Miracle Control

Just got top 8 in a (30man) legacy tourney.

R1: shardless bug. G1: helm kill, G2: get stomped by double hymn, G3: blood moon
R2: hive mind. G1: counterbalance top turn 2. G2: mull to 5, eventually run out of counters and lose. G3: naked counterbalance gets there until I find a jace and win.
R3: Pox. G1: get owned by nether void. G2: Needle on cursed scroll, jace fateseals while getting beat down by a factory, eventually find swords. G3: needle on a ticking liliana, land jace, and then elspeth.
R4: shardless bug. ID
R5: D&T. ID

Top 8 @ 4th seed.
against the shardless bug from R4:
Game 1: both mull to 6. I keep a pierce, land, fetch, RIP, swords, fetch.
I draw into another pierce and pierce 2 brainstorms attempts. On his 3rd turn, shardless -> visions.
I keep terminusing away his dudes, but he's got so many cards.
I try to go for helm kill but he has the abrupt decay.

Game 2: Mull to top, island, fetch, fetch, terminus, terminus.
Draw into my 3rd terminus.. by the time I find a brainstorm, a hymn has already stripped 2 of my terminus away. I eventually just die to his card adv and 2/2 beats.

Definitely should have put 3x leyline of sanctity in my board as I faced 3/4 hymn to tourach decks.
I am not sure what to cut tho.
My SB for reference:

2x REB
2x Meddling Mage
2x Celestial Purge
1x V Clique (1 MB as well)
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Pithing Needle
1x Counterspell
1x Wear//Tear
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Counterbalance (2 MB)

Any tips against the shardless BUG matchup? I just feel like I'm behind all the time. I probably should have mulled more but I wasn't comfortable going down even further against them.
Blood Moon is big game but you don't always get it.

Why are ya runnin REBs when Pyroblast is the agreed-upon optimal choice according to the legacy community by-and-large, afaik.

-ABC

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Why are ya runnin REBs when Pyroblast is the agreed-upon optimal choice according to the legacy community by-and-large, afaik.

-ABC

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Considering we are not trying to up a storm count, fill the graveyard for lavamancer, or grow a goyf, I don't think it really matters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Why are ya runnin REBs when Pyroblast is the agreed-upon optimal choice according to the legacy community by-and-large, afaik.

-ABC

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Because the main reason that a deck wants to run Pyroblast over REB is that they are a deck full of big green dudes and want to be able to shoot a Phantasmal Image that copies one. Since Phantasmal Image doesn't have any good non-Blue targets in our deck, it doesn't matter. I can't really think if REB actually has any upside either though (other than having better art and coming in Beta).

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

On Carstens List which can be found here: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...my-Of-God.html


I am really skeptical that this attempt can work well. He and Levy are both playing a fucking low amount of lands. While the one plays additional cantrips Carsten features Tithe, which is a great card I didn't have on the radar to be honest. But playing with 3 Swords 1 EE and 1 Sphere can't be right for a controldeck. A friend of mine once said something along this lines:"Angels? Ah great card, still dies to Flusterstorm!" - and this is just right. Angels for 10? Well I'll just Brainstorm/Bolt/whatever in response and Flusterstorm that. Nice ressources. In short: I don't think that the comboattempt can really work - Engineered Explosives is still card too! But nonetheless I will give this list a try simply due to him being a good deckbuilder, even though I think that this "change" is definitely no clear and obvious "improvement". What are you thoughts on this attempt?

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I agree with this. I'm a little curious why going the Entreat route is better than RIP/Helm. Sure you could say that RIP/Helm is a two card combo compared to one, but Entreat has a lot of requirements to make it the one card combo that it aspires to be. (the big two being requiring a whole lot of lands in play and having to actually use the attack step) I think Tithe would make a potentially nice 1-of, but I can't really see shaving three lands for them either. Terminus into Jace certainly seems a lot more intuitive at first glance than Entreat into Jace.

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Originally Posted by Aetherick

Definitely should have put 3x leyline of sanctity in my board as I faced 3/4 hymn to tourach decks.
I am not sure what to cut tho.
My SB for reference:

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As to your SB, I really would just run whatever Joe/Oarsman is running. People on this thread had the discussion regarding sanctity and misdirection, I agree with Joe/Oarsman, Misdirection is better. I much rather SB-in that to fight Hymn, as suppose to sanctity. The bonus from burn by using sanctity isn't that great.

If you really want to defeat BUG, Mirran Crusader is also a good choice.

Carsten's attempt is really interesting.

However my concern is this: Beating control (the mirror) is not the same as beating combo. The best way to beat combo is to overload on permission with a bit of a clock (Clique, SCM, Venser).
However the best way, also the least time consuming way, to beat control is to overload on (having a lot of) hard to deal with threats.
E.g. How good is EtA in the mirror and how good is it against Storm?
Counterbalance could be an exception here, as it counts as a threat, but then again, it is time consuming, and sometimes they can get through (EE, Abrupt Decay, instant speed shenanigans).

That being said, I think it makes more sense to focus on beating creature decks and control than beating control and combo (but having a reasonable game 1 against combo and good game 2). Again: I think beating creature decks and control is more overlapping than combo and control (Think of Elspeth, EE, Venser, EtA, etc.).

Not only that: With Terminus you have access to such a strong tool to beat creature decks, but you only put it in the side.

I think the Entreat the Angels kill is very good, and in my opinion much better than RIP/Helm, simply because it is one card combo and the power of RiP/Helm really depends on how good RIP is, but RIP is only gravehate at the end of the day.

Moat: Doesn't Moat fulfill the same role as Terminus? I would straight out replace Moat with Terminus.

How does that matter? You can misdirect the REB to Misdirection itself to get it "countered".

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Originally Posted by Viridia

How does that matter? You can misdirect the REB to Misdirection itself to get it "countered".

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But what if the REB is targeting a Delver? It says "destroy", you can't let the REB "destroy" the Misdirection.

Greetings

AH right yes, that was the catch. My bad.

...and therefore still a relevant point; I only brought it up because I used to play only storm and know the reasons. It is my opinion that Pyroblasts should be first in line.

-ABC

I've been playing hundreds of hundreds of games with UWr Miracle during the last year(s), always featuring atleast 2 REB-effects in the sideboard. Most of the time I split them. Though not always. In this large amount of games (probably serveral thousands of matches - irl testing / cocka / tournaments) one (!) single time it was important to have a split, it was vs a combodeck using Cabal Therapy. So I think if you want to be on the safe side, split. If you just don't care - take REB, as it has the better artwork and can be pimped more easily :D

Greetings

The modal argument is interesting. I'm so used to using REB to counter that I hadn't thought about its Destroy mode in relation to Misdirection. Still pretty corner, but it actually might be relevant against something like Hivemind or Omniscience.

But of course, at the end of the day here's the real argument...

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

If you just don't care - take REB, as it has the better artwork and can be pimped more easily :D

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;)

why are so few people playing celestial purge sideboard? has it been tested and deemed not good enough or what?

also is there anything I should know about regarding Misdirection while having Leyline of Sanctity in play?

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Originally Posted by drocker23

why are so few people playing celestial purge sideboard? has it been tested and deemed not good enough or what?

also is there anything I should know about regarding Misdirection while having Leyline of Sanctity in play?

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Not sure? I've tested purge and have been very happy with it, would not go below two in my current build of RIP Miracles for the typical SCG metagame at least.

While I'm not a huge fan of either Misdirection or Leyline, you can't be targeted if you have a Leyline, so I don't know what you would be misdirecting? you can't make something target yourself I guess?

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

Not sure? I've tested purge and have been very happy with it, would not go below two in my current build of RIP Miracles for the typical SCG metagame at least.

While I'm not a huge fan of either Misdirection or Leyline, you can't be targeted if you have a Leyline, so I don't know what you would be misdirecting? you can't make something target yourself I guess?

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both leyline (white) 3x and c.purge 2x is the way to go. you can cut down to 1 purge if you are feeling frisky, but 2 has been good for me.

drocker23, I have never tried Celestial Purge. Maybe it is good, but I have my doubts. It is important to remember that everyone plays differently and the other cards in any sideboard will affect how valuable another card might be. Off the top of my head, I have two concerns.

It does not come in against a lot of decks. And when it does come in, I wonder about its impact on games. Against Jund it hits Deathrite Shaman (which already gets hit by a ton of cards), Liliana (dangerous, but only early), and Chains of Mephistopheles (a very scary card). BUG adds Creeping Tar Pit to the list. Killing that is difficult and important.

I want my opponents to be scared of me drawing sideboard cards. You can't always have that, but Celestial Purge doesn't even come close. Still, Liliana does need to be dealt with at some point. If you choose not to run enough creatures to threaten it, I could imagine running Purge.


Your other question about Leyline and Misdirection: they overlap. A Leyline on the board certainly reduces the value of a Misdirection in hand. It will only hit removal at that point. They cannot target you with discard and you cannot steal an Ancestrall Visions.


EDIT: I forgot about Dark Confidant. That's what I get for only spending a few minutes considering a question. I guess Celestial Purge has a bigger impact than I was thinking when I wrote the above.

here is my current list. I really need any last minute tweaks or suggestions as I am going to be playing Miracles in the upcoming SCG open series in Nashville. If you are going to be there come say Hi to me! I'll be the guy wearing a suit T shirt and playing snow-covered basics! lol

2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mystic Gate
2 Scalding Tarn
5 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Pierce
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus

Sideboard:
2 Celestial Purge
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sulfur Elemental

Taking thoughts and tweaks on both the main and/or sideboard for this tournament.

After a quick glance at the list, I see two issues with your manabase. Anything else I could say is debatable and based on choices and preferences, but these observations are pretty firm.

One: You have no natural protection from Choke. I would highly recommend at least one, and possibly a pair of non-island dual lands. I prefer Mystic Gate, but Glacial Fortress is very similar. To make room I would cut a fetch, a Tundra, or both.

Two: There is only a single red source. This is fine as long as you don't overboard. Specifically, I would not bring in all three of your REB/Pyroblasts against a deck with Wastelands. It is too easy to cast one Blast and then get wasted, leaving you unable to cast any others you might draw. If you think you might want all your Blasts against a Wasteland deck, then I think you need a second Volcanic Island.




Also, you forgot to write in Force of Will. I count 56 cards, so I assume you are running four.

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Originally Posted by oarsman

After a quick glance at the list, I see two issues with your manabase. Anything else I could say is debatable and based on choices and preferences, but these observations are pretty firm.

One: You have no natural protection from Choke. I would highly recommend at least one, and possibly a pair of non-island dual lands. I prefer Mystic Gate, but Glacial Fortress is very similar. To make room I would cut a fetch, a Tundra, or both.

Two: There is only a single red source. This is fine as long as you don't overboard. Specifically, I would not bring in all three of your REB/Pyroblasts against a deck with Wastelands. It is too easy to cast one Blast and then get wasted, leaving you unable to cast any others you might draw. If you think you might want all your Blasts against a Wasteland deck, then I think you need a second Volcanic Island.




Also, you forgot to write in Force of Will. I count 56 cards, so I assume you are running four.

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so cut a fetch for a mystic gate, and a tundra for volcanic island? and yes i did forget to write force of will...changing it now

It seems a little low to only be playing 2 non-Jace win conditions. I realize that you have Snapcaster and Clique, but they both tend to get traded off aggressively. Entreat or Elspeth seem to be the common third win condition if one is played. There's some good players like Joe who only play 2 but I've played against Miracles plenty of times where they'll be searching for something to do and I can kill them before they find it.

As a possible cut - what does Snapcaster actually do for you? I know Joe has moved away from them and it seems like most people that have played miracles a lot think the body is fairly irrelevant in this deck.

I thought Snapcaster was very good in the past. It is nice to have more 2-drops for Counterbalance, and they are good against combo decks. The problem is RIP and Deathrite Shaman shutting them down. Against Jund and BUG you have to assume they won't be able to do anything after boarding.

If you are used to playing with Snapcasters then keeping them in is probably wise. But there are definitely options. Good luck man. I wish I had an SCG event in my area this weekend (or really anytime before October...sigh).

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Originally Posted by oarsman

I thought Snapcaster was very good in the past. It is nice to have more 2-drops for Counterbalance, and they are good against combo decks. The problem is RIP and Deathrite Shaman shutting them down. Against Jund and BUG you have to assume they won't be able to do anything after boarding.

If you are used to playing with Snapcasters then keeping them in is probably wise. But there are definitely options. Good luck man. I wish I had an SCG event in my area this weekend (or really anytime before October...sigh).

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don't forget. snapcaster can flash down in response to a deathrite activation. so if they are fearing snapcaster that means they aren't using their deathrite shaman which means i'm in pretty good shape. there are plenty of matchups where snapcaster is still good, and in the worst case scenario he is a flash in blocker. i am currently considering taking out the celestial purges and running 1pithing needle and 1 engineered explosives instead because they both deal with liliana but in a different way, and they work better with my tutor board. although, celestial purge is an instant which works well with snapcaster and i don't have to worry about it dying to abrupt decay. decisions, decisions, decisions!!

http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/49964

Any thoughts on Raphael Levy's deck from Strasbourg? I know European players are big on Elspeth, but 4x Ponder? I imagine at least the Elspeth maindeck are clutch against GBx. Makes me wonder why people are using Venser to tackle the matchup.

I've ran 4x Brainstorm and 3x Ponder in Tempo decks, but it seems interesting to push it in a Control shell. It sort of looks to me like he just recently cut Stoneforge from this list and that's why it looks off.

Hello,

So I have an "important" tournament coming up this weekend. I've been playing Miracles on and off (mostly on, though) for quite a long time now; specifically the version running flash creatures. However, due to some underwhelming (not devastating, but still...) I'm considering the switch to the RIP Helm version. However, I can't help but wonder whether the combo makes it more clunky. RIP is awesome in many matchups, but flash creatures have a much wider degree of usefulness.

I am more comfortable playing flash dudes, have much more games under my belt, but I admire how you can just go E.Tutor => bullet and shut some decks down; and the Oops I win factor is always appreciated.

Anyhow, these are the lists I'm considering, any tips are appreciated:

//NAME: UW Sanctuary Control
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Terminus
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
2 Energy Field
3 Rest in Peace
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
2 Karakas
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
6 Snow-covered Island
2 Snow-covered Plains
3 Tundra
//Sideboard
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Venser, Shaper Savant

Note: I REALLY like the sideboard; but I think the MD is a bit light on winning conditions, and I'd HATE to go to time (I misplay more when spectators are around).

Regular Miracles:

3 Tundra
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
1 Karakas
5 Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn

2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Misdirection

Sideboard
SB: 2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 ???

For the last 2 cards I'm considering Flusterstorm, the 4th Counterbalance, a 2nd Misdiretion, Celestial Purge, a 2nd Engineered Explosives.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by oarsman

drocker23, I have never tried Celestial Purge. Maybe it is good, but I have my doubts. It is important to remember that everyone plays differently and the other cards in any sideboard will affect how valuable another card might be. Off the top of my head, I have two concerns.

It does not come in against a lot of decks. And when it does come in, I wonder about its impact on games. Against Jund it hits Deathrite Shaman (which already gets hit by a ton of cards), Liliana (dangerous, but only early), and Chains of Mephistopheles (a very scary card). BUG adds Creeping Tar Pit to the list. Killing that is difficult and important.

I want my opponents to be scared of me drawing sideboard cards. You can't always have that, but Celestial Purge doesn't even come close. Still, Liliana does need to be dealt with at some point. If you choose not to run enough creatures to threaten it, I could imagine running Purge.


Your other question about Leyline and Misdirection: they overlap. A Leyline on the board certainly reduces the value of a Misdirection in hand. It will only hit removal at that point. They cannot target you with discard and you cannot steal an Ancestrall Visions.


EDIT: I forgot about Dark Confidant. That's what I get for only spending a few minutes considering a question. I guess Celestial Purge has a bigger impact than I was thinking when I wrote the above.

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it also cacks sulfuric vortex and tezzeret (less common but can be problematic)

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Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master

Hello,

So I have an "important" tournament coming up this weekend. I've been playing Miracles on and off (mostly on, though) for quite a long time now; specifically the version running flash creatures. However, due to some underwhelming (not devastating, but still...) I'm considering the switch to the RIP Helm version. However, I can't help but wonder whether the combo makes it more clunky. RIP is awesome in many matchups, but flash creatures have a much wider degree of usefulness.

I am more comfortable playing flash dudes, have much more games under my belt, but I admire how you can just go E.Tutor => bullet and shut some decks down; and the Oops I win factor is always appreciated.

Anyhow, these are the lists I'm considering, any tips are appreciated:

//NAME: UW Sanctuary Control
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Terminus
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
2 Energy Field
3 Rest in Peace
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
2 Karakas
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
6 Snow-covered Island
2 Snow-covered Plains
3 Tundra
//Sideboard
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Venser, Shaper Savant

Note: I REALLY like the sideboard; but I think the MD is a bit light on winning conditions, and I'd HATE to go to time (I misplay more when spectators are around).

Regular Miracles:

3 Tundra
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
1 Karakas
5 Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Volcanic Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn

2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Misdirection

Sideboard
SB: 2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 1 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 ???

For the last 2 cards I'm considering Flusterstorm, the 4th Counterbalance, a 2nd Misdiretion, Celestial Purge, a 2nd Engineered Explosives.

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a couple things i would like to address here.
1) play whichever version you are more comfortable with. this will decrease the chances of you making mistakes
2) personally, i feel that the flashy dude version is better because abrupt decay hurts the RIP/Helm version so bad.
3) why Timely Reinforcements and while i am at it, why Wurmcoil Engine?
4) why are people playing EE over Supreme Verdict in the main now?
5) i feel like E. Tutor out of the board is perfectly acceptable. i would reconsider a couple of your board choices and try out the E. Tutor in the sideboard and see how you like it.

While there's a lot of merit to "playing what you know," I really don't see there being so much difference between RIP Miracles and straight Miracles that you would have any trouble adjusting. I'm not sure why drocker thinks that RIP is bad against Abrupt Decay decks. Abrupt Decay decks, without fail, are running Tarmogoyf and Deathrite Shaman. Both are worse than awful with RIP on the field. Even if they Abrupt Decay your RIP, you've nuked their GY for at least a few turns. It's not like Abrupt Decay doesn't hit Vendillion Clique and Snapcaster Mage also.

As far as your actual build goes, I would cut the second Counterspell and the second Energy Field. Many RIP builds run some combination of 2-3 Vendillion Cliques and Venser. I'd use those two new slots for that. That (plus cutting the Wurmcoil and Timely Reinforcements) opens up several slots in your SB for things like Celestial Purge, REB, Pithing Needle, etc.

As far as playing the RIP version, most of the time you'll be Enlightened Tutoring for a Top. Next will probably be Tutoring for a combo piece. Occasionally you'll Tutor for a Counterbalance in say the mirror or against combo, and sometimes you'll Tutor to set up an important Counterbalance hit. Other than that, it plays almost exactly like normal Miracles. You just have more ways to screw graveyard-reliant creatures.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dzra

While there's a lot of merit to "playing what you know," I really don't see there being so much difference between RIP Miracles and straight Miracles that you would have any trouble adjusting. I'm not sure why drocker thinks that RIP is bad against Abrupt Decay decks. Abrupt Decay decks, without fail, are running Tarmogoyf and Deathrite Shaman. Both are worse than awful with RIP on the field. Even if they Abrupt Decay your RIP, you've nuked their GY for at least a few turns. It's not like Abrupt Decay doesn't hit Vendillion Clique and Snapcaster Mage also.

As far as your actual build goes, I would cut the second Counterspell and the second Energy Field. Many RIP builds run some combination of 2-3 Vendillion Cliques and Venser. I'd use those two new slots for that. That (plus cutting the Wurmcoil and Timely Reinforcements) opens up several slots in your SB for things like Celestial Purge, REB, Pithing Needle, etc.


As far as playing the RIP version, most of the time you'll be Enlightened Tutoring for a Top. Next will probably be Tutoring for a combo piece. Occasionally you'll Tutor for a Counterbalance in say the mirror or against combo, and sometimes you'll Tutor to set up an important Counterbalance hit. Other than that, it plays almost exactly like normal Miracles. You just have more ways to screw graveyard-reliant creatures.

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i know this because i have tested with the RIP/Helm version against abrupt decay decks over and over and over. also, most of your comments about how you are expected to use enlightened tutor properly, are wrong. so we'll just disregard that part of your comment.

now what this guy did say about rest in peace hosing graveyard based creatures is true. here's what he didn't tell you:

1) when playing against bug, abrupt decay hurts even more because not only does it blow up your cards intended to stall the board, they have their own counterspells too. which not only allows them to foil your cards you are using to try and stall, but also helps guarantee their threats actually hit play. against non-blue decks that run abrupt decay, it's a lot easier to control the board and land your stall tactic cards because you can save your counters for threats that are tough to deal with like liliana's and such. what a major issue is in this matchup is the fact that your counterspells don't buy you the kind of time you need to, because instead of countering a few things to make the gap between you and your opponent bigger, you are forced to fight over key spells which puts you at an even greater disadvantage mainly because of their hand hate and also since they are the proactive beatdown deck against you. they simply have more threats against you than you have against them. and that is why they win. because they have an uncounterable answer to your 'stall the board' tactics.

2) the RIP version although very interesting, is also not as good mostly due to a plethora of hand hate in the format. while hymns and thoughtseizes are tearing your hand apart, you're drawing less business spells off the top of your library because of the spots required to play the helm combo. in order to fit this combo into your deck you have to cut business cards like removal, creatures, and counters to implement the strategy thusly making not only your consistancy weaker but also you're going to be drawing more copies of spells like rest in peace or weak cards like detention sphere in order to try and pull you out of a rut. these cards are not capable of that. flash blockers can sometimes make trades or allow you to replay key spells out of your graveyard to start swinging the game back into your favor. also our creatures can provide a quick clock once their hand is finally empty. a clock that is generally faster than jace or rip/helm.

3) as diverse as decks like bug, jund, and junk are with their spells and their spell types, it is not difficult for them to make tarmogoyf at least a 3/4 again after abrupt decaying a rest in peace. what we want to do against these decks are to play fewer cards that are affected by abrupt decay (yes your creatures are vulnerable too, but at least they all have come into play effects that will serve their purpose before going to the graveyard) and play more spells like spell pierce and counterspell that we can trade with their hand hate spells so that we can protect our hands better. by also running more copies of less spells, we keep the deck more consistant which is important vs. hand hating decks instead of trying to win the game off a bunch of random 1 of's. enlightened tutor is card disadvantage also which is important to think about vs those kind of decks also.

seen that someone is taking the RiPHelm rout, you may want to consider this list: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ntrol-RiP_Helm

it solves many problems of the deck using Sterling Grove (Abrupt Decay, Krosan Grip, Qasali Pridemage, anything)
The only "common" card we fear is Pernicious Deed (2-3 Pithing Needle and 3 Stifle in the 75 + many counters)

If should someone take the enchantments route, I ask you to consider (and advice me about) that list.

Thank you

p.s. the little green splash gives us Carpet of Flowers and Determined in SB.
Eventually even a couple of Krosan Grips for opposing CounterTops

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Originally Posted by drocker23

also, most of your comments about how you are expected to use enlightened tutor properly, are wrong. so we'll just disregard that part of your comment.

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Why don't you... enlighten... me on how I should be using E Tutor then? har har But really, what I've said strikes me as fairly basic and I'm curious what you think I've said wrongly.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

when playing against bug, abrupt decay hurts even more because not only does it blow up your cards intended to stall the board, they have their own counterspells too. which not only allows them to foil your cards you are using to try and stall, but also helps guarantee their threats actually hit play.

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The latest (and probably best) version of BUG right now is Shardless, which tends to run 3 FoW main deck. They will do everything in their power not to have to cast them, and will likely be the first cards to board out against us.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

what a major issue is in this matchup is the fact that your counterspells don't buy you the kind of time you need to

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This is true.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

because instead of countering a few things to make the gap between you and your opponent bigger, you are forced to fight over key spells which puts you at an even greater disadvantage mainly because of their hand hate and also since they are the proactive beatdown deck against you.

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Counterbalance decks are used to being the control deck. Normally, Counterbalance creates such a disparity in card advantage that the longer the game goes with Counterbalance/Top on the field, the more in the driver's seat we are. Abrupt Decay doesn't allow that. The key to GBx matchups is essentially to kill them before their worse but more reliable card advantage overtakes us.

A big Entreat the Angels at the end of their turn is the best way to do this. RIP/Helm is also a good way to go about this. RIP isn't just a 'stall the board' tactic. It stalls the board yes, but if left on the field for too long; it will just win you the game out of nowhere.

In most BUG verses Miracles games, BUG isn't the beatdown and if you've let them assume the beatdown by taking the defensive route then you've essentially rolled over on your back. Just because they have more creatures at their disposal doesn't mean we are shooting for the long game.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

while hymns and thoughtseizes are tearing your hand apart, you're drawing less business spells off the top of your library because of the spots required to play the helm combo.

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One of the better counters for hand disruption is Sensei's Divining Top. In RIP/Helm, you are running a 2 more virtual copies. And I don't know about you, but if everyone is in topdeck mode, I would rather be the one playing the deck that has "I win the game now" as one of my topdecks.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

also our creatures can provide a quick clock once their hand is finally empty. a clock that is generally faster than jace or rip/helm.

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Without RIP/Helm, your options are basically hope to race them with Clique, find an Entreat, or stick a Counterbalance long enough for Jace to do some work.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

by also running more copies of less spells, we keep the deck more consistant which is important vs. hand hating decks instead of trying to win the game off a bunch of random 1 of's. enlightened tutor is card disadvantage also which is important to think about vs those kind of decks also.

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Unless you have a Leyline of Sanctity sitting in play, you had best resign yourself to not having too much of a hand against Hymn decks. Not having a hand, you had best hope that you have a Top and/or a way to close the game very quickly. Enlightened Tutor might be card disadvantage, but it is amazingly resilient to discard (and most likely whatever you are tutoring for will either win you the game or work towards negating the card you lost).

Now all of this said, I don't think that it is clearcut that RIP is necessarily better against GBx decks than normal Miracles. There are definitely advantages to both. My point is that it is silly and hasty to dismiss it as being bad simply because Rest in Peace is one of 100 legacy staples that can be targeted by Abrupt Decay.

if Abrupt Decay is such a problem and you don't want to splash green, why don't you play more Misdirections?

BUG is tough for both versions of the deck. I think the key is defending your hand to make enough land drops for Things such as Entreat, Moat, Humility, Elspeth, or a miser Blood moon when they tapout. Misdirection and spell pierce do a lot of work early game to keep you from falling behind or if you choose to go the leyline turn zero and forget about it route you can safe your counters for bombs.

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Originally Posted by Jayman

BUG is tough for both versions of the deck. I think the key is defending your hand to make enough land drops for Things such as Entreat, Moat, Humility, Elspeth, or a miser Blood moon when they tapout. Misdirection and spell pierce do a lot of work early game to keep you from falling behind or if you choose to go the leyline turn zero and forget about it route you can safe your counters for bombs.

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this is true ^^

play more 4 drops like elspeth which do not care about abrupt decay. while they are cascading into ancestrals, you're just trying to find rip/helm and/or entreats.

may be I like too much that deck of mine but, again, a turn 0 Leyline of Sactity + a Sterling Grove just seal the match against BUG. That's our worst matchup to me btw

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Originally Posted by drocker23

a couple things i would like to address here.
1) play whichever version you are more comfortable with. this will decrease the chances of you making mistakes
2) personally, i feel that the flashy dude version is better because abrupt decay hurts the RIP/Helm version so bad.
3) why Timely Reinforcements and while i am at it, why Wurmcoil Engine?
4) why are people playing EE over Supreme Verdict in the main now?
5) i feel like E. Tutor out of the board is perfectly acceptable. i would reconsider a couple of your board choices and try out the E. Tutor in the sideboard and see how you like it.

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1) Fair enough.

3) I expect quite a lot of Burn, and last time I went on tilt due to Burn knocking me out of Top 8 contention (I was not playing Miracles); hence Timely seems useful (it also has utility against RUG, Jund, Zoo, etc). Wurmcoil is a bullet to BGx decks, specially Jund, since going E. Tutor => Wurmcoil puts a huge threat on the board that they must x for 1 themselves to get rid off.

4) I do not feel secure without the ability to wipe out random artifacts or enchantments, and I feel the need for "regular" wraths is already covered by Terminus. I could be wrong though.

5) You mean a singleton tutor out of the board? It might work...

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While there's a lot of merit to "playing what you know," I really don't see there being so much difference between RIP Miracles and straight Miracles that you would have any trouble adjusting. I'm not sure why drocker thinks that RIP is bad against Abrupt Decay decks. Abrupt Decay decks, without fail, are running Tarmogoyf and Deathrite Shaman. Both are worse than awful with RIP on the field. Even if they Abrupt Decay your RIP, you've nuked their GY for at least a few turns. It's not like Abrupt Decay doesn't hit Vendillion Clique and Snapcaster Mage also.

As far as your actual build goes, I would cut the second Counterspell and the second Energy Field. Many RIP builds run some combination of 2-3 Vendillion Cliques and Venser. I'd use those two new slots for that. That (plus cutting the Wurmcoil and Timely Reinforcements) opens up several slots in your SB for things like Celestial Purge, REB, Pithing Needle, etc.

As far as playing the RIP version, most of the time you'll be Enlightened Tutoring for a Top. Next will probably be Tutoring for a combo piece. Occasionally you'll Tutor for a Counterbalance in say the mirror or against combo, and sometimes you'll Tutor to set up an important Counterbalance hit. Other than that, it plays almost exactly like normal Miracles. You just have more ways to screw graveyard-reliant creatures.

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I'll agree they are not two completely different decks, but Enlightened Tutor adds a very large degree of variance which I'm not used to playing with.

There's a mistake on my RIP list, it should be just 1 Energy Field and 4 Swords.

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Originally Posted by sauce

this is true ^^

play more 4 drops like elspeth which do not care about abrupt decay. while they are cascading into ancestrals, you're just trying to find rip/helm and/or entreats.

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That's the problem. Eventually, you and BUG often end up top decking. Once they set-up cascade into ancestral, it's the worst feeling in the world, while you only have a top to show for.

For the guy who is siding wurmcoil. It is actually a decent plan against bgx. People used to to use Baneslayer for similar purposes but mostly to race. The question is do you want to give up evasion for a more resilient threat? Honestly I like the idea of a threat that requires 2 or more cards to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Jayman

For the guy who is siding wurmcoil. It is actually a decent plan against bgx. People used to to use Baneslayer for similar purposes but mostly to race. The question is do you want to give up evasion for a more resilient threat? Honestly I like the idea of a threat that requires 2 or more cards to deal with.

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Actually, I think the main upside of Wurmcoil vs. Baneslayer is being able to find it with E. Tutor. Finding Baneslayer, as a 1-off, in a reasonable time frame can be quite difficult.

so can we finalize a couple of lists here that we can all agree are the best versions of each list? RIP/Helm, Stoneblade Miracles, and Legendary Miracles including sideboards?

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Originally Posted by twndomn

That's the problem. Eventually, you and BUG often end up top decking. Once they set-up cascade into ancestral, it's the worst feeling in the world, while you only have a top to show for.

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sure, but once you set up the rip -> helm, its instant win instead of draw 3.