[Deck] Ichorid

[Kuma]

I think the biggest problem with Eternal Witness is if you don't have mana, it's nearly useless (LED?). Since we usually only have 1-2 lands in play, some of which only make blue mana, it wouldn't be hard for a single Wasteland to make Witness dead.

I'm all about trading explosiveness for utility, since I don't think Ichorid is as fast as advertised and needs a little staying power, but Witness is risky. Still, worst case scenario they'll counter what you get back instead of the Dread Return, so at least you get a non-token creature out of it.

I could see it being good in low land destruction metas.

[DeathwingZERO]

I think the opponent would be far more likely to just counter the DR knowing it's targeting her. At that rate, you are down your utility, 3 creatures, a non token creature, and they know you needed something from the yard. I don't think they'd actually care to see what you try to get back, trying to get her gives them more than enough information to fear her.

[sunshine]

If your opponent has an active counter it doesn't really matter what your DR is targeting. The only argument I can see here is that Daze becomes slightly better against you.

[Parcher]

Whether or not you choose to run Witness is up to you, but as two of the best Legacy players independantly stated after I beat them with it, "It can do everything that Sage does, and does a hell of a lot more."

Here is just a partial list of the plays I have actually made in tournaments with Witness:

Retrieve Breakthrough to play with either a land or LED already in play.
Retrieve Coliseum to play with a land in play and vice-versa.
Retrieve Coliseum to play with an LED in play.
Retrieve LED to pay for DA.
Retrieve LED to pay for Ghostly Prison.
Retrieve LED to pay for a Dread Return through a 3Sphere I knew would be played the following turn when I couldn't win that turn.
Retrieve PImp to fly in for the win.
Retrieve Unmask to force through a Dread Returns with no mana available.
Retrieve Chain, Firestorm, and Needle to either win, or seal a win in following turns.
Return Dread Return, GGT, and Stinkweed with an LED in play to be hardcast when the extra 2/1 body, or extra tokens from his sacrifice made the difference in the win.
Return Dread Return to be hardcast in a 40 minute game when I had four lands in play.
And of course, swung for the win.

[Mayk0l]

Wow.. Parcher, you've just convinced me.

All that Sage has ever done for me is:

-Win the game now instead of next turn

I love how EW is a way of accessing more of your sideboard cards.

[whitshadw8]

I found that substituting the CS for a Witness helps me so much more in games since the cards in the grave yard without flashback/dredge aren't really just blanks anymore. And of course, getting sideboard cards really make the 2nd/3rd games easier.

[Dosan_the_Wisest_Leaf]

Has anybody got a list of EW IChorid combo?

I might give it a go...

[Mayk0l]

Has anybody got a list of EW IChorid combo?

I might give it a go...

Parcher mentioned these two lists in his tournament report:

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Eternal Witness
1 Flame Kin Zealot

4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Unmask
3 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis

4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle
4 Reverent Silence
2 Darkblast
1 Bayou


And

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Eternal Witness
1 Flame Kin Zealot

4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Unmask
3 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis

4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle
3 Firestorm
3 Wax/Wane
1 Unmask

But if you don't want to copy paste, take whatever Ichorid list you're playing and replace the Sage with an EW.

Now that I see your list again Parcher, how do you justify running only three Coliseums?

[GoldenCid]

Sage + witness is not possible?? I mean playing with 2 returns.
Is witness more versatile than sage?? Why none one considered her until now then??

I think tha CS is slightly bigger (but i don't know why) when you are playing the combo manaless after activating LED. So you'll say, well just retrieve LED to cast a deep analysis. Yes. But bringing back LED requires an spell. So you bring EW and then LED. And LED is countereable and stifleable just like EW ability. 2 stifle targets and 1 counter target.
If if had a counter in hand and my opponent is running the combo manaless i would not counter return to EW i would counter the spell retrieved otherwise it will be stifle to LED. Result = some tokens and EW and end my turn.
With sage is a bit different. The difference is one spell: the retrived one which ot exist here. Off course i had a counter i would counter the DR to sage but stifle will be to sage now. 1 Stifle targed and 1 counter target. Chan!!!
It's such a question.

[Obfuscate Freely]

The comes-in-to-play triggers of both Cephalid Sage and Eternal Witness are vulnerable to Stifle.

Lion's Eye Diamond, however, is not at all. Stifle cannot counter mana abilies.


How often do you actually play unprotected Dread Returns, anyway?

[GoldenCid]

Lion's Eye Diamond, however, is not at all. Stifle cannot counter mana abilies.

You are right, my bad. It's a draw so??
However i still think that sage is better. If there's no stifle and no couter, in a manaless combo (after activating LED) you will draw 3 cards.
With EW you will retrieve LED but you need deep analisys to draw only 2 cards. It's my opinon.

[Dark_Cynic87]

I brought up EW for the first time (I think--LMK if I'm wrong) back on page 75/6. People were sceptical at first, but it's proven to be more efficient and versatile than Sage. While Sage works for the combo, EW doe that and grabs back disruption/land/etc. Parcher listed a whole bunch of things he's actually done in games with E. Witness that Sage is simply not capable of.

2 cards is a dredge of 12. That should be more than sufficient.

It should be noted that I recommend 3x Dread Return in a list with EW. That's just me. Oh, I guess so does Parcher (at least his lists below show 3x in each).

Pce,

--DC

[Parcher]

I have tried running 4 Coliseums, first when I picked up the deck, and again last week. It isn't worth it. For the rare times you get an extra use of it, you get color screwed five times over. If I was to add another land, it would likely be an Undiscovered.

And I don't understand how people are complaining that Witness makes a Dread Returns more vulnerable. Between Unmask and Therapy, this should rarely be a concern, and even if it is, so what? You have to force your opponent to deal with your threats with this deck, and not the other way around. This is why I keep evolving it, to make every card a threat, and not just an answer.

In one situation, I was certain my opponent had countermagic, I had no Therapy, and no mana. I had both Sage and FKZ in the yard with two Dread. So, I cast DR and paused. He asked, "Targeting?", and I told him Witness, which he let resolve, obviously watching for FKZ. I returned Unmask, took his Force, and Returned FKZ for the win.

Of course that is likely a unique situation, but you have to explore all the options available with this deck; especially with Witness. I fear people play on auto-pilot too often.

[Mayk0l]

You are right, my bad. It's a draw so??
However i still think that sage is better. If there's no stifle and no couter, in a manaless combo (after activating LED) you will draw 3 cards.
With EW you will retrieve LED but you need deep analisys to draw only 2 cards. It's my opinon.

You have to look further than this, Ichorid is not only about game 1. Witness can actually stay in with a DR to return a Chain or Pithing Needle that you would normally so uselessly Dredge away if not in your opening7.

I have tried running 4 Coliseums, first when I picked up the deck, and again last week. It isn't worth it. For the rare times you get an extra use of it, you get color screwed five times over. If I was to add another land, it would likely be an Undiscovered.

But you don't run Undiscovered in the bottom list, so how would [X lands + 1 Blue] give more colour screw than [X lands]?
Do you feel you really need the third DR? Have you ever cast the third? Did you have trouble Dredging into it?
I read someone mention EW needs 3 DR where CS only needs 2, is that because Witness is more of a utility thing while CS is solely to fuel the combo?

[Parcher]

You do want the third DR for use with Witness for that very reason. Witness rarely wins you the game on it's own, but it puts you in a position to. The other DRs win the game for you. I still usually side one out, but it goes along with either Witness or FKZ in situations where you won't need one or the other. For instance, Goblins rarely allow you to combo out in one turn due to their infinite ways to remove Bridges. I take out FKZ in those cases since the extra turn and damage points are rarely relevant.

I see your point on the land question, but I find that I keep hands that are marginal with a Coliseum when I shouldn't. Like keping one with Breakthrough and PImp against a deck with Crypt. The hand is awesome if you have a Rainbow since you can bait with PImp, and use Breakthrough after your first dredge if they don't have it. If you fail to go off with the Breakthrough due to you not being able to play PImp and they top a Crypt you just lose.

I'm testing the 12th land in the SB, but it involves other changes that I am uncertain of. I know it is better games 2 and 3 due to you needing a Rainbow more, but finding the room both SB and main, in addition to my removing the last of the passive SB cards is still in the trial stages.

[georgjorge]

I've kept the Coliseums in, but did a two-two split with PImp and Hapless Researchers for color reasons, as PImp is about the only spell that needs black (Therapy doesn't always need to be cast).

[Bane of the Living]

I've kept the Coliseums in, but did a two-two split with PImp and Hapless Researchers for color reasons, as PImp is about the only spell that needs black (Therapy doesn't always need to be cast).

4 Leyline
4 Chain
3 Needle
4 Chalice

My new board if anyone cares.. I've already noticed people stuffing the stupid Shards crypt card into every board. I don't think the Rays are needed anymore. Use of Leyline has dropped to the mirror matches. Needle now has room alongside Chalice.

Why is Eternal Witness being brought up.. It doesn't matter that it can return an LED. If you could DR a Witness you obviously already started to combo off. If you even resolved the DR then you don't need the Witness to return hand hate. Chances are Unmask can't be played since you may not have a hand (Breakthrough, LED).

There are many more times where the Sage would dredge enough to steal the game than Witness would return a game breaker.

[GoldenCid]

For instance, Goblins rarely allow you to combo out in one turn due to their infinite ways to remove Bridges. I take out FKZ in those cases since the extra turn and damage points are rarely relevant.

What do you reanimate to win in this cases??

[Dark_Cynic87]

I think the choice would be Chosen, as aggro is where it's most useful. First Striking 4/4. However, game one I would think that it would be a Grave-Troll. Regenerating Fattie that blocks X/2 Drivers while it stays up you keep swinging until you can clear the defenses for a hit or two with a decent-sized Troll.

Game two it's Chosen for the first DR along with Ichorid beats unless you get a god-draw, try getting Trolls on the table as they do well imo.

This is just the strategy I've used in the few matches I've played vs. Goblins. Goblins aren't big here.

Pce,

--DC

[sunshine]

@GoldenCid:

I almost always leave at least one DR in just to grab a fatty Troll, even if I side out the usual DR targets.

@Bane of the Living:

Witness has really stood out in being able to return Firestorm (which as been awesome for me coming out of the board) and Chain of Vapor. The fact that you can also get back Breakthrough is what makes her a reasonable substitute for Sage in the first place.

There are definitely many times when playing Sage lets you dredge more in one turn, but that's irrelevant if you need to bounce a Moat or Propaganda (especially given a board like yours with no enchantment hate).