[Deck] Ichorid

I think the biggest problem with Eternal Witness is if you don't have mana, it's nearly useless (LED?). Since we usually only have 1-2 lands in play, some of which only make blue mana, it wouldn't be hard for a single Wasteland to make Witness dead.

I'm all about trading explosiveness for utility, since I don't think Ichorid is as fast as advertised and needs a little staying power, but Witness is risky. Still, worst case scenario they'll counter what you get back instead of the Dread Return, so at least you get a non-token creature out of it.

I could see it being good in low land destruction metas.

I think the opponent would be far more likely to just counter the DR knowing it's targeting her. At that rate, you are down your utility, 3 creatures, a non token creature, and they know you needed something from the yard. I don't think they'd actually care to see what you try to get back, trying to get her gives them more than enough information to fear her.

If your opponent has an active counter it doesn't really matter what your DR is targeting. The only argument I can see here is that Daze becomes slightly better against you.

Whether or not you choose to run Witness is up to you, but as two of the best Legacy players independantly stated after I beat them with it, "It can do everything that Sage does, and does a hell of a lot more."

Here is just a partial list of the plays I have actually made in tournaments with Witness:

Retrieve Breakthrough to play with either a land or LED already in play.
Retrieve Coliseum to play with a land in play and vice-versa.
Retrieve Coliseum to play with an LED in play.
Retrieve LED to pay for DA.
Retrieve LED to pay for Ghostly Prison.
Retrieve LED to pay for a Dread Return through a 3Sphere I knew would be played the following turn when I couldn't win that turn.
Retrieve PImp to fly in for the win.
Retrieve Unmask to force through a Dread Returns with no mana available.
Retrieve Chain, Firestorm, and Needle to either win, or seal a win in following turns.
Return Dread Return, GGT, and Stinkweed with an LED in play to be hardcast when the extra 2/1 body, or extra tokens from his sacrifice made the difference in the win.
Return Dread Return to be hardcast in a 40 minute game when I had four lands in play.
And of course, swung for the win.

Wow.. Parcher, you've just convinced me.

All that Sage has ever done for me is:

-Win the game now instead of next turn

I love how EW is a way of accessing more of your sideboard cards.

I found that substituting the CS for a Witness helps me so much more in games since the cards in the grave yard without flashback/dredge aren't really just blanks anymore. And of course, getting sideboard cards really make the 2nd/3rd games easier.

Has anybody got a list of EW IChorid combo?

I might give it a go...

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Originally Posted by Dosan_the_Wisest_Leaf

Has anybody got a list of EW IChorid combo?

I might give it a go...

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Parcher mentioned these two lists in his tournament report:

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Originally Posted by Parcher

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Eternal Witness
1 Flame Kin Zealot

4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Unmask
3 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis

4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle
4 Reverent Silence
2 Darkblast
1 Bayou


And

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Eternal Witness
1 Flame Kin Zealot

4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Unmask
3 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis

4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle
3 Firestorm
3 Wax/Wane
1 Unmask

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But if you don't want to copy paste, take whatever Ichorid list you're playing and replace the Sage with an EW.

Now that I see your list again Parcher, how do you justify running only three Coliseums?

Sage + witness is not possible?? I mean playing with 2 returns.
Is witness more versatile than sage?? Why none one considered her until now then??

I think tha CS is slightly bigger (but i don't know why) when you are playing the combo manaless after activating LED. So you'll say, well just retrieve LED to cast a deep analysis. Yes. But bringing back LED requires an spell. So you bring EW and then LED. And LED is countereable and stifleable just like EW ability. 2 stifle targets and 1 counter target.
If if had a counter in hand and my opponent is running the combo manaless i would not counter return to EW i would counter the spell retrieved otherwise it will be stifle to LED. Result = some tokens and EW and end my turn.
With sage is a bit different. The difference is one spell: the retrived one which ot exist here. Off course i had a counter i would counter the DR to sage but stifle will be to sage now. 1 Stifle targed and 1 counter target. Chan!!!
It's such a question.

The comes-in-to-play triggers of both Cephalid Sage and Eternal Witness are vulnerable to Stifle.

Lion's Eye Diamond, however, is not at all. Stifle cannot counter mana abilies.


How often do you actually play unprotected Dread Returns, anyway?

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Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely

Lion's Eye Diamond, however, is not at all. Stifle cannot counter mana abilies.

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You are right, my bad. It's a draw so??
However i still think that sage is better. If there's no stifle and no couter, in a manaless combo (after activating LED) you will draw 3 cards.
With EW you will retrieve LED but you need deep analisys to draw only 2 cards. It's my opinon.

I brought up EW for the first time (I think--LMK if I'm wrong) back on page 75/6. People were sceptical at first, but it's proven to be more efficient and versatile than Sage. While Sage works for the combo, EW doe that and grabs back disruption/land/etc. Parcher listed a whole bunch of things he's actually done in games with E. Witness that Sage is simply not capable of.

2 cards is a dredge of 12. That should be more than sufficient.

It should be noted that I recommend 3x Dread Return in a list with EW. That's just me. Oh, I guess so does Parcher (at least his lists below show 3x in each).

Pce,

--DC

I have tried running 4 Coliseums, first when I picked up the deck, and again last week. It isn't worth it. For the rare times you get an extra use of it, you get color screwed five times over. If I was to add another land, it would likely be an Undiscovered.

And I don't understand how people are complaining that Witness makes a Dread Returns more vulnerable. Between Unmask and Therapy, this should rarely be a concern, and even if it is, so what? You have to force your opponent to deal with your threats with this deck, and not the other way around. This is why I keep evolving it, to make every card a threat, and not just an answer.

In one situation, I was certain my opponent had countermagic, I had no Therapy, and no mana. I had both Sage and FKZ in the yard with two Dread. So, I cast DR and paused. He asked, "Targeting?", and I told him Witness, which he let resolve, obviously watching for FKZ. I returned Unmask, took his Force, and Returned FKZ for the win.

Of course that is likely a unique situation, but you have to explore all the options available with this deck; especially with Witness. I fear people play on auto-pilot too often.

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

You are right, my bad. It's a draw so??
However i still think that sage is better. If there's no stifle and no couter, in a manaless combo (after activating LED) you will draw 3 cards.
With EW you will retrieve LED but you need deep analisys to draw only 2 cards. It's my opinon.

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You have to look further than this, Ichorid is not only about game 1. Witness can actually stay in with a DR to return a Chain or Pithing Needle that you would normally so uselessly Dredge away if not in your opening7.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

I have tried running 4 Coliseums, first when I picked up the deck, and again last week. It isn't worth it. For the rare times you get an extra use of it, you get color screwed five times over. If I was to add another land, it would likely be an Undiscovered.

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But you don't run Undiscovered in the bottom list, so how would [X lands + 1 Blue] give more colour screw than [X lands]?
Do you feel you really need the third DR? Have you ever cast the third? Did you have trouble Dredging into it?
I read someone mention EW needs 3 DR where CS only needs 2, is that because Witness is more of a utility thing while CS is solely to fuel the combo?

You do want the third DR for use with Witness for that very reason. Witness rarely wins you the game on it's own, but it puts you in a position to. The other DRs win the game for you. I still usually side one out, but it goes along with either Witness or FKZ in situations where you won't need one or the other. For instance, Goblins rarely allow you to combo out in one turn due to their infinite ways to remove Bridges. I take out FKZ in those cases since the extra turn and damage points are rarely relevant.

I see your point on the land question, but I find that I keep hands that are marginal with a Coliseum when I shouldn't. Like keping one with Breakthrough and PImp against a deck with Crypt. The hand is awesome if you have a Rainbow since you can bait with PImp, and use Breakthrough after your first dredge if they don't have it. If you fail to go off with the Breakthrough due to you not being able to play PImp and they top a Crypt you just lose.

I'm testing the 12th land in the SB, but it involves other changes that I am uncertain of. I know it is better games 2 and 3 due to you needing a Rainbow more, but finding the room both SB and main, in addition to my removing the last of the passive SB cards is still in the trial stages.

I've kept the Coliseums in, but did a two-two split with PImp and Hapless Researchers for color reasons, as PImp is about the only spell that needs black (Therapy doesn't always need to be cast).

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Originally Posted by georgjorge

I've kept the Coliseums in, but did a two-two split with PImp and Hapless Researchers for color reasons, as PImp is about the only spell that needs black (Therapy doesn't always need to be cast).

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4 Leyline
4 Chain
3 Needle
4 Chalice

My new board if anyone cares.. I've already noticed people stuffing the stupid Shards crypt card into every board. I don't think the Rays are needed anymore. Use of Leyline has dropped to the mirror matches. Needle now has room alongside Chalice.

Why is Eternal Witness being brought up.. It doesn't matter that it can return an LED. If you could DR a Witness you obviously already started to combo off. If you even resolved the DR then you don't need the Witness to return hand hate. Chances are Unmask can't be played since you may not have a hand (Breakthrough, LED).

There are many more times where the Sage would dredge enough to steal the game than Witness would return a game breaker.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

For instance, Goblins rarely allow you to combo out in one turn due to their infinite ways to remove Bridges. I take out FKZ in those cases since the extra turn and damage points are rarely relevant.

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What do you reanimate to win in this cases??

I think the choice would be Chosen, as aggro is where it's most useful. First Striking 4/4. However, game one I would think that it would be a Grave-Troll. Regenerating Fattie that blocks X/2 Drivers while it stays up you keep swinging until you can clear the defenses for a hit or two with a decent-sized Troll.

Game two it's Chosen for the first DR along with Ichorid beats unless you get a god-draw, try getting Trolls on the table as they do well imo.

This is just the strategy I've used in the few matches I've played vs. Goblins. Goblins aren't big here.

Pce,

--DC

@GoldenCid:

I almost always leave at least one DR in just to grab a fatty Troll, even if I side out the usual DR targets.

@Bane of the Living:

Witness has really stood out in being able to return Firestorm (which as been awesome for me coming out of the board) and Chain of Vapor. The fact that you can also get back Breakthrough is what makes her a reasonable substitute for Sage in the first place.

There are definitely many times when playing Sage lets you dredge more in one turn, but that's irrelevant if you need to bounce a Moat or Propaganda (especially given a board like yours with no enchantment hate).

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Originally Posted by sunshine

Witness has really stood out in being able to return Firestorm (which as been awesome for me coming out of the board) and Chain of Vapor. The fact that you can also get back Breakthrough is what makes her a reasonable substitute for Sage in the first place.

There are definitely many times when playing Sage lets you dredge more in one turn, but that's irrelevant if you need to bounce a Moat or Propaganda (especially given a board like yours with no enchantment hate).

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Just started playing ichorid here, so I might not actually see all the subtle aspects of your choice. I'm wondering though, how often do you need firestorm once you are already able to use DR? I thought the card was meant mainly to protect your bridges before starting to dredge too heavily, or as a removal against random stuff like yixlid jailer or samurai of the pale curtain (so in 95% of cases, before you can actually play DR). Same thing goes for chain of vapor. If you really want an out against moat/propaganda mid-combo with DR, why not play wispmare in the SB (which also gives you one more answer to LLotV)?

wow, took me almost a whole week reading everyones discussion on this deck starting from page 1. I was curious hat this deck was as I've never seen it, and when I used magic work station to play around with it I find it to be pretty interesting. I've also ordered the deck and waiting for the cards to arrive, but I've a few questions to those thats more expereinced with the deck, all I have been doing is just play testing for 40+ games on MWS, can't really call that experience =/.

But anyways, I am still waiting for my deck and a bunch of other cards I may find some use later, to come by. But currently heres what I have in mind.

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Eternal Witness

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid

4 Breakthrough
3 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return

4 Cabal Therapy

Just the basic structure. Though I am a bit lost between the whole Eternal Witness vs Cephalid Sage, and the Street Wraith argument. Everyone sure brings up some good points.

My question though, if anyone can help me out. How do you pressure your opponent to blowing up his crypt, who is waiting for you to fill up your graveyard with more cards... and he can be... very very patient.... :frown:
Which is a friend of mine I play test with at one time online that uses the classic UW Landstill build. He sits there and waits for me to fill up on my graveyard before blowing up his crypt, and he is very patient about it... which makes me more impatient :tongue:.

Are there certain conditions you should meet before pressuring with ichorids? like trying to get 1 bridge in graveyard first? Or an Imp to be casted to join ichorid in attacking. Should I try to achieve ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh? The one game I played him I had 1 ichorid I was bringing back and forth with 1 bridge in the yard, and he is sitting there with a crypt, crucible of worlds and cump blocking with factories. That time I ran out quickly of food for ichorid.

I know I am pretty noobish, but I had no idea what to do to presure the landstill player to crack the tormod's crypt. I was worried if I go all out with draw/dredge he nukes my graveyard.

I am new to this deck, and was hoping I can get some advise on how you guys go about pressuring someone (whose very patient) to cracking his crypt, especially landstill player.

Thank you.

Crypt baiting basically comes down to putting things in there that will kill him if he does nothing and will slowly progress your dredging, while at the same time your hand contains cards that will get you right back in. I usually harrass my opponent something along the lines of: attack with a lonely recurring Ichorid and a Bridge, while dredging a Thug, and playing and flashbacking Therapies while I can. Try to play the game but at a slower pace.
If your opponent plays a gazillion cantrips, or can search out Crypts, or can make it recurring (through Academy Ruins for example) you may want to be more aggressive; dredging faster to force him to use it, but always have some backup left in your hand! Otherwise you're in topdeck and that's a pain in Ichorid.
A Crypt or two with a good clock on your opponents side is usually very difficult to deal with though. But I've won games wherein my opponent succesfully activated three crypts. Remember that Putrid Imp is MVP, so is having two dredgers in your hand (so you get to keep one), hold on to Bridges if they're in your hand, etc.
What I noticed is that a lot of people don't even know when to blow up the crypt, but you shouldn't rely on that.

To disagree with a lot of people, I think Landstill is not such a great MU. They have multiple ways of dealing with your aggression and the slower you play them the more time you give them to set it up.

On the Ichorid recursion, I bring them back whenever it is beneficial for the game state. I won't bring it back if my opponent has a Propaghanda in play and I don't have the mana nor a Bridge in my yard. I'm also hesitant to recur it when it eats away my last dredger (which I usually try to avoid because Dredging hits more food).
Basically, Ichorid is awesome because he deals damage, is food for Therapy and Dread Return and makes tokens.
The situation you mentioned with the Factory, Crucible and Crypt is a difficult one though! It makes Ichorid underwhelming at the least. There're no conditions you have to meet before recurring Ichorids, just don't do it when it doesn't make sense to do it :)

In the case you mentioned with Factory, Cruicible and Crypt, if they have crypt doesn't that mean it's postboard so you would probably have chain of vapor / pithing needle? If you can stall long enough with Ichorid recursion and play either one they would have to sac the crypt. Or you can go with the strategy the guy above me mentioned if you don't have them in your hand.

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Originally Posted by Maëlig

Just started playing ichorid here, so I might not actually see all the subtle aspects of your choice. I'm wondering though, how often do you need firestorm once you are already able to use DR? I thought the card was meant mainly to protect your bridges before starting to dredge too heavily, or as a removal against random stuff like yixlid jailer or samurai of the pale curtain (so in 95% of cases, before you can actually play DR). Same thing goes for chain of vapor. If you really want an out against moat/propaganda mid-combo with DR, why not play wispmare in the SB (which also gives you one more answer to LLotV)?

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Remember, the second most important aspect of Firestorm is that is can go to the dome. Especially since virtually no deck can completely stop Ichorid from dealing some damage. Also, swarm decks like Goblins and Elves can be troublesome because (among other reasons) they can produce enough creatures to consistantly block, and evasion is at a premium in this deck.

Wispmare is only excluded due to his sorcery speed. Against decks with discard and counters, the flexiblilty is simply more generically useful than the body+returnability of Wispmare. I run three enchantment removal spells plus bounce, but mostly for Leyline. Properly played, this deck can win through most hampering enchantments, but not a pre-game Leyline. While it is true that most decks are realizing that they cannot properly support a mulligan to Leyline, if they land it and you cannot answer immediately and through whatever disruption they can muster in addition to it, this is the one card you cannot with through. Plan accordingly.

How do you guys sideboard against Landstill on the draw ? I know I want to bring in Unmask, Tolarian Winds and Ray + Riftstone Portal. I'm thinking about taking out LED (because of Force) and Street Wraiths...I don't play Return, so I can't take that out ; )

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Originally Posted by Zappa

wow, took me almost a whole week reading everyones discussion on this deck starting from page 1

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Good job, I am sure it helped you. Last weekend I entered an Ext. tournament with Ichorid - I goldfished it 200x and played 2/3sb once. Still I took 9th place out of 84..
It is really hard to play the deck on the MWS, because MWS is made to test Magic decks.. which Ichorid is not :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Zappa

I was curious that this deck was as I've never seen it, and when I used magic work station to play around with it I find it to be pretty interesting.

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See above... :smile:

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Originally Posted by Zappa

*Decklist*

Just the basic structure. Though I am a bit lost between the whole Eternal Witness vs Cephalid Sage, and the Street Wraith argument. Everyone sure brings up some good points.

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Take out one Thug and try the Sage...

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Originally Posted by Zappa

My question though, if anyone can help me out. How do you pressure your opponent to blowing up his crypt, who is waiting for you to fill up your graveyard with more cards... and he can be... very very patient.... :frown:

...

I know I am pretty noobish...

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Oops.. not a noobish question, but rather a little bit hard..
First: Sometimes it is better to let the Ichorids lay in the GY, as they are harder to stop when they come in waves. You often find yourself in situations, when you need to make one or two dredges before skipping out, because opponent removed your Bridges recently.

OTOH, sometimes it is good to revive Ichorid even without BfB in GY and even if it could be blocked - e.g. you need it to sac for Therapy or DReturn. These situations are hard to specify in vacuum - this is where you must follow your experiences.

This is where we are getting near to your "how-to-crack-crypt" question.. See, you need to find the best speed with which you pilot the deck against Crypt. E.g. - you must keep opponent under pressure with Ichorids (and Moebas, PImps, whatever.., but mostly with Ichos) but in the meanwhile you cannot overextend, because he could easily remove most of your wincons by single Crypt.
This means that you need to dredge to continously find the fodder for Ichos. You may even interlace the Therapies somewhere, esp. if one or two Bridges are present. This will finally force him to crack the Crypt and by this time you may try go berserk with all those Breakthroughs, Deep Anals and DReturns...

The trick (how to force the Crypt to sac) is to keep your position a little bit better then that of your opponent.. but not m u c h stronger... because much stronger position means: lot of Ichorids cyclically coming outta graveyard, many Bridges in GY, lots of targets for DReturn, etc.. in short - giant GY... which is easily stopped by exactly that Crypt you fear...

Again, not that easy to answer this hypotheticaly - each game is different. (although I talk about Extended experience...)

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Originally Posted by Zappa

The one game I played him I had 1 Ichorid I was bringing back and forth with 1 Bridge in the yard, and he is sitting there with a Crypt, Crucible of Worlds and chump blocking with factories. That time I ran out quickly of food for ichorid.

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BTW, this removed your Bridge, AFAIK...

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Originally Posted by Zappa

Thank you.

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You´re welcome.

at all: Tear me apart, if anything I wrote is wrong.. :tongue:

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by GoldenCid

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Originally Posted by Parcher

Goblins rarely allow you to combo out in one turn due to their infinite ways to remove Bridges. I take out FKZ in those cases since the extra turn and damage points are rarely relevant.

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What do you reanimate to win in this cases??

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No one sides Wonder anymore against hordes? :confused:

Most of us use rainbow lands which doesn't allow for us to play Wonder.

Pce,

--DC

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Originally Posted by Maëlig

Just started playing ichorid here, so I might not actually see all the subtle aspects of your choice. I'm wondering though, how often do you need firestorm once you are already able to use DR? I thought the card was meant mainly to protect your bridges before starting to dredge too heavily, or as a removal against random stuff like yixlid jailer or samurai of the pale curtain (so in 95% of cases, before you can actually play DR).

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Firestorm is good at fulfilling the role you mentioned. It is also great at going to the dome for the last 3-7+ points of damage(mentioned above). Against decks like Goblins though you can't always rely on getting any use out of your Bridges at all and you're only route to victory is Ichorid beats and DRing a Troll. Firestorm really helps to keep the Goblin swarm in check and clear the way for your Ichorids (as well as providing an additional discard outlet).

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Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

Most of us use rainbow lands which doesn't allow for us to play Wonder.

Pce,

--DC

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Oops.. I have totally forgotten :laugh:

Ext is much more different.. or better said: "was"...

Thank you for the response. Unfortunately I cannot add anything to the discussion until my deck arrives and I get a chance to play test it against real people, instead of solo play at MWS.

I haven't played this deck in a few months, but I like to start playing it again.
The Unmasks + Witness sounds really good, this is the list I'm going to test:

creature [25]
1 Eternal Witness
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

sorcery [16]
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
2 Unmask

enchantment [4]
4 Bridge from Below

artifact [4]
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

land [11]
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard:
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle
1 CotV
2 Unmask
1 Akroma, AoW
1 Abeyance (Against Enchantress/Staxx/heavy permanent-control decks -> Return with Witness) *
2 Slots (E Truth/Firestorm/More CotV/Wax // Wane/?)

*I dont need Ray/Grudge because of this one


I never played leyline in my board, because I dont see the mirror enough to include it, and against decks with Fanatic (Goblins) and affinity you also want to board in 4Chain of Vapor/4Pithing Needle. Boarding out 8 cards is really bad for your speed, and thats not good against fast-aggro decks. I have Akroma + Ichorid beats when the Bridges are gonne..

Does someone who has more experience with a Unmask+Witness-list has some tips for it?

In last lists if didn't see copies of careful study. Do you think that it doesn't worth?

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Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ

Does someone who has more experience with a Unmask+Witness-list has some tips for it?

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Yeah, the Firestorms are better in aggro matchups. They can speed up your game and your clock, and as far as I know (clarification?) they allow you to discard cards even if it gets countered. That's important imo. It can wipe out your own Eternal Witness to reanimate it again also. I don't play akroma (even Reanimator doesn't use her any more. If you want a good beater then go with Simic Sky Swallower), I use Ancestor's Chosen in my board, as it's useful in many situations. If you get the right dredges (and this isn't a downside, hell, it's the way the entire list is), you can DR it to get out of Tendrils range, it's a 4/4 first striker, and it's really decent for the long game. Not SSS or Akroma, but it's nothing to sneeze at along with an army of Horrors and Zombies...

Unmask is for the Control matchup, where it's important to get the combo through before you get into the long game where most control decks thrive. The longer you wait to win, the more answers they draw, and the more likely you are to lose. Unmask paired with Cabal Therapy help aleviate this. Oh, you can go Therapy, DR Witness grabbing Therapy, Therapy again, and then flash it back sacking Witness.

I will probably never use Sage again. Or Leyline. I hated Leyline anyway; it was so damn clunky.

I'm not sure about the whole Careful Study; I hadn't noticed that some lists had dropped it...:confused:

You can drop Careful Studies game two in favor of Firestorms; as they serve the same purpose imo. They are a tad slower, but they get the job done and get some damage in as well.

SBing...Herm. I'll get back with you on that, I'm really too tired to address it right now. Parcher would probably know better than I would. I play against a lot more combo than anything, so SBing isn't exactly my fort'e.

Pce,

--DC

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Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

Yeah, the Firestorms are better in aggro matchups. They can speed up your game and your clock, and as far as I know (clarification?)

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Yes, the discard is part of the cost.

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Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87

Unmask is for the Control matchup, where it's important to get the combo through before you get into the long game where most control decks thrive.

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hmmm... I almost invariably side out the combo in a control match up. The Unmasks are great for stripping countermagic from the opponents hand, but their importance in the otherwise horrible combo match up should not be overlooked either.

I suppose it depends which control-type you are talking about. There are prison lists which I tend to go hard into for the combo quickly, and blue control that I side out the combo. That's how I play it. I sideboard in my 3rd Unmask against both. Against Blue control I side in Firestorm as it's an "uncounterable" discard spell, getting through both Chalice and CB and everything else, even if it is countered, you still get the discard. Against Prison lists I side in Chain of Vapors as well for graveyard hate, but I leave the combo in. I might be doing it wrong, but I don't have a lot of experience in the control match. Plus, it's worked for me.

Suppose I should have clarified this.

Pce,

--DC

Can you cast breakthrough for a blue, then sac lions eye diamond to pay for 3 mana of its x value? I'm pretty sure you can't, but I just want to make sure.

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Originally Posted by T-ORGANIZER

Can you cast breakthrough for a blue, then sac lions eye diamond to pay for 3 mana of its x value? I'm pretty sure you can't, but I just want to make sure.

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No you can`t. You can`t use the mana derived from led to cast break they are two different and separated things. If you wish you can play break for 1 and respond sacrifing led and at the end of the process you discard your whole hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by T-ORGANIZER

Can you cast breakthrough for a blue, then sac lions eye diamond to pay for 3 mana of its x value? I'm pretty sure you can't, but I just want to make sure.

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No. You announce the X value when you announce the spell, then must pay all costs to pay that Breakthrough for X, before you can sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond for mana. After the spell is paid for and on the stack, however, you can sac the LED to pay for anything that happens post-breakthrough.

I'm not sure I understand the necessity of Dread Returns at all (if that has already been discussed at length, maybe some-one can point me to the relevant pages). It seems like it works if I already have nearly half my deck in the yard, at which point I'm in a pretty good position anyway.

Of course I can imagine situations in which DR will win me the game while "normal" beatdown with Zombies and Ichorids won't, but do those situations really come up that often that they are worth sacrificing four or five slots for cards which neither discard a dredger, draw cards, or have Dredge ? In theory, I'd think those situations could mostly come up against Landstill, combo and maybe Goblins, but I can't think of much else...