who's gonna say itQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
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who's gonna say itQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
*laughs in Brainstorm*Quote:
Originally Posted by Watersaw
I wanted too but the card in question was protected by a Twitter post from Aaron Forsythe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watersaw
Absolutely, I wasn't trying to be contentious. I just think WOTC has more culpability; they didn't release these as an honest mistake.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Former Player Employee: 'He guyz, we gotz something that does CaRazY stuff with LeD'.
WOTC: Annnnd...you're fired. Don't harsh on my big money buzz, buddy.
I am convinced of this as well. Gotta get those dollar bills, y'all.Quote:
Well, I agree, but knowledge and caring can be world apart. In fact, (I think it was) Barook already posted the article, from Wizards themselves, where they explicitly stated that a companion-like mechanic was horribly broken. So, what changed? I don't think it is knowledge...
Anyways, sorry if I came across as abrasive. Cheers!
If Brainstorm had never existed and they printed it yesterday, this argument would have more validity, to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Not at all, I was just trying to clarify my position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Even if we set Legacy aside, the release of Companions is a bad sign in general. I get that Wizards needs to constantly churn out exciting shit to sell sets, but new mechanics make me nervous, especially when they're even slightly comparable to Yu-Gi-Oh (and Companion is sort of like a super restrictive 1-card extra deck if you really think about it).Quote:
Originally Posted by H
Printing overpowered nonsense like W&6 is one thing but its still leagues better than printing overpowered mechanics.
Hellyes the Slayer 1R{w/g}
Legendary Creature — Horror Assassin 2/3
Companion: your starting deck has at least 18 blue instants and sorceries
You may cast nonblue instants and sorceries you own from outside the game.
{1}{X}, {T}: Create a token that’s a copy of a permanent card with converted mana cost X that is banned in Legacy.
Just being silly. Anyway, there was no way to anticipate how good Lurrus would be in Eternal, where cheap permanents tend not to be competitive and card advantage isn’t an issue.
Dies to bolt, too weak. Make it 2/4Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise
“Hellyes the Slayer can’t leave the battlefield if an opponent has cast a spell this turn.”Quote:
Originally Posted by Sella
Edit: nvm that’s maybe too good in Limited.
Needs less tap symbol, not nearly broken enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise
Obviously it should be X/X+1, where X is the number of card types in your graveyard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sella
Well, I pretty much agree. The issue is the velocity now is just so break-neck that there is no way, I think, to keep the release pace and always have well-designed cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sella
But, that is the paradigm, because you can't contract the number of new set/releases now, since you WotC is answerable to Hasbro and Hasbro is answerable to Wall Street. So, it's hyper-expansion or death, if you aren't growing, you are dying, as far as shareholders care. Frankly, I think all of this is a terrible long-term strategy, but what passes as a long-term strategy is probably just a few short-term ones stapled together.
Cerberus, Underworld Champion 1R
Legendary Creature - Zombie Hound
Companion - Your starting deck must contain no more than 8 creatures.
Whenever a player casts a spell, ~ becomes an enchantment, then sacrifice it at the beginning of the next end step.
3: You may cast target spell from your graveyard. This ability has Delve.
0/4
Seems like a fair card. Not even playable in Limited!
Mod note: let's try to keep silly card creation to the thread made for that please.
I'll compromise and accept X/X+4Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Honestly makes me hope that they can pivot hard into Arena, then they could just release their dumb shit there and keep it out of paper maybe. Although I guess that wouldn't work since they'd want people to buy their favorite Arena cards in paper. Oh well.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
All we need is just one dedicated guy at WoTC who can look over new cards and preemptively ban the stuff that's obviously broken. I don't play standard so I personally don't care how much dumb shit they shove in there, but it's annoying when something busted gets printed and then we have to wait X amount of months for WoTC to do something about it for like, 3 sets in a row.
So far:Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Innovation
41.9%
Balance
58.1%
Interesting comment, with a lot of people agreeing with it:
While I do believe in prioritization for certain things, the way that this question is posed is that it is a trade-off. I don't really believe in this trade off - they are on different axes.
And the ubiquitous maro answer to problems:
Come on, Ben. I know you know that balancing something with no precedent is harder than balancing something we’ve done five times before.
Which lead to the obvious answer:
I don't think it's that hard to see that starting with 8 cards is absolutely a problem.
Has anybody the link at hand from the WotC article from 2015 (?) where they tried something similiar and described exactly the problems that companion has now?Quote:
Originally Posted by jmlima
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
Thanks alot!
It does seem that he's presenting a false dichotomy for PR reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmlima
Of course, his job security depends on it.
And it doesn't even address the core problems of their current design philosophy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses
Even if they don't make stupid new mechanics that you can't really interact with before shit hits the fan (e.g. companion, energy) - there are still the cards left that are too extremely pushed to sell sets. That, in combination with the lack of proper, timely answers, is the straw that breaks the camel's back.
Cool poll Maro except it's literally your job to do both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
They apparently don't have resources to playtest Eternal formats... which in plain English means stable formats aren't profitable enough so they won't spend money testing them. Still, it's really not hard to do the following checks before printing a card:
1) Does this card let you repeatedly replay Black Lotus/Lion's Eye Diamond without exiling the card after?
2) Does this cheap planeswalker let you replay Strip Mine/Wasteland over and over and also manage the board?
These should be obvious red flags. Somehow Wrenn and Six, Underworld Breach and Lurrus of the Dream-Den still failed them.
I don’t even think you need to go that far on W&6, just ask “should Crucible cost 1 less, be harder to kill/target, and also threaten to end the game in 5 turns?”
Lurrus is the least egregious, and shows at least minimal insight as to how to separate anything like DRS from turn 1 dude into turn 2 play 1-card combo that wins game by itself (ex. Oko). A creature that says stop playing PWs is fine in my book.
Just ask if crucible was almost an entirely different cardQuote:
Originally Posted by Fox
In the eighteen years I've been familiar with MaRo's rhetoric, I've never seen him this duplicitous. Hopefully it means someone yelled at him or at the entire group about all of this shit the company has been printing recently.
To be fair, there wasn't widespread shouting that these cards needed to be banned until a while after their release, I follow the spoiler season carefully and listen to maybe a dozen podcasts. When W6 was banned after six months or so very few people actively supported an immediate ban (as I recall, I did fwiw), I remember feeling controversial when I wrote here before the announcement that it seemed like the first opportunity for WotC to ban the card without it seeming like they acted prematurely. It took a while until Brain Feeze was identified as an engine and wincon with Breach, and if that card didn't exist we might still have Breach around.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Anyway, whether these cards can be identified as banworthy at a concept stage or not, as long as bans are carried out swiftly, the damage to the format is minimal. It's when we need to regularly face these cards that 90% (random number) of players recognise as not suitable for this format that our interest in playing is reduced. I hope WotC keep up banning proactively, like with Breach. Edit: and I hope they step it up with respect to Oko and sadly Astrolabe, and Lurrus.
Edit: the Litmus tests you propose seem good.
Speaking of which, latest legacy prelim, Lurrus is as played as brainstorm and ponder (all at 66.67% of the decks). A minimum of 42.42% of the decks in the entire format plays lurrus (ranging from storm to delver(s), to WW...)Quote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
I thought it was even more. Now, it's possible that the format will adapt, but this seems like a card that will not be easy to balance. The Companion-restriction [edit: for Lurrus specifically] may be suitable for Standard and Pioneer, maybe Modern, but not for Legacy and probably not for Vintage. We should have this card banned now in order to avoid further damaging the format. And, I think with a more proactive approach to banning cards, it may be a good idea to reconsider unbanning cards in the future. I think this could be done in a community effort, similar to how Julian Knab ran the.. What's it called again, the Legacy Mediocre League? [edit: no, Legacy Unchained - https://itsjulian.com/legacy-unchained-week-1/] I forgot, last spring's Twitch tournament with Deathrite, Top and Survival unbanned.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmlima
Vintage is a wee bit different, Lurrus is only played in 81.25% of the decks in the latest challenge. Just after force with 87.50%.Quote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
Pillar of the format! /sarcasmQuote:
Originally Posted by jmlima
Even with Lurrus gone, there are still Zirda, Gyruda and probably Yorion at minimum that are going to be problematic. I sure can't sait for Bant/4C Snoko Yorion clusterfuck decks once Lurrus is gone. :rolleyes:
They should ban the companion mechanic from Constructed play (allowing you to run the cards normally) and throw in an Astrolabe + Oko ban as well. There, format fixed.
I don't mean to splice up your entire quote, much of what I agree with, but I remember the same day of Breach being spoiled that there was talk of brainfreeze being a good kill condition with the card. Just saying that Breach was dumb as shit and I think even without Brainfreeze existing it would've eventually gotten the axeQuote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
It’s perfectly ok you have a good point and you're probably right. I think I oversimplified my description of it which was based on a couple of observations hanging together loosely. As I recalled it took some little time between seeing the card and hearing of BF but maybe it was only less than a day, I thought it might have been a couple of days as I remember finding brain freezes for good prices for maybe a few days, indicating to me it took a while for it to catch on (not disagreeing here, just that this was my observation at the time that I probably reinterpreted wrongly now). Also I don't remember exactly but didn't decklists evolve for a while, I vaguely recall that but maybe what I really recall was all the different types of lists that were popping up.. Final observation and the more relevant one, as Breach was banned, Maverick actually seemed to be becoming a meta deck and if Breach decks were a bit weaker, such as without BF, I can see Maverick having had an even better edge there. It's hard to say how such a meta might have evolved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Am I the only one who thinks good cards are cool and that people should actually get the chance to play with them before deciding they should be banned? Because it'd be really cool to actually see these cards in person before they get the axe.
Underworld Breach and Wrenn and Six both got banned ludicrously quickly—and with judgment that can only be described as lacking. That's no better than waiting a decade to act on Miracles or waiting to act on Chalice of the Void until sometime never.
I agree that cards shouldn’t be banned without vetting by paper play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Breach and Wrenn were both poorly designed, and highlight the problems with the short-sighted banning of legacy’s GY police (DRS). Mistakes like these will keep getting out of control (ex. Hogaak, Uro, Sanctuary, Dreadhorde, Wrenn, Breach, Lurrus) the longer we go without the black 1-drop policeman. A fixed version of DRS is likely in order since the mana acceleration leads either to Hymn/Snapcaster exploits or 1-card combo that wins game by itself (Oko). Either he only gets to make a mana of the color/type of the land he exiles, or do something interesting like exile a non-creature or non-instant/sorcery to gain either first strike (anti-Snapcaster) or deathtouch (anti-Goyf).
Breach is on a different level than the others though, that pushed out every fair deck way quicker that DTT OmniTell ever could.
I got burned by the breach ban. It was my fault, I knew it was bannable. Grinding station was another engine for breach.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
W6 was a good ban, which I did not get got by because like pettdan, I knew it was bannable before the release date just like with breach.
I agree that miracles needed a banning on terminus BEFORE Oko, Astrolabe and uro, and now its looking like Lurrus and Yorion (all are in some version of a winning miracles decklist). I think the name Miracles is damned ironic for the decklist. Anyway, its name should really be "Miracles Never Cease" now that they have Mystic Sanctuary, also.
Chalice is fine. You can combo turn 2, maybe turn 1 *TO WIN THE GAME* in this format right now without ever casting something that costs 1. It is fine.
If they outright ban Lurrus of the Dream Den, I will be really frustrated. If they ban the Companion mechanic, I will also be really frustrated. Yorion isn't good if there is no Companion mechanic, but if Companion is allowed to stay, Lurrus and Zirda and possibly others remain detrimental to the formats they are effective in.
TL;DR - I prefer balanced design over reactive environment. Companion could have been balanced, and Lurrus was busted without it.
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