[Deck] Pox

Here's what I'd like to test with. Card choice notes and sideboard opinions are listed after the deck:
4 x Pox
4 x Smallpox
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Duress
4 x Sinkhole
4 x Funeral Charm
3 x Nether Spirit
3 x Tombstalker
3 x Powder Keg
2 x Crucible of Worlds
35 spells

4 x Wasteland
3 x Mishra’s Factory
3 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
15 x Swamp
25 land

Card Choices
Dark Ritual -- While not in the deck, it's worth to note why I didn't include it. The potential for first turn explosive plays is limited in this deck. The potential to use it to "recover" from a Pox is limited, since it'll be costing you card advantage in the bargain. Testing will show whether it's too slow without it.

Wasteland -- Must run this. More LD is great.

Tombstalker/Nether Spirit/Factory -- Win conditions. The factories are there in order to hedge against the chance Tombstalker interferes with Spirit's recursion. I don't believe in Phyrexian Totem, and could replace the Tombstalkers for Chimeric Totems easily.

Hymn/Duress -- Discard is great in Pox

Funeral Charm -- Interesting little card, and one of the more versatile in the deck. Note that it is synergy with Tomb of Yawgmoth, in that it can make a creature Swampwalk over. It's disruption, instant speed creature kill (for little stuff) and so forth. Nice card, IMO.

Sinkhole -- I wish I didn't have to run Sinkhole, but no other black LD comes close to this good. Must have.

Pox/Smallpox -- Core. Must have both, in most matches.

Powder Keg -- If you need it, you need it at once. It's a great reset for gangs of Goblins or Slivers or whatever.

Crucible of Worlds -- Wasteland recursion is the least of the goodness here. It also allows swamp recursion and Pox recovery. Might go up to three on these.

Sideboard
It's too much metagame dependent, but I'd think Bottle Gnomes might be a good side in to replace Pox against Burn. Gain a little life, get a blocker out there.

I'd want the fourth Keg in the side, along with some graveyard hate. Leyline of the Void would be great, I'd think. Potential to get it on table before turn 1 is huge.

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth -- Turning all your lands black is nice, with the Mishra's and the Wastelands. Worth including.

Comments welcome. Not interested in splashing white or green, though those are both very strong choices.

Seriously? I take a vacation from magic and when I come back, my fav. archetype hasn't even been looked at?

Ok, to spur you guys forward, let's talk SB.
We have a couple of options here (possibly more, but bear with me here...)

Infest - Good ol' glory days. This guy helps vs. tribal (excluding merfolk), don't think it's the best option but it's certainly better than single or single targeted removal.

Massacre/Spinning Darkness - These are tricky, massacre looks cool but when would you ever play it? Spinning Darkness has more promise and if you take out tombstalker it can lower your curve, immunize you to Chalice, and provide help against tribal. Still, you've gotta board out goyf...

Maze of Ith/Tabernacle - the two most commonly boarded lands. I lean towards Tabernacle because it helps more vs. swarms and has more synergy with Urborg.

Engineered Plague/Sun Droplet/Do or Die - ok, yeah two of these are basically introduced by me and supported by me, but they all serve basically the same purpuse... stopping tribal/swarms.

Extirpate - some people board this card in against dredge, but to me that seems like a waste because of how useless this card is and continues to be in terms of getting what you want it to do out of it.

Pithing Needle - tech against everything, I find it to be a waste unless the person has played pox for a long time, and knows the meta inside and out.

Dystopia - cutting edge in terms of killing 'goyf while also killing other permanent based control builds such as Quinn and Enchantress.

Chains of Mephistopheles - very limited but very powerful tech vs. cantrip based aggro control that you see running around these days.

Damnation/Haunting Echoes - Unfortunately you probably won't reach this kind of mana while retaining the use of these cards.

So waddya think?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bowvamp

Infest - Good ol' glory days. This guy helps vs. tribal (excluding merfolk), don't think it's the best option but it's certainly better than single or single targeted removal.

Massacre/Spinning Darkness - These are tricky, massacre looks cool but when would you ever play it? Spinning Darkness has more promise and if you take out tombstalker it can lower your curve, immunize you to Chalice, and provide help against tribal. Still, you've gotta board out goyf...

Maze of Ith/Tabernacle - the two most commonly boarded lands. I lean towards Tabernacle because it helps more vs. swarms and has more synergy with Urborg.

Engineered Plague/Sun Droplet/Do or Die - ok, yeah two of these are basically introduced by me and supported by me, but they all serve basically the same purpuse... stopping tribal/swarms.

Extirpate - some people board this card in against dredge, but to me that seems like a waste because of how useless this card is and continues to be in terms of getting what you want it to do out of it.

Pithing Needle - tech against everything, I find it to be a waste unless the person has played pox for a long time, and knows the meta inside and out.

Dystopia - cutting edge in terms of killing 'goyf while also killing other permanent based control builds such as Quinn and Enchantress.

Chains of Mephistopheles - very limited but very powerful tech vs. cantrip based aggro control that you see running around these days.

Damnation/Haunting Echoes - Unfortunately you probably won't reach this kind of mana while retaining the use of these cards.

So waddya think?

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Chains costs a bazillion dollars -- this is why more people don't run it. Even on MWS, I'd feel super-cheap running it. Like most people who run duals should :wink:

Extirpate -- I run 2 Extirpate & 4 Leyline of the Void in my sideboard. Leyline is almost always GG when you can drop it turn zero. Extirpate is there to keep the chances of getting that grave-hate up there, as even aggressive mulliganing doesn't always guarantee the turn zero play.

For swarms -- massacre, infest, tabernacle, damnation, engineered plague... I'm finding more Merfolk are running Goyf & Faeries these days, making Type-based removal not that strong, especially combined with all the Lords they run. Infest is possibly the best of those, but for :1: more, you get Damnation... so it really depends on how you construct your mana-base and your creature-base. However, Tabernacle has its good & bad points, too -- the good is that it costs you nothing to play, and we run fewer creatures than almost anyone...the bad is that you could miss a land drop and that you run Pox effects, which kill land...

Pithing Needle -- that could work. As you say, though, you need to know what each deck packs. However, if you see an island or a tropical island, "needle on EE" is a pretty safe play :laugh:

Dystopia -- eh... either Enchantress will steamroll you or you'll overpower them... and Dystopia only hits one permanent a turn. I run 3 Perish in my sideboard.

Haunting Echoes -- eh... too dependent on the opponent having cards in the graveyard. Also, it doesn't rip the cards out of their hand. And it costs five :wink:

***On a related note, although the Goyfless Tournament isn't over yet, I have zero chance of hitting the top tables -- two opponents not showing up, generating draws, hurt that a lot.

But I played my version of a Pox deck, and won at least 1 game of every match, even against what I would consider bad matchups: mono-U control and Landstill. A better draw here or there could've made all the difference in the world, as except for one of the mono-U games, I was completely capable of winning (he got soooo many counters in his draws :laugh: ).

In my completely unprofessional estimation, a well-constructed Pox deck is at least tier 2.

I have got to say, I love this deck. I still need some factories in my version of POX, but I'm gettin' there ;P

I have to say, I never planned on it originally but now I love maindecking extirpate. It's just so good, I couldn't tell you times I've dark ritual first turn, then either duress or hymn of tourach.. dropping someone's countertop, goyf, armageddon, loam etc. followed by an extirpate. It can just cripple decks. Worst case scenario, its a discard outlet but I can't see it not being useful in some say.

I also threw in 3 syphon life & Pains Reward though. So basically the first couple turns I disrupt my opponent while our life both drops down to like 10 or so, except my deck is designed to deal with it allowing a nether spirit to chump indeffinitely. Due to the nature of the deck, if I play pains reward when I'm ahead in life generally that's enough card advantage to end it for most non-burn decks (against those its discard outlet). I've tested against my friends U/G countertop and gedon stax, the card wins games. After the first couple turns, or initial disruptions, the games I did/didn't win were almost dictated by whether I got that card off once we were in topdeck mode. They know if I'm at 10 life and they're at 6, ie they can't afford to lose 4 life in the chance I might syphon life or trample over with totem @.@ I love the psychological battle lol, sorta a damned if you do or dont situation, 'cause counterspell cant battle retrace 4 ever >.<
That's my 2 cents

@Pain's Reward -- I considered that card -- honestly, I did -- but I figured it was too much choice for the opponent. Would you care to detail some play-throughs you've made with it?

@Syphon Life -- Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. I don't think I ever thought about this one. That can certainly replace the single Consume Spirit I'm running, and maybe I can swap another slot or two...

Sure, np.

So basically, what I noticed was.. Pox and Smallpox do an amazing job, but there's always the fundamental problem that some cards gotta be sacraficed as a discard outlet (DOH!) so coming up with effective discard outlets was key. Nether spirit is friggin awesome, but as good at it is you're only running two. This "might" account for maybe one POX, but you're also running smallpox too so balancing out with syphon life not only provides that right away, but it provides me another infinitely reuseable source to use on top of using your spirits, totem, factories, w/e.

Okay, early game is pretty self explanatory, a lot of cards getting discarded. You can almost ignore syphon till mid game. Midgame it can start to get unpredictable going back and forth in topdeck mode some games, but syphon life really shines then, especially with crucible in play, because it allows you to make use of otherwise bad midgame land draws, and the incredible thing is you can STILL discard your factory/wasteland/swamp to syphon life, then immediately recur it with crucible. So you didn't waste your factory & you gained a 4 life threshold. When I'd draw into pains reward I'd commonly have more life, this card allows you to abuse your life in a pretty evil way 'cause it comes down to.. you can't bet what you don't have lol If your at 8 life and they're at 6, they can't bet 6 life. I've taken a 10 life hit before, came back and win.. so yeah, the card wins games. A friend told me to put more than 2 in, but I'm not sure about it yet

So you always cast it with the intention of paying the life & getting the cards? Do you ever just let the opponent lose the life, then swing into/discard him?

(My version lacks Crucible, as I didn't want to be dependent on the GY for ANYTHING... but a 4-pt lifeswing that I can recur with a land is worth a little GY dependency.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mujadaddy

So you always cast it with the intention of paying the life & getting the cards? Do you ever just let the opponent lose the life, then swing into/discard him?

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YES. You deffinitely would only want to cast it for your benefit only, however most of the time it will be. I've thought about it, it is possible you could sucker them down to 2 life, then try to finish them the next turn but its so risky, knowing how powerful some of these other tier 1 decks are it'd be very very risky, what if you give them a brainstorm, fow, goyf and a land.. then its their turn.. you'd be like.. craaap rofl

This is not a late game deck at all... like, pretty much if I'm in late game topdeck mode and the're at 13 to my 5 life, something went horribly wrong lol, this deck is just designed to be able to recover faster where you'd have the life advantage, what pains reward does is abuses that life advantage so you don't end up falling flat to countertop/stax etc and lose after getting them down to 4 life lol.

Wanted to post my latest list. Its been awesome.

4 x Pox
4 x Smallpox
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Innocent Blood
4 x Sinkhole
4 x Wretched Banquet
4 x Chimeric Idol
4 x Phyrexian Totem
3 x Powder Keg
35 Spells

4 x Wasteland
3 x Mishra?s Factory
4 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
14 x Swamp
25 Land

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

Wanted to post my latest list. Its been awesome.

4 x Pox
4 x Smallpox
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Innocent Blood
4 x Sinkhole
4 x Wretched Banquet
4 x Chimeric Idol
4 x Phyrexian Totem
3 x Powder Keg
35 Spells

4 x Wasteland
3 x Mishra?s Factory
4 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
14 x Swamp
25 Land

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That needs some work, mainly balance your deck out you dont need so many 4-of's.

You also seem to be overlooking the biggest overall concept of Pox, the sac outlets.. you have no form of recursion, aka 2 nether spirits etc., to sac to your pox & smallpox, and moreso... if you can afford 4x wasteland, you can deffinitely afford 2 crucible. Urborg is legendary btw, Don't use 4 they'll cancel eachother out use 2 at most.

What I'm trying to say is, the point is with pox you're sorta disrupting yourself to take them out too, except you can recover faster... you have no form of recovery/recursion built into your deck. So you're f'ing yourself over just as much as them. Factories/idols are great but not good enough on their own to drop most decks.

Also, I noticed you have no dark rituals & no Duress. I think that's a huge mistake. Being able to turn1 dark ritual + totem + duress, or dark rit + duress + hymn cripples most decks and adds the speed you need to excel.. lets just say dark ritual is too good not to use, and so is duress. Skipping turn1 is not an option to be competetive

Im typing this on my cell so I can't say much but I disagree. The deck never loses to aggro and does great against aggro control which is the meta I designed it to beat.

So clearly speed is not an issue.

Extra Urborgs are what you sac or discard to pox effects. With 7 colorless lands and Pox's BBB cc, 3 Urborgs are the bare minimum.

But taking your advice , here's what Im trying.

4 x Pox
4 x Smallpox
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Innocent Blood
4 x Sinkhole
2/4 x Wretched Banquet
4 x Chimeric Idol
3 x Phyrexian Totem
3 x Nether Spirit
4/2 x Duress
36 Spells

4 x Wasteland
2/3 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
18/17 x Swamp
24 Land

I really dislike the Wretched Banquet. The scenario I keep coming up with is that they have a Bird of Paradise and a Tarmogoyf down :laugh:

Its the exact same as innocent blood or pox in that example, you have enough removal 14-16 that you can kill every creature they play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

Its the exact same as innocent blood or pox in that example, you have enough removal 14-16 that you can kill every creature they play.

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Well, as Innocent Blood, yes. Pox? No. Innocent Blood & Banquet are 1-for-1 cards. Although I'm sure the extra removal helps in an aggro situation, I prefer to think of the advantages the Small/Poxes give as the focus of the deck, not 1-for-1 removal.

Have you abandoned your :b::w: version?

For now yes. There's more aggro and creatures now. This is better vs aggro.

I just don't see how you're gonna outrace those decks, without rituals you're looking 3rd turn till you get your beaters.

Without crucible you have no clear advantage over them in terms of recovery, you wastland them.. they wasteland your urborg.. your both stuck drawing for lands. You Pox, your both drawing for lands, its a cointoss.

Without first turn Duress/dark ritual, be prepared to get raped by countertop+ sensei's. If you can't remove their countertop first turn, their Chalice of the Void, their trinisphere, their Manabond, their reanimate, etc. it could be distasterous.. deffinitely an uphill battle all game. Turn 2 is just too late man..

Obviously we could sit here all day talking about how to beat on crappy decks, but I'd rather discuss how are you gonna beat "those" decks out there. Your deck doesn't have the speed or card advantage to beat control and it isn't fast enough to outrace zoo. If you want to beat goblins or merfolk, you have a sideboard for that but everything else its just excessive.

I like the points M_J just made. I would ask a few things though.

Scanning the early pages of the thread, I noticed that somebody tried to build a budget version of the deck. I don't like the controlling builds that have been thrown up here of late; I wonder if they should be scaled back a little bit and thrown on the budget/kids' forum. You really only need to replace Sinkhole and Wasteland in terms of money; we could retool the deck a little then to accommodate a lesser skill level, too, so kids/new players could start with this idea and build off the shell.

As far as people who go to serious tourneys and don't want to get donkey-punched by budget-less decks, I think we need to try a new tack. One thing we might do is make this like the old Extended builds of Netherhaups. A google search only yields a bunch of Masques/Invasion Regionals articles, but I seem to remember the old Extended build going something like

3 Nether Spirit

4 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Jokulhaups
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Terminate
some number of Phyrexian Arenas

I want to say that this list is from the Pro Tour that happened right after Extended rotated into Rath Block on up and Sixth Ed, but don't quote me.
I realize the dissynergy of Jokulhaups and the artifacts, but I think that's an idea we can build from to patch some of the holes the mono-black builds have been facing. (Obliterate, for instance, makes me really happy, and I think Wildfire has a place if we can protect it with Duress and such).

The other route I can see the deck going is aggro-control, using small efficient beaters and just running Pox to keep them on their heels long enough to win. I've done this with Eva Green with significant success, and I think we could resurrect Machinehead with a similar idea.

I realize that's not really a "list" per se, but getting up to 6 mana is kind of tough to do in a properly constructed Pox deck. Of course, the "list" you recalled doesn't have any Poxes in it, either :laugh: ... Also, Jokulhaups doesn't hit Enchantments, which right there makes it only a half-solution.

In my opinion, and I'm sure there are people who will disagree, Pox is an aggro-control deck. That designation will of course depend on your list of win-conditions, but Nether Spirit & Idols/Totems are creatures, after all. BTW, what was Machinehead? :confused: I'm not up on all the historical names :tongue:

I think red would only mix with POX using aggro creatures with flashback/unearth as a discard outlet. Even still, the mana could be a problem but LED is a nice touch.

I see what they're trying to do with Jokulhaups, sorta like a gedon stax all in one. Try it out I guess.. the casting cost is the only thing that turns me away, too situational.. its hard for me to assume you'll get that perfect hand: haups, ritual, LED, etc. 6cc's pushing it a lil much :P cool idea though

Tom van de Logt played Machinehead at Worlds 2001. That's kind of what I meant by aggro control; I really look at the Pox builds you guys have been batting around as more control, period, like Necro was once upon a time. I think (and I'm glad I'm not alone here) that Pox is best for keeping your opponent on their heels while you beat down. For instance, my current list is

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tombstalker
3 Hypnotic Specter

4 Dark Ritual
4 Pox
4 Thoughtseize
4 Unmask
3 Smother
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
8 Swamp

The Hyppie needs to go, but I haven't decided what for. EE has crapped in my cornflakes often enough that Nantuko Shade is not an option. I like the idea of Shriekmaw, although it doesn't answer as many threats as I'd like it to.
I went 4-3 at a tournament at Play the Game, Read the Story with more or less this list (and, take nothing from the guy who beat me, but one of those losses was round 7 when I just was tired and crabby and was just going through the motions). Goblins was bad news; you need a good draw to win there (one of the reasons I'm considering Shriekmaw).

I have played at least five hundred games with this deck, and Bob has flipped a Stalker twice. Each of them is stupid good on their own, and you can't ignore their awesomeness on the off chance something bad might possibly happen if you have both. (Admittedly the Tops help a bit here, but they help the deck's long game anyway, so it's not like you'd cut them if you dropped either Bob or Tombstalker.)

Also note that Urborg is not playable in Legacy. People stretch their mana bases pretty thin in Legacy; you don't want to help them get a color they wouldn't have access to otherwise. You also want them to go "I'm at three, I'm not glad to see this fetchland" instead of "cool, another colorless mana." Urborg helps them a million times more than it helps you; no matter how good it looks on paper, leave it in your chaff binder.