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Thread: [Deck] Goblins

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    [Deck] Goblins

    Deckprimer Vial-Goblins

    0. Update notes

    August 16th 2016
    * updated chapter IV. Matchups and Strategy, adding Carpet of Flowers as relevant SB card in Tempo matchups
    * updated chapter V. Outside the Box, refreshing the list of already tested cards and To-be-tested cards

    August 15th 2016
    * updated the tournament report section
    * added Jim Davis' podcast to "Literature"

    March 28th 2016
    * reworked the chapter about "IV. Matchupd & Sideboarding"
    * removed the description of the "Thalia" list
    * updated the tournament report section
    * killed some typos and weird choice of words

    August 26th 2015
    * tournament reports are up-to-date now

    May 31st 2015
    * tournament reports are up-to-date now
    * removed 'UR Delver' from the matchup chapter

    November 3rd 2014
    * updated the tournament report section
    * reserved space for "URx Treasure Cruise Delver" in the Matchups and Sideboarding section

    June 17th 2014
    Re-structured the opening post. It should now be easier to read. I also wrote a whole new paragraph about the three subarchetypes of Goblins and added a lot of pictures.

    February 24th 2014
    * updated the tournament report section

    February 6th 2014
    * updated the tournament report section
    * minor changes to the ""To-be-tested" card list

    November 13th 2013
    * updated the tournament report section
    * changed the layout and position of the update notes
    * added cronos' testing results to the "Literature/Good Reads"

    I borrowed several ideas for the structure of the primer from Bryant cook’s deckprimer about The Epic Storm.
    Thank you to everyone who is visting this thread on a regular basis. Your constructive comments and the positive atmosphere make the thread what it is today.

    I. Introduction
    a) History
    b) Strategy
    c) Why should I play Goblins?
    II. Maindeck
    a) Mana
    b) The Core
    c) Staples
    III. The two faces of Vial-Goblins
    a) The CLASSIC goblindeck
    b) The WINSTIGATOR list
    IV. Matchups & strategy
    V. Outside the Box
    a) Already tested, bad cardchoices
    b) To-be-tested cards
    VI. Literature
    a) Tournament Reports
    b) Good Reads


    I. Introduction

    a) History
    Here is a brief outline of the deck’s development.
    Vial Goblins exists since the very beginning of the format Legacy. It came to life with the printing of Goblin Warchief, Goblin Piledriver, Siege-Gang Commander, Goblin Sharpshooter and Gempalm Incinerator – all of which were included in the Onslaught block. Later, Aether Vial was released which made the deck one of the most dominant decks in the format. The deck gradually lost it’s dominant position with the power-creep that creatures since the Ravnica-block are experiencing. In 2011 with the release of Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull the deck was once again said to be “dead”. Goblins faced the problem that any creature-based strategy was more efficient: while Goblins always relied on their synergistic abilities to spam high CMC creatures like Ringleader and Siege-Gang Commander, other creature-based strategies were able to just play with any combination of cards that were strong in their own rights while having very low mana-costs.
    However, people didn’t lose interest in Goblins. Less than one year later (spring of 2012) some players were coming up with innovative decklists and strategies to compete in the meta. Then, in May 2012 we were blessed with the printing of Cavern of Souls which initiated a comeback for Vial Goblins.

    b) Strategy
    So what do Goblins do? Goblins have two major strategies: (1) beating our opponents as fast as possible and (2) grinding out games to win in late game via card- (and board-) advantage. The first strategy is made possible by a combination of Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, and Goblin Piledriver, while the latter strategy makes use of the huge card-advantage which the deck can create with cards like Goblin Matron, Ringleader and Mogg War Marshal. Which strategy to use is highly dependent from the matchup (MU) and the meta – oftentimes you will find yourself using a mixture of both roles even in the same game.

    c) Why should I play Goblins?
    Most of all, you should play goblins when you are looking for a deck that can beat control decks on a regular basis. In this sense Vial Goblins is a meta deck. You will realize that there are goblin-friendly metas and goblin-hostile metas. Goblins rewards knowledge of the metagame because the deck has a relatively large number of playable cards in the MD as well as in the SB that you can or cannot use to tune your deck for the metagame you are expecting. Goblins is also a deck with many faces: there is not ONE, but at least TWO “stock-lists” all of which have a different strategy and perform differently against the field. This makes it hard for your opponents to get a good grasp on the deck. Next, Goblins is a very old deck and many newer players won’t know how to play against it. You should also play Goblins when you are looking for a deck that does not punish you badly when you aren’t playing 100% correct. That is not to say that the deck is so strong that it will beat many decks while your brain is on ‘standby-mode’. Rather this means that its skillcap is not very high and its decision trees are less complex than with other decks. While skill is not a big issue during games, it definitely is an issue for deckbuilding. As I said, there are plenty of ‘playable’ cards, but it is essential that your cardchoices really fit the metagame requirements. This will come back at you when you have to decide whether to play, let’s say, Goblin Chieftain or Goblin Warchief. The devil is in the details. So, you should also play Goblins if you are willing to invest some time in working out the details of the deck (the first step has been set once you fought yourself through this deckprimer).

    II. The Maindeck

    a) Mana

    Let’s talk about mana first. Goblins is a very mana-hungry deck which needs to be provided with lands in the first three turns to ensure a fast and solid start. The high manacosts of cards like Ringleader and manaconsuming abilities like those of Rishadan Port “force” us to play a number of lands: 22-24. (Note that successful attempts have been made to run 20 or 21 mana-sources. However those cases are rare and usually only run smoothly in well balanced decklists. So for starters I’d advice to run 23 lands).
    Mana-denial is an important part of Goblins’ gameplan. This is why a playset of Wastelands + X Rishadan Ports find their way into most Goblin-lists. Apart from purely shutting our opponents off a single color, manadenial lands can be used to deal with problematic cards like:
    * so-called ‘manlands’: Mishra’s Factory, Mutavault and Creeping Tar Pit
    * Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
    * Grove of the Burnwillows (in combo with Punishing Fire)
    Cavern of Souls is an auto-include in every Goblin-decklist. The default number if 4 copies.
    As far as splash colors are concerned, success has been reported with EVERY additional color. Given the limited space, there is usually room for only 1-3 duallands to support your splashcolor. Also, don’t hesitate to play a mono red deck. Approximately 95% of the deck is red, even in multicolored lists. Playing Mono Red is not a question of low budget. By default you should build your deck mono-red. Only if you need certain cards (mostly SB cards) that are not red or colorless, you can think about splashing colors.
    Other prominent utility lands in Goblins are [cards]Pendelhaven[/cards (which protects Lackey from Punishing Firean pumps it to get past early blockers like Deathrite Shaman and Delver of Secrets) and Karakas (which protects your own legenadaries like Krenko and Kiki-Jiki; and bounces legendaries comonly played in Legacy, like Iona and Griselbrand).

    b) The Core


    Vial is one of the reasons why such a fast aggro deck can approve such high-CMC-creatures as Matron and Ringleader. Oftentimes Vial is ticked up every round, whereas one should carefully consider adding more than three counters.
    Did you know that?
    Vial has an upkeep-trigger that reads “you may put a charge counter on Aether Vial”. Therefore one should announce the trigger in each and every upkeep (you will NEVER forget that after a while) and then carefully think whether to add another counter or not. E.g.: It’s our mainphase and we control Vial with 2 counters on it (@2) – we have a Mogg War Marshal, Piledriver and Ringleader on our hand and we want to cheat all of them through our opponent’s counterspells. Actually we must leave Vial @ 2 for two rounds to do that. At the end of our opponent’s turn we tap Vial to bring in Piledriver. In our next upkeep we announce the may-trigger and tap Vial in response to bring in MWM – after that, Vial’s trigger resolves and we add another counter. So, in our next upkeep we can decide to bring in any cc3 Goblin or the Ringleader that is waiting on our hand.




    Caverns, Lackey, Go – the best T1-play our deck has. His threatening, triggered ability enables fast and aggressive starts, even turn-3-kills. On the other hand he does very often not “connect” because opponents will try everything to throw removal, counter or Stifle at him. Placing creatures in his way is oftentimes a plan-B, because the creature in question could be removed to make sure that Lackey get’s the party started.
    Did you know that?
    Lackey’s oracle-text reads that he can bring in goblin-permanents, whereas Warren Instigator can only bring in goblin-creatures. This fact is often irrelevant because most goblin-permanents have legs anyways. Also there is a nice interaction with Rakdos Charm that doesn't work for Warren Instigator.




    Goblin Matron, along with Goblin Ringleader, is the backbone of the deck. Most often you will fetch a Goblin Ringleader with her ability, but you can also choose any other goblin, depending on what is needed at the moment she enters the battlefield. E.g. fetch Goblin Chieftain to counter Engineered Plague, or Tuktuk Scrapper to destroy that pesky equipment.
    Did you know that?
    …a foil Goblin Matron is only available in the 7th Edition and costs a whole lot of money.
    It’s also good to know that Goblin Matron’s triggered ability is obligatory. That means that (1) if you forget to fetch a creature and move on to the next step of the turn, your opponent can be a dick and not allow you to still fetch a creature afterwards. That’s not the case with triggers that must be resolved, i.e. such abilities without the word “may”. (2) When Matron is the only card in your hand and you have a Vial @3 and your opponent plays a discard spell, like Thoughtseize, you can put Matron into play without having to look for something to put into your hand. Also, you can search your library and declare NOT TO FIND ANYTHING, in case you want to shuffle your library.




    Sometimes this guy just reads “draw 4 cards”. Ringleader has an immediate impact on the game by potentially creating huge card advantage. At the very least he will replace himself (that is: you invest one card to get one card in return), but most of the time he creates raw card advantage. This card advantage ultimately leads to board advantage (most cards you reveal are creature cards), which means that you are winning the game. It is also important to play as many goblins as possible (34 goblins is the maximum number with 22 lands and 4 Aether Vials) in your maindeck to make the best card of the deck even better.
    Did you know that?
    Ringleader never lets you down. Have you ever revealed 4 lands in a row? Yes, almost certainly. Have you ever been disappointed about this fact? You shouldn’t! Everytime Ringleader reveals 0 Goblin cards, ask yourself how the game would have turned out if you had drawn those cards for the next 4 turns! However he usually should reveal 3 Goblin cards, with 4 and 2 cards lying within standards, while 0 or 1 is highly unlikely.



    Okay, let’s take a short break here and see what we have so far.
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Wasteland
    14 other lands

    4 Aether Vial
    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader

    22 other cards
    How you fill the remaining 14 land-slots and which set of spells you choose for the MD is dependent from the metagame you are playing in. In other words: these slots are very flexible. What follows now is an explanation of proven subtypes of Goblin decks as well as a list of playable and un-playable cards.

    c) Staples

    Hastey goblins are happy goblins. Both, Goblin Warchief and Goblin Chieftain, make the deck more explosive and much harder to deal with. Players usually spend 4-7 slots on 'hastelords' Goblin Warchief and Goblin Chieftain, whereas Goblin Warchief is the more popular choice. I personally favor Goblin Cieftain, because the additional power it adds to the boar will not only let you deal more unblocked damage, but it will also make you trade less resources in combat situations.
    Suggested reading about Warchief and Chieftain: here.
    Cards you should NOT run instead: Goblin King, Mad Auntie, Goblin Wardriver, Frogtosser Banneret, Goblin Lookout




    Piledriver is a common choice for the deck. His insane triggered ability causes heavy damage to opponents lifepoints, when unblocked. However this is often not the case, since opponents place creatures and removal in his way. Piledriver supports aggressive strategies and makes the deck more explosive. His triggered ability checks the number of Goblins on resolution. This has two implications: (1) Stifle turn an attacking PD into a Squire and (2) your opponent can destroy (or remove) goblins in response to the triggered ability and still weaken your PD. People usually run 2-4 copies of Piledriver in their decklists, for starters 4 should be the default option. I am in favor of 4 copies as well, as long as you are not expecting to face a ridicoulous amount of non-blue creatures.




    Gempalm Incinerator is the most common spotremoval of choice in Goblin lists and usually a 4-off. It trades 0 for 1 (in the worst case 0:0) with other creatures, can’t be counterered by ordinary countermagic, and even has a body to block/attack with. One should carefully count all Goblins in play (even Mutavault is a Goblin once in a while) and take opponent’s removal into account (which can decrease the number of Goblins in play while Gempalm’s ability is on the stack) before using cycling. Cycling is an activated ability that can be used at instant-speed. This means that, since it is an ability, not a spell, Force of Will and Daze won’t work on Cycling. Cards with cycling usually have an additional triggered ability printed on it, that triggers when you cycle the card (which is the case with thishere card).
    The problem with Gempalm Incinerator is, that you need a decent board position to effectively kill a targeted creature. In some MUs it is hardly possible to develop such a board position which means that you sometimes need removal spells that are dealing damage more reliably. Tarfire is an alternative for such situations (e.g. when most of the creatures in your metagame are power 2 or less and are to be dealt with immediately and reliably).
    By default you should play 3 copies of Gempalm Incinerator.
    Suggested reading about Lightning Bolt (and Tarfire for that matter), click here.
    Cards you should NOT run instead: Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Mogg Fanatic

    Goblin Sharpshooter is another common choice for Goblin decks. Sharpshooter helps in the mirror-match, against hordes of Elves and counters a lot of strategies that rely on x/1 creatures (oftentimes tokens), such as Thopter Foundry, Empty the Warrens, Elspeth, Bitterblossom and Lingering Souls. He also has interactions with SGC, Stingscourger and Mogg War Marshal. A card typically found alongside with Sharpshooter is Skirk Prospector (also as a 1-off). Although Goblin Sharpshooter is typically played 1-off, it is way more effective when playied in multiples of 2 (or even 3 to 4) copies. The reason is that (1) your opponent will only expect to see one, so after he kills the first one he doesn't really have the resources, nor is he prepared to deal with a second one. (2) Second, with multiple Sharpshooters you will be more likely to draw him naturally rather than spending a Matron-trigger to find one. It is very inefficient to spend 6 mana on a creatures that your opponent can deal with right away. This is different when you fetch creatures like Ringleader who have an immediate impact at the moment they enter the battlefield.
    Sparksmith is another, tap-for-damage-spell that you can use multiple times. The downsides are basically the same as with Gempalm Incinerator with the addition that your opponent will oftentimes see him coming. The fact that he eats your lifepoints has surprisingly little impact on the game, especially when you consider what you get in return.
    Cards you should NOT run instead: Lightning Crafter





    Stingscourger is a typical 1-off (or silverbullet), which gives you the flexibility to bounce huge blockers and go for the alpha strike. He is also a popular choice in fields where SneakShow decks are around, since it effectively counters their Show and Tell. Even Emrakul, isn’t protected against this card, as the spagetthi monster will be sent back by an ability, not by a spell. Another nice thing about this ‘removal’ spell is that it usually circumvents countermagic with Aether Vial or Cavern of Souls (or Show and Tell).
    If you want a card that actually handles large creatures permanently you are probably looking for Warren Weirding. It is only comparable to Stingscourger in that it is usually meant to handle the big guys, but other than that the cards are quite different in how you manage them during the game. That is Warren Weirding is usually not run instead of, but in addition to, Stingscourger.
    Cards you should NOT run instead: Goblin Tunneler



    1-off artifact hate is commonly seen in Goblin-decklists. The most important reason is flexibility. Artifact hate in MD is basically never irrelevant because decks today are rarely artifact-free. The most prominent reason to run those so-called Shatter-Goblins is, of course, equipments. If your list is green, Tin Street Hooligan is an alternative to Tuktuk Scrapper
    Suggested reading on Tin Street Hooligan and Tuktuk Scrapper: Hot Topics of Vial Goblins
    Cards you should NOT run instead: Goblin Tinkerer, Goblin Vandal





    Goblins also play a number of cards that are supposed to end the game immediately (or at the very least ‘snowball’ pretty fast). For a very long time, Siege-Gang Commander (SGC) was the post popular choice for this. Besides bringing 4 bodies into play, SGC can also throw your Goblins over a Moat, or break boardstates that are otherwise stalled. Its activated ability is also useful to prevent equipments like Batterskull and Umezawa’s Jitte from triggering their abilities. Ever since the printing of Krenko, there is a discussion about which one is better, or if they are just differently used while being on approximately the same power level. And that is really something you have to find out yourself, as there is no straight answer to this issue yet. As a rule of thumb you can say that the more ‘haste-lords’ your deck has, the more likely it is that Krenko is better than SGC in your list. Another, very viable option is Kiki-Jiki which essentially gives you extra copies of the most essential Goblins in the deck: Matron and Ringleader, while he can also build up a critical boardposition with copies of Chieftain and Piledriver. And important ‘trick’ for Kiki-Jiki is to use his ability in your opponent’s turn after the “beginning of end step”. This way the copy will survive a whole turn, i.e. until your next endstep. The norm is to spare 2 slots on one or more of the creatures.
    Cards you should NOT run instead: Wort, Boggart Auntie, Beetleback Chief, Boggart Mob, Goblin Pyromancer


    III. The two faces of Vial-Goblins
    In the long history of Goblins, twodecklists have been established. In the following section I will discuss them one by one and provide sample-decklists that are as close to the basic of the respective subtype as possible. That means: there is no recipe how to build these two arechtypes, neither is there a set-in-stone 60-cards-MD . The lists I present serve as examples to show the advantages and disadvantages of each subtype.

    a) Face 1: The CLASSIC Goblin deck
    10 Mountain
    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Cavern of Souls

    16 Corecards (Vial, Lackey, Matron, Ringleader)

    4 Mogg War Marshal
    4 Goblin Piledriver
    4 Goblin Warchief
    4 Gempalm Incinerator
    2 Siege-Gang Commander

    1 Skirk Prospector
    1 Goblin Sharpshoorter
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    At first we are looking at the lands. The deck is monored and uses the full number of mana-denial lands. This has two important advantages. First, it is hard, if not impossible, for your opponent to mana-screw this deck as you have 10-14 red manasources, 10 of which are unaffected by any land destruction played in legacy, including Back to Basics and Bood Moon. Second, the lists is very good at punishing greedy, multicolored manabases – which will sometimes give you free wins just by tapping your lands. Another important element is the choice to play a full playset of Gempalm Incinerator, which goes hand in hand with 4 Mogg War Marshal. Gempalm Incinerator is, provided you have enough Goblins in play, the best removal spell available. It is uncounterable, it draws a card, it occasionally can be a creature and most importantly it is a Goblin. So why not play the best removal spell as a 4-off? Mogg War Marshal makes it possible. Mogg War Marshal works in perfect harmony with your manadenial: tapping lands with Rishadan Port can mean a timewalk – but only when you keep your opponents creatures in check. MWM does exactly that. Together they support a grindy strategy that gets the deck where it wants to be: turn 5. From that point on your card-advantage engine in form of Matron and Ringleader takes over to quickly outperform your opponent on all fronts: the hand and the board. Siege-Gang Commander is just another testament to the fact that the lategame will be yours and that you want to play grindy games, preferably with Aether Vial on turn 1. Those four cards I separated from the rest of the deck are silverbullets for your Matron-gun. Since your are going for the mid-and lategame it is essential to have answers to a variety of (un-)expected situations. After all this is legacy, which means that unexpected things will happen. Going for mid and lategame also has a huge drawback: this list is cold to basically any kind of fast combo deck.

    b) Face 2: The WInstigator list
    11 Mountain
    2 Wasteland
    2 Pendelhaven
    4 Cavern of Souls
    3 Chrome Mox

    16 Corecards

    4 Warren Instigator
    4 Goblin Piledriver
    4 Goblin Chieftain
    3 Tarfire

    2 Goblin Warchief
    1 Subterranean Scout
    1 Gempalm Incinerator
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    The two most defining elements of this list are Chrome Mox and Warren Instigator. Chrome Mox is not only used as a tool to dish out Warren Instigator on turn 1 (which effectively gives you 8 Goblin Lackeys, and who wouldn’t want that?). It also enables Goblin Chieftain/Warchief on turn 2 and Ringleaders as early as turn 3. It is essential to know which card to put under a Chrome Mox, which can be a real challenge on turn 1 or 2, but less so when you cast it later on. The combination of Winstigator, Chieftain and Chrome Mox makes the deck much more explosive and aggressive than the CLASSIC version. In contrary to those lists, WInstigator lists do not try to grind out games, but catch people off guard that can’t handle early aggression in form of Winstigators. The full playset of Piledrivers is a must. Chieftain is played in favor of Warchief because the cost reducing ability is less relevant: your list in general has more double-red manacosts (which is also a reason to cut Rishadan Ports) and you have Chrome Mox which partly makes up for the manaboost you want to get out of Warchief. A downside is that Chrome Mox creates card disadvantage, which you should usually be able to make up for. But still, there will be games where your opponent’s discard spells and the card you imprint for Chrome Mox add up to a critical degree. Another remarkable feature of those lists is that Gempalm Incinerators are cut to 2, sometimes even down to 0 copies. This is because the list is more focused on pushing through early Lackeys/Winstigators, and this strategy is best supported by reliable removal. In a world where 75% of the field is playing either Deathrite Shaman, and/or Stoneforge Mystic and/or Delver of Secrets Tarfire is more reliable than Gempalm Incinerator. Pendelhaven has recently proven to be a good card for Winstigator-lists.


    IV. Matchups & strategy (last update: 16/08/2016)

    In this section I will present my view on a number of relevant MUs as well as some suggestions how to play them right. I will try to update this regularly, but please keep in mind the date when I last edited the list. Also, this is but one view that is presented here, so please feel free to test the MUs yourself and work out strategies that are different from what I am presenting here.
    I am using the following five "ratings" for MUs.
    (1) favorable: most iterations of Goblins will have good chances of winning against most iterations of the deck in question. Usually you don’t need to reserve any SB cards for this MU.
    (2) slightly favorable: your chances of winning range from even to good, depending on your version of the deck as well as some SB cards
    (3) even: generally chances are evenly distributed. Sometimes the outcome if this is MU decided by certain MD or SB cards that you or your opponent are playing. Also, skill and experience will be a relevant factor.
    (4) slightly unfavorable: your list will need some specific tuning to win this MU. SB cards can turn the tides and drag the odds down to 50%. These MUs are usually what you need your SB cards for.
    (5) unfavorable: most iterations of your opponents deck will have good chances of beating yours. In some cases you can dedicate a lot of SB cards to make this MU even, but sometimes it is better to accept that you can’t beat every deck.

    Miracles – favorable
    How the matchups works: You have everything that they don’t want to see: a fast clock, creatures that they can’t counter, cardadvantage. There are two ways they can beat you: (1) a well-timed Entreat the Angels and (2) Monastery Mentor getting out of reach before you can remove it. The longer the games the more favored they are – so try to make it quick. Your plan is to establish a boardposition that can deal a minimum of 4 damage a turn, while holding Matron or Ringleader in your hand. You will pressure your opponent to find a Terminus during your attack step and then refill your resources with Ringleader on the second mainphase of the same turn. Matron should usually find Ringleader. Make sure to not let it get countered. After G1 you want to keep as many creatures in our deck as possible. Ideally you keep one or two removal spells after G1.
    Which version to pick: Both versions are equally well-equipped to beat Miracles. If you are playing the CLASSIC build, make sure not to overrate your Rishadan Ports but keep on casting creatures. When wielding the WINSTIGATOR list, make sure to resist temptation of overextending with Double-Strike triggers. Winstigator + Pendelhaven is a decent clock.
    Cards that support this strategy: Aether Vial, Cavern of Souls, Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Chieftain
    Meaningful SB cards: Earwig Squad, Pithing Needle

    Storm Combo – unfavorable
    How the matchups works: You can steal games by killing them on turn 3 or 4. However, your lack of disruptive elements usually makes you an easy target. When you evaluate your opening hands you should aim for a kill on turn 3 or 4. Every piece of hate should delay your opponent by at least 1 turn. If it doesn’t then don’t play it. Accept the idea of being killed on turn 1 or 2 without any interaction.
    Which version to pick: Neither version will have good times here. WINSTIGATOR lists are better equipped here as they are more likely to pull off turn-3 kills. Also, Chrome Mox helps casting hatepieces one turn earlier than usual.
    Cards that support this strategy: Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, Goblin Piledriver
    Meaningful SB cards: Chalice of the Void, Cabal Therapy, Ethersworn Canonist, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Thorn of Amethyst, Leyline of Sanctity

    Eldrazi Stompy – slightly favorable
    How the matchups works: In this MU your goal is to buy enough time until you can block their way with your hordes. Eldrazi Smasher and equipments stand in the way of that plan. Their major weakness is their manabase. Their best spells cost 4+ mana and demand colorless mana, so any form of manadisruption is effective. Try to read what cards they have in hand. You can read that from the amount of mana they have available and what cards they played last turn. Watch out for some interactions of their spells and lands. A few examples: Eye of Ugin doesn’t actually produce mana, but reduces the manacosts. So, no playing Jitte with Eye of Ugin. Make sure that they tap at least 1 colorless mana when casting their spells. Under a Bloodmoon they will usually not be able to cast any spell with <> in their manacosts. Over a course of several games you will be favored, as their manabase is shaky and their mulligan decisions are more difficult - their deck is less consistent than yours.
    Which version to pick: The CLASSIC build really shines here as it is able to run 8 manadenial lands. The WINSTIGATOR build is better in MUs where you want to win the early game – and Eldrazi Stompy is none of them, since their early game is much better than ours.
    Cards that support this strategy: Aether Vial, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Mogg War Marshal,
    Meaningful SB cards: Blood Moon, Pyrokinesis, Tuktuk Scrapper

    Shardless BUG – even
    How the matchups works: unlike most other deck, this creature-based deck has a cardadvantage engine that is as powerful as ours. Shardless Agent revealing Tarmogoyf or Ancestral Visions can put you in a very uncomfortable position. Additionally, early DRS blocking the way for Goblin Lackey, and Abrupt Decay destroying Aether Vial can steal your tempo and mana advantage. Our strength on the other turn is their weakness to Krenko, Mob Boss as they have only 1 or two cards in their 75 that can actually get rid of it. Also, in the absence of Tarmogoyf and Ancestral visions their board is usually weak and we will have enough time to develop a favorable boardposition. One more thing that many people might not notice: Tuktuk Scrapper can usually destroy one of their creatures, since Shardless Agent and Baleful Strix both are artifacts.
    Which version to pick: The CLASSIC version is in a better here, as Mogg War Marshal supports the above strategy better. Also, running Chrome Mox makes Hymn to Tourarch hurt you more and Liliana can become a problem as well when running Warren Instigator in the spot of Mogg War Marshal.
    Cards that support this strategy: Krenko, Mob Boss, Mogg War Marshal, Aether Vial, Goblin Matron, Goblin Ringleader, Gempalm Incinerator
    Meaningful SB cards: Relic of Progenitus, Rest in Peace, Perish

    BUG Delver – even
    How the matchups works: Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman and True-Name Nemesis will try to deal unblockable damage to your lifepoints while Tarmogoyf, Hymn to Tourarch and Liliana of the Veil will try to eat your resources so that you can’t handle their damage output. The rest of their deck is largely irrelevant as you can usually ignore their countermagic. Also their deck is light on removal spells so, unless you need to throw your creatures into a Tarmogoyf or Liliana, every creature that hits the board, stay on the board. Your plan is to create a large-enough cardadvantage, while killing Delver and Deathrite Shaman as early as possible. As with other tempo-decks, try to avoid unfavorable trades. On the long run your deck has a better stamina. At the same time you need to close out games fast enough, because their unblockable damage can stack up really fast and put your lifetotal in lethal range.
    Which version to pick: The CLASSIC version should have easier times surviving the early game. Just don’t focus too much on using your manadenial, but make sure to get some value on the board. The WINSTIGATOR list will be better at closing out games and switching from the control role to beatdown mode. However, as with Shardless BUG, Hymn to Tourarch and Liliana hit you harder when playing with Chrome Mox.
    Cards that support this strategy: Mogg War Marshal, Tarfire, Aether Vial, Goblin Piledriver, Krenko, Mob Boss
    Meaningful SB cards: Relic of Progenitus, Rest in Peace, Carpet of Flowers

    Grixis Tempo – slightly favorable
    How the matchups works: Very much like BUG Delver, this is another Tempo deck featuring the shell of Deathrite Shaman and Delver of Secrets, Force of Will, Daze and 8 cantrips. The most problematic card in this MU is Young Pyromancer, which can take over games from one turn to the next. Save a removal spell for this guy and you will be fine. With this MU you will have somewhat easier time getting ahead in early game as their creatures are initially very weak. Also, in comparison to BUG, Grixis usually doesn’t play any Abrupt Decays, which means that your Vial will stick on the board. In earlygame it is totally legit to trade your Lackey for Delver of Young Pyromancer. After G1 you will bring in some Pyrokinesis and/or Sharpshooter to counter their most effective wincondition, while they exchange some of their countermagic for more removal spells and probably discard.
    Which version to pick: Their deck operates well with a small amount of mana. In addition to that, grinding out games is not necessary. For these reasons the two major strength of the CLASSIC version don’t carry weight. The WINSTIGATOR list should be your version of choice, as it brings a very strong early game.
    Cards that support this strategy: Warren Instigator, Goblin Chieftain, Tarfire, Gempalm Incinerator
    Meaningful SB cards: Pyrokinesis, Goblin Sharpshooter, Carpet of Flowers

    Elves – slightly unfavorable
    How the matchups works: In game 1 they are clearly favored. On the way of assembling one of their combokills they can block the board with a bunch of 1/1 creatures and gain value with untaps, mana-abilities and bouncing their own creatures (like Elvish Visionary). Their most effective enablers are Quirion Ranger, Wirewood Symbiote and Heritage Druid – so usually you should kill of these first. It is very rare that you can slowly build up an advantage that you can ride to victory. The MU comes down to whether or not you can wipe their board with clean with Pyrokinesis, Goblin Sharpshooter or Perish, so your strategy should support finding one of these. Note that Chalice of the Void seems effective on first sight but in practice they will often be able to play around that.
    Which version to pick: The WINSTIGATOR list is the better choice as it support your plan of finding (and casting) boardsweepers better. Also, with Warren Instigator you have a doublestrike-creature that can engage in combat situations more easily.
    Cards that support this strategy: Chrome Mox, Warren Instigator
    Meaningful SB cards: Goblin Sharpshooter, Pyrokinesis, Perish, Pithing Needle, Cabal Therapy, Grafdigger’s Cage

    UG Infect – even
    How the matchups works: Your priority in this MU is to destroy their infect-creatures. Use your removal in your turn to make them use their pump-spells to protect their creatures, rather than killing you. They can kill you with only 2 pumpspells, but most often they will have to use 3. Due to their lack of removal and the very small amount of countermagic they play, build up a threatening boardposition is relatively easy for you. Other than that, there is not much to watch out for. Make sure to play safe and steady – don’t get greedy or do anything risky. The MU is already quite shaky.
    Which version to pick: WINSTIGATOR is better by a mile. The fact that they can’t interact with you building up a boardposition makes them an easy prey for Lackey and Warren Instigator. Plus, running Chrome Moxen comes at basically no cost, as the card-disadvantage will not carry any weight.
    Cards that support this strategy: Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, Tarfire, Gempalm Incinerator, Stingscourge
    Meaningful SB cards: Goblin Sharpshooter, Pyrokinesis, Chalice of the Void, Pithing Needle, Blood Moon

    Death & Taxes – favorable
    How the matchups works: The worst thing that can happen is that they have an equipment at a moment when you can’t deal with it yet. This would be the case when they have Stoneforge Mystic on turn 2 and you can’t kill SFM before the equipment comes down. Try to grind them out, make favorable trades (or even one-for-ones). We have a cardadvantage engine, while Death & Taxes is only able to generate CA via equipments. Other potentially problematic cards in their deck are Mother of Runes and Phyrexian Revoker (which shuts down a range of valuable cards).
    Which version to pick: Both versions will do equally well. The WINSTIGATOR version has easier times going into profitable combat situations, while the CLASSIC list is better at grinding out games until you get keycards on the table.
    Cards that support this strategy: Tarfire, Krenko, Mob Boss, Mogg War Marshal
    Meaningful SB cards: Tuktuk Scrapper, Pithing Needle, Goblin Sharpshooter, Pyrokinesis

    RG Combo Lands – even
    How the matchups works: It is relatively easy to keep them off their combo-kill with an untapped Wasteland. It takes them quite some effort and setup-time to still push it through your untapped Wasteland. Stingscourger is another valuable asset , which can save you even after Marit Lage hits the board. On the other hand they have very effective means of keeping from winning, including Grove of the Burnwillows + Punishing Fire, Maze of Ith and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Looking at all of this, your plan is to kill them as fast as possible, while having a Wasteland untapped. The longer the games lasts, the more likely they are to gain the upper hand. After G2 things don’t look so much different in their deck, but you will usually have a few cards to bring in.
    Which version to pick: The WINSTIGATOR list is the better choice, as it supports the plan of setting up a fast kill. Chrome MOX has no drawbacks in MUs where speed is your strongest asset. In addition to that Pendelhaven (which is more common in Winstigator builds) will mess with their Punishing Fire.
    Cards that support this strategy: Wasteland, Chrome Mox, Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, Goblin Piledriver, Stingscourger Pendelhaven.
    Meaningful SB cards: Blood Moon, Earwig Squad, Pithing Needle, Goblin Settler, Relic of Progenitus, Rest in Peace

    Sneak Show – slightly favorable
    How the matchups works: Get an Stingscourger or Goblin Matron on your hand as quickly as possible, as this will effectively shut down Show and Tell. The only card really left to care about is Sneak Attack. As with other combo decks, your plan is to kill they as fast as possible. Due to their lack of interaction with your setup (other than a little countermagic) you can usually go all-in. After Game 1 they will bring in some Pyroclasm and possibly Through the Breach (which work as additional copies of Sneak Attack). Your gameplan doesn’t change much though, only will you replace your spotremoval with some hatecards.
    Which version to pick: I don’t have experience with fighting this deck with the traditional list, but I assume both versions are well equipped to win. WINSTIGATOR’s strength is to end the game in a timely fashion, while the classic list has additional manadenial to delay the mana-intense winconditions of Sneak Attack and Through the Breach.
    Cards that support this strategy: Stingscourger, Goblin Matron, Chrome Mox, Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, Goblin Piledriver, Rishadan Port, Wasteland
    Meaningful SB cards: Pithing Needle, Goblin Settler, Cabal Therapy

    [Reanimator/TinFins – unfavorable
    How the matchups works: They can easily reanimate scary creatures on turn 2. Contrary to Stormdecks, their combo will not kill you on the same turn, but “only” make it very likely that they win. In game 1 you can get lucky and have Stingscourger in your opponing hand and they didn’t reanimate a creature that you can’t bounce (Iona#Red or Sphinx of the Steel Wind). However, this scenario will only buy you some time and doesn’t mean that you win. For G2 you can bring in some graveyard hate and/or combohate, while they won’t get any more dangerous than they already are.
    Which version to pick: If anything you can expect that the WINSTIGATOR list is better for this MU, but neither version will have good chances of winning.
    Cards that support this strategy: Stingscourger, Warren Weirding, Chrome Mox, Goblin Lackey, Warren Instigator, Goblin Piledriver
    Meaningful SB cards: any graveyard hate, Cabal Therapy, Chalice of the Void


    V. Outside the Box
    last update: 19/08/2016

    This paragraph will focus on the future of the deck inasmuch that I hope to inspire people to test unconventional cardchoices and report their results.

    a) Already tested, bad cardchoices
    * Fecundity
    * Goblin Guide
    * Brightstone Ritual (better cardchoices: Mountain)
    * Vexing Shusher
    * Volrath's Stronghold (better cardchoices: Mountain)
    * Mutavault (better cardchoices: Mountain)
    * Ancient Tomb (better cardchoices: Mountain)
    * Smoldering Spires (better cardchoices: any removal spell)
    * Soaring Seacliff (better cardchoices: any removal spell)
    * Basilisk Collar (better cardchoices: any removal spell)
    * Boros Charm (better cardchoices: any removal spell)
    * Deathrite Shaman (Reference)
    * Pestermite, Deceiver Exarch and Intruder Alarm (in combination with Kiki-Jiki
    (Reference)
    * Mirror Entity
    * Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
    * Contested War Zone (better cardchoices: Mountain)
    * Sensation Gorger
    * Summoning Trap (outdated due to Cavern of Souls)
    * Battle Squadron (better cardchoices: Krenko, Mob Boss)
    * Fodder Launch (better cardchoices: Krenko, Mob Boss)
    * Murderous Redcap (better cardchoices: Krenko, Mob Boss)
    * Shrieking Mogg (better cardchoices: Subterranean Scout)
    * Cover of Darkness (outdated due to Deathrite Shaman)
    * Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience (outdated)
    * Root Maze (better cardchoices: Thalia Heretic Cathar)

    b) To-be-tested cards:
    * Caller of the Claw
    * Tuktuk the Explorer
    * Bloodmark Mentor
    * Taurean Mauler
    * Chaos Warp
    * Gaea's Cradle
    * Gemstone Carvern

    VI. Literature

    a) Tournament Reports

    2015
    August, GoblinSettler 3-1 with Rg WINSTIATOR Goblins
    August, jrw1985 2-2 with Rb CLASSIC Goblins
    August, Meddling_Mage 5-2 with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    September, Raznaak 3-0-1 with Rwg Goblins
    September, jrw1985 4-0 with Mono R Goblins
    September, GoblinTurkey 3-0 with Rw Goblins
    September, jrw1985 6-0-1 with Mono R Goblins
    September, GoboLord 5-1 with Mono R WINSTIGATOR Goblins
    October, jrw1985 3-1 with Mono R Goblins
    October, Raznaak 1-4 with Rwg Goblins
    October, B-rad 6-2-1 with Rwg CLASSIC Goblins
    October, goblinpiledriver 1-3 with Rwgb CLASSIC Goblins
    October, OlegtheSupter 6-2 with Rw CLASSIC Goblins
    October, Sandro95 5-2-1 with Rb Goblins
    October, btraut 5-0 with Rw CLASSIC Goblins
    October, GoboLord 2-4 with Mono R WINSTIGATOR Goblins
    November, Raznaak 3-1 with Mono R WINSTIGATOR Goblins
    November, jrw1985 4-1-2 with Mono R Goblins
    November, GoblinTurkey 3-1 with Rw CLASSIC Goblins
    November, GoboLord 3-4 with Mono R WINSTIGATOR Goblins
    November, GoboLord 4-1 with Rb Goblins Goblins
    November, GoblinTurkey 3-4 with Rw CLASSIC Goblins
    December, MattPruner 3-4 with Rb CLASSIC Goblins
    December, jrw1985 0-2 with Rb Goblins
    December, B-rad 5-2-1 with Rwg CLASSIC Goblins

    2016
    January, Sandro95 0-2 with Rb Goblins
    January, Zombiesquisher 4-0 with Mono R Goblins
    January, Dan Pyre 6-1-1 with Mono R Goblins
    January, GoboLord 4-2 with Rb Goblins
    January, Diotram 5-2-1 with Rw CLASSIC Goblins
    February, mrblueduck 7-1-1 with Rb Goblins Goblins
    February, GoboLord 4-2 with Rb Goblins Goblins
    February, Sandro95 4-0 with Rb Goblins Goblins
    February, MattPruner 4-2 with Rb CLASSIC Goblins
    February, LeoCop 90 2-3 with Rb CLASSIC Goblins
    March, Sandro95 3-1 with Rb Goblins
    March, Sandro95 2-3 with Rb Goblins
    March, MattPruner 3-0 with Rb CLASSIC Goblins
    March, GoboLord 4-1-1 with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    April, Goblin Turkey 3-2 with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    April, GoboLord 4-1 with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    April, MattPruner 5-1 with Rb CLASSIC Goblins
    May, Sandro95 4-0 with Rb Goblins
    May, GoboLord 6-1-1 with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    May, Olaf Forkbeard 8-2-1 with Rwg CLASSIC Goblins
    May, B-rad 5-3 with Rwg CLASSIC Goblins
    May, jrw1985 4-2 with Rb CLASSIC Goblins
    June, ScatmanX 10-4-1 (Day 2 at GP Prague) with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    June, Chatto 2-4 with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    June, GoboLord 5-4 with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    June, GoboLord 3-0-2 with Mono R CLASSIC Goblins
    July, Zombiesquisher 3-1 with Rg CLASSIC Goblins
    July, Olaf Forkbeard 5-2 with Rwg CLASSIC Goblins




    VIDEOs

    Sandro95 @ Scandinavian Legacy Open Febuary 22nd 2015
    * Quarterfinals vs. Patriot Delver (2-0)
    * Semifinals vs. Grixis OmniShow (2-0)
    * Finals vs. BUG Foodchain (0-2)

    Podcast with Jim Davis on Goblins
    * Legacy's Allure - Ep. 12, Goblins with Jim Davis


    b) Good Reads
    * 5 tricky Legacy interactions
    * Painting the Town REB
    * The performance of the "Average Decklist" by jrw1985
    * Analysis of successful goblin decklists, pt.1 by GoboLord
    * Hot Topics of Vial Goblins by GoboLord
    * Analysis of successful goblin decklists, pt.2, by GoboLord
    * Analysis of successful goblin decklists, final part, by GoboLord
    * Goblins Are Great But Haters Gonna Hate, by Kenny Dungar
    * No One Survives, by Necorgoblikon
    * Testing results (updated on a regular basis) by cronos
    * "JUDGE!" - More tricky Legacy interactions
    * "JUDGE!" - More tricky Legacy interactions Part 3


    Thank you for reading my primer,

    GoboLord
    Last edited by GoboLord; 08-16-2016 at 03:10 AM.
    Mountain Caverns, Lackey, Go.

    If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.

  2. #2
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Nice work! I knew you'd end up doing a primer sooner or later!
    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    [B][SIZE="5"]
    Untested cards
    * Ratchet Bomb
    * Sensation Gorger
    * Mad Auntie
    * Summoning Trap
    I tested:
    Ratchet Bombs, and they're not bad, but are just slow as hell. If someone wants to play them, need to play a 4off, otherwise it'll be just a bad topdeck.
    Mad Auntie, and it is a really good card, but depends heavely on the build. If you want to play it, 2-3 would be the number. It gives you "infinite" blockers, and you don't have to worry about losing your Piledriver when attacking.
    Summoning Trap, but only in a Food Chain build. Here it would be fun, but our sideboard is thit as it is already. It's awesome against Stax/Stompy (and Chalice of the Void) -> don't know if works though.

    You can include Slavering Nulls on the bad cards. It just not as good as any 2 drop we have acess to...
    Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.

  3. #3

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Thanks for posting the new primer. I think the effectiveness of Earwig Squad is being exaggerated vs storm combo though. The good storm decks in the format have 1 Tendrils plus 4 Burning Wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    [card]Earwig Squad[/card] is so far the only Goblin-shaped combohate. If he hits Tendrils-stormcombo decks he wins us the game one-handedly (most deck don’t run more than 3 combo-enablers). The drawback is obviously his relatively “high” cost, therefore he shouldn’t be the only hate we have.
    EDIT: Unless you're talking combo engines, in which case they still have Ad Nauseam and 4 Burning Wish, many also have IGG. It shouldn't ever single-handedly win the game.

  4. #4
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Very nice. Thanks Gobolord (and FoulQ, and ScatmanX). This has been a long time in coming.
    Quote Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
    The Reserved List is a) not legally binding, b) antiquated, c) broken, and d) preventative of maximum game enjoyment. Wizards will remove as many cards from that list as possible to increase the fun of their game. Using market research, they can find a balance between printing enough cards to lower a price from $40 to $15-$20, and not utterly ruining their value. This will be both an economically feasible AND sensible move.
    -ktkenshinx-

  5. #5
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Doomsday View Post
    Thanks for posting the new primer. I think the effectiveness of Earwig Squad is being exaggerated vs storm combo though. The good storm decks in the format have 1 Tendrils plus 4 Burning Wish.
    Ari Lax took top 16 last SCG open with AdNausem Tendrils last weekend, with only 1 Tendrils for kill, 0 Wishes.
    I agree that Squad is way weaker against TES, but the deal is that it is still good against other archetypes, while being playable against TES too.
    Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.

  6. #6
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Love the new primer and like the push for the new structure of decklists. Can a mod kill/archive the old thread and then rename this one without the 2.0? It makes it sound like its a new Goblins deck when really its just a new primer.
    Only the heroic and the mad follow mountain goat trails.

  7. #7
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    As a new player to Legacy/Goblins, this guide was very helpful. Since my last post got deleted for some reason, I'll say thanks again for all the good work.

    Thoughts (for anyone to answer):

    I like the new way of presenting decks as long as people agree on the core, which is pretty well-established (except for maybe the # of SGC). However, instead of doing math, maybe one could just post the new number if there are any changes, and the rest are assumed at 4 (or 2 in SGC's case)?
    eg:
    //Core [24]:
    3 Piledriver
    3 SGC
    ...

    Either way accomplishes the same thing, I just think it saves a step and makes listing/reading/comparisons even easier and more immediately understandable. I also would advocate ellipses at the end just for clarity.



    Is there ever a reason to run <4 Warchiefs?

    Is Chieftain mainly defensive as an answer to plague/clasm/spout/etc, or does he also have offensive utility significant enough for inclusion of 1-3? In other words, how does his usefulness vary when playing aggro vs playing control?

    tiny errors:
    [b]jrw1985[/i]
    [cards]Phyrexian Dreadnought[cards]
    [cards]Earwig Squad[/card]

    Auntie's Hovel vs Blood Crypt: Crypt is fetchable (sounds like a bad idea to me?), but Hovel is almost always free when you need her. Why is BC considered better?

    Can we add Goblin Wardriver to the list of bad cards?

    oh, I just realized the page numbers depend on your forum settings. That's why links in my email/the primer weren't working... silly me.

    lastly, perhaps a couple sample decklists, and matchup analyses/boarding suggestions?

    Thanks again for this.
    My currently-played decks (feedback welcome and appreciated!)
    Gobbyboogers - Pauper MUCkyfish - Deadguys

  8. #8
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    i agree with Caspid above, a couple of sample deck lists should be presented. This can be the ones that finished first on the Legacy open last month.

    This can also serve as an 'ego-boost' for returning old gob players and an encouragement to new ones, that goblins is still damn relevant in the scene.

  9. #9
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    I seen sometimes Goblin Settler its very rare but sometimes resonable choice in flexi slots as additional mana danial card. All lists with them also had Kiki to him. Probably its win more card but i see him as useful in some MU like Lands with Recurring Chasm.

  10. #10
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Caspid View Post
    Can we add Goblin Wardriver to the list of bad cards?
    I don't think we can do that right now. No one even tested him.
    When Mogg Warmarchall first came off, tons of people told it was bad. Now almost everyone plays him.
    There are also cards that only a couple of people play, like Frogtosser Banneret, but they have had good results with it (like Media12345).
    So I think it's a little early to say set it in stone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    I seen sometimes Goblin Settler its very rare but sometimes resonable choice in flexi slots as additional mana danial card. All lists with them also had Kiki to him. Probably its win more card but i see him as useful in some MU like Lands with Recurring Chasm.
    Settler just look bad in so many way. If you could exemplify situations where you think it could be good by himself... but I doubt it could.
    Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.

  11. #11
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    ... (reading before posting improvements is tech)

  12. #12
    Amen, brotha.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Nice read.

    I think I might test Sensation Gorger when I get a chance, he looks like he has a lot of potential in the right build.
    I'm wondering, though. 1-of, 2-of, 3-of, 4-of? The build would definitely run as many Goblins as possible, meaning something like 22 Lands, 4 Vials, 34 Goblins.
    This looks like a job for me.

    Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.

  13. #13
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidd View Post
    Nice read.

    I think I might test Sensation Gorger when I get a chance, he looks like he has a lot of potential in the right build.
    I'm wondering, though. 1-of, 2-of, 3-of, 4-of? The build would definitely run as many Goblins as possible, meaning something like 22 Lands, 4 Vials, 34 Goblins.
    What exactly are you trying to improve when you want to test Sensation Gorger? Yes its card advantage for you (and your opponent) but with your proposed numbers, Ringleader should be enough right, especially if you can Matron it?
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    13NoVa plays Force of Will from his hand.
    Finglonger plays Spell Pierce from his hand.
    [10:22:43]  13NoVa: lol
    sure
    Finglonger points from his Dack Fayden to 13NoVa's Sol Ring.
    [10:23:04]  13NoVa: lol dumb ******; nice draws with retard.dec
    stupid cocksucker
    You have been kicked out of the game.

  14. #14
    Amen, brotha.
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    What exactly are you trying to improve when you want to test Sensation Gorger? Yes its card advantage for you (and your opponent) but with your proposed numbers, Ringleader should be enough right, especially if you can Matron it?
    I really don't know. Gorger has a backbreaking effect - when you untap wih him and flip a Goblin (which would happen in >50% of the times), your opponent will suddenly see his hand taken away from him and he gets handed 4 new cards - if he is a Control deck, he will likely have lost 1-2 cards and might have lost a bomb he had on his hand. If he's Aggro, you don't have to use the ability.
    Maybe one could use him instead of Chieftain, but their applications are quite different and I don' think comparing them is worth it.
    This looks like a job for me.

    Most of my posts will be written from my phone, so please excuse the eventual lack of proper typing.

  15. #15
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    What exactly are you trying to improve when you want to test Sensation Gorger? Yes its card advantage for you (and your opponent) but with your proposed numbers, Ringleader should be enough right, especially if you can Matron it?
    I think the most attractive thing about him ist that you can decide twice during his effect: First wether to look at the top card or not and then wether to reveal it or not.
    With the information about the top card you can make good decisions on paying Echocosts, ticking up your vial, using Volrath's Stronghold in upkeep, using a fetchland or not...
    You don't have to use it's effect all the time and that's excatly what makes him threatening for you opponent: he never knows how or IF to prepare for him.
    A nice trick would also be to bounce a creature via Stingscourger EOT and then let your opp discard his hand at the next upkeep.
    Mountain Caverns, Lackey, Go.

    If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.

  16. #16
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Sensation Gorger is pretty awesome in that with him in play you are basically drawing 5 cards a turn (4 from him, and 1 in your Draw step). Unfortunately he's also pretty expensive at 3cc, he doesn't contribute much on offense, has a pretty small butt so he's very burnable, his ability doesn't always work (I'm not adding Top for him), and he needs to be in play at the beginning of your upkeep, so he's pretty slow too. But the worst part is that he lets your opponent draw 4 new cards which greatly increases their chances of drawing their E Plague or Moat or that Propaganda they boarded in. Also, considering so much of Goblins' game is mana denial it seems that letting your opponent draw extra lands messes up your own strategy. Bottom line - Goblins has enough ways to draw cards without letting our opponent do the same. We don't need Sensation Gorger.

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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    I think you might wanna add: Bloodmark Mentor. I think that he was already discussed in the old threat. He's a pretty good tutor target vs Merfolk and Elves (and maybe even the mirror).

    While we are brainstorming about Sensation Gorger... he has pretty neat synergy with Countryside Crusher.

  18. #18
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Good job and thank to the new primer :)
    But small critics ^^
    -Id like to have 3 sample goblin lists there, too. A monoR, RG, RB Version. Also it would be nice to have a short introduction to the pro and cons of the different splashes.
    -The explanaition of WarrenWeirding is a little bit to negative imo, maybe you add the biggest pro. (kills emrakul, progenitus Iona and other tough creatures)
    -I found PlanarVoid always a good gh sb option for b splash. It completely shuts down every graveyard interaction, including goyf, its fast and can quickly be recast if bounced. Maybe you add that card :)
    -maybe some links to some of the card discussions we had, especially the whole combo sb stuff
    -no word about kikijiki vs sgc'? ^^
    -some iconic picture at the heading would pimp the primer :D
    Got tired of Legacy and you like drafts? Try my Paupercube What?

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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
    -Id like to have 3 sample goblin lists there, too. A monoR, RG, RB Version. Also it would be nice to have a short introduction to the pro and cons of the different splashes.
    My RB Goblins list


    // Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

    // Lands
    4 [R] Badlands
    4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
    4 [MPR] Wasteland
    4 [ON] Mountain (3)
    3 [MM] Rishadan Port
    2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
    1 [ALA] Swamp (3)

    // Creatures
    3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
    4 [US] Goblin Lackey
    4 [7E] Goblin Matron
    4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
    4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
    4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
    2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
    1 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
    1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    1 [LRW] Wort, Boggart Auntie
    1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
    4 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal

    // Spells
    4 [DS] AEther Vial
    2 [MOR] Warren Weirding

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
    SB: 3 [6E] Perish
    SB: 3 [AL] Pyrokinesis
    SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
    SB: 2 [ON] Patriarch's Bidding
    SB: 3 [US] Meltdown


    SB is in flux at all times, depending on the meta I'm playing at. Also about to attempt a s green splash to deal with enchantments in my local meta, since no major tourneys are coming up. I'll post my 3 color list after this weekend when we brainstorm it.

  20. #20
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0

    Id put winning lists in the primer, but tanks for sharing ;)

    but..

    well its kind of a new/old discussion, but i actually dont see any benefits for rb atm

    the only black card the deck usually runs is weirdings which got cut down to 2 or even 1 (stingscourger fits the same role often)
    than it has very few sb slots that are superior to non splashes (perish vs kinesis and black gyhate vs artifacts)

    that is paid with lifeloss (fetches) and a weaker manabase (stifles/wastelands, pop)

    green has at least the always useful disenchateffect

    but really, id run monoR atm, even if it hurts me alot, cuz i got my rb pimped out


    my standard red build.gobbo


    // Lands
    4 [MM] Rishadan Port
    14 [CS] Snow-Covered Mountain
    4 [TE] Wasteland

    // Creatures
    4 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
    3 [M11] Goblin Chieftain
    4 [V09] Goblin Lackey
    4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
    4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
    4 [EVG] Goblin Ringleader
    4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
    2 [M10] Siege-Gang Commander
    3 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
    2 [PLC] Stingscourger

    // Spells
    4 [V10] AEther Vial

    // Sideboard
    SB: 2 [HOP] Relic of Progenitus
    SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
    SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
    SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
    SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
    SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
    SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
    Got tired of Legacy and you like drafts? Try my Paupercube What?

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