Just got top 8 in a (30man) legacy tourney.
R1: shardless bug. G1: helm kill, G2: get stomped by double hymn, G3: blood moon
R2: hive mind. G1: counterbalance top turn 2. G2: mull to 5, eventually run out of counters and lose. G3: naked counterbalance gets there until I find a jace and win.
R3: Pox. G1: get owned by nether void. G2: Needle on cursed scroll, jace fateseals while getting beat down by a factory, eventually find swords. G3: needle on a ticking liliana, land jace, and then elspeth.
R4: shardless bug. ID
R5: D&T. ID
Top 8 @ 4th seed.
against the shardless bug from R4:
Game 1: both mull to 6. I keep a pierce, land, fetch, RIP, swords, fetch.
I draw into another pierce and pierce 2 brainstorms attempts. On his 3rd turn, shardless -> visions.
I keep terminusing away his dudes, but he's got so many cards.
I try to go for helm kill but he has the abrupt decay.
Game 2: Mull to top, island, fetch, fetch, terminus, terminus.
Draw into my 3rd terminus.. by the time I find a brainstorm, a hymn has already stripped 2 of my terminus away. I eventually just die to his card adv and 2/2 beats.
Definitely should have put 3x leyline of sanctity in my board as I faced 3/4 hymn to tourach decks.
I am not sure what to cut tho.
My SB for reference:
2x REB
2x Meddling Mage
2x Celestial Purge
1x V Clique (1 MB as well)
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Pithing Needle
1x Counterspell
1x Wear//Tear
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Counterbalance (2 MB)
Any tips against the shardless BUG matchup? I just feel like I'm behind all the time. I probably should have mulled more but I wasn't comfortable going down even further against them.
Blood Moon is big game but you don't always get it.
Why are ya runnin REBs when Pyroblast is the agreed-upon optimal choice according to the legacy community by-and-large, afaik.
-ABC
Considering we are not trying to up a storm count, fill the graveyard for lavamancer, or grow a goyf, I don't think it really matters.Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Because the main reason that a deck wants to run Pyroblast over REB is that they are a deck full of big green dudes and want to be able to shoot a Phantasmal Image that copies one. Since Phantasmal Image doesn't have any good non-Blue targets in our deck, it doesn't matter. I can't really think if REB actually has any upside either though (other than having better art and coming in Beta).
I agree with this. I'm a little curious why going the Entreat route is better than RIP/Helm. Sure you could say that RIP/Helm is a two card combo compared to one, but Entreat has a lot of requirements to make it the one card combo that it aspires to be. (the big two being requiring a whole lot of lands in play and having to actually use the attack step) I think Tithe would make a potentially nice 1-of, but I can't really see shaving three lands for them either. Terminus into Jace certainly seems a lot more intuitive at first glance than Entreat into Jace.
As to your SB, I really would just run whatever Joe/Oarsman is running. People on this thread had the discussion regarding sanctity and misdirection, I agree with Joe/Oarsman, Misdirection is better. I much rather SB-in that to fight Hymn, as suppose to sanctity. The bonus from burn by using sanctity isn't that great.
If you really want to defeat BUG, Mirran Crusader is also a good choice.
Carsten's attempt is really interesting.
However my concern is this: Beating control (the mirror) is not the same as beating combo. The best way to beat combo is to overload on permission with a bit of a clock (Clique, SCM, Venser).
However the best way, also the least time consuming way, to beat control is to overload on (having a lot of) hard to deal with threats.
E.g. How good is EtA in the mirror and how good is it against Storm?
Counterbalance could be an exception here, as it counts as a threat, but then again, it is time consuming, and sometimes they can get through (EE, Abrupt Decay, instant speed shenanigans).
That being said, I think it makes more sense to focus on beating creature decks and control than beating control and combo (but having a reasonable game 1 against combo and good game 2). Again: I think beating creature decks and control is more overlapping than combo and control (Think of Elspeth, EE, Venser, EtA, etc.).
Not only that: With Terminus you have access to such a strong tool to beat creature decks, but you only put it in the side.
I think the Entreat the Angels kill is very good, and in my opinion much better than RIP/Helm, simply because it is one card combo and the power of RiP/Helm really depends on how good RIP is, but RIP is only gravehate at the end of the day.
Moat: Doesn't Moat fulfill the same role as Terminus? I would straight out replace Moat with Terminus.
Baneslayer Angel
a bullet renders all sizes equal
How does that matter? You can misdirect the REB to Misdirection itself to get it "countered".
AH right yes, that was the catch. My bad.
...and therefore still a relevant point; I only brought it up because I used to play only storm and know the reasons. It is my opinion that Pyroblasts should be first in line.
-ABC
I've been playing hundreds of hundreds of games with UWr Miracle during the last year(s), always featuring atleast 2 REB-effects in the sideboard. Most of the time I split them. Though not always. In this large amount of games (probably serveral thousands of matches - irl testing / cocka / tournaments) one (!) single time it was important to have a split, it was vs a combodeck using Cabal Therapy. So I think if you want to be on the safe side, split. If you just don't care - take REB, as it has the better artwork and can be pimped more easily :D
Greetings
The modal argument is interesting. I'm so used to using REB to counter that I hadn't thought about its Destroy mode in relation to Misdirection. Still pretty corner, but it actually might be relevant against something like Hivemind or Omniscience.
But of course, at the end of the day here's the real argument...
;)
why are so few people playing celestial purge sideboard? has it been tested and deemed not good enough or what?
also is there anything I should know about regarding Misdirection while having Leyline of Sanctity in play?
Not sure? I've tested purge and have been very happy with it, would not go below two in my current build of RIP Miracles for the typical SCG metagame at least.
While I'm not a huge fan of either Misdirection or Leyline, you can't be targeted if you have a Leyline, so I don't know what you would be misdirecting? you can't make something target yourself I guess?
both leyline (white) 3x and c.purge 2x is the way to go. you can cut down to 1 purge if you are feeling frisky, but 2 has been good for me.
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drocker23, I have never tried Celestial Purge. Maybe it is good, but I have my doubts. It is important to remember that everyone plays differently and the other cards in any sideboard will affect how valuable another card might be. Off the top of my head, I have two concerns.
It does not come in against a lot of decks. And when it does come in, I wonder about its impact on games. Against Jund it hits Deathrite Shaman (which already gets hit by a ton of cards), Liliana (dangerous, but only early), and Chains of Mephistopheles (a very scary card). BUG adds Creeping Tar Pit to the list. Killing that is difficult and important.
I want my opponents to be scared of me drawing sideboard cards. You can't always have that, but Celestial Purge doesn't even come close. Still, Liliana does need to be dealt with at some point. If you choose not to run enough creatures to threaten it, I could imagine running Purge.
Your other question about Leyline and Misdirection: they overlap. A Leyline on the board certainly reduces the value of a Misdirection in hand. It will only hit removal at that point. They cannot target you with discard and you cannot steal an Ancestrall Visions.
EDIT: I forgot about Dark Confidant. That's what I get for only spending a few minutes considering a question. I guess Celestial Purge has a bigger impact than I was thinking when I wrote the above.
here is my current list. I really need any last minute tweaks or suggestions as I am going to be playing Miracles in the upcoming SCG open series in Nashville. If you are going to be there come say Hi to me! I'll be the guy wearing a suit T shirt and playing snow-covered basics! lol
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mystic Gate
2 Scalding Tarn
5 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Pierce
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
Sideboard:
2 Celestial Purge
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Humility
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sulfur Elemental
Taking thoughts and tweaks on both the main and/or sideboard for this tournament.
After a quick glance at the list, I see two issues with your manabase. Anything else I could say is debatable and based on choices and preferences, but these observations are pretty firm.
One: You have no natural protection from Choke. I would highly recommend at least one, and possibly a pair of non-island dual lands. I prefer Mystic Gate, but Glacial Fortress is very similar. To make room I would cut a fetch, a Tundra, or both.
Two: There is only a single red source. This is fine as long as you don't overboard. Specifically, I would not bring in all three of your REB/Pyroblasts against a deck with Wastelands. It is too easy to cast one Blast and then get wasted, leaving you unable to cast any others you might draw. If you think you might want all your Blasts against a Wasteland deck, then I think you need a second Volcanic Island.
Also, you forgot to write in Force of Will. I count 56 cards, so I assume you are running four.
so cut a fetch for a mystic gate, and a tundra for volcanic island? and yes i did forget to write force of will...changing it now
It seems a little low to only be playing 2 non-Jace win conditions. I realize that you have Snapcaster and Clique, but they both tend to get traded off aggressively. Entreat or Elspeth seem to be the common third win condition if one is played. There's some good players like Joe who only play 2 but I've played against Miracles plenty of times where they'll be searching for something to do and I can kill them before they find it.
As a possible cut - what does Snapcaster actually do for you? I know Joe has moved away from them and it seems like most people that have played miracles a lot think the body is fairly irrelevant in this deck.
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