[Deck] Goblins

It will probably be on lavastep raider level :)

As for the new Grenzo, well.... i don't think we gain anything from it. It's a decent card and i guess we could play one or two, but it just doesn't do what we need. We need combo-hate, better removal, better artifact/enchantment destruction, all of this in goblin shape. Instead they just continue printing slow card-advantage goblins that we are saturated with, and keep all the hatebears in mono-white, they have so much that they don't even know which to play anymore. Given that they printed a matron for them, couldn't they have printed an hate-goblin for us? No, just another broken white hoser in sanctum prelate.

this ranting obviously doesn't accomplish anything, but it's just sad how things goes.... there is clearly someone designing cards for wizards who loves death and taxes, while nobody plays goblins. so we are fucked, but i won't give up

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

They still haven't shown what card gets this art:

http://media.wizards.com/2016/images...gZta0AHnFj.jpg

Hopefully it's not a Conspiracy or Hidden Agenda...

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Looks like new art for Goblin Grenade... Also, not what I asked for.

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Originally Posted by Chatto

@ slave: never tried U in general. Did you feel like it gave you an edge?

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Not really. Black is more my bag.
Blue might be good, but my manabase didn't allow me to make the most of splashing blue as I didn't have Waste/Ports in there, and Force is unplayable here, so there's that. That said, seeing as I was running cards that needed UU and RR in the same deck, Waste/Port could have been detrimental.

If I was going to take Goblins out into the wild against unknown opposition, I think I'd go with black splash for Cabal Therapy & Earwigs.

FWIW, how do fellaz find Grenzo, Dungeon Warden plays out against Terminus?

Also, the new Grenzo, Havoc Raiser might be useful against Brainstorm maybe?
I'm looking at the new Grenzo in combination with Therapy. A pretty difficult line of play to make the most of it though...

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Originally Posted by Chatto

Looks like new art for Goblin Grenade... Also, not what I asked for.

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Turns out it's a token.

http://media.wizards.com/2016/azetll...d4N21UwrYX.png

I had dreams of that art ^ being for an updated Mogg Fanatic, aka something that kills x/2s or even x/3s at the cost of sacrificing itself but that can't go to the dome.

What a surprise, no mildly playable new Goblin for Goblins. /S

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

Turns out it's a token.

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Disappointing. :frown:

So last night I took GOBLINS out in to the wild, this time with a Mono-red list, running Impact Tremors
I never tested the card in Legacy when it first came out, but I did read about other peoples' experiences.

Anyways, I ran a typical list with Matron toolbox, 4x Tremors, 3 Gempalm, 3 Krenko, -4 Warchief, 4 Chieftain, 4 MWM, 2 Instigator.
I don't own Ports or Wastes, so just Mountains for speed, with a couple Sandstone Needle's.

I did okay. Went 2-3 against some heavy opponents.
Beat Bant 2-1, Miracles 2-1
Lost to Lands 1-2, Miracles 1-2, Reanimator 0-2.

Impact Tremors gave me an alternate win-con, which definitely helped against Miracles, unfortunately Tremors got countered a lot too.
Tremors > Chieftain > Krenko worked well, making Tremors big game - that very effect won me a few games through ways I would normally struggle to win.
Lands reminded me thru Glacial Chasm, that I need to start packing a Goblin Settler somewhere in my 75.

Overall, Impact Tremors was okay. Not amazing, but it definitely forces the Miracles player to make some tough plays. I *almost* beat Miracles in both matches.
But saying that, Goblins isn't placed well at all against the kind of decks I usually play against. Think I'm going to stop playing Gobz for a while until they print something relevant. (fingers crossed)

If only new and useful goblins were printed, it would naturally phase out miracles decks.

This is the solution we need for legacy, no need for bans! Just print relevant goblins: Win/Win! :cool:

Seems like there will be no goblins in kaladesh plane :( or at least, the main red tribe is dwarves ...

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Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc

If only new and useful goblins were printed, it would naturally phase out miracles decks.

This is the solution we need for legacy, no need for bans! Just print relevant goblins: Win/Win! :cool:

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It could be time to dust of Anarchy?!

What lord do you guys prefer
- chieftain
- warchief
- chieftain an warchief
(Boartusk liege)

Is chieftain still ahead?

Hi! As someone who is new to this thread, is there any way I could get caught up on agreed consensuses without having to read through all 505 pages? Thanks!:smile:

Certainly! Read the primer here. :cool:

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Originally Posted by dissy

It could be time to dust of Anarchy?!

What lord do you guys prefer
- chieftain
- warchief
- chieftain an warchief
(Boartusk liege)

Is chieftain still ahead?

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Anarchy is a bit slow, but who knows. Regarding Lords: it depends on your build. Many have played both. I suggest to check the primer for different builds, and the appropiate Lord.

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Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew

Certainly! Read the primer here. :cool:

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Great, thanks mate!

Tournament report!

I played in the finals tournament of our local Legacy league today. Sixteen people were qualified, and we played five rounds of swiss plus a top 8.

Here's the list I played:

R/b Goblins

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Skirk Prospector
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Earwig Squad
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
2 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Tarfire
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Warren Weirding

4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Badlands
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Pendelhaven
1 Karakas

Sideboard

2 Chalice of the Void
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Rakdos Charm
2 Blood Moon
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

Here's how my matches went.

R1: Infect 2-0
R2: Dark Maverick 2-0
R3: PoxLoam 0-2
R4: Tezzeret 2-1
R5: ID
Top 8: b/r Reanimator: 0-2

R1 Infect 2-0
G1: (On the play) I keep a hand with Vial, Tarfire, and Wasteland as my early plays.
On turn three I tap out for Matron > Sharpshooter. Sharpshooter gets online, and when Prospector joins the team it's game over for my opponent.
G2: I have Lackey t1, he has t2 Blighted Agent off of 2 Tropical Island. I swing with Lackey. He takes it. I put in Warchief and play Needle. He dazes my Needle, and I waste his other land. Fortunately for me he doesn't find much else and I end up stabilizing by matroning for GI.

R2 Dark Maverick 2-0
G1: I have Cavern > Lackey t1. T2 I Tarfire his DRS, attack, and put Krenko into play. I also play a second Lackey. T3 he scoops in response to EWS.
G2: He has t3 SFM. I play Blood Moon, leaving him with one Plains and a pair of mountains. On the following turn I needle his Jitte and play Warchief. A turn or so later he has a Plow for it, but I overwhelm him from there.

R3 PoxLoam 0-2
G1: He mulligans to five, and I have t1 Vial, but has a tricky start with both Mishra's Factory and Pernicious Deed. This makes it so that I can't overextend into the Deed, but can't chip away with creatures every turn either because of the Factory. The game drags on for a while and he soon recoups his lost advantage. An early Thoughtseize from him, taking away my Matron, is key since I don't draw much gas after that.
G2: I have the option of tapping out for Blood Moon t3, but he has a basic Swamp in play and represents Abrupt Decay pretty hard. I choose to instead Matron for EWS. He untaps, and plays Engineered Plague. Now I only have one creature in play, and can't enable prowl because of his Nether Spirit. T4 he plays a second Engineered Plague. I try to keep fighting, but know the odds are slim and don't get there.

R4: Tezzeret 2-1
G1: I put on a fast clock and win.
G2: He has thopter sword combo. I have Sharpshooter, but can't use it due to his Cursed Totem. I don't find any artifact destruction in time.
G3: I keep a hand with (among other things) 2 Needle and a Sharpshooter. I play a t1 Needle on Thopter Foundry (which was wrong), then another Needle on Helm of Obedience t2. We keep battling for a while with not too much happening. At one point he Transmute Artifacts for Ratchet Bomb, but I have Rakdos Charm. Ringleader finds me four goblins, but he has an Ensnaring Bridge. Thankfully though, I have Cavern and Tuktuk Scrapper, and take home the match.

R4: ID
I knew my opponent was on a Grixis Delver list, and thought about playing it out. I chose not to, but have still to figure out whether that was correct or not.

R5: B/r Reanimator.
G1: He reanimates Griselbrand and Chancellor of the Annex t1.
G2: I keep the following hand:
Surgical Extraction
Pithing Needle
Warren Weirding
Wasteland
Arid Mesa
Wooded Foothills
Badlands

T1 I fetch a Badlands and Needle Griselbrand. I thought about naming a fetchland here, put naming Griselbrand is just too good when I have the answer in hand.
On his t1 he casts Unmask, taking my SE. Then he plays Dark Ritual > Entomb > Exhume > Iona @ Black.
I keep racing but don't find the Karakas in time (and yes, it was on top of my library the turn he killed me :P).

Overall I'm happy with how the deck performed. Can't really expect to beat 2 x Engineered Plague or t1 Griselbrand.
I know I made at least one misplay vs Infect and Tezzeret each, but am otherwise happy with how I played.

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Originally Posted by Sandro95

R4: ID
I knew my opponent was on a Grixis Delver list, and thought about playing it out. I chose not to, but have still to figure out whether that was correct or not.

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You t8'd so it doesn't make a difference, but I've always found Grixis to be an exceptionally easy matchup and your decklist looks like it would bend them over 24/7. Of all the Delver variants (all of which are fairly good matchups), Grixis has to be the easiest one; their creatures line up well with our removal and they're like every other delver deck - horrible at gaining tempo against basic lands, unable to cast their spells in the face of our ports/wastes and once we gain control it's impossible for them to come back.

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

You t8'd so it doesn't make a difference, but I've always found Grixis to be an exceptionally easy matchup and your decklist looks like it would bend them over 24/7. Of all the Delver variants (all of which are fairly good matchups), Grixis has to be the easiest one; their creatures line up well with our removal and they're like every other delver deck - horrible at gaining tempo against basic lands, unable to cast their spells in the face of our ports/wastes and once we gain control it's impossible for them to come back.

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Well, I knew I would make the top 8 if we drew. I was thinking about playing for top seed in order to get to be on the play in the top 8.

I agree that Grixis is a good matchup for us, although there are quite a few different "Grixis" Delver lists out there (Pyromancer, Angler, Green splash for decay, 4c etc.).

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Originally Posted by Sandro95

Well, I knew I would make the top 8 if we drew. I was thinking about playing for top seed in order to get to be on the play in the top 8.

I agree that Grixis is a good matchup for us, although there are quite a few different "Grixis" Delver lists out there (Pyromancer, Angler, Green splash for decay, 4c etc.).

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Yeah as I said, IMO they're all favoured matchups for Goblins.

Grixis and BURG (4c) are rather different decks that are now pretty streamlined.

Grixis splashes green for Decay in the sideboard (and also DRS I suppose) and tries to make the most of Young Pyromancer with Therapy and Git Probe main, where 4C has Decay in the main and usually plays Goyf.

I've moved to BURG Delver and it's probably got the best tools to beat Goblins (Decay, Goyf and Stifle) but it also has the worst manabase of all time.

I tried out a Rw build recently and did ok, beating Infect twice and losing to Big Red and Omnitell. I'm disappointed in the two combo losses because the white splash was for three maindeck Thalias (and three md StP). An early Thalia could have turned the tide for either of those matches. This got me thinking about the current meta game a bit, and why goblins just can't hang anymore.

As I see it there are really just two areas where Goblins is soft against the format: combo interactions and T0-T1 interactions. The combo interaction is most difficult because we can't run FoW. FoW has always been the catch-all for the format but it's unplayable for us because it is the wrong splash color. Blue is the only splash that is not run in goblins. Even if we did have U goblins to run FoW is a much worse card when you don't have BRainstorm, so now you're talking about reducing the creature count significantly in order to run anti-combo cards.

The anti-combo options left to us after FoW are DnT creatures squeezed into Goblin's shell. That's actually an ok option, but it's an inconsistent one. Running three Thalias in Goblins won't give you an equivalent anticombo game to DnT, since DnT is playing many more disruptive creatures and more ways to protect those creatures. Goblins needs a lot more luck to get a disruptive creature in play in time.

There is, for the time being, no real way for us to consistently beat combo. We can build to beat certain types of combo, but not combo in general. Wizards would need to really throw us a bone for that to happen. I'm wondering what that would look like...

Goblin shaped tax/prison creature?
Goblin shaped Ruric Thar/Eidelon? "Every time a player casts a spell it deals X damage to them where X is the number of spells they cast this turn"
Red free spell that's actually relevant against combo? What would that even look like? "Deals damage to target spell's controller equal to the cmc of that spell. Storm"?
Or do we really just want better goblins in general? Same effects but with a lower curve, or a Lord that cantrips, or a Legion Loyalist that actually gives a +X/+X bonus... There have been so many creatures that would have fit so perfectly if they were goblins. And there have been plenty of goblins that were just slightly overpriced or underpowered for legacy. I'm really interested to see what the next four-of goblin looks like.

The last card printed for us that did anything relevant vs. combo was Warping Wail, which is colorless. In terms of taxing effects goes, they are tied with white and colorless mana. I am more hopeful for a hatebear to cost 1C than a red hatebear that costs 1R (since RR is basically unplayable).

I feel like there's a few things that could save this deck. Wizards just has to decide to print some decent goblins. Subterranean Scout was the last playable goblin IMO, but I wouldn't use it outside WINstigator builds as they lean more on connecting. A Thalia isn't necessarily in-colour for flavour, but there are black goblins so maybe those could get the job done.

Maybe something like this?

1(R/B) - red or black
Goblin Befuddler
Creature - Goblin Rogue
2/2
Whenever a player casts a non-creature spell, if you control two or more Goblins, that player discards a card from his or her hand. If that player can't discard a card, Goblin Befuddler deals 2 damage to him or her.

It wouldn't outright beat combo, but it would make things much more difficult for them; particularly if they don't have the nuts and had to cantrip for missing pieces. Also, not splashable in non-goblin decks, which is important because combo in general has been getting a lot of legacy-playable hate printed against it lately. I've been rocking Goblins since Goblin Bidding in Onslaught Standard. Really want this deck to come back.