not "very favourable" rather " lightly unfavourable" since I lost 55/60 % the first games. It gets a little better post board to a mere 50/50.

I do agree with you the big Z vs little z but not in these MU.
-> Junk is very favourable (10-1 against my friend last sunday) but against SFM & lingering soul, I prefer TS over Liliana because the edict effect is too unreliable / and grabbing equipment, whenever they look for it, is priceless if not the match drags forever...
-> If Jund curves properly which is why it is more often than not a DTB with the following sequence T1 fetch DRS, T2 TS + Bob, T3 Hymn + waste/ T3 BBE cascade, they'll rip your hand apart with TS/Hymn and Liliana won't get you out of trouble. You NEED to handle the T2 CA engine (Bob, Sylvan, Hymn) if not you are behind. And TS is far better than Liliana is this config.

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Originally Posted by HoneyT

Against storm leaving in Decay is silly. You already leave Deeds in the deck for artifact mana, random dudes they may bring in and empty tokens. You can only keep so many of that type of effect in the deck and Deed is just the best at the job. If someone is boarding in Xantid Swarm against you, be happy because that means they took out a card that does something.

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I'm increasing the deck's card density by cutting 2 lands for 2 AD. 23 lands is too much against deck's strategy that wins on T2/T3. (Not only xantid but also the pyromancer guy shitting dudes...)

I'm always happy to discuss "sideboarding strategy".

Here's the Rector list that I'll be starting testing with:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
2 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Thragtusk
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Sun Titan

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Erebos, God of the Dead

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Council's Judgment
1 Toxic Deluge

2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

1 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland

sb: 1 Garruk, Apex Predator
sb: 1 Tsunami
sb: 1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

sb: 2 Thoughtseize
sb: 1 Cranial Extraction
sb: 2 Aven Mindcensor
sb: 2 Ethersworn Canonist

sb: 2 Carpet of Flowers
sb: 1 Nether Void
sb: 1 Rule of Law
sb: 1 Engineered Plague

Interesting chooses:

1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned

Can you explain why this cards ? Specially why SDE - I can't find how it can be better then Wurmcoil Engine.

It kills directly when looping with Rec. Nightmare, also it gives a bit of reach.

What I'm more interested in is the shift from 2 STE to additional removal -aren't you afraid that your deck becomes too clunky, or do you think that the additional removal buys you the necessary time to make additional land drops and thus compensate for the decrease in ramp?

Other than this, I'm strongly considering picking this deck up, once I have the missing pieces - it's been a while since I sleeved up Rectors.

I would guess that it is a 6 ball that can be redirected to dome planeswalkers if you have a sac effect ready when you play it. Seems fine with recurring nightmare too as this list has quite a few creatures that dont really use the loop.

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Originally Posted by Barook

That still leaves my Liliana question open: How crucial are they in the grand scheme of things?

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I think they are really important. Lili is great in so many varied matchups that I think you should have a really good reason to run anything else. The ability for one of your removal spells to stick around and take over the game on it's own certainly adds a lot of power compared to just using an edict effect in that slot. She can also grind people out in a roundabout way by just feeding her the same p-fire every turn.

The PF bug is supposed to get fixed tomorrow, so it's to for me to pick up the deck.

That said, what's our plan against Burn? It's a major part of the online metagame and must be taken into consideration.

Rush for Tusk, Huntmaster and Ooze. Ideally the first 2 and then the Ooze. Play around PoP and you will find burn is not too challenging.

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Originally Posted by Fatal

Interesting chooses:

1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned

Can you explain why this cards ? Specially why SDE - I can't find how it can be better then Wurmcoil Engine.

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Originally Posted by Philipp2293

It kills directly when looping with Rec. Nightmare, also it gives a bit of reach.

What I'm more interested in is the shift from 2 STE to additional removal -aren't you afraid that your deck becomes too clunky, or do you think that the additional removal buys you the necessary time to make additional land drops and thus compensate for the decrease in ramp?

Other than this, I'm strongly considering picking this deck up, once I have the missing pieces - it's been a while since I sleeved up Rectors.

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

I would guess that it is a 6 ball that can be redirected to dome planeswalkers if you have a sac effect ready when you play it. Seems fine with recurring nightmare too as this list has quite a few creatures that dont really use the loop.

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These are both correct with regards to Scuttles.

I firmly believe that for Rector to exist in today's metagame, the graveyard interaction which makes Rector what it is must sadly be de-emphasized. That said: you still do want some powerful toys to go with Nightmare because it's a good way to break open game 1s against a lot of decks and because you want to encourage people to side in their graveyard hate while you side out your graveyard interaction.

Nice Rest in Peace bro. Here's an Apex Predator.

With regards to Selvala, there's a couple of things going here.

-) She's huge. 2/4 for 1gw is very sizable -- she can block a powered mongoose forever, for example. There are times where she can reasonably beat down, too, although I do wish she had vigilance.
-) She gains life...potentially 2/turn. This means that when passed through the philosophy of Time, an activate Selvala will gain 1 Turn per 2 activations on average. Incidentally, 2 life is also the cost of a card per Erebos.
-) She gains mana...potentially 2/turn. I have rarely used her as a mana dork, but it is necessary functionality to be aware of. Some times you'll have 2 lands, Selvala, and can play and crack Deed for 1.
-) She draws cards. This is the big one. Yes, the opponent draws a card, too. The ability is actual howling mine (although if you EoT it, you get first crack at the extra cards). However, keep in mind that Nic Fit's cards are almost universally better than the opponents'. Furthermore, the card drawn is known information, so if whatever they draw is actually that scary, we can always Therapy it out.
-) She also makes Top turbo-charged. You can Top, put a nonland on top, Selvala, drawing said nonland and gaining 1 life and 1 mana, and then use that mana to re-Top, getting one deeper. Top is powerful when it's 1: look at the top 3. It's broken when it's 1: look at the top 4. I would argue that Top@3 is parity with blue's card selection, but that Top@4 surpasses it.
-) This is rather fringe, but you can also stonewall a Batterskull or a Jitte with her + Karakas. It's not what you want to be doing at all, but it is possible.

@Phillip:

Note that I specifically said that this is a list wherein I will -start testing-. I have no idea if trimming the pair of Sakuras for the extra StP + Decay is actually correct. I know that I like the idea of having additional removal -- as you said, it changes the metric from having quite so much ramp to one wherein you're able to make more land drops because you aren't dying to a 3/2 on turn one.

There are a few other things going on here, though.

Consider the mana curve as compared to the Rector lists of yore. The new list is much more trim and lithe, with a lower overall cmc and specifically fewer 4-drops. The older Rector lists wanted to skip to 4 mana as quickly as possible to deploy Rector. This list is much more controlling and much more geared to the long game. It's not quite as inevitable as 12post or Lands, but it's close. If there is one thing that Sakura is good at, it's skipping from 2->4. We don't as much want to skip to 4, now, though. If anything, I think I would rather run Wood Elves because it skips from 3->5, which is more relevant because our true power comes at 5.

Furthermore, the Recurring Nightmare engines have been de-emphasized. Like I said, there is still interaction and Nightmare is still fundamentally broken in game one. But the games wherein we rush Nightmare will be much rarer. There was a point at which one of the reasons for Sakura's inclusion was that it put a critter in the graveyard to Nightmare loop with on turn 3. We no longer live in that world.

We'll see where testing takes us. Cutting Sakura might be a horrible idea and I might immediately reverse my decision, but I want to try it. For Rector, Sakura is not the sacred cow (snake?) that it is for something like, say, Scapewish. Scapewish's velocity requires as many lands being spewed into play as quickly as possible. Rector is more interested in playing a control game, and that means you need removal arguably more than extra ramp.

Also, I should specify something about the Sun's Champion I have in the sideboard currently. Ideally, I want a 5-drop combat walker in that slot. The issue is that the only currently existing playable 5-drop combat walker is Garruk, Primal Hunter, and I do not want two Garruks for obvious reasons. Pending testing, she may become either her original Knight-Errant iteration or the classic Sorin, Lord of Innistrad that I've run a number of times. I do know that I want that slot to be a planeswalker. I just don't know which one (or if it even exists yet).

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Also, I should specify something about the Sun's Champion I have in the sideboard currently. Ideally, I want a 5-drop combat walker in that slot. The issue is that the only currently existing playable 5-drop combat walker is Garruk, Primal Hunter, and I do not want two Garruks for obvious reasons. Pending testing, she may become either her original Knight-Errant iteration or the classic Sorin, Lord of Innistrad that I've run a number of times. I do know that I want that slot to be a planeswalker. I just don't know which one (or if it even exists yet).

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What do you mean by "a 5-drop combat walker"? Is that just something like Elspeth KE or Sorin LOI that drops a body in front of it right away, or is it just any five-drop walker? If it's the latter, the two I immediately thought of were Vraska and Gideon.

I just noticed that HoneyT's list doesn't run Stronghold. That seems rather odd, especially while running Titan. What's the reason for that?