[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

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Originally Posted by Kadaj

You're making the mistake of assuming an opponent will always have 9001 removal spells. They won't. And as you've said repeatedly, if you try to play against your opponents god hands, you can't win, especially with a control deck.

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Ummm...it's turn 6/7/8/x ... game 1, I wouldn't consider that a God-hand. I would consider that a situation where the opponent was drawing dead cards against you that have now become extremely relevant. I thought part of the reason to play this deck was to make your opponents' cards useless against you. Why would you want to make them usable again?

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Originally Posted by Kadaj

This is false for the same reasons I've stated over and over again. You know why people hate arguing with you? Because you dodge opposing points by rubbishing them without actually providing a single legitimate reason why they're invalid. How, exactly, is Morphling even remotely worse against large threats? It can easily block them and live, all the while still attacking through (this requires a grand total of maybe 5 mana if all you care about is getting damage through will still being able to block). For comparison, CtS requires 7 mana, a land, and can't attack throughout this process.

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I think IBA is referring to the fact is Morphling is oftentimes worse against large threats the turn it comes down than Call the Skybreaker would be the turn it comes down. The turn Morphling comes down, you need 5 mana to cast, 1-3 for counterspell/shroud, 5-7 to eat the opponent's creature and live. For Morphling to be good the turn it comes down against fat, you will need 11-15 mana available, which is opposed to the 7 for Call the Skybreaker.

After you untap, Morphling should be just as viable as Call the Skybreaker for any situation.

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Originally Posted by Kadaj

I repeat, you're making the mistake of assuming your opponent will always have a ton of removal. They. Will. Not. For two reasons: First, most decks do not play a ton of removal in the first place. Second, decks like Threshold will actively attempt to shuffle their removal away looking for more relevant cards.

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Opponents will be trying to shuffle excess removal away, but come turn 6/7/8/x, your opponent will have probably drawn more. Not a "ton", but enough if you are dropping Morphling with only 1 mana available after Morphling resolved then it will definitely be vulnerable. (these decks will attempt to counter your Superman...Daze making one less shroud on Morphling...Force of Will that needs to be countered...etc.) Will Morphling live most of the time when you have 1 mana available after it resolved? Sure, but there will be enough situations to warrant consideration for something new.

The non-threshold/non-landstill decks, on the other hand, have no real way to shuffle away dead removal. This means these decks will probably have a "ton" of removal (if by a ton, you mean 2...maybe 3).

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Originally Posted by Kadaj

No, I don't find vulnerable 5/5 fliers to be good. Especially 5/5 fliers that require you discard lands to bring it back, which you continuously assume you will have a limitless supply of. I find that hard to believe because, I don't know about you, but I like to make my land drops with this deck. That means I usually don't have a lot of land in my hand. This makes Morphling better, and CtS worse.

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The thing is, these tokens are just as vulnerable as Morphling but in different ways. Call the Skybreaker is vulnerable to Extirpate and graveyard hate. The tokens can be stolen by Vedalken Shackles, Sower of Temptation, or even Threads of Disloyalty. Recurring Engineered Explosives sucks too (I run 1 Academy Ruins in my deck to stop that shenanigans...and to recur Powder Keg!) I'm not worried about Call the Skybreaker being countered or even worried about them using spot removal on it. It will get there eventually. If you say it won't because your opponent's horde of creatures or threats on turn 7 is overwhelming...well...I'm pretty sure Morphling wouldn't get there either.

Morphling dies to mass removal, Fact or Fiction it away, counterspells, and more often than not sucks the turn it comes into play by not being 100% immune (multiple targeted removal may get there).

Everyone knows the pros and cons of both creatures.

Spam Deleted
-TOOL

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

So, 8 consecutive pages later...

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We've come to the conclusion that it depends on what you want. And it's a matter of personal preference. /shrug

There is always going to be "the best card" for any given situation, I guess it's just a matter of tallying up those situations and how often you run into them.

Off-topic content deleted. -TOOL


To those who run fetches, Plains, Swamp, and EEs, how are you liking that config over Keg or Disk? I have a playset of EEs, but haven't really been using them (other than Faerie Stompy SB). Does EE @ 3 prove to be too detrimental if you've already had to commit B2B, Propaganda, and Shackles to the board? How often you do find yourself EE @ 3, as opposed to EE @ 1 or 2? What types of cards do you often find yourself EEing that Keg could not? Counterbalance? I'm curious to know as I have never used the fetchland, EE config.

Spam deleted
-TOOL

Magic the Gathering is not a game of artistic merit and warm feelings. It's a game of math and resource management.

There are decisions that are right or wrong based on the situation at hand.

There are no decisions that are right or wrong based on personal preference or what you want. "What you want" is to win. Anything that doesn't give you the greatest chance of winning is wrong.

Expounded; http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...p?Article=6596

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There are no spectacular plays. There are no"good" plays. There are no plays for which you should pat yourself on the back. There is only the right play and a huge number of other plays, none of which are the particular right play, and therefore what we call"mistakes." You may not know what the right play is and therefore make a mistake; the great thing about mistakes is that you have the opportunity to make them almost constantly in Magic: you can err with every stack, step, and phase, and sometimes with plays not on the stack, like playing land, tapping a Talisman, or morphing up a creature (and I mean"great" in terms of volume, not in the sense of quality to you, the player, obviously).

Now this is a hard thing to get your head around, and especially for players who have a hard time with patriarchal explanations of the universe, probably a controversial definition. Despite the fact that I was working with none other than Jon Finkel, I resisted this definition myself (likely, in hindsight, because I was making so many mistakes and didn't want to own up to them).

On every stack of every turn, there is one exact right thing that you should do. One. There is a particular land that you should play. There is a particular order in which you should cast your spells. There are hands that you should mulligan, even when you have lands and spells, and there are times that you should go out on a limb, praying that you draw mana. Any time you deviate from the exact right play, you are making a mistake. That is not to say that there are not varying degrees of mistakes; some are fairly harmless (tapping a Coastal Tower when you have a large number of both Islands and Plains in play), some are more relevant, such that they may or may not cost you games (tapping a Salt Marsh for generic mana when you may later have to tap an Underground River for colored mana), and there are some fairly lethal ones (whatever you just did that cost you the game that you didn't think would cost you the game at the time, but ended up costing you the game what a bad beat). Keep in mind that even the mildest mistakes, like that first Coastal Tower example, are bad in the sense that making them will lead to a pattern in your play that will eventually catch up with your W/L column.

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It applies to deckbuilding as much as actual gameplay.

That being said, I'm increasingly intrigued by the white splash for DoJ and Eternal Dragon, which are simply much better kill conditions.

But this leads down to the question, eventually, of whether U/W Landstill isn't just a better deck. It could probably run Shackles if it wanted to. Hell, cut the manlands for DoJ and Dragon and you could run B2B in the board.

@ TheInfamousBearAssassin

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That being said, I'm increasingly intrigued by the white splash for DoJ and Eternal Dragon, which are simply much better kill conditions.

But this leads down to the question, eventually, of whether U/W Landstill isn't just a better deck. It could probably run Shackles if it wanted to. Hell, cut the manlands for DoJ and Dragon and you could run B2B in the board.

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Beyond just the win condition, I think the best reason to play the white splash is that MUC's board control options are often in conflict with B2B, and a splash won't have that problem.

Perhaps you'd be interested in this then:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...798#post295798



peace,
4eak

My first thought is that running 4x B2B when you already run Tutor seems like a waste.

My second was that you still want 1x Disk, just since you can tutor for it.

My next thought after that was that Standstill would be a great tutorable draw engine that works really well with Decree of Justice.

Yeah. It went there.

Maybe that's the best direction to go, though. A more nuts and bolts Draw-Go approach to Landstill, with a somewhat stronger manabase and Shackles.

I have a UW deck that is more or less draw-go spliced together UW landstill with tutors. I'm sure that it needs some tuning, but it gives me a pretty good idea of how the deck would work...meh. I'd rather just play 4c landstill or muc then again I am not really keen on going through hybridizing two archetypes and then tuning it from the ground up if I am not really too excited about it after the first few test matches. It could be pretty good, but it was sort of clunky to me.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

To those who run fetches, Plains, Swamp, and EEs, how are you liking that config over Keg or Disk? I have a playset of EEs, but haven't really been using them (other than Faerie Stompy SB). Does EE @ 3 prove to be too detrimental if you've already had to commit B2B, Propaganda, and Shackles to the board? How often you do find yourself EE @ 3, as opposed to EE @ 1 or 2? What types of cards do you often find yourself EEing that Keg could not? Counterbalance? I'm curious to know as I have never used the fetchland, EE config.

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I see it more like a safe EE@2, but there were times I used it @3, too.
Against certain decks like Fairy oder Dragon Stompy EE@3 is quite important and safe as they have no way to get rid of you basics plains and swamp.
Once you survived the first 1 or 2 attackers, a resolved shackles does the rest.
I have even killed things like Choke with it - where Plains + Swamp payed the 2 activation cost. But most important, it's usually a turn faster than Keg even if it is played as an answer AFTER the thread resolved (I guess in perm-based MUC you play Keg proactive and let it @1 until you see a threat you want to let slip through).

So I'd either run a targetted chep and flexible removal artifact as EE or a complete reset button like Disk instead of Keg which I you usually have to play in pure MUC builds if you don't run Disk.

I think I'll try the fetchland/EE config for a while. I've been satisfied with Keg, but the few times a problematic enchantment resolves, it's been :cry: for me.

@ Doks

With a 'slightly' multi-colored mana-base for EE, do you ever find yourself tempted to push the envelope just a bit more and splash? I know I would be tempted by:

-StP
-Cunning Wish Board
-Eternal Dragon (just 2 or 3 plains in a deck make this dude viable)

I've found Disk to be flat out better than EE in straight up Draw/Go, but if we were splashing for more than EE I think it would be much easier to justify. If you are tempted at all to splash, why don't you?

I guess while I wait for your answer I'll try out something like this:

CQ/CA: 8
4x Brainstorm
4x Fact or Fiction

Permission: 14
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
3x Mana Leak
3x Force Spike/Spell Snare

Board Control: 13
3x Vedalken Shackles
3x EE
3x B2B
4x StP

Win-Stuff: 2
1x Meloku/Efreet/Morphling/etc.
1x Eternal Dragon

Mana-Base: 23
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
10x Island
3x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Tundra


(I can think of a few people who might be thinking that this is just going towards Landstill. I genuinely think this deck isn't Landstill, especially because it plays B2B, plays a ton of basics, sports a heavy permission base, and abuses shackles heavily. The splash for non blue mana makes it not exactly MUC though, so perhaps the post belongs elsewhere).


peace,
4eak

Why wouldn't you run DoJ in the Morphling/Whatever slot? It's not like you're not already vulnerable to Stifle, but DoJ is a freakin' instant-speed, usually uncounterable beating.

Would the Esper Fetch be worth running in this deck?

Has anyone considered Draining Whelk in Draw-Go? Too slow, or too hit-or-miss with many spells costing 3 or less?

I thought about it. A kill condition mix of Whelk, Mulldrifter and Venser might work in a Mono-U shell, since they all serve duplicate roles and are less constraining on the card slots. But how often is Whelk going to be much more than a six mana Mystic Snake?

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Originally Posted by 4eak

CQ/CA: 8
4x Brainstorm
4x Fact or Fiction

Permission: 14
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
3x Mana Leak
3x Force Spike/Spell Snare

Board Control: 13
3x Vedalken Shackles
3x EE
3x B2B
4x StP

Win-Stuff: 2
1x Meloku/Efreet/Morphling/etc.
1x Eternal Dragon

Mana-Base: 23
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
10x Island
3x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Tundra

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I have found most of the time Shackles and Keg to be enough board control for creatures in the early game. It seems like having Force Spike/Spell Snare and Swords to Plowshares along with Shackles and now Explosives in such high numbers, we are overplaying the early game. Could we cut the Force Spike/Spell Snare/Mana Leak and run 2x Decree and another Shackles or Explosives?

Would running Academy Ruins be bad here? Yes, it is no good after Back to Basics but recurring Explosives could be a valid option, right? I currently run it for recurring Powder Keg if Back to Basics isn't online and it never hurts anything if B2B is in play. I can see a 1-of being a solid addition...

Btw a Trix deck reached top4 in a 162player tournament in spain

@ TheInfamousBearAssassin

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Why wouldn't you run DoJ in the Morphling/Whatever slot? It's not like you're not already vulnerable to Stifle, but DoJ is a freakin' instant-speed, usually uncounterable beating.

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Yeah, I have no problem with DoJ in that slot (currently using it myself). It's the tweak-win condition slot. A second E-Dragon isn't terrible either.

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Would the Esper Fetch be worth running in this deck?

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Totally forgot about that card. Will try it out. It does play around B2B for the most part. It doesn't tap for blue the turn it comes into play, and that would be the only thing I can hold against it. I think a singleton Tundra does a lot for smoothing though.


@ Shawon

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Has anyone considered Draining Whelk in Draw-Go? Too slow, or too hit-or-miss with many spells costing 3 or less?

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Tested that card extensively. It is very conditional, comes into play too late, and it has zero resistance to board control. As a threat, it is a poor choice.

It also fails as a permission spell. Because the CC of the targeted spell affects the offensive potency of Whelk, instead of serving as a solid late game counter, you are forced to play around the card to make real use of it. We have too few slots open to play the card. I'd be more interested in Spelljack, Foil, or Time Stop if I wanted unique permission.


@ Jason

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I have found most of the time Shackles and Keg to be enough board control for creatures in the early game. It seems like having Force Spike/Spell Snare and Swords to Plowshares along with Shackles and now Explosives in such high numbers, we are overplaying the early game.

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The early game of MUC always needs improvement. Between EE/Shackles/FoF/Brainstorm(shuffled) I think our mid and late game is chuck full of card advantage and board control.

1 for 1 until you can drop a bomb and AoE yourself into relevant card advantage that your opponent can't match.

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Would running Academy Ruins be bad here? Yes, it is no good after Back to Basics but recurring Explosives could be a valid option, right?

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Worth testing. I didn't include it because some might consider it a controversial choice (although, I'm not scared to play a few non-basics in MUC, even with B2B in the main).





peace,
4eak

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Originally Posted by 4eak

With a 'slightly' multi-colored mana-base for EE, do you ever find yourself tempted to push the envelope just a bit more and splash?

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Sure I was. Have tried it out few times, ending up with this (quite old, late summer this year):

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
1 Tundra
11 Island


1 Morphling
1 Decree of Justice
2 Hoofprints of the Stag


4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Meditate

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Back to Basics

Little bit of explanation:

With 4 StoP I felt 12 counters to be enough - instead of Mana Leaking / Force Spiking the 2nd Turn Confidant / Tarmogoyf / whathaveyou I just plowed it for only W.
Hoofprints were quite cool, but only slightly better for winning in certain situations (too funny watching Sui & Co. dying to it and really good against Burn since I had the mana open to counter important burn spells after playing it) and 1 time it I was like "wtf?!" when a random G/W weenie deck gripped Hoofprints both times with 3 counters on it...
Decree is always awesome: either it buys you time and - with a little bit of luck - kills a non-threshed Mongose on T4 or just wins games surprisingly as nobody expects DoJ after Force, Counterspell, Shackles, B2B and EE.
With StoP as the cheapest pinpoint removal available to this deck now (read: don't take too much damage in the opponent's extra turn), I wanted to replace the Accumulated Knowledges which I had run before with another raw CA spell since I felt and still feel only BS and FoF not to be enough for this game plan - so I chose Meditate (after following it's inclusion in TEC and opening a thread in the format discussion forum); synergistic with Hoofprints, too.

The main reason to splash was still StoP - if U could do any equivalent thing like StoP does for W at CC1, I would switch to pure MUC every day at once - but meh, who wouldn't ... ? -.-'
The other options W offers are quite good options, but I wouldn't play them if I wasn't going to play StoP.


I can't think of any clear list for stack-oriented MUC since I haven't played for about 8 weeks now, but maybe a very light splash version just like Dreadstill splashes could work (less W sources, only 3 StoP, less B2B, more Academy Ruins ... )

Word up peeps: check out this newest MUC concoction I've come up with. I built the list considering Tao's Idea of only playing utility creatures and checking out some Mono Blue extended lists. Looks real strange on paper but I'm 9-1 in matches with it on MWS against only serious opponents beating TA, 3 Dreadstill decs, 1 Quinn, dredge, a pox, a rock, aggro loam and a couple of randomish decs, my only loss being to dredge. Voila:

// Lands
12 [10E] Island (3)
1 [UNH] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RAV] Swamp (4)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

// Spells
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [TSP] Think Twice
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [LRW] Cryptic Command
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [FNM] Fact or Fiction

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 4 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast

I had been running the same basic setup minus the 8 faeries plus 4 force spike 2 morphlings a CtS and an extra Cryptic command to satisfying results but wanted to give the faeries a try after seeing how awesome clique from the SB was.
Vendillion Clique definetly is the real deal fitting the draw go strategy nicely and being incredibly good at handling opposing recursion.
Also I really have to recomend to everyone to test Cryptic command it's fantastic I really want to find room for a third but I'd be overloading my 4 drop. I kind of feel like I should add land number 23 but I'm not quite sure what to cut, all the games I've lost so far have been due to manafumbling or getting a fetchland stifled.
Spellstutter sprite has been solid but not amazing but still better than force spike, altough I might have to continue to run spikes for fear of loosing hard to aggro. The nice thing about running spellstutter is the fact that I now have 19 hard counters in a dec that never has to spend more than 3 mana on it's turn. There's really no way to loose the lategame with that permission set.