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Thread: [Deck] Goblins

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    [Deck] Goblins

    Deckprimer Vial-Goblins

    0. Update notes

    February 24th 2014
    * updated the tournament report section

    February 6th 2014
    * updated the tournament report section
    * minor changes to the ""To-be-tested" card list

    November 13th 2013
    * updated the tournament report section
    * changed the layout and position of the update notes
    * added cronos' testing results to the "Literature/Good Reads"

    April 30th, 2013
    * NEW section: "Good Reads"
    April 12th, 2013
    * major changes on the "bad cardchoices" list

    March 16th, 2013
    * hotlink-ed the #####A.N.A.L.Y.S.I.S.#####
    * added Pendelhaven to the to "To-be-tested" section
    * added Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience to the to "To-be-tested" section


    Acknowledgements
    The original version of the following article has been written on the basis of two already existing deckprimers by FoulQ and myself. ScatmanX was so kind to send me FoulQ’s material to help me with my work. I’d like to thank those two people here.
    Also thank you to everyone who is visting this thread on a regular basis. Your constructive comments and the positive atmosphere makes this thread a very valuable piece of information!
    At last I want to point out that I borrowed several ideas for the structure of the primer from Bryant cook’s deckprimer about The Epic Storm.

    I. Introduction
    a) History
    b) Strategy
    c) Why should I play Goblins?
    II. Maindeck
    a) Mana
    b) The Core Concept
    c) Others/Flex-slots
    III. Sideboard
    a) Graveyard
    b) Combo
    c) Enchantments- & Artifacts
    d) Creatures
    e) Others
    IV. Outside the Box
    a) Bad Cardchoices
    b) To-be-tested cards
    V. Literature
    a) Tournament Reports
    b) Good Reads


    I. Introduction

    a) History
    Here is a brief outline of the deck’s development.
    Vial Goblins exists since the very beginning of the format Legacy. It came to life with the printing of Goblin Warchief, Goblin Piledriver, Siege-Gang Commander, Goblin Sharpshooter and Gempalm Incinerator – all of which were included in the Onslaught block. Later Aether Vial was released which made the deck one of the (if not THE) dominant deck in the format. Back in these days Vial Goblins have been part of the stone-paper-scissors relation between Combo, Aggro and Control. Whereas the deck used to beat most Controldecks like Landstill reliably, it heavily struggled with Combo strategies, while being the best Aggrodeck there was.
    The deck gradually lost it’s dominant position with the power-creep that creatures since the Ravnica-block are experiencing. The “invention” of hyrbid strategies like “aggro-control” or “control with combo-elements” lastly robbed the decks status as a Deck To Beat.
    In 2011 with the release of Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull the deck was once again said to be “dead”. Goblins faced the problem that any creature-based strategy was more efficient: while Goblins always relied on their synergistic abilities to spam high CMC creatures like Ringleader and Siege-Gang Commander other creature based strategies were able to just play with any combination of seemingly unrelated cards that were strong in their own rights while having very low mana-costs.
    However, people didn’t lose interest in Goblins. Less than one year later (spring of 2012) some players were coming up with innovative decklists and strategies to compete in the meta. Then, in May 2012 we were blessed with the printing of Cavern of Souls which might initiate a comeback for Vial Goblins.

    b) Strategy
    So what do Goblins do? Goblins have two major lines of play: (1) beating our opponents as fast as possible and (2) grinding out games to win in late game via card- (and board-) advantage. The first strategy is made possible by a combination of Goblin Lackey, Aether Vial, Goblin Warchief, Siege-Gang Commander, Goblin Piledriver and a decent number of spotremoval, while the latter strategy necessarily makes use of the huge card-advantage which the deck can create with cards like Goblin Matron, Ringleader, Mogg War Marshal and Siege-Gang Commander. Which strategy to use is highly dependent from the MU you are playing – oftentimes you will find yourself using a mixture of both strategies.

    c) Why should I play Goblins?
    Quote Originally Posted by FoulQ
    There are many misconceptions about goblins. Many say that the deck is for inexperienced players breaking into the format. However, goblins is a surprisingly consistent synergistic aggro deck. It is able to quickly apply pressure to an opponent with cards like Goblin Lackey and Warren Instigator and still hold inevitability in many matchups because of the Goblin Matron + Goblin Ringleader card advantage engine. Few other decks have both a strong early game and strong late game like goblins. It also has a very easy time developing tempo thanks to cards like AEther Vial, Goblin Lackey, and Stingscourger. Looking at the matchups, goblins has a great matchup against almost all fish strategies, […]. It struggles with combo (particularly tendrils-based decks) and Zoo. However, all other matchups are in the air for who favors who and generally come out to about even.

    Yet, there is more to goblins dreary matchup analysis, a strong early game, and a strong late game. I know personally that I am not the most technically sound player in almost any competitive setting; however, I’m capable of understanding what my strengths and weaknesses are as a player, and knowing which route to take to lead the best possible chance of victory. Goblins is a natural fit for a “big picture” type of player, who understands deck philosophy and theory but can sometimes make dumb technical mistakes. Goblins is less punishing to big mistakes, while control/combo decks obviously punish you badly when you mess up with them, and even making a big mistake with a deck like zoo can be horrible because there is no chance to make up the lost card advantage. For this reason, I actually think it is a BAD deck if you are just trying to get into the format, because A) it is a money sink and the cards don’t go in any other deck, and B) it rewards extensive knowledge of the format more than tight play.
    I want to add that a large part of mastering the deck has to do with good “combat math”. What does combat math mean? It refers to the mental ability to calculate the possible outcomes of one or many combat-steps in advance. The word “math” underlines that you must actually calculate damage a lot to be successful. What makes combat math especially important for Goblins is the fact that we have a large pool of cards that make it realy difficult to calculate with (even more so for your opponent). Unexpected (“last-minute”-) changes to the combat situation can be created by: Mogg Fanatic, Pyrokinesis, Gempalm Incinerator, any pump-lord (with Vial@3), Vial with any number of counters, Skirk Prospector, Siege-Gang Commander, Tuktuk Scrapper….so virtually any card you can think of.
    If you are good at combat math you will find yourself winning many games just because your opponent isn’t used to this kind of thinking and therefore makes bad decision when declaring blockers, attackers or targeting his spotremoval. Common statements of our opponents will be
    “I should not have blocked X…”
    “I should not have attacked with X…”
    “I should not have removed X, but Y…”
    And lastly “…otherwise I would have won”.
    Yeah…but in Magic there is no room for “would, should and could”.


    II. The Maindeck

    a) Mana
    Let’s talk about lands first. Goblins are a very mana-hungry aggro-deck which needs to be provided with lands in the first three turns (that’s usually what most people refer to as the “setup-phase” to ensure a fast and solid start. The high manacosts of cards like Ringleader and Siege-Gang Commander and manaconsuming abilities like those of Rishadan Port and Siege-Gang Commander “force” us to play a number of lands that is rarely seen in a fast aggro-deck: 22-24. (Note that successful attempts have been made to run 20 or 21 mana-sources. However those cases are rare and usually only run smoothly in well balanced decklists. So for starters I’d advice to run 23 lands).
    Furthermore, mana-denial (although not completely screwing the opponent) is an important part of Goblins’ gameplan. This is why a playset of Wastelands + X Rishadan Ports find their way into most Goblin-lists. Apart from purely shutting our opponents off a single color there several lands that give Goblins hard times:
    * Mishra’s Factory, Mutavault and Creeping Tar Pit
    * Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    * Grove of the Burnwillows (in combo with Punishing Fire
    * Academy Ruins and Volrath’s Stronghold
    * Maze of Ith
    Since May 2012 Cavern of Souls is considered an auto-include in every Goblin-decklist. However, as yet there is no consensus about the right number. When creating decklists with many copies of Cavern of Souls we should be cautious about the number of non-creature-goblin-cards that require colored mana like Lightning Bolt, Warren Weirding and Gempalm Incinerator.
    The most common splash-colors for Gobs are Black and Green. For manafixing we have every R-fetchland, Badlands and Taiga available.
    Other mana accelerating cards have been tested, like Chrome Mox, Simian Spirit Guide and Gemstone Caverns, whereas only the first one has proven to be useful. (for explanation and sample decklists that include Chrome Mox read the discussion on page 16-19 of this thread).
    On July 22nd, Tobias Dreger's decklist was released, which he piloted to place 18 (out of 1445 players). His decklist featured 1 Karakas which is a new choice for a Goblin decklist. Karakas is another utility land which can be used to (1) proctect our own legendary Goblins (like Krenko, Mob Boss and Kiki-Jiki) and (2) bounce opponent's legends (Griselbrand, Emrakul and Thalia).

    b) The Core Concept
    Before I start explaning the cardchoices in maindeck I want to introduce a concept for presenting decklists. When presenting decklists (as found in tournament reports or postings in this thread) I prefer a functional division of the deck into the following groups: Lands, Core, Others and Sideboard. The reasoning goes as follows: Goblins have a straight concept and therefore many card in the maindeck are similar in almost every list. The manabase typically consists of manadenial-lands, fetchlands and mana-producing lands. The rest of the deck can be divided in very much the same way, namely Corecards + Other cards. Following this division I present my decklists this way:

    //MANA [20-24]
    0-8 Manadenial-lands
    0-8 Fetchlands
    8-24 Mana-producing lands
    X Other mana acceleration

    //CORE [24]:
    4 AEther Vial
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Piledriver
    4 Goblin Warchief
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader

    //Others [10-14]:
    X Removal
    X Utility

    When referring to the Core I usually replace those 24 by writing “…”; when the number of any card in core differs from this list I note what exactly changed e.g.:

    //Core [23]
    - 1 Goblin Warchief
    (meaning: this list contains all usual core-cards -1 Goblin Warchief)

    This divison has three important advantages: (1) decklists become much shorter to read, (2) individual changes can be detected quickly and (3) comparison of decklists becomes easier.

    AEther Vial
    Countermage’s worst nightmare: creatures with strong CIP-triggers enter the battlefield with instant-speed while lands are untapped – ready for manadenial and removal…Vial abuses the balanced mana-curve of the deck while increasing it’s explosiveness. Vial is one of the reasons why such a fast aggro deck can approve such high-CMC-creatures as Ringleader and Siege-Gang Commander. Oftentimes Vial is ticked up every round, whereas one should carefully consider adding more than three counters.
    Did you know that?
    Vial has an upkeep-trigger that reads “you may put a charge counter on Aether Vial”. Therefore one should announce the trigger in each and every upkeep (you will NEVER forget that after a while) and then carefully think whether to add another counter or not. E.g.: It’s our mainphase and we control Vial with 2 counters on it (@2) – we have a Mogg War Marshal, Piledriver and Ringleader on our hand and we want to cheat all of them through our opponent’s counterspells. Actually we must leave AV @ 2 for 2 rounds to do that – but luckily we are either skillful and/or have read GoboLord’s primer ;-) We tap Vial to bring in Piledriver. In our next upkeep we announce the may-trigger and tap AV in response to bring in MWM – after that, Vial’s trigger resolves and we add another counter. So, in our next upkeep we can decide to bring in any cc3 Goblin or the Ringleader that waits on our hand.

    Goblin Lackey
    Mountain, Lackey, Go – the best T1-play our deck has. His threatening, triggered ability enables fast and aggressive starts, even turn-3-kills. On the other hand we does very often not “connect” because opponents will try everything to throw removal, counter or Stifle at him. Placing creatures in his way is oftentimes a plan-B, because we the creature is question could be removed to make sure that Lackey get’s the party started.
    Did you know that?
    Lackey’s oracle-text reads that he can bring in goblin-permanents, whereas Warren Instigator can only bring in goblin-creatures. This fact is often irrelevant because most goblin-permanents have legs anyways. Also there is a nice interaction with Rakdos Charm that doesn't work for Warren Instigator.

    Goblin Piledriver
    Piledriver is a common choice for the deck. His insane triggered ability causes heavy damage to opponents lifepoints, when unblocked. However this is often not the case, since opponents place creatures and removal in his way – in fact he can be seen as an removal for creatures like Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker and sometimes even Knight of the Reliquary. Piledriver supports aggressive strategies and usually makes the deck more explosive.
    Did you know that…
    ...his triggered ability checks the number of Goblins on resolution? This has two implications: (1) Stifle turn an attacking PD into a Squire and (2) your opponent can destroy (or therwise remove) goblins in response to the triggered ability and still weaken your PD.

    Goblin Warchief
    Warchief - along with Lackey and Vial – is the reason that such heavy creatures as Goblin Ringleader and Siege-Gang Commander are part of the deck. He is very threatening, because of his cost-reducing ability in combination with providing all goblins with haste. This makes him a favored target for removal.
    Did you know that…
    Some players consider Goblin Chieftain to be equal in power and even cut Warchief to run more Chieftains. I personally think that this is a horrible move. After playing a while without Warchiefs and then returning back to them I can’t express in words how much I missed the cost-reducing ability. I would therefore run Chieftain in addition to Warchief if you (for whatever reason) need (1) additional haste-enablers and (2) pumping (+1/+1).

    Goblin Matron
    Matron has the worst BMI (Body-Mana-Index) in the whole deck, but ensures flexibility in every state of the game! Most often Ringleader and removal will find their way into momma’s kitchen. Matron seduces to fill the “others” slots with a tool-box of 1-offs. This isn’t a bad idea in the first place, but we should realize that we play the aggressive part in game 1 very often – for this reason cards like Goblin Tinkerer and Tuktuk Scrapper should be placed in sideboard instead (the sideboard is usually designed to switch to the control-role; or as jrw1985 puts it:
    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    […]
    This little exercise is really opening my eyes to how control-oriented sideboarding is. Where Zoo has Price of Progress and Fireblast to burn out their opponents more quickly just about every other deck's sideboard is based around making the deck more defensive.
    Did you know that?
    Matron is one of the cards that should be played very mindfully. It’s her very flexibility that can lead players to make poor choices. Generally one should play her as late as possible for exactly two reasons:
    (1) Especially in early-game other cards are often better suited to improve our boardposition. Sure, it’s tempting to go for the Matron-into-Piledriver-move to quickly end the game; but we should also check our opponent’s lifepoints and ask ourselves if we need him right on the spot. We have to realize that we run 3-4 copies of almost every card in deck and that the chance to draw one without momma’s help is already very high (enough).
    (2) A Matron is the best card in late-game. She fetches us either Ringleader to reload, removal for ugly critters or Siege-Gang Commander for the alphastrike. This is especially important if our opponent managed to “wipe” us via Firespout, Pyroclasm et.al. Therefore: Matron’s value increases every round!

    Goblin Ringleader
    Goblin Ringleader is considered the 2nd win-condition of our deck because he ensures (directly or indirectly) that we won’t run out of creatures in the course of the game. IMO Ringleader can (when played correctly) never disappoint us: Imagine he reveals us 4 lands in late-game – did he disappoint us? Certainly not! Imagine how the game would have ended if we’d drawn 4 lands in a row!
    Someone once called him a “walking Ancestral Recall”. I strongly disagree! Ringleader has much more facets than AR, which makes him one of (if not THE) most powerful card of the deck.
    Did you know that?
    Ringleader never lets you down. Have you ever revealed 4 lands in a row? Yes, almost certainly. Have you ever been disappointed about this fact? You shouldn’t! Evertime Ringleader reveals 0 Goblin cards, ask yourself how the game would have turned out if you had drawn those cards for the next 4 turns! However he usually should reveal 3 Goblin cards, with 4 and 2 cards lying within standards, while 0 or 1 is highly unlikely.

    Siege-Gang Commander (SGC)
    SGC is on of the most flexible cards of the deck, his strong CIP-trigger makes him a very good card for both offense and defense. Clever opponents burn/remove him in response on his CIP-trigger to avoid being shot down by his tokens. The best thing we can do in this case is to sacrifice him for his own ability. He has a huge impact on the board: with SGC in play we can oftentimes hold our creatures (from hand) back for several turns and leave lands untapped to use his activated ability in response on removal/boardsweepers. So after a boardsweeper we have enough gas in hand to start over again.
    Did you know that?
    There are lots of cards that have a wonderful interaction with SGC. One can react on Stingscourger’s and MWM’s Echo-upkeepd trigger to use their bodies as cannon-fodder, Piledrivers and Gempalm Incinerator become extremely dangerous and along with Sharpshooter he can kill every x/4 creature via 1:1 trade.
    I really like to fight Umezawa’s Jitte with him: declare a blocker for the equipped creature and sacrifice this blocker before the Damage Step: no creature, ergo: no damage, ergo: no counters for Jitte. The same goes for lifelink’ed creatures.


    c) Others/ Flex-Slots
    The cards we have discussed so far belong to the established core of the deck which is found in 95% (estimated) of the Goblin-decklists you will see on the internet. Let’s now turn to those 14-18 cards that are very different among players. I call this part the “Flex-Slots” because they can be filled with very different cards that fit the pilot’s playstyle and favors. It’s this part of the deck (along with the sideboard, which will be discussed next) that defines the strategy of the particular decklist.

    Mogg War Marshal and Warren Instigator
    MWM and “Winstigator” are rarely found in the same list (in part because they compete for the CMC2 slot). MWM is a good choice for an aggro-meta, because it helps us playing the control-part and therefore helps grinding the game out until lategame. Apart from that he upgrades Piledriver and Gempalm Incinerator – therefore supporting both defensive and offensive strategies.
    Winstigator on the other hand is very strong against control and combo because of their lack of blockers. Winstigator supports aggressive strategies only. A good thing to know about Winstigator is that you should NEVER announce that both damages (from first-strike segment and from regular damage segment) resolve at the same time. This way you can mess with his double-strike ability: in first-strike segment his triggered ability resolves and lets you bring a Goblin into play (like Matron or Chieftain), then in the regular damage segment you can make use of the Goblin you just pitched – e.g. dealing 2 (instead of 1) dmg with the second hit in case you brought in Chieftain – or putting the Goblin into play you just tutor’ed with Matron.

    Goblin Chieftain
    Goblin Chieftain deserves 1-3 slots in some lists. Mono R lists play him a solution to the otherwise unanswered E.Plague. If we want to play him in greater numbers we should consider running less than 4 Rishadan Ports, because his RR manacosts can be very disturbing. Replacing Warchiefs with Chieftain should not be done lightly and you need very good reasons to do so. In case you find the LORD-effect (+1/+1) attractive, you should also consider the following two cards.
    (suggested reading: hot topics)

    Mad Auntie
    Mad Auntie is an alternative to Chieftain which is much more defensive.
    Quote Originally Posted by ScatmanX
    […] it is a really good card, but depends heavely on the build. If you want to play it, 2-3 would be the number. It gives you "infinite" blockers, and you don't have to worry about losing your Piledriver when attacking.
    Skirk Prospector
    This guy is typically found alongside with Sharpshooter. However Sharphooter is not the only reason to run him a 1-of. The most important thing about Prospector is, that he does so many things: fight Jitte, ramp cards like Matron, SGC and Ringleader, defuse Bridge from Below and provide instant-mana for Rishadan Port and Lightning Bolt. I personally see him as a source for mana-acceleration, which means that he is currently my 22nd land. In the old thread we had an extended discussion about Skirk Prospector, approximately starting at page 282.


    Tin Street Hooligan, Goblin Tinkerer and Tuktuk Scrapper
    1-of artifact hate is commonly seen in Goblin-decklists today (and in past). The most important reason is (again) flexibility. It’s not only meta-depended if we want to prepare for Jitte, Phyrexian Dreadnought and Vedalken Shackles. Artifact hate in MD is virtually never useless because decks today are rarely artifact-free.
    Quote Originally Posted by FoulQ
    Along with stingscourger, you should have no problem with dreadnoughts anymore. There are a lot of random powerful artifacts that can really ruin your day that you would not expect to come up in a game, and goblin tinkerer helps deal with this and actually increase your deck's consistency, such as random stax cards, vedalken shackles, and so forth. However, he is not a good answer to jitte, and we have all had bad experiences with a lone 1/2 for 1R sitting on the field applying absolutely zero pressure before.
    I’m tending towards 0 artifact hate in the Maindeck and only 1 (if any in the SB). The card of my choice is Tuktuk Scrapper, however each of those guys has its merits and strengths. (see also an extended discussion about this topic on page 290, old thread.
    (suggested reading: hot topics)

    Wort, Boggart Auntie, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker,and Krenko, Mob Boss are the upper end of the foodchain (looking at the highly demanding manacosts). All of them have very different applications: Wort restores removal (did you ever had access to an eternal Gempalm Incinerator?), Kiki-Jiki does tricks with virtually every Goblin (interesting discussions starting on page 301[/url] of the old thred) and Krenko causes exponential growth. All of those cards have in common that they are usually MUST-ANSWERS. All of them can win a game by themselves (or at least with very few help from other Goblins. However, a word of warning: don’t make the mistake of building your whole deck around those cards! Their demanding manacosts make them typical 1-offs which means that oftentimes you will be winning or losing without ever having drawn them. You should see them as addition to an already existing strategy. Because this topic is especially important here are some examples:
    * Don’t run more MWM than necessary just to abuse Krenko.
    * Don’t run Warren Weirding just to make MORE use of Wort, if you would otherwise not need it for the decks in your meta.
    * Don’t focus too much on Goblins with “comes into play” triggers, just because you want to play with Kiki-Jiki. Your deck already has enough CIP trigger that can be abused.


    (Spot-)Removal

    Gempalm Incinerator
    GI trades 0:1 (in the worst case 0:0), can’t be counterered by ordinary countermagic, sneaks itself through a Standstill and even has a body to block/attack with. One should carefully count all Goblins in play (even Mutavault is a Goblin once in a while ;-)) and consider opponent’s removal (which lowers your Goblin-count) before using GI. The standard is to run 3 copies of GI in your MD.

    Stingscourger
    This guy is really good in trading 1:1,5. This means that he can be flashed into play via Vial, bounce a creature and block another. But he has not only defensive abilities – this become especially clear when you cast him for R (with Warchief I play), thereby bouncing the only blocker and adding +2 damage to your Piledriver and dealing an additional 2 damage itself. We had an interesting discussion about Stinger and Gempalm starting on page 303 of the old thread – there we considered all applications of both cards in the weirdest kinds of situations. Stingscourger is my all-time-favorite, which means that I advice everyone to run at least one copy of him in MD.

    Warren Weirding
    WW trades 1:1 with opponent’s creatures but can be used to multiply our own MWMs. Most often it upgrades Tarmogoyfs by adding Tribal and Sorcery to the T-counter (both of which are rarely played in decks with Tarmogoyfs). Note that opponent’s Mutavaults are Goblins, too! Warren Weirding and Stingscourger are often mention in the same context (e.g. Which card is better in dealing with fatties). My answer is: Stingscourger. I won’t explain that in any detail in order to not restrict discussions.

    Mogg Fanatic
    Mogg Fanatic is a rare, but reasonable choice in the right configuration. He can do many things and nothing at all…let me explain: In lists that rely on BURN-damage (GI, Lightning Bolt, Sharpshooter, Pyrokinesis, Lightning Crafter) he can be the additional 1 dmg that is needed in case something unexpected happens (like when the creature become”tougher” or GI doesn’t do enough damage because your Goblin-count is lowered). Apart from that he can also be compared to Skirk Prospector in that he defuses Birdge from Below and can one-way prevent Jitte’s or Lifelink triggers to resolve. At last he also adds up to GI and Piledriver, which might be attractive for some lists (e.g. when you are lacking MWMs).

    Goblin Sharpshooter and Lightning Crafter
    Those guys are typical 1-offs. Both of them are valued for their flexibility. Sharpshooter helps in the mirror-match, against hordes of Elves and nullifies Thopter Foundry, Empty the Warrens, Elspeth, Bitterblossom and Lingering Souls. He also has a beautiful interaction with SGC, Skirk Prospector, Stingscourger and MWM. Lightng Crafter is very good in doing tricks with Matron/Ringleader/SGC by abusing their CIP-triggers. He’s also good in keeping Cats, Apes and Planeswalkers on a comfortable distance. However, his obvious downsides are his high manacosts as well as the fact that it usually takes one whole turn to get him going (which is kind of slow for a spotremoval).

    Lightning Bolt and Tarfire
    Bolts are best for a meta with many aggro and mid-range decks. Unfortunately Goblins have trouble in dealing with early Stoneforge Mystic, Wild Nacatl, and Tarmogoyfs. Lightning Bolt helps out in those situations. The drawbacks are obvious: Bolt doesn’t reach huge Goyfs, Knight of the Reliquary et.al. and can’t be fetched/netted with Matron and RL. Still, imho Bolt is one of the best removals available for us due to his cheap manacosts and instant speed. Besides he can be used as direct damage , which is quite nice in some MUs (ANT, DDFT, Reanimator).
    In 2011 the meta has changed to the extent that Stoneforge Mystic is more frequently played than Tarmogoyf. This (and several other arguments) makes Tarfire a reasonable alternative to Lightning Bolt. For a discussion on this topic read pages 59ff.
    Suggested reading about Lightning Bolt, click here.

    Pyrokinesis and Dismember
    I am discussing Pyrokinesis and Dismember in the same paragraph because they are (afaik) the only colorless removal. This fact is a benefit that makes both cards attractive for (1) multi-colored lists and (2) lists with many “colorless lands” (Wastelands, Rishadan Port, Cavern of Souls). However they obviously do quite different things.
    Pyrokinesis is more flexible in that it can trade destroy up to 4 potential blockers or just a single, huge one (like BatterGerm). What’s probably most attractive is that it can be played for 0 mana (! think of it… a spotremoval for 0 mana!), which makes it very hard for you opponents to take this one into account when doing combat math. Dismember is a very rare choice, which is only reasonable if you need either (1) colorless removal or (2) instant-removal for huge creatures. While both cards have a potential surprise factor they also have severe drawbacks. This is why we should never run a full playset of them in MD.
    (suggested reading: hot topics)

    Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile
    Today W splash is pretty rare, but back when it was more popular, some lists ran Swords to Plowshares instead of L.Bolt. In a metagame with many heavy-weight-monsters StoP can be an option even today. We now have Path to Exile available, which I personally find worse than StoP because it clashes with our manadenial.


    III. Sideboard

    a) Graveyard

    Relic of Progenitus
    Relic can be too slow to beat most Dredge- and Reanimator decks, while it is effective RUG Thresh, Jund and BUG Aggro/tempo decks. Relics strength lies in shrinking Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary and countering Deathrite Shaman's ability targeting YOUR graveyard.

    Extirpate, Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre
    Those three are very selective and are therefore not good against decks where the actual size of the graveyard matters. However combo-decks like Reanimator only need 1 single card out of their graveyard to win, this is where Extirpate and Faerie Macabre shine.
    However, those cards should not only be viewed as graveyard hate as they can open up some other tactics: they can be used to shut your opponent off a certain color, screw with Storm Combo's plan of using Ill-Gotten Gains/Past in Flames or Bridge from Below, mess with any deck that resolved Intuition and counter Snapcaster Mage’s ability.

    Leyline of the Void and Rest in Peace
    This one is my personal favorite if you can spend 4 slots on graveyard hate. According to most Lands-, Loam- and Dredge-players I talked to, LotV is the most effective gravehate although it has obvious drawbacks: We will never be able to cast LotV – and if so it will just lock and empty prison. This in turn makes it reasonable to run LotV even in lists without B-splash. Planar Void is an alternative to LotV with the same drawback: if you draw it in mid- or lategame it's most often pretty useless. The difference here is that Planar Void affects your graveyard, too.
    Suggested reading about Leyline of the Void, click here.
    With the release of Return to Ravnica we got a new toy: Rest in Peace. This card not only brought back the infamous Control-/Lockdeck featurning Helm of Obedience, it also kicked Reanimator and especially Dredge out of the format. Apart from that Rest in Peace has proven to be a very good SB choice for Goblins, when you are willing to splash W.

    Grafdigger’s Cage
    The last card to be mentioned is Grafdigger’s Cage. Apart from its gravehating value it can also be used to counter [cards]Green Sun’s Zenith[/card], Natural Order and fetchlands that target Dryad Arbor

    b) Combo

    Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst/Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    Those artifacts are both blocking opponent’s spells on the one or the other way. Chalice is considered more flexible, because it can be set @ 0 and because it’s application isn’t restricted to combo decks with storm mechanic. I use Chalice against the following decks: ANT, TES, DDFT, High Tide, Belcher, Burn, Elves, UR Delver and (depending on my other SB cards) Reanimator and RUG Thresh.
    Thorn, on the other hand, is stronger in actually disturbing our opponent’s gameplan, because it delays every spell in their deck. The drawback however is, that it’s more vulnerable to discard and sometimes our opponents can even go off before we even drop it. I have spotted Pyrostatic Pillar in some Goblin decklists, however for me it is just a bad replacement for Thorn of Amethyst, since it isn’t nearly as flexible. Recently Thalia has become a replacement for Thorn of Amethyst. However, Thalia is different in that she is usually played in MD (rarely in SB) and that she provides a body.

    Mindbreak Trap
    Mindbreak Trap’s application is limited to strom-combo and is very vulnerable to both discard and opponent’s Chant-effect (Silence, Orim’s Chant). On the other hand it doesn’t disturb our gameplan because it costs 0 mana and can be very annoying as our opponents don’t have the balls to go off unprotected when they know we run Traps. As far as I know the default assumption of storm combo players is that our combo hate is Mindbreak Trap.

    Earwig Squad
    This dude is so far the only Goblin-shaped combohate. If he hits any combo deck he will be stealing approximately 50%-100% of their winconditions. The drawback is obviously his relatively “high” cost, therefore he shouldn’t be the only hate we have. He is also quite nice to steal our opponent’s SB-cards after game 1 – some of which can be quite devastating for us: Engineered Plague, Firespout and Moat.


    Cabal Therapy, Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek
    If you want to include discard spells in your sideboard, those three are your likely candidates. However, you should be working towards using Cabal Therapy because our high number of creatures gives the opportunity to flashback it. Discard can cripple out opponents hand completely. At it’s worst it forces our opponent to use a Brainstorm in response to hide valuable cards.

    c) Enchantment- & Artifact

    Tin Street Hooligan, Goblin Tinkerer and Tuktuk Scrapper
    Goblin-shaped artifact hate (usually) as 1-off is a common sight. The omnipresence of Umezawa’s Jitte and recently Batterskull is very good reason for running them. So, you should usually devote at least one SB slot to artifact-eating Goblins. (for more info read see the explanation of MD cards)
    Non-Goblin artifact hate is available in the form of Meltdown, Shattering Spree, Shatterstorm, Pulverize and Ancient Grudge – whereas the latter is my personal favorite.
    (suggested reading: hot topics)

    Krosan Grip, Nature’s Claim/Tear/Wear/ Seal of Cleansing
    Apart from artifact-only removal there are some cards that can destroy enchantments too. Which of those cards you use depends on splashes and personal preference.
    Some rare choices are Reverent Silence and Back to Nature: both cards affect only enchantments, which is usually the type of permanent that gives us the least trouble.

    d) Creatures

    Pyrokinesis, Stingscourger &Goblin Sharpshooter
    (s. explanation of MD cards)

    Perish and Nature’s Ruin
    Perish and NR are very good against Elves, Zoo, Maverick and every Bant- and Threshold-variant. On the other hand it has high manacosts and demands B. Usually those decks don’t have the means of holding cards back to dodge massremoval. A trick to force your opponents into misplays: you may try to “hide” your blacksplash and just fetch up your Badlands in the moment when you want to cast Perish.

    Virtue’s Ruin and Anarchy
    Virtue’s Ruin and Anarchy can both free the board from white creatures and are therefore comparable to Perish. However, you will be finding yourself boarding those cards in MU different from where you use Perish: recently control decks like Esperblade, UW Stoneblade and UW Miracle control make use of white angels and spirits to bveat their opponents. Apart from that Anarchy is useful to deal with control decks that feature white permenants like Elspeth, Knight Errant, Moat and Thopter Foundry. For me the quite high CMC4 of Anarchy have never been an issue compared to Virtue’s Ruin – that’s why I usually recommend he first.


    e) Others
    What follows now is a list of cards that don’t fit in the 3 main categories mentioned above. Some SB slots are dedicated to very specific MUs and to prepare the deck for individual metagames. Most of the cards have proven to be effective, thus I will not explain their obvious applications in detail.

    Boartusk Liege
    Against Engineered Plague and Pyroclasm/Rough/Tumble. Is immune to Abrupt Decay

    Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon
    Against any multicolored deck.

    Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast
    Pyroblast can target even non-blue permanents – I don’t know if that is important in any case.
    (SUGGESTED READING about REB vs. Pyroblast)

    Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Null Rod
    Can shut off a variety of frightening permanents like: Pernicious Deed, Vedalken Shakles, Umezawa’s Jitte, Batterskull, Stonforge Mystic and any Planeswalker

    Sulfuric Vortex
    fights Batterskull, Kitchen Finks, Grove of Burnwillows and is certainly a killer for any control deck

    Rakdos Charm
    is a 3-in-1 card. It either hoses Dredge/Reanimator, shrinks Knight of the Reliquary, destroys equipments, enables Lackey-triggers or finishes your opponent in the mirrormatch (in case he overextends with Krenko).

    Angel of Despair/ Ashen Raider and Confusion in the Ranks
    against Show and Tell decks

    Ethersworn Cannonist
    against Storm Combo, probably as an alternative to Thalia, Guardian of Thraben




    IV. Outside the Box
    This paragraph will focus on the future of the deck inasmuch that I hope to inspire people to test unconventional cardchoices and report their results.

    a) Bad Cardchoices
    The following list is only temporary and may therefore be changed as the metagame changes!
    * Goblin King (better cardchoices: Goblin Chieftain)
    * Goblin Lookout (better cardchoices: Goblin Chieftain)
    * Beetleback Chief (better cardchoices: Krenko, Mob Boss, Siege-Gang Commander)
    * Goblin Tunneler (better cardchoices: any removal spell)
    * Slavering Null
    * Goblin Wardriver (better cardchoices: Goblin Chieftain)
    * Goblin Wizard
    * Fecundíty
    * Goblin Guide
    * Brightstone Ritual (better cardchoices: Mountain)
    * Chaos Warp
    * Vexing Shusher
    * Volrath's Stronghold (better cardchoices: Mountain)
    * Mutavault (better cardchoices: Mountain)
    * Ancient Tomb (better cardchoices: Mountain)
    * Smoldering Spires (better cardchoices: any removal spell)
    * Soaring Seacliff (better cardchoices: any removal spell)
    * Path to Exile (better cardschoices: Dismember, Swords to Plowshares)
    * Tormod’s Crypt (better cardchoices are: Relic of Progenitus, Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace)
    * Nihil Spellbomb (better cardchoices are: Relic of Progenitus, Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace)
    * Basilisk Collar (better cardchoices: any removal spell)
    * Boros Charm (better cardchoices: any removal spell)
    * Choke (better cardchoices: Blood Moon)
    * Oblivion Ring (better cardchoices: Angel of Despair, Confusion in the Ranks)
    * Pyrewild Shaman (better cardchoices: any removal spell)
    * Sulfur Elemental (better cardchoices: Pyrokinesis, Anarchy, Virtue's Ruin)
    * Deathrite Shaman (Reference)
    * Pestermite, Deceiver Exarch and Intruder Alarm (in combination with Kiki-Jiki (Reference)
    * Boggart Mob (better cardchoices: Krenko, Wort, Lightning Crafter)

    b) To-be-tested cards:
    * Blood Moon vs. Magus of the Moon
    * Sparksmith alongside with Basilisk Collar
    * Caller of the Claw
    * Contested War Zone
    * Sensation Gorger
    * Summoning Trap
    * Tuktuk the Explorer
    * Frogtosser Banneret
    * Bloodmark Mentor
    * Mirror Entity
    * Taurean Mauler
    * Battle Squadron
    * Fodder Launch
    * Goblin Pyromancer
    * Murderous Redcap
    * Shrieking Mogg
    * Rakdos Charm
    * Cover of Darkness
    * Pendelhaven
    * Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience (sneaky sideboard-tech)
    * Root Maze

    V. Literature

    a) Tournament Reports
    * March 8th 2013, goblinsplayer, 4-2-1, Rb build
    * March 10th 2013, superspaceshooter, 4-2-1, Rw Thalia build
    * March 9th 2013, Fuwanity, 3-2-1, Rw build
    * April 13th 2013, magicmerl, 7-1-1 (1st), Rwg build
    * April 14th 2013, Jon jrw1985, 7-2 (10th), Rwg build
    * May 3rd 2013, Jon jrw1985, 3-0-1, Rwg THALIA build
    * May 4th 2013, Eldamion, 4-1, Rwg build
    * May 11th 2013, GoboLord, 4-1, WINSTIGATOR build
    * June 2nd 2013, Sandro95, Top4, Rb build
    * June 10th 2013, ScatmanX, 2-2, Rb Living Death Goblins
    * June 17th 2013, jrw1985, 3-0-1, Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    * June 17th 2013, magicmerl, Top 4, Rwg THALIA Goblins
    * June 26th 2013, goblinsplayer, 5-3, Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    * July 14th 2013, GoboLord, 2-3, Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    * July 16th 2013, Schokosensei, 2-1, Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    * July 19th 2013, jrw1985, 0-2, Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    * July 20th 2013, jrw1985, 2-1, Mono R CLASSIC Goblins with 1-off Goblin-board
    * July 21st 2013, LeoCop 90, Finals, Rwg THALIA Goblins
    * July 25th 2013, jrw1985, 2-1, Rb CLASSIC Goblins
    * July 25th 2013, fimo, 3-1, Rw "Averaged" Goblins
    * August 4th 2013, AlmostGrown, 4-2, Rg CLASSIC Goblins
    * August 28th 2013, jrw1985, 2-1 Rw THALIA Goblins
    * August 28th 2013, Sandro85, Rb CLASSIC Goblins
    * September 1st 2013, max_goblin, 3-1, Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    * October 13th 2013, GoboLord, 4-1, Rb WINSTIGATOR Goblins
    * October 20th 2013, ScatmanX, 3-1, Mono R CLASSIC with Chrome Moxen
    * October 21st 2013, max_goblin, 2-1, Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    * October 26th 2013, magicmerl, Semifinals, Rw THALIA Goblins
    * November 11th 2013, jrw1985, 3-1, Rb CLASSIC Goblins
    * November 17th 2013, ScatmanX, Top 8 at Brazil Nationals
    * November 23rd 2013, max_goblin, 2-2, Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    * November 23rd 2013, prateta, 3-1, Rw CLASSIC Goblins
    * November 24th 2013, ScatmanX, 4-0, Rw RESTORATION Goblins
    * November 24th 2013, GoboLord, 4-1, Rb WInstigator Goblins
    * December 7th 2013, GoboLord, 4-1, Rb WInstigator Goblins
    * December 10th 2013, Sockosensei, 1-2, Rb Winstigator Goblins
    * December 17th 2013, cooljets, 1-3, Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    * December 28th 2013, mrblueduck, 3 reports, 3 decklists
    * December 18th 2013, Sandro95, 3-1, Rb CLASSIC Goblins
    * December 24th 2013, Dice_Box, 2-0-1, Rb BIDDING Goblins
    * December 28th 2013, Chatto, 3-2-1, Rw CLASSIC Goblins
    * December 30th 2013, GoboLord, 4-3, Rb WInstigator Goblins
    * January 9th 2014, AlbyLegacy, 5-1, MonoR Goblins w/o manadenial
    * January 10th 2014, Olaf Forkbeard,3-1, Rgw CLASSIC Goblins
    * January 10th 2014, BaroqueW, 1-3, Rb WInstigator Goblins
    * January 13th 2014, prateta, 3-3, Rw Goblins
    * January 15th 2014, LeoCop 90, 3-3, Rg CLASSIC Goblins
    * January 17th 2014, Olaf Forkbeard, 2-2, Rwg Purphoros Goblins
    * January 19th 2014, Sandro95, 3-2, Rb CLASSIC Goblins
    * January 23rd 2014, BaroqueW, 2-2, Rb CLASSIC Goblins
    * January 25th 2014, Sandro95, 5-2-1, Rb CLASSIC Goblins
    * February 2nd 2014, jrw1985, 2-2, Rw THALIA Goblins
    * February 12th, BaroqueW, 2-2 Rb PURPHOROS Goblins
    * February 14th, Kayradis, 2-2 Rw CLASSIC Goblins
    * February 15th, Perfettini, 5-0-1 MonoR CLASSIC Goblins
    * February 20th, Sandro95, 3-1 Rb CLASSIC Goblins
    * February 21st, Thagaste, 6-3 MonoR CLASSIC Goblins
    * February 23rd, GoboLord, 1-4 Rb Winstigator Goblins


    b) Good Reads
    * 5 tricky Legacy interactions
    * Painting the Town REB
    * The performance of the "Average Decklist" by jrw1985
    * Analysis of successful goblin decklists, pt.1 by GoboLord
    * Hot Topics of Vial Goblins by GoboLord
    * Analysis of successful goblin decklists, pt.2, by GoboLord
    * Analysis of successful goblin decklists, final part, by GoboLord
    * Goblins Are Great But Haters Gonna Hate, by Kenny Dungar
    * No One Survives, by Necorgoblikon
    * Testing results (updated on a regular basis) by cronos
    * "JUDGE!" - More tricky Legacy interactions
    * "JUDGE!" - More tricky Legacy interactions Part 3


    Thank you for reading my primer,

    GoboLord
    Last edited by GoboLord; 02-24-2014 at 12:58 PM.
    Mountain Caverns, Lackey, Go.

    If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.

  2. #2
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Nice work! I knew you'd end up doing a primer sooner or later!
    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    [B][SIZE="5"]
    Untested cards
    * Ratchet Bomb
    * Sensation Gorger
    * Mad Auntie
    * Summoning Trap
    I tested:
    Ratchet Bombs, and they're not bad, but are just slow as hell. If someone wants to play them, need to play a 4off, otherwise it'll be just a bad topdeck.
    Mad Auntie, and it is a really good card, but depends heavely on the build. If you want to play it, 2-3 would be the number. It gives you "infinite" blockers, and you don't have to worry about losing your Piledriver when attacking.
    Summoning Trap, but only in a Food Chain build. Here it would be fun, but our sideboard is thit as it is already. It's awesome against Stax/Stompy (and Chalice of the Void) -> don't know if works though.

    You can include Slavering Nulls on the bad cards. It just not as good as any 2 drop we have acess to...
    Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.

  3. #3

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Thanks for posting the new primer. I think the effectiveness of Earwig Squad is being exaggerated vs storm combo though. The good storm decks in the format have 1 Tendrils plus 4 Burning Wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    [card]Earwig Squad[/card] is so far the only Goblin-shaped combohate. If he hits Tendrils-stormcombo decks he wins us the game one-handedly (most deck don’t run more than 3 combo-enablers). The drawback is obviously his relatively “high” cost, therefore he shouldn’t be the only hate we have.
    EDIT: Unless you're talking combo engines, in which case they still have Ad Nauseam and 4 Burning Wish, many also have IGG. It shouldn't ever single-handedly win the game.

  4. #4
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Very nice. Thanks Gobolord (and FoulQ, and ScatmanX). This has been a long time in coming.
    Quote Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
    The Reserved List is a) not legally binding, b) antiquated, c) broken, and d) preventative of maximum game enjoyment. Wizards will remove as many cards from that list as possible to increase the fun of their game. Using market research, they can find a balance between printing enough cards to lower a price from $40 to $15-$20, and not utterly ruining their value. This will be both an economically feasible AND sensible move.
    -ktkenshinx-

  5. #5
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Doomsday View Post
    Thanks for posting the new primer. I think the effectiveness of Earwig Squad is being exaggerated vs storm combo though. The good storm decks in the format have 1 Tendrils plus 4 Burning Wish.
    Ari Lax took top 16 last SCG open with AdNausem Tendrils last weekend, with only 1 Tendrils for kill, 0 Wishes.
    I agree that Squad is way weaker against TES, but the deal is that it is still good against other archetypes, while being playable against TES too.
    Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.

  6. #6
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Love the new primer and like the push for the new structure of decklists. Can a mod kill/archive the old thread and then rename this one without the 2.0? It makes it sound like its a new Goblins deck when really its just a new primer.
    Only the heroic and the mad follow mountain goat trails.

  7. #7
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    As a new player to Legacy/Goblins, this guide was very helpful. Since my last post got deleted for some reason, I'll say thanks again for all the good work.

    Thoughts (for anyone to answer):

    I like the new way of presenting decks as long as people agree on the core, which is pretty well-established (except for maybe the # of SGC). However, instead of doing math, maybe one could just post the new number if there are any changes, and the rest are assumed at 4 (or 2 in SGC's case)?
    eg:
    //Core [24]:
    3 Piledriver
    3 SGC
    ...

    Either way accomplishes the same thing, I just think it saves a step and makes listing/reading/comparisons even easier and more immediately understandable. I also would advocate ellipses at the end just for clarity.



    Is there ever a reason to run <4 Warchiefs?

    Is Chieftain mainly defensive as an answer to plague/clasm/spout/etc, or does he also have offensive utility significant enough for inclusion of 1-3? In other words, how does his usefulness vary when playing aggro vs playing control?

    tiny errors:
    [b]jrw1985[/i]
    [cards]Phyrexian Dreadnought[cards]
    [cards]Earwig Squad[/card]

    Auntie's Hovel vs Blood Crypt: Crypt is fetchable (sounds like a bad idea to me?), but Hovel is almost always free when you need her. Why is BC considered better?

    Can we add Goblin Wardriver to the list of bad cards?

    oh, I just realized the page numbers depend on your forum settings. That's why links in my email/the primer weren't working... silly me.

    lastly, perhaps a couple sample decklists, and matchup analyses/boarding suggestions?

    Thanks again for this.
    My currently-played decks (feedback welcome and appreciated!)
    Gobbyboogers - Pauper MUCkyfish - Deadguys

  8. #8
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    i agree with Caspid above, a couple of sample deck lists should be presented. This can be the ones that finished first on the Legacy open last month.

    This can also serve as an 'ego-boost' for returning old gob players and an encouragement to new ones, that goblins is still damn relevant in the scene.

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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    I seen sometimes Goblin Settler its very rare but sometimes resonable choice in flexi slots as additional mana danial card. All lists with them also had Kiki to him. Probably its win more card but i see him as useful in some MU like Lands with Recurring Chasm.

  10. #10
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Caspid View Post
    Can we add Goblin Wardriver to the list of bad cards?
    I don't think we can do that right now. No one even tested him.
    When Mogg Warmarchall first came off, tons of people told it was bad. Now almost everyone plays him.
    There are also cards that only a couple of people play, like Frogtosser Banneret, but they have had good results with it (like Media12345).
    So I think it's a little early to say set it in stone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    I seen sometimes Goblin Settler its very rare but sometimes resonable choice in flexi slots as additional mana danial card. All lists with them also had Kiki to him. Probably its win more card but i see him as useful in some MU like Lands with Recurring Chasm.
    Settler just look bad in so many way. If you could exemplify situations where you think it could be good by himself... but I doubt it could.
    Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.

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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    ... (reading before posting improvements is tech)

  12. #12
    Amen, brotha.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Nice read.

    I think I might test Sensation Gorger when I get a chance, he looks like he has a lot of potential in the right build.
    I'm wondering, though. 1-of, 2-of, 3-of, 4-of? The build would definitely run as many Goblins as possible, meaning something like 22 Lands, 4 Vials, 34 Goblins.
    This looks like a job for me.

    Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.

  13. #13
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidd View Post
    Nice read.

    I think I might test Sensation Gorger when I get a chance, he looks like he has a lot of potential in the right build.
    I'm wondering, though. 1-of, 2-of, 3-of, 4-of? The build would definitely run as many Goblins as possible, meaning something like 22 Lands, 4 Vials, 34 Goblins.
    What exactly are you trying to improve when you want to test Sensation Gorger? Yes its card advantage for you (and your opponent) but with your proposed numbers, Ringleader should be enough right, especially if you can Matron it?
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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  14. #14
    Amen, brotha.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    What exactly are you trying to improve when you want to test Sensation Gorger? Yes its card advantage for you (and your opponent) but with your proposed numbers, Ringleader should be enough right, especially if you can Matron it?
    I really don't know. Gorger has a backbreaking effect - when you untap wih him and flip a Goblin (which would happen in >50% of the times), your opponent will suddenly see his hand taken away from him and he gets handed 4 new cards - if he is a Control deck, he will likely have lost 1-2 cards and might have lost a bomb he had on his hand. If he's Aggro, you don't have to use the ability.
    Maybe one could use him instead of Chieftain, but their applications are quite different and I don' think comparing them is worth it.
    This looks like a job for me.

    Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.

  15. #15
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    What exactly are you trying to improve when you want to test Sensation Gorger? Yes its card advantage for you (and your opponent) but with your proposed numbers, Ringleader should be enough right, especially if you can Matron it?
    I think the most attractive thing about him ist that you can decide twice during his effect: First wether to look at the top card or not and then wether to reveal it or not.
    With the information about the top card you can make good decisions on paying Echocosts, ticking up your vial, using Volrath's Stronghold in upkeep, using a fetchland or not...
    You don't have to use it's effect all the time and that's excatly what makes him threatening for you opponent: he never knows how or IF to prepare for him.
    A nice trick would also be to bounce a creature via Stingscourger EOT and then let your opp discard his hand at the next upkeep.
    Mountain Caverns, Lackey, Go.

    If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.

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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Sensation Gorger is pretty awesome in that with him in play you are basically drawing 5 cards a turn (4 from him, and 1 in your Draw step). Unfortunately he's also pretty expensive at 3cc, he doesn't contribute much on offense, has a pretty small butt so he's very burnable, his ability doesn't always work (I'm not adding Top for him), and he needs to be in play at the beginning of your upkeep, so he's pretty slow too. But the worst part is that he lets your opponent draw 4 new cards which greatly increases their chances of drawing their E Plague or Moat or that Propaganda they boarded in. Also, considering so much of Goblins' game is mana denial it seems that letting your opponent draw extra lands messes up your own strategy. Bottom line - Goblins has enough ways to draw cards without letting our opponent do the same. We don't need Sensation Gorger.

  17. #17
    Siege-Gang Commander
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    I think you might wanna add: Bloodmark Mentor. I think that he was already discussed in the old threat. He's a pretty good tutor target vs Merfolk and Elves (and maybe even the mirror).

    While we are brainstorming about Sensation Gorger... he has pretty neat synergy with Countryside Crusher.

  18. #18
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Good job and thank to the new primer :)
    But small critics ^^
    -Id like to have 3 sample goblin lists there, too. A monoR, RG, RB Version. Also it would be nice to have a short introduction to the pro and cons of the different splashes.
    -The explanaition of WarrenWeirding is a little bit to negative imo, maybe you add the biggest pro. (kills emrakul, progenitus Iona and other tough creatures)
    -I found PlanarVoid always a good gh sb option for b splash. It completely shuts down every graveyard interaction, including goyf, its fast and can quickly be recast if bounced. Maybe you add that card :)
    -maybe some links to some of the card discussions we had, especially the whole combo sb stuff
    -no word about kikijiki vs sgc'? ^^
    -some iconic picture at the heading would pimp the primer :D
    Got tired of Legacy and you like drafts? Try my Paupercube What?

  19. #19
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
    -Id like to have 3 sample goblin lists there, too. A monoR, RG, RB Version. Also it would be nice to have a short introduction to the pro and cons of the different splashes.
    My RB Goblins list


    // Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

    // Lands
    4 [R] Badlands
    4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
    4 [MPR] Wasteland
    4 [ON] Mountain (3)
    3 [MM] Rishadan Port
    2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
    1 [ALA] Swamp (3)

    // Creatures
    3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
    4 [US] Goblin Lackey
    4 [7E] Goblin Matron
    4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
    4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
    4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
    2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
    1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
    1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
    1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
    4 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal

    // Spells
    4 [DS] AEther Vial
    2 [MOR] Warren Weirding

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
    SB: 3 [6E] Perish
    SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
    SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
    SB: 2 [ON] Patriarch's Bidding
    SB: 3 [US] Meltdown


    SB is in flux at all times, depending on the meta I'm playing at. Also about to attempt a s green splash to deal with enchantments in my local meta, since no major tourneys are coming up. I'll post my 3 color list after this weekend when we brainstorm it.

  20. #20
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Id put winning lists in the primer, but tanks for sharing ;)

    but..

    well its kind of a new/old discussion, but i actually dont see any benefits for rb atm

    the only black card the deck usually runs is weirdings which got cut down to 2 or even 1 (stingscourger fits the same role often)
    than it has very few sb slots that are superior to non splashes (perish vs kinesis and black gyhate vs artifacts)

    that is paid with lifeloss (fetches) and a weaker manabase (stifles/wastelands, pop)

    green has at least the always useful disenchateffect

    but really, id run monoR atm, even if it hurts me alot, cuz i got my rb pimped out


    my standard red build.gobbo


    // Lands
    4 [MM] Rishadan Port
    14 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain
    4 [TE] Wasteland

    // Creatures
    4 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
    3 [M11] Goblin Chieftain
    4 [V09] Goblin Lackey
    4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
    4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
    4 [EVG] Goblin Ringleader
    4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
    2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
    3 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
    2 [PLC] Stingscourger

    // Spells
    4 [V10] AEther Vial

    // Sideboard
    SB: 2 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
    SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
    SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
    SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
    SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
    SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
    SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
    Got tired of Legacy and you like drafts? Try my Paupercube What?

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